Ellen White a Futurist?

This topic's on Ellen White and Futurism. Futurism is the opposite of Historicism and most conservative Adventists are Historicists; that is, they place most apocalyptic prophecies in the past. This thread examines whether that's a valid approach according to scripture and to Ellen White.

-------------

God deals with us in ways that we can understand. While Adventist students of prophecy can see that 1798 marked the end of an era and the beginning of the time of the end, to the average person, especially to the average evangelical Christian, the phrase, ‘time of the end’ means a short time before the close of history and the return of Christ. Few today, besides Adventists, know of the falling of the stars or the darkening of the sun two centuries ago. But Christ has said these are signs of his soon return. And He also says that the darkening of the sun etc would occur ‘immediately after’ the great tribulation, an event that was fulfilled during the 1260 years ending in 1798. But isn’t it possible that the tribulation Christ refers to not just the 1260 years of papal domination, but that it also refers to the time of trouble at the end and that the fall of the stars and darkening of the sun may happen again. I suggest it is not only possible but that its probable.

Ellen White also makes a number of statements that reapply prophecies that a strictly historical application wouldn’t allow. Conservative Adventist leaders have largely ignored these and when they have given them attention, they have explained them away in an attempt to preserve a purely historical approach to prophetic studies. This unfortunate approach has been an important factor in limiting the work of the Holy Spirit in His effort to give us clearer insight into the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. (There are other factors, especially our failure to accept and apply the message to the Laodicean Church. If we aren’t living up to the light we already have, God in mercy knows it would not be good for us to be given more and to be responsible for it as well.) But, Ellen White makes a number of statements saying that when Daniel and Revelation are properly understood and practically applied the end-time, global revival will come. Here are two of them:

Eugene Prewitt, a self-confessed staunch historicist, and, in my view one of the most effective speakers and lecturers today in Adventism, (I highly recommend most of his sermons at www.audioverse.org) says he looks forward to the possibility that his children might be among those children who Ellen White predicts will “proclaim the mysteries that have been hidden from the minds of men”. I’d like nothing more than for that hope of Brother Eugene’s to come true. But notice where these new, powerful, irrepressible truths are centered – according to Ellen White they are centered in new and revived insights into Daniel and Revelation. Given the statements from Ellen White above (and there are several others like them) on the wealth of new light that will stream from these prophecies in the future, I suggest it’s not a good idea to be staunchly historicist. Instead we must be good, open-minded Bible students when it comes to Bible prophecy.

To be fair, before quoting some of the many future application statements from Ellen White I should say that the motives of conservative Adventist leaders are good. They want to avoid sensationalism and time-setting. They assume that any reapplications of Daniel and Revelation to the future will result in this. But that’s not the case. Ellen White repeatedly makes future applications without falling into that trap. We can and should do the same. And unless we do follow her example, I suggest that we’ll miss out on the kinds of insights from the prophecies that she speaks of that will “start into action forces that cannot be repressed.” In writing that do I mean that future applications of Revelation’s prophecies are the key to revival? Not at all. The key to revival has always been prompt and thorough repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit. It has always been heeding the counsel of the True Witness. But I suggest that one of the results of a careful study of Revelation will be a clearer view of future aspects of the Great Controversy that are revealed there.

So, let’s get started. Below I’ve compiled some of Ellen White’s future applications. I’ve inserted some comments following her quotes. Here’s an interesting one:

Comment: In the italicized part quoted above Ellen White says much of the history of that prophecy in Daniel 11 will be repeated. Steven Bohr, another Adventist historicist, and an excellent evangelist, points out that Ellen White doesn’t say the prophecy itself will be repeated, but only the history of it will be repeated. In other words Elder Bohr says there is no reapplication.

But Ellen White, in saying that much of the history of it will be repeated, does apply it to the end, giving it a future application. Bible students therefore need to ask, is this a future application or not? Is the distinction valid between the prophecy itself being repeated or the history of the prophecy being repeated? If Ellen White goes to the trouble of quoting a large section of the prophecy, in this case Daniel 11:31-36, and applying it to the future, isn’t she suggesting that we study it carefully to understand its future application? When she says ‘much of’ its history will be repeated, she’s making it clear that we can expect similar events to take place again, but not events that are exactly the same in all respects; hence the need to study and restudy it.

