Love me or I'll kill you!

Imagine newlyweds. The husband takes his bride in his arms and say, I have great plans for you. I will treat you as a queen and give you everything you ever wanted. I will cherish you and lavish my love upon you. I only ask you to love me. As long as you love me, all these things I will do for you. But,....

(Always that "but")

....But, if you give any indication that you do not love me, I will beat you to a pulp, making sure that you suffer. I've done it to my past wives, but only as long as I felt they deserve. Then I end their life. I will have the same mercy on you. Now won't you love me forever?

The bride trembling ever so barely noticeably looks him in the eye and stammers as confidently as she can muster, Ya-Yes, of course.



Do you think she really loves him? Could she really love him? Ever, as long as she believes he holds that view or capacity?

kland - you make me thing of a quotation,

"The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1} "

Wow, this is so very revealing in your emotional state.

I find it so interesting that you used this analogy to make your point, because you sound more like a psychologist than an evangelist here.

The bible uses the exact same idea that God is the husband and His wife is the church.

"The unfaithfulness of the church to Christ in permitting her confidence and affection to be turned from Him, and allowing the love of worldly things to occupy the soul, is likened to the violation of the marriage vow. The sin of Israel in departing from the Lord is presented under this figure; and the wonderful love of God which they thus despised is touchingly portrayed: “I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest Mine.” “And thou wast exceeding beautiful and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My comeliness, which I had put upon thee.... But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown.” “As a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord;” “as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!” Ezekiel 16:8, 13-15, 32; Jeremiah 3:20. {GC 381.3}

So what happened to Israel because of her unfaithfulness when she ABUSED her husband?

Do you know what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD? They were HORRIBLY starved, crucified, and burned to death by Rome. God withdrew his affection for them because they did not repent for ABUSING HIM through His prophets and His Son!

What does scripture say the whore of Babylon will suffer?

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

DID God destroy Jerusalem? NOPE. What happened to Jerusalem is very instructive and should be studied and understood.

Yep, that is so true.

So true again.

Could "judgment" here mean the same as the judgment of Israel?

I see APL responded first. Looks like the same message.

Deuteronomy
30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

"Thou shalt love". "These things I command you, that ye love".

Mark
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

John
13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

1 John
3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

2 John
1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Galatians 6:7-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

MM - was EGW wrong when she said, "love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority."

"Love me or I'll kill you" has always seemed to me to be the skeptics' argument against God's love. I never really thought it could be true. But in the statements I see posted above from the Bible, I'm coming to see there's a lot more truth in it than I might ever have thought. Wow.

Of course, God doesn't express it exactly in that manner. But it is still a fact that those who do not love God will perish.

Thank you all for the scriptures.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - there is not doubt that those that do not love God will perish. The question is, if you do not love God, then does God execute you? So far from this thread, the vote is, 3-YES, God executes sinners if you do not love Him, and 2-NO.

EGW is clear, you can not command love. Is EGW wrong??? MM and Green think so, IF I have read this thread correctly.

I think, APL, it is the devil that wishes there were no requirement of love in God's law. Are you defending his position?

I don't think EGW meant what you are asserting. There are other statements that add to her teaching on the topic, and perhaps the one you refer to is applicable within a certain context. Here is a balancing statement.



Would you like to know what Mrs. White says about the teaching that God is love and does not execute judgment, APL? She sees it as a species of "spiritualism." Look carefully at the following quote.



Again, this is Satan's teaching that we are addressing in this thread, and the very title of the thread puts the topic in the light that Satan would have it. He wants us to believe that God is burdening us with unloving laws. Satan would have us think that God's requirement of love is unjust, unfair, and that He is not loving. Of course, the opposite is true.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - I agree with you. This thread is addressing the teaching of Satan. It is Satan that says, if you do not follow God, He will kill you.

You say, "I don't think EGW meant what you are asserting.". Really?? She says, "love cannot be commanded". But you say this means love can be commanded? Can love be forced? NO, I think I interpreted EGW right.

The quotation from DD 22.1 should be read in context. It is from the same book I quoted, The Great Controversy. After all, this is one of the issues of the controversy; Does God execute those that disagree with Him?


What is the "weak sentimentalism" EGW it talking about? It is that God will not really allow the natural consequences to take place. God is love, and will save all! No, He will not and He CANNOT. That also would be a violation of His character. Continuing in Great Controversy, "All who indulge sinful traits of character, or willfully cherish a known sin, are inviting the temptations of Satan. They separate themselves from God and from the watchcare of His angels; as the evil one presents his deceptions, they are without defense and fall an easy prey. Those who thus place themselves in his power little realize where their course will end. Having achieved their overthrow, the tempter will employ them as his agents to lure others to ruin. {GC 558.3}"

How is the ruin brought about? Does God then step in an execute sinners? NO. Sinners reap that which they sow. The punishment is intrinsic. It is really you Green that is saying sin does not have consequences!!! You say the only reason there are consequences is that God has to enforce them. If God did not enforce them, then there would be no consequences. Wrong. The wages of sin is death, not execution by God. Romans 6:23. Sin, which IT is finished, brings forth death, James 1:15. This was demonstrated by Christ. Christ was not executed by God.

This is precisely where your logic leads you astray, and probably many others similarly. You equate "command" with "force." This is a fallacy of logic that renders the rest of the equation false.

God gives us commands. I'm sure you would agree that indeed the Bible gives us many of God's commands. But God does not force our choice, does He? We are free to choose to obey the law, and live according to God's will and plan, or to break the law, and with it face the penalty of the law. This is our choice.

It is NOT our choice to choose what the penalty of the law will be. That is God's sole domain. We can merely choose whether or not we will live in compliance with God's requirements.

To say that God is not fair in enforcing the penalty of the law, when God has already freely permitted us to choose another path and we have despised it, is to accept Satan's argument that God is not fair. This is, according to Mrs. White, a form of spiritualism.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

She was not wrong she was stating the facts. If God withdraws His protection from men, even if this is all He did it, it would be like snuffing out the flame of a candle, they are cursed and they are marked for destruction in the second death, is this not God's right?

But what happens to those who do not love God?

A marriage is between two parties not one. So there is an agreement between us and God. If we do not break the covenant then we are loving God. If we break the covenant we are loving Satan, and what is going to happen to Satan?

quoting APL "DID God destroy Jerusalem? NOPE. What happened to Jerusalem is very instructive and should be studied and understood."

You obviously do not believe in the Spirit of Prophecy...
I am going to be forward here so please do not edit this response.

"For nearly forty years after the doom of Jerusalem had been pronounced by Christ Himself, the Lord delayed His judgments upon the city and the nation. Wonderful was the long-suffering of God toward the rejectors of His gospel and the murderers of His Son. The parable of the unfruitful tree represented God’s dealings with the Jewish nation. The command had gone forth, “Cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?” (Luke 13:7) {GC 27.3}

So the fig tree with no figs is a parable for the Jewish nation, and the early church and the Christian church (This all can be proven) So why did the tree die? It was because of their hatred for God in their actions thoughts and words.

"Christ uttered against it a withering curse. “No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever,” He said. The next morning, as the Saviour and His disciples were again on their way to the city, the blasted branches and drooping leaves attracted their attention. “Master,” said Peter, “behold, the fig tree which Thou cursedst is withered away.” {DA 582.1} Christ’s act in cursing the fig tree had astonished the disciples. It seemed to them unlike His ways and works. Often they had heard Him declare that He came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. They remembered His words, “The Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” Luke 9:56. His wonderful works had been done to restore, never to destroy. The disciples had known Him only as the Restorer, the Healer. This act stood alone. What was its purpose? they questioned. {DA 582.2}
God “delighteth in mercy.” “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Micah 7:18; Ezekiel 33:11. To Him the work of destruction and the denunciation of judgment is a “strange work.” Isaiah 28:21. But it is in mercy and love that He lifts the veil from the future, and reveals to men the results of a course of sin. {DA 582.3}
The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel’s doom. For this purpose He invested the tree with moral qualities, and made it the expositor of divine truth. The Jews stood forth distinct from all other nations, professing allegiance to God. They had been specially favored by Him, and they laid claim to righteousness above every other people. But they were corrupted by the love of the world and the greed of gain. They boasted of their knowledge, but they were ignorant of the requirements of God, and were full of hypocrisy. Like the barren tree, they spread their pretentious branches aloft, luxuriant in appearance, and beautiful to the eye, but they yielded “nothing but leaves.” The Jewish religion, with its magnificent temple, its sacred altars, its mitered priests and impressive ceremonies, was indeed fair in outward appearance, but humility, love, and benevolence were lacking. {DA 582.4}
The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour’s curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. “O Israel,” the Lord says, “thou hast destroyed thyself.” Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}
The warning is for all time. Christ’s act in cursing the tree which His own power had created stands as a warning to all churches and to all Christians. No one can live the law of God without ministering to others. But there are many who do not live out Christ’s merciful, unselfish life. Some who think themselves excellent Christians do not understand what constitutes service for God. They plan and study to please themselves.
By Christ’s act in cursing the barren fig tree, the result was shown. They had determined their own destruction. {DA 584.2}
For more than a thousand years the Jewish nation had abused God’s mercy and invited His judgments. They had rejected His warnings and slain His prophets. For these sins the people of Christ’s day made themselves responsible by following the same course. In the rejection of their present mercies and warnings lay the guilt of that generation. The fetters which the nation had for centuries been forging, the people of Christ’s day were fastening upon themselves. {DA 584.3}
In every age there is given to men their day of light and privilege, a probationary time in which they may become reconciled to God. But there is a limit to this grace. Mercy may plead for years and be slighted and rejected; but there comes a time when mercy makes her last plea. The heart becomes so hardened that it ceases to respond to the Spirit of God. Then the sweet, winning voice entreats the sinner no longer, and reproofs and warnings cease. {DA 587.1}
That day had come to Jerusalem. Jesus wept in anguish over the doomed city, but He could not deliver her. He had exhausted every resource. In rejecting the warnings of God’s Spirit, Israel had rejected the only means of help. There was no other power by which they could be delivered. {DA 587.2}
The Jewish nation was a symbol of the people of all ages who scorn the pleadings of Infinite Love. The tears of Christ when He wept over Jerusalem were for the sins of all time. In the judgments pronounced upon Israel, those who reject the reproofs and warnings of God’s Holy Spirit, may read their own condemnation. {DA 587.3}

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

This is where you are wrong. The penalty of sin is intrinsic. Sin pays it wage. You see God as the executioner. Sin is a legal problem. One who keeps the law of a sense of obligation merely, indeed does not keep the law.

Did God destroy Jerusalem? Did God execute Christ? NOPE.

I just love the selective reasoning of men who say stuff like "if you don't love me I'll kill you" in regards to God's justice.

