The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...

Posted By: Rick H

The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/28/08 05:39 PM

The belief of "Sinless Perfection"...


I want to prepare this discusson on the belief of "Sinless Perfection" with a description of what is meant by "Sinless Perfection" as many think it is a 'sinless' life which it is not as scripture makes clear.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So this is not a discussion on 'sinlessness' per se as one can sin yet still reach this state of 'perfection'. It is a state or level that is reached with divine help in which we no longer sin or desire to sin, so lets start with the definition of the building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.


Now keep in mind that as the Fundamental Beliefs have the following:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

...Ellen White's writings are not a external source to the argument, but well within the realm of it as those who accept its source as the Spirit of Prophecy cannot be denied its use in this discussion.
Posted By: Darius

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/28/08 06:56 PM

You need to first define what sin is. Is it sin to violate any of the laws that God has put in place? Too often sin has been reduced to what we do not like or approve of.
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/28/08 10:35 PM

Sin is a broken relationship with God, a seperation from God that much like in humans is caused by a transgression against His love.

A child reaches out to touch a hot stove, we seeing the potential danger explain to the child the dangers, so is the explanation given, a law of what we do not like or a law of out of love....?
Posted By: Darius

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/28/08 11:23 PM

What do you mean by "broken" relationship?
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/29/08 01:28 AM

Ask anyone that has had a philandering husband or wife, and they will give you a better explanation than I ever could....
Posted By: Darius

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/29/08 05:57 PM

Is that the only thing that results in a "broken" relationship?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/29/08 08:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: Richard
when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

Though I have seen some evidence in support of this, I'm not ready to say that the desire to sin entirely disappears. Here are texts:
 Quote:
"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." (Galatians 5:17)

From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done. There is wrestling with inbred sin; there is warfare against outward wrong. {RH, November 29, 1887 par. 12}
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/29/08 08:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: asygo
 Originally Posted By: Richard
when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

Though I have seen some evidence in support of this, I'm not ready to say that the desire to sin entirely disappears. Here are texts:
 Quote:
"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." (Galatians 5:17)

From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done. There is wrestling with inbred sin; there is warfare against outward wrong. {RH, November 29, 1887 par. 12}


How do you then see Romans 6...

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Romans 6:1-15
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/29/08 10:05 PM

I am surprised that neither Tom Ewall nor Mountain Man haven't yet entered into this discussion topic.
Posted By: Tom

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/29/08 11:14 PM

I thought I felt my ear itch.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/30/08 03:31 AM

Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/30/08 07:10 AM

 Originally Posted By: Richard
How do you then see Romans 6...

I see a clear promise of victory over sin, but not a promise of lack of desire to sin.
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/30/08 06:37 PM

Paul continues on this same line of thought and in Romans 8 makes it even clearer what the Spirit does...

Life Through the Spirit
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Romans 8:1-14
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/30/08 07:12 PM

 Originally Posted By: Richard
Paul continues on this same line of thought and in Romans 8 makes it even clearer what the Spirit does...

Again, it is a clear promise of victory over sin, but no promise of the eradication of the desire to sin.

Consider the constant call to walk in the Spirit, and forsake the flesh. That would not be necessary if the desire to walk in the flesh was gone. As Paul said in Galatians, the flesh and the Spirit are always pulling against each other. Here, he tells us the same promise we find in Galatians - that if we walk in the Spirit, we will put to death the deeds of the flesh.

But even while walking in the Spirit, the flesh constantly calls for gratification. So he tells us in Romans 13:14, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts."
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/31/08 04:51 PM

Then how, my brother would you read this verse, as how would we be able to live for righteousness if we did not first die to sins.

22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth."[e] 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:22-24

As Always Your Brother in Christ
Rick
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 01/31/08 07:17 PM

 Originally Posted By: Richard
Then how, my brother would you read this verse, as how would we be able to live for righteousness if we did not first die to sins.... 1 Peter 2:22-24

We cannot live for righteousness unless we die to sin. But dying to sin does not necessarily mean that we completely lose the desire to sin. When temptation comes, the flesh and Spirit will lust against each other, pulling us in different directions. We must then use our wills - the power of choice - to decide which call we will answer. Since we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, we must not respond to the flesh - we don't speak to the dead. This is a daily, even moment by moment exercise.

That being said, there's this to think about:
 Quote:
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 02/05/08 08:04 PM

I agree that born again believers, who are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, will not have a desire to sin. However, their fallen flesh nature will continue to tempt them from within to sin. Sinful flesh will always desire us to sin. But in Christ, and like Christ, we will recognize and resist the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh nature. Such fallenness does not contaminate character.
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 07/28/11 05:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I agree that born again believers, who are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, will not have a desire to sin. However, their fallen flesh nature will continue to tempt them from within to sin. Sinful flesh will always desire us to sin. But in Christ, and like Christ, we will recognize and resist the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh nature. Such fallenness does not contaminate character.
Would you consider that to be a plane of sinless perfection were like Enoch, God could take you or just being on a level of Job, a just and upright man?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 07/29/11 06:13 PM

Yes, the newborn believers Peter describes in the following passage are safe to translate alive.

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

It doesn't require years of time on station as Christians to qualify for translation. Ellen wrote:

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Such people are safe to save as is. They can spend the rest of eternity in heaven maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 07/30/11 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, the newborn believers Peter describes in the following passage are safe to translate alive.

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

It doesn't require years of time on station as Christians to qualify for translation. Ellen wrote:

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Such people are safe to save as is. They can spend the rest of eternity in heaven maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

Where in that statement, Mike, did you see Mrs. White speaking of the saved? I see her speaking of the sinner. Sinners are not all saved.

Do you think it is enough for the sinner to "loath himself?"

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/01/11 07:25 PM

GC, good point. I agree not all sinners are saved. Acknowledging sinfulness is not the same as confessing and forsaking it. Here's the following paragraph:

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. {SC 29.2}
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/04/11 04:18 PM

In our deviotional time this morning my wife and I read an EGW comment on "sinlessness" from today's (August 4th) reading from the book Maranatha.

This is what we read:
Quote:
Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.5}

The above quote doesn't say when this condition will be reached, but that it will be reached.

This prompted me to do a word search, which brought me to the following:
Quote:
If we are doers of the word of God, we shall be followers of Christ, and our lives will be characterized by holiness in aim, holiness in aspiration, holiness in action, which is progressive sanctification. We shall have Christlike sympathy for all souls, both saints and sinners; but with this experience there will be no vain boasting of our sinlessness. We shall rather speak in the language of Paul, and say: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect; but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded; and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 7}

The above quote speaks about "progressive sanctification" rather than "instant sanctification."
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/07/11 01:47 AM

Is this a contradiction?

Mikey's Funnies is generously hosted by Agathon Group, website development and hosting with a ministry heart:
http://www.agathongroup.com/

today's"FUNNY"===========================

WHEN I SAY, "I AM A CHRISTIAN"
By Carol Wimmer

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not shouting "I am saved."
I'm whispering "I was lost";
That is why I chose this way.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble,
And need someone to be my guide.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I'm weak,
And pray for strength to carry on.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed,
And cannot ever pay the debt.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not claiming to be perfect.
My flaws are too visible,
But God believes I'm worth it.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches,
Which is why I speak His name.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I do not wish to judge.
I have no authority;
I only know I'm loved.

Copyright 1989 Carol S. Wimmer. Permission is granted to send this to others, with attribution, but not for commercial purposes.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/07/11 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl F
In our deviotional time this morning my wife and I read an EGW comment on "sinlessness" from today's (August 4th) reading from the book Maranatha.

This is what we read:
Quote:
Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.5}

The above quote doesn't say when this condition will be reached, but that it will be reached.

This prompted me to do a word search, which brought me to the following:
Quote:
If we are doers of the word of God, we shall be followers of Christ, and our lives will be characterized by holiness in aim, holiness in aspiration, holiness in action, which is progressive sanctification. We shall have Christlike sympathy for all souls, both saints and sinners; but with this experience there will be no vain boasting of our sinlessness. We shall rather speak in the language of Paul, and say: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect; but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded; and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 7}

The above quote speaks about "progressive sanctification" rather than "instant sanctification."

Note she said "everyone". "Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." Peter describes newborn believers in such terms. 1 Peter 2:1-3 and 4:1-2. The thief on the cross achieved sinlessness. Paul achieved it on the road to Damascus and then maintained it throughout his life "perfecting holiness" (2 Cor 7:1) til the day he died.
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/08/11 01:32 PM

Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.
From Maranatha - Page 225

"Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects." And again: "Those who take pains to call attention to their good works, constantly talking of their sinless state and endeavoring to make their religious attainments prominent, are only deceiving their own souls by so doing." (The Sanctified Life, p. 7 & 12)

"But we shall not boast of our holiness. As we have clearer views of Christ's spotlessness and infinite purity, we shall feel as did Daniel, when he beheld the glory of the Lord, and said, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption." (Selected Messages 3, p. 355)

"Why is it that so many claim to be holy and sinless? It is because they are so far from Christ." Manuscript 5, 1885
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/08/11 08:26 PM

Believers who abide in Jesus do not sin; in fact, they cannot sin. 1 John 3:6-9. They are "perfecting holiness". To sin, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus.
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/09/11 01:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Believers who abide in Jesus do not sin; in fact, they cannot sin. 1 John 3:6-9. They are "perfecting holiness". To sin, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus.


What happens if you fall asleep for a moment, like the disciples did?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/09/11 04:18 AM

Quote:
To sin, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus.

which happens rather frequently. Sinless perfection cannot be a revolving-door experience - now in, now out. If we have this kind of "sinless perfection," we won't survive the time of trouble.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/10/11 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Believers who abide in Jesus do not sin; in fact, they cannot sin. 1 John 3:6-9. They are "perfecting holiness". To sin, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus.


What happens if you fall asleep for a moment, like the disciples did?

It wasn't a sin to fall asleep.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/10/11 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
To sin, they must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus.

which happens rather frequently. Sinless perfection cannot be a revolving-door experience - now in, now out.

Why not?


Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If we have this kind of "sinless perfection," we won't survive the time of trouble.

Only people who achieve and maintain sinless perfection will survive the time of trouble.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/11/11 12:45 AM

Quote:
Why not?

Because, if it could be defined as an intermittent experience, you would have achieved it the moment you became a Christian. Thus, the Christian who abides in Jesus 5% of the time has sinless perfection, in the same way that the Christian who abides in Jesus 80% of the time. But someone who has achieved sinless perfection abides in Jesus 100% of the time. It was in this condition of sinlessness that Adam lived before his transgression.

Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.5}
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/11/11 01:09 PM

Help! About 70 years ago my mother read to me from the writings of Ellen White describing one of her visions where she saw those who survive the time of trouble in anguish pleading for mercy because they regard themselves as such great sinners.

From this it seems that their victory is based on mercy rather than sinless perfection.

Will someone help me find the quotation?
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/11/11 01:43 PM


Try Early Writings or closing of Great Controversy.

Isn't Time of Trouble a chapter title?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/11/11 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Help! About 70 years ago my mother read to me from the writings of Ellen White describing one of her visions where she saw those who survive the time of trouble in anguish pleading for mercy because they regard themselves as such great sinners.

