Who were the 'spirits in prison'?

I finally understand the following verse but I want to have everyones input before I go over what I have found:

1 Peter 3:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Many churches and ministers teach that the 'spirits in prison' were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous which go up to heaven. They use this verse to say tha after Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the 'spirits in prison'. So who were the 'spirits in prison'?

When Jesus came into the Synagogue to proclaim "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance" Luke 4:18

This shows who the Captives are.

We are in quarantine, like prison, to keep evil from God's universe.

We were set free by Jesus from captivity to sin and eventually we will be set free from being held to earth. This universe, the universe for us, is a prison because of space and time which is very inhospitable to us physically.

This bit of Physics explains. Did you know that at the speed of light time stands still?

If we were ever to accomplish traveling that fast, which would take more energy than all of our solar system holds, it would not accomplish anything because of the prison we are in. The prison of our material universe cannot be escaped even to give us a pass to visit the next inhabitable rock.

We dwell in the prison, leading to execution, our second death. Jesus came to set us free from that condemnation.

The tower of Babel was an attempt at escaping this prison. The Space race is another tower of Babel. Attempting to get away from the wrath of God.

It doesn't say Christ went and preached to them while He was in the tomb.
The preaching to these people was done while THEY were alive-- while the ark was being prepared.
The Holy Spirit working with their minds (spirit often refers to the mind of people) urging them to accept God's offered plan of salvation.

The "spirits in prison," literally, in "guaro", in the grave. Yet "dead in sin" is even more deadly than the death of "sleep" from which there is a resurrection. For indeed to be dead in sin is a prision from which there is no escape, outside of Christ.

Christ preached by his Spirit through Noah to the antediluvians while they were yet alive, while they still had opportunity to repent.
The preaching was done "when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah".
At that time they were disobedient and now they are all in their graves. NOW in a prison without hope because they rejected the Spirit of Life when it was preached to them.


This may also go into deeper spiritual application.

The situation of the antediluvians while the Spirit through Noah was preaching to them was similar to that of those to whom Christ preached. They were in darkness and error and under the condemnation of death that would soon and suddenly come upon them. Their rejection of Christ would seal their prison forever.


The same power that raised Christ from the dead, also raises people from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Peter is pleading with his country men not be like the people prior to the flood --

Are you saying these 'captives' are disembodied people held down under the ground?

This is a very difficult passage for Adventist and cant seem to get a grasp on its meaning or define who these spirits are and I came across some articles but very few written by Adventist on this, some with the point you make. Here are some in Adventist publications and posts...


https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1988/April/christ-and-the-imprisoned-spirits



https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1999/August/spirits-in-prison



http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/2009/9/Preaching-dead.htm



http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/T0KTTPI7TVTR7T6RD

I'm sorry brother, but how did you get that out of this statement?

Are you serious or are you messing with me?

The prison is our planet earth. We are in prison until Jesus saves our souls so we can be brought back to connection with the Father and enter into His presence.

How did you get disembodied spirits from what I wrote?

The end time deception is disembodied spirits trying to deceive the world that the dead are alive in heaven and Satan comes as an angel of light. I have been saying this on this website for over a year. So why would I say here...? never mind.

Maybe I misunderstood the, "are in quarantine, like prison, to keep evil from God's universe."..but if the people are dead and buried, what did you mean. They dont feel or know or have awareness so how could they be in a such a place and be preached to.

Take a look, as Peter repeats the same motif later and we see who the 'spirits' are, its not people.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

This passage cites examples to show that God can hold the wicked for punishment until the day of judgment: the evil angels who are evil spirits and then goes to Noah at the time of the Flood. It says the angels sinned against God, who is now holding them in restraint, in 'hell' (Tartarus), in a place of great darkness which for the evil spirits is a prison, until the day of judgment.

Now curiously, I keep coming across in non Canon and other sources pointing to the 'Nephilim'. Can anyone give us a deeper explanation for a better understanding of who the 'Nephilim' are?

Probably better for a different thread, but the Nephilim were the children of the 'Son's of God', Seth's descendants who were worshipers of God, and the Daughters of men, the descendants of Cain.

Cain could take as many waves as he wanted. So could his sons. They very quickly over ran the population with God haters.

When Cains descendants learned to make themselves more attractive by the way they dressed and wore their hair and put on jewelry and makeup the sons of God began to lust after them and soon the distinction was blurred between righteousness and sin by intermarrying.

Satan took full advantage of this situation.

For some unknown reason the children that came from that intermarrying were giants, full of strength and intellect to destroy God's people. It has nothing to do with angels having sexual relations with women, in fact it's the other way around.
The women were possessed of demons and they had sex with the Son's who worshiped God.

Since the beginning Satan has used un-sanctified women to bring the men of God down. Look what happened just before entering the promised land.

Can you find what Spirit of Prophecy says on the subject, as we have to take into account that other planets were also created and God created inhabitants on them. So lets look at the, "sons of God" (or "Nephilim") in question in Genesis 6:1–4, immediately before the story of Noah's ark:

"1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
."


The nature of the Nephilim is unclear as to exactly what they are.

So for the sake of argument to dig deeper, lets look into the "fallen angels" interpretation to see if it can be discounted or support found for it. You find that the Hebrew for the phrase "the sons of God" (Hebrew, בְּנֵי הָֽאֱלֹהִים;) is used just two times outside of Genesis chapter 6. In both instances (namely, Job 1:6 and Job 2:1) the phrase references angels.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

Lets look in SOP next....

Now that some others have weighed in on this, let me share my perspective.

First, we will follow Biblical rules for interpretation, including the following points: context, comparing scripture with scripture, and letting the Bible interpret itself.

We need more of the context, so let's go back a few verses and start with verse 15 of 1 Peter 3, then continue reading to verse two of the following chapter (the chapter divisions were arbitrary).



Now I will chart some notable parallels.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, I want you to go the Hebrew and Greek, and if you could check the Spirit of Prophecy also, as I am stuck at work. But, tell me, how do you see the verse where Peter repeats the same motif later:

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

As it says the angels sinned against God, who is now holding them in restraint, in 'hell' (Tartarus), in a place of great darkness until the day of judgment.

Rick, the spirits in prison were the lost ones in Noah's day. But they rejected the "salvation" message.

Again, let's consider the context. The two verses you quoted require context on both sides to properly understand what Peter is talking about. (They don't even finish the sentence.)



I won't take time to make a comparison table this time, but notice that at the beginning of the passage I quoted above, Peter is on the subject of prophecy and its source. He then goes on to add that there are, in addition to the true prophets which speak on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, also false prophets and false teachers. He says many will follow these falsehoods, to the point that the truth will "be evil spoken of."

The following verses, including the two you quoted, speak of the judgment that is to come upon the instigators and participants in the heresies and spread of falsehoods.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, ...." Does this text mean that the angels are burning in hell now? What is "hell?" From the context, "hell" is this earth. The angels were cast out of Heaven for their apostasy and were brought down to earth. "...And delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; ...." Again, are these angels in "chains?" What are these "chains of darkness?" I would interpret them to be representative of the bonds of error, ignorance and sin which are symbolized by darkness. "Light," the opposite of "darkness," represents truth and righteousness. By contrast, the darkness is where works of evil are said to be done. "Chains of darkness" would refer to the bondage of sin.

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of ungodly; ...." Again, Peter is using an example. Peter was fascinated with examples. Read through his two short books and you will find them littered with examples. At times he even uses the word "example" himself. In this case, Peter is giving us an example of God's judgment. He's pointing out that God does have a sense of justice, and that those who are wicked will have judgment coming to them. He uses the example of Noah's day to illustrate the kind of justice which those received who rejected God's invitation of mercy.

In the verses which follow, Peter provides yet another example, that of Lot in Sodom, and how those cities were destroyed by God as an example to all those who should live ungodly lives afterward. Verse 9 follows with Peter's conclusion, being that "the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished."

Really, these passages seem simple enough to me. Their meaning is certainly a spiritual one, but not difficult to grasp. It is not as though there is some secret, special message about Jesus preaching to the already-deceased of Noah's day after the fact. The fact is, Jesus already preached to them during Noah's time through both Noah's example and his voice. But they were imprisoned by their own misconceptions and reasonings, and were to proud to listen or to admit the error of their ways. They did not desire to change, and therefore did not. In following their carnal natures, they chose an undesirable destiny. God's judgments fell upon them after 120 years of mercy and message had failed to influence them to change their course.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Well, now compare that verse to the one in Jude which repeats almost the same.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Now lets go to the story of the demons who possessed a man that Jesus comes across:

Luke 8
King James Version (KJV)
27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

Note, there was a place they did not want Jesus to "command them to go out into the deep."

Now in Revelation we are told there is a abyss or bottomless pit from the Greek 'abussos' deriving from the Greek element meaning "deep, bottom" in which Satan himself is cast and is not free to go and cannot deceive the nations.

Revelation 20:1
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

So there is a place of restraint which doesnt allow Satan to do what he wants to do and also holds him in place.

I am not saying 'hell' or 'purgatory' or anything like that, but a place of restraint, which scripture shows us.

I don't have much time, but like to say that the focus of Peter’s letters wasn’t about false prophets, but about disobedience to the Lord as the fallen angels were. Of course the Lord will always send false prophets in our midst and this is how He show our true heart condition whether we will obey the Lord or not.

A side note, these fallen angels where false prophets too and persuaded the whole earth of their deception in Noah’s time. I will elaborate on that later.
A comment about your above underlined statement. The definition of kerusso is “to herald” or “to proclaim”. It is different than preaching. A proclamation can be done in a form of preaching, but we shouldn’t assume that preaching is always done in a proclamation.

1 Peter 3:18 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached[Kerusso, to herald] unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

His resurrection or as worded above “quickened by the spirit” was a proclamation that went into all the earth especially to those “spirits in prison” or “the angels that sinned , but cast them down to hell[tartarus]”. I agree with Rick, these are fallen angels as it is plainly stated.

The fallen angels are not dead and are able to hear this proclamation and that is one reason the emphasis is made here whereas all the people who died whether in Noah’s days or not, cannot hear it for they are asleep and not aware. The people who were alive in those days, most was not able to hear or understand this proclamation, however, those in tartarus was in the ability to hear and was very well in the knowing of what Jesus' resurection meant.

The proclamation(or His resurrection meant) was that Jesus is Lord over all(including the fallen angels) and that all was subject to Him, and that He had been given a Name above every name(Phil 2:10) is confirmed by Peter’s conclusion in his next verse :

1 Peter 3:22 “Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Very good post Elle, as Adventist, any verses pf 'fallen angels' being held in restraint or 'prison' sounds like the Greek myths of Hades, so its difficult for us and we tend to shy away or try to spiritualize, or evem turn a blind eye to some parts of the Bible which we cant make fit. Thus the dilemna with these verses from Peter....

Now we have more of these verses....


Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

These are hard verses for Adventist to get a grasp of and come up with a viable answer.

Lets look at a explanation of Peter's verse by Amazing Facts....

"Spirits In Prison
Please explain 1 Peter 3:18-20 where it speaks of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

- 1 Peter 3:18-20


There has been considerable misunderstanding of these verses of Scripture. It has been preached that Christ actually descended into the lower regions of the earth and preached to lost souls who were in prison in some type of purgatory or limbo. This is very far from what the text actually says. Let's look at it closely now and get the real message of these verses. It says, "Christ also hath once suffered for sins ... that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also He went and preached ..."

First of all, notice how Christ preached to those spirits in prison. He did it by the Spirit, and that word is capitalized in your Bible. It actually refers to the Holy Spirit. So whatsoever Christ did in preaching during this period of time, He did it through or by the Holy Spirit.

With that in view, let's ask this: "When was the preaching done?" The answer is plainly given in verse 20: "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing." So the preaching was actually done while the ark was being built -- during the preaching of Noah to that antediluvian world. Now, one more question: "To whom was the preaching done?" The text says here "unto the spirits in prison." Throughout the Bible we find this terminology used in describing those who are bound in the prison house of sin. David prayed, "Bring my soul out of prison, ..." (Psalm 142:7).

Paul spoke of his experience in these words, "bringing me into captivity to the law of sin." What Peter is telling us here is simply that Christ, through the Holy Spirit, was present while Noah preached; Christ was there through the Holy Spirit to speak conviction to their hearts and appeal to them to come into the ark. There is absolutely nothing in this text to indicate that Jesus left His body during the time He was dead to go to any subterranean place to minister to wicked spirits. The three questions are clearly answered in the text itself: (1) that He preached by the Holy Spirit, (2) He did it while the ark was preparing, and (3) He did it to the spirits in prison, or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin."
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/spirits-in-prison.aspx

But I think they are missing the point, I think the question here is really is it about "lost souls" or "fallen angels". If it is about "lost souls" then it goes against all the many verses in scripture that clearly show that the dead know nothing and scripture does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as immortal before the resurrection. Now if they are "fallen angels", then there is no conflict with what scripture gives us on the state of the dead.

They said it well. That was the view that I was trying to give, though perhaps my manner of presentation made it more difficult to understand. I did use more supporting texts, though. I like to use the Bible to interpret itself as much as possible when a difficult question like this comes up.

Their points were the same points I was trying to make though. And they are spot on.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

But here is the problem, these are not "lost souls" of human beings. The Greek word used in the verse is 'pneumasin' [Strong's Greek 4151] which is used in the New Testament to refer to angels (Hebrews 1:14), demons (Mark 1:23), the spirit of Jesus (Matthew 27:50), and the Holy Spirit (John 14:17). While the Bible makes it clear that human beings have the 'breath (of God)' His spirit or 'psuche' [Strong's Greek 5590] the Bible never refers to human beings as “spirits” or 'pneumasin'. We have a 'breath (of God)' or 'psuche' which makes us a living soul, but we are not spirits. God the Father, the Holy Spirit, angels, and demons do not have a spirit; they are spirits. So the standard meaning of the word spirits in the phrase “spirits in prison” shows that the spirits being something other than human beings.

If the spirits in prison are not the spirits of deceased human beings, and we know that the Holy Spirit is not imprisoned, and that God’s holy angels are not imprisoned, that leaves us with one option—the spirits in prison are demons, fallen angels.

So if you look at where the word 'pneumasin' is used in the scriptures and compare, 1 Peter 3:19 declares, “. . . He went and preached to the spirits in prison…” Who were these “spirits in prison,” it has in the the Greek 'tois en phulake pneumasin', or "the in prison spirits", they are 'pneumasin'. Lets look at the other use of pneumasin':

Luke 4:36
They were all amazed and began to say to one another, “What’s happening here? For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits (pneumasin), and they come out!”


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits (pneumasin) and doctrines of devils

So now you see what spirits (pneumasin) Peter is talking about, it refers to 'pneumasin', which are evil spirits (fallen angels).

This study is a distortion of what the Bible actually says without looking at other key texts that would contradict this interpretation.

Here's their 3 points with my comments in [brackets]:

(1) that He preached by the Holy Spirit [The text does not say that at all, but rather that Jesus was quickened by the Spirit -- meaning resurrected.]

(2) He did it while the ark was preparing [Again not saying that at all. The text is referring to the spirits that were in prison(specified angels kept in Tartarus in 2 Pet 2:4) that were disobedient in the time of Noah. ]

(3) He did it to the spirits in prison, or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin [ Well I just read Rick's post above and I agree with his word study. The spirits in prison is clearly specified in 2Pet 2:4 to be the fallen angels. There's many other texts to support that also. ]

Good word study Rick!

Rick,

Yes they are the "lost souls" (if we presume to know the future of those souls and can be definitive that they are indeed "lost"). At least we can be definitive that the word applies to the human spirit as well as to a divine spirit.

The following verses use the exact same Greek word as the one which Peter used. These are but a sampling, and I am choosing the ones which emphasize the usage which I believe Peter has given to the word.



The word is used as "soul" in these verses, and it is the same word which Peter uses in speaking of preaching to these "souls" in bondage to sin.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I noticed that in the 4151 in Strongs and the difference and I will have to check, was 'spirit' versus 'spirits' if I remember. You are making me study hard GC, and Greek and Hebrew at that.....

Now here is the word "Deep", Hebrew 'tehom', Greek 'abussos', which is very interesting......

DEEP
(tehom; abussos, Luke 8:31 the King James Version; Romans 10:7 the King James Version; bathos, Luke 5:4; buthos, 2 Corinthians 11:25):

The Hebrew word ("water in commotion") is used

(1) of the primeval watery waste (Genesis 1:2), where some suggest a connection with Babylonian Tiamat in the creation-epic;

(2) of the sea (Isaiah 51:10 and commonly);

(3) of the subterranean reservoir of water (Genesis 7:11; Genesis 8:2; Genesis 49:25 Deuteronomy 33:13 Ezekiel 31:4, etc.). In the Revised Version (British and American) the Greek word first noted is rendered, literally, "abyss." See ABYSS; also ASTRONOMY, sec. III, 7.

Pastor Bachelor is right on here.

Ok, we see here the Hebrew 'ruach'; the Greek 'pneuma'; and the Latin, 'spiritus'. As you can see it is the singular form and the usage (and correct me if I am wrong) for the verses you were refering to would be (3)Spiritual Manifestations 3. Human and Divine Spirit.


SPIRIT

spir'-it (ruach; pneuma; Latin, spiritus):

1. Primary and Figurative Senses

(1) As Wind, Breath

(2) As Anger or Fury

(3) As Mental and Moral Qualities in Man

2. Shades of Meaning

(1) As Life-Principle

(2) As Surviving Death

(3) Spiritual Manifestations

3. Human and Divine Spirit

(1) The Human as Related with the Divine

(2) Operations of the Divine Spirit as Third Person of the Trinity

4. Old Testament Applications

5. Various Interpretations

1. Primary and Figurative Senses:

(1) As Wind, Breath:

Used primarily in the Old Testament and New Testament of the wind, as in Genesis 8:1 Numbers 11:31 Amos 4:13 ("createth the wind"); Hebrews 1:7 (angels, "spirits" or "winds" in margin); often used of the breath, as in Job 12:10; Job 15:30, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (wicked consumed by "the breath of his mouth").

(2) As Anger or Fury:

In a figurative sense it was used as indicating anger or fury, and as such applied even to God, who destroys by the "breath of his nostrils" (Job 4:9 Exodus 15:8 2 Samuel 22:16; see 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

(3) As Mental and Moral Qualities in Man:

Hence, applied to man-as being the seat of emotion in desire or trouble, and thus gradually of mental and moral qualities in general (Exodus 28:3, "the spirit of wisdom"; Ezekiel 11:19, "a new spirit" etc.). Where man is deeply stirred by the Divine Spirit, as among the prophets, we have a somewhat similar use of the word, in such expressions as: "The Spirit of the Lord came.... upon him" (1 Samuel 10:10).

2. Shades of Meaning:

(1) As Life-Principle:

The spirit as life-principle in man has various applications: sometimes to denote an apparition (Matthew 14:26, the King James Version "saying, It is a spirit"; Luke 24:37, the King James Version "had seen a spirit"); sometimes to denote angels, both fallen and unfallen (Hebrews 1:14, "ministering spirits"; Matthew 10:1, "unclean spirits"; compare also Matthew 12:43 Mark 1:23, 26, 27; and in Revelation 1:4, "the seven Spirits.... before his throne").

(2) As Surviving Death:

The spirit is thus in man the principle of life-but of man as distinguished from the brute-so that in death this spirit is yielded to the Lord (Luke 23:46 Acts 7:59 1 Corinthians 5:5, "that the spirit may be saved"). Hence, God is called the "Father of spirits" (Hebrews 12:9).

(3) Spiritual Manifestations:

Thus generally for all the manifestations of the spiritual part in man, as that which thinks, feels, wills; and also to denote certain qualities which characterize the man, e.g. "poor in spirit" (Matthew 5:3); "spirit of gentleness" (Galatians 6:1); "of bondage" (Romans 8:15); "of jealousy" (Numbers 5:14); "of fear" (2 Timothy 1:7 the King James Version); "of slumber" (Romans 11:8 the King James Version). Hence, we are called upon to "rule over our own spirit" (Proverbs 16:32; Proverbs 25:28), and are warned against being overmastered by a wrong spirit (Luke 9:55 the King James Version, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of"). So man may submit to the "spirit of error," and turn away from the "spirit of truth" (1 John 4:6). Thus we read of the "spirit of counsel" (Isaiah 11:2); "of wisdom" (Ephesians 1:17).