You quoted this much of a statement from Ellen White... "love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority."

But if continue on in that exact same quote, she then says this near the end;

Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” {DA 25.2}

Jesus suffered second death, being cut off from the Father so we do not have to suffer it ourselves yet you think this had nothing to do with God and His righteousness.

It is as if you believe as the Vatican teaches that Satan is in control of hell. Satan will burned with fire just as the wicked will and this punishment comes directly from the Father.

Love cannot be commanded and love cannot be fabricated.

It is by love that we learn to love and this separates those who truly love from those who try to earn salvation through keeping the commandments. That was what she was saying.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Realizing our fate is in the hands of God leads us to repentance.

When we see His love we learn to love but this is not a part of us from birth, we are born WITHOUT this love, so it is a learned element of faith. Not something from ourselves so in essence without the guidance and example of God through Jesus it is impossible to truly love unselfishly.

So there is NO MARRIAGE without the love of Christ guiding us to God.

Actually that's not quite true. Sin is a quantum cosmology problem.

One thing for sure, sin is NOT a legal problem.

I just love the selective reasoning of men who say stuff like "if you don't love me I'll kill you" in regards to God's justice.

You quoted this much of a statement from Ellen White... "love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." 

OK - is this true or not???? YES - it is true.

But if continue on in that exact same quote, she then says this near the end;

Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” {DA 25.2}

YES - SIN Killed Him. Not God.

Jesus suffered second death, being cut off from the Father so we do not have to suffer it ourselves yet you think this had nothing to do with God and His righteousness.

And WHAT caused the separation from the Father? SIN. The Father is not the cause of the separation.

It is as if you believe as the Vatican teaches that Satan is in control of hell. Satan will burned with fire just as the wicked will and this punishment comes directly from the Father.

SIN is the the cause of all suffering and death. It is like Satan to accuse God of being a tyrant and a murder. But on the day of final judgement, God will stand clear of the origin and continuation of sin.

Love cannot be commanded and love cannot be fabricated.

It is by love that we learn to love and this separates those who truly love from those who try to earn salvation through keeping the commandments. That was what she was saying.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Realizing our fate is in the hands of God leads us to repentance.

Interesting. My Bible tells me that it is the KINDNESS OF GOD that leads us to repentance. Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

When we see His love we learn to love but this is not a part of us from birth, we are born WITHOUT this love, so it is a learned element of faith. Not something from ourselves so in essence without the guidance and example of God through Jesus it is impossible to truly love unselfishly.

So there is NO MARRIAGE without the love of Christ guiding us to God.

So EGW is right!!! "Only by love is love awakened." And what if we do not love Him back? He will kill you!!! (NOT) You will perish, but not by execution.

APL,

As I've considered this constant tension between the two sides on this issue, I am led to believe that there is a misunderstanding contributing to this. Yes, I see God as the executioner. But it's not what you think. I do NOT see God as being vengeful, capricious, arbitrary, unfair, unjust, unforgiving, unmerciful, or impatient. God does not execute justice for any of our sin-tainted reasons which color our perception of how God may be acting. You see, God has no sin. What He does is done in perfect fairness and love.



As Mrs. White points out, never in earth's history has there ever been a judgment of God poured out without mercy. Always before, God's judgments have been tempered with mercy. So we have no Biblical example of something already past in which God's justice can be perfectly seen for what it will be in the end. We have glimpses, though, such as that of Sodom.

In the end, all of the watching universe will wonder at God's patience, and will desire the judgment, almost impatiently, as if God had waited too long to execute His justice. This is the fascinating part, to me. While looking for the statement that speaks of this, which I've read but don't remember where, I found a couple of others.





Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to strike Egypt, and when he sees the blood on the top of the doorframe and the two side posts, then the LORD will pass over the door, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.

Yes APL, and who had to die instead? The lamb. For the sins we had already committed before God saved us from our selfishness.

You think like a person who believes that we are on an equal playing ground with God. Like we are god's ourselves instead of born into wicked shame that we must be saved from.

She did not contradict the passages I posted.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all." Jude 14, 15.

Besides the coming of the Lord to His temple, Malachi also foretells His second advent, His coming for the execution of the judgment, in these words: "And I will come near
426
to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not Me, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 3:5. Jude refers to the same scene when he says, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15. This coming, and the coming of the Lord to His temple, are distinct and separate events. {GC 425.3}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. . . . While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who become hardened in sin. . . . And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {CC 155.4}

No Green - I do not believe that God is the executioner. The judgements of God are of the manner of declarations of truth. You sin, you will die. Sin causes death. This is not how you see it. This is the different. You say, "you sin, then I will kill you". Not only that, you say, "I will kill you out of love, out of the kindness of my heart".

If the plan of redemption was not put into action in the beginning of sin with man, humans would have perished. Not because of God killing them, but because sin would have destroyed them. "In the day you eat, you will die". It does not say, "in the day you eat, I will execute you".
Many points could be make, but I point out 3.
1) the nature or consequences of sin - - Sin kills, it destroys. But Green says, it is God that kills.
2) a perpetual testimony to the nature of sin and ITS terrible results. Sin kills and destroys. But Green says, it is God that kills and destroys.
3) to prevent us from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, and suffer its penalty. Sin kills, it is sin that destroys. But Green says, the penalty of sin is execution by God.

You suggest Green that that last plagues are caused by God. Are they? NO. They are caused by Satan when God removes His protection.

MM:
Did God execute judgement on Jerusalem? YES
Was Jerusalem destroyed? YES
Is the destruction of Jerusalem a warning to us? YES
Was God the cause of the destruction of Jerusalem? NO

Speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem:

Kind of an eye opener isn't it? If we were to take the same position as skeptics, where does that leave us?


Yes, the husband is killing the bride in 'perfect fairness and love'. He is killing his bride who does not love him, purely out of his love for her.

(Does that make any sense whatsoever? )



It comes down to one's view of God.

Do you believe Ellen White when she says God is the restorer and not the destroyer?

If you believe God is the restorer, then everything you read you will either see God restoring or you will see that you must have misread something, and keep searching to make what appears to be to fit in that God is not the one destroying.

Likewise, if you believe God is the destroyer, then everything you read, you will see Him as destroying, and those places where it appears otherwise, you will assume you must have misread it and keep searching to make what appears to be to fit in that God does indeed destroy.

It's much like the evolutionists. They see as an absolute fact that God did not create life. Therefore, anything that appears not to have evolved on it's own, they spin it to make it so. Creationists do the same. It's a matter of your presumed premise.

So when you read things like:
1Ch 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
1Ch 10:14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

and if you believe God destroys, then is there any further need to understand it? It's as plain as day that God slew Saul, the Bible tells you so, therefore you don't need to think any more. Right?

So which is it? Is God the destroyer or the restorer?

Genesis 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made I will destroy from off the face of the earth.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Psalm 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.

Tell me APL, who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha? Did fire NOT come from heaven? Are you saying the devil sent fire from heaven to destroy the wicked in those cities?

Do you remember Jesus saying, "as it was in the days of Lot so shall it be at the coming of the son of man"?

Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

You prove to whom you listen to and serve by your testimony in this issue.

If we do not permit God to restore us, He reluctantly destroys us so there will be harmony throughout His creation.

I am shocked, I had no idea you were this far away from truth Kland.

Where do you get the idea that God is on our level? Where you born perfect?

If the woman I wanted to marry treated the truth as most in our church do, I would never have married her in the first place.

The analogy of the husband and wife is when we accept his forgiveness and receive His seal, so where do the people who never accept God fit in your analogy? Does he not destroy those who hate Him?

What about those who break the marriage covenant?

"No stronger delusion can possess the human mind than that which makes men believe they are on the right foundation, and that God accepts their works, when they are sinning against him. When placed in the furnace fire to be tried by the great Refiner, much that has been esteemed fine gold will be consumed as dross. Can Christ say of his professed followers, These are my peculiar people; I gave myself for them, to redeem them from all iniquity, that they should show forth my praise, who have called them out of darkness into my marvelous light. Would not the Lord say, rather, How is the beautiful city become a harlot, and my Father’s house a place of merchandise. Because of your unbelief, I cannot do many mighty works among you. (changing us into HIS IMAGE is the mighty work) The same spirit is coming into the church. However guilty a wrong-doer may be, however lamentable the results of his course, he will find sympathizers. When he is reproved, there are unconsecrated ones who stand ready to sustain him. By their unwise sympathy, they lead him to look upon himself as abused, and thus they effectually bar his way to repentance and reform. {RH November 7, 1882, par. 14}

(This is what is happening in this discussion right now! You are proving yourselves.)

The approval of men—even of professed Christians—is no evidence of the favor of God. The Christian experience of thousands is gauged by the standard of those who profess to love the truth and to be servants of Christ, but who serve Satan. In their blindness and self-complacency, many are saying, “I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing,” when Christ declares that they are poor and miserable, blind and naked. To such he addresses the solemn admonition, “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.” {RH November 7, 1882, par. 15}

We all must go through the furnace of affliction so we may purged of evil. Evil dies in the flames but those who love God are purified.

APL, it sounds as though you believe God
does not mete out punishment Himself.

Perhaps APL and kland believe that it is a bad thing to destroy sinners. If their own mothers or children were in danger of being shot by an armed robber in their home, they would not want to call in the police, because the robber might get killed. And if the robber were killed, the police would have sinned because they didn't love the robber. And, of course, there's no way that they would choose to kill the robber themselves. Just let him keep on pillaging the home and harming its occupants. That would be the loving thing to do.

Satan is the robber. He is destroying God's children and stealing their joy. Does God love the Sinner too much to stop him?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Seem? MM, I'm disappointed. Am I that obscure? God does not have to "mete out punishment". The punishment of sin is intrinsic to the Sin. That is what makes sin so evil. EGW has make it clear in the quotes I have provided before how it is that sinners suffer punishment.Green likes to twist things to say that I believe sinners will not be punished. But nothing could be farther from the truth. THE question is how is God involved? Read Patriarchs and Prophets, chapter 1, "What was sin permitted?". It was permitted because of the accusations of Satan. If the sinners, Satan and his followers, were allowed to reap the natural consequences of sin, they would have perished. The on looking universe would not have understood the result of sin because of the lies Satan had told. The universe would have served God from FEAR. Toe the line or He will kill you!!! Nothing could be farther from the truth. The real truth is that if you reject God, then He will let you have your way, in fact freedom demands that He must, let you go. And you will die. God is not the destroyer. God is not the executioner. And we are believing Satan when we believe He is the destroyer. Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.

Green has a problem. God had the power to stop Satan in the beginning. Why didn't he?

I suppose God didn't, per your view, because that would make Him look like a destroyer, and sin would automatically self-destruct the sinner (Satan), with a grand display of fireworks, in precisely 7,100 years, so why not just wait for sin to have its natural effect?