From this it seems that their victory is based on mercy rather than sinless perfection.

Will someone help me find the quotation?

Here's the passage:

Quote:
As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations and turn from their allegiance to God. {GC 618.3}

Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached. {GC 619.1}

On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end. But while they plead with God to stay the work of rebellion, it is with a keen sense of self-reproach that they themselves have no more power to resist and urge back the mighty tide of evil. They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them. {GC 619.2}

They afflict their souls before God, pointing to their past repentance of their many sins, and pleading the Saviour's promise: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Their faith does not fail because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the keenest anxiety, terror, and distress, they do not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the Angel; and the language of their souls is: "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me." {GC 619.3}

Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

As you can see, she doesn't say or imply they are still sinning. They are completely free of sin and sinning.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/11/11 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Why not?

Because, if it could be defined as an intermittent experience, you would have achieved it the moment you became a Christian. Thus, the Christian who abides in Jesus 5% of the time has sinless perfection, in the same way that the Christian who abides in Jesus 80% of the time. But someone who has achieved sinless perfection abides in Jesus 100% of the time. It was in this condition of sinlessness that Adam lived before his transgression.

Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.5}

They are 100% sinless while they are abiding in Jesus. And 100% sinful while they are not abiding in Jesus. No one can be 50% sinless and 50% sinful at the same time. We are either all of His and free of sin or none of His and full of sin.

Quote:
Matthew
6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!
6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke
16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Romans
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No one can sin willfully while abiding in Jesus. The Holy Spirit does not abide in people while they are sinning. While thus disconnected, the Holy Spirit is outside pleading with them to repent. Once they repent, the Holy Spirit reascends the throne of their soul temple empowering them from within to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/11/11 09:27 PM

Mike, what I'm saying is that the "condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" is that of abiding in Jesus 100% of the time. Those who don't abide in Jesus 100% of the time haven't yet reached this condition of sinlessness.
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/12/11 02:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:

- - -
"Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached. {GC 619.1}

"On every hand they hear the plottings of treason and see the active working of rebellion; and there is aroused within them an intense desire, an earnest yearning of soul, that this great apostasy may be terminated and the wickedness of the wicked may come to an end. But while they plead with God to stay the work of rebellion, it is with a keen sense of self-reproach that they themselves have no more power to resist and urge back the mighty tide of evil. They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them. {GC 619.2}

They afflict their souls before God, pointing to their past repentance of their many sins, and pleading the Saviour's promise: "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Their faith does not fail because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the keenest anxiety, terror, and distress, they do not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the Angel; and the language of their souls is: "I will not let Thee go, except Thou bless me." {GC 619.3}

Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

As you can see, she doesn't say or imply they are still sinning. They are completely free of sin and sinning.


But it is clear that they do not know it. . . They still fear that they may not have confessed all, even if they "cannot bring them to remembrance."
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/12/11 12:43 PM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Try Early Writings or closing of Great Controversy.

Isn't Time of Trouble a chapter title?


Thank you, Gordon. I was recalling my first experience of hearing this in my early childhood. Impressions that linger, even though I have read it many times since then. I wanted someone else to rediscover the great truth in that passage. At the moment I could not remember exactly where it is found. It seems to me like EGW states somewhat the same in a record of one of her visions, but I have not been able to locate that yet.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/12/11 07:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mike, what I'm saying is that the "condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" is that of abiding in Jesus 100% of the time. Those who don't abide in Jesus 100% of the time haven't yet reached this condition of sinlessness.

I agree. Good point. Thank you. Do you agree with my point?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/12/11 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Johann
M: As you can see, she doesn't say or imply they are still sinning. They are completely free of sin and sinning.

J: But it is clear that they do not know it. . . They still fear that they may not have confessed all, even if they "cannot bring them to remembrance."

Amen. I agree. Do you agree with my point?
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/12/11 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mike, what I'm saying is that the "condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" is that of abiding in Jesus 100% of the time. Those who don't abide in Jesus 100% of the time haven't yet reached this condition of sinlessness.


Yes, this is a very important point, "abiding in Jesus". Many people quote 1 John 3:4 "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

It is interesting to notice that in the rest of the chapter, if not in the rest of the epistle, the Apostle John defines the law as dealing with relationship, both with Christ and with other people. That is what "living in him" means.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/13/11 08:32 PM

Amen. Would you also say it means living in perfect harmony with the law? Or, do you suspect it includes sinning and repenting as normal?
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/14/11 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Amen. Would you also say it means living in perfect harmony with the law? Or, do you suspect it includes sinning and repenting as normal?


Answers to your questions depend on how you define "living in perfect harmony with the law." For now let me say that my answer to both questions would be "no"!

Scripture teaches that you are a sinner, and no matter how much you live in perfect harmony with the law is going to change that. Even five thousand years beyond the millennium will not change that. You are only counted sinless and as if you had never sinned and your sins are buried in the depths of the sea as long as your sin is hid in Jesus Christ. Because you have sinned you are just as much in need of Jesus Christ throughout eternity as when you first repented. I'm afraid anyone who figures he can manage without Jesus Christ after a certain time now or in the future will be in grave danger and is unfit for a place in the kingdom.

Yes, "Sinless Perfections" is a must, but is never achieved in and by yourself. It is a 100% devotion to Jesus Christ and a sealing by the Holy Spirit.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/15/11 07:33 AM

When our sins and second death perish with Satan in the lake of fire is it theoretically possible we could be guilty of them again in the future?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/15/11 07:35 AM

Also, is it possible to literally live sinlessly in this lifetime like A&E did in Eden?
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/15/11 12:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
When our sins and second death perish with Satan in the lake of fire is it theoretically possible we could be guilty of them again in the future?


We will still be there and will not perish. . . It is remarkable how good a job of restoration can be done by a master, and even more so by our perfect and Almighty Creator, but even He will keep the marks of His sufferings as a reminder all through eternity. Don't you think that reminder will keep you conscious of the sin which caused His suffering and fill you with gratitude that you are there - all because of Him?

If I should get the idea - God forbid - that I've made it because now I can live a perfect life without so much dependence on Him, wouldn't that diminish my sense of gratitude and devotion?

Yes, I think there is the theoretical possibility that I might turn into a varnished Pharisee. On the other hand if that is still in me at the Second Coming I'd be rather uncomfortable being taken to a place where I couldn't waggle my tail comforting myself I made it because of my excellent grades in the school below, expecting even higher grades and admiration by those who have seen how I managed to gain victories through my encounters on Earth and how well my voice tunes into the Heavenly Choir. They should take due consideration to my abilities and ask me to sing some solo parts for all to take notice, shouldn't they.

Am I making it too obvious?
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/15/11 01:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, is it possible to literally live sinlessly in this lifetime like A&E did in Eden?


I think the more I consider the possibility of living a sinless life, achieving it becomes more difficult because it would make me focus more on myself than on Jesus Christ - Who is my only hope.
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/16/11 05:15 AM

I have been pondering why Ellen White makes a point of it that the saints who go through the last tribulation have to pass through the nightmare of wondering if there should still be some unconfessed sin they are not aware of?

"Another doctrine that will be presented is that all that we have to do is to believe in Christ—to believe that He has forgiven our sins, and that after we are 596forgiven, it is impossible for us to sin. This is a snare of Satan. It is true that we must believe in Christ. He is our only hope of salvation. But it is also true that we must work out our individual salvation daily in faith, not boastingly but with fear and trembling. We are to use every power of our being in His service, and after we have done our utmost, we are still to regard ourselves as unprofitable servants. Divine power will unite with our efforts, and as we cling to God with the hand of faith, Christ will impart to us His wisdom and His righteousness. Thus, by His grace, we shall be enabled to build upon the sure foundation."—Manuscript 27, 1886. {Ev 595.3}

"We may commit the keeping of our souls to God as unto a faithful Creator, not because we are sinless, but because Jesus died to save just such erring, faulty creatures as we are. We may rest upon God, not because of our own merit, but because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. We must look away from self to the spotless Lamb of God, who did no sin; and by looking to him in faith we shall become like him." {GW92 427.3}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/16/11 05:58 PM

Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/17/11 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?


Yes, but what claims should one make on the basis of this answer?

Quote:
1 John 1:8-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.



1 John 3:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/18/11 03:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?


Yes, but what claims should one make on the basis of this answer?

Quote:
1 John 1:8-10
...
1 John 3:6


But aside from the claims one may or may not make, there is something even more fundamental:

Quote:
Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. {SL 7.2}

More important than not making the claim to sinlessness, true saints will not even THINK they are sinless. Why? Because they will deeply "feel their own defects."

Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/18/11 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?

I would think that if one is to live sinlessly, he would be required to do it without sinning. IOW, "without sinning" is a necessary condition for living sinlessly.

Perhaps a more pressing question is this: If one has stopped committing sin, does that mean he is sinless? Furthermore, if he was truly sinless, would it be a sin for him to claim otherwise?
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/19/11 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?


Yes, but what claims should one make on the basis of this answer?

Quote:
1 John 1:8-10
...
1 John 3:6


But aside from the claims one may or may not make, there is something even more fundamental:

Quote:
Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. {SL 7.2}

More important than not making the claim to sinlessness, true saints will not even THINK they are sinless. Why? Because they will deeply "feel their own defects."

Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are?


Serious and important questions. Thank you, Asygo. This turns my thoughts to
Quote:
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.


And the words of John the Baptist:
Quote:
Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear!
Matt. 3:11.

It is a matter of Who is worthy? Do I reach the kingdom because I am worthy - or is it HIM who is worthy because He was slain? He must increase and I must decrease.
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/19/11 03:12 PM

Ellen White indicates that Revelation 5 could be a key to understand "what constitutes sin" and dealing with those who lack that understanding. 9T267.

Revelation 5 deals with worshiping the Lamb that is worthy. It points us to Jesus Christ.

Again, 1 John 3:4 defines lawlessness as sin, and the rest of that chapter deals with the law regulating how our relationship is to others. Ellen White deals with that aspect in My Life Today from August 16 to 22.

Quote:
In all your transactions with your fellow men never forget that you are dealing with God’s property. Be kind; be pitiful; be courteous. Respect God’s purchased possession. Treat one another with tenderness and courtesy. {ML 235.3}
My Life Today, p. 235.4 (EGW)
If you have enmity, suspicion, envy, and jealousy in your hearts, you have a work to do to make these things right. Confess your sins; come into harmony with your brethren. Speak well of them. Throw out no unfavorable hints, no suggestions that will awaken distrust in the minds of others. Guard their reputation as sacredly as you would have them guard yours; love them as you would be loved of Jesus. {ML 235.4}
My Life Today, p. 235.5 (EGW)
The grace of God leads men to place themselves in all their business transactions in the place of those with whom they are dealing. It leads men to look not only on their own things but also on the things of others. It leads them to reveal tenderness, sympathy, and kindness. Cherishing a right spirit, living a holy life—this is what being Christlike means.... {ML 235.5}
My Life Today, p. 235.6 (EGW)
Let your life be controlled by the wide, generous principles of the Bible, the principles of good will, kindness, and courtesy. {ML 235.6}


By this standard, do I live a sinless life? What are my feelings towards the mailman who did not close my mailbox well enough, so when the storm came the rain poured on my mail?

