Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement?

Foretelling the rejection of the Investigative Judgement?



I came across this article that EGW wrote, and it struck me that this was about the Investigate Judgement, how some would refuse to accept it and get stuck in their rejection and refuse to go forward with the light being shown by Christ....

"...In February, 1845, I had a vision of events commencing with the Midnight Cry.
I saw a throne and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and
admired his lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious
light covered him.

I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself. He said he had, but I could not behold
it, for said he if you should once behold the glory of his person you would cease to exist.
Before the throne I saw the Advent people, the church, and the world. I saw a company,
bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the most of them stood up
disinterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their
prayers and look to Jesus; then he would look to his Father, and appeared to be pleading
with Him.

A light would come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son to the praying
company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and
from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great
light; many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and
did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them; some cherished it, and went and
bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light, and
rejoiced in it, as their countenances shone with its glory.

And I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming Chariot go into the Holy of
Holies, within the veil, and did sit. There I saw thrones that I had never seen before.
Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose
with Him; and I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after
he arose, and they were left in perfect darkness.

Those who rose up when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne
and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm and we heard his lovely voice
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saying, "Wait here--I am going to my Father to receive the Kingdom; keep your garments
spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to myself."
And I saw a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, and Angels were all around it
as it came where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the Holiest
where the Father sat.

There I beheld Jesus, as He was standing before the Father, a great High Priest. On the
hem of His garment was a bell and pomegranate.
Then Jesus shew me the difference between faith and feeling.
And I saw those who rose up with Jesus send up their faith to Him in the Holiest, and
pray--my Father give us thy Spirit. Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost.
In the breath was light, power, and much love, joy and peace.

Then I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did
not know that Jesus had left it.— Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on
the work of God; I saw them look up to the throne and pray, my Father give us thy Spirit;
then Satan would breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much
power, but no sweet love, joy and peace.

Satan's object was to keep them deceived, and to draw back and deceive God's children.
I saw one after another leave the company who were praying to Jesus in the Holiest, and
go and join those before the throne, and they at once received the unholy influence of
Satan.

About four months since I had a vision of events all in the future. I saw the time of
trouble, such as never was. Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble, and that we
should be delivered out of it by the voice of God.

Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence
and sword--nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion. Then we
cried to God day and night for deliverance, until we began to hear the bells on Jesus'
garment.

And I saw Jesus rise up in the Holiest, and as he came out we heard the tinkling of the
bells and knew that our High Priest was coming out. Then we heard the voice of God
which shook the heavens and the earth, and gave the 144,000 the day and hour of Jesus
coming. Then the saints were free, united, and full of the glory of God, for he has turned
their captivity.

And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus' stood. Then Jesus laid off his priestly
garment and put on his Kingly robe, and took his place on the cloud which carried him to
the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth— a small black cloud which was
the sign of the Son of Man.

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While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days,
the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saint's feet....."
("Early Writings," pp. 55, 56; ed. 1907).

Moved this here from another area of Maritime.

She foretells the rejection of the sanctuary doctrine.

"The Sanctuary a Point of Special Attack.--
In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith. Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years?-- Review and Herald, May 25, 1905. {CW 53.2}

Satan is striving continually to bring in fanciful suppositions in regard to the sanctuary, degrading the wonderful representations of God and the ministry of Christ for our salvation into something that suits the carnal mind. He removes its presiding power from the hearts of believers, and supplies its place with fantastic theories invented to make void the truths of the atonement, and destroy our confidence in the doctrines which we have held sacred since the third angel's message was first given. Thus he would rob us of our faith in the very message that has made us a separate people, and has given character and power to our work.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 17. (1905.) {CW 53.3}

I know that the sanctuary question stands in righteousness and truth, just as we have held it for so many years. It is the enemy that leads minds off on sidetracks. He is pleased when those who know the truth become engrossed in collecting scriptures to pile around erroneous theories, which have no foundation in truth. The scriptures thus used are misapplied; they were not given to substantiate error, but to strengthen truth.--Gospel Workers, p. 303. (1915.) {CW 54.1}

What Rick posted in his opening post of this thread contained some interesting information such as, and I quote:

This shows the move by both the Father and the Son from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place to begin the work of the Investigative Judgement, which obviously took place at the close of the 2,300 year prophecy of Daniel.

Do you know what these words by Jesus Christ are really saying?



Then, in conversation with the Pharisees, he says something interesting.



The sanctuary was a figure of IMMANUEL, was it not?
That the Messiah was going to die for the forgiveness of sins, was it not?
And was going to reach its fulfilment in His ministry, death, resurrection and ascension, was it not?

OR was there more to it?

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There are several applications to "temple" in scripture.

1. We are the "temple" of the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2. Jesus refers to His Body as "the temple"
John 2:20-21 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.

3. The church is called the "temple of God".
Eph. 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord:


Yet that does not destroy the fact that there is a sanctuary or temple in heaven in which Jesus officiates as our High Priest.

Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb. 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; (referring back to the earthly temple described in the verses previous)
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


And yes there is a temple IN heaven:
Notice this temple isn't all heaven, it is IN heaven.

Rev. 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:

Rev. 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven,
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice ...


Rev. 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple,

Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go....

What purpose does it serve?

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The earthly sanctuary was symbolic of Christ's work for the salvation of mankind.

The sanctuary has three parts --
The outer court with it's altar of sacrifice and laver of water is the first.

The outer court symbolizes Christ's work while He was a man here on earth.
The all sufficient sacrifice for our redemption was made at her on earth at Calvary. The sacrifice is fully complete and all sufficient but the work of salvation does not end there.

In the Levitical directions concerning the process of being forgiven, this sentence is oft repeated after the sacrifice is completed:

"and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him." 4:34; 5:6,10, 16, 18


So there is work for the PRIEST to do after the sacrifice.

The sanctuary, itself, is the place in which this work takes place.

People, in the OT service could see the sacrificial animals upon the altar and other activities in the courtyard, and in the same way people saw Christ baptized and crucified upon the cross. (His fulfilment of the outer court shadows)

BUT people could no longer watch the earthly priest as he entered the temple itself to do his work therein.

And so, after His sacrifice was complete Christ entered into the heavenly sanctuary (where we follow Him by faith, not by sight) He entered, not with the blood of animals but by His own precious all sufficient blood to do the work of the Priest to apply the work of atonement.


Hebrews 8:2 (Speaking of Christ) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

Jesus is not only the sacrifice but is also our High priest.
In Hebrews a picture is being drawn of Jesus in His High Priestly role at the right hand of God interceding for His people (see Hebrews 7: 25).

We have a powerful ally to save us from sin -- a wonderful high priest at the right hand of God.

What does it mean to have an intercessor?
Some will say that Christ has already paid the price for our sins (Hebrews 1: 3)so why do we need an intercessor?

Christ paid the penalty for our sins and applies His merits when we confess our sins. The idea of Christ applying His merits of salvation to people without our accepting our need for salvation is incongruous.
Matt. 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Scripture tells us that the way to life is narrow and only few find it because they are unwilling to travel the strait and narrow path. (see Matt. 7:14) They think they are saved and can still travel the broad way at the same time. They view God's law as too narrow but do not realize that law, if all would follow it would mean peace, joy, and true happiness. The broad way leads to destruction.

Like the chaff, the wicked are blown away in their supposed freedom but the righteous stand planted like a tree next to a stream.

1. EXACTLY what work did the earthly priest do in the temple? Can you quote the scriptures that support what you are saying?

2. Does Christ do EXACTLY the same thing in the "temple in heaven"?

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A type is never "exactly" like the real, but gives a representation of the real.

Heaven is a real place -- it's not just some spirits floating around. It is a real place. And though we don't know anything "exactly" to what the sanctuary in heaven looks like, yet scripture gives many references that there is indeed a temple in heaven -- a place where the sin problem is being dealt with by our High Priest and Intercessor.



So what did an earthly priest do in the Holy Place of the earthly sanctuary.

One thing was to offer incense by the altar of incense.

In Rev. 8:2 John sees "an angel" standing before the altar of incense with a golden censer --there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

We believe this is no ordinary angel, but the Creator of the angels -- Jesus, our High Priest in His intercessory work.

Others, also believe this as you will see in the quotes below:

This is what I asked


Do I take it that you have no scripture to show EXACTLY what the earthly priest did in the temple immediately after the sacrifice was made? And that you have no scripture to show that Christ did EXACTLY the same thing in "the temple in heaven"?

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"If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the Lord for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering. He shall bring the bull to the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the Lord, lay his hand on the bull's head, and kill the bull before the Lord. Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull's blood and bring it to the tabernacle of meeting. The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the Lord, in front of the veil of the sanctuary. And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense before the LORD that is in the tent of meeting" (Lev 4:3-7; see also v. 13-18).

The earthly sanctuary symbolizes the plan of salvation. It depicts the fact Jesus paid our sin debt of death. Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death. However, His life and death is part of a larger plan to save us from sin and death. Jesus must also justify forgiving and saving sinners. He is not at liberty to save everybody. He must also justify punishing unsavable sinners. He is not at liberty to punish everybody.

Exactly how the earthly and heavenly sanctuaries demonstrate the plan of salvation is fascinating. However, they come short of reality. For example, the services performed in the outer court symbolize Jesus' perfect death. But the reality is so much more. Also, the holy place symbolizes Jesus' perfect life. But, again, the reality is so much more.

Thank you. My second question to you is then ....