Is this what you believe? Or do you believe that Satan would naturally desire to commit suicide at the end of the allotted time?

APL, we all understand very well the reason that God permitted sin to exist for a time. But let's face it--God does not permit sin forever. There is a limit to His mercy. Were it not thus, sin could exist forever. We, as humans, might be mortals. The Bible never once refers to angels, even the fallen ones, as mortals. They are immortal beings. Only God who created them can remove them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God did not stop Satan immediately because it would not have stopped the sin problem.

He let the lies of Satan run their course so the results could be witnessed by all of God's creation and this way the sin problem will never raise it's ugly head again after it is expunged.

"...The teaching of this parable is illustrated in God’s own dealing with men and angels. Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God’s goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character. Through long ages God has borne the anguish of beholding the work of evil, He has given the infinite Gift of Calvary, rather than leave any to be deceived by the misrepresentations of the wicked one; for the tares could not be plucked up without danger of uprooting the precious grain. And shall we not be as forbearing toward our fellow men as the Lord of heaven and earth is toward Satan? {COL 72.2}
The Saviour does not point forward to a time when all the tares become wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. Then the tares are bound in bundles to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the garner of God. “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” Then “the Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” {COL 75.1}

Green - you do not know the scriptures. Your assertion that angels are immortal fails. The angels are mortal. The Bible is very clear. There is only ONE being that is immortal. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 ... the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach to; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

The end of Satan is sure. If he had been left to reap the natural consequences of his sin, he would have perished. The death of Christ is answers the question of how God is involved with the second death.

You should cut GC some slack APL.

He is very knowledgeable and respectful of the truth.

The angels are not immortal without connection to God, they were created under probation just as we were, he was not immortal without God.

They can live longer in a fallen condition without access to God.

But I believe If Satan would have remained in the void of the pit after his fall, He is aging and would have died from old age.

But GC is correct on this issue. God is responsible for the destruction of the wicked angels because they cut themselves off from His mercy.

Just because he got that one point wrong does not make him wrong in his assessment.

APL,

Thankfully I have access to the pure Word of God and am enabled by it to discern truth from error. The devil, in his temptations of Christ, also quoted scripture. Scripture must be properly used.

You improperly quoted the Bible. You left the elipses there to show that you had shortened your quote. The fuller quote gives us the fuller context, and if you start one verse before, you see exactly Who it is that "only has immortality." You see that it is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the only immortal human. I'll quote the fuller passage for easy review.



We can learn more about the immortal state of angels from Mrs. White.



Remember, too, that Adam and Eve might have been immortal sinners, simply by continuing to eat of the Tree of Life.



This tells us that sin, in and of itself, does not kill. In fact, Satan had wanted Adam and Eve to become immortal sinners. The following statement implies that had they, after sinning, eaten of the Tree of Life again, they would have become immortal sinners.



That statement makes it appear as though they would have become "immortalized" by even once eating again of the Tree of Life. If such were not the case, at least Satan hoped so. But they didn't and we are all now mortals as well.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You see it is the Lorg Jesus Christ, God, who ONLY has immortality. You read this to say, the only human, but the verse is clear, only God has immortality. All things were created by Him, and for Him. Only in Him is life original.

Read the quote, there are 2 things being talked about: "equal with the angels and made, thenceforth, immortal. "

Did you read the key word? CONTINUING to eat. Man must continue to eat. I also bet that there will be a Tree of Life in from which man must continue to eat in the earth made new. Why? Man can still "opt out", still have free choice. You will also note that EGW says, "there is not an immortal sinner." Man is not immortal unless they eat of the tree of life. We will be immortal in the new earth, as long as we continue to eat. All will eat!

Actually, this does not tell us exactly what sin would do. Satan's plans were interrupted, God stepped in (Genesis 3:15) and started executing the plan of redemption. The only time we actually have seen what the effects of sin would do, is at the Cross. Christ is the only one that has suffered the natural consequences of sin, demonstrating clearly the results of sin. God did not execute Christ. Sin killed Christ.

Not once, but continually eating of the fruit. Even Satan has suffered the effects of sin and has changed. Sin is the killer. God is not the destroyer.

The angels cut THEMSELVES OFF, so GOD has to destroy them? Which is it? God destroys them, or they destory themselves?

The answer is that they destroy themselves.

One prominent theologian questions what is the difference if God pulls the plug or God pulls trigger? The problem is in his question! God does neither. He does not pull the plug nor pulls the trigger. God stops putting the plug back in after sinners pull the plug out. And He does this because freedom demands it.

Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;

The fire is the same. The righteous can live in it, the sinners are destroyed by it. Same fire! Sin destroys the sinner.

EGW is so clear in Desire of Ages, it is hard to understand how it can be so perverted to declare that God executes sinners. People, change your mind and believe the Good News! Mark 1:14-15.

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

You can't see the forest for the tree in your eye brother.

Are you saying that the righteous fire of God which destroys the sinner is a result of sin? Do you not see you error or are you doing this to be controversial?

How will the Gospel reach a prejudiced mind?

Our job as "evangelists", tellers of GOOD NEWS, is to present the truth. We can never change another's mind. "None but He who created man can effect a change in the human heart."

james - PLEASE, point out where I say what you have just said. PLEASE! Can you? No. Read what EGW has said in the quotes, the answer is very clear.

Are you saying God is both?

Do you disagree with Ellen White when she says, Satan is the destroyer; the Lord is the Restorer?

I'm copying this over from the other thread where it was off-topic, to hopefully continue the discussion here instead.




If you have a mature mind, you should readily understand the distinction between "Jesus accuses" and "the accuser of the brethren." If you are also gifted with the ability of explanation, you should be able to teach someone else the distinction.

The fact is, we have it said of Jesus that He accuses. We also have it said of Satan that he is the accuser. If Mrs. White has not contradicted herself, which I accept that she has not, then there must be a reasonable explanation for the apparent incongruence. The immature mind will not likely get properly past the incongruence, but will choose to reject one of the two facts altogether, and find some way of rationalizing it away. It takes a mature mind to carefully examine the evidence and see how the two seemingly opposing facts are actually in harmony.

I would challenge the thinking of those participating in this thread for their own explanations of this "problem" case. If you can properly explain these facts, then we can move up a step to the case of "the destroyer" versus "destroying" that is so emotionally charged as to be impossible to correctly discern at present in this discussion.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I have found only one place where Ellen uses the expression "Jesus accuses". Would you say that she is using the term in the same meaning as we have been discussing?

[quote]While they were so exact in things which God had never required of them, and were confusing their judgment and lessening the dignity of the divine system of benevolence by their narrow views, they were making clean the outside of the platter while the inside was corrupt. Exact in matters of little consequence, Jesus accuses them of having “omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith.” No outward service, even in that which is required by God, can be a substitute for an obedient life. The Creator desires heart service of his creatures. {3SP 63.1}

You obviously brought over just a snippet of what ever thread you are speaking about. Perhaps you can address the questions raised on this thread? I think this post above is a dodge because you do not have an answer. The only place I see EGW saying Jesus accuses is about those that SHOULD know the law, but do not. Of course, this is a far cry from actually destroying... If you really want to see how God accuses, look at the story of the woman taken in adultery.

This use of propaganda from sinners perspective does not support you testimony APL.

All of you tell me, where does the fire come from that destroys sin?

There are multiple places in inspiration where Jesus destroys.



Apparently, Jesus came to destroy! (And Satan knew this.)



Mrs. White commends Luther in speaking Bible truth in the following statement.



So we have Jesus coming to earth to destroy the devil, and He will destroy death. Then we have Mrs. White interpreting Jesus' own words to say that God will ultimately destroy sinners...



Destruction is God's "strange work." Mrs. White makes multiple references to this.



But the fact that Jesus sometimes "destroys" does not make Him the "destroyer." God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked. He takes no pleasure in their death.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Exactly, if we reject His mission of mercy when He took the righteous punishment that we deserve, we are destroying ourselves.

I love to see it this way. God gave the world a warning through Noah and said a flood was coming.

He told everyone, "I am going to destroy the earth with a flood".

Those who rejected His warning destroyed themselves, but it was till God who sent the flood.

This is the perfect analogy of the Mission of Christ, and as it was in the days of Noah....

What about in the case of the death of all of the firstborn of Egypt?

Were they given the option of placing blood on the door posts as were the firstborn of Israel?

Also, it is more like "Love Me and I'll save you" then it is "Love Me or I'll kill you".

Exactly, the Egyptians had so many signs before it happened.

First the fulfillment of prophecy came to them through Moses being delivered directly into the house of Pharaoh, raised as a son in their household.

When his message of mercy was rejected, God sent the plagues, and when the last plague was about to come and everyone who loved God were placing blood on their door posts, they could have joined them, even if halfheartedly, but they were afraid of their peers or the wrath of Pharaoh so their first born were killed by the angel of God. But even then, after their sons were killed they could have repented and followed, but their hearts were hardened and the pursued God's people to kill them and they were swallowed up by the Red Sea.

How much more could God have done for them to keep them from His wrath? God destroys those who harden their hearts to Him because it keeps His truly devoted safe from them.

***** Inappropriate Content Removed *****

I wouldn't be so judgmental and condescending of those who claim to hear the Still Small Voice if I were you "brother".

"It is impossible for the soul to flourish while prayer is not a special exercise of the mind. Family or public prayer alone is not sufficient. Secret prayer is very important; in solitude the soul is laid bare to the inspecting eye of God, and every motive is scrutinized. Secret prayer! How precious! The soul communing with God! Secret prayer is to be heard only by the prayer-hearing God. No curious ear is to receive the burden of such petitions. In secret prayer the soul is free from surrounding influences, free from excitement. Calmly, yet fervently, will it reach out after God. Secret prayer is frequently perverted, and its sweet designs lost, by loud vocal prayer. Instead of the calm, quiet trust and faith in God, the soul drawn out in low, humble tones, the voice is raised to a loud pitch, and excitement is encouraged, and secret prayer loses its softening, sacred influence. There is a storm of feeling, a storm of words, making it impossible to discern the still, small voice that speaks to the soul while engaged in its secret, true, heartfelt devotion. Secret prayer, properly carried out, is productive of great good. But prayer which is made public to the entire family and neighborhood is not secret prayer, even though thought to be, and divine strength is not received from it. Sweet and abiding will be the influence emanating from Him who seeth in secret, whose ear is open to answer the prayer arising from the heart. By calm, simple faith the soul holds communion with God and gathers to itself divine rays of light to strengthen and sustain it to endure the conflicts of Satan. God is our tower of strength."—(Testimonies for the Church 2:189, 190.) {Pr 178.1}

"It is not always the most learned presentation of God’s truth that convicts and converts the soul. Not by eloquence or logic are men’s hearts reached, but by the sweet influences of the Holy Spirit, which operate quietly yet surely in transforming and developing character. It is the still, small voice of the Spirit of God that has power to change the heart". {PK 169.1}

I would gather by these statements, that anyone not hearing the Still Small Voice are the full of themselves and do not receive the things that God would have for them. So you want to make fun of someone who IS hearing God's voice?