Elsewhere in these sections I read something like that the worst people around me are my neighbors. How I am towards those if that determines if I keep the law or not, more than how well I am groomed for church? As the final day approaches where do I stand? Have I received forgiveness from every person I may not have treated as I should during my 78 years?
Posted By: Johann

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/26/11 12:14 PM

Quote:
In the fifty-eighth chapter of Isaiah the work that the people of God are to do in Christ's lines is dearly set forth. They are to break every yoke, they are to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked. . . . If they carry out the principles of the law of God in acts of mercy and love, they will represent the character of God to the world, and receive the richest blessings of Heaven.
From My Life Today - Page 246

Those who have pity for the . . . widows, the orphans, and the needy, Christ represents as commandment keepers, who shall have eternal life.
From My Life Today - Page 244


By these standards am I keeping the commandments and live in "Sinless Perfection"?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/27/11 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are?

Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out. Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/27/11 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning?

I would think that if one is to live sinlessly, he would be required to do it without sinning. IOW, "without sinning" is a necessary condition for living sinlessly.

Perhaps a more pressing question is this: If one has stopped committing sin, does that mean he is sinless? Furthermore, if he was truly sinless, would it be a sin for him to claim otherwise?

Some people seem to think Christians live sinlessly, while sinning, because Jesus covers their sins with His blood and righteousness.

Yes, believers who are abiding in Jesus and who have stopped sinning are sinless. They do not claim to be sinless because they are focused on Jesus. If they were asked, Are you sinless? Do you sin? When was the last time you sinned? they would say, According to the word of God, believers who are abiding in Jesus do not sin. While I am abiding in Jesus I do not sin.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/27/11 07:32 PM

We are only capable of doing one thing at a time. We are not omniscient or omnipresent. We cannot be sinning and not sinning at the same time. At any one moment of time we are either abiding in Jesus and not sinning or we are not abiding in Jesus and sinning. The goal, therefore, is to abide in Jesus all the time. Those who do are not sinning. It's that simple.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/27/11 09:43 PM

Quote:
Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them.

????
Did Christ have character defects, weaknesses and imperfections?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/30/11 03:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are?

Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out.

True. Hating someone is not the same as killing. Nevertheless, they are both sin.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them.

So, do you believe that "the more deeply will they feel their own defects" applies to Jesus?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/30/11 03:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, believers who are abiding in Jesus and who have stopped sinning are sinless.

So, by definition, the answer to "Are you abiding in Jesus?" is always the same as the answer to "Are you sinless?" Is that what you believe?

Has any true Christian ever claimed to be abiding in Jesus?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them.

????
Did Christ have character defects, weaknesses and imperfections?

There is a difference between cultivated and inherited defects, weaknesses, and imperfections. Jesus did not have cultivated ones. He was born with inherited ones. He never acted them out.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 01:01 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
A: Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are?

M: Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out.

A: True. Hating someone is not the same as killing. Nevertheless, they are both sin.

Hating someone is acting them out. Having them and not acting out is the difference I'm talking about. Do you see a difference?

Quote:
M: Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them.

A: So, do you believe that "the more deeply will they feel their own defects" applies to Jesus?

Yes, as Jesus grew from childhood to manhood He became more keenly aware of the defects, weaknesses, and imperfections He inherited. He never acted them out.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 01:08 AM

Quote:
There is a difference between cultivated and inherited defects, weaknesses, and imperfections. Jesus did not have cultivated ones. He was born with inherited ones. He never acted them out.

Whether inherited or cultivated, character defects are character defects. So you believe Christ had character defects?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, believers who are abiding in Jesus and who have stopped sinning are sinless.

So, by definition, the answer to "Are you abiding in Jesus?" is always the same as the answer to "Are you sinless?" Is that what you believe? Has any true Christian ever claimed to be abiding in Jesus?

Believers who claim the promises, while abiding in Jesus, are experiencing them. See 1 John 3:6-9. They do not claim to be sinless. To say so, draws attention to themselves and away from Jesus - a sin if there was ever was one. Knowing we are 1) right with God, 2) growing in grace, and 3) maturing in the fruits of the Spirit is as important to the plan of salvation as embracing Jesus as our personal Savior. See 1 John 5:13.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 01:41 AM

Quote:
Yes, as Jesus grew from childhood to manhood He became more keenly aware of the defects, weaknesses, and imperfections He inherited.

How did He become aware of them?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 05:47 AM

In the different ways He was tempted as He grew older.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 05:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
There is a difference between cultivated and inherited defects, weaknesses, and imperfections. Jesus did not have cultivated ones. He was born with inherited ones. He never acted them out.

Whether inherited or cultivated, character defects are character defects. So you believe Christ had character defects?

I disagree with the idea people inherit cultivated character. Character is the result of repetitious choices. We inherit traits of character - not character itself.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 05:57 AM

Here are some quotes on character:

Any one act, either good or evil, does not form the character; but thoughts and feelings indulged prepare the way for acts and deeds of the same kind. (CG 199)

It is not through one act that the character is formed, but by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed. (ST 4-30-1894)

Character does not come by chance. It is not determined by one outburst of temper, one step in the wrong direction. It is the repetition of the act that causes it to become habit, and molds the character either for good or for evil. (CG 164)

A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. (FLB 44)

Mental ability and genius are not character, for these are often possessed by those who have the very opposite of a good character. Reputation is not character. True character is a quality of the soul, revealing itself in the conduct. (CG 161)
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/02/11 03:38 PM

Mike,

When one has an evil trait of character, he/she is destitute of the opposite good trait of character. If by nature you are impatient, your nature is obviously opposed to patience.

The duty of intelligent souls is to hold to the truth, to practice virtue. We are born with a disinclination to both. It is sad to find in one's own constitution an opposition to virtues that are commendable in the sight of God, as submission, charity, sweetness of spirit, and patience that will not be provoked. Say to yourselves, dear children, I am weakness, but God is my strength. He has given me my post of duty. The General whom I serve bids me be an overcomer. . . . {TDG 34.4}

Both the inclination to wrong and the disinclination to right, the opposition to virtue, obviously constitute a transgression of God's law.

Men must be truly converted. Their natural defects of disposition must be changed for the virtues of Christ’s character, else they will never enter the kingdom of heaven. They must be humble, charitable, kind, merciful; then they will be called, Blessed of the Lord. {PCO 110.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/03/11 05:30 AM

Amen! However, having such defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out. Rebirth does not immediately eradicate them. Yes, God implants within newborn believers "new motives, new tastes, new tendencies" and by abiding in Jesus they are able to form new, sinless traits of character. In "all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." In time, their old, evil traits die out.

Quote:
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/05/11 04:51 PM

The idea that people are born again ignorantly acting out some of their sinful traits of character is unbiblical. Even more unbiblical is the idea that the reason they are ignorant is due to the fact the Holy Spirit is waiting to reveal it to them until the time is right. The only truths people might be ignorant of at the time of rebirth is the Sabbath, certain lifestyle truths like diet and dress, and certain doctrines like the 2300 day prophecy. Otherwise, people who experience true, genuine rebirth are completely aware of their character defects and, by the grace of God, are successfully resisting them and cultivating new, sinless traits of character. If they fail to abide in Jesus, they immediately fall into sin. However, they resolutely embrace the proffered gift of repentance and are thereby empowered to confess and forsake their failure and to resume abiding in Jesus - growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/06/11 06:51 PM

Quote:
However, having such defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out.

No, it's not the same thing. However, someone who possesses them cannot be considered sinless, nor can his character be considered perfect. So, if Christ possessed them, He neither was sinless nor had a perfect character.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/11/11 06:17 AM

Jesus "took part of the same" flesh as we have (Heb 2:14). Better, far better, to say he "took" sinful flesh than that he "had" our flesh, as he is the incarnated Son of God, not the son of Joseph...

[International Critical Commentary, as far back as the 1980s, suggested that Rom 8:3b says "likeness of sinful flesh" means actual sinful flesh because Jesus, after becoming human, is also God's only begotten Son, in the form of a servant.]

Also, he was not exempt from the great law of heredity: inherited character traits are included. He just experienced justification by faith - daily receiving of his Father's Spirit, establishing the "mind of Christ" - perfectly all his life, living perfectly righteously as our Saviour and Example. At enormous, infinite risk to his deity, he could have sinned, but not for a moment did corruption, personal guilt, rest on him.

Possessing sinfulness does not automatically or necessarily mean sinning: personal choice is involved, and the power of God is at hand by grace through faith. We sin because we're sinful; we're sinners because we sin: that's the correct wording!! grin

As we grow in Christlikeness while he intercedes his righteous traits for our repented of sinful traits, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is the experience of justification by faith we are perfecting in this life: sanctification is but continuing, repeating, the experience of justification till in it is our continual, non-stop, waking existence. That is the promise. wink Probation closes because that experience is perfected in us (yes, justificaton by faith is also in us smile ) as the character of the wedding dress of the Lamb's bride (Rev 19:8). That "marriage of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7) is the closing of probation: ask Dwight Nelson, among others.

We retain sinful flesh till translation, but we may and need to repent perfectly of sinful inclinations as Christ himself did - not one of which, says SOP, we need retain - as we become Christlike, always looking to him. smile
Posted By: dedication

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/11/11 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The idea that people are born again ignorantly acting out some of their sinful traits of character is unbiblical. Even more unbiblical is the idea that the reason they are ignorant is due to the fact the Holy Spirit is waiting to reveal it to them until the time is right. The only truths people might be ignorant of at the time of rebirth is the Sabbath, certain lifestyle truths like diet and dress, and certain doctrines like the 2300 day prophecy. Otherwise, people who experience true, genuine rebirth are completely aware of their character defects and, by the grace of God, are successfully resisting them and cultivating new, sinless traits of character. If they fail to abide in Jesus, they immediately fall into sin. However, they resolutely embrace the proffered gift of repentance and are thereby empowered to confess and forsake their failure and to resume abiding in Jesus - growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.


I respectfully disagree.
There is no way a person is conscious of all their sinful traits at conversion.
You seem to be centering on the obvious things -- without realizing the deceitfulness and deep seatedness of sin.
And yes, the Holy Spirit does reveal these things A LITTLE at a time.
Sanctification is the work of a lifetime -- that is -- the Holy Spirit works with us everyday of our lives helping us to "put to death the deeds of the flesh" (Romans 8:13).

I know the Holy Spirit brings things to my attention that I hadn't even considered a problem years earlier, things about myself that I hadn't even noticed. Sometimes a moment of stress brings out something in the character that went unnoticed before but that was shaping attitudes for years and now needs to be surrendered to Christ and replaced.

The promise is:
Phil. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

We grow in grace into mature Christians.
It's not a full revelation at conversion and we "give up every sinful trait" at that point. Yes, we turn our backs on our known sins at that point. And yes, they will try to re-establish themselves if we take our focus off Christ. But there is another type of growth, which is the Holy Spirit leading us step by step ALL OUR LIVES, ironing out other defects, cleaning out other corners in our hearts and minds.

Our perfection is in Christ, not in ourselves.
While it is important to walk with Christ in obedience, surrendering all our cherished sins, yet the focus on perfecting ourselves is focusing on the wrong end of sanctification.
Too often we have our own little list of things to overcome, and if we can check them all off we think we've overcome sin. WRONG. That is seeking our own righteousness, not the righteousness the Holy Spirit leads us into. Because the Holy Spirit sees A LOT more defects than we do in our lives.

