Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)?

Elle, as I had asked/posed/requested to/from you in Post #132876, (as it also came to my attention in a recent Doug Batchelor sermon comment against “predestination” [31:49-33:47]):
Since the Bible clearly states that ‘God is not willing that anyone should perish’ (Matt 18:14; 2 Pet 3:9), then why do so many, even the vast majority, do die in clearly unsaved, even either explicitly or implictly ‘God cursing’ states (= John 3:16b’s “not believing”). Indeed God’s many judgements against wicked people cement that “lost death state” fact.

Now, if never before we should see that where there is a type there is also an antitype, and that WHERE THERE IS NO TYPE, THERE IS NO TRUTH. 1TG 46:15

Or in another word, is the Hell fire doctrine Truth? In that doctrine we assumed that the lake of fire is literal? Why shouldn’t it be taken figuratively?

In which way? Are you thinking in terms of people dying the second death but not by fire?

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.

May I make reference to the last line of your quote from Mrs. White which is the essence: While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.

She also says "The Glory of him that is love will destroy the wicked"

the lake of fire is literal and symbolic, but we have made it something that is not what the Pentituch taught. We turn it into lava or what we get when we light a match and have it sepperate from God. This fire is a symbol of the literal, visible pressence of God in person. It is seeing Jesus not veiled by humanity.

Dr. Kenneth Hart from Loma Linda has a wonderful complatation of all he could find of what Mrs. White says about it. It is amazing how much she does have to say and the direction that it goes to.

Also read in Desire of Ages "It is Finished"

Once you start to notice this theam in Mrs. White you find that she is full of allusions towards the view of hell that we find in the Pentituch.

Yes, Sodom and Gomorrah is a type, but we find the other passessages the anti-type. God, God's beauty, God's love, God's glory is the eternal fire.

I understand much of the other to be Mrs. White's use of symbolic writing, maybe even from her sources, for a running natative and the phrases you see as symbolic I understand as her giving what the symbolic language symbolizes.

Now this has been a debate in the church since before we were born. Elder, I think his last name is Fifefield taught this. He was a friend of Mrs. White's and we do not have record of her correcting his error, but her in such as those phrases you see as more symbolic and I see her as explaining the symbolism, she appears to use her ideas. Lynn Harper Wood developed this in the 1920s. Paul Heubech was one of Wood's students and would teach this. Edwin Heppenstall could not decide between the two views. A number of our leading theologians in the 1950s held this view including some who contributed to the SDABC. And even before Adventism, while I have not seen enought to convince me, I've seen evidence and heard people argue that William Tyndal had a similar if not same view of hell fire as Fifefield, Wood, Heubech and others taught. We need to keep studying and be fair to our understanding of the Bible and Mrs. White.

1. The altar of burnt offering links sin, sinners, and hellfire.

2. Unpardoned sinners were led out of the camp with the scapegoat on the day of atonement.

The burnt offering(the daily, and other burnt offerings made with other offerings like sin offerings) represented Jesus… Could you elaborate how you see this linking sin, sinners, and hellfire?


First of all, the red heifer which represented Jesus, was killed and burnt outside the camp. So it was not only the sinners that were sent outside the camp.

Num 19: 2 “:2 This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke: 3 And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face:”

The Scapegoat of Lev 16

Concerning the scapegoat. The Scapegoat is misunderstood. I have posted Doug Goslin study at #Post 124209 here . At first I had misunderstood the meaning of the misunderstood scapegoat and thought that Jesus was Azazel, when according to the Masoretic Text, Jesus was the 2nd goat sent alive FOR Azazel, which I explain this below.

This became clear to me of my misunderstanding when some months ago, I decided to check the Hebrew literal translation of Lev 16:10. Here is what I discovered.

The Literal Hebrew translation of Lev 16:10

Before hand, let me explain in brief that there are two works of Christ to atone for the sins of the world.

1. Justification : accomplish/symbolized by His death
2. Sanctification: accomplish/symbolized by His ressurection and His work in us and His work in destroying the works of the Devil.

The death and resurection of Jesus depicts this two works. This works was reveal in the TYPE with the 2 doves ritual(one dead, the other alive).(Lev 14) The same is depicted in the TYPE with the 2 goats ritual(one dead, the other alive) (Lev. 16).