So, regarding Elder Bohr's views I'd say, ruling out a reapplication of the verses Ellen White quotes [Dan. 11:30-36.] has the effect of discouraging careful study of the passage - who will seriously study a prophecy that has no real or actual future application? Doesn’t that position work contrary to the advice of Christ to study and understand the teaching of Daniel on the daily and the abomination of desolation? This particular part of the prophecy that Ellen White quotes has its parallel in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE but is repeated in the final persecution. See Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14. Therefore, one of our main prophetic study efforts should be on a clearer understanding of what Christ draws our attention to – the passages in Daniel regarding the abomination of desolation and comparing these with the complimentary passages in Revelation that expand on them. If we insist that all of these 'abomination' passages are in the past, we work against Christ’s advice to study them.

I'll stop there for now. Any thoughts?

This isn't really the right criterion.

There are three primary schools of thought in regards to prophetic studies, which are the Preterist view, the Historicist view, and the Futurist view. These terms have to do with where in time one places the little horn of Daniel.

The Protestants of the Reformation understood the litter horn to be a reference to the pope. This was an important development, because it gave impetus to the concept of breaking off from Rome. Until this idea came along, the thought was there was only one church, the church of Rome, and hence "Reformation," which was to reform the one church that there was.

But when it began to be seen that the papacy was anti-Christ, this opened people's eyes to the possibility that it wasn't simply a matter of reforming the church, but a deeper problem than that, which gave birth to Protestantism.

In order to counteract the impact of these prophecies, the Roman Catholic church proposed two alternatives. One was that the little horn was applying to a figure in the past (usually Antiochus Epihpanes), which is the Preterist view. This view tends to be the view of Liberals (liberals in the sense of Bible inspiration) as it allows an explanation of the prophecies of Daniel which do not involve the supernatural (no need for God's foreknowledge to explain the prophecies).

A second alternative proposed was that sometime in the future the AntiChrist would arise -- the Futurist view.

So Futurism has to do with thinking that the little horn power will come about in the future, and Historicism with putting him within history, not with how many prophecies one sees to be yet future or not.

Historicism was the predominant view of Protestism until 1844. In 1844 there was the Great Disappointment, and after this event, Historicism died off and Futurism became the predominant view. SDA's are the only Christian denomination I'm aware of that holds the Historicist view.

Historicism has a certain framework, which involves how to interpret the timing of the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel, and the 2300 days. Futurism has another framework. Within this framework, the timing of other prophecies are determined.

What are some examples of statements that reapply prophecies in a way that Conservative Adventist leaders have largely ignored?

Regarding the two quotes about how understanding Revelation will lead to revival, what I think this means is that Revelation reveals Christ in a special way, and when that revelation of Christ is understood, that will lead to revival. I think this started to happen in 1888, with the message to the church of Laodicea. Revelation and Christ, and righteousness by faith, are all bound together. It takes a right understanding of the Gospel to rightly understand Revelation.

I don't think her quotes have anything to do with the timing of events. I think the light she is talking about has to do with the light of the Gospel, and of Jesus Christ.

If we think about this logically, doesn't this make sense? What is it that's holding up Christ's coming? According to COL 69, it's a reproduction of Christ's character in His people. What leads to this reproduction? "Be beholding we become changed."

It is an understanding of the Gospel that's needed. We need to see Christ, to see God, as He really is. *This* is the light that we need from Daniel and Revelation.

It's easy to see how light involving Christ and the Gospel would impact our character. It's not so easy to see how understanding the timing of events does this.

I'm not saying it's not important to understand these things. We have the Great Controversy, which gives a good framework for the timing of things to come. I'm just saying that I think the light that she's referring to has to do with Christ and the Gospel, and one can't rightly make an argument that certain events should be interpreted as occurring in the future because of these statements of Ellen White's. I think that would be making her say something she wasn't intending.

i have always understood statements such as these to refer more specifically to these points.

I'm not sure if I should have used the term historicist. You understand my concern though - not allowing for the possibility that yes, maybe the stars will fall again etc.