Our focus should be on living for Christ each day, one day at a time. To do HIS will and walk with Him TODAY, to take seriously His promptings.

And as long as we are following in obedience and trust we are counted as perfect in God's sight.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/11/11 09:57 PM

Quote:
Possessing sinfulness does not automatically or necessarily mean sinning

Colin, so you believe the law of God does not condemn opposition to virtue?

Quote:
Also, he was not exempt from the great law of heredity: inherited character traits are included.

Is a character with sinful traits a perfect character?
Posted By: Colin

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/11/11 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Possessing sinfulness does not automatically or necessarily mean sinning

Colin, so you believe the law of God does not condemn opposition to virtue?

Yes, it does: Jesus was born of a woman, born under the law, and he bore the curse of that condemnation, yet was the righteous Lamb of God.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, he was not exempt from the great law of heredity: inherited character traits are included.

Is a character with sinful traits a perfect character?

Inherited traits aren't the character of our actions, remember. Our actions make our character, whatever our background. Worse backgrounds make it harder, that's all, and Jesus' ancestry was really, really bad in places.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/11/11 10:42 PM

Quote:
Yes, it does: Jesus was born of a woman, born under the law, and he bore the curse of that condemnation, yet was the righteous Lamb of God.

If Jesus died because He was condemned by the law, He couldn't die for us.

Quote:
Inherited traits aren't the character of our actions, remember. Our actions make our character, whatever our background.

Ellen White doesn't say at all that only our actions make our character. What she says is:

If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. —Testimonies for the Church 5:310. (94) {MYP 92.1}
Posted By: Colin

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/13/11 07:56 AM

"He bore the curse" on our behalf: he nailed our condemned, sinful humanity to the tree to suffer that curse, remember? Are you somehow not following my points?

Of course thoughts are behind actions and feelings, etc. Ellen White does say, again, that Christ was not exempt from the great law of heredity.

Our experience of sin and righteousness should be powered by God's grace to be Spirit-filled and Christlike - living, genuine righteousness by faith in this earth. God says so, and it pertains to mind and character, not flesh, which shall be abandoned only on that day of translation once we are ready in Spirit and character to see God's glory in our fleshly bodies.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/13/11 04:31 PM

Quote:
"He bore the curse" on our behalf

To bear the curse on our behalf, He must be condemned only by imputation, that is, He must die for something He didn't deserve to die for, not for something He deserved to die for.

Quote:
Of course thoughts are behind actions and feelings, etc. Ellen White does say, again, that Christ was not exempt from the great law of heredity.

Sinful traits produce wrong thoughts and feelings. A character which is made up of wrong thoughts and feelings cannot be perfect.
Posted By: Colin

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/13/11 07:37 PM

We mustn't lose sight of the thread's topic, here, of course... wink

Wrong thoughts and feelings and actions produce character only as we consent to the inclinations of those sinful traits: to resist those inclinations by the power of God is to work righteousness and reflect Christlikeness. Being tempted is not sin.

Jesus took our sinful flesh to become a man, the Second Adam. He handled human experience after 4000 years of sinful degradation of man, remember.

Our guilt may be imputed to him, but the punishment, the eternal annihilation, due our sinful nature because of its condemned sinfulness - we need redemption from both - could not be imputed: it must be borne in righteousness to the cross by our Saviour, for him to be Saviour. To bear the curse sinful nature itself, in his person, he must possess sinful nature in righteousness to his death on the tree.

Thus redeemed of all aspects of sin, we are free in him to live to God.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/16/11 03:03 AM

How can you say that a character which lacks some righteous attributes is perfect?

Quote:
Our guilt may be imputed to him, but the punishment, the eternal annihilation, due our sinful nature because of its condemned sinfulness - we need redemption from both - could not be imputed: it must be borne in righteousness to the cross by our Saviour, for him to be Saviour.

Our sinful nature is our sinful character - a character which naturally lacks some righteous attributes (the lack of a given righteous attribute is called a sinful tendency). And imperfection of character is condemned by the law. This condemnation was also imputed to Christ.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/16/11 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: However, having such defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out.

R: No, it's not the same thing. However, someone who possesses them cannot be considered sinless, nor can his character be considered perfect. So, if Christ possessed them, He neither was sinless nor had a perfect character.

Having "defects, weaknesses, and imperfections" isn't referring to character. Instead, it refers to sinful flesh. Flesh and character are two separate aspects of human nature. Do you make this distinction? Or, do you view them as one and the same thing? People who experience the miracle of rebirth are born again without their sinful traits of character. Such traits are crucified. At the moment of rebirth, Jesus "implants" a new nature, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies, they partake of the divine nature and cultivate sinless traits of character - "in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ."

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The Holy Spirit implants a new nature, and molds through the grace of Christ the human character, until the image of Christ is perfected; this is true holiness. {PC 392.1}

Aside from Christ, man cannot in spirit and in truth keep one of the commandments of God, but in Christ Jesus the claims of the law are met, because He transforms the nature of man by His grace, creates in the heart a new spiritual life, implants a holy nature, and men become Christlike in character. {14MR 86.1}

The power which Christ imparts, enables man to resist the tyrant and usurper. Whoever is seen to abhor sin instead of loving it, whoever resists and conquers those passions that have held sway within, displays the operation of a principle wholly from above. {AG 108.3}

The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. {6BC 1101.1}

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

Jesus took upon Himself sinful flesh. He was tempted from within and from without in the same way born again believers are. Being tempted from within is not a sin.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/17/11 04:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Colin
Jesus "took part of the same" flesh as we have (Heb 2:14). Better, far better, to say he "took" sinful flesh than that he "had" our flesh, as he is the incarnated Son of God, not the son of Joseph...


Is there a significant difference between "taking" something and "having" it? If so, what is the difference?
Posted By: Will

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/17/11 08:34 AM

MountainMan,
After all these years, I think I feel confident enough to say that I agree with your definition of sinless perfection. I am understanding that sinful flesh and sinful character to be 2 different things, as you stated.
Paul had written that the spirit is in direct conflict with the flesh as the flesh is always sinful. However our character should be like Christ.
Meaning the things we use to love we now hate e.g. worldliness, and materialism etc etc, and now we seek God's face in His word, and in nature, and try to lead others to Christ.

Is my interpretation accurate?
God Bless,
-Will
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/17/11 07:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Will
MountainMan,
After all these years, I think I feel confident enough to say that I agree with your definition of sinless perfection. I am understanding that sinful flesh and sinful character to be 2 different things, as you stated. Paul had written that the spirit is in direct conflict with the flesh as the flesh is always sinful. However our character should be like Christ. Meaning the things we use to love we now hate e.g. worldliness, and materialism etc etc, and now we seek God's face in His word, and in nature, and try to lead others to Christ. Is my interpretation accurate?

I'm happy to hear you say so. Yes, I believe your interpretation is accurate. You might enjoy reading my book. It's basically a compilation of Bible and SOP insights which make clear the truth about rebirth, conversion, and character perfection. Born-again believers who are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, partaking of the divine nature do not, yea, cannot commit a known sin. They are, instead, and more importantly, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit "more and more unto the perfect day." "This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another." {ML 250.4}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/20/11 05:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: However, having such defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out.

R: No, it's not the same thing. However, someone who possesses them cannot be considered sinless, nor can his character be considered perfect. So, if Christ possessed them, He neither was sinless nor had a perfect character.

Having "defects, weaknesses, and imperfections" isn't referring to character. Instead, it refers to sinful flesh. Flesh and character are two separate aspects of human nature. Do you make this distinction? Or, do you view them as one and the same thing? People who experience the miracle of rebirth are born again without their sinful traits of character. Such traits are crucified. At the moment of rebirth, Jesus "implants" a new nature, new tastes, new motives, new tendencies, they partake of the divine nature and cultivate sinless traits of character - "in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ."

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The Holy Spirit implants a new nature, and molds through the grace of Christ the human character, until the image of Christ is perfected; this is true holiness. {PC 392.1}

Aside from Christ, man cannot in spirit and in truth keep one of the commandments of God, but in Christ Jesus the claims of the law are met, because He transforms the nature of man by His grace, creates in the heart a new spiritual life, implants a holy nature, and men become Christlike in character. {14MR 86.1}

The power which Christ imparts, enables man to resist the tyrant and usurper. Whoever is seen to abhor sin instead of loving it, whoever resists and conquers those passions that have held sway within, displays the operation of a principle wholly from above. {AG 108.3}

The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. {6BC 1101.1}

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

Jesus took upon Himself sinful flesh. He was tempted from within and from without in the same way born again believers are. Being tempted from within is not a sin.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/20/11 11:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
He was tempted from within and from without in the same way born again believers are.

If you don't mind, I would like to go over this ground again.

You talk of temptations from within and from without. I want to get a better handle of how you see this.
  • Which one is stronger in unbelievers?
  • Which one is stronger in believers?
  • Which one was stronger in Jesus?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/21/11 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
M: However, having such defects, weaknesses, and imperfections Jesus was tempted from within and from without in the same way born again believers are.

A: If you don't mind, I would like to go over this ground again. You talk of temptations from within and from without. I want to get a better handle of how you see this.
  • Which one is stronger in unbelievers?
  • Which one is stronger in believers?
  • Which one was stronger in Jesus?

I suppose they're equal in strength for everyone. The difference has to do with origin, where the temptation originates. When Satan literally, physically appeared as an angel of light and tempted Jesus to turn stones into bread to prove His messianic credentials, I suspect it was harder to resist than, say, His sinful flesh acting alone tempting Him from within to indulge appetite. Why do you ask?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/21/11 06:15 PM

PS - If evil angels were dead and gone, sinful flesh would remain and continuously tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus. The same is true if we were shut away from all outside evil influences, that is, sinful flesh would continuously tempt us from within.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/24/11 04:26 AM

Quote:
Having "defects, weaknesses, and imperfections" isn't referring to character.

When Ellen White refers to defects, she means character defects; when she refers to weaknesses, she refers to weak points of character, and when she refers to imperfections, she means imperfections of character. And all these are synonyms for sinful traits of character.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/24/11 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Having "defects, weaknesses, and imperfections" isn't referring to character.

R: When Ellen White refers to defects, she means character defects; when she refers to weaknesses, she refers to weak points of character, and when she refers to imperfections, she means imperfections of character. And all these are synonyms for sinful traits of character.

Character and defective traits of character are two different realities. Born-again believers can be perfect in character and still have "defects, weaknesses, and imperfections." They are predisposed. In Christ, however, they do not act them out.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/25/11 12:02 AM

So you are saying that traits of character are not part of the character?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 09/27/11 06:53 PM

Everyone is born with every human trait of character. But no one develops all of them. Jesus is the only person who developed all of them perfectly. Character is composed of the specific traits we ourselves develop. However, many traits lie dormant and undeveloped. As such, they do not count as character. Evil traits, by the way, are nothing more than perversions of innocent, legitimate traits.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/01/11 06:23 PM

The idea that having sinful flesh nature counts as sin and corruption is false.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/01/11 10:56 PM

Quote:
Everyone is born with every human trait of character.