3. Human and Divine Spirit:

(1) The Human as Related with the Divine:

We go a step higher when we find the human spirit brought into relationship with the Divine Spirit. For man is but a creature to whom life has been imparted by God's spirit-life being but a resultant of God's breath. Thus life and death are realistically described as an imparting or a withdrawing of God's breath, as in Job 27:3; Job 33:4; Job 34:14, "spirit and breath" going together. The spirit may thus be "revived" (Genesis 45:27), or "overwhelmed" (Psalm 143:4), or "broken" (Proverbs 15:13). And where sin has been keenly felt, it is "a broken spirit" which is "a sacrifice to God" (Psalm 51:17); and when man submits to the power of sin, a new direction is given to his mind: he comes under a "spirit of whoredom" (Hosea 4:12); he becomes "proud in spirit" (Ecclesiastes 7:8), instead of being "patient in spirit"; he is a fool because he is "hasty in spirit" and gives way to "anger" (Ecclesiastes 7:9). The "faithful in spirit" are the men who resist talebearing and backbiting in the world (Proverbs 11:13). In such instances as these the difference between "soul" and "spirit" appears.


(Hebrews ruah; Gr. pneuma), properly wind or breath. In 2 Thessalonians 2:8 it means "breath," and in Ecclesiastes 8:8 the vital principle in man. It also denotes the rational, immortal soul by which man is distinguished (Acts 7:59; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 6:20; 7:34), and the soul in its separate state (Hebrews 12:23), and hence also an apparition (Job 4:15; Luke 24:37, 39), an angel (Hebrews 1:14), and a demon (Luke 4:36; 10:20). This word is used also metaphorically as denoting a tendency (Zechariah 12:10; Luke 13:11).

In Romans 1:4, 1 Timothy 3:16, 2 Corinthians 3:17, 1 Peter 3:18, it designates the divine nature.


4151. pneuma -- wind, spirit
... wind, spirit. Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: pneuma Phonetic Spelling:
(pnyoo'-mah) Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit Definition: wind ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4151.htm - 8k

1140. daimonion -- an evil spirit, a demon
... an evil spirit, a demon. Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: daimonion
Phonetic Spelling: (dahee-mon'-ee-on) Short Definition: an evil-spirit, demon ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/1140.htm - 7k

4875. sunanapauomai -- to lie down to rest with, fig. to be ...
... to be refreshed in spirit with. Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: sunanapauomai
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-an-ap-ow'-om-ahee) Short Definition: I rest along ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4875.htm - 7k

5011. tapeinos -- low-lying, fig. lowly, hence lowly in spirit
... lowly, hence lowly in spirit. Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: tapeinos
Phonetic Spelling: (tap-i-nos') Short Definition: humble, lowly Definition ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/5011.htm - 7k

5326. phantasma -- an appearance, apparition
... Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: phantasma Phonetic Spelling:
(fan'-tas-mah) Short Definition: an apparition, ghost, spirit Definition: an ... spirit. ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/5326.htm - 6k

2473. isopsuchos -- like-minded
... Adjective Transliteration: isopsuchos Phonetic Spelling: (ee-sop'-soo-khos) Short
Definition: like-minded Definition: like-minded, of the same mind or spirit. ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/2473.htm - 7k

1142. daimon -- a demon
... a demon. Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: daimon Phonetic Spelling:
(dah'-ee-mown) Short Definition: an evil-spirit, demon Definition: an evil ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/1142.htm - 7k

4102. pistis -- faith, faithfulness
... Gal 5:22,23: " 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,. ... "Faith . . .
both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4102.htm - 18k

2204. zeo -- to boil, be hot
... to boil, be hot. Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: zeo Phonetic Spelling:
(dzeh'-o) Short Definition: I burn in spirit Definition: (lit: I boil, am boiling ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/2204.htm - 7k

1637. elaion -- olive oil
... Cognate: 1637 -- olive (from 1636 , "olive tree"); (figuratively) the indwelling
(empowering) of the Holy Spirit. While true believers ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/1637.htm - 7k
7307. ruach -- breath, wind, spirit
... << 7306, 7307. ruach. 7308 >>. breath, wind, spirit. Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh) Short Definition: spirit. Word ...
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/7307.htm - 6k

7308. ruach -- wind, spirit
... << 7307, 7308. ruach. 7309 >>. wind, spirit. Transliteration: ruach Phonetic
Spelling: (roo'-akh) Short Definition: spirit. Word Origin ...
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/7308.htm - 6k

3049. yiddeoni -- familiar spirit
... << 3048, 3049. yiddeoni. 3050 >>. familiar spirit. Transliteration: yiddeoni Phonetic
Spelling: (yid-deh-o-nee') Short Definition: spiritists. ...
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/3049.htm - 6k

5397. neshamah -- breath
... Word Origin from nasham Definition breath NASB Word Usage blast (2), breath (15),
breathes (1), life (1), persons alive (1), spirit (2), who breathed (3). ...
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/5397.htm - 6k

178. ob -- a bottle (made from animal skin), a necromancer
... from an unused word Definition a bottle (made from animal skin), a necromancer NASB
Word Usage medium (2), medium* (3), mediums (9), spirit (1), wineskins (1). ...
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/178.htm - 6k

4578. meeh -- internal organs, inward parts, belly
... Word Usage abdomen (1), body (4), bowels (4), children* (1), feelings (1), heart
(4), inward parts (1), offspring* (1), own (1), soul (2), spirit (2), stomach ...
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/4578.htm - 6k

7115. qotser -- shortness
... anguish. From qatsar; shortness (of spirit), ie Impatience -- anguish. see HEBREW
qatsar. << 7114b, 7115. qotser. 7116 >>. Strong's Numbers.
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/7115.htm - 6k

8105. shemer -- lees, dregs
... Word Origin from an unused word Definition lees, dregs NASB Word Usage aged
wine (2), dregs (2), spirit (1). dregs, wines on the lees. ...
//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew2/8105.htm - 6k

Spirit
A word employed in various senses in Scripture.

1. For THE HOLY, HOLINESS SPIRIT, the third person of the Holy Trinity, who inspired the prophets, animates good men, pours his unction into our hearts, imparts to us life and comfort; and in whose name we are baptized and blessed, as well as in that of the Father and the Son. When the adjective Holy is applied to the term Spirit, we should always understand it as here explained; but there are many places whether it must be taken in this sense, although the term Holy is omitted. See HOLY, HOLINESS SPIRIT.

2.BREATH, respiration; or the principle of animal life, common to men and animal: this God has given, and this he recalls when he takes away life, Ecclesiastes 3:21. See SOUL.

3. The RATIONAL SOUL which animates us, and preserves its being after the death of the body. That spiritual, reasoning, and choosing substance, which is capable of eternal happiness. See SOUL.


4. An ANGEL, good or bad; a soul separate from the body, Mark 14:26. It is said, Acts 23:8, that the Sadducees denied the existence of angels and spirits. Christ, appearing to his disciples, said to them, Luke 24:39, "Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

5. The DISPOSITION of the mind or intellect. Thus we read of a spirit of jealously, a spirit of fornication, a spirit of prayer, a spirit of infirmity, a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of fear of the Lord, Hosea 4:12 Zechariah 12:10 Luke 13:11 Isaiah 11:2.

6. The RENEWED NATURE of true believers, which is produced by the Holy Spirit, and conforms the soul to his likeness. Spirit is thus the opposite of flesh, John 3:6. This spirit is virally united with, an in some passages can hardly be distinguished from the "Spirit of Christ," which animates true Christians, the children of God, and distinguishes them from the children of darkness, who are animated by the spirit of the world, Romans 8:1-16. This indwelling Spirit is the gift of grace, of adoption-the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts-which emboldens us to call God "Abba, my Father." Those who are influenced by this Spirit "have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts," Galatians 5:16-25.

So we see the word employed in various senses in the Bible and so the context has to be taken in to understand exactly what it is trying to convey.

The word used in 1 Peter 3:18-20, is 'pneumasin' which is many spirits. Then the context tells us they are not good spirits as otherwise they would not be in prison and 2 Peter 2:4 supports this context.

King James 2 Peter 2:4
'For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;'

and so does Jude 1:6
'And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.'

So in this context they are not the spirit or soul of a human being or one spirit or many holy angels, but of many fallen or evil angels.

Now the place of where these fallen angels are held for judgement, no sermon or lesson in church so far has, in my opinion, given a clear and concise understanding.

ABYSS
a-bis', (he abussos): In classical Greek the word is always an adjective, and is used

(1) literally, "very deep," "bottomless";

(2) figuratively, "unfathomable," "boundless." "Abyss" does not occur in the King James Version but the Revised Version (British and American) so transliterates abussos in each case. The the King James Version renders the Greek by "the deep" in two passages (Luke 8:31 Romans 10:7). In Revelation the King James Version renders by "the bottomless pit" (Revelation 9:1, 2, 11; Revelation 11:7; Revelation 17:8; 20:1, 3). In the Septuagint abussos is the rendering of the Hebrew word tehom. According to primitive Semitic cosmogony the earth was supposed to rest on a vast body of water which was the source of all springs of water and rivers (Genesis 1:2 Deuteronomy 8:7 Psalm 24:2; Psalm 136:6). This subterranean ocean is sometimes described as "the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4 Deuteronomy 5:8). According to Job 41:32 tehom is the home of the leviathan in which he plows his hoary path of foam. The Septuagint never uses abussos as a rendering of sheol (= Sheol = Hades) and probably tehom never meant the "abode of the dead" which was the ordinary meaning of Sheol. In Psalm 71:20 tehom is used figuratively, and denotes "many and sore troubles" through which the psalmist has passed (compare Jonah 2:5). But in the New Testament the word abussos means the "abode of demons." In Luke 8:31 the King James Version renders "into the deep" (Weymouth and The Twentieth Century New Testament = "into the bottomless pit"). The demons do not wish to be sent to their place of punishment before their destined time. Mark simply says "out of the country" (Luke 5:10). In Romans 10:7 the word is equivalent to Hades, the abode of the dead. In Revelation (where the King James Version renders invariably "the bottomless pit") abussos denotes the abode of evil spirits, but not the place of final punishment; it is therefore to be distinguished from the "lake of fire and brimstone" where the beast and the false prophet are, and into which the Devil is to be finally cast (Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10).

Thus my study....and I am also going over this with my close brothers and sisters at church, as I dont want to go into any private interpretation or lock into a unbiblical view.

Now, I have no ax to grind either way, as if they are fallen angels being held in restraint or 'lost souls', the lesson is the same. Obey and follow God.

However, one supports Adventist doctrine, the other does not. Think about it.

GC, these verses you brought does not refer to the "soul". Soul is not equated with spirit in the OT.

When the Almighty created man, Man did not become a living soul(Nephesh) until His breathe(Ruach) of the Lord was breathed into his nostrils.

Nephesh is the Hebrew word for soul and strong defines it as "a breathing creature". Lev 17:14 says "for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it". The blood is what characterized the soul for the breath(oxygen) attaches to the blood cells to impart life. So this physical reality is the symbolism of our daily spiritual reality as described in the creation of man. And that what's makes man different from Angels.

Angels has no blood therefore they have no soul. They are spirits. This is what they envied from man. Man does have a spirit(emotion or thoughts from the mind) or can be possessed or influenced by one of the spirits(good or evil). But I don't see the Bible ever defining man or relating to man as a spirit.

I've looked up all occurences of spirit s used in plural in the NT and none is related to man as Rick says.

Can you back that up by addressing with scriptures the three distorted points Doug makes?

Satan wanted to be free of God, so he and his angels were sent out of God's Universe with no where to stand. This is the original place called the abyss, nothing there, dark, cold, completely void of light. The only access they had to light was from the portal to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Demons are terrified of that place called the abyss and would rather be sent into swine then be sent back there.

The future sense of the word abyss is during the 1000 years that satan and crew are stuck here waiting the execution of there sentence. He has a place to stand but that's about it, and he has a thousand years to witness the results of his failed coup, anticipating his execution.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Does the word "spirits" in these verses refer to angels or to men?

Fortunately most people who read this are too smarat to believe it. Especially with absolutely no documentation.

Signed: The FREAK

Rick,

I have bolded the part in your post above where I think you may be going astray in your thinking. Strictly speaking, the statement you have made is correct, but I can see as it were the wheels of your mind tending toward the equation of "not good spirits" with "evil spirits," i.e. "demons." That A = B = C progression is invalid. Let's go straight back to A for a moment and determine that it is correctly applied when referring to the human spirit.

Consider that these are "not good spirits"...



Both of these verses tell us that we are not good, only God is good. Even the best of us is not good. How, then, could our spirits be good? They must be necessarily be evil.

We are all lost and captive to sin without a knowledge and faith acceptance of the Gospel.

Let's look at our "captivity" for a moment:



These passages allude to the captivity of all people. Paul wishes to be delivered from his captivity, and expressly declares it as captivity to sin. Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." So the captivity is, at least in part, caused by ignorance of the truth. It is truth that liberates.

Here's another passage to contemplate.



Consider the spiritual application of the above, in addition to the physical. In fact, why is it that the righteous do not recall having done all of those things to Jesus? Might it be that they have understood only the physical sense of it and have missed the symbols?

Feed the hungry = Provide spiritual food/nourishment to those who hunger for the truth
Thirsty = Desirous of the water of life
Stranger = Non-member guest at church, or "un-churched" person
Naked = Not having Christ's robe of righteousness
Sick = sin-sick
In prison = in bondage to sin, captive by sin

David recognizes that without God's help, even he is lost: "I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments." (Psalm 119:176) Jesus speaks of this world as a lost sheep, a lost coin, or as a lost son. We are all "lost" by default in this world. This is why Jesus came to save and to redeem us. It is this very concept that Peter refers to in saying that Jesus preached unto the spirits in prison by His death and resurrection. Jesus Himself said that if He were "lifted up" He would "draw all men" to Himself. In other words, the sacrifice He made on the cross would preach to everyone.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, you see my line of thinking very clearly, as Daryl knows I take the bit by the teeth and bear down till either the scripture bears it out, or the Holy Spirit unveils the truth of the matter. So my next question for us (and I am including everyone) is what does the Spirit of Prophecy say on these verses, we need to pray and humbly search the testimony given to us and see if it can shed some light on this.

Happy Sabbath
Rick

Rosangela,

Heb 12:9 literaly says that we had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits, or 'angels' from context, ( 4151 [e] pneumaton 'of spirits'), and live?

Heb 12:23 the context clearly says it is the spirits of righteous human beings, in this case Enoch and Elijah come to mind. It uses 'pneumasi' instead of 'pneumaton'. (4151 [e] pneumasi to [the] spirits, 1342 [e] dikaion: of [the] righteous 5048 [e] teteleiomenon; [who] have been perfected; Enoch and Elijah could in no way walk or be with God unless they (in this case their spiritual side) were perfected.

So you have to look at context, and usage, and see if the Greek word varies, its not easy.

Shabbat Shalom
Rick

Heb 12:9 -- Angels -- if you read the chapter, it is talking about disciplining us for sonship. The only man that is born as Son of G-d is Adam. All other people are sons of men(born of men). We become sons of G-d only by through discipline and once we graduate we will be adopted. Besides Adam, all angels were created by the Father. They were not procreated like people are.

Heb 12:9 is stating us an obvious reasoning by pointing out that earthly (carnal) Fathers disciplines their children and we give them reverence, so shouldn't we rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits(angels) who has and still is disciplining them by which are still kept alive in Tartarus waiting for their just judgment. The spirits in Heb 12:9 cannot be men for the Father has not fathered us. It is true that He is disciplining us in the goal to bring us into Sonship, however the manifestation of the Sons of God(graduation day for the Firstfruit company) will only come at Jesus 2nd coming.

Heb 12:23 -- spirits of just Men that is made perfect -- It is the spirits of a group of men that is made perfect. It is not their body or other parts of their being that is made perfect, but the text specifies that it is their spirit. This is totally different then referencing men as spirits.

Elle, I cant believe we wrote almost the same explanation.

God Bless my sister, Rick

It sounds like you are looking for Ellen White's interpretation of the passages in Peter. Let's look a little at that. I really do have an affinity for viewing things in table form, so pardon me as I post more HTML (which you may not wish to quote in your post(s)).

Ellen White's Remarks on the "Spirits in Prison" Passage
Reference	Text	EGW Comments
1 Peter 3:18-20	For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.	Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1} In consequence of Adam's transgression, sin was introduced into the fair world that God had created, and men and women became more and still more bold in disobeying His law. The Lord looked down upon the impenitent world, and decided that He must give transgressors an exhibition of His power. He caused Noah to know His purpose, and instructed him to warn the people while building an ark in which the obedient could find shelter until God's indignation was overpast. For one hundred and twenty years Noah proclaimed the message of warning to the antediluvian world; but only a few repented. Some of the carpenters he employed in building the ark, believed the message, but died before the flood; others of Noah's converts backslid. The righteous on the earth were but few, and only eight lived to enter the ark. These were Noah and his family. {FE 504.2} It was not Christ's mission to exalt himself as an astrologer. His work was with sinful human beings, whom he came to save from hopeless woe and misery. The angel that foretold his birth declared, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." And more than six hundred years before, he himself had declared: "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness." This was his mission. {YI, March 21, 1901 par. 6}

I didn't find any statement of Mrs. White directly referencing Peter's words, but there are countless that speak of the things which Peter spoke of; namely, the Flood, the antediluvians, the captives to sin, and the spirits of men, angels, and God. The there statements I posted above touch on these topics.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes, I noticed that. We were typing at the same time and posted 4 minutes apart. This is a type of double witness.

Blessed Sabbath, brother!

Brother Rick, Happy Sabbath.

If I may draw your attention to the perspective of your quote...

Peter is speaking of Jesus in past tense.

"1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring (future tense) us to God..."

There is no suffering after death, so the perspective must be the suffering He endured before physically dying.

Christ, the just, suffered so He could bring us to God, this much is obvious, but who is the next verse talking about?

"being put to death in the flesh , but quickened by the Spirit".

Since there is no differentiation made between the two parties in the verse before, this must be talking about both parties.

In other words It is both Christ and us that is being put to death in the flesh and quickened by the Spirit.

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..."

So if this is taken to it's fullest intent, we are seeing that God is using us to teach other prisoners. Jesus died on the cross so we can die to the flesh receiving full conversion for our souls, empowered unto new life. Jesus is as much a part of those moments that lead to others being converted as He was on the cross. So He visits men in prison through His followers throughout history all the way back before the flood.

The same spirit that quickened Jesus in His resurrection, brings quickening to our souls in this prison of fallen life. He sends us His Spirit to set us free and quicken us at our resurrection or translation.

Here we see the intent of this passage. Peter is trying to draw our attention to the quickening of the Spirit that Jesus received which He wants to give us poor prisoners in the material world of the flesh, releasing us from slavery to sin.

We do not see this passage in the right light because very few see it as God wants us to see it. Most people look at this scripture and immediately go down the path of seeing death as the prison, and they get confused and tricked in to believing Ghosts.

It is true that death is the penalty of sin, though it is second death that we need to fear most. But the fact that we are all physically in the prison of mortality from birth to death in this life is not even contemplated. We are under probation in a mortal body and do not have the robe of righteous light. The thought does not cross most men's minds to see this from the perspective of where Adam fell from. They normalize the perspective and our fallen nature becomes the standardized inescapable reality, and this hinders faith.

This is a good study. I was woken up in the night with this perspective on these thoughts.

Well if you look at Amazing Facts explanation of Peters second repetition of the motif, they now see it is as fallen angels and speak to that...

'Angels Cast Down to Hell (2 Peter 2:4)

(The Bible repeatedly speaks of hell and hell-fire, and of the wicked going down into hell when they die. This proves the conscious state of the dead.)