"2. Does Christ do EXACTLY the same thing in the "temple in heaven"? Can you provide the scriptural references that say so."

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It would be helpful if you could provide an answer to the second question I asked Rosangela in the preceding post, namely: "2. Does Christ do EXACTLY the same thing (as the earthly priest) in the "temple in heaven"? And where does it say so in the Bible?"

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Hello to all.

I don´t see how that verse is relevant to this discussion since it is referring to "unintentional sins" of the priest and obviously that cannot describe Jesus’ daily work on the sanctuary.

Blessings,

Luis

Then, would you be kind enough to answer the following questions:

1. EXACTLY what work did the earthly priest do in the temple (immediately after the sacrifice was made)? Could you quote the scriptures that support what you are saying?

2. Does Christ do EXACTLY the same thing in the "temple in heaven"?

Thank you.

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No, James. This was symbolic of what happens in heaven. Of course Christ did not sprinkle and is not now sprinkling His literal blood before God. But for the forgiveness of sin to occur, notice that two things were necessary: 1) the slaying of the sacrifice, and 2) the ministration of the blood.
Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice on earth, but, as a High Priest, He had to apply, in heaven, the benefits of His sacrifice to the sinner, for his forgiveness.

"Nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb 9:12).

The meaning is, as Barnes puts it, that as the priest bore the blood of the animal into the sanctuary, and sprinkled it there as the means of expiation, so the consideration on which Christ pleads for the pardon of his people, is the blood which he shed on Calvary. Having made the atonement, he now pleads the merit of it as a reason why sinners should be saved.

A type is used as a symbol which points forward to an antitype which is the fulfilment. For example , animal sacrifices were a type of Christ who is the antitypical Lamb of God (John 1: 29). Whenever a type is used in the Scriptures, the antitype or fulfilment is real and superior, encompassing far more than the type could ever portray, nevertheless, the type pointed forward to something REAL.

in the type, a sinner confessed his sins upon the head of the sacrificial animal, and then the animal was sacrificed signifying the penalty being paid for the sin. The story is not finished at that point, because either the blood was taken and sprinkled in the tabernacle, or the priest ate some of the flesh (Leviticus 6: 30; 10: 18). This signified a further transference of sin to God’s sanctuary. So when a repentant sinner confessed his sins, a transfer of that sin into the sanctuary occurred.


The earthly priest carrying the blood into the sanctuary and sprinkling it before the veil symbolized the merits of Christ's blood that is applied and covers the sins.

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The veil sprinkled with the sacrificial blood in the earthly temple was basically symbolic of the record of forgiven sins.

Romans 4:7 Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

All through the year the priest would partake of the sacrifice, or carry some of the blood into the sanctuary thus transferring the sins of the people into the sanctuary. Yet even though the sins are transferred into the sanctuary, the sanctuary itself remained holy, just as Jesus remains holy even though He bore our sins.

Welcome, Luis.
Well, first let me make clear that there was no atonement specified in the law for "intentional" sins (that is, willful sins), for which the penalty was death. Only "unintentional" sins could be atoned for.
Second, that form of atonement (in which the blood was brought within the sanctuary) was specified for the sins of priests and for the sins of the whole congregation of Israel (Lev. 4:13ff). In the case of the common sinner, the blood wasn't brought within the sanctuary, but the priest ate the flesh of the sacrifice (Lev 6:25, 26; 7:7), symbolically taking the sins of the person upon himself, as if they were his own (Lev 10:17). And, again, in the atonement for his own sins, the blood was taken inside the sanctuary.

Thank you.

1. The scripture you quoted (Heb. 9:12) is interesting. It says that Christ needed to do that ONLY ONCE for all time and everyone: "Nor by the blood of goats and calves, but BY HIS OWN BLOOD HE ENTERED ONCE FOR ALL into the Holies, having obtained eternal redemption FOR US."

2. Secondly, it says that His sacrifice on earth was the means of "our eternal redemption". Therefore, when He entered "into the Holies" (i.e. ascended into heaven), He was ALREADY in possession of "our eternal redemption".

3. What then was the purpose of HIS sacrifice? Was it:
a. for individual sins (being committed many times throughout the ages, past present and future), OR
b. for the sin of the world (i.e. Adam's fall and banishment from Paradise, once in the beginning -- under which all other, and every form of sin falls)?

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Paul is contrasting Christ's ministry with the ministry of earthly priests. They had to enter the sanctuary many times, and offer many sacrifices, but Christ offered Himself once for all and entered once for all into the sanctuary.


Through His sacrifice He obtained - or secured - eternal redemption for us. But this redemption must be individually appropriated.


It seems to me that the purpose of His sacrifice involves both things, for the following verses refer to individual sins.

Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1. Heb. 9:13-14 says, "For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, CLEANSE YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS to serve the living God?"

Therefore where is the "blood of Christ" sprinkled in the "temple of heaven" for cleansing? And what is this "blood of Christ"?

2. Heb. 9:15 says, "And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

What does it mean that his death was for "the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant"?

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As I pointed out in my last post, the sprinkling of the blood upon the inner veil of the earthly sanctuary symbolized a record of the "covered" sins of the penitent being transferred to the sanctuary.

Thus the sins are no longer upon the person, Christ has taken them upon Himself, as the lamb that was sacrificed, He then as the priest takes the record of those covered sins and transfers them to the sanctuary.

This reality, that whosoever confesses His sin is forgiven and cleansed (See 1 John 1:9) is what cleanses the conscience of dead works.
What are 'dead works' -- it is trying to erase our sins by doing penance, punishing ourselves in hopes of appeasing.

But Christ has taken our sins away, and covered them with His blood. And on the day of atonement all covered sins were forever disposed of. But all sins that people still clung to and refused to send into the sanctuary through the blood of the sacrifice, condemned them.









The blood of sheep, goats, or even bulls could not really take away sin. All this was a promise of the REALITY of what Christ would do. The people who followed God's plan in the OT were forgiven, but it was a promissory forgiveness based on the future death and priestly ministry of Christ.

Look again at the scripture I quoted and at the question I asked. I'm NOT asking about covered sins, transfer or disposal of sins.



Secondly, do you know what it really means for Christ to have died "for the redemption of ALL OLD COVENANT transgressions"? What does it mean to die "for the redemption of transgressions"?

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Paul is referring to symbolisms of the old covenant. If the sprinkling mentioned here, besides that done with the ashes of a heifer, refers also to the sprinkling of blood, Paul probably is referring to the sprinkling of people with blood (see v. 19, 20 of the same chapter). However, even if he was referring to the sprinkling of blood in the sanctuary, it should be remembered that, through the sacrifice and all that it involved, the person was purified because his/her sin was taken away.
As I said in my last post, the fact that, in the sanctuary of the old covenant, the blood of the victim was sprinkled before God for the forgiveness of the sinner, means that today Christ presents His blood (sacrifice) before God as a reason why the sinner should be forgiven. I think the symbolism is clear.


It means the following:

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, so the sins committed before the death of Christ were not punished. God does not forgive sins without punishing them. Since all sins were punished at the cross, the forgiveness granted before this was in promise, as Dedication pointed out.

Exactly? I doubt it. Jesus does so much more than is symbolized by priests officiating in the earthly sanctuary. Also, He doesn't literally sprinkle His blood. Nor does He spend one day in the most holy place. The essence is the same. His perfect life and death serves to save us. It also gives Him the legal right to punish unsavable sinners. Hebrews 7-9 explain it quite nicely.

James, the benefits of Jesus' atoning life and death have been available to sinners since the day Adam and Eve sinned. Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8). Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were in Heaven before Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death.

When you say "sins were punished at the cross" do you mean sinners were punished in Christ on the cross?

Well, it's not really clear to you.

Here is the conclusion Paul reaches where he takes the symbolism of SPRINKLING even further: "Let us draw near," he says, "with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." (Heb. 10:22)

In the quote I offered previously, he said, "... how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Heb. 9:15)

In other words, the "blood of Christ" does something remarkable to the believer. It is SPRINKLED on him and cleanses his conscience. Paul says our hearts are "sprinkled from an evil conscience" and again, "our conscience is cleansed from dead works" to serve the Living God.

There is a parallel scripture to this in John 7:37-39. "On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." Now look what John interprets this to mean: "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

In short, "the sprinkling of the blood of Christ in the temple of heaven" is the gift of the Holy Spirit to every believer in the Church so that he is born again of that Spirit, having received Divine forgiveness. The temple of God is the Church, and under the old covenant was symbolic of the congregation of Israel. There is no real temple in heaven.

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Well, it's not really clear to you.
The fact that the believer is cleansed from sin results from Christ's work in the sanctuary of heaven.

Heb 8:4,5 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things.

Heb 9:23,24 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Hello Rosangela,

You say that "there was no atonement specified in the law for "intentional" sins" and define "intentional" as "willful sins".

I believe that there was an there is an atonement for "intentional" sins; sins like those commited by David when he very "intentionally" took someone elses wife and later (and very "intentionally") ordered the murder of her husband.

Of course, the law was clear on the punishment for adultery:

Lev 20:10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

BTW, I also believe there is no atonement for some sins:

Mat 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

So here are some questions:

1. Were David's sins atoned?
2. If they were, how were they atoned?
3. Is Lev 20:10 implying a lack of atonement or simply a death sentence as in the case with the thief on the cross who, although received salvation, was punished by death?


Blessings and thanks for the welcome!