Everybody is born with weak and strong traits of character. The weak and the strong traits are different in every person.

Quote:
Character is composed of the specific traits we ourselves develop.

Mike, there is no way one can become conscious of a sinful trait of character unless it is manifested in sinful thoughts and/or acts.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/01/11 11:27 PM

Quote:
The idea that having sinful flesh nature counts as sin and corruption is false.

The "flesh" is the carnal nature.

This is how the triad "the world, the flesh and the devil" is defined:

Every Christian will be assailed by the allurements of the world, the clamors of the carnal nature, and the direct temptations of Satan. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, 102.) {Pr 179.2}

The sinful propensities are in the carnal nature:

The apostle [Paul] declares that he did not run in the Christian race uncertainly, that is, indifferently, willing to be left behind; neither did he fight as the pugilist practices prior to the fray, beating the air with empty blows, having no opponent. But as, when in actual conflict, he contends for the mastery, overcomes his antagonist by repeated and well-directed blows, beats him to the ground, and holds him there till he acknowledges himself conquered, so did the apostle fight against the temptations of Satan and the evil propensities of the carnal nature. {LP 167.2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/02/11 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mike, there is no way one can become conscious of a sinful trait of character unless it is manifested in sinful thoughts and/or acts.

Human nature is sinful. Human tendencies (propensities, inclinations) are sinful. Human traits of character, however, are neutral. We use human traits to cultivate human character. While abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, we use human traits to cultivate sinless character. Otherwise, the opposite is true. We are conscious of the character we cultivate.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/02/11 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
The idea that having sinful flesh nature counts as sin and corruption is false.

The "flesh" is the carnal nature. This is how the triad "the world, the flesh and the devil" is defined: Every Christian will be assailed by the allurements of the world, the clamors of the carnal nature, and the direct temptations of Satan. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, 102.) {Pr 179.2}

The sinful propensities are in the carnal nature: The apostle [Paul] declares that he did not run in the Christian race uncertainly, that is, indifferently, willing to be left behind; neither did he fight as the pugilist practices prior to the fray, beating the air with empty blows, having no opponent. But as, when in actual conflict, he contends for the mastery, overcomes his antagonist by repeated and well-directed blows, beats him to the ground, and holds him there till he acknowledges himself conquered, so did the apostle fight against the temptations of Satan and the evil propensities of the carnal nature. {LP 167.2}

Amen. The point is - the fact sinful flesh nature craves sinful expression and tempts us from within to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways is not a sin we must repent of, or a sin that contaminates character cultivated as a result of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature. Yes, the clamoring of our "internal foes" is sinful, but it is not a sin (in the sense we are guilty, or in the sense we must repent).
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/07/11 05:00 AM

Quote:
Human traits of character, however, are neutral.

???
Teachers are to consider that they are not dealing with angels, but human beings with like passions as they themselves have. Characters are not formed in one mold. There is every phase of character received by children as an inheritance. The defects and the virtues in traits of character are thus revealed. Let every instructor take this into consideration. Hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character, as also beauty of character, will have to be met, and much grace cultivated in the instructor to know how to deal with the erring for their present and eternal good. (FE, 277, 278)
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/07/11 07:22 PM

Yes, traits themselves are neutral. It's what we do with them that results in either sinful or sinless character. Again, traits and character are two different realities. The cultivation of sinful character is a perversion of the traits we inherit at birth. However, praise the Lord, the same traits, while we are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, are employed to cultivate sinless character.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/08/11 03:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Teachers are to consider that they are not dealing with angels, but human beings with like passions as they themselves have. Characters are not formed in one mold. There is every phase of character received by children as an inheritance. The defects and the virtues in traits of character are thus revealed. Let every instructor take this into consideration. Hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character, as also beauty of character, will have to be met, and much grace cultivated in the instructor to know how to deal with the erring for their present and eternal good. (FE, 277, 278)

Is there such a thing as HEREDITARY "deformity of human character"? Is character part of our heredity? And a deformed one at that?

Apparently, Yes, on all three counts. And if we are to be good instructors, we must take the fact of a corrupt heredity into account.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/08/11 07:24 PM

Elsewhere Ellen makes it very clear character is not inherited. For example: "But character is not inherited." {PP 223.1} True, we inherit from our parents a predisposition to cultivate their dominate traits of character. But is is not true to say we inherit character. Our eternal destiny is based on the character we ourselves cultivate. Ellen wrote:

"God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. {COL 331.1}

"Character cannot be bought with gold; it does not come to us by accident. Character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. {RH, December 29, 1896 par. 2}

"The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. {4T 429.2}
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/08/11 08:20 PM


A screaming newborn has a character.

EVERYTHING the newborn has is inherited.

_______________________
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/09/11 12:52 AM

Quote:
Elsewhere Ellen makes it very clear character is not inherited. For example: "But character is not inherited." {PP 223.1}

Mike, the context makes it very clear that an upright character is not inherited, as it would have been the case if Adam had not sinned.

God gave our first parents a pure and upright character, in harmony with His law; and had they remained obedient, they would have bequeathed the same character to their posterity. {BEcho, July 29, 1895 par. 2}
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/09/11 10:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Elsewhere Ellen makes it very clear character is not inherited. For example: "But character is not inherited." {PP 223.1}

Is it your belief that EGW was wrong when she wrote, "Hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character"?

BTW, this is one reason why I believe LGT does not fully accept EGW. They reject some of her teachings, their claims to fidelity notwithstanding.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/09/11 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1

A screaming newborn has a character.

Every parent knows this by experience.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/09/11 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Elsewhere Ellen makes it very clear character is not inherited. For example: "But character is not inherited." {PP 223.1}

Mike, the context makes it very clear that an upright character is not inherited, as it would have been the case if Adam had not sinned.

God gave our first parents a pure and upright character, in harmony with His law; and had they remained obedient, they would have bequeathed the same character to their posterity. {BEcho, July 29, 1895 par. 2}

Once again, you and I are on the same page.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 03:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Elsewhere Ellen makes it very clear character is not inherited. For example: "But character is not inherited." {PP 223.1}

R: Mike, the context makes it very clear that an upright character is not inherited, as it would have been the case if Adam had not sinned. "God gave our first parents a pure and upright character, in harmony with His law; and had they remained obedient, they would have bequeathed the same character to their posterity. {BEcho, July 29, 1895 par. 2}

Character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct. "As a rule, children inherit the dispositions and tendencies of their parents, and imitate their example; so that the sins of the parents are practiced by the children from generation to generation. {CTr 67.3}

"Children inherit inclinations to wrong, but they also have many lovely traits of character. These should be strengthened and developed, while the tendencies to evil should be carefully guarded against and repressed. {1MCP 144.4}

"Children generally inherit the peculiar traits of character which the parents possess, and in addition to all this, many come up without any redeeming influence around them. {2SM 421.3}

"Parents give the stamp of character to their children. Children that are born of these parents inherit qualities of mind from them which are of a low and base order. Satan nourishes anything tending to corruption. {SA 174.2}

"All minds are not constituted alike. Children inherit from their parents some strong tendencies. These existed in the parent, and exist intensified in the children. {HR, July 1, 1880 par. 2}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 03:12 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Elsewhere Ellen makes it very clear character is not inherited. For example: "But character is not inherited." {PP 223.1}

A: Is it your belief that EGW was wrong when she wrote, "Hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character"? BTW, this is one reason why I believe LGT does not fully accept EGW. They reject some of her teachings, their claims to fidelity notwithstanding.

When we study what Ellen wrote about the topic of character, I believe it is clear she taught character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct. We inherit traits and tendencies, with which we cultivate character, but we do not inherit character.

As you know, Ellen makes it clear character will, during judgment, determine our eternal destiny. With this in mind, do you believe people will be judged based on the "character" they inherited? Ellen wrote:

"They saw that there was a great work to be done in order to obtain a fitness of character for the kingdom of God. They knew that no one could do their work for them; that no one could believe for them; that no one could form a character for them. It was an individual work, a personal effort. {RH, January 4, 1887 par. 2}

PS - Did John the Baptist, who was "filled with the Holy Ghost" from birth, inherit a holy character?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 05:29 AM

Quote:
Character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

No. EGW is clear - God gave a character to Adam; God created Adam with a character similar to His.

God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. {AG 344.3}

We are born with a character baggage. This character we are born with begins then to be developed.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 05:44 AM

Quote:
Character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

Character is made up of thoughts and feelings. These originate the choices and conduct and are, at the same time, influenced by them.

If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {HP 164.2}
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 06:05 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

A screaming newborn has a character.

Every parent knows this by experience.


And every careful student of the Bible & SOP can learn this by study - without the pitfalls of 'experience by experimentation.'

IOW, we do not require experience to make informed decisions.

God can and will teach us His appointed way.

_____________________________
Posted By: Elle

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:01 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

A screaming newborn has a character.

Every parent knows this by experience.

And every careful student of the Bible & SOP can learn this by study - without the pitfalls of 'experience by experimentation.'

IOW, we do not require experience to make informed decisions.

God can and will teach us His appointed way.

Are you advocating intellectual awareness sufficient to prevent any fall? A&E did they have intellectual awareness before their fall?

Oh yes, it's all Eve's fault, not Adam's. She was too weak to handle this alone, if she only stayed close to Adam, right? (Of course we won't mention about the fact that God provide an unhedge tree for them to fall into, plus providing a tree promoter -- a master mind that recently succeeded to make 1/3 of strong angelic minds fall. Let's keep these facts hidden and out of the discussion. eek)
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Parents give the stamp of character to their children. Children that are born of these parents inherit qualities of mind from them which are of a low and base order. Satan nourishes anything tending to corruption. {SA 174.2}

Stamp of character = qualities of mind.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:28 AM

God’s character is in-printed in every cells of our body by continually demonstrating the selflessness in serving one another. The cells are in harmony with each other. They know God’s voice(spirit) when He activates the necessary genes in the appointed time orchestrating every individual cells in their task to keep the body alive.

It is our mind/brain wirering/heart that is out of harmony with the body and is totally selfish, often disconnected with others around us, and unable to hear God’s voice.

At birth it is well proven scientifically that a baby does inherit also the mind wirering pattern of their parents to some extend. I do not know how much and I think that’s hard to quantify, however, they do know that it is inherited seeing many studies showing this. One scientist has shown this via training fruit flies tricks which this knowledge(a wirering) is pass down to the next generation which makes them faster to learn the trick and develop it further in the next generation, and so on and so forth. So in another word, tricks, bad habits, fears, etc… are past down.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
When we study what Ellen wrote about the topic of character, I believe it is clear she taught character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

Where do these "choices and conduct" come from? Are they random and beyond the person's control? Or is there something in a person that drives him to make the choices he makes?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
We inherit traits and tendencies, with which we cultivate character, but we do not inherit character.

Then what do you make of EGW's statement that character can be bequeathed?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
As you know, Ellen makes it clear character will, during judgment, determine our eternal destiny. With this in mind, do you believe people will be judged based on the "character" they inherited?

Nobody will be judged by the character they inherited, as far as I know.

Even so, we are told that we inherit deformed characters. Therefore, our inheritance must not be the determining factor in salvation, despite what is commonly taught by both extreme liberals and extreme conservatives.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did John the Baptist, who was "filled with the Holy Ghost" from birth, inherit a holy character?