Tom, Teresa, I'm postulating that one reason revival is lacking in Adventism (there have been some signs of it lately among the youth and young adults, praise God, but we need much more) is that our unwillingness to see future applications to much of Daniel and Revelation is giving us tunnel vision, limiting our view of the great controversy and therefore limiting our understanding of the character of God. God reveals Himself in history, past and future. If we don't see His future work of judgment clearly, which all the prophets have born witness to starting with Enoch, we won't take on the attributes of His character.

I'll start giving some of the many reapplications she makes.

Mark, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Daniel and Revelation has much to say about the coming Judgment. And how we understand the judgement deeply effects our view of God which will make us a candidate to be seal of the True God, or a false.

I'm looking forward to see this thread develop.

Me too, Mark. It will be interesting to see the examples you present.

Here's one: This one says the trumpets of Rev 8 & 9 are future:

Here's another one. This one places both the trumpets and the seals of Rev 6 in the future:


See also T9 267 where Ellen White links the seals to the plagues as she does in the above passage. To keep it short I haven't quoted the full passage above, but this passage links all three - the plagues, seals, and trumpets - and places them in the future.

There are many more fascinating quotes that would challenge our views. I'll be posting more samples but I don't have time to make many comments. The quotes are quite clear on their own though. I'll try to post more tomorrow but these just give you a taste. There are similar statments from her pen on most, if not all of the major prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

As long as the meaning of the trumpets as they apply to past events isn't thrown away, I don't think there's a problem, as far as our views is concerned. There has been a discussion regarding whether the events in Revelation have multiple fulfillments for a long time. This is not new.

I think it would be a big help if you could include comments, like you have here. Just a sentence or two is fine. That should take a trivial amount of time compared to finding the right quotes, and copying and pasting them. I believe it helps a great deal, as the short comment makes clear how the quotes illustrate the point you're wishing to make.

Looking forward to seeing the quotes.

What if the meaning of the past application are not sound? I know this is not new, but have we learn anything from the past threads?

Did the Ottoman Empire really fall in 1840 and is it related to the 7 trumpets?
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=107899#Post107899

Show me with the Bible how Trumpet #5 applies to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and show me objective historical prove that the Ottoman Empire did fall in 1840.

Litch that made this Bible study and prediction,later on wrote in another of his book, that he was wrong. However, U. Smith kept the interpretation as true in his. So since U.Smith book has been endorse by Ellen White, now we are married to this interpretation despite the fact Litch said he was wrong. What if it were false and Ellen White never meant to say it was true?

If you can show me these, please respond in the Ottomen Empire thread that I provided the link for so to not vear off-topic in this thread.

Agreed Mark.

"Let us read and study the 12th chapter of Daniel. It is a warning we shall all need to understand before the time of the end." - Letter 161. July 30, 1903.

I believe we're asleep at the switch. Over 150 years as a 'movement' and nothing substantially new in prophetic understanding. As if the Bible were limited. It's a very sorry state.

Confusion and stagnation have resulted from rejecting light. The repentance of Daniel 9 is required. It won't happen at the Corporate level, but individually.

Much baggage needs be jettisoned, books burned, etc.

Whatever selected texts apply to the time of Jacobs trouble doesn't make even that application futurist. Futurism is applying Dan 8:9-14 to our future, not the trumpets or seals. Expecting the tribulation to precede the 2nd Coming, and have prophetic characteristics repeating themselves - even the little horn's fulfilment repeating itself, is a continuation of historicism, not so.

Gordon study of prophecy for our future hasn't stopped, that I've seen. The only wrong move is dismantling historicism for the little horn and its time periods.

The repentance of Dan 9 is a thing to be studied, too, and it is corporate - whatever the likelihood of that is!

How much more detail do we need for the future than that the latter rain should precede the mark of the beast?

only that some read things one way and someone else reads them another way.

its that blue/green thing.

Here's a familiar one that reinforces the idea that the trumpets and seals have a future application and describe the judgments of God mixed with mercy before the close of probation. The future application of the trumpets and seals appear to be this 'little time of trouble' Ellen White speaks of below and may not bear much resemblance to their initial fulfilment:



If all seven trumpets and seals take place of a period of months rather than centuries, I suggest the original fulfilment may not be that helpful to us. The past applications were symbolic, the future will likely be much more literal.

(Is it my browser or computer that's centering all of the text or is it the forum?)