The simple way to answer this objection is to examine the use of the word "hell" throughout the Bible. In the Old Testament, "hell" is always translated from the Hebrew word sheol, which means simply "the unseen state.” (See Young's Analytical Concordance.) The idea of fire or punishment is not found in the word. We read, "Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly. . . . out of the belly of hell [sheol] cried I" Jonah 2:1,2. It would be difficult to imagine anything akin to fire in connection with a cold sea monster. The marginal reading of this text gives "the grave" as the translation of hell, or sheol.

Sheol is very frequently translated "grave." Both good and bad go there. "What man is he that lives, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave [sheol]?" Ps. 89:48. The godly man job said, "If 1 wait, the grave [sheol] is mine house." job 17:13. The psalmist wrote,” The wicked shall be turned into hell [sheol]." Ps. 9:17. In the New Testament the word "hell" * is translated from the three following Greek words:

1. Once from the root tartaros, which means "a dark abyss." (See Liddell and Scott's Greek Lexicon.) This word is used in connection with the casting out of the evil angels from heaven down into "darkness." There is no idea of fire or torment in the word. The passage specifically declares that these angels are "reserved unto judgment." It is a future event. (See 2 Peter 2:4; Rev. 12:7-10.) Following are the New Testament references where the word "hell" is used:
1.From tartaros, 2 Peter 2:4.
2.From hades, Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:13; 20:13 14.
3.From Gehenna, Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5. James 3:6.
2. Ten times from hades, which means "the nether world, the grave, death.” (See Liddell and Scott's Greek Lexicon.) Hades describes the same place as sheol. This is evident from these two facts: 1.The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament, almost without exception, uses hades as the translation of sheol.
2.In quoting the Old Testament prophecy regarding Christ: "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [sheol]," the New Testament writer gives, "hell [hades]." (See Ps. 16: 10; Acts 2:27.)
When the word "hell," translated from hades, appears in the New Testament, the reader should not understand it to mean the exclusive abode of the wicked or a place of fire and brimstone, because: 1.The primary definition of hades, as already noted, does not demand such an understanding of the word.
2.We have shown that the Old Testament speaks of the righteous as well as the wicked going down to sheol. We have also shown that hades describes the same place or state. Did the ancient patriarchs go down into a place of flames?
3.The New Testament speaks of Christ's being in hades. (See Acts 2:27.) In order to be consistent, most of those who believe in the doctrine of disembodied souls and present-burning hell-fire, feel forced to interpret this text in Acts to mean that Christ's disembodied soul went down into hellfire when He died on the cross, though at other times they endeavor to prove from Luke 23:43, 46 that Christ went up to God when He died. Both positions certainly cannot be right. The fact is that neither is correct.
Under objection 85, we showed that Luke 23:43 is wrongly interpreted. The interpretation of Acts 2:27 is equally false. As Christ died He cried out, "It is finished." His dying completed His suffering to save mankind. The erroneous ideas held by most theologians as to hell and hades have caused them their perplexity when reading this text in Acts. They cannot understand why Christ should descend into hell fire.
Though a believer in soul immortality, Albert Barnes, the eminent Presbyterian commentator, boldly disposes of the difficulty by discarding in this text the lurid value which theology has given to the word hades. He remarks: "The Greek word hades means literally a place devoid of light, a dark, obscure abode." In view of this he explains Acts 2:27 thus: "The meaning is simply, Thou wilt not leave Me AMONG THE DEAD.” (Emphasis his.) Incidentally he reminds his readers that the original word for soul may be understood to mean "the individual himself." That is why Barnes renders "My soul" by "Me."

Thus we may view Acts 2:27 as proving that hades means simply the abode of the dead, even though righteous, and thus in no way connected with fire or torment. We conclude thus also from 1 Corinthians 15:55, where the word "grave- is a translation of hades, and describes that over which the righteous are finally victorious at the resurrection. Incidentally, 1 Corinthians 15:55 is a quotation from the Old Testament (Hosea 13:14), where we find the equivalent word sheol employed. In one other text the translators of the King James Version indicated that "hell" may properly be translated by "grave." In Revelation 20:13, where "hell" is given in the text, the marginal reading is "the grave."
4.The Greek scholars who made the American Revised Version, sensing doubtless that our word "hell" has come to mean a place of fire and torment, did not use it to translate the Greek term hades. Instead, they simply transferred the Greek word hades right into the English. They use the word "hell" to translate a different Greek word, one which we will examine in a moment.
5.Moulton and Milligan, eminent Greek scholars, give this bit of information: "The word [hades] is common on tombstones in Asia Minor."-The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, under "Hades."
We need hardly remark that the bereaved in Greek-speaking Asia Minor would surely not use the word hades on tombstones if it meant what English-speaking people mean by the word "hell." *
3. Twelve times from Gehenna (or, as it is sometimes transliterated, Geenna). This is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem "used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up.” (See Liddell and Scott's Greek Lexicon.) Thus Gehenna is the only one of those words translated "hell" in the Bible, that has any idea of fire or torment resident in it.

Now in connection with the twelve times Gehenna is used two facts stand out:
1.The "body" as well as the soul is said to be "cast into hell." Twice is the phrase used, "the whole body." (See Matt. 5:29, 30; 10:28.)
2.In not one of the twelve instances does the text tell when the wicked will be "cast into bell." The fiery judgment is simply described as a future event. This takes the whole point out of the objection before us.
However, these two facts contain evidence that this future event does not follow immediately after death. The "whole body is not cast into the flames at death, and there is no suggestion in the texts that the "soul" is cast in at one time and the "body" at another. The immortal-soul doctrine, by defining "soul" as the real man and the body as but a fleshly prison house, really asks us to believe that the real man goes immediately at death to hellfire, and then at some distant future date God raises the body, which has turned to dust, and consigns it to the fires. We avoid such an irrational and un-Scriptural conclusion by understanding the phrase "soul and body" to mean the whole person, viewed physically and mentally in his entirety, “the whole body." But when are persons cast bodily into the judgment fires? At the last great judgment day, when the wicked dead who have been raised, and who have been judged guilty, are "cast into the lake of fire." (See Rev. 20:11-15.)
* The only place in the Bible where fire or torment is coupled with hades is in Luke 16:23. This is in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which we have already examined. It is an accepted rule in theology that doctrines should not be based upon parables. It is even ore questionable to attempt to discover the real meaning of a word by the setting in which it is placed in a parable or allegory. Note that the wicked are here said to be "cast into" the fire, as though to describe the act of hurling an object into the flames. Note, further, the interesting fact, which is surely more than a mere coincidence in words, that the very same word "cast" (even in the original Greek) is repeatedly used in the various Gehenna texts. In no less than six of these texts we read, "Cast into hell [Gehenna]." (See also Matt. 25:31, 41, as to the time when the wicked are consigned to the judgment flames.)

From all the foregoing we reach the conclusion that the Bible does not support the idea that the wicked go at death into the flames of hell, but that the day when the impenitent objects of God's wrath are "cast into Gehenna" is still in the future.

Answers to Objections, Francis D. Nichol, pp. 182 - 184'

http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/angels-cast-down-to-hell.aspx

From this explanation, it seems that they feel Peter is clearly talking about 'Angels cast down' or fallen angels.

Yes you are right Brother Rick, Gehenna is in the future for those who reject Christ; at the Second Resurrection.

But this reality begs the question; If Jesus suffered everything for us that we would have to suffer if we did not accept Him, then when did Jesus go into hell as we would have to?

He paid that penalty so He had to suffer it, so where was it that Jesus descended into hell as the apostles creed states?

"In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ suffered in man’s stead, and the human nature of the Son of God staggered under the terrible horror of the guilt of sin, until from His pale and quivering lips was forced the agonizing cry, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”.... Human nature would then and there have died under the horror of the sense of sin, had not an angel from heaven strengthened Him to bear the agony.... Christ was suffering the death that was pronounced upon the transgressors of God’s law. {AG 168.2}

Jesus literally entered into hell for us in Gethsemane. This begins the three days and three nights of his descent into hell for us. This is the Sign of Jonah and it is VERY IMPORTANT!!!

See more here; The Red Heifers Bloody Sweat

James that's a stretch and you’ve added to scriptures. The text refers to Christ only being put to death and quickened by the Spirit and it is the basis of that proclamation which the essence of it is further expanded in v.22.


I have checked all occurrences in the NT using the word prison(phulake, "a guarding or (concretely, guard), the act, the person; figuratively, the place"). None is related to bondage of sin.

In the law of Moses and in the Lord’s prayer, sin is equated to a debt. In the Kingdom of G-d as establish with Israel, when a person owed a debt(sin or a poor stewardship), he was sold as a slave. He was not put into prison, he had to be auctioned off for what he owed(Ex 22:3). The person(employer) buying his debt became the redeemer. So he acquired a worker that he put to work and with time his debt would be paid off or till the Jubilee whichever came first. The concept that you are making that when we’re in sin we are in prison or prisoners is not biblical and cannot be supported in the NT or in the Law of Moses.

It is true that the Bible teach that we are slaves(bond servants) either to sin or to the Lord. Our concept of imprisonment is not the same as the concept of being a slave. And then our concept of slavery is not the same as the Lord’s concept. The Lord did say that he has put in prison (once referred as Tartarus or abyss) the fallen angels aka spirits. However we also know that these spirits still are able to influence man despite they are in that prison. I haven’t studied this indebt, but as many concepts and words, the real definition of this need to be found through scriptures.


I recommend that you get better grounded by studying the Laws of Moses(Torah) where the foundation of all truth is found instead of studying the teachings of men.

Nice try in attempting to vindicate your friend, Doug Batchelor, Point #3. You fell short from what scripture teaches as Doug too. Too bad that supporting a denomination comes in conflict of following the Lord. I like Doug, but this study of his shows who he serves.

James, there’s still his first two points that needs clearing – care to address them?

Oh really? Then why when you look up 1 Peter 3 in the bible commentary it says this...

(1 Peter 3:18-21). God Preached Through Methuselah, Noah, and Others—God granted them one hundred and twenty years of probation, and during that time preached to them through Methuselah, Noah, and many others of His servants. Had they listened to the testimony of these faithful witnesses, had they repented and returned to their loyalty, God would not have destroyed them (The Review and Herald, April 23, 1901). {1BC 1088.4}

"God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was building, the voices of Noah, Methuselah, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty, and every blow struck on the ark was a warning message (The Review and Herald, September 19, 1907). {1BC 1088.6}

1 Peter 3:18

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed[d] to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Sorry Elle but you're wrong again and you keep saying its' me that is wrong. I did not add anything to scripture.

When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and after He went to be tempted and came out victorious He went into the synagogue and quoted Isaiah saying...

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. Luke 4:18

The Holy Spirit was given EXPRESSLY because he was sent to set the captives free from the prison house of death that is ever before us.

"Thus the Saviour ended His instruction. In the name of Christ the chosen twelve went out, as He had gone, “to preach the gospel to the poor, ... to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.” Luke 4:18, 19. {DA 358.1}



Jesus had to teach the people while they are still alive because the dead know not anything, He did this by sending Methuselah and Noah to warn the world before the flood and this is the whole point of the text in context with the next verse.



You both believe Jesus went into Tartarus to teach the gospel to fallen angels? So you are saying that Jesus went to the fallen angels to teach them the gospel? When the angels fell from heaven that was it, there was no coming back so why would Jesus try to teach them anything?

Show me this in the Spirit of Prophecy.

Both you and Rick have made statements completely at odds with our faith.

It sounds like you are looking for Ellen White's interpretation of the passages in Peter. Let's look a little at that. I really do have an affinity for viewing things in table form, so pardon me as I post more HTML (which you may not wish to quote in your post(s)).

Ellen White's Remarks on the "Spirits in Prison" Passage
Reference	Text	EGW Comments
1 Peter 3:18-20	For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.	Like the angels, the dwellers in Eden had been placed upon probation; their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1} In consequence of Adam's transgression, sin was introduced into the fair world that God had created, and men and women became more and still more bold in disobeying His law. The Lord looked down upon the impenitent world, and decided that He must give transgressors an exhibition of His power. He caused Noah to know His purpose, and instructed him to warn the people while building an ark in which the obedient could find shelter until God's indignation was overpast. For one hundred and twenty years Noah proclaimed the message of warning to the antediluvian world; but only a few repented. Some of the carpenters he employed in building the ark, believed the message, but died before the flood; others of Noah's converts backslid. The righteous on the earth were but few, and only eight lived to enter the ark. These were Noah and his family. {FE 504.2} It was not Christ's mission to exalt himself as an astrologer. His work was with sinful human beings, whom he came to save from hopeless woe and misery. The angel that foretold his birth declared, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." And more than six hundred years before, he himself had declared: "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness." This was his mission. {YI, March 21, 1901 par. 6}

GC,

I went over my study with my 'wise counsel of theologians' from church, and they felt the reading did not lend itself to 'lost souls' but felt that 'fallen angels' also has some issues that need to be studied. I see that the commentary has 'and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;', and I think you can quess my next question. Were the fallen angels 'bound'?

Rick

James, I have a question. If you were "privileged to ‘watch’ what Jesus experienced in the Garden as a sign that His Spirit is come to cleans His church." Then why not the rest.

The rest of what?

If you mean the rest of the world...

Just as in the days of Christ, the church first needed to be cleansed in truth so the Spirit could come and the message could be proclaimed unadulterated, so shall it be for the last days.

We are in the time of the shaking, cleansing, purification, sanctification of the Adventist church, and everything that can be shaken out WILL be shaken out of the church.

For 10 days after the ascension of Christ to heaven the disciples waited for the promise in the upper room, and they searched scriptures and talked daily about the wonders of Christ, and on the 50th day since His death, when they had all come into one accord in present truth, they realized that they were missing one of the apostles because the number of the 12 tribes, so they cast lots to find out who should be the next apostle and as soon as the number was complete (like the 144,000) then the Holy Spirit was poured out in perfect truth and they began to proclaim the message with a loud cry.

Just as the disciples received the Early Rain and were the instruments for God to proclaim the truth loudly and in power leading thousands to repent and be baptized in one day, so shall it be when the 144,000 are prepared to receive the Latter Rain. The whole world will hear their cry empowered by God.

The amazing thing about the 120 in the Upper Room's discovery is that it was foreordained by prophetic utterance from the mouth of God that these disciples would be on Mt Zion at the exact moment that Jesus was being ordained as High Priest in heaven. The prophecy is very veiled but here it is, in one of the shortest psalms, 133.

Psalms 133:1

Behold, how good and pleasant it is
when brothers dwell in unity!
2 It is like the precious oil on the head,
running down on the beard,
on the beard of Aaron,
running down on the collar of his robes!
3 It is like the dew of Hermon,
which falls on the mountains of Zion!
For there the Lord has commanded the blessing,
life forevermore.

This prophecy was fulfilled at the exact time of the anointing of the High Priestly ministry of Jesus in heaven and the oil flowed down His beard and landed on the heads of those waiting for the promise on Mt Zion in the Upper Room.

Are you all coming to the upper room? There is lots of space.

I would love to hear more of what you have to say on this matter brother. You are right on in this one.

Peace.

I can only say in a spirit of christian love and brotherhood, that your character issues and manner of response to others and some of your blog claims, negate your message. You must take that spirit of self before God and pray for Him to help and allow the Holy Spirit to assist on this issue and transform and change what is being shown to others in manner and form in what you post.

No, you are misrepresenting my beliefs. I have presented a study on scripture not a private intrepretation, and given the context and applicable verses, and seeking to understand what God has put in His word, have taken it to my brothers and sisters of the faith, and have asked for their input and of the testimonies given to us to rightly divide the word of truth. All according to what we should do when we seek to study and understand Gods Word.

2 Timothy 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Peter 1:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Rick Aren't you going to address the question brother?

You said; "James, I have a question. If you were "privileged to ‘watch’ what Jesus experienced in the Garden as a sign that His Spirit is come to cleans His church." Then why not the rest."

And I asked "The rest of what?"

Then instead of answering the question you got defensive for being called out in the same way you yourself have taken me on in the past then you cry foul? It is OK to defend the truth in righteousness as long as you have the truth to back you up.

Show yourself approved and rightly divide the word of truth.

And on that note, show me in scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy where it says Jesus went and pleaded with demons in Tartarus, then I will believe you, I promise.

I'll even help you to prove my sincerity...

The closest thing I can find in the Spirit of Prophecy to support your theory is after Lucifer's fall, while he is stuck in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he asked a passing angel to set up a meeting with Jesus and he asked Jesus to forgive him, but it does not say Jesus went looking for him it was the other way around... Here it is; From the Spirit of Prophecy...

"Satan trembled as he viewed his work. He was alone in meditation upon the past, the present, and his future plans. His mighty frame shook as with a tempest. An angel from heaven was passing. He (Satan) called him, and entreated an interview with Christ. This was granted him. He then related to the Son of God that he repented of his rebellion, and wished again the favor of God. He was willing to take the place God had previously assigned him, and be under his wise command. Christ wept at Satan’s woe, but told him, as the mind of God, that he could never be received into heaven.... The seeds of rebellion were still within him.... {TA 46.3}
When Satan became fully convinced that there was no possibility of his being reinstated in the favor of God, he manifested his malice with increased hatred and fiery vehemence.... {TA 47.1}
As he could not gain admission within the gates of heaven, he would wait just at the entrance, to taunt the angels and seek contention with them as they went in and out.—The Spirit of Prophecy 1:28-30. {TA 47.2}

So Satan was pleading with Jesus, not the other way around, so who do you think would inspire you to tell it differently?

There is but one "biblical" confirmation of the fallen angels being bound, and that is during the millennium as spoken of in Revelation. I think one could say they were "bound" to this earth at the time of the Flood, but here's where the situation with the fallen angels really breaks down--when did Jesus "open" their "prison" and give them liberty? When did they ever become "free of sin?" Is not Jesus' mission to preach liberty to the captives? Is one to believe that Jesus is in the business of saving the fallen angels?

Hardly. The fallen angels made their choices against God in full knowledge and understanding of God, of His law, and of their options. They knew they could choose to serve either God or their commanding angel, Lucifer/Satan. They made their choices freely, and not in ignorance.

By contrast, humans have been deceived. Eve and Adam were both tricked into sin through Satan's lies and suggestions. While they were certainly disobedient, and were not completely ignorant of what they were doing, they did not have full knowledge of the facts. Eve did not know she was talking to Satan. Adam did not know what would happen to him without Eve. They were deceived. Their captivity to sin is what Jesus came to break. Jesus came, in fact, to put an end to the Originator of sin. Genesis 3:15 prophesies this.

Jesus wishes to release the bonds of sin from its captives and to set them free. Does this apply to fallen angels? No. Jesus has already done all He could for them. They needed no atonement. It is we humans who needed His sacrificial atonement to be repatriated to His kingdom. All of this points strongly to the "lost souls" being "us" and/or the antediluvians.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

James take the time to read what people already posted before saying things.

You mis-represented my belief too. This is what I said in my first post in this discussion :

You should know, death and resurrection of Christ......

Thanks GC for that. I quess I have some studying to do, learning some more Hebrew and Greek to see if I can get a better grasp and go over with my theologians and see what we find, and report back here from there. Thanks everyone for your input and sources.

Rick
God Bless

Not much else to say. People are preached to with the hope of them changing. Those in Noah's day can only be those who had the hope and opportunity to be saved. It wasn't evil angels who already and permanently made their choice, it wasn't angels or martians having sex with humans, it wasn't already dead people, it was those who could make a choice. While some may have been saved but died before the flood, only 8 got on the boat. And one may question if they were "saved" or only felt pressured to join the family. Still, for 120 years, they could have made the proper choice. But most died in their prison of sin.

I should know eh Rick? So your mocking the gift God gave me? I only know what my Lord taught me and what my Lord is trying to get me to forget including everyone who has done me wrong in the church. I am told to forgive them and to let my Father deal with them.