The heavenly things of which he speaks is NOT IN HEAVEN but OF HEAVEN. If you were born again, it is your conscience that was cleansed from evil works to serve God.

Paul quoting Jeremiah said in Heb. 8:10-12, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." (cf. 1 Pet. 2:4-5)

Have you not read where Jesus says to the paralytic in Mat. 9, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you"? And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!” But Jesus said, "that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins — then He said to the paralytic - Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house. And he arose and departed to his house."

We are the temple of God which was cleansed and made whole. We who were born again are OF HEAVEN, recipients of the gift of the rejuvenating Holy Spirit (the sprinkled "blood of Christ"). There is NOTHING in the real heaven that needs cleansing, even in the most remote of senses.

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"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."

So Christ did not enter "into heaven", but into the church... And "heaven itself" means the church...

James, do you expect me to believe that?

Not by the law. There was no sacrifice he could bring to atone for his sins.


They were atoned by Christ's sacrifice, that is, they were atoned under the promise of the new covenant, not under the dispositions of the old covenant. It's good to remember that the old covenant was just a teaching tool; it was not a covenant of grace and it could not provide salvation.


The thief on the cross died, not because he was being punished by God, but because he was being punished by the romans; the death penalty under the old covenant, however, was instituted by God.

It is very true that Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary has a very important counterpart with His people on earth.

It is also very true that Christ sends His Holy Spirit to make effective in the lives of His people the provisions He has made for their redemption and cleansing.

But there is more -- it's not just about us.

Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

And yes there is a sanctuary in heaven where the sin problem is dealt with -- legally and spiritually.




It is from this temple in heaven that angels of judgment are sent forth.


The ministry in the temple in heaven deals with the sin problem.

In that temple, not only is salvation's benefits (the blood and merits of Christ) applied to all who will respond to His Spirit and leading, there is also a thorough investigation into who will inherit eternal life and who will not.



Those whose sins were not transferred and covered by Christ's blood (forgiven through Christ's death) will have their names blotted out of those books.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

That is a very important part of Revelation for the saved will have their names inscribed in the lamb's book of life, while those whose names are not registered there, are worshipping at the wrong shrine and face destruction.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There is a difference between "into heaven" and "of heavenly things". This is the distinction made in Heb. 3: "For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house WE are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." (Heb. 3:4-6)

This Jesus also said in John 17, while praying for his disciples, "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." (v. 16-17)

In other words, Jesus Christ ascended into heaven and gave us the Holy Spirit, thus cleansing us of all unrighteousness here on earth. We are OF heaven (heavenly things, as it were) yet not IN heaven. Only He is IN heaven. There is NOTHING that needs cleansing IN heaven, even in the most remote of senses! (Rev. 22:14-15)

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Everything else you said beyond that point is a result of misguidance and misunderstanding. WE are the temple of God that was cleansed. The temple of God means the Church under the New Covenant and the Congregation of Israel under the OLD. It is, and was always, symbolic of the people of God HERE ON EARTH in both ages.

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1 & 2. Exactly, everyone, from Adam to the last person saved will be atoned by Jesus' sacrifice.

3. The purpose of the question was not to find out who punished the thief on the cross (although Romans 13:1-5 tells me something a bit different than your answer); the purpose is to find out if Lev 20:10 teaches us that sins like adultery are not atoned. Why the question? Because of something you stated and has been in my mind for a long time:

"there was no atonement specified in the law for 'intentional' sins"

If, as you stated and I also believe, "It's good to remember that the old covenant was just a teaching tool", what can we learn from the fact that in the law, there was no atonement speccified for 'intentional' sins?

Blessings.

Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

So do you dismiss the other passages of scripture?

For the people (as in all who profess to be Christians) will not all be cleansed or saved. There is a sanctuary in heaven where the sin problem is being dealt with by the One Who suffered and died for our cleansing and salvation and who will apply His merits to all who come to Him for cleansing, but He will also remove the names of all who profess, but do not follow.


The Bible plainly tells us that just like the patterns that were patterned after heavenly things needed to be purified, so the heavenly things themselves must be purified.



But should we be surprised that people will pull the place of God's sanctuary down to earth and claim that's all there is to it-- claim that there is no sanctuary in heaven?

No, it was already prophecied in Daniel that this would be done. It was already done by the Catholic Church, and though Protestantism reputed some of the errors of Catholism, it still seems the more popular push is to pull the place of God's sanctuary down to earth.


DANIEL 8:11 Yea, he (the horn power) magnified himself even to the prince of the host, (Christ is the captain and prince of the host) and by him (the little horn power) the daily [the word sacrifice was added and is not in original ] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. ......and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.



This evil began hundreds of years ago.
For it is this continual service of Christ, the true High Priest, "who continues ever," and "who is consecrated forevermore" in "an unchangeable priesthood" in the heavenly sanctuary where He entered with His own blood --it is this continual service in the heavenly sanctuary of our great High Priest, which the man of sin, has taken away. It is the sanctuary and the true tabernacle in which this true High Priest exercises His continual ministry that has been cast down by "the transgression of desolation."

By doing this, the "man of sin" takes the secondary meaning of "temple" which is the "church' and seats himself there as if he were "god". 2 Thes. 2.


Interesting as well is the quote about earthly "authority" attached to this discussion, for indeed "earthly authority" will claim to be the "authority" over who is saved and who is not in the coming crises.

But we have a more just and sure Judge and Savior, in the heavenly courts, it is He who presents the names of His faithful before the Father and His angels and it is they who will walk with Him in white throughout eternity.

James, if there is no temple in Heaven why, then, does the Bible say so?

Psalm 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Revelation
11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple
14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened
16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Hi Luis, welcome. Good question. Paul elaborates on the point:


John further clarifies the point:


Post-conversion sinning can be forgiven. So, is it possible the law teaches willful, deliberate, intentional sinning is unpardonable because "having their conscience seared with a hot iron" they are incapable of repenting? Is it because they are beyond hope - like evil angels?


Angels knew God so well that no further revelation of His love would serve to save them once they chose to rebel. No provision existed to redeem angels. Similarly, people "who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" - when such people choose to rebel they are beyond hope. There is nothing more God can do to woo and win them. They are dead to the love of God.

Your view that there isn't a sanctuary in heaven does not have biblical support, no matter how you slice it.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Christ entered once for all into the holy places (v. 12), which are not holy places made with hands (copies of the true ones), but into heaven itself (v. 24). The contrast in v. 24 is clear: Christ did not enter into the holy places made with hands, but into the ones not made with hands, into heaven itself. The obvious contrast is between the earthly holy places and the heavenly holy places.

Why was the death penalty instituted?

“Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my Sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers’ idols, wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live” (Ez 20:24, 25).

By transgressing the law which God had given in such majesty, and amid glory which was unapproachable, the people showed open contempt of the great Lawgiver, and death was the penalty.

What God said about presumptous, deliberate, willful sin (several translations):

Num 15:30 But the person who does wrong in the pride of his heart, if he is one of you or of another nation by birth, is acting without respect for the Lord, and will be cut off from his people (BBE).

Num 15:30 "If someone sins and knows they are doing wrong, they are rebelling against the LORD. They must be separated from their people (ERV).

Num 15:30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people (ESV).

Num 15:30 But any who sin deliberately, whether they are natives or foreigners, are guilty of treating the LORD with contempt, and they shall be put to death (GNB).

Num 15:30 "But any native-born Israelite or foreigner who deliberately does something wrong insults the LORD and must be excluded from the people (GW).

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people (KJV).

I think the lesson is that there is great peril in this kind of sin. If the person sincerely repents, there is forgiveness for him/her. The peril is that the person may not repent because he/she is resisting the Holy Spirit.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

MIke, thank you for the good contributions.

Heb. 8:1-2 says, by way of summary, "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

My question to you is this: where did the Lord pitch HIS sanctuary and true tabernacle, a building which no man built? Remember that the quote above (Heb. 8:1-2) is the essence of everything being said before and after it, so be careful.

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It is really not wise to quote the book of Revelation literally. Only the naive and unlearned do that.

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The very thing I asked of "dedication" in post #164029, just two above, I ask of you.

Heb. 8:1-2 says, by way of summary, "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

My question to you is this: where did the Lord pitch HIS sanctuary and true tabernacle, a building which no man built? Remember that the quote above (Heb. 8:1-2) is the essence of everything being said before and after it, so be careful.

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The context is the book of Hebrews, which tells us where the holy places are into which Christ entered:

Heb 8:1,2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

James, I do not consider myself "naive and unlearned" for believing the Revelation describes a literal temple in Heaven. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." {GC 598.3}

I'm sure you believe the Revelation describes things we can take as literal. Perhaps the New Earth? Possibly the "temple" (Rev 7:15) there?

Well I can tell you that the "temple in heaven" spoken of in the Revelation, is not literal. Look at these two "contradictory" verses:

"And I saw no temple therein (the city, the New Jerusalem): for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." (Rev. 21:22), AND

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God." (Rev. 3:12)

The New Jerusalem never had, does not have, nor will ever have a temple. How then does he make you a pillar in a non-existent temple?

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Hebrews 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,

9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself,

The author of Hebrews is clearly contrasting the earthly sanctuary of the Old Covenant (the building) with the heavenly sanctuary.

It's clear enough that Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary -- a sanctuary that God "pitched" not man.

Heb. 3:3-6 says ...

"For this man (Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.."

Maybe you'll like to read Is. 66:1-2 ...