Regarding Revelation 11 Ellen White says it applies to the future, just before the close of probation when God rains fire and brimstone as well as other less supernatural disasters on the great cities of the world.


When you have a chance turn to Rev 11 and look to see how she has applied this. Rather than looking for a future fulfillment that closely parallels our past interpretation, note how widely different her future application is on this chapter. The sins of atheistic France - licentiousness and idolatry - will be the hallmarks of the cities that bear the judgments of God, but beyond that, we have to let the prophecy speak for itself. This quote is one that you, Elle might tuck away in the back of your mind for future reference; it may strengthen your faith in Ellen White’s prophetic gift when this is fulfilled. She is clearly speaking as a prophet here. I would never have applied this passage as she’s done.

I don't think it's the forum.

Thanks for thinking of me Mark and I did go to find what verses in Rev 11 this might refer to. All I can come close was Rev 11:5. Do you think it refers to the fire and brimstone that will destroy the big cities? Hmmmm. I really have a hard time to see that text saying that. Here's some Bible text, in blue are my comments.

To me this text is referring that "fire proceedeth out" of the mouth of the two witnesses(the 144K) and "devoureth their enemies". To be frank with you, I don't know what is that fire. I don't think it is literal, however I was more expecting a two edge sword as they will be prophecizing with power the word of God for 1260 days. But maybe that symbol is uniquely reserved to describe Jesus and that is why it is describe as "Fire" here. These 144K will be speaking by the two witnesses(1. word of God and 2. the spirit). So maybe these two together makes fire in some symbolic ways convicting the hearers by devouring all their wrong pre-conceived opinions. I don't know and it's something I would like to dig deeper and find scripture to explain this.

However, I do believe that Ellen White is right that Rev 11 is futur and her warnings are true that we need to get out of the cities, especially the big ones. In the big cities, there's a concentration of people. I'm sure Satan, when he appears in person with his angels will perform most of their shows in the big cities. Calling fire coming down from heaven will be Satan's biggest miracle to deceive many. God didn't allow the 144K to call fire from heaven during their 1260days of prophesy, but will allow Satan. See the text below :

I'd have a hard time with it too if it wasn't Ellen White. Like I said above, her application surprised me as well. But I don't doubt it will happen.

It's not clear if she's saying that individuals will be called to warn wicked cities before the event, like Jonah. At a minimum she's saying that God will rain fire and brimstone on them because of their unwillingess to listen to the testimony of His two Witnesses, the Word and the Spirit of Prophecy (the SOP in the broader sense.)

I don't think she's saying this! She had written:



In addition, for God to rain fire and brimstone on others because of their unwillingness to listen to His Witnesses would be contrary to the following counsel, it seems to me:



Anyway, back to Rev. 11 and EGW's comment.



I think this verse may have been especially on her mind. You'll notice she wrote her comments in May of 1906. The San Francisco earthquake occurred in April of 1906.

According to Ellen White, the seven thunders of Revelation 10 are also future:

It's not either/or in my view, Tom. It's cause and effect, but behind the scenes God's providences, His mercies and His justice always prevail. God is a lawgiver and yet he is the fountain of mercy. All things work together for our good.

OK, so far we have the abomination of desolation in Daniel, the seals, trumpets, thunders, and testimony of the two witnesses, all future. Those items are found roughly in Daniel 8, 9, 11, 12, Revelation 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11. What about the introductory scenes to the seals and trumpets, Revelation 4 and 5 and Revelation 8:1-5 respectively. Here's a quote on Revelation 5:


That Ellen White above is applying Revelation 5 to the future is clear. The question is, when is she aplying it to. I suggest that if the passage is read in its context she makes a dual application - both to the future. Her first application is to the 'little time of trouble' and the second is to the execution of the judgment at the end of the millineum.

If you're using the phrase that God "rains fire and brimstone" upon those who have rejected His witnesses in the sense that things play out as EGW explained in 14MR 3, then I agree with you, and am sorry if I misunderstood you. Also, I'm not wanting to derail your thread. It's just that I feel constrained to comment in some way when I see certain things.