First of all you have to acknowledge that these two goats were both without blemish for the lot could of fell on either. Right there one of these goats couldn't represent Lucifer, for he is filled with blemish. Both of these animals were without blemish because both represented Christ and His two works to atone for the world.

Lev 16:10 "But the goat, on which the lot fell [to be the] (for) scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go [for a ] (to) scapegoat into the wilderness. "

Notice what I have put in bracket and highlight in red the inaccuracy of the translation. What is in parenthese and in green is what the litteral translation in the original text would say. Do look at the masoretic text with strong code available at www. scripture4all.org. I have their free software download on my computer, which is more detail than the one online. So I'm referring to their software.

Basically the translation error(& bias) is that the second goat was for Azazel and not to be Azazel.

Let me paraphrase from the literal text by only giving the literal translation provided by this software where I will supply the strong codes with it. Please go check the Masoretic text yourself at Scripture4All Link if you really want to be objective about this and know the truth about God's plan of salvation.

Lev 16:10 "But the goat, on which the lot fell over-him (5921) for-goat-of-departure (5799) shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him and to-send-away-of[/i] (7971) him (853) to-goat-of-departure (5799) the-wilderness-ward (4057)"

Above is the literal translation of the Hebrew are in bold and italic font. As you can see the goat that the lot fell on was FOR the scapegoat. It was not the scapegoat itself. And in the later half of the text, that goat (that the lot fell on) was sent away TO the scapegoat in the wilderness.

This was fufilled when Jesus was baptised(=death of 1st goat for the Lord) and then the Holy Spirit(the fit man) led him(live 2nd goat for Azazel) in the wilderness to be tempted by Satan(Azazel).

I'm bumping this in case this got burried and you haven't read my reply to you MM.

Limiting types to only the law of Moses is, as confirmed by exegesis, not accurate as even God’s dealings with, and the experiences of, Israel recorded in those books, as well as the rest of the OT, even NT with NT Israel, serves as types and examples (e.g., Early Rain, 70 A.D. destruction). E.g, 1 Cor 10:11 (“example” Greek typikos #5917a; cf. the uses of #5917b hyptypikos in e.g., 1 Cor 10:6; Rom 5:14; 1 Thess 1:7; 2 Thess 3:9; 1 Tim 4:12; Tit 2:7; 1 Pet 5:3).

(1) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, (2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; (3) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and [/u]keep his commandments[/u], and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

MM, I would appreciate a respond if you can. I'm bumping this in case this got burried and you haven't read my reply to you MM:

M: The altar of burnt offering links sin, sinners, and hellfire.

E: The burnt offering(the daily, and other burnt offerings made with other offerings like sin offerings) represented Jesus… Could you elaborate how you see this linking sin, sinners, and hellfire?

M: Unpardoned sinners were led out of the camp with the scapegoat on the day of atonement.

E: First of all, the red heifer which represented Jesus, was killed and burnt outside the camp. So it was not only the sinners that were sent outside the camp.

Num 19: 2 “:2 This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke: 3 And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face:”

The Scapegoat of Lev 16

Concerning the scapegoat. The Scapegoat is misunderstood. I have posted Doug Goslin study at #Post 124209 here . At first I had misunderstood the meaning of the misunderstood scapegoat and thought that Jesus was Azazel, when according to the Masoretic Text, Jesus was the 2nd goat sent alive FOR Azazel, which I explain this below.

This became clear to me of my misunderstanding when some months ago, I decided to check the Hebrew literal translation of Lev 16:10. Here is what I discovered.

The Literal Hebrew translation of Lev 16:10

Before hand, let me explain in brief that there are two works of Christ to atone for the sins of the world.

1. Justification : accomplish/symbolized by His death
2. Sanctification: accomplish/symbolized by His ressurection and His work in us and His work in destroying the works of the Devil.

The death and resurection of Jesus depicts this two works. This works was reveal in the TYPE with the 2 doves ritual(one dead, the other alive).(Lev 14) The same is depicted in the TYPE with the 2 goats ritual(one dead, the other alive) (Lev. 16).

First of all you have to acknowledge that these two goats were both without blemish for the lot could of fell on either. Right there one of these goats couldn't represent Lucifer, for he is filled with blemish. Both of these animals were without blemish because both represented Christ and His two works to atone for the world.