This voice is how I am shown and can discern others who are truly devoted to God, and those who speak to be heard themselves. Do you want to know what He tells me about you?

Even though I removed the inappropriate content from that post, I am allowing the response by JSOT to that post to remain as is, only because it was an acceptable response.

What, Daryl? And this IS appropriate content?

Psalms 78:49-51 He cast on them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

Many of the Egyptians had been led to acknowledge the God of the Hebrews as the only true God, and these now begged to be permitted to find shelter in the homes of Israel when the destroying angel should pass through the land. They were gladly welcomed, and they pledged themselves henceforth to serve the God of Jacob and to go forth from Egypt with His people. {PP 279.2}

QUESTION: Who causes the last plagues? God or Satan? Are not the plagues of Egypt typical of the last plagues?

"save you" from what? God's execution? NO. Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Sin is the cause of all suffering and death. Jesus came to save us from sin, not to save us from Himself!

Dear JAK,

I was praying, asking God how to address you to resolve our conflict, and I was impressed.

I am not here condemn you.

I am only here to share what my God has shown me.

I do not want to be worshiped, I'm not even worthy of being called a Christian.

God showed me that you need to be prayed for, and not to fight with, even though it appears to me that you are bent on trying to hurt me, may God bless you and I hope some day you are able to see what I have been honored and blessed to be lead to in truth.

God will only allow us to see in present truth. He does not reveal everything in scripture all at once, but He gives us clues beyond what we know already in His truth. These clues are to promote us to search for the answers, then when we are ready He reveals what we were searching for.

When we are wrong He will guide us to what is right if we let Him. We can believe anything we want in this world, and it is not a crime to share. But when God reveals what is hidden and we want to deny the new light, holding on to our own beliefs and condemning those who do not agree, we are left behind. We have the right to not move forward, but in God's eyes we do not have the right to condemn those who are ahead of us. I have learned this the hard way, and I hope to keep this lesson close to my heart.

You can say anything you want against me, but if you want to prove that you love God, yet still feel the need to contend with what I have been shown, it would be prudent for you to supply biblical proof of your stand instead of fighting in your own strength.

God loves you, and I will follow His leading in this, but I am flawed and need as much grace as the next man.

The revelations God has given me are for the church. Please deal with the issues in the light of truth so we do not get caught up in the rabble, burying the light.

Everything I have claimed that God has shown me is the truth, but I still do not see all the ends of the matter, but I am willing, and He is able to correct me. I am confident He has lead me here for this purpose. Amen.

I hope your heart is healed. And I hope I get to be proven wrong about you, but I am afraid for you, since you seem bent on throwing dirt on the good things I have seen. I am zealous for the truth and I swear on my life that I do not want to be in error on any point. This has been my desire from the day God lead me to the SDA church.

I only want to be treated with the same respect that you would demand as a man. No more, no less.

I claim God speaks to me through His Still Small Voice and this is the truth. I have been shown that He would speak to all of us if we could only get away from the noise of the world and listen through the light of His word.

That is what I present and have tried to garner for the 18 years that I have had the privilege of calling myself a Seventh Day Adventist. If you want to fight, I am not willing any more, so as I asked before please leave me alone if that is your desire, which it has seemed to me from the first time you responded to me. If I am wrong about that I am sorry, but the evidence in my view shows only that from you.

I hope these debates plant a seed in your heart for the future.

Yes, Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, 1 John 3:8. No question. The question is, is God the source of the destruction of all sinners? The answer is no, sin is the cause of the destruction of sinners. (Romans 6:23; James 1:15) Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer. If you are not restored, you will die! If you will not let God HEAL you, He ultimately needs to let you go. This is a strange work for God. We have seen only one time in all of History, what the result of sin is, and that is the death of Christ. And how was God involved?

Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he that despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, that stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil;

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. ... The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} There is nothing arbitrary about this. There is no execution of sinners, it is sin that kills the sinner. The righteous live in His presence, the wicked die, it is natural consequences of sin.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Thank you for admitting that God is a destroyer. Now, how can He be and not be at one and the same time?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Your legal model of sin, says sin is breaking the rules. The only way to punish a law breaker is by judicial punishment, therefore the entity the made the law must also give the punishment, therefor God is the destroyer. Sin is really not the cause of all the ills we see, there is no INTRINSIC harm from sin, for sin is only a legal problem. Sin is breaking the rules, and this goes against God's law, so really God is the destroyer because the only way to get rid of sin is for God to wipe out the sinner. Therefor God is THE destroyer, and satan is what? just another law breaker? Satan is not the destroyer, for that is God. He is not the restorer we know that. Makes no sense.

I just made a post on MSABOL, therefore I am the creator! If I make a typo in my post, and I go in a correct it, am I then a destroyer? God has made NO mistakes in His creation. But there was one that corrupted God's creation. God will correct the errors. Why? Because sin can not exist in what God has made. Sin creates an instability which will destroy the sinner. The only way to survive is for the sinner to be restored, this is the plan of salvation. The natural consequences of sin were suspended at the start of the sin problem. (chapter 1 of Patriarchs and Prophets - Why was sin permitted). The Glory of God has been veiled. Exodus 33:20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 1 John 3:1-2 Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. OR, “even as he is.” Those who saw Jesus of Nazareth did not see the Son of God as He really is, for His divine glory was veiled by His humanity (see DA-43). But when Christ comes the second time, He will appear in His glory (Matthew 25:31), and those who look upon Him then will behold His true splendor.

So as I posted above:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. ... The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} There is nothing arbitrary about this. There is no execution of sinners, it is sin that kills the sinner. The righteous live in His presence, the wicked die, it is natural consequences of sin. 

Who was the destroyer of the people of Sodom & Gomorrah by fire and brimstone?

Hosea 11:8 How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.Who are Admah and Zeboiim?

???

How should we treat others that show us disrespect?

In bringing forth Israel from Egypt, the Lord again manifested His power and His mercy. His wonderful works in their deliverance from bondage and His dealings with them in their travels through the wilderness were not for their benefit alone. These were to be as an object lesson to the surrounding nations. The Lord revealed Himself as a God above all human authority and greatness. The signs and wonders He wrought in behalf of His people showed His power over nature and over the greatest of those who worshiped nature. God went through the proud land of Egypt as He will go through the earth in the last days. With fire and tempest, earthquake and death, the great I AM redeemed His people. {COL 286.4}

YES, and HOW did God cause all this? By withholding His protection.

Four mighty angels are still holding the four winds of the earth. Terrible destruction is forbidden to come in full. The accidents by land and by sea; the loss of life, steadily increasing, by storm, by tempest, by railroad disaster, by conflagration; the terrible floods, the earthquakes, and the winds will be the stirring up of the nations to one deadly combat, while the angels hold the four winds, forbidding the terrible power of Satan to be exercised in its fury until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. Get ready, get ready, I beseech you, get ready before it shall be forever too late! {RH, June 7, 1887 par. 13}

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. {GC 589.3}

Satan is watching his chances to secure souls to himself and unless we have God's protection, he will break forth in violence and his angels will be set at work to do some marked mischief. The terrible tornadoes, the railroad disasters, the calamities at sea, are because of Satan's wrath. The Lord does not work a miracle to protect those who are constantly working against Himself and strengthening the power of darkness. And this is only the beginning. Their hearts will not repent because they are fully set in them to do evil and that continually. These disasters, which should make men afraid, are now regarded only by those who fear for their own personal safety, themselves and those connected with them.--Letter 3a, 1883. {3MR 318.2}

As long as we do not agree on an understand of the nature of sin as taught by our Lord, there is no sense in taking part in this fruitless discussion. There is way too much non-SDA doctrines mixed into these discussions, as if this discussion is taking place to prepare Seventh-day Adventists a way to get along with the doctrines of the beast and its image.

We cannot come to any agreement here unless we have a better understanding of

1) the nature of sin

2) justification by faith

3) the meaning of death and eternal life

This means understanding our fundamentals. Without that this makes no sense. Let us rather have a study of these important subjects than bury ourselves in the work of our prime enemy and destroyer.

Pray for guidance and Spiritual maturity.

AMEN!

Johann,

You, and most Adventists today, are missing the message of 1888. While justification is important, righteousness is more so. The entire conflict revolves around one single question: Is God's law just and possible to keep? Satan says it is not. Those who follow him also try to promote a salvation that is workless.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Many are teaching today that the commandments are of small consequence. There are various ways of promoting this error, from bending the rules to fit modern culture to teaching salvation by grace alone without its balancing perspective. Many are falling prey to these things.

When one does not have a proper realization of the seriousness of the crime committed by not keeping God's law--a crime so severe it caused the death of Jesus--one can hardly appreciate the intense hatred of sin which God must have, and the immense patience He has shown in keeping back His judgments so long. Yet, as the Bible says, He will not keep His anger forever. A time is coming when punishment will come. And God will punish.

I suppose it is a nice "warm fuzzy" message to think that God is all "sugar and spice and all things nice" with not a speck of harm in Him. Perfect love, however, sets boundaries. God has boundaries. His law demands the death of any of His subjects who chooses to break it. That is the "wages" of transgression. Punishment, including death, is promised to all who refuse the merciful pardon offered through the blood of Christ. God will not force anyone to receive Him. If they choose their own way, they must receive the punishment that God would rather not have administered to them.

Perhaps some folk here believe that God will not punish. The Bible and Mrs. White teach otherwise. Perhaps some here believe that God's punishments never include actual death. Again, the record shows otherwise. Be careful what you believe, for those who receive the mark are as well able to receive it in their foreheads for believing a lie as to receive it in their hands for their deeds.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Sin is much worse than you portray it, GC. You need a Savior.

Green - WHY does God hate sin? Because it destroys His creation. God will not suspect the consequences of SIN forever. Judgments some when God removes His protection.

From your point of view, God is to be more feared than Satan. In fact, the real problem with sin is that it makes God mad, and then he lashes out. Sin itself is not the problem per se, as it does not kill the sinner, God kills the sinner. Have I summarized your view correctly?

And how was Jerusalem punished? God withdrew His protect. Sin is the problem, not God.

Sin kills, sin is deadly. Not God. If you cling to sin, you will die. EGW in Steps to Christ shows that our struggle against is is difficult, it is the greatest battle ever fought!God does not force His will on His creatures. If God executes sinners, is that not a forcing of His will? Absolutely! Does this mean that sinners will not feel the punishment of sin? NO! If you cling to sin, it will kill you! The wages of SIN, is death. Sin pays its wage.