Would you explain this please?

revelation 11:1-13 has already happened, that it may have a dual ap is a possibility. she says that history will repeat itself. i read that differently than as a "dual" ap.

but, rev 11:14-19 has not happened yet, so cannot have a dual ap. it is quite possible that she simply meant we need to study them in the light that the second woe is past and that we should be attentive to the third woe coming.

putting all the bible texts together that relate to this period would put this in perspective, i believe. it is possible this is what she was refering to:Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Comment: In the above passage two things are remarkable: One is the implication that the vision applies to the very end of time primarily and the second is that we will need the spirit of Daniel to stand at that time.

The vision that chapter 10 introduces -(found in chapters 11 and 12) contains the most detailed information on the abomination of desolation, the warning that Christ has told us to read and understand. “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.” Matthew 24:15.

Regarding that warning Ellen White says:

It seems to me that she is looking to apply principles from a given prophecy to other situations. That is, she appears to me to have thunk more in terms of "the principles of this prophecy has other applications" than "this prophecy has multiple fulfillments."

I'm curious as to the thoughts of others on this thread regarding this.

Actually, it seems to me in general that the real value in the prophecy is ferreting out the principle involved. We know the whole Bible is about Christ, but how that is the case isn't always right on the surface.

Well, friends, you be the judge. In the passages quoted above and in the ones following, is Ellen White saying study the principles of these prophecies; the details of them have no future application? Or, is she saying study the prophecies themselves in detail and from that you will understand the principles? Isn’t it the latter? In the passages I’ve quoted she’s directed our attention to these things and urged that we study them in detail. Why? Because God reveals Himself in history, past and future. If we don't see His future work of judgment clearly, which all the prophets have born witness to starting with Enoch, we won't take on the attributes of His character.

Ellen White’s burden and hopefully mine and yours is character development. We so much need to eat that little prophetic book that’s open in the hand of the Mighty Angel so that we can become like Him. Every Christian, and the devil to, is familiar with the claim that God is love. But it’s in reviewing His great acts in the past and in the future in detail, meditating on them and assimilating them into our souls that our characters are transformed into His image.

And I feel I should add this warning: One who teaches that God never brings judgment but that judgment is only a matter of cause and effect, is not teaching about the God of the Bible because we know that God Himself will 'bring every work into judgment'. Mercy and justice are active divine principles that are at the foundation of God's throne, of heaven's government of universal order and of love. These two principles – mercy and justice - are far more than being mere cause and effect. They are the active principles of heaven. They often work in harmony with the laws of cause and effect, so that on the surface it may seem that natural laws govern. But the active principles that under gird all that transpires in the universe are these two – mercy and justice - and both of these issue from the Divine throne. These are Biblical facts. Anyone who swerves from them and suggests that God does not personally hold intelligent beings accountable, that God does not personally reward both the righteous and the wicked according to their works, however well intended, is undermining the picture of the character of God presented clearly in sacred history and recorded accurately in Scripture.

To quote you, I don't think it's either or. I was commenting on Ellen White's mindset. It seems to me her thinking was more along the lines of applying principles of certain prophecies to other circumstances as opposed to saying "this prophecy of Daniel (or Revelation) has multiple fulfillments. First there's (pick some event or year), then there's this (event or year) yet to come as well.

Regarding "Or, is she saying study the prophecies themselves in detail and from that you will understand the principles?" this question seems out of place as an "or" question. Certainly one can choose to study the prophecies in detail without having to exclude oneself from also being able to apply its principles, right? That is, it's not as if one much choose to do one thing or the other.

im not seeing the connection between the principles of the prophecies and possible future applications.

all the sites ive come across with future applications seemed to be more about trying to work out to the last detail what will happen. but i cant remember seeing anything about Jesus life, the difference between what He was and how we are

it seems to me that we can study the ongoing judgment, im assuming you mean the investigative judgment, but i havent seen where that helps us take on the attributes of Christ. ellen white says to study Christs life, isnt that what would make us judgment and heaven-ready?

if you could explain a little more how believing there are future applications could make us more Christlike?

i think im asking also, that you didnt mean to give the impression that we are to disregard the life of Christ and study the judgments(?) of the ot, instead?

Regarding the comments about judgment, the idea seems to be that if God does not do something beyond cause and effect, then He is not personally holding people accountable. But the Biblical principle is "What you sow, so shall you reap." (cause and effect).