Lev 16:10 "But the goat, on which the lot fell [to be the] (for) scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go [for a ] (to) scapegoat into the wilderness. "

Notice what I have put in bracket and highlight in red the inaccuracy of the translation. What is in parenthese and in green is what the litteral translation in the original text would say. Do look at the masoretic text with strong code available at www. scripture4all.org. I have their free software download on my computer, which is more detail than the one online. So I'm referring to their software.

Basically the translation error(& bias) is that the second goat was for Azazel and not to be Azazel.

Let me paraphrase from the literal text by only giving the literal translation provided by this software where I will supply the strong codes with it. Please go check the Masoretic text yourself at Scripture4All Link if you really want to be objective about this and know the truth about God's plan of salvation.

Lev 16:10 "But the goat, on which the lot fell over-him (5921) for-goat-of-departure (5799) shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him and to-send-away-of[/i] (7971) him (853) to-goat-of-departure (5799) the-wilderness-ward (4057)"

Above is the literal translation of the Hebrew are in bold and italic font. As you can see the goat that the lot fell on was FOR the scapegoat. It was not the scapegoat itself. And in the later half of the text, that goat (that the lot fell on) was sent away TO the scapegoat in the wilderness.

This was fufilled when Jesus was baptised(=death of 1st goat for the Lord) and then the Holy Spirit(the fit man) led him(live 2nd goat for Azazel) in the wilderness to be tempted by Satan(Azazel).

The children of Israel were anciently commanded to make an offering for the entire congregation, to purify them from ceremonial defilement. For the sacrifice a red heifer was offered, representing the more perfect offering that should redeem from the pollution of sin. This was an occasional sacrifice for the purification of all those who had necessarily or accidentally touched the dead. All who came in contact with death in any way were considered ceremonially unclean. Thus the minds of the Hebrews were forcibly impressed with the fact that death came in consequence of sin, and therefore is a representative of sin. The one heifer, the one ark, the one brazen serpent, impressively point to the one great offering, the sacrifice of Christ. {RH, January 9, 1883 par. 2}

This heifer was to be red without spot, which was a symbol of blood. It must be without blemish, and one that had never borne a yoke. Here again Christ was typified. The Son of God came voluntarily to accomplish the work of atonement. There was no obligatory yoke upon him, for he was independent and above all law. The angels, as God's intelligent messengers, were under the yoke of obligation; no personal sacrifice of theirs could atone for the guilt of fallen man. Christ alone was free from the claims of the law to undertake the redemption of the sinful race. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again. "Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." {RH, January 9, 1883 par. 3}

Yet this glorious being loved the poor sinner, and took upon himself the form of a servant, that he might suffer and die in man's behalf. Jesus might have remained at his Father's right hand, wearing his kingly crown and royal robes. But he chose to exchange all the riches, honor, and glory of Heaven for the poverty of humanity, and his station of high command for the horrors of Gethsemane and the humiliation and agony of Calvary. He became a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, that, by his baptism of suffering and blood, he might purify and redeem a guilty world. "Lo, I come," was the joyful assent, "to do thy will O God!" {RH, January 9, 1883 par. 4}

The sacrificial heifer was conducted without the camp, and slain in the most solemn manner. Thus Christ suffered without the gates of Jerusalem, for Calvary was outside the city walls. This was to show that Christ did not die for the Hebrews alone, but for all mankind. He proclaims to a fallen world that he has come to be their Redeemer, and urges them to accept the salvation which he offers. {RH, January 9, 1883 par. 5}

The heifer having been slain, the priest, clothed in pure white garments, took the blood in his hands as it issued from the body of the victim, and cast it toward the temple seven times. Thus Christ in his own spotless righteousness, after shedding his precious blood, entered into the heavenly sanctuary to minister in the sinner's behalf. And there the crimson current is brought into the service of reconciling God to man. "And having a high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." {RH, January 9, 1883 par. 6}

The body of the heifer was burned to ashes, which signified a whole and ample sacrifice. The ashes were then gathered up by a person uncontaminated by contact with the dead, and laid up in a clean place without the camp. When the ceremony of cleansing was to be performed, these were placed in a vessel containing water from a running stream. This clean and pure person then took a cedar stick with scarlet cloth and a bunch of hyssop and sprinkled the contents of the vessel upon the tent and the persons therein. This ceremony was repeated several times in order to be thorough, and was done as a purification from sin. {RH, January 9, 1883 par. 7}