"The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23.) To Adam before his fall the Lord said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17.) "If you transgress My law, death will surely be your punishment." By disobeying God's command, he forfeited his life. {8MR 38.3}What causes death? Transgression of the law.

This is amazing, the condescension of believers against those who are just as faithful if not more. GC you are not wrong, and I should be amazed that a pastor would condemn you for speaking the truth, but I am not amazed because I see their superior attitudes all the time.

Johann; If you pull the plug on a life support system would this be causing death? If as you say all God does is allow them to be killed by some kind of evil force overwhelming them to death then would this not be still causing them to die?

Do we have life in ourselves?

If God let us go to some other Universe separate from Him would we be able to supply our own needs without Him?

If God did not resurrect the wicked, they could just never wake up again correct? But He doesn't do that does He? Some people die THREE TIMES! Those who pierced Jesus.

Do you think this is unrighteous for God to do? I have heard men like you from the pulpit allude to God being a sadist because the bible teaches this. They argue against what our prophet was shown directly from God, that He resurrects twice those who killed Jesus, then kills them, first by the glory of the second coming, then in the fires of hell.

I know for a fact what you would teach here.

If God does not destroy the wicked, then why does He bother resurrecting them in the first place? If all He did was shut them off from the source of life is this not a form of destruction?

But that is not all He does, He causes the wicked to witness exactly what they did to the Son of God after it is too late for them to repent, is this sadistic? NO, IT IS RIGHTEOUS!

They feel exactly what Jesus felt while He died for them, the mercy they spurned. So is this unrighteous for God to do? You have not thought your false doctrines through and it is obvious you do not see things from our prophets perspective either.

"God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that “the wages of sin is death,” that every violation of God’s law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father’s face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

How do you become a partaker of the Atonement? What did they have to do in ancient Israel? Something about KILLING A GOAT?

Something about CUTTING IT"S THROAT? You flatter yourselves.

Transgression of the law, in and of itself, does not cause death. If it did, we would all be dead, for we have all transgressed. If you read the quote more carefully, you'll see that the death comes as punishment for transgression of the law. God must punish the sinner.

Note how more than once in the Bible, God set a bound upon a sinner's lifespan. God only allows sinners to live for so long, then death comes. And this is only the first death. Angels do not experience two deaths. Fallen angels do not die. They are not mortals as we are. But they will experience the "second death" without having had a death prior. This is because the second death is the one in which justice and judgment are rendered.



In other words, sin is sin. It doesn't matter how small or large the sin might have been--all sins are grievous to God.



So there are degrees of sin. Not all sins are equal, even though all are grievous. Those who are in leadership positions carry greater responsibilities. Note the case of Herod, who knew God's commandments, but who did not follow them.



Herod's sin was met with the "retributive justice of God" in which he "died in great agony of mind and body." His case is but one example of God's judgments, of which we all should take heed. God will not tolerate sin in us. Finally, it will bring upon us the "second death," if we have not chosen to accept His loving offer of mercy and salvation.



Consider this: if all sins are grievous to God, and any sin causes death, then why will not all sins cause death in an equal manner? But we are clearly told that some will suffer long while others are quickly destroyed. Why this difference?

And if sin causes death, why will the greatest of all sinners, Satan himself, live the longest?

This only demonstrates that it is not sin which causes death, but punishment for sin which causes death. As the Bible would put it, "the wages" of sin is death. Those wages represent the reward of the wicked. God will bring rewards for all, righteous or wicked, according as their works shall be.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Now THAT is the question isn't it? Does transgression of the law cause death. A sinner would not die unless God killed them. So, the title of this thread is true. Love God, or He will kill you. Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die:. I guess he was right.

How did God limit the life span? Several ways. At the flood, God permitted eating of flesh. This limited the life span to 120 years, and is clearly seen in the the lifespans of the patriarchs.

And green you hedge, you said angels are immortal. Now you say they are not mortal like we are. Are you still saying they are immortal or they are mortal, just not like we are. The Bible is clear that only God is immortal. Angels are not immortal. Even jame would disagree with you that angels are immortal.

Yes, and who is arguing otherwise? And read the last sentence of your quote: "until the light of heaven will be entirely withdrawn." This is God's wrath as defined in Romans 1, and seen through out the Old Testament.

Yes green, put ALL the quotes together. The Grea Controversy clearly shows that that destruction of Jerusalem shows the "retributive justice". And how was God involved? He withdrew. Just as your quote above. Just as we see through out the Bible.

Sin then is not the problem. God is the problem. Sin will not kill you, God will. God is the destroyer. This verse is mistranslated: Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." It should say, He shall save his people from HIM!

green you also think that the inverse proportion of the suffering due to sin is because it is just punishment. So God is not only the excutioner, He also will torture sinners. Just not more that they deserve. Does this torture have a purpose? Is it to scare the on looking universe into submission? Fear is the rule of the government now. Break God's law, and he will execute you, and torture while He is doing it. Affliction will not rise again because everyone will be scared to, well, not scared to death, because only God is the cause of death. Makes no sense. I'm sorry green, this is the devil's picture of God, and the majority of the SDA church too. Is it any wonder this movement is not progressing as it should?


Truth mingles with error. Yes, it is incredible the distortions we have about God. Most believe God IS EXACTING, that sin is not really the problem for sin will not kill you, God will kill you. And it is not interesting that the object of his mission, "the revelation of God to the world" has been changed to a legal subtitution to pay for sin. It is not my job to change anyone's mind. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. I only need to present the truth, and you are free to accept it or reject it. God will not force anyone. The wages of sin is death.

James 1:12-15 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

Note - sin brings forth death, not execution by God.

Blessings INDEED

If I believe that God is the destroyer, I can see that God personally sending fire to destroy people would fit in with my world view. But what if I believe God is the restorer? Would I consider that perhaps I'm reading something incorrectly?




Are you saying God is both?

Do you disagree with Ellen White when she says, Satan is the destroyer; the Lord is the Restorer?


James, nothing else is relevant until you answer that question. It all has to do with your presumed belief. You will find support for your belief whichever way it is. Are we to take it that your world view, your belief about God is that He is the destroyer?

"The bride trembling ever so barely noticeably looks him in the eye and stammers as confidently as she can muster, Ya-Yes, of course."

I guess James may be wrong. So are you. Or else the Bible is wrong or Mrs. White is wrong.

You say only God is immortal. I say that is a false statement based on a false interpretation. I'm tired of having to reiterate these points, to be honest. Is it truly pertinent to this discussion? There are so many things about which you are vainly confident that I do not have time to address them all. I can only urge you to be more open-minded and to study more. The things I speak are of an extensive understanding of the Bible and Mrs. White. I have been privileged to learn much, and yet there is much more that I am still learning.

Let's settle the fact that God is not the only immortal, and then move on, ok?



Immortals praise God. God is not praising Himself.



We are now, as sinners on earth, mortals. We will then, in heaven, be immortals. All of the unfallen beings in the universe are already immortals. They would only become mortal through sin, because then they must die. That is the wage of sin.

Fallen angels are not dying yet. They await their wages. They are not mortals in the same sense as we are, although in a sense they are--for they are destined for the fires of hell which will end their eternal existence.

So much depends on proper context. The Bible does say that God is immortal. It says Jesus only has immortality. What is the context? The context is that of the people to whom Paul was writing, or in other words, Jesus is the only one among humans on earth to possess immortality. Paul's writings are so easy to misunderstand because he was not really a wordsmith/lawyer. Context is especially important in his writings, because he's just focused on the "main thing" and not generally on the fine details.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I believe the Bible, EGW and even james on this point. But then you hedge again, when you sayYES, sin kills, sin makes the angels mortal. Not because of imposed penalty, but as the natural consquences of sin.Is the creature greater than the creator? No. All creation is dependant on God. NO GREEN - EGW says, "IMMORTALITY IS AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD ONLY". Is this clear yet? You ask if this is pertinent to this discussion. I do believe it was you that brought it up. Angels would remain immortal IF they did not have sin. But sin is the brutal destroyer, created by Satan, the "author of sin" (how many quotes would you like?). Immortality is granted on conditions. God has no conditions. He is the source of ALL life. Let's settle the fact that "immortality is an attribute of God only", then move on. Notice, I used EGW's quote? Who has the closed mind? Me? Or you?Has sin changed Satan? You bet he has.

You contradict yourself. You say EGW says only God is immortal, then you say that angels are immortal unless/until they sin. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not saying what you're saying. I'm saying that God is immortal, and that other beings are also immortal unless they sin.

Sin destroys, yes. I have no objection to your quotes that say it does. It is a part of the picture. Your understanding grasps roughly half of the whole. I take in both halves. I've been focusing here on the "other half" more because you seem so opposed to its truthfulness and are wishing to cast it aside. What you seem to miss is the how.

You would not be able to explain the passages that explicitly state that God destroys such as can be found both in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White. You have no way of incorporating them logically into your view. Sin is transgression of the law. Sin is not a sentient being with ability to punish of itself. You conflate sin's punishment with the sin itself. The punishment is from God. The law was His, and He it is who enforces it.

I have posted multiple passages from the Bible and EGW speaking of God destroying. Which of them can you agree with?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You guys act like you are speaking for the whole church and GC and I are off base.

Here is our 27th fundamental belief.

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

The quotes you keep repeating are not even on the right subject, yet you keep asserting that we are not answering your questions. I believe I asked you first "were do the fires of hell come from?"

"While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {DD 60.2}"

Does this not mean that God reveals Himself to destroy the wicked? The act of revealing Himself destroys them. They put themselves there, and there is no doubt they are responsible for neglecting salvation, their shield, but God still has to act for them to be destroyed. This means they chose to be destroyed by neglecting the truth.

So by the efforts that have been made by God to save, he is the restorer, until He must reveal Himself to cleans the earth, so His strange act is destroying to cleanse in the end. That is why it is called a strange act. He does not want to do it and has proven that fact by allowing His Son to die in their place.

You look at this from our mortal perspective, like everything is revolving around us. But that is not the case. We are here to give glory to God. We are the fallen ones. Our perspective is of those marked for destruction from birth.

So in order for God to restore us and our world to God's image He MUST cleanse the earth, and He does this by revealing Himself. He knows what will happen when He does this. It's not as if He wanted it this way, Satan did, and he is given the title of their destroyer because of how he deceived them.

Why is the second death called "punishment'? Does He say OK now go punish yourselves? He has no delight in the punishment of the wicked but He does execute judgment.

“Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.” Psalm 11:6

AS I said, it is conditional. Only God has immortality and that is unconditional. You appear to be changing your tune, and for the better.I have quoted MANY passages which tells us HOW destruction comes. Which ones do you disagree with?