The SOP puts it like this:



Both the righteous and the wicked "receive the results of their own choice." This is the principle of sowing and reaping. This is cause and effect.

It sounds as if it's being implied that God can only hold people to be personally responsible for their actions by not allowing them to receive the principles of their choice, or not allowing them to reap what they have sown (cause and effect).

isnt the reward for the righteous eternal life?

and the reward for the lost eternal death?

Colin, "nothing substantially new" is the issue. Yes the studies continue in circles.

The repentance is corporate yes, but not Corporate. The body of true believers will all individually repent; Silver Springs - you are correct, no likelihood.
____

It's not only the sites with future applications that try to work out future events to the last detail, it's historical sites as well. I agree both kinds of sites are misleading. The Lord has sealed the seven thunders and, as a matter of principle, it's not good for us to know all the details.

Regarding how our characters are transformed by all scripture:

So, studying the future prophecies should be like studying the atonement: For the atonement we can't penetrate every mystery by speculating on what God hasn't revealed of the great mysteries - such as the fine questions of the personality and nature of God and Christ - but we can and and should study and meditate on the things that are clearly recorded about the life of Christ in detail. The same principle applies to the study of prophecy and especially to those greatest furture acts of God and of Christ. Christian meditation zooms in on the details. Eastern meditation supposedly empties the mind sweeping it clean and inviting seven spirits more foul than thoses that were there before.

first the question had more to do with believing there are future applications to prophecy somehow changing our characters....

but how would you see the messenger of the Lords counsel, which includes the biblical counsel as well, matching up with yours?

Well, how does it work Teresa? According to the above, we do very much need to drink the blood and eat the flesh of the Son of God first before we're able to bring out the treasures of Daniel and Revelation and be instrumental in setting in motion 'forces that can't be repressed.' I agree that's the starting point. It also says, "If any man's will is to do His will, he will know of the doctrine . . "

What the readers need to ask themselves now is: "Has Mark made any observations or brought out any truths that are timely on this thread?"

Sure Mark, you have indeed. Most importantly perhaps is agitating the truth of: future prophecy yet unfulfilled.

Daniel & Revelation are not for everyone. Those who are not right with God will walk in the sparks of their own kindling. For this reason there is much confusion and very many different interpretations. We need to search ourselves before we search the prophecies. - Are all my sins confessed? Are all my wrongs made right?
____

I'm more inclined to think that if they are past, they are past, or if they are future, they are future (as opposed to thinking that there are multiple fulfillments).

I think so. Just because I don't see eye to eye on everything you've shared doesn't mean I don't appreciate some of the insights you've brought out.

I'm quite happy to accept multiple fulfillments. That is just like God to have something so well planned as to see it happen twice (or more).

Many prophecies in the Bible have at least two fulfillments. That we do not always see them does not make them any less existent.

Some prophecies, in fact, have nearly perpetual fulfillment until the end of time. "Ye shall be hated of all men for my sake" would be a good example of this. It applied to nearly every generation of Christians to follow. That's plenty more than one fulfillment. Much of the prophecy concerning the fall of Jerusalem applies also to the last days.

Rosangela, if the prophecies are only applied once, do you feel that there will be no further events such as the stars falling, the moon turning to blood, and the sun being darkened? Those events were fulfilled already, were they not?

I'm inclined to think they may have another literal fulfillment. And I am a firmly convinced believer in that they will have a symbolic fulfillment.

What do stars represent? God's saints. Will some of them fall? Sadly, yes.

What does the moon represent? The spirit of prophecy. Will it be crucified in the court of public opinion? I believe so.

What does the sun represent? The light of Christ (the "greater light"). Will it be darkened? In this day and age, with atheism becoming so rampant, and people mocking the "Bible-thumping" Christians so openly whilst rejecting the truths of God's Word, I think it is an undeniable fact that the light is being withdrawn from the earth. Does not Ellen White say this would happen?

Therefore, I see a double fulfillment here in each of these prophecies.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hi Mark

I'm hoping to see more on this important topic. I know that most will agree to dual and multiple prophecy fufillment, however, I have a problem with this and leads us to deception and confusion. I lean to a single timeline prophecy fulfillment.

Is there anywhere in the Bible that support dual-fulfillment of prophesy? I would like to see that.