All I can say, is we have seen what you have, and your manner you treat others, and the type of language you use, and the fruit and spirit you show others, and I am sorry James but its clearly not from God. You need to go to God and ask that he send His Holy Spirit to transform you into a true servant of God with all the fruits of the Spirit to share with others.


Galatians 5:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

GC, your rebutting a mis-understanding of the word Kerusso--to herald. That word is mis -translated in the KJV as “preaching”. Jesus resurrection was a proclamation that went all over the earth especially to the spirits(fallen angels) in prison so to let them know that Jesus was victorious over sin and the Father declared Him King of kings over all, including them(the fallen angels) as Peter clearly concluded the text with 1 Peter 3:22 “Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him..

I see that you and James and maybe Doug that push the same interpretation is a product of a mis-understanding the text. You guys needs to be careful not to say things or stretch things, or add things that is not written in the text so to prove your point. That’s what I didn’t appreciate about Doug’s study for he should of known better to twist texts taking things out of context to drive his interpretation. I was surprise to see that. I thought he was more honest than that in his studies. That was quite disappointing, yet not surprise as many will do this to secure their paycheck and pension.

Jesus did not go preach to any angels in prisons. I never said that nor did I read Rick saying that. So your point above is mute. Jesus resurrection was a proclamation that the angels saw and heard.

In the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, after being cast out of Eden...

"Satan trembled as he viewed his work. He was alone in meditation upon the past, the present, and his future plans. His mighty frame shook as with a tempest. An angel from heaven was passing. He (Satan) called him, and entreated an interview with Christ. This was granted him. He then related to the Son of God that he repented of his rebellion, and wished again the favor of God. He was willing to take the place God had previously assigned him, and be under his wise command. Christ wept at Satan’s woe, but told him, as the mind of God, that he could never be received into heaven.... The seeds of rebellion were still within him.... {TA 46.3}
When Satan became fully convinced that there was no possibility of his being reinstated in the favor of God, he manifested his malice with increased hatred and fiery vehemence.... {TA 47.1}
As he could not gain admission within the gates of heaven, he would wait just at the entrance, to taunt the angels and seek contention with them as they went in and out.—The Spirit of Prophecy 1:28-30. {TA 47.2}

So Satan was pleading with Jesus, not the other way around, so who do you think would inspire you to tell it differently?

I had engaged in this type of study here over 2 years ago with CG, dedication, and Kland. My understanding didn't change and I still believed that the "sons of God" were the fallen angels that Jude 1:6 refers to and the correspondant text of the "sons of God" being angels in Job.

Also I had quoted the Tenakh who had translated Gen 6:1-2 as such "When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, the divine beings saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and took wives from among those that pleased them."

This year I've read, chewed, and studied some more and chewed more on the subject. What's fascinating is I've been reading some new agers blogs and at times a forum because of the alternative geo-political news they were posting. I've read some of their beliefs by which I discovered that they are widely split in many differents "groups" and have a vast range of belief system too. But what was uniform is they all believed in UFOs (or Extra-terrestial being) and believe these "aliens" are angels. Also, I've read some good post explaining the different "dragons" groups and they believe also that they are descendants of some crosses with angels. Also, the luciferian (or cabals, or illuminaty group) often called "reptalians" by the new-age groups believe they are descents from the "evil" angels whereas they are descendants of "good" angels. Basically they all believe that at the beginning there was a cross-breeding between the angels and man which they refer also as Nephilim. They all take great pride to have some blood of the Nephilim. Also anciently the Royal families claims to been descendants of these angels which gives them the authority to rule on earth over other ordinary people.

Now that's quite interesting and it does give some credence that the Nephilim where a cross of angels and man. However, I want my belief to come from the Bible. So let's look more closely at what the Bible says about the Nephilim.

Because I don't have the time to type a study, I will use Stephen Jones study. I have read it a few times and have looked out his references and his study does agree with mine. However, his study is more detailed. This is the best study I came across, and Stephen is quite biblical and research historical, astrological records, ethymology of words, and etc... He checks whatever sources is available.

This is 3 studies. The one below is a general study of Gen 6. The other two study, posted seperatly, are about the Nephilim refered in the book of Deuteronomy with some history, Mt. Hebron, and other sources.

Part 1 : General Study of Genesis 6
Who Were the Angels that Sinned?
The angels that sinned back in Genesis 6:2-4 were called “sons of God” in contrast to the “daughters of men.” This term, “sons of God” refers to spiritual beings that have access to the heavens—in contrast to earth-bound fleshly creatures. Thus we see the “sons of God” standing before God in Job 1:6. In the New Testament the term is used to describe men and women who can “become the sons of God” (John 1:12) through Jesus Christ.

Genesis 6:2 also says that these sons of God took “the daughters of men” as wives and produced children by them. The Hebrew word for “men” is awdawm, or Adam, which is the usual word for men or mankind. When the Bible refers to the man Adam himself, it says ha-awdawm, or “the (man) Adam.” The article “the” makes the term specific. Dr. Bullinger points out in The Companion Bible, Appendix 14,
“Adam, without the article, denotes man or mankind in general (Gen. 1:26; 2:5; 5:1). With the article, it denotes the man, Adam....”

With this in mind, let us read Genesis 6:1, 2,
1 Now it came about, when Adam [ha-awdawm] began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them [Adam and Eve, Gen. 1:27; 5:2] 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of Adam [ha-awdawm] were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Adam and Eve had both sons and daughters. Adam’s daughters were beautiful, and these angels took them as wives. Verse 4 says that they had children by them. Ultimately, the earth was so corrupted by this genetic mixture that God sent the flood to destroy them. Only Noah was found to be “perfect in his genealogy” (Gen. 6:9, literal).

The question immediately arises: How can spiritual beings (angels) have children with physical women on earth? The answer is that all through the Bible we have examples of angels manifesting as men. In Genesis 18 we read that three “men” came to Abraham on their way to Sodom. Abraham fed them, and they prophesied that Sarah would have a child in the following year.

Two of them then continued toward Sodom, but one of the “men” stayed behind to tell Abraham of Sodom’s coming destruction.
Hence we read in Genesis 19:1 that only two of them actually arrived in Sodom:

1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. . .

They had manifested themselves in human flesh and were recognized as such even by the people of Sodom, as the story shows. They even ate with Lot (Gen. 19:3) as they had eaten with Abraham.

Angels are said to often appear in human flesh. Other examples include the angel that appeared to Balaam in Numbers 22:31 and another to Manoah and his wife in Judges 13. If spirits have the ability to manifest in human flesh, and if they can even eat food, then it follows that they could also have the ability to have sexual relations with women and even to produce children by them. Of course, they only had this ability after taking human flesh.

These angels (or perhaps their offspring) were called Nephilim, or “giants” in Genesis 6:4. This is the plural form of nephil, “a feller,” or one who cuts others down; hence, a bully or tyrant. The root word is naphal, “to fall.” This is probably the origin of the idea of “fallen” angels. Though Nephilim applies primarily to their actions in cutting down others, it carries this secondary meaning of having been felled by God in the flood.

The angels are thus “fallen,” but this is not to enter into the debate about whether or not angels have free will. That is a separate question. If angels do have free will, then they fell of their own free will. If not, then they were caused to fall for purposes known fully by God alone. We must limit our scope for now to the simple assertion that they are “fallen.” The nature of their “fall” in the sense of their disobedience is given in Jude 6,

6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

In other words, these angels desired to become flesh and dwell with the daughters of Adam. Why? Because angels are spirits, and they have the ability to manifest in flesh, but what they did not have was a soul. Nowhere in the Bible do we find that angels were given souls. The soul is in the blood, Leviticus 17:11 tells us. Angels do not have blood. They coveted a soul in order to gain authority over the earth, for God made man a living soul (Gen. 2:7) and gave man dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26). In that sense, angels “fell” from heaven to earth—but then fell from earth to Tartarus.

Jude then relates the fallen angels to Sodom and Gomorrah, where the people “indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh” (Jude 7). The term “strange flesh” simply means foreign flesh—that is, in the Biblical sense, forbidden sexual relations or marriages. The angels were not allowed to marry the daughters of men, even as the men of Sodom were not allowed to marry other men in homosexual unions. This is, of course, one of the major social and moral issues facing us today. In the name of liberty we are once again going the way of Sodom.

Another intriguing question is the fact that Jesus said the last days would be “as in the days of Noah” (Matt. 24:37). We know that there were Nephilim even AFTER the flood, for Genesis 6:4 says,

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

So we see that even after God brought correction by means of the flood, there were Nephilim who again took the daughters of men and had more children by them. The Nephilim’s children thereafter usually were called Gibbor, “mighty men,” and Rephaim, from rapha, “to heal, invigorate.” The twelve spies in Israel saw these Nephilim when they spied out the land, and this is what made the people most afraid to enter the land at that time. We read of this in Numbers 13:32, 33,

32 So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the men whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33 There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Gibbor); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.

This verse equates the Nephilim with the Gibbor. Joshua destroyed most of the Anakim in Joshua 11:21, 22,

21 Then Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab and from all the hill country of Judah and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities. 22 There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained.

Some yet remained until the time of David. Goliath of Gath came from this family of Anak, where some of these giants remained. David slew Goliath, and in a later battle Goliath’s brother was killed along with their sons (1 Chron. 20:5-8).

Beware of Giants
Deuteronomy 2:10-13 is a parenthetical notation that probably was not part of Moses' speech.
10 (The Emim lived there formerly, a people as great, numerous, and tall as the Anakim. 11 Like the Anakim, they are also regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim. 12 The Horites formerly lived in Seir, but the sons of Esau dispossessed them and destroyed them from before them and settled in their place, just as Israel did to the land of their possession which the Lord gave to them.)

This short historical explanation appears to have been inserted by Ezra in his inspired canonization of the Old Testament. Ferrar Fenton says this in his notes:
Vv. 10 to 13 are an ancient editor's note, not a part of the text of Moses. It was probably added by Ezra, when he edited the Pentateuch, after the return from Babylon, as all the other notes which I consequently transfer to the foot of the pages.

Even if this is so, there is no reason why Ezra's notation is less “inspired” than the rest of Moses' speech. Ezra was simply explaining how the Moabites came to dispossess the Emim and take their territory as an inheritance. Verse 12 continues by telling us how the Edomites dispossessed the Horites living in Mount Seir. I consider this to be a divinely inspired supplement to give some background to Moses' account.

Origin of the Giants
So who were the Emim? Ezra implies that they were giants like the Anakim. In Num. 13:33 the twelve spies reported seeing the sons of Anak (or Anakim) in the land of Canaan. Their progenitor, Anak himself, was the son of Arba, who founded and settled the town of Hebron. Hebron's original name was Kirjeath Arba (Joshua 15:13), which may be translated “City of Arba.” Later, Caleb and his men drove them out and inherited their land (Joshua 14:13; 15:14).

The Emim were another family of giants who lived east of the Dead Sea until they were displaced by the Moabites. Ezra says in verse 11, “like the Anakim, they are also regarded as Rephaim.” Who were the Rephaim? The KJV translates it as “giants.”

Rephaim is the plural of Rapha, which means “healer; mender” in the sense of stitching together. Originally, the word had reference to the “sons of God” cohabiting with the “daughters of men” in Genesis 6:4. In other words, two different types of beings were stitched together in unlawful marriages, which produced giants in the earth.

The term “sons of God” has various meanings, but in this case it means angels. That term, too, can have a variety of meanings, but we leave that to the opinion of the reader.
These giants are known by various other names, such as Nephilim, which means “fallen ones.” (The singular form is naphal, “to fall.”) Hence, there arose a very ancient belief about angels who fell. Genesis 6:4 calls them Gibbor, “mighty men.” Scripture tells us that these giants lived prior to Noah's flood, and that the purpose of the flood was to destroy them, because they had corrupted the genetics of mankind, except for Noah and his family (Gen. 6:9).

Genesis 6:2 speaks of these unlawful unions prior to the flood. Genesis 6:4 also tells us that this same genetic corruption occurred again after the flood.

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days [prior to the flood], and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men [Gibbor] who were of old, men of renown.

There were, then, at least two occasions when this sin occurred—one prior to the flood, and later after the flood. This was why the Nephilim were yet living in the days of Moses and Joshua.

Centuries later, we find Goliath and his three brothers living in Gath, a city of the Philistines. All were “giants” (Heb. Rephaim), and they were all killed by David and his mighty men (2 Sam. 21:22).

The Emim
Returning to our topic in Deut. 2:10-12, we are told that the Moabites called these giants Emim. What does that name mean? The Wikipedia has only a short article about them:

The Emim; Hebrew: ??????) was the Moabite name for one of the tribes of Rephaim. They are described in Deuteronomy chapter 2 as having been a powerful people, populous and having a successful kingdom. They were defeated by the Moabites, who occupied their land. The Emim are also mentioned in Genesis 14:5 and according to Rashi, the name is translated as “the dreaded ones” (Hertz 1936) and the singular Ema/Emma (Hebrew: ????) means “horror” or “terror”.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emim)

So we see that the Emim were terrorists. This is of interest to us today, because world attention has been focused increasingly upon the problem of terrorism in recent decades. When we apply this factor to the present day, we can view Moab and the Emim as overlaying each other in prophecy, because the land of Moab was also the land of the Emim.

In other words, the time of Moab’s immorality in the Church coincides with the rise of terrorism. Both arose in the early 1960’s.

The Emim were largely destroyed by the coalition of Babylonian kings in Genesis 14, when also Sodom and Gomorrah were captured (along with Lot, Abraham's nephew). Abraham and his 318 men chased these kings to Hobah, near Damascus, and defeated them. Lot was set free along with the other captives, but just 24 years later God Himself destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

At that time, Lot's daughters bore children by their own father, and one of them, Moab, later grew up, got married, had children, and moved east to settle the land where the Emim had lived previously. In other words, God used the Babylonians to wipe out the “terrorists,” clearing the way for the Moabites to inhabit their land.

This story applies to us today in the prophetic sequence of events. In 1948 we began our detour around Edom. This was followed by the rise of immorality as we encountered Moab in the sexual revolution in the 1960’s. Rising simultaneously with immorality was the rise of terrorism as a method of war.

Deut. 2:12 tells us that “the Horites formerly lived in Seir.” (See also Gen. 14:6.) Scripture does not tell us how Esau came to dispossess the Horites in the land of Seir, but we find Esau living in Seir when Jacob returned home after living with Laban for 20 years. Recall that Esau met Jacob on the return trip, when Jacob sent word to his brother as a gesture of reconciliation. Gen. 32:3 says,

3 Then Jacob sent messengers before him to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, the country of Edom.

After the brothers had reconciled, Esau returned to Seir (Gen. 33:16), where he obviously had settled during the time Jacob was with Laban. The book of Jasher 30:26 tells us the reason. Esau's flocks and herds were too great, and his herdsmen were disputing with the Canaanites. So Esau moved permanently to Seir, being allied with the Horites.

Isaac died 23 years later, and according to Jasher 47, his estate (wealth) was taken by Esau in exchange for the land of Canaan, which was given to Jacob. We are also told in Jasher 57 that after the death of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Esau had a falling out with the Horites. The Horites asked them to leave their territory, at which time, the sons of Esau wiped out the Horites and took Mount Seir for themselves as their inheritance (57:36).

Since the Bible does not record the circumstances by which Edom came to possess Mount Seir, we must rely upon the book of Jasher for that information.

The next section is the study of Og of Bashan who was a giant/rephaim that the Lord brought Israel to destroy him and his kingdom. Now take note, these wars was done before they enter the promise land. Because prophesies are cyclic, the Lord will repeat this history -- we are to engaged in the same type of wars against the giants before the 2nd coming.

Og of Bashan

The defeat of Sihon gave Israel the land of Gilead, which was the mountains overlooking the Jordan River from the east. Its southern border was the Arnon River, where Moab's territory began. Its northern border was Bashan, now known as the Golan Heights, not far from Damascus.

The king of Bashan was the next king to feel threatened. Not knowing the law of God, he assumed that Israel would attack Bashan without cause, so he launched a preemptive strike. Deut. 3:1-4 says,

1 Then we turned and went up the road to Bashan, and Og, king of Bashan, with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 But the Lord said to me, “Do not fear him, for I have delivered him and all his people and his land into your hand; and you shall do to him just as you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who lived at Heshbon.” 3 So the Lord our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. 4 And we captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.

God's purpose in causing Og of Bashan to make war on Israel was to destroy the giants (Rephaim). Deut. 3:11 appears to be another notation from Ezra, telling us,

11 (For only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bedstead was an iron bedstead; it is in Rabbah of the sons of Ammon. Its length was nine cubits and its width four cubits by ordinary cubit.

Ferrar Fenton translates this verse:
11 Og, king of Bashan was of the remnant of the race of the Rephaim. He can be seen lying upon a couch of iron which is preserved in Rabath of the Ammonites. Its length is nine cubits, and breadth four cubits, by the common cubit.

Fenton believed that this was a notation from Ezra, who was telling his readers that the embalmed body of Og had been placed in an Ammonite memorial, a museum or shrine of sorts). It could still be visited in his day after the Babylonian captivity of Judah. He lay on a bed that was nine common cubits, or about 13½ feet long.

If this bed had been measured in sacred cubits, called the “cubit of the sanctuary,” or the “great cubit,” it would have been an extra handbreadth in length (Ezekiel 43:13). In that case, the bed would have measured about 15 feet in length. Yet Ezra is careful to give us the precise measure in common cubits. The length of the bed suggests that Og of Bashan was 10 or 11 feet tall.

Canaan and the surrounding areas seemed to be full of Rephaim, Nephilim, Anakim, and other descendants of the unlawful marriages of Genesis 6:4. Because God vowed not to destroy them by flood, He used Israel to bring judgment upon them. Even so, some escaped divine judgment, including the family of Goliath who remained among the Philistines even centuries later.

So Israel destroyed their main cities, sixty of them. These did not include the small towns, for Deut. 3:5 says,

5 All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates, and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns.

In other words, there was a large population, and the record implies that they had intermarried with the Rephaim for many centuries. Hence, it is likely that virtually all of them by this time could trace some descent from these Rephaim.

Joshua 13:12 calls Og “the last of the Rephaites,” (NIV), but this does not mean that last of the giants, for there were other giant tribes, such as the Anakim, the tribe of Goliath. For some reason, all or many of these tribes seemed to live in the general vicinity of Mount Hermon.

The reason for this will be explained in the next chapter.
Perhaps the giants were aware that this land had an important role in the divine plan and that the Messiah would eventually be born there. Their occupation of Canaan may have been an attempt to thwart the divine plan.

6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. 7 But all the animals and the spoil of the cities we took as our booty.

Apparently, they had not learned to do genetic modifications on animals, and so they were given to the Israelites.
8 Thus we took the land at that time from the hand of the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, from the valley of Arnon to Mount Hermon.

This largely completed the conquest of the land east of the Jordan River. Ezra then inserts a short parenthetical statement that gives us a very important clue as to the importance of Mount Hermon in prophecy.

Dedication was on track. The thing Rick is doing here is trying to parallel directly a passage that is not directly connected to the earlier one. Does Peter speak of angels in 2 Peter 2? Yes. Does he speak of angels in 1 Peter 3:18-20? We find there no mention of the word.

Furthermore, what does "angel" mean? (Check your Greek and Hebrew.)

Elle has a special fascination for the topics of "nephilim" and "fallen angels," and has much to say on them. But the Bible has a different focus. We are instructed not to parley with the devil and to focus on things which are "of good report." While it is right to recognize truth and to distinguish error from it, it is wise to focus on Jesus and to ignore the rest. If the devil can take our focus off of Christ, he has us. At least for the moment.

Jesus is preaching/proclaiming to us His good news. His sacrifice on the cross still preaches to us. It has preached, via the animal sacrifices typifying the Lamb's own sacrifice, the message of salvation all the way back to the gates of the Garden of Eden. Through Noah, the Good News was preached to all of the lost souls of his day. The antediluvians were too bound up in their sins and in their willful ignorance and pride to listen to Noah's preaching. Their deaths in the Flood were avoidable and inexcusable, yet by their own refusal of Christ's message of salvation, they selected their fate. In every age, including our own, Christ and His sacrifice in our place is preached. It remains with us to accept it or to reject it.