"Thus saith the Lord,
The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
where is the house that ye build unto me?
and where is the place of my rest?
For all those things hath mine hand made,
and all those things have been, saith the Lord:
but to this man will I look,
even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit,
and trembleth at my word."

Or John 14:22-23 ...

"Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

And so forth ...

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See the post just above.

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No - there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem when it comes down from heaven. WHY? Because sin has been dealt with, there is no more need for it.


Why would God tell John there is no temple there, when in so many previous verses John saw all kinds of activity taking place in the temple in heaven?

The obvious answer is -- there is now a change, since there is no more sin problem that has separated mankind from God, a temple in which the work of reconciliation was carried out, is no longer needed.






This obviously uses metaphors. People aren't turned into pillars in a building.
Here a "pillar" means people established in the truth, someone supporting truth. A person is not stationary column in a literal building, but rather a person who is supporting the truth of Christ, and will not be moved by arguments or coercion from these truths.


This text is very different from the texts depicting angels coming out of the temple. In those verses the word "temple" is used as a "place" situated in heaven, that contains furniture, and from which beings can go in and out.

This is mixing things that are different.



"house" isn't even using the same word as "sanctuary" or even "temple".
"oikos" is a residence -- as in "a house".


In Hebrews we see "oikos" used as in -- house of Israel (Hebrews 8:8 and 8:10)

Or Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

Noah saved his "house" in the ark, in Hebrews 11:21

Moses was faithful in the position that he was given over the house of Israel.
Christ is far greater than Moses, and He is faithful over the house of spiritual Israel.





That is simply saying God is not confined to the little temple that was built on earth.
God is not confined to any building, He is ruler of the entire universe!

That does not do away with the fact there is a sanctuary in heaven in which the sin problem is systematically dealt with.







God is with us!
Omnipresence is one of God's attributes.
A most precious reality.
But that does not negate the fact that God and Christ are in heaven, and Christ is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

Most of you here have the possibility of studying carefully to know the answers and the reasons for the seeming discrepancy about the temple. I'm disappointed with the lack of scholarship on the matter.

Mrs. White gives us many details that help to clarify this, but the Bible alone should be sufficient. Let's look at the facts, and hopefully this will settle this question.

First, there is a temple in heaven.



Secondly, that temple is NOT in the city of Zion, the New Jerusalem.



Third, there will be a temple in the New Earth.





As further indication that there will most certainly be a temple in the New Earth, look at the following statements.

First, the following shows the distinction between the temple and the city, and that they are located separately, the temple outside of the city.


Now, notice that same description given in Early Writings as well. This time, I'll quote the preceding paragraphs for some important additional context which demonstrates clearly that she is speaking of both the New Jerusalem and the Temple as being in the New Earth, just as we would expect to be the case from the Bible's description.



So, after the city descends, the temple and the city are both in sight of each other, the former up on a mountain outside of the city. This is in the New Earth. Yes, there will be no more sin. But the temple will endure for eternity.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The book of Hebrews uses the technical expression ta hagia, "holy places," found nowhere else in the NT. In the LXX it is used for the earthly sanctuary. And the book of Hebrews says specifically that the holy places not made with hands, where Christ entered, are in heaven.

The Bible plainly says there is no temple in the New Jerusalem, that is what I was addressing.
God however IS in the New Jerusalem, so the texts of worshipping God in the "temple" on the New Earth, would now contradict according to your "scholarship."

Of course James will rejoice to see this discrepancy amongst those who know there is a temple in heaven where Christ is officiating as priest.

But let's look at this more fully, for indeed there is a change on the New Earth.
According to EGW, the temple, after the sin problem is forever ended, is like a museum outside the city and only the 144,000 can enter it. So how can the "great multitude" be serving God in the temple?
And we know God and the Lamb and His throne are in the city, where there is no temple. And God's redeemed will also be in the city, not outside the city.

A careful comparison of Revelation 21-22 with Ezekiel's temple in the last chapters of his book, give credence that the New Jerusalem itself will take the place of the "temple" in which people will come to worship and serve God upon His throne in the New Jerusalem.

I don't have time right now to do all the comparisons as I have to go to work.

The arguments being addressed here on this thread aren't about Christ serving as High Priest after sin is fully dealt with, hopefully we are all in agreement that the High Priestly work will be fully completed when Christ leaves the sanctuary at the close of probation. Of course there will be the investigation of the plan of salvation during the Millennium, but once the New Jerusalem comes to earth after the millennium, and the earth is made new, the priestly work in the temple will no longer continue for reconciliation of all things will be completed --
It will still be outside the city as a reminder for our understanding of salvation, but no longer in operation.

We will be face to face with our God, walking and talking personally with Jesus. It will no longer be necessary to go through the temple, through a mediator, which is now our Savior Jesus Christ officiating in the heavenly sanctuary. But because of what Christ is doing NOW, we will literally be in God's presence.


The important thing is that Christ is NOW in the heavenly sanctuary dealing with the sin problem.

James is saying there is no temple in heaven at all.

Yes, the Bible is plain on that point!

It's interesting that many Christians have little idea of what Jesus is doing in heaven, aside from waiting. His prolonged absence is a mystery to them.

For example, Philip Yancy writes:
"I have concluded in fact, that the Ascension represents my greatest struggle of faith--not whether it happened, but why, It challenges me more than the problem of pain, more than the difficulty of harmonizing science and the Bible, more than belief in the resurrection and other miracles (The Jesus I Never Knew, 229)

The revealed truth that Jesus is working as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary is the answer to those questionings.

I see. It had appeared to me that you were describing a temple-less New Earth, on account of your interpretation that the temple is only necessary for dealing with the sin problem. To quote the part of your post that seemed to say this....



If we can agree that there will be a temple in the New Earth, just as there has been in Heaven, then we are making progress.

I think that a study of the last ten chapters or so of Ezekiel would be quite relevant to this temple question. It seems the temple described in great detail there was not constructed on earth. Therefore, it appears it can only be a description of the heavenly temple.

The work of atonement that is going on now will be opened to the review of all the saints during the millennium in heaven. After final sentences and judgments are rendered and sin is destroyed forever, there would be no reason for things to continue throughout eternity in the temple such as are needful presently, i.e. the work of atonement for sins. Yet we will still worship in the heavenly sanctuary every Sabbath throughout eternity.



That sounds like more than a "museum" to me. And, it's another temple besides the one which only the 144,000 will be privileged to enter. This means there are at least two temples in the New Earth. How do we know? Back to the Bible...



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

James, am I wrong in believing you think the Revelation describes things that are literally true?

I'm sure you don't believe the Revelation contradicts itself. Neither do I. Obviously, the "temple" in the New Earth is located outside the city limits of New Jerusalem. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." Rev 7:15. The 144,000 will be privileged to worship there. Listen:


PS - I just read the rest of this thread and saw where GC and Dedication already posted the quotes regarding the temple and the 144,000. Sorry for the duplication.

If there is no temple in Heaven, does it mean Jesus has not been performing the investigative judgment since 1844?

The temple of God was, is and will ALWAYS be His people.

Under the old covenant, the priests had the privilege of walking in the space God had set up around himself as His own. The priests were representative of the congregation. Together they were the living breathing temple of God. All the sprinkling of blood in the sanctuary was the symbolic act of the cleansing of the conscience of the people.

Sprinkling blood on a vessel does NOT cleanse that vessel, but the gift of the Holy Spirit to the repentant sinner is more than sufficient to make him righteous before his Redeemmer. This fulfillment was realized on Calavry.

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James, clearly you believe the temple of God in heaven symbolizes His people. What about the SDA belief regarding 1844 and the investigative judgment - do you not believe it?

James does not hide the fact that he is not a Seventh-day Adventist, and does not believe in the sanctuary doctrine, nor does he consider EGW an authority on doctrine.

In a way it is good for us to show our beliefs strictly from the Bible. Even if we don't convince him, it is a good exercise for each of us to establish ourselves firmly on scripture.

James.
The Holy Spirit descended several weeks after the crucifixion -- after Christ ascended to heaven.

Your belief seems to lead to an "everyone is saved" idea. Since if the cleansing happened at Calvary it would have been applied to the world in a single sweep and all would be saved since Jesus took everyone's sin upon Himself and died the sinners death.

And so yes, Christ did provide for the cleansing of all people at Calvary, but He is now our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary applying that cleansing to those who respond to His Holy Spirits leading.

Though salvation is available for all, all will not be saved.

Why did Christ ASCEND into heaven at His resurrection?
If His "temple" and "the Lord is in His Holy Temple" means He is in people, won't He have simply stayed on earth?
Yet, He ascended to heaven and a second coming is predicted when He will return.

It is the Holy Spirit Who abides with us, and brings the presence of God and Jesus to us.
While God's presence, through His Holy Spirit, in our lives is very real, yet God does not literally dwell in us.
Those who get too literal on the "God in Us" theology are moving into Panentheism.

Panentheism is becoming more and more popular in the new religious movements coming into the Christian churches.
But it is not Biblical Christianity.

The doctrine came out of an erroneous interpretation of Dan. 8:14. But the High Priest only sprinkled the blood for the "cleansing of the sanctuary". If you find otherwise, then show where he investigated the historical records of the dead.

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Jesus said, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:17) Jesus died for EVERY SINGLE human being, the just for the unjust. Paul said, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22) First, Christ himself, then the righteous in Him, and finally the unjust.