Elle,

The destruction of Jerusalem is a clear example of dual fulfillment. Ellen White tells us this would be repeated. This is why praying that our flight be not on the Sabbath day has been discussed in this forum.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I should add that depending on how you interpret the prophecy in Ezekiel 4, which already spoke of two separate fulfillments, the destruction of Jerusalem may been seen as having triple fulfillment. In any case, there is yet a fulfillment to occur for God's remnant people and not for the literal city of Jerusalem.



Here's another one with clear language about a second fulfillment of a single prophecy:



Well, that's two prophecies now with dual fulfillments--destruction of Jerusalem and the Gospel preached to all nations.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, I think you missed one word -- No dual or multiple Fulfillments for "TIMELINE" Prophecies.

I'm not talking about seeing similar aspects of previous prophecies taking place in the futur. Ezekiel prophecied two disctinct destructions of Jerusalem.

1st destruction in 586BC : For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. (Eze 4:5)

2nd destruction 70AD: "And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." (Eze 4:6)

I'm sure you are not saying that we're going to see another 390 years or 40 years prophecy for Jerusalem to be destroy again? Right?

Elle,

I'm sorry, I sure did miss that word. I went back to look for it and am still missing it. But let's look at the amended question for a minute. Please explain the question to me more, because I am now confused as to what exactly your question is.

All prophecies with specific fulfillments land somewhere on a time line, whether it be the point in time the prophecy was given, or the point in time that the prophecy was fulfilled, or the lapse of time between these two points. In other words, I am unclear on your definition of a "timeline prophecy." What do you mean by this term, and why do you consider the destruction of Jerusalem to not be a "timeline prophecy?" Are you speaking of only the last fulfillment of the prophecy? or the entire prophecy?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hi Green, Sorry for the confusion. I'm unsure what you mean with your questions above, so I think we are not understanding each other. So, let me try to clarify myself. First I specified timeline prophecy in my reply to Mark. Here's the quote
What I mean with timeline prophesy, is like in the example of Ezek 4. Ez 4 were a "timeline" prophesies . You brought that example to say it was a dual fulfillment of the same event. Yes it was the same event, however, a prophesy for each or two prophecies in one. It was very specific that the event was to happen twice by describing two specific time for each events to be fulfilled.

Therefore, in the example of Ezekiel 4, there was two timeline prophesy denoted, so therefore it was two prophesy:
1. 390 days/years for the first destruction of Jerusalem
2. 40 days/years for the second.

Each timeline had only one fulfillment and I'm sure you are not expecting that Ez 4 timelines of 390 years or 40years timeline will be fulfill another time. Right?

So, I'm launching as a statement or principle of prophesy interpretation that

"All prophesies in the Bible that has a define literal time associated to it, has only one fulfillment in this earth history."

I'm not saying that my statement is true, and that's why I'm asking if anyone knows any other singel timeline prophecy in the Bible that has a dual fulfillment?

I know I have trouble explaining my thoughts, so if this is unclear, do let me know.

Why should we look for something entirely new?
I firmly believe what happened in the French Revolution (and EGW devoted a whole chapter explaining Rev. 11 as it played out in the French Revolution) will be repeated in the cities. It's not just "licenciousness" and "idolatry" it's A REVOLUTION -- A Reign of Terror -- people overturning the constitutional government BY FORCE, terror where people turn against each other and people are killed by the thousands. Read that chapter in Great Controversy -- chapter 15 --

I don't believe in "futurism" I believe the historical elements of strife revealed in prophecy (elements which are not dead by any means) will all be engaged in a bitter, terrible time of trouble -- it's by understanding the prophetic meaning in its historical setting that we can understand what elements of strife will erupt in the future.

It's in the cities where the "blood baths" tend to occur. Out of the cities -- if you want to escape the most terrible 'revolution" "reign of terror" that will come.

EGW clearly and forcefully relates Revelation 11 to the French Revolution (GC chpt 15)-- HISTORY (not prophecy) will repeat itself in an awful REVOLUTION and "reign of terror" in the cities.

America is already preparing for it.

The "fire and brimstone" may well be "nuclear explosions".