Once a year, on the great Day of Atonement, the priest entered the most holy place for the cleansing of the sanctuary. The work there performed completed the yearly round of ministration. On the Day of Atonement two kids of the goats were brought to the door of the tabernacle, and lots were cast upon them, "one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat." Verse 8. The goat upon which fell the lot for the Lord was to be slain as a sin offering for the people. And the priest was to bring his blood within the veil and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. The blood was also to be sprinkled upon the altar of incense that was before the veil. {GC 419.1}

"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited." Verses 21, 22. The scapegoat came no more into the camp of Israel, and the man who led him away was required to wash himself and his clothing with water before returning to the camp. {GC 419.2}

Important truths concerning the atonement are taught by the typical service. A substitute was accepted in the sinner's stead; but the sin was not canceled by the blood of the victim. A means was thus provided by which it was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people. {GC 420.1}

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. {GC 422.2}

In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil. {GC 485.3}

Now the event takes place foreshadowed in the last solemn service of the Day of Atonement. When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, then the scapegoat was presented alive before the Lord; and in the presence of the congregation the high priest confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat." Leviticus 16:21. In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. {GC 658.1}

Yes, it represents Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

Now, if never before we should see that where there is a type there is also an antitype, and that WHERE THERE IS NO TYPE, THERE IS NO TRUTH. 1TG 46:15

Perhaps Elle, my post on The Sacrifice of Christ may be helpful here.

My view on this issue is, on top of Christ enduring a tremendous battle of the will, indeed from Gethsemane, He was suffering the physical and also mental anguish of the Hell Judgement that God will make all of the wicked suffer by supernaturally keeping them alive in the fires of Hell for an individually set time. The “Second Death” is actually a drawn out death, however the end result is “normative” death, with no notion/knowledge/feeling of anything then.

We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {1MR 131.1}

Please, can someone tell me where this is found in the writings of EGW? I found it in a sermon by a Davidian SDA minister, but it was his words, not EGW's. "1TG" = Vol. 1, Timely Greetings. Not an EGW publication. See: http://www.shepherds-rod-message.org/1tg/1tg47.html

What am I missing???

"This line "Now, if never before we should see that where there is a type there is also an antitype, and that WHERE THERE IS NO TYPE, THERE IS NO TRUTH. 1TG 46:15" is quoted from the Timely Greetings{TG} volume 1.. Timely greetings are one of the messages of the mighty angel that unite his voice with the third..".

I can understandly see how you were brought to that wrong assumption Elle. It can and has happened to most people. (Case in point, the widely claimed SDA assumption that the Library of Congress itself had said the Desire of Ages was its best book on the life of Christ - see here).

How, now, does that correction affect your foundational view here of: ‘Law of Moses types being a requirement for all doctrines’?

God gaved to mankind ONE TYPE and there’s no other, and it is found in the Pentateuch.

I agree with EGW when she said, if there’s no TYPE there’s no truth. So the the TYPE is given to us so we can know the Truth.

Question : Do we have a TYPE in the Law of Moses to backup what we currently assume in regards to “the vast majority to die”? Or in another word, is the Hell fire doctrine Truth? In that doctrine we assumed that the lake of fire is literal? Why shouldn’t it be taken figuratively?

Let’s exercise to search from the foundation where God gave us His truth.

My question actually was “how...”, not ‘does...?’ So it does not affect your view either way??! That does not seem to be exegetically responsible, nor logically sequitur, to me, especially given your topic opening statement which I saw was only theologically plausible because of that assumed EGW statement (it was further odd to me that you were actually quoting the SOP in support)

Tx for your reply Mike. I’m glad you brought it up because I think you brought a very important starting point. Can we all establish some quick common knowledge first about Jesus sacrifice/death on the cross before we move on to the other points you brought up.

1. Jesus sacrifice & death on the Cross

a. Jesus sacrifice was “ the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.” 1Jo 2:2 Do you agree that Christ died for ours and the sins of the whole world?

b. What death did Jesus died on the cross? 1st or 2nd?

c. When we repent we die to sin, and get baptized into his death(Rm 6:3). Then what death do we die when we get baptist? 1st or 2nd?

d. Since Christ didn’t physically burn on the cross, nor did we when we died into Christ death, then could you explain where is the fire?

How does it effect my view? ---> absolutly has no effect for it was not my foundation....

The Bible is what the Lord has given us and Is sufficient.