Everyone, upon resurrection must appear before God that he may receive his just reward. But of Christ, it is written that He sat on the right hand of God, "being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." (Heb. 1:4)

Christ is leading the Church and is intimately involved in the affairs of earth. God Himself said, "Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" The rise and fall of nations that you see around you, even the social interactions and whatever else they may be is managed by Christ towards an end: the wonderful reward and understanding of those who will inherit the earth.

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So basically, James, you believe everyone will be saved in the end?
The world and especially the "church" (which is all Christians and believers in a supreme being) is now organizing for that glorious "leap" into a new age?
"
"christ" who according to you is already here, will soon manifest himself more visual and rule here on earth?

Rather than argue over what I didn't say, I'd prefer you answer my post to MM.

"The doctrine (of an investigative judgement) came out of an erroneous interpretation of Dan. 8:14. But the High Priest only sprinkled the blood for the "cleansing of the sanctuary". If you find otherwise, then show where he investigated the historical records of the dead."

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James, thank you for the study. I enjoy learning what other people believe.

You're welcome

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This is not the only interpretation and will never be.

Then, would you like to answer this what I posed to MM?

"The doctrine (of an investigative judgement) came out of an erroneous interpretation of Dan. 8:14. But the High Priest only sprinkled the blood for the "cleansing of the sanctuary". If you find otherwise, then show where he investigated the historical records of the dead."

///

Yet a conversation is not really a conversation when one person won't reveal what they believe on the point that is the very bases that under-rides the discussion.

If you believe all will be saved in the end, of course any "investigative judgement" makes no sense to you at all.




As to your question -- the significance of the priest "sprinkling the blood" is far more than the limits you have placed on that symbolic action.

Christians commonly believe that Christ's death on the cross constituted the sum total of "atonement", but as already stated, Leviticus repeatedly says after a sacrifice the priest makes an atonement for him (Lev. 5:6,10,16 and more).
It is true that the cross is the one and only all sufficient sacrifice without which there would be no atonement.

Yet the Levitical sanctuary shows the priestly mediation which prefigured Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary after his Ascension. The death made provision for atonement to be carried out, but without mediation there would be no atonement.

"If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins" 1 Cor. 15:17
But Christ has been raised and is in heaven as our mediator and High Priest.

Romans 5.9-10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Heb. 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

THE DAY OF ATONEMENT

In Israel, following a full year of the daily ministry of the priest, came the day of Atonement.
While the ceremonial ritual repeated each year, Christ's work does not repeat in like manner, but a one year represents the entire work of Christ in reconciling people to God.

The relationship between the stages of Christ's ministry are:
1. Christ's death sufficient to cover all sin
2. Christ offers His gift of salvation to all who will come, and mediates in their behalf.
3. The question as to why some are saved and some are lost must be answered to restore perfect trust and harmony in the whole universe. After all none of us deserve to enter into a perfectly holy kingdom.

Oh, but you asked, where is there an investigation in the Mosaic Day of Atonement?

In the typical "Day of Atonement" when the sanctuary was cleansed, those who were not true followers of God were "cut off".
Lev. 23.29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

In other words, there was an investigation -- those who had not with contrite hearts sent their sins into the sanctuary to be covered by the sacrificial blood WERE CUT OFF.


In ancient Israel the Day of Atonement represented the conclusion of the judgment that began ten days earlier on the first day of the seventh month, with a massive blowing of trumpets (Feast of Trumpets).
The "Ten Days of Repentance," or the "Days of Awe." These are the ten days of introspection and preparation for the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), which falls on the tenth day of the seventh month.

The shofar beckoned the people with a solemn message of warning to repent for the time of judgment had come. It called upon the people to examine their lives, mend their ways, and experience divine cleansing.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation sounded in the 1840's as the first angel's message was announced to the world.
Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Luke 18:10-14 says ....

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house JUSTIFIED rather than the other."

Do you know what JUSTIFIED means?

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Justification.

Here is a story of man justified (his debt of sin removed), but then a review was made that he despised his justification and his debt (of sin) was placed back upon him. (See Matt. 18:23-34)

1. Well said. Even Jesus agreed, "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Justification is forgiveness from the heart, the Divine example which we ought to follow with each other.

2. He was simply like one of the "foolish virgins": a member of the party but going forth without the oil. Time (and not review) reveals who is of God and who is not.

The sprinkling of the "blood of Christ", the gift of the Holy Spirit, is the evidence of justification (i.e. atonement); but it bears fruit only within those in whom it takes root. And time will tell.

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No, it's not just a question of time. His debt had been forgiven (Mt 18:27), but, after the discovery of new facts (v. 31), it's reinstated (v. 34).

James, I should explain why I bowed out of this study. I am not evading answering your question. My goal for being on this thread was to learn what you believe. Now that I know you believe the "the temple which is in heaven" symbolizes church members I now know what you believe.

A human high priest couldn't read the thoughts or the life of others. A symbolical service couldn't portray this kind of detail. But, as Dedication said, on the Day of Atonement those who did not sincerely repent from their sins were cut off from the people. This implies a separation, or judgment, in heaven.

In fact, the Jews have traditionally considered the Day of Atonement as the Day of Judgment. "Even the angels, we are told in the Ritual, are seized with fear and trembling; they hurry to and fro and say: ‘Behold the Day of Judgment has come.’ The Day of Atonement is the Day of Judgment" (Paul Isaac Hershon, Treasures of the Talmud [1882], p. 97).

That's not what the parable was about. Jesus was illustrating how God's forgiveness should lead to regeneration; and if it does not, then you will die. His conclusion was, "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses" OR, in other words, "if you do not repent and reflect my character, you have no part in me; and in the end, you will surely perish."

It's interesting that it was PETER who was asking, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" He became the one who needed the most forgiveness after he denied Jesus three times. "So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these? ... Feed My lambs.'" (John 21:15)

As it is written, "If anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW creation." And if he has the Holy Spirit, then he is sealed for salvation; and if not, he will certainly perish. There is NO INVESTIGATION. The question at the end is this: do you have the Holy Spirit, yes or no? Have you not read where it is written, "the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: 'The Lord knows those who are His,' and, 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity'"? (2 Tim. 2:19)

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ok

For the record: "For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house -- as a servant -- (for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward), but Christ -- as a Son -- over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.." (Heb. 3:4-6)

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1. Are you imagining things now? If God gave the symbol of sprinkling of blood for cleansing (AND THAT ALONE), who are you to add other imaginary procedures and meanings of those imaginary procedures to the ceremony? The High Priest NEVER investigated anything because God NEVER provided anything for investigation. The High Priest was to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice and it was sufficient to "cleanse the sanctuary". Period. It was left up to each individual to believe, to repent and to vow a new beginning; which demonstrates rather markedly that the sanctuary was ALWAYS the congregation and not the building.

2. Of course the Day of Atonement was the day of judgement. Jesus himself said, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." (John 12:31) He is the one through whom and by whose death, an otherwise sinful world in complete rebellion was made at one with God. Paul Hershon doesn't know what he talking about.

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But it is what the parable is about --
For
yes, justification (having your sins forgiven) should lead to regeneration, if it doesn't a person has turned away from the divine connection and will die. (no longer justified).

In the parable Matt. 18:27,34,35 –”The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go free. Later, because the servants justification did not lead to regeneration the master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay back all he owed. Why did this man lose his justification? The reason was not based on his belief in the king, or the forgiveness he sought and received, it was based on his later actions!


As long as a person remains in connection with Christ, and by the Holy Spirit is putting to death the deeds of the flesh, (Romans 8:13) yes He is in a saving relationship.
But the person's choice is never removed.

Paul himself who praises God for his salvation says in:
1 Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


1 Tim. 1:19 –”Holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.”
One can’t shipwreck a ship that never was, nor can they hold on to something they never had in the first place.


True -- the Lord knows who are His.
But what about everyone else?





Daniel 7:9
As I looked,
thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10
A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened..
13 “In my vision at night I looked,
and there before me was one like a son of man,
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power;


[the Son of Man (Jesus) speaking]
Rev. 3:4 There are names...
which have not defiled their garments;
and they shall walk with me in white:
for they are worthy.
3:5 He that overcomes,
the same shall be clothed in white raiment;
and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father,
and before his angels.

Dan. 26 “For the court will sit,

And for the record:
"house" is not the same word as "sanctuary" or even "temple".
"oikos" is a residence -- as in "a house".

In the book of Hebrews we see "oikos" used as in -- the house of Israel (Hebrews 8:8 and 8:10)
Or Hebrews 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Noah saved his "house" in the ark, in Hebrews 11:21

Moses was faithful in the position that he was given over the house of Israel.
Christ is far greater than Moses, and He is faithful over the house of spiritual Israel.

But that word is not the same as "hagios" or TA HAGIA which the author of Hebrews uses ten times when speaking of the heavenly sanctuary where Christ is ministering as our High Priest.

As I said, Jesus' own "conclusion was: 'So My heavenly Father also will do to you (cast you into hell) if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses' OR, in other words, 'if you do not repent and reflect my character, you have no part in me; and in the end, you will surely perish.'" From the very beginning, the forgived in the parable was not really cleansed. As it is written:

"For on that day the (High Priest) shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord," YET ... "for any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people," AS IN ... "'Why have we fasted,' they say, 'and You have not seen? Why have we afflicted our souls, and You take no notice?' In fact, in the day of your fast you find pleasure and exploit all your laborers." (Lev. 16:30, Lev. 23:29, Is. 58:3)

The meaning of the parable was given by Jesus himself. There is no need to add to it. He was merely saying that forgiveness by God should result in a change of character towards the Divine similitude; but if not, there's a price to pay. On the other hand, what you are trying to do is add unnecessary significance to each and every detail without consulting the reason for the parable or the conclusion at which Jesus himself arrived. Consider what Peter was asking and, if you can, the answer for which he might have been hoping. Then read the parable from that perspective; and refrain from imposing "the doctrine" on it.