When we are with Christ in the Judgment in heaven what do we do there? Do we say "yes let them suffer at Satan's hand thus and thus amount of time?

"Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, “Glory; Alleluia!” {EW 54.1}

Green - you brought in the argument that angels are immortal. Specifically, that Satan is immortal and the only reason he dies, is that God executes him.

Is this what you believe?

APL,

I don't disagree with the passages you've quoted. I disagree with your interpretation of them.

So do other passages.

Regarding the fallen angels and mortality, how many of them do you know who have died? Are there funerals for them? Will fallen angels be resurrected to face judgment? They are only "mortal" because their punishment is sure. Until then, they do not die, nor will they die until then. Even at Jesus' coming, when His glory extinguishes all other sinners on this earth, they will not die. Isn't that interesting? Apparently, it will take them a much larger dose of God's glory to be fatal. Yet they have sinned much more than we have. Have you an explanation for this dichotomy?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL,

Answer this part:



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Brothers Kland, APL and Johann, I know you all want to continue to argue that God is not in charge of the destruction of the wicked. This is obvious because every opportunity you have on every thread you all make this observation.

I will make this last point and I will not answer you again on this subject unless you tell me the answer to this riddle.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice." {LDE 241.2}

According to this statement, was it God who drowned the world. Was it God who rained fire on Sodom? Answer 'yes' or 'no' please. Thank you in Jesus' name amen.

This just shows that you have not heard, perhaps ignored? the argues I have made in this and other threads.

Did God kill Saul? The Bible says: 1 Chronicles 10:14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse. I ask again, did God kill Saul? The Bible says: 1 Chronicles 10:4 Then said Saul to his armor bearer, Draw your sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armor bearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell on it.

It is clear what happened to Saul. The LORD takes responsibility for that which He permits. This is clear often in the Bible. So the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died (Numbers 21:6). Did God send the snake? How? EGW:Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures (Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 428, 429, emphasis added).

The story of Job is another very clear example. Did God cause all the pain an misery to Job? No, we know where it comes from. But what does the Bible say? Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil? and still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause.

How about the destruction of Jerusalem? I've asked this question before, no answer? “O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;” “for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.” Hosea 13:9; Hosea 14:1.

From a recently published book:

Read one or two more paragraphs down in the same book you quoted, and you have your answer clear as day. "Judgments Come When God Removes His Protection"

And see my response above.

The answer lies in a subject called, "the Great Controversy". 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?. When Satan sinned and was cast out of heaven, he was beyond saving. When he caused man to sin, and the plan of redemption was instituted for man, Satan claimed that if man could be restored, angels could be also. But they cannot. Why? Because they were hopeless ruined. This fact will need to be explored and confirmed. The millenium will be the time their review will take place. As to God's glory, are the fallen angels in His glory now? Nope. Man - no man can see His face and live. Why? On the day of final judgment, the universe will revert back to its normal state. God's glory will return. It will impart life to the righteous, and will slay the wicked. See what I posted a couple of posts up.

APL,

God is not limited in His means of carrying out His purposes. If He chooses, He can use Pilate and Herod to kill the Lamb of God. But how did Jesus die? Did Pilate actually kill Him? Did He not die of separation from His Father on account of the burden of sins which was placed upon Him? The nails did not end His life. The sword which passed into His side only did so after He was dead. Does God blame Pilate? Yes. Does God also accept responsibility?



According to that passage, God killed His Son. This should give us pause.

As for who killed Saul?



God did something here. He rejected Saul, and He abandoned him. This broke Saul's spirit. He was already rejected before seeking the witch, but afterward was left wholly desolate, and his morose spirit and emptiness of soul could not keep its hold on life. Did God insert the sword in Saul's heart? No. Did God insert the nails in Jesus' hands and feet? No. But the real cause of death in both cases was that of a broken heart. Saul deserved his, Jesus did not.

You see, I can easily fit the exceptional features which you mention into my understanding, and they do not trouble me at all. If one prefers to say that God killed Saul, that is fine. If one prefers to say that Saul killed himself, that is fine too. What is not accurate is to say that God did not kill Saul. God is ultimately in charge. David did not technically kill Uriah either. But David was in charge, and God rightfully blamed him. God sits on a throne higher than did David.

An interesting point that can be made about that "troublesome" text in 1 Chronicles which says "he slew him" in English is that the "he" is not there in the Hebrew. That's a supplied word. Furthermore, it may be unclear what its antecedent is. For instance, the "he" might actually point back to the familiar spirit, in which case we might have the devil himself doing the dirty work. One would still have an interesting interpretive conundrum there, seeing as Saul killed himself. Again, I don't have any issue with this passage one way or the other. God is within His rights to claim responsibility if He chooses.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

APL,

There are a number of special problems which your view runs against, but which are not problems at all with the fuller view that I maintain. One of those is that God honors some of His people who have killed for Him. Take Elijah, for example.



There is also David and Goliath, Samuel and Agag, Caleb and Joshua against the Canaanites, the woman who smote Sisera, and many more.

Remember Phinehas?



Why did God honor Phinehas? What was his good deed?



Phinehas killed for God, and God proclaimed his honor with an everlasting covenant--specifically for his act of killing.

If you want to believe that God does not kill, why does God honor those who do?

This is a big problem, as I see it, for your view.

The truth, which you may not be open to, is that your view is not Biblical. The Bible shows us both the loving and the justice sides to God's character. Either one of these, without the other, results in an imbalanced view. To understand God fully, one must acknowledge both.

Your view has many good points. God is loving. Supremely loving. But in His love and wisdom, God also is just. Justice and mercy demand the death of the unrepentant sinner. When God kills, it is in mercy and love, as well as in justice. It takes a mature mind to grasp this, for it may not seem natural to join these characteristics in a single purpose.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So which is it? The Father killed Christ, or Christ died of separation from the Father? You have said both in your post.

The Father did not execute His son. Was there separation between the Son and the Father? YES. WHY? SIN. It was sin that separated man from his God, and it is sin that maintains this separation. {16MR 115.2}

Ah, but you say, Christ was sinless! Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. {16MR 115.3} 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

It was sin that killed the Son of God. The Cross IS the answer. Sin destroys the sinner.

Using your logic, we can say, GOD HAS KILLED EVERYONE! Nice. No, Saul was not killed by God. Oh, and the "he" apparently also fouled EGW.

Please do not forget, The Children of Israel were NOT suppose to fight. Exodus 23:28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before you.

It is not a problem for my view the stories you present. It is not God's ideal. And it is not God acting. Remember David, a man after God's own heart, was NOT permitted to build the Temple. Why? Because he was a man of blood. It would have given the people the wrong idea.

What was Moses' great sin which kept him out of the land of Canaan? Moses misrepresented God's character.

Elijah - I'm not going to quote the science because I do not have papers handy at this time as to what may have happened in 2 Kings 1. But we have a glimps in the NT that reflects on this topic. Luke 9:54-56 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, will you that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, You know not what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

I once thought as you do. No longer. That view minimized the gravity of sin. It turns God into the problem, not sin. Sin is not a legal problem. If sin is a legal problem, then please explain why all creation is affected? Sin is bad, not because it is breaking the rules then makes God mad, but because it destroys God's creation.

All problems resolve when you realize this: All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

When we look to Jesus, then we need to interpret the OT from that viewpoint. Jesus answers all questions.

So you totally discount the fact that it says God inflicts the punishment. OK well that is your response so we disagree, so stop spamming every quote I make please on every thread with this argument. Thanks.

APL,

You're changing the topics and/or twisting what I presented. Is that because you have no answer? Perhaps you have a hard time accepting these things yourself.

I did not refer even once to the fire that GOD sent down on Elijah's behalf to kill the soldiers in my post. You have a special problem with that too, I suppose, unless you can explain that by natural causes, which you are trying to do, I see. What I referred to was Elijah, by his own hand, killing 450 prophets of Baal, and God honoring him for doing so.



If God honors those who do what He would not do Himself, we have a picture of God that makes Him into a hypocrite or worse. That is the picture you have.

Regarding the quote that "All that man needs to know...," this quote is so misused these days. Don't forget, it was God's Son who led the children of Israel in the days of Moses. His life AND CHARACTER have been revealed throughout the entire Bible, extending beyond His earthly lifetime. (Most people on your side of this discussion will try to say that it meant only His earthly existence. They are wrong, and face some special theological problems in doing so, such as the fact that the Old Testament gives us many examples of things we don't see from God in the life of Jesus during His earthly ministry.)

Sodom is one example. The Flood is another. God honoring those who killed is another. Jesus did not do this during His time here. He didn't do everything in just 3.5 years of ministry. We can learn much more about God from looking at Jesus' character throughout the Old Testament.

Remember, Jesus referred to His own pre-existence while He was on earth among us.



Jesus Himself said that the Old Testament scriptures bear witness of Him. How can we ignore this? If they bear witness of Jesus, what about Him can we know? Do they tell us about His physical appearance? Or are they focused primarily on His character?

I would submit that nearly the only thing about Jesus we see in the Old Testament is His character.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Satan accuses God of having his own characteristics. Perhaps you are trying to accuse me of having yours? I hope not!

Did I say you did? No. You brought up Elijah, and so I was pointing out another aspect of Elijah. No need to be so defensive.

It is written: Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Also: John 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?

These verses points to Christ at His incarnation here on earth. God is JUST LIKE Jesus.



I have quoted the article in Signs of the Times, January 20, 1890, where is says and I quote: "When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men." Yes, the OT testifies to what the Messiah would do, what he would experience, how he would respond! But not until He came did we REALLY understand the character of the Father. Yes, Christ has been with the Father from eternity past. But the best revelation of God is seen in life and character of His Son.

I see in our discusions, that your heart is harder than ever. It is not my job to change your heart, for indeed I never can. That is an issue between you and God.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Get this wrong, and you do not have eternal life. Christ's death did not settle some legal issue. We are not in legal trouble. We are in real trouble. "A cold, legal religion can never lead souls to Christ; for it is a loveless, Christless religion."

It is written:
1 Corinthians 13:4-13 - emphasis supplied
4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant
5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part;
10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Every?


James, for some reason you have avoided answering me about your premise, is God the destroyer or the restorer. For some reason.

I can only conclude that you really don't want to state what you believe, that God is the destroyer, because when you think about it, it seems distasteful to you, but yet you still believe it.

With thinking God is the destroyer, anything else we talk about will only come across as silly to you since we are disputing your absolutely held belief and premise that God is the destroyer. It would be the same as if you believed 2+2=5 and we were saying it equaled 4, it totally would come across as pure silliness. And likewise, if you were to try the same with me. We each have an absolutely held premise. No discussion of anything else can possibly change that. Only when one comes face to face with a question such as, if God is the destroyer or restorer, is there even the potential. It is a very deeply held and internal belief about what we really think about God, about whether we really "like" Him.