This generation and most of all the generations since God spoke at Mt Sinai the Laws to Moses, men has depended on man to tell them what God had said. That’s the biggest flaw with the Israelites even when Moses himself was the man chosen.

There are special blessings to dig for yourself in scriptures and learn to hear God speak to you personally. This is what binds your soul to the Lord – hearing God for yourself. This is what 1Jn 2:27 says ” But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. This is what people are being robbed from when they depend on second hand teachings.

Just the fact that it is call LAWs-- it is proof that it is the foundation. And it’s not only the laws that is pronounced at the foot of Sinai or given on the mountain top. The laws are written everywhere in the 5 books of Moses including Genesis. Paul says that the Law(Law of Moses) is Spiritual and we all know that it is prophetic. It is our duty to come to know their spiritual and prophetic meanings so to come to know God's mind and heart in regards to the plan of salvation and how He rules and subdue people in His Kingdom that is soon coming.

Now concerning the Laws of Moses to be the foundation of all truth. It always been. I have already provided a short study of it in Post #135199 . There’s much more plus the test of a prophet which is based on the law. What other law is there beside what is given to Moses which we all call “The Laws of Moses”. These are proven LAWS, approved and supported by Jesus Himself, and not mere theories or speeches of prophets that needs to be tested against the Law and views are limited and is spoken to via dark speeches.

Even Jesus used the Law of Moses to teach the disciples for 40 days. He also used the writings of the prophets which are prophetic application of the Law and are not the law itself.

Knowing the Laws of Moses is the most essential foundation we need first before trying to understand the Prophets or other writings.

We have neglected that study for we have been taught that these laws are nailed to the cross and is not relevant to us today.

Jesus nor any sacrificial animals (all representing Jesus) were burn alive -- They were all SACRIFICED beforehand. There's just two people(if my memory is correct) in the OT that were burned, and both these instances they were stoned prior to being burned.

Stoning was how people in the OT were put to death. No one ever were killed alive in a fire.

So our challenge here is
(1) to understand the spiritual meaning of stoning
(2) and the meaning of fire in the sacrifices and elsewhere

Elle : The Bible is what the Lord has given us and Is sufficient.

NJK : My view is that God has also given us the writings of EGW and when her statements are not direct revelations, which I see as being on par with the Bible’s own direct revelation (i.e., ‘thus says the Lord’ and prophecies) then EGW’s writings have to first be thoroughly exegetically tested to see if they are accurate.

Elle : Just the fact that it is call LAWs-- it is proof that it is the foundation. And it’s not only the laws that is pronounced at the foot of Sinai or given on the mountain top. The laws are written everywhere in the 5 books of Moses including Genesis. Paul says that the Law(Law of Moses) is Spiritual and we all know that it is prophetic. It is our duty to come to know their spiritual and prophetic meanings so to come to know God's mind and heart in regards to the plan of salvation and how He rules and subdue people in His Kingdom that is soon coming.

NJK : From what I understand, these first 5 books were generally called the law of Moses for short, but the “Law” only applied to Laws found in the majority in these books, e.g., major parts of Exodus; a little portion of Numbers, most, if not all of Leviticus and parts of Deuteronomy. The books of Genesis and Job are merely Historical, though as the first of Biblical Histories, they have a significant foundational aspect, but not necessarily a Law.

Elle : Now concerning the Laws of Moses to be the foundation of all truth. It always been. I have already provided a short study of it in Post #135199 . There’s much more plus the test of a prophet which is based on the law. What other law is there beside what is given to Moses which we all call “The Laws of Moses”. These are proven LAWS, approved and supported by Jesus Himself, and not mere theories or speeches of prophets that needs to be tested against the Law and views are limited and is spoken to via dark speeches.

NJK : As seen in my response in Post #135208 I did not find your exposition in Post 135199 to be actually exegetically convincing. To me any experience is to be tested against the Law and the Testimonies, and Moses was the first benchmark of both. So, in regards to the Testimonies, any other prophet who passes these tests, can then be used to measure future experiences against. E.g. the physical experiences of the Prophet Daniel served to validate the prophetic experience of EGW.

Elle : Even Jesus used the Law of Moses to teach the disciples for 40 days. He also used the writings of the prophets which are prophetic application of the Law and are not the law itself.

NJK : Where does the Bible say/reveal this??