No. His parents were sinners.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {HP 164.2}

That's true. (As if I was going to disagree with the SOP. smile )

If we are born without character, then either the thoughts or the feelings or both are missing. I know that there are those who teach that babies do not have thoughts or feelings. But that's not us.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:43 AM

Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

A screaming newborn has a character.

Every parent knows this by experience.


And every careful student of the Bible & SOP can learn this by study - without the pitfalls of 'experience by experimentation.'

IOW, we do not require experience to make informed decisions.

God can and will teach us His appointed way.

That's true. But I have encountered many people who have definite theories about what children are or are not, without the benefit of any close dealings with children. One such person, when I asked her if she has any children, said that she does not have any, but teaches the Juniors SS class at church. It is astounding how much some people think they know about parenting, without ever being a parent.

The SOP tells us that even Enoch grew closer to God after he had a child. Even the closest knowledge of God can be enhanced by experiencing the doctrines first-hand.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Are you advocating intellectual awareness sufficient to prevent any fall? A&E did they have intellectual awareness before their fall?

I'll let Gordon answer for himself, but.....

Babies have very little intellectual awareness in the sense that adults have them. Or maybe a more accurate description is that they lack the information to make wise choices. Coupled with natural selfishness, this ignorance usually spells trouble, and many sleepless nights. "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child."

As for A&E, they were adults, and given clear instructions: don't eat the fruit of that tree. It was certainly well within their abilities to keep from falling. Just don't go near the dangerous tree!

The fact that there was no physical hedge around the tree does not diminish the fact that God placed a "meta-hedge" by instructing them. The test then became one of faith in God. There was neither a physical barrier to keep them away from the tree, nor a physical force that drew them to the tree. It all depended on their choice. But if they trusted God, they would keep away and be safe.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
It is our mind/brain wirering/heart that is out of harmony with the body and is totally selfish, often disconnected with others around us, and unable to hear God’s voice.

That, in a nutshell, is the crux of our problem. We are, by nature, alienated from God. But the primary alienation is in our selfish minds and hearts. Hence, we are told that we need transformation by the renewing of our minds.
Posted By: Elle

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Elle
God’s character is in-printed in every cells of our body by continually demonstrating the selflessness in serving one another. The cells are in harmony with each other. They know God’s voice(spirit) when He activates the necessary genes in the appointed time orchestrating every individual cells in their task to keep the body alive.

It is our mind/brain wirering/heart that is out of harmony with the body and is totally selfish, often disconnected with others around us, and unable to hear God’s voice.

That, in a nutshell, is the crux of our problem. We are, by nature, alienated from God.

Just to make a slight emphasis. Notice my first paragraph. Our body by nature is in harmony with God, it is only the wirering of the brain that is not. And this confused-mis-wirering, to some level, is past down to our children.
Quote:
But the primary alienation is in our selfish minds and hearts. Hence, we are told that we need transformation by the renewing of our minds.
I agree.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: Character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

R: No. EGW is clear - God gave a character to Adam; God created Adam with a character similar to His. "God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. {AG 344.3} We are born with a character baggage. This character we are born with begins then to be developed.

Character is made up of thoughts and feelings. These originate the choices and conduct and are, at the same time, influenced by them. "If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {HP 164.2}

1. How do you reconcile the quotes I posted in my previous post (omitted above) with the idea we are born with "character"?

2. Are we born with sinless character? If not, why not?

3. Was John the Baptist born with sinless character? If so, how so?

4. Will people who die before the age of accountability be judged according to the character they inherited at birth?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: asygo
M: When we study what Ellen wrote about the topic of character, I believe it is clear she taught character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

A: Where do these "choices and conduct" come from? Are they random and beyond the person's control? Or is there something in a person that drives him to make the choices he makes?

Choices happen when people use their faculties of mind to make decisions. Conduct happens when people act on their choices. Prior to experiencing rebirth, people are slaves and servants of sin, self, and Satan, and are, therefore, incapable of making choices that yield sinless conduct and character.

Quote:
M: We inherit traits and tendencies, with which we cultivate character, but we do not inherit character.

A: Then what do you make of EGW's statement that character can be bequeathed?

I believe it means traits and tendencies are passed on.

Quote:
M: As you know, Ellen makes it clear character will, during judgment, determine our eternal destiny. With this in mind, do you believe people will be judged based on the "character" they inherited?

A: Nobody will be judged by the character they inherited, as far as I know. Even so, we are told that we inherit deformed characters. Therefore, our inheritance must not be the determining factor in salvation, despite what is commonly taught by both extreme liberals and extreme conservatives.

Do you think our inheritance is a factor in our damnation or condemnation? Also, why wouldn't inherited deformity of character be a factor in judgment? If inheriting deformity of character has no bearing on our eternal destiny, what differences does it make?

Quote:
M: Did John the Baptist, who was "filled with the Holy Ghost" from birth, inherit a holy character?

A: No. His parents were sinners.

Did he inherit lovely traits of character from his sinful parents? Ellen wrote, "Children inherit inclinations to wrong, but they also have many lovely traits of character."
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/10/11 09:22 PM

Quote:
1. How do you reconcile the quotes I posted in my previous post (omitted above) with the idea we are born with "character"?

Is a baby born with a personality? Of course yes. He/she is born with personality traits which will be developed as he/she grows. The same is true of character. We are born with good and bad moral traits which form our character, and this character begins to be developed from the moment we are born.

Quote:
2. Are we born with sinless character? If not, why not?

Because we are born with sinful/defective tendencies/traits.

Quote:
3. Was John the Baptist born with sinless character? If so, how so?

No human being was ever born with a sinless character, except Christ.

Quote:
4. Will people who die before the age of accountability be judged according to the character they inherited at birth?

No, we can't be judged for what we inherited, just for what we consciously did with what we inherited.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/11/11 07:22 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Is a baby born with a personality? Of course yes. He/she is born with personality traits which will be developed as he/she grows. The same is true of character. We are born with good and bad moral traits which form our character, and this character begins to be developed from the moment we are born.

Perhaps it's merely a matter of semantics, but I cannot help thinking the differences between traits and character, as Ellen employed them, is important. I agree with you we are born with the traits and tools necessary to cultivate character, the kind of character that matters in judgment; however, I do not believe we are born with this kind of character. You seem to agree.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
4. Will people who die before the age of accountability be judged according to the character they inherited at birth?

R: No, we can't be judged for what we inherited, just for what we consciously did with what we inherited.

What difference, then, does it make? That is, what difference does inheriting sinful character make if we are not judged accordingly? Are we corrupted or contaminated bY it?

Also, what about the "many lovely traits of character" children receive as a birthright? "Children inherit inclinations to wrong, but they also have many lovely traits of character. These should be strengthened and developed, while the tendencies to evil should be carefully guarded against and repressed." {RH, January 24, 1907 par. 7} Are these "lovely traits" sinful or sinless?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/11/11 09:04 PM

Quote:
What difference, then, does it make? That is, what difference does inheriting sinful character make if we are not judged accordingly? Are we corrupted or contaminated bY it?

Our sinful traits won't condemn us in the judgment but they constitute sins of ignorance (until we become conscious of them) and make us in need of a Saviour.

Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

The nature of man is in opposition to the divine will, depraved, deformed, and wholly unlike the character of God expressed in his law. {ST, June 9, 1890 par. 12}

Quote:
Also, what about the "many lovely traits of character" children receive as a birthright? ... Are these "lovely traits" sinful or sinless?

A character may have many lovely traits, but if it has a single sinful trait, it is a sinful character.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/12/11 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: What difference, then, does it make? That is, what difference does inheriting sinful character make if we are not judged accordingly? Are we corrupted or contaminated by it?

R: Our sinful traits won't condemn us in the judgment but they constitute sins of ignorance (until we become conscious of them) and make us in need of a Saviour. "Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7} "The nature of man is in opposition to the divine will, depraved, deformed, and wholly unlike the character of God expressed in his law. {ST, June 9, 1890 par. 12}

How can we cultivate a sinful trait of character without realizing we are sinning?

Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature. I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

Also, if the character we inherit from our parents requires the atoning blood of Jesus, will it condemn the unsaved in judgment?

Quote:
M: Also, what about the "many lovely traits of character" children receive as a birthright? ... Are these "lovely traits" sinful or sinless?

R: A character may have many lovely traits, but if it has a single sinful trait, it is a sinful character.

I agree one sinful trait renders the entire character sinful. However, I do not believe it is possible to possess a sinless character save one sinful trait (and vice versa). Do you agree?

Also, is the "many" inherited "lovely traits" Ellen mentioned above the same as sinless traits of character?

PS - I cannot help thinking the differences between traits and character, as Ellen employed them, is important. I agree with you we are born with the traits and tools necessary to cultivate character, the kind of character that matters in judgment; however, I do not believe we are born with this kind of character (as opposed to the kind of character you say doesn't matter in judgment). Do you agree?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/12/11 08:37 PM

Quote:
How can we cultivate a sinful trait of character without realizing we are sinning?

It's easy. We begin to do that as babies.

Quote:
Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature. I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

Jesus condemns our sinful nature, because it is in disharmony with His character and law, but He doesn't condemn us because of our nature. As I said, our sinful traits/tendencies are sins of ignorance until we become conscious of them.

Quote:
Also, if the character we inherit from our parents requires the atoning blood of Jesus, will it condemn the unsaved in judgment?

No, I believe the blood of Jesus makes provision for the sins of ignorance of all human beings. Men will be condemned by the acts they did which they somehow knew were wrong.

Quote:
I agree one sinful trait renders the entire character sinful. However, I do not believe it is possible to possess a sinless character save one sinful trait (and vice versa). Do you agree?

Yes, if I understood correctly what you said.

Quote:
Also, is the "many" inherited "lovely traits" Ellen mentioned above the same as sinless traits of character?

I suppose so.

Quote:
I cannot help thinking the differences between traits and character, as Ellen employed them, is important. I agree with you we are born with the traits and tools necessary to cultivate character, the kind of character that matters in judgment; however, I do not believe we are born with this kind of character (as opposed to the kind of character you say doesn't matter in judgment). Do you agree?

I don't believe we will be condemned by the character we inherit at birth. Is this what you are asking?
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/12/11 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature.

God does not condemn the "sinful" body. He condemns the "sinful" mind.

The flesh is amoral, merely the tool to act out our passions and desires. But the unholy passions and desires get us in trouble.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

He condemns our unholy clamorings, but not us? Sounds like my father when he says he wants to obey God, but his sinful nature causes him to sin. So when he is committing adultery, he is guiltless because it's his sinful nature doing it, not him. Even though he is sinning, he really wants to obey.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/12/11 11:50 PM

Quote:
He condemns our unholy clamorings, but not us? Sounds like my father when he says he wants to obey God, but his sinful nature causes him to sin. So when he is committing adultery, he is guiltless because it's his sinful nature doing it, not him. Even though he is sinning, he really wants to obey.

Arnold, just an explanation. When I said God does not condemn us for our sinful tendencies/traits, I meant before the age of accountability, or before we become conscious of them.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/13/11 10:56 PM

R,

I agree with what you said. We are not condemned for sins of ignorance, including our natural selfishness, because God has provided a solution - Christ's sacrifice. I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is the idea that selfishness is acceptable to God as long as you can prevent your body from acting it out.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/14/11 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: How can we cultivate a sinful trait of character without realizing we are sinning?