That is the message of Peter.

In 2 Peter 2, when Peter refers to the angels, then to the antediluvians, he is bringing out the message that God who did not spare them but brought about judgment upon them will also of a certain not spare us if we willfully reject His merciful offer. Peter's point is that God has shown us by example already what to expect if we continue in disobedience.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, take a look at the following which I came across from a Adventist on one of the sites and tell me what you think:


'The secret of the successful Christian life is found in the first few verses of John chapter 15 about the story of the branch and the vine. We are to abide in Christ just as the branch abides in the vine. When the branch is separated from the vine it eventually dies. So when we separate from Christ we eventually die. We are to abide constantly in Christ because He said that without Him we can do nothing. Now with that said thanks for your interest in His word. Let’s look at the passage in Ephesians first. I’ll copy it below: Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
This passage simply put is just talking about Christ’s incarnation (when He came to this earth born of Mary), His resurrection (rising from the dead) and his ascension (returning back to heaven). Verse 10 states that the One who descended is the same One who ascended to heaven. This is Christ. Verse 8 states that when He ascended or went back to heaven he “led captivity captive” and “gave gifts to men.” The gifts that He gave to men you can read about in verse 11 which include “and He gave some apostles, some prophets, some pastors, some teachers…” But how did He “lead captivity, captive?” This is a quote from Psalms 68:18 which you can also read. He led captivity, captive by freeing a special group from the grave. This special resurrection was accomplished at the resurrection of Christ. These represented the “first fruits” a term you might remember from the Old Testament. The first fruits were a special dedication to God of the first harvest which signified a greater harvest to come. In Matthew 27:52, 53 it states that at Christ’s death an earthquake opened many of the graves and that at Christ’s resurrection many of these saints rose from the dead, went into the city and then ascended with Christ. These were the captives that were set free. Notice that many verses such as Luke 4:18 (to preach deliverance to the captives) and Isaiah 61:1(The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me… to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound…) associate being bound and captive and in the prison house as being under the influence of sin or death. So when Christ arose from the dead and 40 days later went to heaven He took with him the “first fruits” in this special resurrection as a token of the greater harvest to come when all the righteous dead are raised at His second coming. This is also a reference of Christ freeing the “captives” from the prison house of death. Verse 9 stating that He that ascended is He also that descended into the lower parts of the earth means the same Jesus that ascended or was raised is the same Jesus that descended into the “lower” parts of the earth, a reference to being entombed in the earth at His death.
Now for 1 Peter 3:18-20. By the way Don, who told you that the Greek word for went and gone are the same? I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, yet. But anyway let me say a few things about this passage for you to consider.
1 Peter 3:8-10: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Verse 18 is easy because it just says that Christ suffered or died once for sinful man and came back to life again. A Bible verse states that the Holy Spirit raised Christ. Now verses 19 and 20 seem a little difficult but if we look at it comparing Scripture with Scripture it is easily understood. By the way Don, always remember Isaiah 28:10 when trying to understand difficult passages. It reads “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little”. We are to compare Scripture with Scripture, a line here, a line there. But anyway, to continue we know that Jesus could not have went to preach to the spirits of the dead in prison because Scripture is abundantly clear that “the dead know nothing” and that death is an unconscious sleep. Some preachers claim that Christ went into purgatory of limbo of some other place where lost souls are gathered but again this is impossible because Scripture also tells us that when a person dies, their destiny is forever set. You don’t get a second chance after you die so it would be useless for Christ to preach to those that had died and are in the prison of death. Some preachers teach this because they don’t have a correct understanding of what happens when a person dies. So before I go off on another tangent let me stick to the meaning. Also the word "spirits" do not refer to fallen angels. Revelation states that the evil angels that followed Satan in His rebellion are bound to this earth awaiting the lake of fire. Their choice was made and can never be reversed. They are unable to repent so their destiny is forever settled so there could be no purpose in Christ preaching to them. (Hebrews states that it is impossible for those who knew the height and depth and breath of God's love and the heavenly gifts and powers of the world to come that if they fall away that it is impossible to renew them to repentance) But to continue with the verse which reads “Christ hath once suffered for sin that He might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit by which also He went and preached……” Please notice how Christ preached to those spirits in prison. He did it by the Spirit and that word (spirit) is capitalized meaning the Holy Spirit. The preaching that Christ did during the time mentioned He did through the Holy Spirit. Now with that in mind the next question is “When was the preaching done?” The answer is given in verse 20: “when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.” So the preaching was done while the ark was being built. Remember in Genesis 6:3 the verse reads “ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years”. (The ark took 120 years to build and during this time God’s Spirit was pleading with men to repent). Now for the last question. “To whom was the preaching done?” It was to the spirits in prison. This terminology as mentioned above refers to those who are bound in the prison house of sin. (Psalms 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name). What Peter is saying in these verses is that Christ through the Holy Spirit was present while Noah was building the ark to speak conviction to the antediluvian world to enter into the ark. So Don the three questions that the verse mentions are answered in the text itself. It states that He preached “by the Holy Spirit”, that He did it while the ark was being built or prepared, and that He did the preaching to the spirits (persons) whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin. If I wrote too much as I usually do I hope you don't get confused. Please read the verses again and ask the Lord to help you understand. He will do this for you because He is well pleased when we seek Him and also because He promised to give you understanding.'

I am having a hard time finding any writings or clarification from Adventist theologians or official church view on this issue, seem to be few and far between, and I find a lot of presenting of 'ideas', nothing clear cut.

Rick

Elle what are you doing? Don't you believe in the Spirit of Prophecy?

"For some time the two classes remained separate. The race of Cain, spreading from their first settlement, dispersed over the plains and valleys where the children of Seth had dwelt. The latter, in order to escape their contaminating influence, withdrew to the mountains and there maintained the worship of God in its purity. But in the lapse of time they ventured to mingle with the inhabitants of the valleys. “The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair.” The children of Seth displeased the Lord by intermarrying with them. Many of the worshipers of God were beguiled into sin by the allurements constantly before them, and they lost their holy character. Mingling with the depraved, they became like them. The restrictions of the seventh commandment were disregarded, “and they took them wives of all which they chose.” The children of Seth went “in the way of Cain.” Jude 11. They fixed their minds upon worldly prosperity and enjoyment and neglected the commandments of the Lord. Sin spread abroad in the earth. {EP 44.1}

You do understand that what you are teaching is from the pharisees don't you?

The Giants are the Nephilim of those antediluvian days and they were not from angels, they are from the righteous son's of the descendants of Adam and the descendants of the wicked son's of Adam intermarrying. The two seeds. God promised to put "enmity" between them.

If you argue against this perfect truth that is being presented before you, I fear for your salvation. Because if you can get so caught up in the false assumptions of the Hebrews then what else are you wrong on, yet argue that you are right?

This is a great lesson that you are promoting the corruption of here. Have you ever went through the torment of being in love or lust with someone who does not love God? That is what is being spoken of here. Satan took advantage of this.

There were giants in the earth in those days. Genesis 6:4. {CC 33.1} The first people upon the earth received their instructions from that infinite God who created the world. Those who received their knowledge direct from infinite wisdom were not deficient in knowledge.... {CC 33.2} There are many inventions and improvements, and labor-saving machines now that the ancients did not have. They did not need them.... {CC 33.3}
Men before the flood lived many hundreds of years, and when one hundred years old were considered but youths. Those long-lived men had sound minds in sound bodies.... They came upon the stage of action from the ages of sixty to one hundred years, about the time those who now live the longest have acted their part in their little short life time, and have passed off the stage.51 {CC 33.4} There were many giants, men of great stature and strength, renowned for wisdom, skillful in devising the most cunning and wonderful works; but their guilt in giving loose rein to iniquity was in proportion to their skill and mental ability. {CC 33.5}
God bestowed upon these antediluvians many and rich gifts; but they used His bounties to glorify themselves, and turned them into a curse by fixing their affections upon the gifts instead of the Giver. They employed the gold and silver, the precious stones and the choice wood, in the construction of habitations for themselves, and endeavored to excel one another in beautifying their dwellings with the most skillful workmanship. They sought only to gratify the desires of their own proud hearts, and reveled in scenes of pleasure and wickedness.52 {CC 33.6}
They became corrupt in their imagination, because they left God out of their plans and councils. They were wise to do what God had never told them to do, wise to do evil.... They used the probation so graciously granted them in ridiculing Noah. They caricatured him and criticized him. They laughed at him for his peculiar earnestness and intense feeling in regard to the judgments which he declared God would surely fulfill. They talked of science and of the laws controlling nature. Then they held a carnival over the words of Noah, calling him a crazy fanatic.53 {CC 33.7}

"Giants Before the Flood—At the first resurrection all come forth in immortal bloom, but at the second, the marks of the curse are visible upon all. All come up as they went down into their graves. Those who lived before the Flood, come forth with their giant-like stature, more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and well proportioned. The generations after the Flood were less in stature (Spiritual Gifts 3:84). {1BC 1090.1}

Daryl,

On another post you were questioning the validity of my comment and said she was serious. I believe you may be correct in saying she is serious. But whether I believed what I was saying or merely showing what she believed, I believe it stands to be shown again if you missed the previous time she stated such things. Need I say more?

Yes, but you have to take into account what Spirit of Prophecy says, and that Adam and all the way up to Noah were of larger/taller build, giants to our current size.

I do believe that people before the flood were larger in statue and this fact was relative to their lifespan. As the lifespan decreases, the average height of man decreased also. This is what I believe and it is not something you can prove without proper archeologist work.

Now regardless of that fact, before the flood this crossing of the "sons of God" with the "daughters of Adam" created Nephilim which were characterized as being giants. They were bigger in statue than the other people in the days before the flood.

Now, after the flood there were more crossings of the "sons of God" with the "daughters of Adam" according to Gen 6:4. We have lots of accounts in the Bible of these giants (Nephilim, Arnak, Rephaim, and Emin). Again, scriptures specifies that these men were bigger in statue than the ordinary people in those days.

The logic that the “sons of God” were Cain’s children doesn’t justify how the offsprings became giants. Cain’s genetic makeup was the same as the children of Adam’s since he was also a son of Adam.

Kland, you are at it again. The problem is not what I believe, but it is your condescending remarks and not sticking to the discussion but instead you like to belittle me. You need to try to withframe from that bad habit whatever reason you have to justify in doing this to me.

If you have something you disagree about anything I say, then bring it on with your biblical support to why you differ with some care for the other party. Isn't this the way to maintain a good brotherly discussion without reproach?

I think you meant "Seth's children", but as Adventist we have to take Spirit of Prophecy into account and also I would like to stick with King James and Strongs to keep it on standard we all can agree on.

I remember reading that the 'spirits in prison' was taken from a Christian song that was sang in the early church, and Peter put it in word for word, and thus the problems in putting it up against other verses in scripture. Have you come across that, as I cannot seem to find it in my notes.

Rick

Are you saying I'm parleying with the devil? I have brought a Bible study about the Nephilim...have you read it? Do you consider studying anything in scripture about the devil a parley with him? The Lord created evil and darkness for a reason and it is there for our growth into maturity.

To properly understand what actually happened before and after the flood is valuable for our admonition and to conquer the end times giants of our time before entering the promise land.

The Lord requires us to have an intelligent understanding of what we are up against, so to "stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth". If not then the giants will conquer us.

I understand Rick and respect your position.

Personally, I believe we are to test all things, including all of EGW's writings and our denomination doctrines.

NJK Project sent me a very good link of a sermon by a renown SDA Historian, George R. Knight, which shed light how our doctrines came into the church and EGW role and the place of her writings today. If you haven't viewed this, I recommend it.

FP782 - The Great Gulf Joseph Smith vs. Ellen White on the Relation of the Gift of Prophecy

http://betterlifetv.tv/watch_videos_now.php?ProgID=15


I don't know about it, but maybe someone else here does.

Elle,

With all due respect, I was not saying you were parleying with the devil, I was only pointing out that we are instructed not to do so as one example of de-focusing the devil. The Bible spends almost no time speaking of the devil or in glorifying his victories. Certainly the devil has had many victories on earth, but the Bible does not focus on them. Why? I believe that our focus should also not be upon the devil nor upon his strengths, his victories, etc.

You hold an unbiblical view of the Nephilim. I have not chosen to address it in this thread, because I have already addressed it with you in discussions we had many months ago. I did notice that you supported some of your views in this thread with the "Book of Jasher." That the book of Jasher is mentioned in the Bible is well-established fact. The modern day "Book of Jasher," however, was "translated" by Mormons in the 1800s. Remember, they are the ones that translated the Egyptian funeral messages into the "Book of Abraham," etc. with their "Urim and Thummim." No one really knows where they got their source manuscripts. I don't know how to say this gently, so I'll just say it: the "Book of Jasher" which we have today is a fraud. It is certainly not inspired, and I have personally found it to be in direct contradiction of the Bible in multiple places, including dates, events, and the spirit in which it is written. It is a novel which, perhaps, was hoped to bring in some money for someone. Like the Book of Mormon, it follows an old-English style of writing calculated to make the reader sense its ancient authenticity. The "Book of Jasher" reads much like the KJV, except that it has more of a "superman" comic style of recounting the events of history. If another thread does not already exist on this fraudulent book, perhaps we could create one to evaluate it objectively. In any case, it is not Scripture, it is not the same book that we find mentioned in the Bible, and anyone who puts his or her trust in it is placing confidence in quicksand.

(If an archeologist ever discovers the true book of Jasher, I'm open to seeing it and accepting it, provided that it is verified to agree with the Bible.)

More to the subject, the "nephilim" were simply those of large stature, like Adam and Eve were, and perhaps even larger. They were 100% human, and there is no such thing as a reproductive angel. Angels are not gifted with genitals, do not marry, and cannot procreate. They are not made of flesh as we are. We know this from both the Bible and from the writings of Mrs. White.

Think about it. In all of the inspired writings we have at our disposal, when have you ever heard of an "angelette" or a "baby angel?" When have we ever heard about "immature angels" or "angel families?" When have we heard about "mother angels" or "daddy angels?" We have not heard of these because they simply do not exist, nor have they ever existed.

Our planet has received a special gift. The ability to procreate, a symbol of God's own creative ability, is a gift which we have been given. "The prince of evil, though possessing all the wisdom and might of an angel fallen, has not power to create, or to give life" (EGW). "The words of Christ are too plain to be misunderstood. They should forever settle the question of marriages and births in the new earth. Neither those who shall be raised from the dead, nor those who shall be translated without seeing death, will marry or be given in marriage. They will be as the angels of God, members of the royal family." {MM 99.4}

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I have no argument about the nephilim, nor Satan's ability to create life or procreate life. BUT - as EGW said above Satan has eyes, a frame, and flesh. Also, men of old had the appearence more like angels. But we have grown weaker? Why? And how is that transmitted to our offspring? "Satan has been learning how to annoy men, and enfeeble the race." Gen_3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

What is the curse? Did God instigate it? NOPE! Why is a snake, a snake? God's design? No. Gen_3:14 And the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; on your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life: A snake is a snake because of "the curse". So why is a snake a snake? Well, and interesting paper from our "evolutionary friends". "Changes in Hox genes’ structure and function during the evolution of the squamate body plan." Nature 464:99-103. This paper is behind a paywall. So to summarize, a snake is a snake because of mobile genetic elements in the HOX genes. The HOX clusters define a body plan of an organism. Our genomes are made up with at least 50% mobile genetic elements, and a recent paper suggests over 90%. But what is interesting is the HOX clusters are almost devoid of mobile genetic element invasion. The snake is not so lucky. See one of our kind evolutionists speak about this article with pictures HERE. Gen_3:16 To the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in sorrow you shall bring forth children; It is clear from science that mammalian reproduction has been greatly altered by mobile genetic elements. How about this verse? Gen_3:17-18 And to Adam he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field; Where did the thorn and thistle come from? One example from our time, AIDS. What a "curse" to the human population. Viruses are a form of mobile genetic element. Did God create the viruses? Nope. They are the seed of Satan.

"Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? Job 41:1

Satan does not have human flesh, or testicles and you are totally whack for teaching this garbage. Satan has angelic flesh that can appear as anything he wants to us mortals, and there is nothing we can do to force his hand to manifest himself, so how can you fight or even touch him? He lives outside of our realm of contention so the fight is futile unless you have the power of the Almighty on your side. That is what Jesus is describing to Job.

In the end God permits Satan to manifest himself as the ultimate form of his own delusion and so scripture says "God sends strong delusions" just as He allowed from Pharaoh.

What Mrs White is describing in the quote you used about Satan is how God sees Satan, as he truly is, his angelic flesh aged, hanging jowls, receding hairline and his age is apparent because he has not eaten from the tree of life in over 6,000 years.

I have to agree, we must not use these types of sources, or we loose our foundation, and drift into confusion.

??? Point to me where I focused on the devil. Your side-tracking on the discussion. We were talking about the Nephilim by which Rick brought up the question. Not me. I only shared with him what I knew up to now about it.
My view on the Nephilim being offsprings of the angels that left their abode crossed with daughters of men has more biblical support then your view. The only difference between my view and your view, is your view is the view of the Church and you have lots of support.
I did not. What I quoted was the view of Stephen Jones. And his view is totally supported with the Bible. He used the book of Jasher only once and it was not to support his position of the Nephilim. Here’s the quote
From this, I see you did not read the study at all and only looked for something to discredit my view that you didn’t agree from the beginning. It’s ok to not agree with someone’s view, however, it’s not ok to pretend you read something and bring false judgment on someone. The rule of bringing any judgment on anyone, is you need to do a thorough investigation first and pray for proper discernment and give a true judgment that resonate from above. If you didn’t want to do the thorough investigation, then it's wise to reframe from saying anything.
I am aware that lots of copies of the book of Jasher is tempered with. However, there is one copy that is not and Stephen Jones and another who is SDA has examine thoroughly and it does not contradict the Bible. I have read the large part of it, and up to now I have not come across anything contradicting the Bible either, nor came across the allegation you made against it.

It is not an inspirational book like the Bible and it shouldn’t be read in that way, however, it serves as a historical source. This is the way Stephen Jones always uses that book when he seldom has to refer to it.
Your judgment is based on reading tempered books of Jasher. I have the good copy which I will provide it in the discussion you opened on the topic when I'll have time. That way everyone can read it if they want and see for themselves. Again, if you are to make a true judgment that is approve from above, the Lord expects us to do a thorough investigation. So I’ll be looking forward to read your comments of your thorough investigation of the version I got here.
You are twisting the text to say something the Bible doesn’t say and is very specific saying that the product of this crossing produced GIANTS(Nephilim) not just simply bigger people. They were much bigger than the average height of the people of those days which means they were bigger than Adam and Eve or any of their children. And after the flood, the descendants of the Nephilim where bigger than the people in their days. And the Israelites were very afraid of these giants after they spied on the land.

The logic that the “sons of God” were Seth children doesn’t justify how the offsprings became giants. Cain’s or Seth’s children genetic makeup were all the same.

BTW. the Bible is very specific and it says that the "sons of God" took the "daughters of Adam" and not the offsprings of Seth.

Maybe from EGW, but not the Bible. The Bible has recorded angels appearing as man(human flesh) multiple times.
How do you know? Have you seen an angels manifested in human flesh and checked? We know that they have eaten with Abraham and Lot. Now does angels have stomachs? How were they able to eat? And where did the food go?

We also have as Biblical source the follwoing :

Jude 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

"Jude then relates the fallen angels to Sodom and Gomorrah, where the people “indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh” (Jude 7). The term “strange flesh” simply means foreign flesh—that is, in the Biblical sense, forbidden sexual relations or marriages. The angels were not allowed to marry the daughters of men, even as the men of Sodom were not allowed to marry other men in homosexual unions"

I really meant to direct the question on the Nephilim within SOP and Scripture, as I know what direction some people have taken this, I should have been less open ended in my question. You can blame it on me........