Elle : Knowing the Laws of Moses is the most essential foundation we need first before trying to understand the Prophets or other writings.

NJK : I see that this Law understanding has been done in many ways through other subsequent prophets in the Bible, including Jesus. (E.g., Matt 5-7). So I do not see a need to dichotomize the Bible, but to study all of it when trying to understand a doctrine. Indeed it has been my experience that when I first understand the more clear prophetic revelations and explanations in the Bible beyond the books of Moses, I can then more readily understand what a Law had meant. Case in point, when I first understood the teaching of Hell in the Bible and SOP, I was then able to see how it was also incorporated in the Sanctuary Service of Israel. This “whole” and less Theologically remote approach is better for me in Bible Study.

Elle : God's judgments that He showed us in the Law of Moses are Righteous Judgments based on Mercy which restore the offender by making him pay restitution to the victim.

The punitive Judgment of this WORLD and in the anihilation doctrine does not (1)restore the offender nor does it (2)bring restitution to the victim. Therefore Justice is not served.

geoffm : Justice not served? The wages of sin is death.
I can accept Christs death for me and live and justice is served.
If I do not accept Christs death for me, then I have to pay the wages of sin, death myself. In both cases justice is served.

Doesn't anyone read, really read and understand, everyone's favorite text? John 3:16. There is a hugh IF in there.

The law makes justice the first priority with the purpose (1) to correct the sinner

What happens when the sinner is an incorrigible one?

I am afraid you aren't reading what I am reading. "Whosoever believeth" means IF you believe. IF you don't believe, you don't get life everlasting.

???? You do not believe in God’s power and His abilities in bringing “ all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. ” 1 Tim 2:4

As He has vowed in AV Isa 45:23 “ I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear…25 ... all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory ”. This vow God has made is a promise of what He will Accomplish . It is not dependable on our abilities or what we will do, but on God’s abilities and what He will do and He will bring us all into glorification as He has vowed.

To say what you said above implies the following :
(1)God is not capable to fulfill His vow
(2)Thus God is a liar
(3)God’s love has no power to influence us and convert us.
(4)God did a lousy job in creating us for His design is not capable to respond to God’s love.

God is able, is not a liar, His love has power and what He has created is able to respond to Him. No problem there. The real problem is we are finite beings and have come to wrong interpretations of the Bible because we do not understand the LAW. Let’s look what the law says first and try to see where and what we have mist out.

1) There was the death penalty in the law of Moses for incorrigible sinners.

2) God's love respects our free will. Satan and His angels are incorrigible sinners; why isn't God able to save them? Jesus said in no unclear terms that there would be those to whom He would have to say: "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Elle,

I am not certain what you are saying in your posts.

Are you saying that everybody will be saved and that nobody will be lost?

a) Why does some law's verdict a define restitution, whereas some others laws the verdict is stoning to death? Isn’t only breaking one little law, the same as breaking all of them? James 2:10

b)The letter of the law says “stoning” to death which is important for us to know. However, we need to go beyond the literal surface reading and seek to also know the spirit of the law which is God’s intent and perspective.

Freewill is another man-made mis-conception that is not biblical and I have expanded quite broadly in this discussion . Concerning Mat 25:41 to properly understand what Jesus is talking about there’s two words that needs to be biblically define :

a) fire—could be the same as in the lake of fire and
b) everlasting (eonian in NT and Olam in OT).

Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed the cross. This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16, 19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ's sacrifice. When He died, this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." Psalm 111:7,8.
There are two laws that are made crystal clear in the following verses below. Daniel 9:10 is talking about God's law and verse 11 is talking about Moses' law:

Daniel 9:10 We did not listen to you, O LORD our God, when you told us to live according to the laws which you gave us through your servants the prophets.
11 All Israel broke your laws and refused to listen to what you said. We sinned against you, and so you brought on us the curses that are written in the Law of Moses, your servant.

Time for me to answer my own latest questions.

It was and remains my understanding that the Law of Moses ended at Calvary, therefore, God's Justice isn't based on the Law of Moses, but is rather based on the Law of God, or more specifically His Ten Commandments.

For some strange reason Elle seems to think the Law of Moses is pertinent to her belief that nobody will be lost but will rather all be saved.

Daryl, I have said and implied this many times in other threads. Via my personal studies this past 1.5 year this is what I understand.