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Putting texts together is good, but you must be careful of what you are juxtaposing. May I remind you of what Jesus says happens in heaven when any person repents unto salvation (i.e. is truly baptized of water and the Spirit -- John 3:5), "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance" (Luke 15:7), and "there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents" (v.10).

Having said that, the passages you quoted from Daniel do NOT speak of an investigative judgement starting in 1844. Rather, it was fulfilled when Jesus ascended into heaven as described in Rev. 5. The beast spoken of in Dan. 7:11 was Rome, and it's judgement was it's fall and the beginning of the rise of Christianity.

Thirdly, do you know what "and the books were opened ..." means?

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Tell me, what word is translated "HOUSE" below in Is. 66:1-4 and does the original word denote a family or a building?



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I agree -- "He was merely saying that [u]forgiveness by God should result in a change of character towards the Divine similitude; but if not, there's a price to pay".

Justification (forgiven of all sin) releases us from the guilt and depressing weight of sin. Now we are to be dead to sin and alive in Christ. Growing in His grace to reflect His character more and more.

But how is it determined what "price" will be executed -- life or death? Who is to say how far the Holy Spirit has led a person?
And how is it determined whose character is genuinely being changed towards the Divine similitude by the Holy Spirit and not a "dead works" program?

There are people who appear very pious and good and even loving and kind, whose characters have not been changed into a divine similitude. And there are people, who are covered by God's grace, but who others would probably condemn, yet whose characters are being refined into the Divine similitude.


God allowing sin to go on for thousands of years is for a purpose -- to show all intelligent created beings that God's law and His dealings with individuals is holy, just and good, and His ways are true, holy, and righteous.
God isn't going to simply assign salvation to those He alone knows are His, while leaving the rest to eternal destruction. The court is seated, the books are opened and Christ is presenting the names of those who have on his robe of righteousness before the Father and the angels. There is a record, their is a court. (Daniel 7:10, Rev. 3:5)
Why are there books,
why present names before God and the angels,
why have a court, since God already knows everything?

It so there will be NO SECRET as to why an individual is saved or lost. No lingering doubts in any mind as to the justice of God for not bringing a certain loved one into paradise.

Isaiah is simply telling us that God is far greater than any building that man built.

However the author of Hebrews makes a clear distinction in his choice of words.

When he is referring to the temple or sanctuary he uses the word "ta hagia" or it's variations.

when he is referring to a group of people like "the house of Israel" he uses a completely different word. "iokos"

And he says the "ts hagia" is in heaven. (9:24)

1. Either you are sealed with the Holy Spirit or you're not.

2. The angels of God trust His judgement. Only SDA teach distrust in heaven.

3. See 1 and 2

4. SDA grossly misconstrue Dan. 7:9-14 to mean "investigation of saints"; but the angel of God said it was for "judgement against the beast" as with Nebuchadnezzar in Dan. 4:17, "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

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So why can't you say what word is translated "HOUSE" in Is. 66:1-4 and whether the original word denotes either a family or a building?

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???
I'm not getting your point.
The word is bayith, and it can denote either a family (Numbers 12:7, Joshua 24:15, 1 Sam. 20:15, 1 Chron. 17:14, etc.) or a building (Lev. 14:35, Judges 11:31, 19:23, 2 Sam. 11:11, 1 Kings 21:2, 1 Chron. 28:6, Isa. 56:7, Eze. 44:7).
In Isa. 66:1 it refers to a building, in the same sense that Solomon says: "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this house which I have built?" (1 Kings 8:27).

However, the term ta hagia is exclusively applied to the physical building of the sanctuary. And it's specifically said to be in heaven and to be the place where Jesus entered.

Only dictators think that their subjects don't deserve to know the reasons for the decisions they make.

That is true. In other words, the building is symbolic of the people, as "HOUSE" is "either a family or a building". This is what God meant when He said, "where is the place of My rest ... BUT on this one will I look ..." The message to the Laodiceans echoes the same sentiment, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

Here is how Hebrews concludes the idea, "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the HOUSE of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." (Heb. 10:19-22)

It is evident that the Church is the heavenly sanctuary that was cleansed by the sprinkling of the "blood of Christ". Paul expresses it rather well in his letter to the Ephesians: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish." (Eph. 5:25-27)



See comment above.

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1 Pet. 1:10-12, "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully ... To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things which angels desire to look into."

In much the same way that the prophets waited, so the angels of God bid their time until God revealed the things He spoke of long ago. And His angels trusted Him, and waited too.

Do you do a personal and private investigation of all new members in your congregation because you cannot just accept what the Pastor says about a newly baptized member, someone you don't know and with whom you must interact?

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"Either...or" doesn't mean "both things at the same time." The following passages refer to the people: Heb. 3:2; 3:5; 10:21; 1 Peter 4:17. The following passages refer to the building: Luke 6:4; 11:51.
Saying that the sanctuary is symbolic of the people doesn't work. At the Day of Atonement, atonement was made not just for the people, but also for the sanctuary - the building:

Lev 16:32 And the priest, who shall be anointed and who shall be consecrated to be priest in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen garments, even the holy garments:
Lev 16:33 and he shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary [the most holy place]; and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting [the holy place] and for the altar; and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.


No, this is not evident. We have quoted Heb. 9:24 several times, but not once have you given a satisfactory explanation for it. Christ entered into the holy places not made with hands, into heaven itself.

Of course the angels trust God, but God, because He is an honest and just ruler, decided to give a public explanation for His decisions - that's why He makes a public judgment.


Suppose you arrive at church to attend a baptismal service, and when the curtain of the baptismal tank is drawn aside, you see there in the tank someone you knew in the past as a child molester. No explanation is given. Would you have some questions to make about him to the pastor or to the elders after the service or not?

Where did He ever give a "public explanation for His decisions"?


Do you do it?

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Yes there is to be a process --

And God is not a dictator -- His kingdom is based on love where everyone lives according to God's ways BECAUSE THEY LOVE TO live that way, and they love Him.

If God demands blind trust, why didn't He simply squelch sin when it first manifested itself?
Why not get rid of the evil spirits (fallen angels) right away thus stopping all the pain, suffering, war, misery and everything else sin has brought, rather than letting it drag on for thousands of years.

Sin started in heaven. Doubts were placed in the minds of the angelic hosts by a high ranking angel name Lucifer.
He was "covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." {Ez.28:16) "the anointed cherub that covers;" he was "upon the holy mountain of God; and walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
He was perfect in all his ways from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. (Ez. 28:14)
He had great influence in a realm where to that point sin was totally unknown.

Yes he planted a lot of doubts in the minds of many of the angels. Quite a few "left their first estate" (Jude 1:6)and joined him in his growing darkness.

This whole sinful world is an exhibition of Lucifer/satan's supposedly "better plan" in opposition to God's just and holy rule. This exhibition should remove all doubts of anything "better" in what satan offers.

While we do need to learn to fully trust God even when we don't see the end from the beginning. God will still reveal to all, to the angels, as well as humans, His ways, so as to remove any and all doubts forever. When the sin demonstration of satan's ways is forever ended, sin will never again manifest itself, because God allowed this fallen angel to demonstrate the nature of his claims, but He also thoroughly revealed His own just, loving, fair and holy way, and everyone is 100% certain that He is the God they want to PRAISE AND WORSHIP and obey for eternity.

He will do it - in the judgment.

Eccle 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good, or whether evil.

2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to that which he has done, whether good or bad.


Yes, of course I would do it in case this happened.

Perhaps you have missed my post #164201.

It's an SDA tradition for all its members to thoroughly investigate the newly baptized.

But of the Kingdom of God, it is written, "And with many other words [Peter] testified and exhorted [the multitude], saying, 'Be saved from this perverse generation.' Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them." (Acts 2:40-41)

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Do not add to the Word of God. Jesus himself told the paralytic and the multitude, "'But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins' — then He said to the paralytic, 'Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.'" (Mat. 9:6) The one whose sins have been forgiven, is made whole by God. He is also cleansed and lives. Jesus said so; and Paul too, "let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful." (Heb. 10:22-23)

Again ... the cleansing of the sanctuary by the sprinkling of the "blood of Christ" alone, is the gift of the Holy Spirit and is sufficient as the guarantee of salvation. At the end, there is only one question: do you have the Holy Spirit or not? God knows who are His; and His angels are fully aware of who the people of God are.

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Those don't say anything about a "public explanation for His decisions". They speak about a revelation of His will. We appear before Christ to receive either salvation or damnation based on our conscience. You either love God sincerely or you don't. (John 21:15-19)


Do you do it? That was the question, not whether you would do it in a particular case. But DO YOU DO it?

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James, you are comparing apples and oranges. Hebrews 9:13, 14 doesn't refer at all to the sprinkling of blood on the sanctuary for its cleansing; it refers to the sprinkling of blood, and of water with ashes, upon defiled people in order to make them clean.

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.