Scriptures were always used instead of one incidence where I quote Stephen Jones which he used the book of Jasher to see why Essau came to the land of Seir. Besides that, all his references were Biblical. I always heavily use the Bible(KJV) and look up the Greek and Hebrew origin words many time to make sure we have the real original say of the text. It is true that I don't quote the SOP by which I believe EGW and James didn't want us to use her writings as authority.

You've done nothing wrong Rick and you don't need to take the blame for what has happened. There's nothing wrong with this discussion and the way it turned. That's the nature of discussions and good in dept studies; we don't know where the Lord will lead it. I have been here on this forum for 4 years and GC knows me and many others quite well. We've been in many discussion.

I appreciate the gesture though Rick.

On my first post in this discussion you said the following :

This blind eye that you refered to is a serious problem in our church. It is a product of heart idols. We all have some and Jesus works to expose them for they are very settle. If we become aware of them, then they won't be as powerful to distort scriptures and the true gospel message.

However, we are indeed a Laodicean Church in all aspects. And blindness is one of her characteristics. I have lightly address this issue in these discussions here and here.

It would need to be further address as this is making us not able to hear Jesus and even recognize His voice which makes us totally unable to follow Him.

(Here I will say that I was wrong in an earlier post, it was the Sadducees not the pharisees who taught in the days of Jesus)

In an attempt to ridicule in an uncouth way you asked how I know if Satan and angels have genitals, but you expose yourself. Jesus was adamant to refute the assertions of the Sadducees and told them they do not know scripture because they believed similar to what you are teaching and said it is evidence that they were not in Christ.

..."The Sadducees reasoned that if the body is to be composed of the same particles of matter in its immortal as in its mortal state, then when raised from the dead it must have flesh and blood, and must resume in the eternal world the life interrupted on earth. In that case they concluded that earthly relationships would be resumed, husband and wife would be reunited, marriages consummated, and all things go on the same as before death, the frailties and passions of this life being perpetuated in the life beyond. {DA 605.3}
In answer to their questions, Jesus lifted the veil from the future life. “In the resurrection,” He said, “they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” He showed that the Sadducees were wrong in their belief. Their premises were false. “Ye do err,” He added, “not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” He did not charge them, as He had charged the Pharisees, with hypocrisy, but with error of belief. {DA 605.4}
The Sadducees had flattered themselves that they of all men adhered most strictly to the Scriptures. But Jesus showed that they had not known their true meaning. That knowledge must be brought home to the heart by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Their ignorance of the Scriptures and the power of God He declared to be the cause of their confusion of faith and darkness of mind. They were seeking to bring the mysteries of God within the compass of their finite reasoning. Christ called upon them to open their minds to those sacred truths that would broaden and strengthen the understanding. Thousands become infidels because their finite minds cannot comprehend the mysteries of God. {DA 605.5}

Elle, and everyone here. I brought these verses, because Ellen White does make clear that many truths will be unveiled in the end. And this issue of 'spirits in prison' appears in many ways to go against what we as Adventist believe. So I have been trying to gain more understanding, but as you can see it can stir up quite a hornets nest. But the burden is on the student of scripture to bring up what is there, and the Greek text causes issues, and we as Adventist should never be afraid to tackle scripture and see what it tells us. I feel that much more is needed before we can see clearly what Peter was saying and how it applies, and thus I appreciate everyones input. However, I ask that everyone post and answer with good form and intent, to elevate not put down their fellowman (or woman) and call into question their beliefs and faith in God. God is glorified and pleased when we study His word, and when we do it in fellowship and love....

Rick

The reason the view that the "nephilim" cannot be descendents of fallen angels is that they are said to be descendents of the "daughters of men" (clearly speaking of humanity) and of the "sons of God" (clearly not referring to evil angels, but those who are on God's side).

If the "sons of God" refers to evil angels in any place in the Bible or in the writings of Mrs. White, I am ignorant of it and would like to be shown the statement.

This is a very simple explanation as to why the view of fallen angels mating with women is unbiblical. The Bible, as Mrs. White says, is simply too plain to be misunderstood on this point.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Originally Posted By: jsot

Satan does not have human flesh, or testicles and you are totally whack for teaching this garbage.

Who said they have human flesh? I will accept your appology.

Originally Posted By: jsot

Satan has angelic flesh that can appear as anything he wants to us mortals,

Please provide your support quotation.

Originally Posted By: jsot

He lives outside of our realm of contention so the fight is futile unless you have the power of the Almighty on your side.

if they are outside our realm as you say, then how are we even bothered by him?

Originally Posted By: jsot

In the end God permits Satan to manifest himself as the ultimate form of his own delusion and so scripture says "God sends strong delusions"

Yes, I've read some people who have strong delusions.

Originally Posted By: jsot

What Mrs White is describing in the quote you used about Satan is how God sees Satan,

Actually, I think she is describing him as SHE sees him.

Originally Posted By: jsot

.. receding hairline and his age is apparent because he has not eaten from the tree of life in over 6,000 years.

I'm sure you will have a quote that supports your claim that he was ever required to eat of the tree of life. He may have! But I know of no support for this theory. Please, provide a source. It would be good to have.

The following quote seems relevant at this point of our discussion.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL, I did not understand James to be saying you were whacked out.

Really? What is he saying? I guess I need interpretation.

APL, don't bother trying to get citations or references from JSOT; he won't provide any. The voices in his head* are all the authority he needs or will provide.

*His words, not mine.

Maybe it wasn't to you?

JAK I have supplied way more scriptural evidence as you on every subject, yet you do not concede.

APL I wasn't talking to you. Are you the one saying the Nephilim are satan's descendants?

Angels cannot have children. If you look closely at this next quote it proves that angels cannot bear children...

"The Sadducees reasoned that if the body is to be composed of the same particles of matter in its immortal as in its mortal state, then when raised from the dead it must have flesh and blood, and must resume in the eternal world the life interrupted on earth. In that case they concluded that earthly relationships would be resumed, husband and wife would be reunited, marriages consummated, and all things go on the same as before death, the frailties and passions of this life being perpetuated in the life beyond. In answer to their questions, Jesus lifted the veil from the future life. “In the resurrection,” He said, “they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” He showed that the Sadducees were wrong in their belief. Their premises were false. “Ye do err,” He added, “not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” He did not charge them, as He had charged the Pharisees, with hypocrisy, but with error of belief. {DA 605.4}


So if you need me to unpack this for you JAK, and Elle, Jesus is saying that we are like the angels in the second life not having sexual relations, which is to say the ANGELS DO NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS and He was warning everyone who would believe that garbage that they are like the Sadducees.

Whew!

Angels in obedience having spiritual bodies in heavens, does not marry, however it is a different story for angels that has left their heavenly abode and came on earth manifested as men and disobeyed the Lord's command to not marry. That's why Peter said they had sinned and Jude compares their sins to Sodom and Gomorrah going after 'strange flesh". The Bible is very clear on the issue.

The "sons of God" do not act that way, Elle. Those are the fallen angels, and Genesis does not say that it was the fallen ones, but rather the "sons of God" who married the daughters of Cain. Who are the "sons of God"? They are those who are obedient to God's will.



The above passages are clear about the "sons of God." These are "sons of God" are God's heritage, His "seed." God's children obey Him. Those who do not obey have another heritage. Notice the distinction drawn between these two classes in 1 John 3 (first half quoted below).



According to the Bible, those who sin are children of the devil, and those who are righteous are the children of God. Each one of us has the privilege of choosing our paternity. Either God is our Father or the devil is.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Where does the Bible say that angels received a command to not marry? They don't marry because they aren't physical beings.
Angels (both fallen and unfallen) may assume a human appearance, but they aren't flesh and blood, so they can't procreate.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Eph 6:12).

Right on Kland, G.C. and Rosangela. Great textual support, I'm making notes for the future with those.

Yes, the Bible is very clear on the issue, but opposite to what you are saying here.

Where do you come up with all this type of stuff???

"Strange flesh" is opening up a whole new topic.

Yes, I would agree. But lets go back a bit and focus on the 'Sons of God' in Job. Would you have any issue with them being like Adam/Seth as SOP says... We know there are other beings on other worlds. I think if we understand the 'Sons of God' on earth and other worlds as those God created, then it resolves many issues....

Brother Rick, check this quote from Patriarchs and Prophets...

'God was to be manifest in Christ, “reconciling the world unto himself.” Human beings had become so degraded by sin that it was impossible for them, in themselves, to come into harmony with Him whose nature is purity and goodness. But Christ, after having redeemed them from the condemnation of the law, could impart divine power to unite with human effort. Thus by repentance toward God and faith in Christ the fallen children of Adam might once more become “sons of God.”Patriarchs and Prophets, 63, 64. {CTr 30.5}

I love how my Lord leads me to the perfect quote. Thank you Father.

Adam was a created son of God until he fell and gave his dominion to the evil one.

The angels are not sons of God. Satan used the love between God and Adam, the son of God as a device to bring pain to the Fathers heart. Jesus became a part of the created Son's of God by becoming a man, so He could fill the position Adam lost, the elder of the Human race. We all get the right to become 'son's of God' by being re-established in communion through Christ.

The pain the Father suffered in the death of His Son was more than we will ever know.

Satan knows way better than we do that in perfection God's heart can be felt by every son of God and ours to Him, he envies this and sets out to destroy the connection. He has done a pretty good job several times in the rise and fall of the church in history and these biblical stories are witnesses to the fabric of it all.

This is the throne of the heart that Satan seeks to sit upon and show himself to be god.

"Sons of God" can be by creation or birth by the Father like Jesus, the angels, and Adam were, or by adoption like the sons of man will become.

It is true, a true son of God will obey. And these fallen angels were in obedience before they fell. However, just because they fell does not negate the fact that they were in obedience before hand and are not pro-created beings and all of them have been created straight from the Lord's hand. Therefore their father is the Lord and these angels are His sons. That physical fact does not change whether they sin or not. Angels are referred as Sons of God in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.

Adam is a son of God also for he was created by the Lord. However, all Adams offsprings were born after the fall of Adam. And the Bible is very specific that we are "Sons of men"(23 occurences in the Bible, and 193x for “son of man”).

Any man on earth today or any offsprings of Adam was or cannot be considered as a "son of God". Scripture says that we will become(future) “sons of God” by ADOPTION.(Rm 8:15; 8:23; 9:4; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5)) That means we are still not “sons of God” nor does any sons of Seth were by Biblical definition.

The beginning of the process of becoming one starts when we are reborn by the Spirit. When we are reborn, it’s only a seed(Jesus) is in us that still needs to grow inside a body that the carnal mind is big and dominant.

There are many different stages of growth by which the types and shadows of the Law describes. The baby stage is symbolically represented by the Passover(justification). The children stage is symbolically represented by Pentecost(the offering of two leavened bread) where we receive only an earnest deposit of the spirit. But full sonship is represented by the Feast of Tabernacle by which the sons will be declared and will receive the full measure of the spirit.

This has not been fulfilled yet. So everyone is at least in the Pentecost level of growth IF they are learning to hear the voice of God for themselves. Most SDAs and other Christians are still in the Passover stage and yet that is questionable. No one will get to the Tabernacle level without going through the Pentecost stage. In that stage we are to hear and learn to differentiate the voice of the Lord apart from ours.

The Bible is very specific and refers to us as “Children of God” because children are not yet Sons until they reach full maturity and have received the fullness of the Spirit.

Also, sonship is not an individual phenomena. Many has died overcomers(through the disciplines of the Lord); however they have to wait for the resurrection to part of “the manisfestation of the sons of God"”. It is a group phenomena, for at that time, the body will be attach(Marriage) to the head(Jesus).

AV Ga 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons

AV Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God…. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

The Bible says we are waiting for the adoption of becoming "sons of God". Rom 8:23 So reality is we are not sons yet, and only have a downpayment of the spirit, still have corruptible body, and was not given immortality yet. The glorified bodily estate that Adam had, no one has it yet and the sons of Seth did not have it either.

That's another Biblical reason why "sons of God" in Gen 6:2 cannot mean that it was talking about the Sons of Seth. This contradicts sound doctrine.

After looking closer at the verses it seems to be more clear who they were, it doesnt use the word for angels, look at Strongs:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day 3117 when the sons1121 of God 430 came 935 to present 3320 themselves before the LORD 3068, and Satan 7854 came 935 also among 8432 them.

Compare to Job's sons....

Job 1:13 And there was a day 3117 when his sons1121 and his daughters 1323 [were] eating 398 and drinking 8354 wine 3196 in their eldest 1060 brother's 251 house 1004:

Same thing in Job 2 and 38:

b 2:1 Again there was a day 3117 when the sons1121 of God 430 came 935 to present 3320 themselves before the LORD 3068, and Satan 7854 came 935 also among 8432 them to present 3320 himself before the LORD 3068.

Job 38:7 When the morning 1242 stars 3556 sang 7442 together 3162, and all the sons1121 of God 430 shouted 7321 for joy?

??? Sons are a son of some father. The Hebrew word for son is ben(h1121). Their are many sons of man because they were fathered by a man. This is different with someone who was fathered by Elohim himself like Adam, angels and Jesus. That's why they are called "sons of God"(ha-Elohim beni). However Jesus was also identified as a "son of man" for His mother was a daughter of a man.

In Job the context shows that these individuals where angels which were identified as "sons of God" especially Job 38.

Then we have strong confirmation of Gen 6:2 being angels by Jude and Peter who refers to these fallen angels that have left their abode(heaven) and have sinned relating it to the sins of Sodom and Gomorrh.

You have yet to demonstrate any text of the Bible that applies the phrase "sons of God" to FALLEN angels. To holy beings, yes. To saints of God, yes. To the righteous, yes. To the wicked, never.

Jesus was the only "son of God" begotten by God. The rest are sons by identification/adoption.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I'm sorry Elle to have to put it this way but you are deceived.

Son's of God are heirs of the Father and inherit the earth, what do the fallen angels inherit? Why would they be called Son's of God if their inheritance is destruction?

Acts 20:32
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
32 and now, I commend you, brethren, to God, and to the word of His grace, that is able to build up, and to give you an inheritance among all those sanctified.

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

“Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:50. Man in his present state is mortal, corruptible; but the kingdom of God will be incorruptible, enduring forever. Therefore man in his present state cannot enter into the kingdom of God. But when Jesus comes, He confers immortality upon His people; and then He calls them to inherit the kingdom of which they have hitherto been only heirs. {GC 322.2}

Know ye not that we shall judge the angels?

"Every word spoken by fathers and mothers has its influence over the children, for good or for evil. If the parents speak passionately, if they show the spirit shown by the children of this world, God counts them as the children of this world, not as His sons and daughters." {AH 434.2}

I have done a thorough investigation and not one time in scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy does God ever mention the fallen angels as his sons. In fact we are not even considered son's of God until the inheritance and I'm pretty positive God does not call the unfallen angels His sons either. They are called the morning stars.

The point is, why would God call the fallen angels "son's of God" if He doesn't call wicked men son's of God? If the prerequisite of being a Son of God for men is in conforming to the will of the Father, then why would it not be for angels? And if conforming to the Fathers will is the prerequisite then it is for certain that Satan could not be one.

"The nations of the saved will know no other law than the law of heaven. All will be a happy, united family, clothed with the garments of praise and thanksgiving. Over the scene the morning stars will sing together, and the sons of God will shout for joy, while God and Christ will unite in proclaiming, “There shall be no more sin, neither shall there be any more death.”10 {AH 544.2}

We will be called son's of God and will be a united family with Christ in the earth made new, and the angels or morning stars sing over us. So Satan was a morning star, not a son of God.

That is interesting since I said almost the exact same thing just before you posted this and it has not been posted yet.

Tell me who was the father of Adam? Tell me who was the father of the angels? How these where created versus Jesus in the womb of Mary, I agree is different but the bottom line rest that the Almighty was their creator directly, and their Father and they were born with the full measure of the Spirit of the Lord in contrary to any man born of man who have a man as their father and born with hardly any measure of the Spirit.

???? Job 1; 2; 38, Genesis 6, Jude and Peter relating to the incident.

Are you saying the fallen angels were created evil and never were holy???? Job relates clearly that the "sons of God" were angels, and it is correctly taught in our church that the fallen angels were once holy angels. They had a holy condition before they fell, and that's why they are identified as "sons of God" to specify who are the ones that fell.

No where in the Bible says that it was the sons of Seth that fell. I have the Bible, the sonship doctrine, and sound logic to back up that Gen 6:2 where angels, but where is your Biblical support for your interpretation???

Elle,

According to the Bible, sonship is not determined by one's genetics nor heritage. It is not determined by creatorship. We all know that the devil cannot create even one of us. The devil has no power to create people, or life at all. So it would therefore be impossible, per your theology, to ever find a "son of the devil."

But look at what Jesus taught.



According to you, Elle, Jesus just lied. Those people cannot have had Satan as their father. Satan did not create them. Jesus created them.

But the Bible assigns sonship, not by creatorship, but by character. In other words, sonship can be changed. As I said in my earlier post, we can choose our father. We can select our own spiritual paternity.

Whom do we serve?

If the fallen angels had never fallen they would still be the sons of God. But having become sinners, they are no longer God's children. That is why the Bible never once refers to them as the sons of God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

There is some truth in your statement, but heritage(genetic) was also a main part of the transfer of inheritance and birthright as we see with the patriarch. The birthright and inheritance had to go to the firstborn according to the law in Deut 21:15-17. That law was to protect the first born in case the mother was later unloved, and the man came to loved his second wife more. Leah was the unloved wife and according to the law the inheritance had to go to Reuben unless there were legal cause for being unworthy of it. We see this in the life of Jesus also, he had to prove worthy of the inheritance despite He was the firstborn son of the Almighty.

So Reuben lost his inheritance because he defiled his father’s bed. Despite Simeon and Levi shed blood in the city of Hamor the Hivite, Jacob did give them a part of the inheritance, but the main part of the inheritance was split between Judah (the scepter) and Joseph(the fruitful bough). So we see here the Lord does regard genetics to pass His inheritance to. And so, we see the same picture with the nation of Israel who was the first-son of God, therefore the inheritance belong to them by the Law. It does get a little complicated because the Lord did give a bill of devorsement to Israel and prophesy does talk about the restoration of Israel. Without getting into that, we see Judah proved themselves unworthy and therefore the inheritance went there after to the gentiles.

But basically we see here that the Lord also follows His own laws of physical sonship.

I have no idea what you're talking about. You maybe confusing with someone else’s comment. I never said it was the devil who married any of the daughters of man.


There’s a spiritual and a physical dimension of death, birth, sonship, circumcision, the Sabbath and all other aspects of the law. The spirit(whether of the Lord or the adversary) that possess us is our spiritual father, but we also have a physical father. All human beings needs to go through adoption to gain sonships as written in the scriptures.

Scriptures says that we get to sonship through discipline. It is not something we choose, it is the Father who select who He shall show mercy(Rom 9-11) to first and puts them through trials and severe trials too. Heb 12: 4” In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”

Many clam to be children of God but really never faced any serious form of discipline. Whatever little discipline they face they claim it comes from Satan and not from the Father. Those who do not face the discipline in this life cannot become sons of God, they’re father is someone else.
We see that the Father discipline Jacob severely and scripture relates to it by saying that “He loved Jacob, but hated Essau”. This is a type of litteracy exageration as we know the Lord did not hate Essau, but the meaning here is that the Lord disciplined Jacob for He had in His plan to give the birthright to him before they were even born despite he was not the first-born. The Lord set it all up by birthing Jacob a few second after Essau. Did the Lord broke His own law by giving the birthright to the second son? or did he give it after all? He didn’t and the fact is that Jacob stole or trick Essau to sell him the birthright. The birthright was not Essau to sell. And so this illegal struggle for the birthright is still not resolve ‘till today. The Lord did not let that by. Jacob did not obtain the birthright legally and there is a restitution to be made toward Essau who was the rightful heir. This is an interesting part of history and seeing that nothing is tuck under the carpet even after Jacob has repented. This was illegal and the Lord had planned it that way to rectify this later on. Under divine inspiration Jacob foresaw this needed rectification and that is why the birthright was splitted amongs the sons of Leah, and the best given to Joseph.