But Jesus said few people find the way to life, while many find the way to destruction. Sorry if this been addressed elsewhere, but it doesn't make sense to me.

But Jesus said few people find the way to life, while many find the way to destruction. Sorry if this been addressed elsewhere, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Tx Daryl, it does appear to be the one. This is getting a little off topic again. This topic is about finding the Hell doctrine in the Law of Moses. So I will briefly answer below and link this back to this discussion.

This type of mis-understanding(Mat 7 and other text refering to destruction/death in the plan of salvation) stems basically from our ignorance of the Feasts which clearly depicts the process by which men needs to go through to be saved.

The chosen ones are to Bear Good Fruits
What Jesus said in Mat 7:13,14,21-23 is also mentioned by Luke 13:22-30 in more detail. Here Jesus is referring to the tribe of Judah in his time that was entrusted to be the “chosen ones”. When God choose someone, there is a huge responsibility that comes with it. And that is to produce good fruit and spread these fruits in the whole world(Is 27:2-6). Judah has failed as Israel had failed previously. Their own fruits were wild and they continued to act like wild asses in their ways of dealing with the foreigners by oppressing them because they weren’t genealogically Israelites. And even by dealing between each others, they did not dealt righteously according to the manner depicted in the Laws of Moses but manipulated the law of God by twisting it or by cherry picking parts to benefit their carnal interest. When time came for God to check His vineyard production(Is 5 and Mat 21) that he had entrusted to the vine-growers (Judea-the chosen ones)and they refused to return the owner(God) His share of the crops, and He finds no good fruits but only wild ones, then He will take away their privileges, pull them off his vineyard(Jerusalem) and cast them outside of the city. And give the vineyard to someone else(Mat 21:43).

Thrust out Vs. Destroyed
This is basically what Jesus is talking about in these passages. In Luke 13:28-30, it specifies that these people are thrust out (of the holy city), and v.30 add “ behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.” Luke 13 gives dimension of what destroys means. It doesn’t imply that they are “destroy” by the way we define that word meaning they will be annihilated in a literal fire. Jesus is talking about they will lose their privileges to be the “firstfruits” which are the overcomers, the 144K, the saints that will rule with Jesus(Rev 20:6). The firstfruits are the first ones to become “the manifested sons of God” (Rom 8:19) by which God’s full measure of His Glory will dwell in their temple body and will manifest the fruits of the Spirit. These people are the ones that will accomplish to bring forth more fruits until the whole earth will be filled with the glory of God(Is 27:2-6, Dn 2:35). This is the job of the “chosen ones” -- God’s vine-growers on earth.

Destruction
Of course these men(tribe of Judah in Jesus time and the denominations today not producing the fruits) needs to be destroyed. Destruction is another big word that is read/interpretated with the world or the carnal man concept and ways of doing things. But we are not seekers of this world’s ways and definitions and need to look in scriptures to pull out God’s ways and definitions within God’s plan of salvation defined in the Laws of Moses.

We ALL need to be destroyed. The “ old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed” Rom 6:6. The old man needs to be destroyed, so we can resurrect into a new creation in Christ. This is the process. Destruction/death is part of the process to bring forth a new creature.

Jesus corrected the disciples mis-understanding by making clear His work when he said “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them].” Luk 9:56 Also in 1Jo 3:8 John said “ the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” The work of destruction is Christ’s work who comes to destroy any work that is not His which will not destroy man but save him through fire.(1Cor 3:15 see below) This work of destruction is done by FIRE which purifies the metal and burns out the dross(impurities—the works of man or the devil). Some are baptized by FIRE before His second coming, and the others are baptized in the lake of FIRE after the second resurrection. All will be baptized by FIRE which is how Jesus’ baptizes us(Mat 3:11, Luk 3:16).

Mal 3:2 “ But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”.

1Co 3:15 “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ”

Soap does not kill anyone, it cleans us. Also will Jesus's fire will not kill anyone, it will purify us.

Elle, Is what you posted below your own work or that of others?

Interesting - Stephen Jones does not agree with SDA Pioneers on the 70 week prophesy - he stating that it started in 458BC, Christ was born in 2BC and was crucified in AD33 at the END of the 70 weeks. This does have significant implications for SDA interpretation of prophesy. That said, I find him more refreshing to read than some of the dispensationalists I've read recently.