If it was to be pointed out that Saul killed himself, one who believed that God is the destroyer may go so far as to spin it as that God caused Saul to kill himself, and then that Saul really had no choice in the matter, and then even so far as to say Saul was predestined to kill himself....



James, I may be wrong about the following, but I see any last day prophets or those who have dreams as those who embrace the health message and have a correct view of God. I found out about Ernie, using the health message, before many others found out about him. I am reconsidering my views concerning your dreams from god. Perhaps you could spend some time fasting and praying that God may reveal to you about which way is correct regarding His character. This would be important to God, no?

I agree that God is like Jesus. And what is Jesus like? Perhaps you would like to suppose that the only revelation we have of Christ is that of His earthly ministry. Is that right?

What do you think of the following statements?



Those are just a few of the "one-liners" that all remind us how much of Jesus' character we can learn from in the Old Testament. But, this next passage I will quote in fuller context, because it is important, and I feel readers of this thread will appreciate its perspective.



These things must be understood in their proper perspective. Balance is necessary when one approaches the Bible. To automatically assume that one person is incorrect because they oppose our own favorite opinions is unbalanced and perilous. I cannot say how much understanding of God's character will be necessary for one's salvation, and I'm disappointed that others here have indicated they think they know something about that. I know that we must understand enough of God's grace and love to choose to place our trust in Him, and to love Him as our personal Friend and Savior. This I do. I know Jesus has our best interest at heart. But it is unsafe to think that there is no judgment coming from God. There is a limit to His mercy.

The above statement from Mrs. White is plain. Christ Himself gave command to kill those who committed murder. If Christ honors those who kill in righteousness, and He commands that such killings take place, it is not surprising that He will also execute justice and judgment Himself.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - who gave the law of divorce? Was that law the ideal? NO. Why was it given? Matthew 19:7-8 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 He said to them, “It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. Malachi 2:16 For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel,

Many laws called for the death penalty. Exodus 21:15 Whoever strikes father or mother shall be put to death. Exodus 21:17 Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death. Should the Adventist church keep the law? Should we not bring back these laws? Would that not make the Adventist church more appealing? Perhaps we can have days where we stone Sabbath breakers! Were all that were convicted of murder and put to death guilty, even with the witness of 2 or 3? Is that fair?

How are you going to judge the inner thoughts of a person?
1 John 3:15 All who hate a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them.

How many SDA pastors do you think are adulterers? How are you going to tell?
Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

What did Jesus say?:
Matthew 5:38-41 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile.

Amos 5:14 Seek good and not evil, that you may live; and so the LORD, the God of hosts, will be with you, just as you have said.
Malachi 2:17 You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, “How have we wearied him?” By saying, “All who do evil are good in the sight of the LORD, and he delights in them.” Or by asking, “Where is the God of justice?”
Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I guess "good" means to kill at times. :-(

APL,

You believe that God does not kill.
You also believe that God has commanded killing. (Unless you don't believe the Bible and Ellen White.)

Therefore, it follows that you must believe that God commands others to do what He will not do Himself, thereby making Him out to be a hypocrite.

I do not share your view of God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green Cochoa has a very precise understanding of this issue.

Jesus did not come to condemn but to save on His first visit. But upon His second visit in the Glory of the Father the wicked are slain.

"“I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance,” said John; “but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” Matthew 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities “by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” The word of the Lord to Israel was, “I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin.” Isaiah 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, “our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God’s presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed “with the Spirit of His mouth,” and destroyed “with the brightness of His coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." {DA 107.4}

Brother GC, no amount of debate will change his mind until He sees it for himself at the second coming.

Shame on the pastor who teaches this lie though, shame.How many have been corrupted in their understanding of righteousness by such?

To everyone on the other side the issue, who have stated they know for a fact they are right, how many of these quotes did you skip over while your conscience was seared to find the quotes you were looking for?

All you have to do is type in 'God destroys' in the EGW library and see how wrong you are, but when you do this those quotes disappear?

Did God give rules for divorce? Is that what he wanted? Why wad David prevented from building the temple? What was Moses' great sin? Yet God worked them them leading them step by step. This is very revealing of the character of God also.

I do not share your concept of sin. It is much worst than you make it out to be.

Let everyone be persuaded in their own mind.

Face it, your view makes God is THE ultimate destroyer. Sin is not the cause of destruction, God is. EGW is wrong, for God will destroy many men.

God sent the serpents to bite the children. But did He? How?
God slew Saul. But did He? How?
God destroyed Jerusalem. But did He? How?

Love God, or He will kill you!

Green, check this one out. Deuteronomy 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:. But then, not even 10 generations later, we have the events of the Book of Ruth! Who gave the rule in Deuteronomy 23? Why was it given? Why then Ruth? Please, explain!

Please feel free to go ahead and let us all know how this connects to this topic, for I don't see any connection.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Wow, at a loss to understand that one myself. But I did try to figure it out. Most of the time he makes some sense though. He's just very wrong about this topic.

I see that you did not disagree with me that to your view, God is a hypocrite.

I would agree, this would make sin much worse in your view than I hold in mine. I do not believe God is subject to such sin as you hold. If sin is so rampant that even God must be a hypocrite, then sin is tremendously terrible indeed.

Thankfully, I believe Christ lived a perfect life, with not so much as a taint of sin upon His character. And I do not believe God is a hypocrite, for He holds us to the same standard as for Himself. After all, Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

When Jesus commands, we can trust that it is not a sin to follow His command. To your view, Jesus commanded sin. To my view, He commanded only righteous acts.

Indeed, sin is more terrible in your view. I'm thankful to know the truth about God, that God is perfect and just and good, and in Him is no guile.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

When a house fire burns a home until all inside is blackened by soot, watered by the firemen's hoses, and weakened by the heat--to the point that there is nothing salvageable, only a husk of a frame where once stood something grand, what must the homeowner do?

He must raze it.

How was the home destroyed? Who did it? The arsonist or the homeowner?

I think you would agree with me that the arsonist destroyed the home.

This is the same thing that happens with God. Satan destroys the soul temple via his enticements and entanglements with sin. Sin guts the house till nothing is left to salvage. When God can no longer save, He must destroy that which remains to clean up the property. The real destruction was that of Satan and of sin. God must then clean up the remaining mess, and in such a way as to help all realize the foolishness of allowing sin to rein. One thing is certain, it would be foolish to leave it to "sin" to clean its own mess! I could only make a bigger mess.

Satan is definitely the destroyer. God is not the destroyer. But God must destroy that which remains of the mess in order to make a fresh start and a clean haven for those who remain.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I see you are avoiding facing what you must concerning your deeply held beliefs about God. Either you are correct or incorrect. Suppose you are incorrect about God, but you are saved, come to face Him, and find out indeed He does not kill. Will you be either disappointed or in fear? Then suppose I am incorrect about God, but I am saved, come to face Him, and find out indeed He does kill. Will I be disappointed or in fear?



Do you "like" God? Would you enjoy having lunch with Him if you believed that if you crossed a line, He would kill you?

What about your wife? If she believed you would kill her if she crossed you once too many times, do you think she could really love you?

APL listed the attributes of love.

Do you believe God is love?

Or, do you believe God is love, but...         (not really)?

I'm not surprised. Who gave the command in Deuteronomy 23:3? Why was the command given? What happened not more that 10 generations later? What is the real truth?

Just as the commands for marriage in the beginning, and the laws of divorce. What is divorce? Answer: adultery, plain and simple. Does God WANT to divorce? He HATES divorce. Why the rules for divorce? Because of the hardness of the people, His chosen people, the people that are to bring the GOSPEL to the world. Why circumcision? IT was to be a sign. The people broke the covenant. Why all the laws that God gave besides the 10C. If everyone kept the 10C, the law of liberty, we would not need any of these laws. There would have been no need for circumcision, the people would not have ended up in Egypt, the Sinai experiences would not have been needed, etc. Speaking of Sinai, God condescended to come down and give His law. And immediately the people broke the covenant He has plan, for them to be His people, and He would be there God. The people were afraid, and Moses knew there was no need to be afraid. But the people continued to not understand His character.

The statutes and judgments given of God were good for the obedient. "They should live in them." But they were not good for the transgressor; for in the civil law given to Moses, punishment was to be inflicted on the transgressor, that others should be restrained by fear. Is that really what God wants? "The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love." {GC 498.3} Fear is not what God wants. The nature and consequences of sin is death and destruction, but not externally applied by God. It is intrinsic to sin! Yes, it a long painful process that God has embarked on in trying to bring a people that would fully represent His character. Israel failed. Are we also going to fail?

Kland, have you read what I was shown about the Red Heifer?

http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html

If you had seen what I saw Jesus go through in the Garden of Gethsemane, you would know why.

Jesus suffered the wrath of the Father for us. It was not pretty. Blood was squeezed out of every pore of his body like being at the bottom of the deepest ocean in the belly of the great fish.

Have you ever heard of what God told Mrs White would happen if she didn't share the messages in the same light as God revealed them to her? She was afraid of the public stigma and watered down what God showed her, and He gave her a vision of what would happen to her if she did not repent.

"It was a great cross for me to relate to the erring what had been shown me concerning them. It caused me great distress to see others troubled or grieved. And when obliged to declare the messages, I would often soften them down, and make them appear as favorable for the individual as I could, and then would go by myself and weep in agony of spirit...
I did not realize that I was unfaithful in thus questioning and doubting, and did not see the danger and sin of such a course, until in vision I was taken into the presence of Jesus. He looked upon me with a frown, and turned His face from me. It is not possible to describe the terror and agony I then felt. I fell upon my face before Him, but had no power to utter a word. Oh, how I longed to be covered and hid from that dreadful frown! Then could I realize, in some degree, what the feelings of the lost will be when they cry to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.” Revelation 6:16. {CET 79.1}
Presently an angel bade me rise, and the sight that met my eyes can hardly be described. Before me was a company whose hair and garments were torn, and whose countenances were the very picture of despair and horror. They came close to me, and rubbed their garments upon mine. As I looked at my garments, I saw that they were stained with blood. Again I fell like one dead, at the feet of my accompanying angel. I could not plead one excuse, and longed to be away from that holy place. {CET 79.2}
The angel raised me to my feet, and said: “This is not your case now, but this scene has passed before you to let you know what your situation must be if you neglect to declare to others what the Lord has revealed to you. But if you are faithful to the end, you shall eat of the tree of life, and shall drink of the river of the water of life. You will have to suffer much, but the grace of God is sufficient.” {CET 79.3}
I then felt willing to do all that the Lord might require me to do, that I might have His approbation, and not feel His dreadful frown." {CET 80.1}

This is very similar to how I felt seeing Jesus go through that in the Garden for all of my sins, then He carried them to the cross to die with my sins so He could place them on Satans head.