The reference is to Exo. 29:21; Lev. 14:7; Numbers 8:7, 19:18, 19; Eze. 36:25; etc.

As far as I know, the judgment will be a public event.

Scripture also says do not take away anything from scripture.


Yes, it is only through Christ that we have forgiveness of sin! His death upon the cross is the cleansing blood that takes away our sin.
What you (James) quote about Christ's power to forgive and cleanse His people is correct.

I John 1:7 For the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

It is with grateful hearts that we recognize his cleansing power in our lives, and with praise we rejoice in that forgiveness made possible by His unspeakable loving gift of salvation.

But you are focusing on this to the exclusion of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. You are "taking away" from scripture.

Now Christ Jesus is our High Priest! Our mediator! We need no other in our approach to God. Hebrews stresses the fact that our great High Priest is at the very right hand of God (chap. 1:3), in "heaven itself ... in the presence of God" (chap. 9:24).



There is much more to Christ's work of reconciling ALL THINGS.



While the sanctuary theme runs throughout Scripture, it is seen most clearly in Leviticus, Daniel, Hebrews, and Revelation.

Leviticus and Hebrews are concerned primarily with the priestly functions associated with the sanctuary, while Daniel and Revelation has the theme of judgment running throughout and taking us to the final restoration of all things.


The teaching of "judgment to come" has a firm base in Scripture. (Eccl. 12:14; Acts 24:25; Heb. 9:27; etc.). Those who look to Christ as their Savior and Lord, and follow His leading need not fear the judgment. The judgment is good news for Jesus promised:



Don't you want Christ to present your name before the Father and the holy angels and have your name forever in the book of life?

It says plainly in Dan. 8:14 , "Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

1. How is the sanctuary cleansed by the High Priest? By him "sprinkling the blood of sacrifice" or by him investigating sins written down in books? See Lev. 16.

2. Does "shall be cleansed" mean begin to be cleansed, or be cleansed as in "It is finished"? See John 12:31-32.

3. Jesus is our High Priest before God in heaven much like you have a member of parliament who has the ears of the Prime Minister in the capital city. See Heb. 10:19-31

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1. It says plainly in Dan. 8:14 , "Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The word in Daniel 8:14 is
(#6663) “ntsadaq” from "tsadaq" which has a forensic meaning of “justify, vindicate, clear, made righteousness, cleanse" .
Forensic means it is connected with or used in courts of law.

The atonement has to do with the Law, as well as the Gospel. The atonement which the priest made for the people in connection with their daily ministration was different from that made on the tenth day of the seventh month.

In making the former, they went no further than into the Holy Place of the Sanctuary; carrying the sins of the people into the sanctuary, but on the day of Atonement the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies, to place the blood upon the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant under which lay the ten commandments.

The former was made for individuals, removing the sin from them and placing them in the sanctuary, the latter was for the whole nation of Israel collectively, a final removal of all sin from the temple after the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat above the commandments. The former was made for the forgiveness of sins, the latter for blotting them out as the Priest placed them on the head of the azazel goat which was cast out into the wilderness. The former could be made at any time, the latter only on the tenth day of the seventh month near the end of the symbolic salvation "year".

The Jewish symbolic year began with spring festivals -- Passover (Christ is our Passover Lamb) Christ's death was once and for all not needing to be repeated. The Day of Atonement was at the end of the symbolic salvation "year". They are not the same event.

The sanctuary cleansed in the Leviticus account was the earthly sanctuary of the old covenant.
The Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2,300 day/years is the heavenly Sanctuary of the new covenant.

Heb. 9:22-23 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns (the earthly sanctuary) of things in the heavens (the heavenly sanctuary) should be purified with these; (animal blood) but the heavenly things (the heavenly sanctuary) themselves with better sacrifices (Christ's blood) than these.
Moses received the patterns of the Sanctuary, built at Sinai from the Lord Himself.


2. Does "shall be cleansed" mean begin to be cleansed, or be cleansed as in "It is finished"? See John 12:31-32

At the end of the 2300 day/years the heavenly work typified by the day of atonement began.

When Jesus declared "It is finished" He was speaking of His tremendous sacrifice -- taking our sins upon Himself and dying upon the cross. (Typified by the Passover) At that point satan's defeat was assured, the plan of salvation was ratified, however the work of atonement is still going on -- we are still in this sinful old world, the final restitution has not yet taken place.

3. Jesus is our High Priest before God in heaven much like you have a member of parliament who has the ears of the Prime Minister in the capital city. See Heb. 10:19-31

Our heavenly High Priest is far more than some "member of parliament".
In that heavenly court (see Daniel 7:9-10) He is given the kingdom of this world (see Daniel 7:14)
Because of his death for our redemption He has the right to present the names of all Who have accepted His gift of salvation before the Father and the holy angels, as citizens of his kingdom who now will not need to die eternally but who will enjoy life everlasting with Him in His kingdom.

Does sprinkling the blood of sacrifice on the veil, altars, vessels and floor of the sanctuary cleanse those articles and the building itself? NO; rather, the opposite. Therefore the act was symbolic of the day of forgiveness of the sin of the congregation, i.e. of the world, through sacrifice (a sacrifice that was even unto death).

Jesus Christ said, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him (i.e. afflict their soul in repentance at the foot of the cross) should not perish (i.e. not be cut off from the congregation of the saved) but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

John 3:16 tells of the fulfillment of Dan. 8:14 ("Unto 2,300 'days', then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." See Lev. 16) The gift of the Holy Spirit is tangible evidence of our sure salvation if we hold fast unto the end. See Heb. 3:4-6

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???
Yes, it symbolically cleansed the building and its articles (Lev. 16:19). And please notice that the cleansing took place after the sacrifice had been offered.
But, since the service was symbolical, of course it pointed forward to a future sacrifice and a future cleansing.

It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Rom 8:34.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb 7:25.

1. Indeed, SYMBOLICALLY, because it is impossible to cleanse anything with the blood of animals. Nevetheless, "the blood of Christ" (i.e. His Holy Spirit) cleanses us of all unrighteousness. This was accomplished through His sacrifice.

2. See #1; and it was fulfilled on Calvary. Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:31-32) OR don't you believe Jesus anymore?

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Even while Jesus was on earth, he was making intercession for the saints. Have you not read about Peter, before he promised to die with Christ, Jesus told him, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers"?

This VERY work of intercession was always what Jesus was doing, except that after the resurrection, he was doing it as THE Messiah, the man appointed by God to represent the earth before Him.

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Indeed, there is a lot of symbolism in the sanctuary service. That's what I've been trying to tell you. Yet on one hand you wish to make the symbols extremely literal (to render them impossible to represent Christ's work) and on the other hand you wish to make it all symbolic of one event.

Indeed, without the shed blood of Christ on Calvary, there would be no cleansing from sin. It is ONLY thanks to Christ's death upon the cross that cleansing from sin has been made possible.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Christ died IN ORDER that He could deliver us from sin.
His death and resurrection enabled Him to deliver us from sin.
It enabled Him to enter the heavenly sanctuary as the officiating High Priest in the work of administrating salvation.

Also there is "mediation" as in people praying for each other, petitioning God's blessings upon others. Jesus did this for Peter and others before His death. We are to do this today.

But that is not the same as Christ's mediatorial work in the courts of heaven, where with His own blood He applies pardon to the sins of His people who come to Him confessing those sins (1John 1:9) and presents their names before the Father and the heavenly angels as citizens of His kingdom (Rev. 3:5,12) -- to inhabit the New Jerusalem on a newly recreated earth of the future. (Rev. 21:27)

The Bible plainly tells us that Christ entered into heavenly sanctuary there to appear before the Father for us. (Heb. 9:11,24) He will present the names of the overcomers before the Father and His angels and these names will remain in the book of Life. (Rev. 3:5)
Those whose names are in the Book of Life will inherit the New Earth kingdom (Rev. 21:27)

Daniel 7 gives us a picture of the scene of this last day work of Christ. There the court is seated and the books are opened. (Dan. 7:9-10) The Son of Man (Jesus our High Priest) is brought before the court (Dan. 7:14) To Him, as the representative of the human race, is given the kingdom and dominion of earth.
This scene take place AFTER western Rome divided into 10 horns, it takes place AFTER the little horn (papal Rome) does his 1260 years of persecuting God's people and changing God's law. (7:25)
The horn claims to be Christ's representative on earth! This is the judgment on the claims by humans who claim to Christ's followers.
Jesus presents the names of the OVERCOMERS before the Father and the angels (Rev. 3:5) and it matters not whether the earthly ecclesiastical powers condemn, if our names are permanently in the Book of Life, we will share in the inheritance of the New Earth!

Two outcomes of the judgment:
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his (the horns) dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

I believe in Jesus not only as a sacrifice for my sins, but also as a High Priest to intercede for me before God when I sin.

Heb 5:1 For every high priest is taken from among the people and appointed to represent them before God, to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.

Heb 8:1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We have such a high priest, one who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
Heb 8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. So this one too had to have something to offer.

Heb 7:21 "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever'" ...
Heb 7:23 And the others who became priests were numerous, because death prevented them from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently since he lives forever.
Heb 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

The priest offered the sacrifice on the altar in the courtyard, then went inside the sanctuary, into the presence of God, to intercede for the sinner, in order that the latter might receive forgiveness. This is what Jesus is doing now - interceding for us, on the basis of His sacrifice, made once for all, in order that we may be forgiven for the sins we commit today.