The same type of thing happened in Jerusalem just before its fall in 70A.D. where factions within the city were turning on each other in horrendous crimes of terror, revolting against the govenment and killing anyone that didn't go along with them. Finally the Romans ended it by burning the city, the temple and many of the people within the city. It too is an example of what the trouble at the end of this earth's history will be like.
"Satan will plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." {FLB 215.5}

Yes, get out of the cities -- the scenes of the French reign of terror will be played out again.

you stated that very well, dedication.

better than i think i could have done.

and it is so very true.

what happened in jerusalem at the babylonian captivity, in 70ad, the overthrow of babylon, so many historical examples of what it will be like when we are not personally connected with our Savior...

it will be more than horrible.

trying to make future applications without firmly holding onto a knowledge of what happened in the past just leaves us groundless, it takes away from the great controversy that is so important for us to understand and makes everything meaningless and happenstance.

its more along the lines of psychic predictions with no rhyme or reason.

very, very, good points you brought out!

I agree --
Time prophecies are linear NOT circular.
They have a starting point and an end point.

A lot of confusion has come into Adventist circles due to people trying to break down the day/year principle and reapply these timelines to various situations. Some claiming prophetic time lines aren't literal time and thus taking license to dispense with the day/year principle and come up with new intepretions with what they call literal time.
However, all those prophetic timelines are already LITERAL YEARS, and by reverting them into "days" we are only destroying the day/year principles which give these prophecies the foundation upon which our beliefs are built.

For example -- The 70 weeks or 490 days started in 457 B.C. and pointed to Messiah's coming and starting His ministry in 27 A.D. crucified in "the midst of the last week" in 31 A.D. and the apostles continuing to confirm the covenant with the Jews FIRST till the 490 years had come to a close in 34 A.D.

The 70 weeks, or 490 day/years will not be repeated, they are fulfilled.

All the timelines have a beginning date and ending date. They were all FUTURE at the time when they were written.

In the last 50 or so years I've seen those timelines misapplied to all kinds of dates and "possibilities" with people claiming it is the "new light of present truth" which the church must accept, only to be embarrased as their carefully crafted and detailed speculative timelines crashed.

We've been warned OVER AND OVER not to focus on time again for ANY future events leading up to Christ's coming.



"I want you to see that it is not in the providence of God that any finite man shall, by any device or reckoning that he may make of figures, or of symbols, or of types, know with any definiteness in regard to the very period of the Lord's coming.{10MR 272.1}

"God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept for ourselves and for our children; but let us not seek to know that which has been kept secret in the councils of the Almighty. {1SM 191.1}

"there is no command for anyone to search the Scripture in order to ascertain, if possible, when probation will close. God has no such message for any mortal lips.{1SM 191.2}

Exactly! Agreed!

People want the future outlined in step by step detail in psychic fashion as that gives a sense of control, yet it is by understanding the historic unscrolling of the prophecies as they reveal events over centuries of earth's history, that we can understand the issues and who the last day players will be.
We've been warned to leave the cities, etc., and now the REVIVAL we need is to be so connected with Christ, settled in truth, that nothing can move us away from Him.

Yes, as was brought out earlier -- the 1888 message --
The faith of Jesus indwelling us, guiding us, saving us, sustaining us; and living the righteous law of God with patient endurance.
Can we see the 1888 message in the prophecies?

It's the Laodicean call --
Let Christ fully into our lives
Buy His gold of faith
His robe of righteousness
His eye salve of descernment



Faith is the victory that overcomes the world.
Faith in Christ!

Mark or Eugene: Can you offer a harmonizing explanation here?

I recall she also wrote that Daniel 11:30-45 (preamble to Christ standing up) would be repeated, but can't locate the source.
____________

What is the warning in Daniel 12?


"there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

So what is the important thing here?

Those who will be delivered must have what?

------their Names written in the Book (of Life) ---------

vs 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white,

What is the important thing here?


Compare:



Everyone else will end up worshipping the beast,



"And there shall in no wise enter into it (heavenly Jerusalem) any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" [Rev. 21:27].
Well may you ask, "Is my name written there?" It is registered in that book of life if you have a character that is pure and holy like the character of Christ. Faith in the truth alone will not save us. We must be like Christ if we shall one day see Him as He is.
"Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure." Any hope aside and separate from purity and righteousness is a snare of Satan, sophistry, and fatal delusion. {TSB 134.4}