R: It's easy. We begin to do that as babies.

Yes, I agree we begin sinning by default the moment we are capable of consciousness.

Quote:
M: Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature. I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

R: Jesus condemns our sinful nature, because it is in disharmony with His character and law, but He doesn't condemn us because of our nature. As I said, our sinful traits/tendencies are sins of ignorance until we become conscious of them.

Are you suggesting sinful flesh nature and sinful character are one and the same thing?

Quote:
M: Also, if the character we inherit from our parents requires the atoning blood of Jesus, will it condemn the unsaved in judgment?

R: No, I believe the blood of Jesus makes provision for the sins of ignorance of all human beings. Men will be condemned by the acts they did which they somehow knew were wrong.

Please name some inherited sinful traits of character adults cultivate (act out) without realizing they are sinning, sinful traits of character which are covered by the atoning blood of Jesus and will not, therefore, count against them in judgment.

Quote:
M: I agree one sinful trait renders the entire character sinful. However, I do not believe it is possible to possess a sinless character save one sinful trait (and vice versa). Do you agree?

R: Yes, if I understood correctly what you said.

I mean character cannot consist of sinful and sinless traits. It is either altogether sinful or altogether sinless.

Quote:
M: Also, is the "many" inherited "lovely traits" Ellen mentioned above the same as sinless traits of character?

R: I suppose so.

Wouldn't that imply babies are born with sinful and sinless traits of character?

Quote:
M: I cannot help thinking the differences between traits and character, as Ellen employed them, is important. I agree with you we are born with the traits and tools necessary to cultivate character, the kind of character that matters in judgment; however, I do not believe we are born with this kind of character (as opposed to the kind of character you say doesn't matter in judgment). Do you agree?

R: I don't believe we will be condemned by the character we inherit at birth. Is this what you are asking?

Sort of. I understand you believe the sinful character we inherit and act out from birth will not count against us in judgment (if we are ignorant of wrongdoing) because the blood of Jesus covers all such sins. As you say, only the sinful character we ourselves cultivate (knowing full well we are guilty of wrongdoing) will condemn us in judgment.

I agree the blood of Jesus covers sins of ignorance. And, I agree nothing we inherit will condemn us in judgment; however, I do not believe it's because the blood of Jesus covers our hereditary sinfulness (a state of being as opposed to a state of doing). I do not believe the blood of Jesus must cover our sinful flesh nature or else we would stand guilty and condemned in the sight of God because of it. It is not a sin to possess sinful flesh nature. Possessing it does not cause corruption or contamination or condemnation. The only thing that requires the covering blood of Jesus is the sins we ourselves commit and repent of.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/14/11 01:43 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature.

A: God does not condemn the "sinful" body. He condemns the "sinful" mind. The flesh is amoral, merely the tool to act out our passions and desires. But the unholy passions and desires get us in trouble.

I agree sinful mind and sinful flesh are two different aspects of human nature. But, where in the Bible or the SOP does it imply the "flesh is amoral"? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

She says sinful flesh tempts us from within by producing unholy lusts (desires) and affections, corrupt thoughts, and animal propensities, which, by the grace of God, we must resist or rein in unto the honor and glory of God. She doesn't make it sound like the flesh is amoral. It sounds like the flesh generates unholy thoughts and feelings actively warring against us tempting us from within to express our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.

Quote:
M: I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

A: He condemns our unholy clamorings, but not us? Sounds like my father when he says he wants to obey God, but his sinful nature causes him to sin. So when he is committing adultery, he is guiltless because it's his sinful nature doing it, not him. Even though he is sinning, he really wants to obey.

Elsewhere you commented:

Quote:
We are not condemned for sins of ignorance, including our natural selfishness, because God has provided a solution - Christ's sacrifice. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the idea that selfishness is acceptable to God as long as you can prevent your body from acting it out.

It sounds like we're talking past each other. The clamorings of sinful flesh constitute temptations - not sinning. In the AH 127 passage I posted above she makes it clear the flesh cannot commit a sin, that it can only tempt us to sin. Being tempted from within in this way does not count as a sin; nor does it cause corruption or contamination or condemnation.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/17/11 07:33 PM

Bump for Rosangela and Arnold.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/18/11 02:54 AM

Quote:
M: Where does it say Jesus condemns us because we possess sinful flesh nature. I read where it says Jesus condemns the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature, but I haven't read where He condemns us because of it.

R: Jesus condemns our sinful nature, because it is in disharmony with His character and law, but He doesn't condemn us because of our nature. As I said, our sinful traits/tendencies are sins of ignorance until we become conscious of them.

M: Are you suggesting sinful flesh nature and sinful character are one and the same thing?

Mike, there's no "sinful flesh nature," there's sinful nature. EGW uses the terms "character" and "nature" synonymously. Thus, being a partaker of the divine nature can only mean being a partaker of the divine character. A transformation of nature can only mean a transformation of character:

"Christ says: Open the door of your heart; give Me entrance, and I will make you a child of God. I will transform your weak, sinful nature into the divine image, giving it beauty and perfection." {TMK 106.3}

Quote:
Please name some inherited sinful traits of character adults cultivate (act out) without realizing they are sinning, sinful traits of character which are covered by the atoning blood of Jesus and will not, therefore, count against them in judgment.

I think it's possible sometimes to manifest selfishness without realizing it - at least not at the moment.

"At another time during their early evangelistic labors, James and John met one who, while not an acknowledged follower of Christ, was casting out devils in His name. The disciples forbade the man to work and thought they were right in doing this. But when they laid the matter before Christ, He reproved them... The disciples must not indulge a narrow, exclusive spirit... James and John had thought that in checking this man they had in view the Lord's honor; but they began to see that they were jealous for their own. They acknowledged their error and accepted the reproof." {AA 543.3}

Quote:
I mean character cannot consist of sinful and sinless traits. It is either altogether sinful or altogether sinless.

I'm not sure about that. I think good traits are good, and bad traits are bad. I think bad traits are sinful traits. But, in the same way some drops of poison contaminate a whole jar of juice, some sinful traits make the whole character sinful.

Quote:
however, I do not believe it's because the blood of Jesus covers our hereditary sinfulness (a state of being as opposed to a state of doing). I do not believe the blood of Jesus must cover our sinful flesh nature or else we would stand guilty and condemned in the sight of God because of it.

What do you think this means?

"Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God." {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/18/11 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: rosangela
M: . . . however, I do not believe it's because the blood of Jesus covers our hereditary sinfulness (a state of being as opposed to a state of doing). I do not believe the blood of Jesus must cover our sinful flesh nature or else we would stand guilty and condemned in the sight of God because of it.

R: What do you think this means? "Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God." {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

Yes, anything and everything sinful is justly condemned by God. But in Christ we are justly declared sinless. However, the sinful flesh aspect of human nature (a.k.a sinful flesh nature) continues to be sinful and condemned.

Regarding the rest of your post, I agree it is the character we ourselves cultivate (not anything we inherit at birth) that will determine our eternal destiny during judgment.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/18/11 08:27 PM

I'm not sure I understood your position. If our sinful nature is condemned by God and we can only be declared sinless because of Christ, how did things work in Christ's case? Was His sinful nature condemned?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/19/11 06:34 PM

Jesus bore the sins of the world in His sinful flesh nature. God justly condemns sins and sinfulness. However, in the case of Jesus, He was born in a born-again state, meaning He was born with all the implanted "new" traits and attributes. He never sinned. Therefore, He was sinless. His inherited baggage was sinful and condemned, but the character He Himself cultivated was sinless and uncondemned. It's the same thing as you saying the inherited character we are born with does not condemn us in the sight of God. The reason God "declares" us sinless is due to the fact He must pardon past sins and in its place apply the benefits of Jesus' blood and righteousness. Nevertheless, we are also, here and now, in reality "righteous even as he is righteous."
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/20/11 12:38 AM

Quote:
God justly condemns sins and sinfulness. However, in the case of Jesus, He was born in a born-again state, meaning He was born with all the implanted "new" traits and attributes.

In that case, we wouldn't be condemned because we are born again?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/22/11 04:30 AM

Correct - "we" (born-again believers) are not condemned while we are abiding in Jesus. Nevertheless, our sinful flesh continues to stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness.
Posted By: asygo

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/22/11 05:25 AM

Just time for a quickie....

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus bore the sins of the world in His sinful flesh nature. God justly condemns sins and sinfulness. However, in the case of Jesus, He was born in a born-again state, meaning He was born with all the implanted "new" traits and attributes. He never sinned. Therefore, He was sinless.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Correct - "we" (born-again believers) are not condemned while we are abiding in Jesus. Nevertheless, our sinful flesh continues to stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness.

Is this how Jesus was? Did His flesh "stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness"?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/27/17 02:34 PM

Quote:
Is this how Jesus was? Did His flesh "stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness"?

I know this was asked almost six years ago without a response from anybody.

What is the response/answer to that question?
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/27/17 08:39 PM

Daryl,

I believe some here have misconceptions that lead to large theological errors. Mrs. White is clear. The flesh is not sinful.

Think about it. If our flesh were sinful, then until we are changed into our immortal bodies, we are all hopelessly sinful, and could never hope to reflect the character of Christ.

What Jesus had, in terms of our "sinful nature," was simply the sin-weakened human flesh affected by about 4000 years of sin. That's it. Nothing more. He never sinned by so much as a thought. The flesh, apart from a decision made in the mind, cannot sin of itself, and is not sinful--neither for Christ, nor for us.

Related note: At the time Jesus entered the Garden of Gethsemane, the sins of the world were placed upon Him--not His sins, but ours--just as the sacrificial lambs were innocently made victims of others' sins, sins symbolically placed upon them by laying hands on their heads before slitting their throats.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}


If not even our flesh can act contrary to the will of God, much less could Christ's, Who never sinned at all. If the flesh does not act contrary to God's will, why should it stand condemned in His sight? We are not condemned because we are human. We are condemned because we are sinners. Christ's humanity was not under God's condemnation. God said at Jesus' baptism, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." That doesn't sound like condemnation, does it?
Posted By: APL

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/27/17 09:13 PM

Read Romans chapters 5 through 8, particularly 7. It is true, "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God", and Christ taking on sinful flesh, never participated in its sin, His character was spotless. He kept the law in our sinful flesh.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/28/17 01:32 AM

Quote:
The flesh is not sinful


Just a question --
If the flesh is not sinful why is it called sinful flesh?

The flesh contains the "carnal lusts" and "embraces the lower, corrupt nature" with its "animal propensities".
( those words are from the very quote given)

So yes the flesh is sinful.

Now it's true the flesh cannot do anything on its own, either against or according to the will of God. Just like a severed arm cannot lift anything, and a severed leg cannot walk, or a quadriplegic whose limbs of flesh have no nerves connecting them to the brain center can do nothing.
The "flesh" needs the brain to tell it what it should and should not do.

The problem however arises in the fact that the brain is also part of the "sinful flesh".
The brain can be divided into two major parts: the lower brain stem and the higher forebrain. The forebrain deals with decision making, emotions, conscious actions, and intelligence.