If we are to study history and prophesies about Essau and Judah, it will show that these two nation merged just before the time of Jesus. Then in 1948, the birthright was regiven to Essau-Judah when they regain the land of Jerusalem, so he can show himself worthy of the inheritance. As we can see today, that Essau-Judah is blood thirsty and it is only a question of time for the prophecies is to be fulfilled about them. Here’s the link to read more about The Struggle of the Birthright.

To conclude, the Lord works through His laws. We see that genetic sonship is part of his laws and he still works through these nations today, however, it is also true what it boils down to whom the Lords disciplines are those He is training to become the true sons who is learning to obey His voice through the laws of tribulations. And those He disciplines not, are not His sons in this age.


That is not true and you cannot support that with scriptures. Scriptures relates to these fallen angels as being disciplined and reserve for judgment. Since they are severely disciplined as Heb 12 denotes, it is some type of proof they are still sons. The Bible does not give us any information that they have lost their sonship status. We do not know what the Lord has in mind and what His judgment will be. So we shouldn’t speculate for the Bible does not go into that dimension.

Have you tried looking at oil slicks in a teacup?
Some have come up with the strangest things by doing that.

Jesus was "counted among the transgressors" which means He is on the list of men born of a woman, and it means He took the sins of those He would lead to forgiveness upon His sinless head. He was fully God and fully man. So He was both a "son of God" by birth from the bosom of the Father and by birth through a human woman, having not sinned.

This is the point so many over look. He was the second Adam because He left everything to become one of us and live the perfect life. This gave Him the right to take our sins upon Himself. If He had sinned even in thought everything He came to do would mean nothing.

God re-established a connection to this fallen race through the death of the body of the perfect man, the one sent by the Father as a sacrifice.

Jesus ministered to the souls in prison when came to this earth to give the dead life, which can only be establishes while we are alive to be tested. So the living dead are brought back to life and then we receive the translation into the heavenly body at the resurrection.

GC this was the perfect quote and I mean it in the way you meant it.

"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

The devil is the Father of all those born into sin, all of the descendants of Adam are born slaves to sin, and Jesus came to set us free from this prison of death.

So this quote proves that Satan, though not the creator, is the father of the wicked if they want to believe it or not. They are the seed of the devil, which goes to the beginning in Eden when the curse was pronounced. When God said "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed" this is the two classes that are spoken of as the 'Son's of God' and the 'son's of men'.

Would you say that satan(the adversary) is the spiritual father or the physical father or both?

Good points..

Though we have fallen and are in corrupted flesh, we will ever only have one creator, thank you Father for this foundation, amen.

It's all about the connect between heaven and earth.

Without connection to the Father, we are dead spiritually, so this fallen condition, so unsatisfying, is the realm of Satan.

He cuts us off from heaven through our parents, and then through sin if we let him.

Satan controls the flesh if we are unrepentant, but God is still the owner. That is why HE has the right to destroy to cleans.

I can't remember if she said Jesus was a physical son of God in the past or if this is about to be the next topic.

GOD DESTROYS NO MAN.

Uh Oh. Now we do have another topic.

Men destroy themselves, but God still has to execute justice. Haven't you heard of God's strange act? You do not know God as you should yet claim to be a teacher!

"To sin, wherever found, “our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.—The Desire of Ages, 107 (1898). {LDE 279.1}

If God allowed His Son to suffer His wrath for our sins, what makes you think He would not destroy us?

"To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Ezekiel 33:11.... Yet He will “by no means clear the guilty.” “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord’s reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God’s account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {FLB 338.5}
After God has done all that could be done to save men, if they still show by their lives that they slight offered mercy, death will be their portion; and it will be a dreadful death, for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross. They will then realize what they have lost—eternal life and the immortal inheritance. {FLB 338.6}

You do know that fire rains down out of heaven to destroy the wicked don't you?

"When the first beams of the morning dawn, the inhabitants of Sodom are not aware of the departure of Lot and the angels. They were determined to abuse the strangers, but as they come to the house of Lot, it is found vacant, and the hour of doom comes upon them. And the Lord rains fire and brimstone upon the city, and the beautiful plain that looked like Paradise when the angels passed over it, now looks like a parched and blackened desert. The smoke of the burning goes up like the smoke of a great furnace, and the whole heaven is illuminated with the flames of the great conflagration. Sodom has become a place of desolation and ruin. {ST October 16, 1893, par. 5}


Ezekiel 9 (KJV)
9 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me."

Didn't the Father send the angel of death? I suppose you think it was Satan?

"Next morning a message was brought by the prophet Gad: “Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee either three years’ famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel.” {EP 543.3}

"And they were required to separate themselves and their children from the Egyptians, and gather them into their own houses; for if any of the Israelites were found in the houses of the Egyptians, they would fall by the hand of the destroying angel. They were also directed to keep the feast of the passover for an ordinance, that when their children should inquire what such service meant, they should relate to them their wonderful preservation in Egypt: That when the destroying angel went forth in the night to slay the first-born of man, and the first-born of beast, he passed over their houses, and not one of the Hebrews that had the token of blood upon their door-posts was slain. And the people bowed their heads and worshiped, grateful for this remarkable memorial given to preserve to their children the remembrance of God’s care for his people. There were quite a number of the Egyptians who were led to acknowledge, by the manifestations of the signs and wonders shown in Egypt, that the God of the Hebrews was the only true God. They entreated to be permitted to come to the houses of the Israelites with their families upon that fearful night when the angel of God should slay the first-born of the Egyptians. They were convinced that their gods whom they had worshiped were without knowledge, and had no power to save or to destroy. And they pledged themselves to henceforth choose the God of Israel as their God. They decided to leave Egypt, and go with the children of Israel to worship their God. The Israelites welcomed the believing Egyptians to their houses. {1SP 200.1}

I have gone through this argument with the leaders of our conference and they wouldn't listen so I suppose you will be just like them APL?

So APL do you agree that your use of that quote was in error?

If you look at the whole quote you borrowed that statement from as posted by Johann, "GOD DESTROYS NO MAN", it is obvious you were trying to use that statement in error, because that same paragraph later mentions the first born slain by the angel of God and the chariots and men of war being swallowed up by the Red Sea, did God not have something to do with those events?

Pharaoh and the disobedient first born chose their destruction but God executed the sentence by swallowing them up in the Red Sea or destroying them by the angel of death.

"Those who do not choose to accept of the salvation so dearly purchased, must be punished. But I saw that God would not shut them up in hell to endure endless misery, neither will He take them to heaven; for to bring them into the company of the pure and holy would make them exceedingly miserable. But He will destroy them utterly and cause them to be as if they had not been; then His justice will be satisfied. He formed man out of the dust of the earth, and the disobedient and unholy will be consumed by fire and return to dust again. I saw that the benevolence and compassion of God in this matter should lead all to admire His character and to adore His holy name. After the wicked are destroyed from off the earth, all the heavenly host will say, “Amen!” {EW 221.1}

So, if this is taken seriously, it is saying if you don't appreciate this issue you will not be lead to admire His character and adore His name.

"When Sennacherib, the haughty Assyrian, reproached and blasphemed God, and threatened Israel with destruction, “it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand.” There were “cut off all the mighty men of valor, and the leaders and captains,” from the army of Sennacherib. “So he returned with shame of face to his own land.” 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21. {TA 10.2}

125,000 men in one night killed by the angel of the Lord.

"Angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction, —Manuscript Releases 21:66. {TA 241.2}

The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

[ALL] Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

The words spoken to Israel are true today of those who recover health of body or health of soul. "I am the Lord that healeth thee." Exodus 15:26. {MH 113.2}

The desire of God for every human being is expressed in the words, "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." 3 John 1:2. {MH 113.3}

He it is who "forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with loving-kindness and tender mercies." Psalms 103:3-4. {MH 113.4}

When Christ healed disease, He warned many of the afflicted ones, "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." John 5:14. Thus He taught that they had brought disease upon themselves by transgressing the laws of God, and that health could be preserved only by obedience. {MH 113.5}


Read the Scriptures carefully, and you will find that Christ spent the largest part of His ministry in restoring the suffering and afflicted to health. Thus He threw back upon Satan the reproach of the evil which the enemy of all good had originated. Satan is the destroyer; Christ is the Restorer. {13MR 213.2}

It is written:
Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he sees the blood on the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you.

Psalms 78:49 He cast on them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hosea 11:8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.

Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

It's difficult for people to understand this because it is true that every sinner is destroyed by his or her own choice, but not by his or her own power. The power is in the hands of One who is greater--the same One who empowered them with their freedom to choose for themselves their own way and end. While they have chosen destruction, God gives them their choice.

The sinner does not have the power to bring about his or her own final death. This is the interesting thing. For example, consider the following:



Now, let's get back to the topic.

It is interesting that at the time of the Flood, sinners also did not wish to die, but were given the choice before the door closed. They chose their destruction, but they did not administer it to themselves. At that point, they wished to be free from the consequences of their choice, but it was too late. This will be repeated.

This is why Jesus came to set people free--to preach to the captives of sin. The first step is to know the truth. John 14:6, John 8:32, and John 17:17 give us the sequence. Once we know the truth, it sets us free, then sanctifies us. It is this truth that saves. The truth is that Jesus has paid our penalty and we may accept salvation of Him as a free gift, merely by choosing to place our faith in Him, and by surrendering our will to His. This is the gospel.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation. "Man turns from God, not God from him." Our heavenly Father follows us with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion, until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests with the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power. Thus he passes on from one stage of resistance to another, until at last the light will fail to impress, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. Then even "the light that is in thee" has become darkness. The very truth we do know has become so perverted as to increase the blindness of the soul. {MB 93.1}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

“The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity” Isaiah 26:21.

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

I have used this quote dozens of times to defend the truth from men in our church that have no idea how righteous our God is to be able to make these commands. God has the right to destroy the unrighteous, He can do it through His angels, wicked angels or directly from His own hand if He wanted.

When Uzzah put forth his hand to steady the ark when it looked as if it would fall who struck him dead? Was it Satan? Look it up!

Are you going to say, like certain very influential leaders in our flock, that the plagues are sent by demons ?

The righteous angels of heaven hold the seven vials in heaven and one of them spoke to John. Are you going to say these were demons? I have fought in the name of the lord to defend the church from such heresy!!!!

God has shown me that it is wicked for men who claim our faith to do the surmising that you just did. You take a piece of scripture from the midst of a quote that obviously does not support your theory yet you are bold enough to pull it out of context and not be scorched by your conscience when you see what you are doing. How can you do that?

Case in point... You quoted Heb 11:28 and you quoted this much...

"By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel."

So in this quote you are obviously believing that the destroying angel in Egypt was Satan correct? Well it wasn't.

"They entreated to be permitted to come to the houses of the Israelites with their families, upon that fearful night when the angel of God should slay the first-born of the Egyptians. They were convinced that their gods whom they had worshiped were without knowledge, and had no power to save or to destroy. And they pledged themselves to henceforth choose the God of Israel as their God. They decided to leave Egypt, and go with the children of Israel to worship their God. The Israelites welcomed the believing Egyptians to their houses. {3SG 223.1}

"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. 29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

So who drowned the Egyptians? Was it the devil?

Exodus 15(KJV)

Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. 8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

So who drowned them? The invisible God before Israel held the waters through the command of Moses and the rod of Power, then when the people made it safely through the Egyptians who were pursuing them were drowned by GOD! So the Egyptians destroyed themselves by not repenting of their sins and God executed judgment. God destroyed them in righteousness to save the righteous.

Who drowned the world by flood? Did Satan? He thought he was going to be die in the turmoil, so it wasn't him.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

How can you harmonize your understanding with this statement Brother?

Who killed Jesus? Was it Satan?

And then you quote Romans 1:18-32 obviously in condemnation of someone trying to correct you.

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?" {LDE 241.3}

You do.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Alright GC! Praise God someone defends the truth.

Love me, or I will kill you!

He causes "the light to shine out of darkness." 2 Corinthians 4:6. When "the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep," "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and there was light." Genesis 1:2, 3. So in the night of spiritual darkness, God's word goes forth, "Let there be light." To His people He says, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee." Isaiah 60:1. {COL 415.1}

"Behold," says the Scripture, "the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee." Isaiah 60:2. {COL 415.2}

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3}

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isaiah 40:9,10. {COL 415.4}

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them. {COL 415.5}

That message is not, "Love Me, or I'll kill you". It is that He loves you so much that He gives us personal freedom. Even freedom to choose that will will destroy us. God does not execute sinners.

You do not comprehend righteousness APL. God is a consuming fire to wickedness!

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the Lord thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them...

The reason Jesus had to die, is so we would not have to. Did God forsake His Son? According to your logic APL, He did. According to your logic it was unnecessary for Jesus to die under the wrath of the Father.

"But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God’s dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father’s wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul.... The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness. He had not one ray of light to brighten the future.... It was in this terrible hour of darkness, the face of His Father hidden, legions of evil angels enshrouding Him, the sins of the world upon Him, that the words were wrenched from His lips: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” ... {AG 171.3}

Was Jesus here condemning His Father for allowing Him to suffer the wrath? Or was this a hypothetical question intended to get us to think about why Jesus was "cut off"?

According to scripture He allowed His wrath to fall on Jesus to save the world.

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Does Jesus say "no Father do not allow them to burn"?

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." {LDE 241.2}

IT ALL MUST HARMONIZE IN OUR DOCTRINES OR IT IS ALL A LIE!

It is interesting to see one so excited by the destruction God will cause. However, God is not the cause of the destruction. Sin is the cause of the destruction.

Isaiah 60:1-3
1 Arise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen on you.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise on you, and his glory shall be seen on you.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.


How do the angels to hurt the earth? The restraining power is removed. That is how they wield their power. Read Deuteronomy 32. Read Hosea 11:8.
Revelation 7:1-3
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Consider these verses:

So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them (Genesis 6:7).
And, behold, I Myself am bringing a floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die (Genesis 6:17).
Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground (Genesis 19:24-25).
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt (Exodus 7:3)
And He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said (Exodus 7:13).
And he said to them, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor’” (Exodus 32:27).

Contrast those with these:

The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious [holy, KJV] in all His works (Psalms 145:17).
Your testimonies [commandments or laws], which You have commanded, are righteous and very faithful (Psalms 119:138).

The wickedness of the inhabitants of the world has almost filled up the measure of their iniquity. This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. {7T 141.1}

It is no part of Christ's mission to compel men to receive Him. It is Satan, and men actuated by his spirit, that seek to compel the conscience. Under a pretense of zeal for righteousness, men who are confederate with evil angels bring suffering upon their fellow men, in order to convert them to their ideas of religion; but Christ is ever showing mercy, ever seeking to win by the revealing of His love. He can admit no rival in the soul, nor accept of partial service; but He desires only voluntary service, the willing surrender of the heart under the constraint of love. There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. {DA 487.3} This does not sound like any body here, does it?

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan’s government. The Lord’s principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God’s government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power {DA 579.1}

The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

There will be those who will charge some with twisting the Scriptures. They will accuse them of making the Word of God say what it does not. They will argue emphatically that the Bible says, “God destroyed them.” Then they will ask, “What could be written more plainly than that?”

Is there solution to this problem? Yes there is...

Ellen White connects the past with the present, and with our duty. As Noah did, we also should do--educate people in the way of truth.



Those who have heard and rejected the message are choosing a fate which may not be to their liking, yet it is the most merciful thing God can do.

God does not destroy in the same vengeful and angry spirit as we might choose to do. His form of destruction is one of mercy, and not of hatred. Justice and mercy are one and the same with God. His acts of mercy are acts of justice and His acts of justice are acts of mercy.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think once the wicked realize that God does exists and His judgement is real, and they have choosen to live in sin and evil which is totally against Gods character, they will want to hide from God. So where in the universe can you hide.....

If men destroy themselves, why would God need to do anything?
When does God's strange act happen?

Could you define, from the Bible, what Justice is?

For those who think God is the destroyer, do you think Ellen White is wrong here?

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Jeremiah 23:5
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jude 1:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Revelation 16:7
And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Here are a few texts on the theme of "justice."



From these I gather that "justice" is nearly synonymous with "judgment." We see these two words used in conjunction repeatedly in the Bible.

The word "justice" itself is associated with truth, equity, holiness, righteousness, and judgment.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I don't believe anyone here is calling God the destroyer. Certainly I am not. Satan is the destroyer. Satan is also the accuser of the brethren.

But just because Satan is the primary one involved, does God never destroy nor accuse?

Consider that on the day of His coming, Jesus will accuse the wicked of not having obeyed His law. "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust." (John 5:45) He basically is saying the law itself (God's character) accuses the wicked.

The Bible speaks multiple times of "false accusations." Jesus instructed the soldiers not to falsely accuse anyone. It is interesting that He did not tell them never to accuse anyone, just not to do so falsely.



Now, just because Jesus at times accuses does not make Him "the accuser of the brethren," does it? The same is true of His "strange act" in which He destroys. He is not the destroyer just because at times He must execute justice and judgment. As the King of the Universe, it is ultimately His duty to solve the sin problem and to put an end to it. When He does finally do so, the watching universe will say Amen, for they have seen how just and fair God is in executing judgment.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The reason the Spirit of Prophecy says "God destroys no man" is in the strictest sense; if anyone forsakes salvation and the grace God offers, it is their fault not God's that they are destroyed in the lake of fire.

It was not God's fault that Satan rebelled and men fell.

It is the fault of all who neglected so great an opportunity that they end up in the flames. So no it is not God fault, but it is His execution of Justice that punishes them for their rejection of mercy.

The billion dollars is in the bank and all you got to do is cash the check scenario.

So which is it? If God destroys, is He not then a destroyer?

Here are some quotes on Justice:

Zechariah 7:9 "This is what the LORD Almighty said: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.

Isaiah 1:16-17 Wash yourselves clean. Stop all this evil that I see you doing. Yes, stop doing evil 17 and learn to do right. See that justice is done---help those who are oppressed, give orphans their rights, and defend widows."

Jeremiah 21:12 This is what the LORD says to you, house of David: "'Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done-- burn with no one to quench it.

Isaiah 30:18 The LORD is waiting to be kind to you. He rises to have compassion on you. The LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all those who wait for him.

Ezekiel 45:9 NLT "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Enough, you princes of Israel! Stop your violence and oppression and do what is just and right. Quit robbing and cheating My people out of their land. Stop expelling them from their homes, says the Sovereign LORD.

Ezekiel 45:9 NKJV 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Enough, O princes of Israel! Remove violence and plundering, execute justice and righteousness, and stop dispossessing My people," says the Lord GOD.

Proverbs 2:8-9 He guards the paths of justice, And preserves the way of His saints. 9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice, Equity and every good path.

Micah 6:6-8 What should I bring when I come into the LORD'S presence, when I bow in front of the God of heaven? Should I bring him year-old calves as burnt offerings? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams or with endless streams of olive oil? Should I give him my firstborn child because of my rebellious acts? Should I give him my young child for my sin? 8 You mortals, the LORD has told you what is good. This is what the LORD requires from you: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to live humbly with your God.

Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

And quoting friend of mine, this about the cross:

Who exhibited violence and injustice at the Cross? In Acts, chapter 8, we read:

“He was like a sheep that is taken to be slaughtered, like a lamb that makes no sound when its wool is cut off. He did not say a word. He was humiliated, and justice was denied him. No one will be able to tell about his descendants, because his life on earth has come to an end.” (Acts 8:32-33)

At the Cross, we see no violence, no punishment coming directly from the hand of God. Who was it that exhibited violence at the Cross? What we see at the Cross is humanity, represented by a mob of religious yet violent murderers who tortured to death the Son of God. Who deserved to be punished at the Cross? By our understanding of justice, would not the innocent Jesus have been justified to call down fire from heaven on the guilty people who brought him to a sham trial and then cruelly mocked him?