Interesting - Stephen Jones does not agree with SDA Pioneers on the 70 week prophesy - he stating that it started in 458BC, Christ was born in 2BC and was crucified in AD33 at the END of the 70 weeks.

How do you connect your post to this thread?

E : a) Why does some law's verdict a define restitution, whereas some others laws the verdict is stoning to death? Isn’t only breaking one little law, the same as breaking all of them? James 2:10

R: I believe the main factor here is motivation - the death penalty was for willful, premeditated sins.

E: b)The letter of the law says “stoning” to death which is important for us to know. However, we need to go beyond the literal surface reading and seek to also know the spirit of the law which is God’s intent and perspective.

R: The way the sinner died does not matter. Not always was stoning used. Sometimes God ordered the sword to be used (Ex 32:27) - not to mention that sometimes God Himself did the killing (like in the case of Nadab and Abihu).

E: Concerning Mat 25:41 to properly understand what Jesus is talking about there’s two words that needs to be biblically define :
a) fire—could be the same as in the lake of fire and
b) everlasting (eonian in NT and Olam in OT).

R: What Jesus is talking about is that some men, in the same way as the devil and his angels, won't be saved.

Not so according to scripture. Many has done premeditated sins and the penalty was not death. David is one big example where he both killed and committed adultery and the Lord did not ask that he be killed even though that was the penalty of it according to the law. If we believe that Yah is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, we need to understand why did David didn’t die and why did those found in adultery in the time of Moses where stoned. We know the Father is Just and there must be something that we are missing.

The way the sinner died is very important and quite significant for the Law is the TYPE. All manners and symbols in the Pentateuch are important.

Ok those two incidence weren’t the norm but does reveal information.
c) the sword – what does the sword represent in scripture? That’s an easy one.
a) And again, what does the fire represent?

Before, jumping into conclusions, could you answer question a) and b)?
a) fire—could be the same as in the lake of fire and
b) everlasting (eonian in NT and Olam in OT).

The death penalty applied primarily to those who had witnessed the visible manifestation of God's glory in the Sinai, to those who had the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud leading them, but, even so, insisted in transgressing the commandments God Himself had spoken to them - this meant that the person despised God and His will and showed the person's defiant atittude toward God.
As time passed and the visible signs of God's presence were reduced, this defiant attitude might not characterize all sins.
However, the fact is that David did not die, but the Lord told him: "You shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die."

The difference is that God's people at that time were in a theocracy, and when the government changed to a monarchy, God permitted, in His grace and mercy, for some things to left unretributed.

Keep in mind the reason for such punishments in the theocracy as capital punishment: To keep the people pure. When sins are not dealt with in a clear manner, what happens? The history of Israel shows it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the "more graceful and merciful" (as you put it) response of God was actually a lower level of quality, a bit like God's allowance of meat eating following the flood, which then shortened men's lives significantly.

Do you think that if Israel was still a theocracy at His time, Jesus would have commanded the woman caught in adultery to be stoned? Do you think this would have been the best thing to be done? If yes, why? If not, why not?

Do you think that if Israel was still a theocracy at His time, Jesus would have commanded the woman caught in adultery to be stoned? Do you think this would have been the best thing to be done? If yes, why? If not, why not?

(By the way, I'm speaking about the immediate enforcement of the death penalty. I, like you, believe that the enforcement of the death penalty is just being postponed until the Day of Judgment.)

I think I am not near enough to the mind of God to know this answer. Here is what I see, from my perspective:

Two possibilities.

1) Keep the people pure for as long as possible by stamping out sin where it is egregious and public, thus enticing others to follow in the same example. This would mean that, yes, the woman AND her men should be stoned.

2) Allow sin to continue to grow while giving the people an example of God's mercy and hoping they will still prefer His ways over their own, even with increased "opportunity" to engage in sinful behaviors. This would mean that, no, the woman nor her men should be stoned.

Do you think that, during the time of the theocracy, if a person genuinely repented before being stoned, God would allow him/her to be stoned?

R: Do you think that, during the time of the theocracy, if a person genuinely repented before being stoned, God would allow him/her to be stoned?
GC: We don't seem to have any record of this kind of situation having ever occurred. The records we have are of admissions of guilt, driven from fear, after having been discovered. Achan is a prime example. He was stoned. But his was not a genuine repentance.

Well, maybe you believe that, when Israel passed from judges to kings, God ceased to rule the nation. I don't believe that.