This part of the brain needs to be tuned in to God, totally, in order to bring into "subjection to the higher powers" the sinful flesh.

However, there is also the "lower brain stem" that takes care of things without consulting the "higher brain". It carries out many vital functions of the body for maintenance and survival such as breathing, heartbeat, and blood pressure, digestion, sleeping and waking, sneezing and swallowing. It is the body’s “autopilot.”

The problem is that "autopilot" tends to be the 'default' mind condition for a large percentage of our waking time as well. Habits learned are done WITHOUT THINKING. Natural emotions jump in before we even turn on the "higher levels" of the brain.

For example -- you drive along, your mind in "autopilot" you've driven it so often you make all the right turns without even thinking, suddenly someone cuts in front of you. You slam on your brakes and feel scared and indignant and start cursing under your breath about the rudeness and stupidity of the other driver. All of that was "auto-pilot" reaction, without actual making a deliberate choice of any kind.

Another example of "auto-pilot" -- you did make a choice to go shopping, hop into the car, and after driving for a while you find yourself at your work place -- "auto-pilot" took over and told your flesh which turns to take, (your usual travel route, but not the one you had intended to take that day!}

Thus it is with sin.
Auto pilot will tell your flesh to sin. And you will sin without even thinking!

To break the "auto pilot" of sinful behavior takes --
first of all --

1. Constant abiding in Christ -- to be tuned in to God, totally, in order to bring into "subjection to the higher powers" the sinful flesh.
2. Intentional thinking. It's so easy to lapse into "auto pilot" thinking, letting the mind wander into whatever information is already stored in your brain.
3. Filling the mind with truth, so when the mind does go into "auto pilot" it will find truth in your brain to mull over.
4. Building productive habits, so when you lapse into "auto pilot" you will do the good.
5. First and last -- constant abiding in Christ, pray without ceasing, depend upon Christ, reflect upon His life, -- that's where the real battle is! Stop focusing on self, and focus on Christ, He will write His laws in your heart and mind.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/28/17 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Richard
when overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

Though I have seen some evidence in support of this, I'm not ready to say that the desire to sin entirely disappears. Here are texts:
Quote:
"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." (Galatians 5:17)

From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done. There is wrestling with inbred sin; there is warfare against outward wrong. {RH, November 29, 1887 par. 12}


I agree with asygo.
Focusing on "when we overcome sin" is a dangerous thing.
I have been fully convinced that when our goal is "victory" we set ourselves up for defeat, because it is SELF-CENTERED.

Yes, -- we have sinful flesh and will have it till this corruptible shall put on incorruption. And that sinful flesh will continue to urge sinful behavior and emotions, sinful reactions, and sinful desires.
It's true, those desires may shift, the more flagrant sins will definitely loose their appeal and become abhorrent to us, as we draw closer to Christ, but the Holy Spirit is constantly finding new corners of uncleanliness in our lives and pushes us into cleaning them out.

There are not only the flagrant sins of transgression, there are so many sins of lacking love, patience, gentleness. There are so many sins of omission, and selfishness and pride. The work of sanctification is not something we ARRIVE at, it is an ongoing work ALL OUR LIVES.

Our job is to ABIDE IN CHRIST, always, walking with Him in obedience every day of our lives. As soon as we THINK we have the victory over sin, we start patting ourselves on the back and stop relying on Christ, and the devil will move in with a double whammy, and completely overthrow us.
Posted By: dedication

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 08/28/17 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Quote:
Is this how Jesus was? Did His flesh "stand condemned in the sight of God due to its sinfulness"?

I know this was asked almost six years ago without a response from anybody.

What is the response/answer to that question?


People have argued that one for centuries.
Some think they have the answer, but how can know.

Christ took on the flesh that was fully human, with defects that 4000 years of sin had wrought upon the human race.
He faced temptation.

Yet, we are warned:

" Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}



Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be.--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, pp. 1128, 1129. {7ABC 448.2}
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/20/23 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by dedication
Quote
The flesh is not sinful


Just a question --
If the flesh is not sinful why is it called sinful flesh?

The flesh contains the "carnal lusts" and "embraces the lower, corrupt nature" with its "animal propensities".
( those words are from the very quote given)

So yes the flesh is sinful.

Now it's true the flesh cannot do anything on its own, either against or according to the will of God. Just like a severed arm cannot lift anything, and a severed leg cannot walk, or a quadriplegic whose limbs of flesh have no nerves connecting them to the brain center can do nothing.
The "flesh" needs the brain to tell it what it should and should not do.

The problem however arises in the fact that the brain is also part of the "sinful flesh".
The brain can be divided into two major parts: the lower brain stem and the higher forebrain. The forebrain deals with decision making, emotions, conscious actions, and intelligence.

This part of the brain needs to be tuned in to God, totally, in order to bring into "subjection to the higher powers" the sinful flesh.

However, there is also the "lower brain stem" that takes care of things without consulting the "higher brain". It carries out many vital functions of the body for maintenance and survival such as breathing, heartbeat, and blood pressure, digestion, sleeping and waking, sneezing and swallowing. It is the body’s “autopilot.”

The problem is that "autopilot" tends to be the 'default' mind condition for a large percentage of our waking time as well. Habits learned are done WITHOUT THINKING. Natural emotions jump in before we even turn on the "higher levels" of the brain.

For example -- you drive along, your mind in "autopilot" you've driven it so often you make all the right turns without even thinking, suddenly someone cuts in front of you. You slam on your brakes and feel scared and indignant and start cursing under your breath about the rudeness and stupidity of the other driver. All of that was "auto-pilot" reaction, without actual making a deliberate choice of any kind.

Another example of "auto-pilot" -- you did make a choice to go shopping, hop into the car, and after driving for a while you find yourself at your work place -- "auto-pilot" took over and told your flesh which turns to take, (your usual travel route, but not the one you had intended to take that day!}

Thus it is with sin.
Auto pilot will tell your flesh to sin. And you will sin without even thinking!

To break the "auto pilot" of sinful behavior takes --
first of all --

1. Constant abiding in Christ -- to be tuned in to God, totally, in order to bring into "subjection to the higher powers" the sinful flesh.
2. Intentional thinking. It's so easy to lapse into "auto pilot" thinking, letting the mind wander into whatever information is already stored in your brain.
3. Filling the mind with truth, so when the mind does go into "auto pilot" it will find truth in your brain to mull over.
4. Building productive habits, so when you lapse into "auto pilot" you will do the good.
5. First and last -- constant abiding in Christ, pray without ceasing, depend upon Christ, reflect upon His life, -- that's where the real battle is! Stop focusing on self, and focus on Christ, He will write His laws in your heart and mind.






I always compare it to a virus that spreads, and only Christ has the antidote. But He had to go into the 'pandemic' of the world so was exposed, yet it did not infect Him, but still He carried the 'stima' on His shoulders..
Posted By: Garywk

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/21/23 06:31 AM

The single best resource on the nature of Christ I have ever found is SDABC vol. 7A. Here is a quote from it.

Quote
Christ came to the earth, taking humanity, and standing as man?s
representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as
God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey
every divine requirement.
?The Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898.
Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, con-
nected with God and beloved by God, He began where the first Adam
began
. Willingly He passed over the ground where Adam fell, and
redeemed Adam?s failure.?The Youth?s Instructor, June 2, 1898.
In the fullness of time He was to be revealed in human form.
He was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the
nature but not the sinfulness of man. In heaven was heard the voice,
?The Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from
transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.??The Signs of the Times,
May 29, 1901.
When Christ bowed His head and died, He bore the pillars of
Satan?s kingdom with Him to the earth. He vanquished Satan in the
same nature over which in Eden Satan obtained the victory
. The
enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of
the Saviour?s Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature,
relying upon God for power.?The Youth?s Instructor, April 25,
1901.
In taking upon Himself man?s nature in its fallen condition,
Christ did not in the least participate in its sin
. He was subject
to the infirmities and weaknesses by which man is encompassed,
?that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet,
saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.? He
was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points
tempted like as we are. And yet He ?knew no sin
.? He was the
Lamb ?without blemish and without spot.? Could Satan in the least
particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the
Saviour?s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the
head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would
have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it
came upon Adam.... [b]We should have no misgivings in regard to
the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ.[/b[?The S.D.A.
Bible Commentary 5:1131.


For decades I understood Christ was born with our sinful nature and then I heard a guy I went to academy with say the opposite. I was positive he spoke heresy and I began looking for the proof of it. It took me 3+ decades and I ended up proving myself wrong. It's a ground shaking change in theology when a major change like that occurs as a person has to change a lot of their ideas to accommodate the new understanding of truth.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 10/21/23 06:45 AM

Here is more from SDABC vol. 7A.

Quote
Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the
human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man
with the propensities of sin
. He is the second Adam. The first Adam
was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him;
he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through
transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent
propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten
Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted
in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He
could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil
propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as
Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden
.?The S.D.A. Bible
Commentary 5:1128.
[448]
The Son of God humbled Himself and took man?s nature after
the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from
their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making
its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and
moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family. When
Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden he was without the taint
of sin.... Christ, in the wilderness of temptation, stood in Adam?s
place to bear the test he failed to endure
.?The Review and Herald,
July 28, 1874.
Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which
is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of pre-
sumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to
guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean
more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions
of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle
of God.... Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon
human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon
Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption
. He was tempted
in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called ?that holy thing.?
It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could
be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The
incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery.
That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every
human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether
human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be
.?The S.D.A.
Bible Commentary 5:1128, 1129.
Posted By: Rick H

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... - 11/17/23 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by dedication
Originally Posted by asygo
Originally Posted by Richard
when overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

Though I have seen some evidence in support of this, I'm not ready to say that the desire to sin entirely disappears. Here are texts:
Quote
"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." (Galatians 5:17)

From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done. There is wrestling with inbred sin; there is warfare against outward wrong. {RH, November 29, 1887 par. 12}


I agree with asygo.
Focusing on "when we overcome sin" is a dangerous thing.
I have been fully convinced that when our goal is "victory" we set ourselves up for defeat, because it is SELF-CENTERED.

Yes, -- we have sinful flesh and will have it till this corruptible shall put on incorruption. And that sinful flesh will continue to urge sinful behavior and emotions, sinful reactions, and sinful desires.
It's true, those desires may shift, the more flagrant sins will definitely loose their appeal and become abhorrent to us, as we draw closer to Christ, but the Holy Spirit is constantly finding new corners of uncleanliness in our lives and pushes us into cleaning them out.

There are not only the flagrant sins of transgression, there are so many sins of lacking love, patience, gentleness. There are so many sins of omission, and selfishness and pride. The work of sanctification is not something we ARRIVE at, it is an ongoing work ALL OUR LIVES.

Our job is to ABIDE IN CHRIST, always, walking with Him in obedience every day of our lives. As soon as we THINK we have the victory over sin, we start patting ourselves on the back and stop relying on Christ, and the devil will move in with a double whammy, and completely overthrow us.
I was just told much the same thing, except of focusing on 'prophetic events'. If you just look for the 'events' and dont focus on Christ, what good does it do when God says 'It is done', and we say 'I nailed the event', and yet are not ready. Left me thinking.....
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