Instead, what we see at the Cross is the innocent Son of God, saying to guilty humanity: “Father, forgive them.” This returning of love and kindness in the face of our hatred is the radical restorative justice of God.   At the Cross, our desire for punishment, our violence, and our hatred, is replaced by God’s forgiveness, God’s non-violence, and God’s love.

“God’s justice is restorative and healing, not retributive. While retributive justice seeks to fit the punishment to the crime, attempting to control wrongdoing through punishment, restorative justice forgives the crime and seeks to redeem wrongdoing through a repairing of the relationship. At the Cross we see God turning away the opportunity to exact retributive justice and the demand for retribution, and instead God would choose to forgive. At the Cross we come face to face with the shameful depravity of our own sin by coming face to face with the One who has the right and the power to punish but who instead loves and forgives.” (Stricken by God?)

In the face of human hatred and hardness of heart, God still managed to redeem. Returning violence and hatred with forgiveness and love does not often fit into our paradigm of justice, but thankfully our God is much bigger and much better than we can possibly imagine him to be.

You know what, I tend to believe what the Bible says, do you? The Bible says God will destroy.



Isn't that interesting that God emphasizes that He will destroy? "I, even I, ...destroy all flesh...."

Remember the conversation that Abraham and the Lord had regarding Sodom and Gomorrah? They bartered about how many righteous must be there to prevent God from destroying the place. There weren't even 10 righteous, so God was free of His oath to Abraham. His angels were sent to accomplish the destruction of Sodom. "For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it," they said. "And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law."

Exodus 23:27 tells us that God promised to "destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come" in giving the children of Israel the inheritance of Canaan.

There are many, many more texts which inform the wise as to God's acts of mercy and justice. I believe them.

Do you believe the Bible, APL? Perhaps you believe Mrs. White's writings.



Jesus said that the last days would be as the days of Noah. Those who say that God will not destroy help to fulfill His prophecy, for that is exactly what the antediluvians were saying.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God is not THE destroyer, because He only destroys that which is already destroyed. THE destroyer is the one who removed the image of God from His creation to the point where it was no longer redeemable and must be destroyed by its Creator.

That is the way I see it. This is why Mrs. White can legitimately say, of the same breath as it were, that God destroys no man, yet that God destroys. We are looking at two separate aspects.

Sin destroys first. Sin destroys the creation. God destroys next. God destroys the sin. Because the sinner is inextricably joined to his or her sin, God must destroy the sinner with it. But all of the blame for this destruction rightfully belongs to the Father of Sin, i.e. Satan.

If a farmer has a flock of animals in which a few contract a deadly, contagious virus, the wise farmer must destroy the affected individuals for the preservation of the rest, and for the ultimate peace and happiness of his entire farm. This is God's situation. Drastic circumstances call for drastic measures. God does not enjoy destroying His creations any more than the farmer would enjoy culling his animals. But the responsibility to act is His. Even the suffering creatures would rather be put out of their misery. God's act of destruction is at once justice and mercy. They are one and the same.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

OH - Now that's clear... WAIT - God has to destroy that which is already destroyed. RIGHT.

AH - So God IS the Destroyer. I get it. God is not a destroyer, but He IS a destroyer. Sin really does not kill sinners, GOD kills sinners. RIGHT. Thanks for clearing this up.

And why exactly did God not do this in the beginning? I get it! Because people would have thought that it was God that was doing the destruction, not sin. But wait!!! God is doing the destruction. Whoa. This is amazing stuff. Good News indeed! </sarcasm>

"God’s judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. “The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.” Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is “merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, ... forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Yet He will “by no means clear the guilty.” “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord’s reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God’s account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy.... {DD 43.4}

APL,

Do you believe God? Do you believe the Bible? Why does God say that He will destroy?

Instead of finding fault with my view, perhaps you can provide us a superior explanation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - - do you not see the confusion in your statements? God does not destroy. God destroys... Which is it? Either He does or He does not. It can not be both.

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1}

Character of God - - God is a killer. He will destroy you if you sin

Nature of sin - - Long story - but one point for sure, sin kills, sin pays its wage.

Real issues at stake - - do you have freedom? Do you have free choice? Can you choose to separate from what God has to offer? If you do, how will God respond? God will let you go, He has to! Or there is no freedom. When God give sinners up, "gives them up" , when he "lets them god", "hands them over", sinners will dies. Read the book "The Great Controversy", chapter 1 on the destruction of Jerusalem. Did God destroy Jerusalem? NO. Yet it is an example of the punishment for sin.

Did God kill Jesus? JESUS IS THE KEY, JESUS IS THE ANSWER. God did NOT Kill Christ. Sin killed Christ. When you understand that, you understand that it is not God that executes sinners. Sin kills. Not God.

What God permits, He takes credit for. Did God kill Saul? NOPE. But, 1 Chronicles 10:14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.

Do YOU Believe God Green? Here is proof! God killed Saul. But what really happened? Read Deuteronomy 32. There are MANY examples of this. God did this and that. But what was really happening. The snake in the desert, "God sent the snakes". Numbers 21:6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. Did God send the snakes? The Bible says so! OR does it? EGW lifts the veil - God removed His protection and the snakes did what they naturally (well, after sin) do. HE HAD TO. Freedom of choice demanded it.

If the only reason sinners die in the end is because God executes them, then God is a tyrant. But sinners die because of sin, not God. In the end, everyone will know what the consequences of their choice will bring. And it is not execution. It is death to be sure, but just as Jesus did not die of execution by God, sinners will die the same death as Jesus.

And so yes, I reject the idea that God is the executioner. It makes one serve God from fear, not love. The last message of mercy to the world, COL 415, is God's character of love. Read Steps to Christ chapter 5! The use of force is contrary to God's government. Period, Full Stop. If you God executes sinners, is that not a use of force?

You guys should start another discussion about whether the Lord destroy or not.

Yes, Elle. Somehow people think that the spirits in prison have had something to do with whether or not God destroys. One wrong interpretation leads to another.

We have to be careful how we build. A weak block at the bottom may cause the whole structure to lean the wrong way later.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL sounds like this woman who called herself an evangelist that I had a run in with.

She said God would never hurt anyone for any reason. She said why would a God who is love hurt anyone?

I said "poor Jesus, He suffered for nothing then".

She got so mad she banned me from her webcast.

The answer jsot, is Jesus. "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son." {8T 286.1}

Did Jesus kill? Did Jesus destroy? Did God kill Jesus? NOPE. Jesus ministry was one of healing. Jesus IS the answer. How did Jesus treat the woman taken in adultery? Even more telling, how did Jesus treat her accusers?

Or the in John 5, Jesus healed the paralytic. Did God punish the paralytic, is that why he was paralyzed? NOPE. His own sinful behavior brought it on. Jesus warned him to sin no more, less something worse happen.

Jesus revealed at the cross the real cause of suffering and death. And it is NOT God. It is sin. The wages sin pays, is death. Sin when it is full grown, brings forth death. And those that hold on to their sin, will die, no question. THE question is how is God involved.

Is your ministry jsot, one of healing?

How many sites have you been banned from jsot? Just curious...

Man you really do not know scripture very well do you APL?

"Riches, power, genius, eloquence, pride, perverted reason, and passion are enlisted as Satan’s agents in doing his work in making the broad road attractive, strewing it with tempting flowers. But every word they have spoken against the world’s Redeemer will be reflected back upon them, and will one day burn into their guilty souls like molten lead. They will be overwhelmed with terror and shame as they behold the exalted One coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Then shall the bold defier, who lifted himself up against the Son of God, see himself in the true blackness of his character. The sight of the inexpressible glory of the Son of God will be intensely painful to those whose characters are stained with sin. The pure light and glory emanating from Christ will awaken remorse, shame, and terror. They will send forth wails of anguish to the rocks and mountains, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” {Con 87.1}

When Jesus came the first time it was to heal, the second time it will be to gather His people and destroy the wicked with the brightness of His coming.

If you think because you teach that Jesus does not destroy that your ministry is one of healing and mine is evil then you are deceived.

And about your last question..."How many sites have you been banned from jsot? Just curious..." I would say that is something the devil would ask to get people to see me as evil.

Jesus said "beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues." Matthew 10:17

APL You think you get to turn people against me for your own amusement. You will be very ashamed very soon.

Matthew 21

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

I was praying on this to make sure not to speak in my own words. Here is what I am privileged to share.

God has led me to find people who are in need all over the world.

This message that I am sharing with you in this thread is for advanced lessons. You claim to have superior knowledge that directly contradicts what my God has shown me. This is why I am compelled to take you on in this issue. Yet with all the proof I have supplied you will not be swayed. This what my God has shown me.

About the healing...

Jesus led me away from being a minor rock and roll celebrity to follow Him, and this alone taught thousands of people about our Faith. So many people asked why I left. It gave opportunity to share.

God has led me to open a smoothie shop that taught thousands of people about the Sabbath and the Health Reform message thorough bible studies etc. I invested 5 years of my life there serving God.

God has given miracles over and over thorough me for others and He continually gives powerful answers to prayer for leading in truth.

I helped build three churches in America, and was asked to give testimony and sermons regarding the visions and dreams God has given me.

He has led me around the word to help people. He has given me the means to independently build churches in Indonesia. He gave me the Holy Spirit to teach others and lead them to baptism.

You want to know how to make a person burn? It is very simple.

Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: 22 For you shall heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD shall reward you.

Romans 12:20 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head.

Keep up the good work! But good works will not save you. Read Ezekiel 18. Read Romans.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The wicked will be destroyed. No question. They will die just as Jesus demonstrated how they will die when he died. And how was God involved? Did God execute Jesus???? NOPE.

Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

You can not command anyone to love. You can not force anyone to love.

The last message of mercy, illuminating in its power, is God's Character of Love. COL 415. And IF you read that, read ST Jan 20, 1890 while you are at it.

OH - and you do know who the speakers being quoted are in Matthew 21:41, right? Hint - it was not Jesus.

That is their reward before the 2nd coming of the Lord, the beginning of their fear, which has an opportunity to work for their salvation. By being helpful or trying to help those who hate you, it brings the opportunity of their repentance.

Psalm 120:4 "Sharp arrows of the mighty, with coals of juniper."

"For the more we know God, the more intense will be our happiness, and the lips that are willing to speak, though unclean, will be touched with the living coals and purified. They will be enabled to speak words that will burn their way to the soul." {OW December 1, 1909, par. 12}

This is to work on their hearts to lead them to salvation before the second coming.

This is speaking the truth of scripture, not just being nice, it is using the words of God to speak truth like Jesus did when being tempted. This heaps coals on their heads and they become responsible to God for how they receive it from that point on. If they receive it and kill the messenger like they did the Prophets and the Son, what kind of coals do you think it heaps on their heads?

The coals of the altar of incense are what cleansed the mouth of the prophet because he wanted to be cleansed. This righteous fire was lit by the same fire that torments the wicked, come down from God out of heaven.

In contrast those who speak the words of confusion or Babylon are burning "strange fire" before the Lord, and what happened to Nadab and Abihu for burning strange fire before Him? They were consumed by righteous fire.

Numbers 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the Lord, when they offered strange fire before the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai,...

Those coals can either save or give torment to those who are against God through His people who speak the truth. Every time we bless those who curse us, it gives God the power to do what is right in the situation. That does not mean we should not try to present the truth before the witnesses of the conflagration, it just means that we are believing through Faith that God rewards our deeds and those who persecute us.

If they are warned in truth yet refuse or reject the seed from heaven then they get rewarded after probation, when the plagues are falling until Jesus shows up, and this is not the end.

They get fully reward at the second resurrection where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and men sweat blood for their own sins because they neglected forgiveness. This is where the Spirit of God has fully withdrawn from the earth and demons are forced to show themselves while Gog and Magog are resurrected. They will be shown the lies that led them to hell, and when they turn on Satan in their anger, that is when the fires of hell come from the shining sword of truth held by the angel guarding the way to the tree of life to devour them.

I can prove all of this through scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, but you will not be taught by me.

"A council was held in heaven, the result of which was that God’s dear Son undertook to redeem man from the curse and the disgrace of Adam’s failure, and to conquer Satan. Oh, wonderful condescension! The Majesty of heaven, through love and pity for fallen man, proposed to become his substitute and surety. He would bear man’s guilt. He would take the wrath of His Father upon Himself, which otherwise would have fallen upon man because of his disobedience. {Con 16.3}

Did Jesus sin? No. The wages of sin is death, but Jesus died. Why?

“Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father’s wrath upon Him as man’s substitute that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God." {DA 753.2}



I underlined that response from the chief priests and scribes for the fact that even those men who were committing the highest crime against God through persecuting Christ, understood what would be the outcome of that parable. So if those blind men could figure it out why can't you?

They were being loured into pronouncing there own fate, this technique was used by the prophets to bring condemnation on those who would not repent or to bring them to repentance.

Remember when David Killed Uriah the Hittite so he could take Bathsheba? The prophet came and told him the parable of the rich man taking the lamb from the man who only had one, and David pronounced His own curse. But he repented.

Pharaoh pronounced his own curse when he hardened his heart against the descendants of Jacob and commanded all the first born of Israel should be killed. Then his own first born descendants died because of his pronouncement.

These pharisees were pronouncing their own fate, and they called to heaven saying let His blood be upon our heads. If you don't think God is involved in that execution of judgment you are wrong.

God wrath - - clearly defined in Romans 1. God did not execute Christ. Christ took our sin on Himself, 1 Peter 2:24. What killed Christ was sin. The wrath of God is His giving up, letting go. A removal on the enmity put in place against sin in the beginning, Genesis 3:15. The death of Christ is proof, that sin pays its wage, death.

If you say what you believe enough times, it might be true, right? At the very least, it will impact your own thinking to the point where you will firmly believe it. I'm sure you believe it beyond all possibility of persuasion to the contrary by now. Let it rest. This topic was about the correct interpretation of 1 Peter 3:18-20. Let's get back to that.

Have we settled the question of the proper interpretation? Do we understand the term "spirits in prison?" I believe they represent sin-bound souls. I believe the Holy Spirit worked through Noah's preaching and building of the ark to witness to many in his day who were in bondage to sin. I see Peter as telling us that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross enabled God's Spirit to witness to even those who lived before the Flood.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Take a dig and then run? OK, fine. But who is the one entrenched in their ideas, not open to what the word says? As Jesus says, repent (change your mind) and believe the good news! Mark 1:14-15.

In the name of Jesus I completely support this statement.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. ESV

Only eight found the truth in those days, how many do you think are going to get it right now? Maybe a 144,000 out of 7 BILLION...

Notice how the main word in question in most debates on this subject deal with the word 'spirit' or 'spirits'.

But look at the pronoun that establishes the motive for the next sentence. "in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach".

The pronoun 'which' comes from the Greek word 'hos' and occurs 1207 times in scripture, and is as commonly translated 'who' or 'whom' as it is 'which'.

Put that word in this place and see the true intent of these sentences.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in whom he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in who a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

The only way Jesus can "bring us to God" in any generation is through the Holy Spirit, a 'who' not a 'which' or a what.

If you look at the Greek, then compare other parts of scripture that relate to the 1 Peter 3:18. The term spirit here does not necessarily mean Holy Spirit, and most likely does not. The previous post uses the ESV which is probably a better translation than the KJV on this verse. So the latter part of v18, “put to death indeed, in flesh, but made alive in spirit”. Christ died and was resurrected. (Romans 1:3-4; 1 Timothy 3:16) Who raised Christ? Romans 6:4; Galatians 1:1.

v19 spirits here means living beings. Prison, this is all our state with respect to sin. 2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

v20 speaking of Noah's day, the antediluvian were without excuse, for God provided a way of escape, and they rejected it.

I am confident God is leading here. I woke up with the answer in my heart from God. Thank you Father.

This text from 1 Peter 3 is using Noah's Ark as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

Here is how it should be translated in our language to illustrate true faith, in the name of Jesus amen.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the (Holy) Spirit, in whom He went and proclaimed to the souls in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water."

The Greek word 'pneuma' is translated both Spirit and spirits here. That word is righteously translated mainly into 1) Holy Spirit, 2)human soul, 3)breath/air/wind. They translated this text with the mindset that the soul disembarks from our body at death and we as Adventists know that is heresy. So this should be corrected.

But if you look carefully, it says; "that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the (Holy) Spirit". We are brought to God through Christ and the Holy Spirit by being put to death in the flesh, then we are made alive through the Holy Spirit just like Jesus was. Jesus became one of us so He could save us...

Colossians 1: 21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

Hebrews 5:7 "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence."

1 Peter 3:18 is saying Jesus came and died and was made alive again through the Holy Spirit so He could bring the faithful before the Father through the same Holy Spirit that empowered Him to be resurrected like the ark that saved the eight souls from the flood.

So the first use of 'Spirit' is used for the Holy Spirit, and should be capitalized.

"Souls" is the second most used way of translating the Greek word 'Pneuma' and that word 'spirits' is used when 'souls' would be more appropriate in that place. The proof is in the fact that the eight 'souls' were brought through the flood and this is used to show who the 'spirits' are in reference to.

God told me this would resonate with the faithful here.

Let's look at another reference, the SDABC.

Textual evidence attests (cf. p. 10) the reading “in spirit” or “as to spirit.” The reading “by the Spirit” (en t&#333; pneumati) has no ancient manuscript support. The latter part of the verse may literally be translated “put to death, indeed, in flesh [sarki], but made alive in spirit [pneumati].” The parallel constructions, “in spirit” and “in flesh,” seem to be against the idea that the Holy Spirit is here referred to. In other words, consistency seems to require that we translate either “in flesh … in spirit” or “by the flesh [meaning “by the human being”] … by the Spirit.” However, the reading, “by the human being,” is not used elsewhere in the NT, and hardly seems to make sense. Elsewhere in the NT when the expression “in flesh … in spirit,” or its equivalent, is used of Christ, “flesh” refers to Christ’s earthly existence as a human being and “spirit” to His existence as a divine being following the resurrection. Compare the remarkably similar antithesis in Rom_1:3-4 (see comment there). Incarnate, Christ was, to all appearances, a human being; after the resurrection, though retaining His human nature, He became again essentially a spirit being (see Vol. V, pp. 917-919; cf. Joh_4:24). Compare also 1Ti_3:16, where the Greek reads literally, “in flesh” and “in spirit.” Note the parallel expressions in 1Pe_4:6, “in the flesh” and “in the spirit,” applied to human beings (see comment there). For further clarification of the meaning and force of Peter’s statement see Rom_14:9; 2Co_13:4.

The fact that Christ truly died “in the flesh” did not mean the end of His existence. At the resurrection He was “made alive” once more, although from that time forth His human nature was more completely subordinated to His divine, or “spirit” nature (see on Luk_24:39; cf. Vol. V, pp. 918, 919), than when He lived on earth as a man among men. The sublime fact that the crucified Christ lives on is here set forth as an assurance that those who partake of His sufferings need not fear that the persecution they suffer will end forever their existence (cf. 2Co_13:4). Christ triumphed over death, and those who suffer with Him are likewise sure to come victoriously through the fiery trials of life. Compare Paul’s argument in 1Co_15:13-23, where He sets forth our Lord’s resurrection as a guarantee that those who fall asleep in Jesus will live again.


1 Corinthians 15:15-17 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

So, you would be saying you disagree with Ellen White then? She says God is not the destroyer. One who destroys is a destroyer, right, or do you have some other definition?

Re 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. {Apollyon: that is to say, A destroyer }
(KJV)

Or is KJV wrong here?

kland,

Mrs. White says Jesus accuses. She also says He is not the accuser of the brethren. Which is right?

Only mature minds can understand these things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL, Is he saying you need to have a more hostile and destroying type of view of God or it will impact your own thinking and cause you to believe that God is love instead of destruction? It might even impact how you live your life and cause you to treat others with love rather than saying, you have limits and they crossed the line and so you will destroy them.

God did say turn your face if someone strikes you. So, once they hit you twice, then it is fully in your place to beat the daylights out of them! All in the right spirit of "christian love" of course.

kland - you remind me of this statement, "It is a law of the human mind that by beholding we become changed." {PP 91.2}

Who has a mature mind? What is the work of the Holy Spirit?