Only because He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." He has been applying the benefits of His blood atonement from the day A&E sinned - four thousand years before the cross. Jesus is not bound by our time-space continuum. Therefore, whatever is, will be, or has been is eternal.

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Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
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THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. But SDA do not read the Bible. They just think they do when they read their own doctrinal books, and so they stumble and fall about in the dark. This is what Leviticus 4 says: ALL sin offerings were for UNINTENTIONAL sin.

1. for the anointed priest OR the whole congregation:

• blood sprinkled seven times before the sanctuary
• blood is put on horns of altar of incense INSIDE the sanctuary
• blood (the rest) is poured at the base of alter of burnt offering

2. for a ruler OR one of the common people:

• blood is put on horns of altar of burnt offering OUTSIDE the sanctuary
• blood (the rest) is poured at the base of alter of burnt offering

Who are you?

• the anointed priest?
• the whole body of the Church of Christ?
• a ruler?
• or one of the common people?

And based on your answer, where was the blood of your sacrifice taken: inside of, or kept outside, the sanctuary? READ YOUR BIBLE!!! READ IT FOR YOURSELF!!! FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!!!

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The blood of Christ is NOT the Holy Spirit.

Though the Holy Spirit brings home to the human mind the importance of cleansing.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. When we speak of "cleansing" we aren't talking about ordinary household cleaning of dirt and grim, but rather of cleaning away sin.
Cleansing with blood --
In our bodies the blood picks up toxins and transfers them to the organs like liver and kidneys that then remove them from us and cleanse us of toxins.

But James asks, "how can it be said that at a certain time the sanctuary shall be cleansed? Has not the blood of Christ continually been cleansing the living sanctuary, the church?"

That the living temple representing God's people must be cleansed of sin is very much a part of Christ's heavenly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

Yet we see from scripture that God has a sanctuary in the heavens, and that Christ is priest there. That is obvious to anyone who reads the Scriptures.

So instead of trying to "take away from scripture" we need to realize that the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary (a work which immediately precedes the coming of the Lord) coincides with, and is very intimately connected to the cleansing of the people of God on this earth, preparing them to meet their coming Savior when He comes to gather His redeemed to Himself.





Of course I believe Jesus. At Christ's death, Satan's claims to this world were removed, Satan could no say -- "these people are mine", Jesus could tell him -- "no I bought them back with my own blood.
When Jesus was lifted up on the cross every heart that yearned for something better felt a drawing power. Fallen humanity could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So yes, we need to exalt the sacrifice of Christ?

The sacrifice made Christ's Priestly work possible.


Yet that is not the end of the story. Just because satan received a judgment at the cross, disinheriting him from his usurped claims as master of this world. Does not in any way do away with the texts pointing us to a heavenly sanctuary, nor do it do away with judgments in the future the execution of these judgments resulting from the evidence of the investigation previous.

Are you saying Rosangela is wrong in saying Christ is interceding for us on the bases of His death and His blood for us?

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
7:26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
7:27 Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.



If I recall she shared a number of times that the priest EITHER took blood inside the sanctuary, or ate the flesh of the sacrifice (6:17) and thus also took the sins in that way.

Lev. 10:17-18 says, "Wherefore have ye (Aaron) not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord? Behold, the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place: ye should indeed have eaten it in the holy place, as I commanded."

What does that mean? Have you seen it anywhere else? Think carefully, please.

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I read my Bible, but apparently you don't read the discussion. This was my reply to Luis in the first page of this thread:

Which means that, for all sins, ultimately the priest took the blood inside the sanctuary.

Who told you so; or are you just reasoning that way?

Lev. 10:17-18 says, "Wherefore have ye (Aaron) not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord? Behold, the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place: ye should indeed have eaten it in the holy place, as I commanded."

Have you seen that anywhere in the New Testament? And again I ask, "Who are you?"

1. anointed priest,
2. the whole congregation,
3. a ruler, OR
4. a common member of the congregation?

And based on your answer, where was the blood of your sacrifice taken: inside of, or kept outside, the sanctuary? There is a reason why the blood for one was taken in; and the other was not. Look carefully at the categorization, and you will see why:

1. Sprinkled IN the sanctuary: anointed priest & whole congregation
2. Kept OUTSIDE the sanctuary: ruler & commoner

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I have some questions for you, too:
1) Have you noticed that after the victim of the sin-offering was slain, the priests were instructed to eat its meat in order to bear the iniquity of the sinner? What does that mean, in your opinion?

2) In which way do you think that the priest’s eating of the meat of the sacrifice could make atonement?


The symbolism was different; please notice that in one case the victim was the sin-bearer; in the other, the priest was the sin-bearer. Now I ask to you, Do you understand the symbolism? What does it mean?

John 6

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

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Aren't we mixing symbols once again?

The plan of salvation is broad and deep.
You (James) seem to focus on the redemption from the more narrow avenue of the person, rather than the whole Great Controversy theme.

What did Jesus mean in John 6? He most certainly didn't mean actually eating His flesh and blood, though the Catholic priesthood pretends to turn their wafers and wine into the actual presence of Christ trying to make it literal.

John began his gospel with the words "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God..." Christ is the Word -- His scriptures are also His Word. In prayerful study we are to "eat" the Word. The incarnation of Christ, His divinity, His life on earth, His sacrifice, His work of atonement, His life in heaven as our sympathizing High Priest and advocate, the gift of the Holy Spirit,-- all these living, vital themes of Christianity are revealed from Genesis to Revelation. These are to be the staples of our diet -- our food and drink.


But let's not confuse that with the priest being required to eat of the sacrificial animal in the Old System. The symbolism doesn't match -- for it was the PRIEST Who was to eat it and BEAR THE SIN of the people.
Lev. 10:17-18 (Moses said to Aaron) Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God has given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD? Behold, the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place: ye should indeed have eaten it in the holy place, as I commanded.

The priest eating the sacrifice shows that they (the priests) absorb the sacrifice. (In symbol prophesying that the sacrifice and the priest will be the same)
The fulfilment is the reality of the REAL HIGH PRIEST -- Jesus Christ, He is BOTH the sacrifice (the Lamb taking our sins and dying) AND the High Priest Who appears before the Father as a Lamb as it had been slain (Rev. 5:6) and Who presents His own blood before the ark in which reside the ten commandments.

Why do you invent your own interpretation of the law? The meaning of the priest eating of the sacrifice was given by Jesus. Isn't that enough? Anyway, again I ask, "Who are you?"

1. anointed priest,
2. the whole congregation,
3. a ruler, OR
4. a common member of the congregation?

And based on your answer, where was the blood of your sacrifice taken: inside of, or kept outside, the sanctuary? There is a reason why the blood for one was taken in; and the other was not. Look carefully at the categorization, and you will see why:

1. Sprinkled IN the sanctuary: anointed priest & whole congregation
2. Kept OUTSIDE the sanctuary: ruler & commoner

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Who am I?
I am a person for whom Christ died that I may have eternal life.

Christ bore my sins, and with His blood pardon is written over those confessed sins, and He presents my name before the Father and His angels.


And no -- your putting two texts together is not enough-- since it is not addressing the same issue.

You make a big deal over the fact it wasn't practical for the priest to sprinkle every sacrificed animals blood in the sanctuary (can you imagine the mess), as if that meant the commoners sins were not taken into the sanctuary. Yet the priest represented the commoners, for the priest bore their transgression and that was brought into the temple. Also all the "commoners" were represented as well in a sacrifice for the whole congregation. The priest just had to take the blood for himself and for the whole congregation into the temple, since he represented them.

I asked you to identify yourself with one of those listed in Lev. 4. Is that SO hard?

• anointed priest
• the whole congregation
• a ruler
• one of the common people

Secondly, not only Jesus spoke of the eating of the sacrifice; Paul did as well.

"We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach." (Heb. 13:10-13)

What does he mean that we eat of the table but follow Jesus, who "that he might sanctify the people with his own blood (which was sprinkled in the sanctuary in type) suffered without the gate"? Look carefully at the categorization, and you'd see why the blood of one sacrifice was taken in but of the other, no.

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James, as Dedication said, you are mixing things. Eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ has nothing to do with the symbolism of the sanctuary. First, it was the priest who ate the flesh of the sacrifice in order to bear the iniquity of the sinner. The key concept is bear the iniquity. Second, the priest did not drink the blood. So these symbolisms have nothing to do with each other.

As to Heb. 13:10-13. “We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.”
There were two kinds of offerings which belonged to the priests: 1) meat offerings, sin offerings, and trespass offerings belonged exclusively to the priests, the males, and through them they bore the iniquity of the congregation (Number 18:9, 10; see also v. 1); these should be eaten in the sanctuary; 2) the raised offering of the Israelites’ gift, along with all their wave offerings; the first fruits; everything devoted; everything that opens the womb; these were not only for the priests, but for all members of the priestly family (Numbers 18:11-19); the eating was to be done in a clean place (Lev. 10:14) within the camp (Deut. 12:6, 7, 17, 18). These offerings were given to the priests because they should have no inheritance in their land; God was their inheritance (Numbers 18:20).

So, the meaning is that those who serve the earthly tabernacle have, in fact, no portion with God; no spiritual inheritance. Their portion is just the food they receive. Our portion, however, is spiritual, for Christ died without the camp, and His blood was brought into the sanctuary to sanctify us.

But, before you say again that the heavenly sanctuary is the church, I would like to ask you: If Paul is speaking to those who are already members of the church, what does he mean when he says,

“Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh