The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?

Posted By: Charity

The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/21/11 07:27 PM

Today is May 21, 2011, Judgment Day for some. It’s a few minutes after noon EDT which is when the first shock waves are predicted. But rather than scorning our friends who are looking for a major quake event we should acknowledge that they're partly right. There is indeed a judgment going on today – one that will turn soon to the judgment of the Living.

So, today is an appropriate day, earthquake or no, to look at the above question. The Judgment of the Living is described in several places in Daniel and Revelation and other scripture and Lord willing, we’ll look at some of them, but perhaps the clearest single description of it is in Revelation 11. In Revelation 10 we have the Great Awakening of the Millerites and others who proclaimed a message of repentance and the soon return of Christ. They are symbolized by John who eats the bitter-sweet little book. But John is told to prophecy again and is given a new commission: To rise and measure the church symbolized by the temple, altar and those who worship there. This is the same message as given in Ezekiel’s temple where the Glory of God returns to Spiritual Israel and the very same items are measured and cleansed – the temple, the bronze altar and the inner court. What we have in Ezekiel is an amplification of the symbols in Revelation 11 of the measuring of God’s people at the judgment of the living. Ezekiel’s temple is a message of warning and of hope that we can be overcomers and fully clothed in the righteousness of Christ and reflectors of the Glory of God. Please study the passage below comparing it with the measuring message of Revelation 11 and with the full temple description in Ezekiel and share your thoughts.
Quote:

Eze 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
Eze 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. . .
Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
Eze 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
Eze 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
Eze 43:8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
Eze 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
Eze 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/21/11 09:03 PM

The fact there are people who believe the rapture will occur today is evidence people need divine help in correctly interpreting the prophecies. Regarding the judgment of the living and where it is found in the Bible we, fortunately for us, have God's blessing and stamp of approval placed on the correct interpretation. This interpretation is clearly spelled out in books like The Great Controversy. We are not left to wonder and flounder as to which interpretation is correct.

Quote:
Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1}

When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12. {GC 490.2}

As of 1911 (the date the statement above was made)the judgment of the living had not yet begun. Whatever we discover in studying the prophecies, therefore, must not place the beginning of the judgment of the living before 1911. "Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven." At which time everyone alive will fall into one of two categories - "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

This being the case, it does not make sense to assume the just and righteous people named above will be allowed to die before Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory. This being said, it also makes sense to assume the people numbered and sealed during the judgment of the living will be translated alive (as opposed to resurrected and translated) when Jesus arrives.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/22/11 07:41 AM

Mark, as I had previously expressed in the thread where you introduced this idea (Post #133687), I agree with your ‘current judgement’ understand of Rev 11 (- the literal application of its time elements). Here is the link to my thematically similar study on this issue.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/24/11 01:47 PM

MM, if you look at other EG White statements it's clear that she believed a measuring of the church and its members was underway in her day.

Here's one of a small group of statements:
Quote:
In my dream a sentinel stood at the door of an important building, and asked every one who came for entrance, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost?" A measuring-line was in his hand, and only very, very few were admitted into the building. "Your size as a human being is nothing," he said. "But if you have reached the full stature of a man in Christ Jesus, according to the knowledge you have had, you will receive an appointment to sit with Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb; and through the eternal ages, you will never cease to learn of the blessings granted in the banquet prepared for you. {1SM 109.2}

"You may be tall and well-proportioned in self, but you cannot enter here. None can enter who are grown-up children, carrying with them the disposition, the habits, and the characteristics which pertain to children. . . . {1SM 110.1}


Let me be clear though that I don't believe the judgment of the living has begun for the world. Why? Because the church at this point does not meet the specifications of the two witnesess. It should be our goal individually and collectively to come into harmony with God so that we can witness effectively for Him. Doesn't it stand to reason that if we are to give the Elijah message we have to have the Elijah character. We should be studying the examples of John the Baptist and Elijah and candidly asking ourselves how we measure up.

But MM, is my view that in 1844 Adventism was re-commissioned to give the measuring/judgment hour message biblical? Isn't this what Revelation 11 describes. The disappointed Millerists were told to rise from their disappointment and once more give the measuring message of the three angels. NJK has arrived at a similar conclusion. What do the rest of you think?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/24/11 08:14 PM

Mark, it seems clear to me that Ellen believed as late as 1911 that the sealing described in Rev 7 was still future. She wrote:

Quote:
Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1}

And, yes, Jesus raised up the SDA church out of the ruins of the Great Disappointment and commissioned her to "prophesy again". Although part of the message includes informing the world that the investigative of the dead commenced in 1844, nevertheless, I believe the first angel's message refers specifically to the final "hour of judgment", that is, the time in earth's history when it includes the living, which cannot happen until sometime after the world begins enforcing Sunday Laws.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/25/11 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Let me be clear though that I don't believe the judgment of the living has begun for the world. Why? Because the church at this point does not meet the specifications of the two witnesess. It should be our goal individually and collectively to come into harmony with God so that we can witness effectively for Him. Doesn't it stand to reason that if we are to give the Elijah message we have to have the Elijah character. We should be studying the examples of John the Baptist and Elijah and candidly asking ourselves how we measure up.

But MM, is my view that in 1844 Adventism was re-commissioned to give the measuring/judgment hour message biblical? Isn't this what Revelation 11 describes. The disappointed Millerists were told to rise from their disappointment and once more give the measuring message of the three angels. NJK has arrived at a similar conclusion. What do the rest of you think?


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
And, yes, Jesus raised up the SDA church out of the ruins of the Great Disappointment and commissioned her to "prophesy again". Although part of the message includes informing the world that the investigative of the dead commenced in 1844, nevertheless, I believe the first angel's message refers specifically to the final "hour of judgment", that is, the time in earth's history when it includes the living, which cannot happen until sometime after the world begins enforcing Sunday Laws.


To be crucially clear here, I do not see Rev 11 as being a message on the judgement of the world in general, but only on the leaders of what was then God’s Church. In the Historical Age, that what the Catholic Church, and in the Eschatological Age, I see that it is upon the leaders of the present SDA Church. Indeed I do not see this post Rev 10 events prophecy as beginning to be fulfilled, in continuation of Rev 10 until only recently (ca. 1996ff). So I do not see it as representative of the “judgement of the Living” which not only includes also the laity of the Church, but also ultimately the whole world.

Also just like it was the applicable Two Witnesses of the ‘Word of God’ that triumphed during the fulfillement on the Catholic Church (i.e., vs. its leaders and teachers of falsehoods), I see that in the present Eschatological fulfillement, it is the fuller meaning of this symbol involving the Full Work of Moses and Elijah, among other applicable prophets that will triumph against the indeed opposing stance of the SDA Church, mainly due to the indifferent obstinacy and wrong example of its leaders who could and should know/teach/do better. I.e., in regards to God’s fuller Truths, pointedly in regards to the fuller meaning of the Sabbath (= Moses) and the idolatrous opposing Capitalistic ways that it categorically stands against (= Elijah).
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/25/11 01:51 AM

OK, NJK, thanks for your clarifying. smile MM is closer to my thinking it looks like. But MM, is the fact that we're not seeing the fulfilment of the two witness at this point a lack of Sunday laws or is it that the church is so conformed to the world that it excites no opposition?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/25/11 04:54 AM

Mark, I think the world is tolerating Christianity and not too concerned about us (whether on fire or conformed to the world, it doesn't matter). But when Sunday-keeping Christians begin blaming SDAs for the rash of disasters decimating their personal fortunes, I believe the prophecy regarding the two witnesses will have another fulfillment in the persecution and martyrdom they will heap on SDAs until probation closes. During this time a shaking will happen among SDAs and only those members faithful to the 28 fundamental beliefs will remain. The others, a majority, will join the ranks of the opposition. Their place will be filled by those who respond to the call to come out of Babylon and join the ranks of the Remnant Church (a purged and purified SDA church and, most likely, divested and devoid of her former infrastructure and financial holdings).

Does this sound like what you believe?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/25/11 05:00 AM

PS - I believe the investigative judgment of the living will only include people who embrace the 3AMs and are numbered and sealed among the 144,000 and translated alive when Jesus arrives. Everyone else will undergo the investigative judgment while they are dead.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/25/11 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
OK, NJK, thanks for your clarifying. MM is closer to my thinking it looks like.


If you guys are seeing a/the fulfillment of the Investigative Judgement in Revelation 11, then for exegetical reasons, I see that you are off the mark here, indeed as the historical fulfillment revealed. Namely this Rev. 11 prophecy had then been fulfilled in 1798 while the Investigative Judgement could have been fully fulfilled between Miller’s 1843 date and October 22, 1844. As exegetically demonstrated, the prophecy of the Two Witnesses was for a judgement on the leadership. I.e., it started at God’s Sanctuary, with the Catholic Church leaders (cf. Ezek 9:6). I do not see that your view on this prophecy is Biblically/Exegetically inclusive of all the applicable elements mentioned therein as it needs to be.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/25/11 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
During this time a shaking will happen among SDAs and only those members faithful to the 28 fundamental beliefs will remain. The others, a majority, will join the ranks of the opposition.


If the SDA’s Fundamental Beliefs continue to be at the elementary, mere profession stage that they currently are, then I do not see anyone in the present Church objecting to them, let alone leaving the Church. That is indeed why they continue to be members of the SDA Church today. I rather see that when these beliefs will be advanced to the Spiritual and practical level that they should be, and also expand to include more, currently non-observed Biblical requirements, most revolving around the “fuller” understanding of God’s Sabbath, (cf. this blog post), that most will refuse to advance in that Biblical light. Like with the letter of the law observance of the Sabbath vs. Sunday, most Christians prefer the one-hour Sunday substitute vs. the 24-hour Sabbath law. People naturally agree to whatever does not require a large part of their actual time, means, attention and/or effort.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 05/28/11 01:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
But when Sunday-keeping Christians begin blaming SDAs for the rash of disasters decimating their personal fortunes, I believe the prophecy regarding the two witnesses will have another fulfillment in the persecution and martyrdom they will heap on SDAs until probation closes.


This statement reminds me of a couple of comments I’ve made elsewhere:

(1) I have commented in this post on the Biblical fact that God, as He is doing by holding back the “Four Winds,” will not allow such prophesied, pivotal, natural disasters to begin to take place until the due/full Gospel work, which inherently involves the Three Angels Message, is actually done, as God expects for it to be done.

(2) As stated before, as shown in this post, the prophesy of Rev 11 focuses on the leadership. The “rest” of God’s professed people are not subject to this judgement, which is actually done to them by God’s Two Witnesses.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/04/11 04:38 PM

What about the question? Where is the judgment of the living identified in scripture?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/04/11 06:01 PM

Good question. I'm glad we have the SOP to guide us and that Jesus has not left us to our own devices to discern and determine the truth. The Great Controversy provides biblical testimony regarding the judgment of the dead and the living. There is no clearer or more authoritative study on the subject than this. What is your opinion of her study?

She also wrote:

Quote:
We are living in the great antitypical day of atonement. Jesus is now in the heavenly sanctuary, making reconciliation for the sins of his people, and the judgment of the righteous dead has been going on almost forty years. How soon the cases of the living will come in review before this tribunal we know not; but we do know that we are living in the closing scenes of earth's history, standing, as it were, on the very borders of the eternal world. It is important that each of us inquire, How stands my case in the courts of Heaven? Will my sins be blotted out? Am I defective in character, and so blinded to these defects by the customs and opinions of the world, that sin does not appear to me to be as exceedingly offensive to God as it really is? It is no time now to allow our minds to be absorbed with the things of earth, while we give only occasional thoughts to God, and make but slight preparation for the country to which we are journeying. {ST, May 29, 1884 par. 3}

In the typical day of atonement, every man was required to afflict his soul before God. He was not to afflict the souls of others, but the work was between God and his own soul. The same work of self-examination and humiliation is required of each of us now; and I entreat you to make thorough work for eternity. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found; call ye upon him while he is near." Precious, golden moments which should be spent in seeking the inward adorning of a meek and quiet spirit, are frittered away in adorning the dress, and in other trifling matters not at all essential to comfort. {ST, May 29, 1884 par. 4}

In the following passages Ellen addresses the allegations she claimed under inspiration the judgment of the living had begun:

Quote:
Several times during the past winter [1888-89.] I have met the report that, during the Conference at Minneapolis, "Sister White was shown that the judgment, which since 1844 had been passing upon the righteous dead, had now begun upon the living." This report is not true. A similar rumor, which has been afloat for about two years, originated in this wise: In a letter written from Basel, Switzerland, to a minister in California I made a remark substantially as follows: "The judgment has been over forty years in progress on the cases of the dead, and we know not how soon it will pass to the cases of the living." The letter was read to different persons, and careless hearers reported what they thought they heard. Thus the matter started. The report from Minneapolis arose from someone's misunderstanding of a statement to the same effect as the one quoted from the letter. There is no other foundation for either report than this. {5T 692.1}

Secondly, report has it that a minister now living has been seen by me in vision as saved in the kingdom of God, thus representing that his final salvation is assured. There is no truth whatever in this statement. The word of God lays down the conditions of our salvation, and it rests wholly with ourselves whether or not we will comply with them. {5T 692.2}

Says the Revelator: "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." {5T 692.3}

"Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless." "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." "And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: to the end He may stablish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints." "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." {5T 692.4}

Here we have the Bible election plainly stated. Here are specified who shall be crowned in the city of God and who shall have no part with the just. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." {5T 693.1}

The third report states that, in the Conference at Minneapolis, "Sister White confessed that in some of her remarks at that meeting she had been in error and had manifested a wrong spirit." This report also is wholly without foundation. I could not forbear giving to the Conference the light that God had given me. This I presented both in messages of warning and reproof and in words of hope and faith. But nothing spoken by me at that meeting has been taken back or confessed to be wrong. I still view matters from the same standpoint, and am of the same mind, as when at Minneapolis. All the dangers which I then saw, and which brought such a burden upon me, have been more clearly developed since that meeting. As I become more fully acquainted with the condition of our churches I see that every warning given at Minneapolis was needed.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/04/11 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
What about the question? Where is the judgment of the living identified in scripture?


Succinctly said, I see that there are various phases of the final pre advent judgement, depending on how much light a definite group of people has and should have heeded (cf. 1 Pet 4:17). There are most times brief indications when a phase begins and/or when it ends. These phases of this judgement in the book of Revelation are as follows:

-Judgement is about to be set up (Rev 8:2-6 = (in its Historical fulfillment Dan 7:10-12ff)

-Judgement on pointedly Church Leaders (Rev 11:1-13a = EGW’s Whirlwind Vision)

-Some survive the Judgement (Rev 13:b cf. Rev 14:7)

-Following the development of Final Events (Rev 12-15:4a; -including Rev 14:14-15:4 which are a not necessarily, due to the symbolism not done by Jesus Himself (Rev 14:2 - “one like unto a son of man”) nor literally in heaven (Rev 15:1-4 - “sea of glass), but reflect actions and states that can and will occur on earth before the Second Coming by the 144,000 and great multitude); it is said that: ‘all will fear God and glorify his name (=Rev 14:7) because His righteous acts (i.e., from just judgements) have been revealed.’ (vs. 4) And then immediately follows the 7 Last Plagues starting with the second apartment of the Sanctuary being said to be opened (vs. 5 = again (Rev 11:19).
This is now done due to the completed judgement on the rest of the (non-SDA) world, by now all at least professed/nominal Christians, (= ‘the Gentiles in the outer court’ - Rev 11:2 = Luke 21:24). Rev 15:8 indicates this ending of ministration in the Sanctuary unto the end when God’s glory fills the temple (= signals the utter end of all of these judgement processes). And the 7 Last Plagues are indeed said/understood to be acts of judgement by God, thus the execution of judgements (see Rev 16:5-7; cf. 9b).

So in summary, the judgement on the living is not a concise and single event, but is subdivided into different sessions depending on the particular ‘lighted group’ people were/are in.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/04/11 11:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
What is your opinion of her study?


I agree with the quotes MM. But where in scripture is the judgment of the living? Do you think it's in scripture?

NJK quotes three places that he applies to different groups at different times.

What about the rest of you. Please, don't be shy.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/05/11 01:24 AM

It is Theologically significant, and must be emphasized, that the angels who are dispatched to effectuate the 7 Last Plague judgements, come out of the Temple/Sanctuary, where the Second Apartment, Investigative judgement/judgement of the Living had been taking place. (Rev 15:5, 6)
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/05/11 01:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
M: What is your opinion of her study?

MS: I agree with the quotes MM. But where in scripture is the judgment of the living? Do you think it's in scripture?

I take it you don't think she substantiated the judgment of the living from the Bible. I think she did a very good job of it in the Great Controversy. What do you think about the Bible passages she quoted - Do they prove the judgment of the living?
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/05/11 08:22 PM

MM, I'm asking for your opinion. smile Daniel 8:14 establishes the Investigative Judgment. But do You think there are any passages in scripture that describe the judgment of the living?
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/06/11 02:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
MM, I'm asking for your opinion. smile Daniel 8:14 establishes the Investigative Judgment. But do You think there are any passages in scripture that describe the judgment of the living?


Hi Mark, there are several ways of showing this from the Bible, beyond the central description in Daniel 7.

One is the core passage in Leviticus 23:27-30, about afflicting one's soul in the leadup to the Day of Atonement. The people were being judged during this time, and those who didn't take the process seriously were cut off.

Another is the measuring-the-temple passages (Ezekiel 40, Zechariah 2, Revelation 11).

A third approach, one that I believe is quite central, is the whole sealing angle.

If we compare some of the key passages in the latter part of the Old Testament with what EGW says, what we find is a model of progressive sealing, with at least the following stages: (a) new believers are sealed, (b) people are sealed before the shaking, (c) people are sealed just after the shaking, (d) people are sealed after the Sunday law test just before the great time of trouble.

This model dovetails with what we find in Ezekiel, for example Ezekiel's commissioning (3:1-11), the sighing/crying/marking passage (9:4-6), the casting of the coals of fire (10:2), God's glory leaving the temple (11:23), and so on.

We know that the sealing depicted by Ezekiel is the same as the one found in Revelation 7. We also know that the sealing is intimately connected with character perfection; see the latter part of the 5T 207-216 chapter.

One of the key points in the process of sealing is that God can use people before they have reached perfection, and when He does use them, their experiences feed back into their own further character development.

In my experience, we tend to use the term "sealing" rather loosely, instead of tying down just what stage of sealing we're talking about.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/06/11 06:30 PM

Mark, I base my opinion on Ellen's explanation of the investigative judgment of the dead and of the living. I don't trust my ability to arrive at truth without the supernatural aid and guidance of the SOP.
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/06/11 06:31 PM

Glen, I agree with your insights. Thank you for sharing. I look forward to learning more from you.
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/06/11 09:16 PM

I used to puzzle a lot over the sequencing of end-time events, including the judgment of the living. I was especially troubled by the various uses of the "sealing" idea. They seemed to conflict with each other.

I gradually realized that sealing means a variety of things, and that a sealing sequence is defined in the Bible and EGW. It may be helpful to look at the sequence a bit, and then apply it. I will include some of the core Bible/EGW references.

1. New believers are sealed (2 Corinthians 1:22).

2. There is a sealing before the shaking (4BC 1161). The basic idea here seems to be one of being rooted in spiritual things. In Bible terms, one illustration of this idea is found in the commissioning of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel (Isaiah 6, Jeremiah 1, Ezekiel 3). These men needed to be on board in a basic way to be useful to God.

3. If you look at the bottom of EW 270, EGW says that just after the shaking, there is a group of people clothed with armor from their head to their feet, and they move in exact order. This also seems to be a sealing. The Bible parallel of this might be some of the stories in the latter part of the Old Testament, where groups of God's people are working together in the face of stiff opposition. Daniel's friends and Zechariah / Joshua / Zerubbabel are examples of this.

4. The fourth stage of sealing is exemplified on 7BC 976, where EGW says that God's people must go through the Sunday law test before being sealed. This appears to occur just before the general close of probation and the great time of trouble. The Bible parallel may again be individuals who are brought to the ultimate test, where they are facing death if they refuse to go along with false worship or some other tyranny. Esther is an example.

I consider both the sealing and the judgment of the living to be best understood primarily as ongoing processes rather than discrete events. I'm not sure it's meaningful to say that a person's name comes up at a fixed moment like July 29 2017, without any regard for what has happened before or after.

As best I can tell, the judgment of the living corresponds to the latter stages of sealing. I would put the sealing of Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 7 at around the third stage described above.

If we look at EW 271, it talks about how those clothed with the armor go out and proclaim the truth with great power. EGW says that this is the latter rain, and presumably the start of the loud cry.

The overall model of sealing, and of the judgment of the living, seems to be one where God sets apart certain people, who are basically rooted in Him, and asks them to work for Him, and uses their experiences to further refine them and purify them and draw them ever closer to Him. Some people drop off along the way.

This model is illustrated in passages like 1T 187 and 5T 216.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/07/11 04:25 AM

Good food for thought, very good. I gather you think the measuring/two witnesses fit in the third stage more or less. Is that right?
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/07/11 05:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Good food for thought, very good. I gather you think the measuring/two witnesses fit in the third stage more or less. Is that right?


Yes, I would say so.

Revelation 11 is a tough nut to crack. I am familiar with its application to the French Revolution, and also familiar with what EGW says about applying it to things yet to happen in the cities (21MR 91), and how the temple is being measured even today (7BC 972).

Also, if one looks at the obvious cross references for 11:3-6, they appear to be the stories of Moses and Elijah, and both these men point to the end-time remnant and 144,000 (Malachi 4:4-6).

If I had to make a wild guess based on the data, I would say that Revelation 11 applies twice. The first time is in the abstract or symbolic form, where the witnesses are the Old/New Testaments and the "city" is atheism or humanism. The second time is yet future, and concrete, and the two witnesses are real people going into real cities and taking it on the chin.

This fits in with a "recapitulation" model that we already know to be generally true. In other words, it's possible to show that there was an abomination of desolation in Christ's time (AD 70), an abomination of desolation during the Dark Ages (538-1798), and another one yet future (5T 464).

There's an interesting EGW quote about the witnessing of the 144,000 at the end of time:

Quote:
Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition, and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God, that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory. They were ever keeping in view the great and blessed hope that is before them. What is it? It is an eternal weight of glory. Nothing could surpass it. {1SAT 72.3}
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/07/11 02:29 PM

That's my understanding.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/07/11 02:55 PM

If and when you're able, I'd be grateful if you'd explain more about the sealing because it does link directly to this topic IMO.
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/07/11 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If and when you're able, I'd be grateful if you'd explain more about the sealing because it does link directly to this topic IMO.


There's a couple of ways of further considering what sealing is. One approach is to look at an example, and another to consider the theology (next post).

Let's look at the life of Elijah, relative to the sealing process.

1. We know that during Elijah's initial public ministry, he had sufficient courage to appear before Ahab, and enough faith to be able to heal the widow's son (1 Kings 17). These actions suggest that Elijah was basically rooted in his walk with God.

2. We know also that Elijah was deeply concerned about Israel's spiritual decline (PK 119). In terms of how Ezekiel says it, Elijah was "sighing and crying" (Ezekiel 9:4). By contrast, some of the leaders of Israel in Ezekiel's time were sun worshippers (Ezekiel 8:16).

Now, being rooted in a basic way, and sighing and crying, may not seem like much, but they are necessary preconditions to being used of God. Note for example this quote:

Quote:
The class who do not feel grieved over their own spiritual declension, nor mourn over the sins of others, will be left without the seal of God. {5T 211.1}


3. During the 3 1/2 years before the showdown on Carmel, Elijah went through a period of intense shaking. For example, we know that his own country hunted him like a wild animal (EW 162).

4. Elijah learned to depend ever more deeply on God during this time, and such dependence was responsible for the great triumph on Carmel.

5. However, Elijah's world fell apart just after this, and he fled from Jezebel. He had learned a lot, but still lacked total dependence on God (1 Kings 19, PK 167).

6. At a later time, when Elijah was being prepared for translation, God moved him around, so that he wouldn't settle down and get comfortable (GW 269).

In this example, I think we can define the sealing process in terms of (a) choosing God's way instead of the world, and (b) learning to depend ever more deeply on God over time.
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/07/11 11:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If and when you're able, I'd be grateful if you'd explain more about the sealing because it does link directly to this topic IMO.


What about the theology of sealing?

The way I would define it is this: The sealing process consists of us learning to depend on and cooperate with Christ our great High Priest as He cleanses us from all sin.

Such a definition implies that the sealing process is deeply intertwined with the sanctuary doctrine.

There are a couple of EGW quotes that talk about sealing in relation to the antitypical Day of Atonement. For example:

Quote:
Those that overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God. Those whose hands are not clean, whose hearts are not pure, will not have the seal of the living God. Those who are planning sin and acting it will be passed by. Only those who, in their attitude before God, are filling the position of those who are repenting and confessing their sins in the great anti-typical day of atonement, will be recognized and marked as worthy of God's protection. The names of those who are steadfastly looking and waiting and watching for the appearing of their Saviour--more earnestly and wishfully than they who wait for the morning--will be numbered with those who are sealed. Those who, while having all the light of truth flashing upon their souls, should have works corresponding to their avowed faith, but are allured by sin, setting up idols in their hearts, corrupting their souls before God, and polluting those who unite with them in sin, will have their names blotted out of the book of life, and be left in midnight darkness, having no oil in their vessels with their lamps. "Unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings." {TM 445.1}


Our cooperation and dependence on Christ are not automatic things. We may simply choose to not cooperate, and hold on to some of our cherished sins. Or we may try to do it all ourselves, or go to the other extreme and assume that Christ will magically change us while we passively stand by.

There's another quote that touches on some of these points:

Quote:
What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation? Those who are uniting with the world are receiving the worldly mold and preparing for the mark of the beast. Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}

Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God--candidates for heaven. Go forward, my brethren and sisters. I can only write briefly upon these points at this time, merely calling your attention to the necessity of preparation. Search the Scriptures for yourselves, that you may understand the fearful solemnity of the present hour. {5T 216.2}


There's a final quote that links together sealing in a spiritual context with sealing as physical protection:

Quote:
I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully. {EW 71.1}


I believe that the judgment of the living occurs during the final stages of sealing, and is an evaluation of whether a person has learned to cooperate with and trust in Christ.

Not everyone passes the test. For example, EGW talks various places about people who recant (GC 608), and those who once believed but end up worshipping at the saints' feet (WLF 12).
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/08/11 05:11 PM

Originally Posted By: glenm
There's a couple of ways of further considering what sealing is. One approach is to look at an example. . .


Any comments on Moses' example? David's? Since he respresents the Branch?

Also what's your view of the relationship between the 'measuring' and the sealing?
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/08/11 10:47 PM

Quote:
Any comments on Moses' example? David's? Since he respresents the Branch?


Are you asking why Elijah was translated, but not Moses and David? This is a challenging question. Here are a couple of perspectives.

1. Translation is not the only way to heaven. For example, in the last generation, I am aware of the following groups:

(a) martyrs

(b) those laid to rest

(c) 144,000

(d) those who will be as though they had never been

(e) the wicked

Suppose that I am out in the world, and come to God and am converted late in the loud cry period. God knows my heart and whether I am safe to save.

However, that's not the same as saying that I have developed a righteous character and have learned to depend fully on God, such that I can make it through the great time of trouble.

2. In the case of David, one of the issues was that he was Israel's designated leader, and a very public figure. His problem was not just a momentary failure, but something longer term.

It's interesting to consider this quote:

Quote:
I was shown that it was when David was pure, and walking in the counsel of God, that God called him a man after his own heart. When David departed from God, and stained his virtuous character by his crimes, he was no longer a man after God's own heart. God did not in the least degree justify him in his sins, but sent Nathan, his prophet, with dreadful denunciations to David because he had transgressed the commandment of the Lord. God shows his displeasure at David's having a plurality of wives, by visiting him with judgments, and permitting evils to rise up against him from his own house. {1SP 379.1}


It wasn't just the sin with Bathsheba, but other things like polygamy.

3. Moses was also a public figure, who had talked with God face to face (Deuteronomy 34:10). Note what EGW says about this situation:

Quote:
He [Satan] triumphed that he had power to overcome Moses with his temptations, and that he could mar his illustrious character and lead him to the sin of taking to himself glory before the people which belonged to God. {Con 26.1}


Another point here is that Moses was nominally a very spiritually mature man, who would be held to a high standard.

4. What about Elijah? It appears to that he had no official role in Israel, at least until some point after Carmel. He was neither a king nor a priest.

EGW says that by his failure he cut short his lifework (Ed 150). I used to think that his failure eventually became public knowledge, but it's not clear that this was the case.

If you do the chronology, it also appears that Elijah remained on earth for an extended period of time after Carmel, say 15 years.

What I do know is that God wanted to use him further in overthrowing Baal worship, and this wasn't possible:

Quote:
Elijah should have trusted in God, who had warned him when to flee and where to find an asylum from the hatred of Jezebel, secure from the diligent search of Ahab. The Lord had not warned him at this time to flee. He had not waited for the Lord to speak to him. He moved rashly. Had he waited with faith and patience, God would have shielded His servant and would have given him another signal victory in Israel by sending His judgments upon Jezebel. {3T 290.1}


The whole subject of "translation righteousness" is a hard one to tie down.
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/08/11 11:01 PM

Quote:
Also what's your view of the relationship between the 'measuring' and the sealing?


I believe the sealing process involves an evaluation of character, which presumably is the same as "measuring the temple".

There's an EGW quote that talks about judgment and measuring:

Quote:
The grand judgment is taking place, and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshipers thereof. Remember, when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, that God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. {2SAT 53.2}
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/11/11 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By: glenm
EGW says that by his failure he cut short his lifework (Ed 150). I used to think that his failure eventually became public knowledge, but it's not clear that this was the case.

Very interesting. I wasn't aware of that: Not able to completely finish his life work and translated early because of his failure! Quite a lesson isn't it? A failure to trust, even one that appears to have no effect on others still alway has it's consequences.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/11/11 02:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Very interesting. I wasn't aware of that: Not able to completely finish his life work and translated early because of his failure!


I rather see from reading that EGW statement in full in Ed 151.1 that God could no longer work mightily through Elijah because of that “failure of Faith”. So Elisha had to be raised up to continue that work in his place. Like Moses before him, the bar of faith was raised quite high for him given the great working of God through him. Yet, in Divine fairness, the rewards for having done that demanding work, and at a “99%” faithfulness rate, were also correspondingly quite high/great, and God is indeed just and faithful.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Quite a lesson isn't it? A failure to trust, even one that appears to have no effect on others still alway has it's consequences.


The key here, as alway is to ascertain that the message is Biblical. Elijah’s contra-idolatry message clearly was, as corroborated by many statements of God in the Law. That is why the burden of anyone who claims to have a message from God is to make it was transparently Biblically proven as possible. Elijah had done so. Indeed, as stated in this post (Search for “oathmaking”), even his call for no rain was itself also fully Biblical. (See e.g., 1 Kgs 8:35; 2 Chr 7:13, 14; Isa 5:5-7; Jer 3:1-3; cf 14:1-12ff; cf. Zech 14:9ff; 16-19).
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/11/11 10:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Also what's your view of the relationship between the 'measuring' and the sealing?


I have looked into this a little more, and have an additional thought or two.

If you look at the measuring passages in the Bible, it seems like they are mostly corporate rather than individual.

I take the notion of measuring a church to (a) be an evaluation of how that church's beliefs are distinct from others, and true to divine light, and (b) how well that church measures up to its stated beliefs.

Here are a couple of quotes that illustrate these points:

Quote:
His church is to be a temple built after the divine similitude, and the angelic architect has brought his golden measuring rod from heaven, that every stone may be hewed and squared by the divine measurement and polished to shine as an emblem of heaven, radiating in all directions the bright, clear beams of the Sun of Righteousness. The church is to be fed with manna from heaven and to be kept under the sole guardianship of His grace. Clad in complete armor of light and righteousness, she enters upon her final conflict. The dross, the worthless material, will be consumed, and the influence of the truth testifies to the world of its sanctifying, ennobling character... {TM 17.1}


Quote:
In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. If her spiritual experience does not correspond to the advantages that Christ, at infinite cost, has bestowed on her, if the blessings conferred have not qualified her to do the work entrusted to her, on her will be pronounced the sentence: "Found wanting." By the light bestowed, the opportunities given, will she be judged. {8T 247.2}


I think the idea of measuring can apply at any time in history. For example, if you were one of the Waldenses, you would be concerned with whether your church was free from the gross spiritual errors of the day.

In this sense the sealing of Ezekiel 9:4-6 can apply at any time, in that God's people are always being tested to see if they will embrace truth and reject error.

This general application does not preclude a more specific application to the investigative judgment and the end times.
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/11/11 11:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: glenm
EGW says that by his failure he cut short his lifework (Ed 150). I used to think that his failure eventually became public knowledge, but it's not clear that this was the case.

Very interesting. I wasn't aware of that: Not able to completely finish his life work and translated early because of his failure! Quite a lesson isn't it? A failure to trust, even one that appears to have no effect on others still alway has it's consequences.


I have thought about this some more. In the case of Moses and David, one further way of saying why they weren't translated is because they gave occasion for the enemies of God to blaspheme (2 Samuel 12:14).

Elijah's case is quite a bit more elusive.

If you look at the chronology, he still operated as a prophet for some time after Carmel. For example, we know that he outlasted Ahab and Ahaziah, and was the one who called fire down on the groups of fifty soldiers (2 Kings 1).

At an apparently even later point, he wrote a letter to the king of Judah (2 Chronicles 21:12, PK 213).

So in exactly what way was Elijah's work cut short? One thought that occurs to me is that he had a specific weakness -- he was afraid of Jezebel, and would have known about all the prophets that were killed at her instigation.

So perhaps God could not use him in the specific work of overthrowing Jezebel, and Jehu was used instead (2 Kings 9).

In modern terms, there might be a case where a person goes out and does a great work for God, and then collapses when a specific threat is made against him.
Posted By: kland

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/24/11 09:22 PM

Yes, Rev 11 talking about measuring seems to be taking an accounting of things. And while that has been done throughout history, and can end at any time for any individual, the chapter is between the 6th and 7th angels sounding.

It also talks about 42 months which translates to 1260 days. Matching the end time in Daniel 12.

The question becomes, does the judgment end when the 1260 days start, or sometime within it? If not before, probably very shortly after it begins as the beast from the pit will make war against them. They will have made their choices prior to that.

Which means, that since they are prophesying, there is hope some will listen and therefore, for those others, their judgment has not happened. Each will make a conscience and explicit choice.
Posted By: glenm

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/25/11 01:18 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Yes, Rev 11 talking about measuring seems to be taking an accounting of things. And while that has been done throughout history, and can end at any time for any individual, the chapter is between the 6th and 7th angels sounding.

It also talks about 42 months which translates to 1260 days. Matching the end time in Daniel 12.

The question becomes, does the judgment end when the 1260 days start, or sometime within it? If not before, probably very shortly after it begins as the beast from the pit will make war against them. They will have made their choices prior to that.

Which means, that since they are prophesying, there is hope some will listen and therefore, for those others, their judgment has not happened. Each will make a conscience and explicit choice.


Revelation 11:1 seems to be talking both about corporate and individual judgment.

This dovetails with some other lines of evidence in the Bible. The principles seem to be (a) a church can be judged independently from its members, and (b) people are judged based on the light they've had.

If we look at passages like Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 23:38, and Acts 13:46, it seems clear that Israel closed its corporate probation with God at the time of the cross and the stoning of Stephen. It was judged as a corporate entity.

This did not preclude individual Jews from later conversion to Christianity, with Paul as a notable example.

With reference to people being judged based on the light they've had, some verses that make this point include Ezekiel 9:6 and 1 Peter 4:17.

How do we apply these principles to the end time?

Based on what I've seen in EGW, it appears that the SDA Church is judged before the world. I am thinking of quotes like these:

Quote:
Oh, that the people might know the time of their visitation! There are many who have not yet heard the testing truth for this time. There are many with whom the Spirit of God is striving. The time of God's destructive judgments is the time of mercy for those who have had no opportunity to learn what is truth. Tenderly will the Lord look upon them. His heart of mercy is touched; His hand is still stretched out to save, while the door is closed to those who would not enter. {9T 97.2}


Quote:
But I speak not my own words when I say that God's Spirit will pass by those who have had their day of test and opportunity, but who have not distinguished the voice of God or appreciated the movings of His Spirit. Then thousands in the eleventh hour will see and acknowledge the truth. {2SM 16.1}


It appears that the church is judged fairly early in the process, and goes through the shaking time. The net result of this process is a group of fully-committed people who can go out and give the loud cry in the power of the latter rain.

Another aspect of this is what EGW calls the "closing work for the church" (3T 266), which apparently occurs before the loud cry.

The point of all this is that the church and its members need to be on track with God themselves if they're going to proclaim the final warning to the world.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/25/11 03:23 PM

Originally Posted By: glenm
. . .Based on what I've seen in EGW, it appears that the SDA Church is judged before the world. I am thinking of quotes like these. . .

The point of all this is that the church and its members need to be on track with God themselves if they're going to proclaim the final warning to the world.

There are many more passages in scripture and the SOP that warn the church that it is judged first.

For a long time I believed that revival and reformation among Adventists had to come first before the little time of trouble. I see now that that was a dangerous viewpoint and not consistent with prophecy. Historically, persecution has been the means of the revival and purification of the church. Prophetically we're told that the end time church will overcome him, the devil by "the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Rev 12:11,12.

The church is purified and revived during troubled times.

A "short time" is much less than 1260 years. The primary application of this warning is to the end-time church. It's telling us that at the end God's people will overcome when they have rock solid faith that doesn't flinch in the face of death.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/25/11 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The church is purified and revived during troubled times.... The primary application of this warning is to the end-time church. It's telling us that at the end God's people will overcome when they have rock solid faith that doesn't flinch in the face of death.


When you actually understand what is Biblically, Spiritually “fully” involved in the (present day Eschatological) Mark of the Beast, you can easily and tangibly see that SDA will by the vast majority fail this “time of trouble” development (cf. EW 85.2) because they here prefer to trample upon the Sabbatical principles of God in order to “make a living/profit” within their espoused snaringly unbiblical and evil Capitalistic system, for of course, in the present state of world affairs, if one does not go along with the system, then they are automatically bound to suffer economic hardship even unto permitted death. So I clearly do not see this Church and its collective membership taken the due stand for God and His truth in this pivotal end time issue. Indeed borne out of various forms and degrees of covetousness, pointedly in Western Countries, they have fully fallen for this special and targeted ensnaring deception. EW 266.1-268.2.

You all, as usual/type-ical, can, even childishly (=Pharisaically (Acts 7:57 = 7:51; Matt 13:9, 15 = Zec 7:8-14; Jer 5:20-31)), summarily/defaultly wholly ignore this key issue, not even, tellingly enough, being able to Biblically refute it, but that does not make it go away or become a non-(Present)-truth. As EGW says (cf. this post (#134670)):

Originally Posted By: SOP GC 460.1 “A Work of Reform”
The great obstacle both to the acceptance and to the promulgation of truth is the fact that it involves inconvenience and reproach. This is the only argument against the truth which its advocates have never been able to refute. But this does not deter the true followers of Christ. These do not wait for truth to become popular. Being convinced of their duty, they deliberately accept the cross, with the apostle Paul counting that "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;" with one of old, [Moses] "esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt." 2 Corinthians 4:17; Hebrews 11:26.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/25/11 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
A "short time" is much less than 1260 years.


On what Biblical/Hermeneutical basis, according to your apparent literal eschatological time view, do you make this claim. A period of 3.5 literal years seems, relatively, “short” enough to me. This here claim seems quite arbitrary and fanciful to me!??
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/26/11 03:29 AM

NJK, I'm not sure what you're getting at. How if you start a thread on these points that you feel we need to understand - ie, on capitalism etc. If you already have one here can you point me to it.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/26/11 05:10 AM

Quote:
Mark: A "short time" is much less than 1260 years.

NJK: On what Biblical/Hermeneutical basis, according to your apparent literal eschatological time view, do you make this claim. A period of 3.5 literal years seems, relatively, “short” enough to me. This here claim seems quite arbitrary and fanciful to me!??


Just a correction to my prior question here. I had misread you “1260 years” as ‘1260 days’. So that correction on my part cancels my question.
Posted By: NJK Project

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 06/26/11 05:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
NJK, I'm not sure what you're getting at. How if you start a thread on these points that you feel we need to understand - ie, on capitalism etc. If you already have one here can you point me to it.


The thing about this issue of Capitalism being part of the Mark of the Beast is that it is most pervasive and is indeed the reason why the Rev 11 judgement, on the Church Leadership has come to pass, as they have sought to conduct, and/or endorsed the conducting of, God’s work according to those principles. So if I make these statements in other threads, is both as they are substantively applicable to that discussion. Nonetheless I had already started a dedicated thread on this issue entitled: “Is Capitalism Biblical and Should (SDA) Christians Be “Going Along” With It?”, which you have commented in, but have not shown why/how Capitalism is actually Biblical, let alone this issue that it is a present part of the Mark of the Beast. It is an incontrovertible issue in regards to eschatological prophetic interpretations and understandings.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 08/06/11 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

For a long time I believed that revival and reformation among Adventists had to come first before the little time of trouble. I see now that that was a dangerous viewpoint and not consistent with prophecy. Historically, persecution has been the means of the revival and purification of the church. Prophetically we're told that the end time church will overcome him, the devil by "the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Rev 12:11,12.

The church is purified and revived during troubled times.


I suggested above not to look for a large revival in Adventism before the judgment of the living. So what sign(s) should we be looking for for the start of the judgment of the living?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 08/07/11 08:24 PM

It will certainly begin shortly after the MOB is enforced.
Posted By: gordonb1

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 08/08/11 02:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
So what sign(s) should we be looking for for the start of the judgment of the living?


Persecution of individual church members by the Church structure.

______________________
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 08/08/11 04:36 AM

This is what we know about it:

The cases of the righteous dead have been passing in review before God. When that work shall be completed, judgment is to be pronounced upon the living. {1SM 125.1}

The bottles of God's wrath cannot be poured out to destroy the wicked and their works until all the people of God have been judged, and the cases of the living as well as the dead are decided. And even after the saints are sealed with the seal of the living God, His elect will have trials individually. Personal afflictions will come; but the furnace is closely watched by an eye that will not suffer the gold to be consumed. The indelible mark of God is upon them. God can plead that His own name is written there. The Lord has shut them in. Their destination is inscribed--"God, New Jerusalem." They are God's property, His possession. {TM 446.1}
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 08/13/11 03:05 PM

I'm still studying this but I recently learned of a man named J A Hiebert who, several years ago, closely analysed Ellen White's statements on the recovery of the Ark of the Covenant. You can find a PDF copy of his paper/book at littlebookopen.org. He concludes that the recovery of the Ark marks the start of the judgment of the living. His analysis is quite good as far as I can see.

But I'm inclined at this point to think there may be other indicators as well. While the Ark may be a clear sign to Adventists, it would not be so significant to the world. I've been studying Ellen White's statements regarding balls of fire that fall on mansions and commercial buildings. Some take these statements as occurring after the judgment of the living at the close of probation, but it seems to me they occur at the start of the 'little time of trouble'.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 08/20/11 04:54 AM

Bumping this interesting thread.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/01/12 03:31 PM

Will post something here shortly on several passages in Rev pointing to the judgment of the living.
Posted By: Bobryan

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/01/12 05:08 PM

The Judgment of the living is seen in Dan 7 where "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and when the judgment concludes then the persecution of the real living saints ends - so also do the real living saints (as well as the others) inherit the Kingdom at that point according to Dan 7.

So also in Rom 2:13-16 we have the much predicted Dan 7 judgment future to the days of Paul - where again no dividing line is made between the living and the dead.

And in 2Cor 5:10 - no division between judgment of the saints living vs dead.

And in Rev 14:6-7 - no division again - in a pre-advent judgment message proclaimed to all those who dwell on the earth at that time.

So the real question is - where does God point to a time where judgment excludes the sleeping saints and only looks at the living saints "in judgment"?

We know from GC 604-605 that their cases are decided between the NSL and the start of the 7 last plagues. But where do we see that fine grain detail in the Bible?

in Christ,

Bob
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/03/12 01:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Bobryan
So the real question is - where does God point to a time where judgment excludes the sleeping saints and only looks at the living saints "in judgment"? . . .Where do we see that fine grain detail in the Bible?


If you haven't done it yet, you may want to browse the thread.

One passage of Revelation that points to a paradigm shift is Revelation 11. When John, a symbol of the Elijah people/message, is recommissioned his task is to measure the church and it's worshipers. That began in 1844 but the measuring which is described as the work of the two witnesses hasn't fully begun. Peter said judgment of the house of God was underway in his day. But when it turns to the living, I believe God wants us and the world to know that 'the hour of His judgment is come'. Why?

John is told to leave out the outer court, the court of the Gentiles because the Gentile are given leave to trample it. The protective care of God shelters the church while it is being called out of Babylon and is being sealed by the blood on the posts of the sanctuary(See Ezekiel 40-48) This is the judgment hour of the church when God 'suddenly comes to His temple' and 'purifies the sons of Levi' and we all have to be sealed during that time because when the times of the gentiles ends the purification of the church is complete and then the outer court is also cleansed in the destruction of Babylon.

So, the picture of impending judgment is throughout Daniel and Revelation. This is the main reason for my making a reapplication to most of the prophecies - they all point to the final judgment and purification of the church, 'the sons of Levi', and once that's accomplished to the plagues that purge the outer court, Babylon.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/04/12 01:42 PM

Besides Ezekiel's temple vision (Ezek. 40-48) where the prophet measures the temple as John does, the other main parallel passage is the first half of Zechariah. In chapters 3 to 5 we have many of the same symbols as in Rev 11. I'll write more on that later and other judgment imagery in Daniel and Revelation.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/07/12 04:43 PM

Above I made the claim that the books of Revelation and Daniel point especially to the judgment of the living. Here’s a summary of some of the indicators that this is the case:

In Revelation 19:11-20 we have the picture of Christ going forth to battle on a white horse leading the hosts of heaven. We know this is just prior to the close of probation because the battle is between Christ and the beast and false prophet which combined are the entities behind the image beast and Babylon.

Christ and heaven are victorious over the beast:

Quote:
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This battle is pictured over and over again in Revelation and I’ll get to some of the parallels later. But for now keep in mind that the real reason for the battle is the latter rain which enrages the wicked. Those who dislike truth and righteousness are alarmed and aroused at the revival of primitive godliness. But here’s the point – the latter rain and the judgment of the living are inseparable: this is why the first angel can announce with the full authority of heaven that the 'hour of His judgment is come'.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/07/12 05:40 PM

Regarding the parallels, one that caught my attention recently is the picture of Christ on the white horse of Revelation 19 and as high priest ministering among the seven candlesticks/churches in Revelation 1.

Notice the similarities of the description: Christ is clothed in a vesture. His eyes are a flame of fire. A sharp sword proceeds out of his mouth. In Revelation 1 the emphasis of the imagery is the priesthood of Christ. In Revelation 19, it’s His kingship as commander of the host. But the strong similarities in the descriptions of Christ suggest they are contemporaneous.

In the past, the churches have been viewed as historical, stretching from the early church of Ephesus to the end time church of Laodicea. That is a valid application but the primary application of this must be to the end of time when Christ Himself purifies the church. The imagery here is that Christ is the faithful witness to all seven churches which, when combined, make up the remnant. (See Zech 3:9 where the spiritual Israel is described as a single stone with seven facets) He commends their faithfulness where commendation is due and admonishes and reproves where they fall short.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/08/12 12:20 AM

At church today, Beckley WV, during the service the speaker said he viewed the seven churches as applying especially to the time of the latter rain and made the point that as Christ stands among the seven candlesticks all seven are burning together at the same time, indicating they are contemporaries of one another.

That agrees with Zechariah 3:9 and 10 and Revelation 4 and 5 that describe the remnant church as a single stone with seven eyes or facets or lamps:

Quote:
Zec 3:9 For behold, on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven eyes, I will engrave its inscription, declares the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day.
Zec 3:10 In that day, declares the LORD of hosts, every one of you will invite his neighbor to come under his vine and under his fig tree.

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


The seven eyes are sent out into the earth at the same time - during the time when "thrones are set" in heaven and the Ancient of Days presides (Daniel 7:9); when "out of the throne proceeds lightnings and thunderings and voices" (Revelation 4:5); this is a description of what transpires in heaven when "the hour of His judgment is come" and the life-giving latter rain falls on us, the parched earth.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/14/12 06:53 PM

You see where this leads; to the conclusion that 'the hour of His judgment" applies to the judgment of the living: that our commission is to give that message now, but at the latter rain we are to be instrumental in not only announcing that judgment began in 1844 but especially that the time or hour of judgment of mankind is a present reality.

And as I've pointed out above and many times before for the church, judgment begins with the house of God. Today, if we're asleep to that fact and destitute of the oil of the Holy Spirit, our time is up and we will only find out when the latter rain is poured out that we lack the sanctifying influence of the Holy Spirit. Those in the church today who do not believe in the power of Christ to overcome every sin are not sanctified. The battle over whether Christ can save us fully from our sins has been on-going in the church from the days of Cain and Abel. It's raged throughout my lifetime. Christian perfection is not optional. No one will be saved in their sins. The grace of God does not return to Him void.

I'll try to write some thoughts on Daniel 7 in the next week. Have a good Sabbath.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/15/12 01:47 AM

Quote:
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:25


The above text is the first place the 1260 days are mentioned in scripture. The same period is referred to in Daniel 12 and again in Revelation 11 and 13. Regarding Revelation 13 Ellen White says all of it applies to the future:

Quote:
The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. [Rev. 13:4-10 quoted.] This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place [Rev. 13:11, 15-17 quoted] (MS 88, 1897).


Daniel 7 continues:

Quote:
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. Daniel 7:26.


The sequence we have in Daniel 7 is that while the Little Horn speaks blasphemies against God and His people, the court of heaven convenes. This cannot be referring only to 1844 because the Man of Sin had received the mortal wound 46 years earlier in 1798 and was silent. The picture we have here is that while the mouth of the little horn is speaking great words heaven’s court convenes. This portends the transition from the judgment of the dead that began in 1844 to the judgment of the living at the latter rain.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/22/12 02:06 PM

Are there any comments/questions/thoughts?
Posted By: Peter L

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/27/12 12:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Quote:
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:25


The above text is the first place the 1260 days are mentioned in scripture. The same period is referred to in Daniel 12 and again in Revelation 11 and 13. Regarding Revelation 13 Ellen White says all of it applies to the future:

Quote:
The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. [Rev. 13:4-10 quoted.] This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place [Rev. 13:11, 15-17 quoted] (MS 88, 1897).


Daniel 7 continues:

Quote:
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. Daniel 7:26.


The sequence we have in Daniel 7 is that while the Little Horn speaks blasphemies against God and His people, the court of heaven convenes. This cannot be referring only to 1844 because the Man of Sin had received the mortal wound 46 years earlier in 1798 and was silent. The picture we have here is that while the mouth of the little horn is speaking great words heaven’s court convenes. This portends the transition from the judgment of the dead that began in 1844 to the judgment of the living at the latter rain.


Daniel 7:25
(25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/28/12 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Quote:
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:25


The above text is the first place the 1260 days are mentioned in scripture. The same period is referred to in Daniel 12 and again in Revelation 11 and 13. Regarding Revelation 13 Ellen White says all of it applies to the future:

Quote:
The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. [Rev. 13:4-10 quoted.] This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place [Rev. 13:11, 15-17 quoted] (MS 88, 1897).


Daniel 7 continues:

Quote:
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. Daniel 7:26.


The sequence we have in Daniel 7 is that while the Little Horn speaks blasphemies against God and His people, the court of heaven convenes. This cannot be referring only to 1844 because the Man of Sin had received the mortal wound 46 years earlier in 1798 and was silent. The picture we have here is that while the mouth of the little horn is speaking great words heaven’s court convenes. This portends the transition from the judgment of the dead that began in 1844 to the judgment of the living at the latter rain.


Another reason for linking the first angels message the judgment of the living is this statement from EGW:
Quote:
I saw that God had children who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They have not rejected the light upon it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully. This enraged the churches and nominal Adventists, as they could not refute the Sabbath truth. And at this time God's chosen all saw clearly that we had the truth, and they came out and endured the persecution with us. I saw the sword, famine, pestilence, and great confusion in the land. The wicked thought that we had brought the judgments upon them, and they rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed. {EW 33 and 34.}


Notice that it's at the "commencement of the time of [little] time of trouble" that the Holy Spirit empowers the message. Some major event will trouble the world and arrest it's attention. The mighty angel of Revelation 10 along with the angel of Revelation 14 and the angel of Revelation 18 will utter their voices to give the final warning message that the "hour of His judgment is come," interpreting the event(s).

Peter, sorry I'm not clear on what you're saying in your last post.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/29/12 12:04 AM

In the following statement, EGW links the mighty angel of Revelation 10 with a future message that arrests the world's attention. How will the angel demand attention? I'll concede that it could simply be by the power of the Holy Spirit speaking through consecrated men, similar to the great awakening under William Miller; but if we put all of the inspired texts together, it seems more likely that there will be some events that are global in scope that will focus the world's attention our present truth, judgment hour message:
Quote:
The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy had waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But the mighty angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show [future tense] the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth. {7BC 971.3}


This last part of the quote agrees with Daniel 7 where the little horn is judged at the height of it's power during that future time when it again speak blasphemies, uniting with "Satan to oppose the truth".
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/29/12 02:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Notice that it's at the "commencement of the time of [little] time of trouble" that the Holy Spirit empowers the message. Some major event will trouble the world and arrest it's attention. The mighty angel of Revelation 10 along with the angel of Revelation 14 and the angel of Revelation 18 will utter their voices to give the final warning message that the "hour of His judgment is come," interpreting the event(s).


This is exactly right. The major event that will trouble the world is the revealing of Satan as an angel of light, coming as the eighth King of Rev 17, then immediately afterwards is the "angel that cries with a mighty voice' which was originally proclaimed before the great disappointment of 1844. The loud cry of Rev 18 begins by proclaiming that Babylon has become "Inhabited by demons".

Quote; "The saints must get a thorough understanding of present truth, which they will be obliged to maintain from the Scriptures. They must understand the state of the dead, for the spirits of devils will yet appear to them, professing to be beloved friends and relatives, who will declare to them that the Sabbath has been changed, also other unscriptural doctrines.—Early Writings, 87 (1854). {LDE 156.3}

The apostles, as personated by these lying spirits, are made to contradict what they wrote at the dictation of the Holy Spirit when on earth. They deny the divine origin of the Bible.—The Great Controversy, 557 (1911). {LDE 157.1}

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome.—The Great Controversy, 588 (1911). {LDE 157.2}


'But the people of God will not be misled. The teachings of this false christ are not in accordance with the Scriptures. His blessing is pronounced upon the worshipers of the beast and his image, the very class upon whom the Bible declares that God’s unmingled wrath shall be poured out.'—The Great Controversy, 624, 625 (1911). {LDE 157.4}

This is the last great conflict before Jesus comes that will unite the world in error.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/29/12 08:06 AM


So this pope dies... Satan, coming in the form of number six of the previous seven Kings, which would be John Paul II, appears to have been resurrected from the dead. As this is happening other demons impersonate some of the apostles, who lead the Ten Horns on the last phase of the Rome beast recorded in Rev 17 to lend their power to the beast for one hour (two literal weeks). The Spirit of Prophecy states that the ten horns represent the protestant churches in America, so these apostate apostle apparitions lead the protestant churches to unite with the Satanic resurrection of the worlds most beloved pope. This will be quite dramatic.
Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/29/12 08:07 AM

Imagine the movie that could be made on this story line eh?
Posted By: Mountain Man

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/29/12 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

So this pope dies... Satan, coming in the form of number six of the previous seven Kings, which would be John Paul II, appears to have been resurrected from the dead. As this is happening other demons impersonate some of the apostles, who lead the Ten Horns on the last phase of the Rome beast recorded in Rev 17 to lend their power to the beast for one hour (two literal weeks). The Spirit of Prophecy states that the ten horns represent the protestant churches in America, so these apostate apostle apparitions lead the protestant churches to unite with the Satanic resurrection of the worlds most beloved pope. This will be quite dramatic.

James, did Jesus show you in a dream or vision that Satan will impersonate John Paul II after Benedict dies? Also, where in the SOP does Ellen say the "ten horns represent the protestant churches in America"?
Posted By: Peter L

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 01/30/12 02:11 PM

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

So this pope dies... Satan, coming in the form of number six of the previous seven Kings, which would be John Paul II, appears to have been resurrected from the dead. As this is happening other demons impersonate some of the apostles, who lead the Ten Horns on the last phase of the Rome beast recorded in Rev 17 to lend their power to the beast for one hour (two literal weeks). The Spirit of Prophecy states that the ten horns represent the protestant churches in America, so these apostate apostle apparitions lead the protestant churches to unite with the Satanic resurrection of the worlds most beloved pope. This will be quite dramatic.


The problem with the theory of the 7 headed beast in Rev 17 being the Papacy is that the whore is the Papacy and the beast and horns turn on the whore at the end of Rev 17
Posted By: Daryl

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 02/04/12 11:06 PM

From where did this idea originate?

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

So this pope dies... Satan, coming in the form of number six of the previous seven Kings, which would be John Paul II, appears to have been resurrected from the dead. As this is happening other demons impersonate some of the apostles, who lead the Ten Horns on the last phase of the Rome beast recorded in Rev 17 to lend their power to the beast for one hour (two literal weeks). The Spirit of Prophecy states that the ten horns represent the protestant churches in America, so these apostate apostle apparitions lead the protestant churches to unite with the Satanic resurrection of the worlds most beloved pope. This will be quite dramatic.
Posted By: Charity

Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture? - 02/20/12 05:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Peter L
The problem with the theory of the 7 headed beast in Rev 17 being the Papacy is that the whore is the Papacy and the beast and horns turn on the whore at the end of Rev 17


James or anyone, what's your thinking on this. Is the whore the Papacy? Why or why not and what are the implications.

Also, James, I was reading your "Eight King" blog and you state that the judgment of the living began during the reign of John Paul II. Can you say more about that here?
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