In this vision Mrs White was seeing others in the second resurrection who would be in hell because she did not share the message in strength. THEY WERE SWEATING BLOOD because of the frown of God.

To know what I have seen is the beginning of wisdom because our souls are in the hands of our creator. This IS the fear of the LORD!

By the time we get to have 'lunch' with God, every sin has been purged from our souls through witnessing His mercy through His Son.

If we reject that mercy we are lost and receive the wrath, plain and simple.

So in summary, I hear you saying that for those who do not love God, He will intentionally kill them, plain and simple.

I guess there's been some who have not been very nice to you about your prophecies. Won't it only be fair and right for God to make them pay for what they've done to you? Then you'll be on the favored side and they won't.

Micha 5:10 And in that day, declares the Lord,
I will cut off your horses from among you
and will destroy your chariots;
11 and I will cut off the cities of your land
and throw down all your strongholds;
12 and I will cut off sorceries from your hand,
and you shall have no more tellers of fortunes;
13 and I will cut off your carved images
and your pillars from among you,
and you shall bow down no more
to the work of your hands;
14 and I will root out your Asherah images from among you
and destroy your cities.
15 And in anger and wrath I will execute vengeance
on the nations that did not obey.

Kland you obviously have a problem with the word of God not with me. I just cannot believe that others on this website are listening to you without objecting vehemently on how you misrepresent scripture to supply your own ideas. And the fact that you have a retired pastor defending your false doctrines is just bone chilling to me.

Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Genesis 6:17

For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.

Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.

Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places and cut down your incense altars and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols, and my soul will abhor you.

Deuteronomy 9:3
Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the Lord your God. He will destroy them and subdue them before you. So you shall drive them out and make them perish quickly, as the Lord has promised you.

But your theories and promises mean more?

Deuteronomy 9:14
Let me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven.

Here is a good one that totally contradicts your words KLAND

Deuteronomy 28:63
And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Seems very apropos to this conversation.

You think I am being evil right now. I think you think yourself more worthy to discern the word of truth than I am.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Interesting quote I came across while reading on a different topic!
What happens when we do not allow Christ in our life? What happens to those that reject Him? Is it love me, or I'll kill you? No. It is love Me, (and He has shown us ample tokens of His love), love Me, or I will, sadly, let you go. He will not force us. But the separation will result is death.

Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

k: So in summary, I hear you saying that for those who do not love God, He will intentionally kill them, plain and simple.



I only asked if that's what I hear you saying. Based on your many emphatic responses, it does sound like I am correctly understanding what you are saying. I'm not sure why you are coming across angry at me just stating what you are saying.

You guys keep quoting things that are relative to salvation and have nothing to do with judgment which proves a lack of judgment on your part.

I think it is less than forthright for you both to be taking quotes out of context and it can be proven by looking at the whole quote in any of yours. Here is your whole quote;

The Passive Graces
The Lord permits circumstances to come that call for the exercise of the passive graces, which increase in purity and efficiency as we endeavor to give back to the Lord His own in tithes and offerings. You know something of what it means to pass through trials. These have given you the opportunity of trusting in God, of seeking Him in earnest prayer, that you may believe in Him, and rely upon Him with simple faith. It is by suffering that our virtues are tested, and our faith tried. It is in the day of trouble that we feel the preciousness of Jesus. You will be given opportunity to say, “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him” (Job 13:15). Oh, it is so precious to think that opportunities are afforded us to confess our faith in the face of danger, and amid sorrow, sickness, pain, and death.... {1SM 117.4}
With us, everything depends on how we accept the Lord’s terms. As is our spirit, so will be the moral result upon our future life and character. Each individual soul has victories to gain, but he must realize that he cannot have things just as he wants them. We are to observe carefully every lesson Christ has given throughout His life and teaching. He does not destroy; He improves whatever He touches.—Letter 135, 1897. {1SM 118.1}

Where in this quote do you see anything about judgment? It is in this life while still under probation that Jesus does not destroy, but look at ANY quote about the second coming... It makes me sick that you would do this here. Why? Here is a search query for you...look up 'slay the wicked' or 'destroying angel' and may God shut the mouth of any who contradict what He showed our prophet.

"But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed “with the Spirit of His mouth,” and destroyed “with the brightness of His coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." {DA 107.4}

How can you see this for anything but what it says? Is this saying He just lets them die?

"The destroying angel is soon to go forth again, not to destroy the first-born alone, but “to slay utterly old and young, both men, women, and little children” who have not the mark." {RH March 28, 1893, Art. B, par. 13}

So God just lets them die eh? YOU DO NOT KNOW THE TRUTH! But you're so bold to continue to take the word of God on in this issue.

"In the days of Israel, when the sanctuary service was instituted, the Lord directed that only sacred fire should be used in the burning of incense. The holy fire was of God’s own kindling, and the fragrant smoke represented the prayers of the people as they ascended before God. Nadab and Abihu were priests of the sanctuary, and although it was not lawful to use common fire, these priests, when they went in before God, presumed to kindle their incense with unconsecrated fire. The priests had been indulging in the use of wine, and their moral sensibilities were benumbed; they did not discern the character of their actions, or realize what would be the fearful consequences of their sin. A fire blazed out from the holy of Holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

Who dwells in the Most Holy Place?

So did Satan come out of the Holy of Holies to kill them or did God just suck the life out of them? Or as in the second resurrection were they consumed by the righteous fire of God?

God Destroyed them just as he will anyone burning strange fire before Him. You do know what strange fire is don't you boys?

"God has not changed. He is as particular and exact in His requirements now as He was in the days of Moses. But in the sanctuaries of worship in our day, with the songs of praise, the prayers, and the teaching from the pulpit, there is not merely strange fire but positive defilement... What an insult to Him who is holy, dwelling in light unapproachable! {Con 84.1}

John 3:14-21
14 As Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the desert, in the same way the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior.
18 Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son.
19 This is how the judgment works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.
20 Those who do evil things hate the light and will not come to the light, because they do not want their evil deeds to be shown up.
21 But those who do what is true come to the light in order that the light may show that what they did was in obedience to God.

yes this is true but how does it contradict what I wrote?

There are three phases to judgment Brother and the quote you used before was not talking about those who reject Jesus, it was for those who had not rejected Him.

"And God “hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.” Because He has tasted the very dregs of human affliction and temptation, and understands the frailties and sins of men; because in our behalf He has victoriously withstood the temptations of Satan, and will deal justly and tenderly with the souls that His own blood has been poured out to save,—because of this, the Son of man is appointed to execute the judgment. {DA 210.3}

What is EXECUTING JUDGMENT OF THE WICKED?

"Moses then commanded those at his right hand to take their swords, and go forth and slay the rebellious, who wished to go back into Egypt. None were to execute the judgment of God on the transgressors only those who had taken no part in the idolatry. He commanded them to spare neither brother, companion, nor neighbor. Those who engaged in this work of slaying, however painful, were now to realize that they were executing upon their brethren a solemn punishment from God; and for executing this painful work, contrary to their own feelings, God would bestow upon them his blessing. By performing this act, they showed their true feelings relative to the high crime of idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the sacred worship of the only true God. The terror of the Lord was upon the people, and they were afraid that they would all be destroyed. As Moses saw their distress, he promised, according to their earnest request, to plead with the Lord to pardon their great sin. {1SP 251.2}

The results were that those who were sinning but had not hardened their heart against God repented of their sins, so great good came from this event.

I am amazed right now that others do not defend the truth here.

You prove you do not know the fear of the Lord. But I pray that you find the truth here and stop teaching lies because the end is here and guess who gets judged first?

"He who presides over His church and the destinies of nations is carrying forward the last work to be accomplished for this world. To His angels He gives the commission to execute His judgments. Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary. “And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer’s inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brazen altar.” Read Ezekiel 9:2-7. The command is, “Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.” Saith God, “I will recompense their way upon their head.” {TM 431.3}

You better get this right brothers and repent of your false doctrines.

I'm positive you will say those where evil angels that do the destruction for Christ. Jesus holds counsel with evil eh?

Here is an excerpt from a recent author and I just recently found, in a chapter titles, "The Wrath of God".

Originally Posted By: jsot

You better get this right brothers and repent of your false doctrines.

Would you pick up the sword against the Sabbath breaker? I'm speaking literally. Would you?

Originally Posted By: EGW

It is a law both of the intellectual and the spiritual nature that by beholding we become changed. The mind gradually adapts itself to the subjects upon which it is allowed to dwell. It becomes assimilated to that which it is accustomed to love and reverence. Man will never rise higher than his standard of purity or goodness or truth. If self is his loftiest ideal, he will never attain to anything more exalted. Rather, he will constantly sink lower and lower. The grace of God alone has power to exalt man. Left to himself, his course must inevitably be downward. {GC 555.1}

Is killing sinners a high and moral thing? If that is how you picture God, then that is how YOU will treat others.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

What is the "gospel"? That is the Good News?

Fortunately, the Bible and the SOP when taken as a whole, are on our side.

I have been raising the sword, the bible, in defense of the truth.

A revealing quote from Ellen

If you don't remember correctly let me remind you, you started being contrary to something I had posted. This thread was started because I mentioned that God destroys the wicked and you both replied "GOD DESTROYS NO MAN" then started ridiculing me for that statement, and now you turn it around and claim I am contrary to your views?

That is exactly what Satan would do. That is also the epitome of hypocrisy!

So you just condemned yourself and think I am condemned. How apropos.

Post #150429 - 03/06/13 02:09 PM Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: jamesonofthunder]

This is the moment you started chastising me for not agreeing with your ideas. So YOU JUST CONDEMNED YOURSELF using the Spirit of Prophecy to do it, and your conscience is not seared?

Originally Posted By: jsot

If you don't remember correctly let me remind you, you started being contrary to something I had posted. This thread was started because I mentioned that God destroys the wicked and you both replied "GOD DESTROYS NO MAN" then started ridiculing me for that statement, and now you turn it around and claim I am contrary to your views?

That is exactly what Satan would do. That is also the epitome of hypocrisy!

So you just condemned yourself and think I am condemned. How apropos.

Originally Posted By: jsot

Post #150429 - 03/06/13 02:09 PM Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: jamesonofthunder]

This is the moment you started chastising me for not agreeing with your ideas. So YOU JUST CONDEMNED YOURSELF using the Spirit of Prophecy to do it, and your conscience is not seared?

So is it OK to repay evil with evil? OR should you repay evil with good?

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil to any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

1 Corinthians 13:4-13 - emphasis supplied
4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant
5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part;
10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

The thing that needs to be answered is this: does sin have an intrinsic penalty, or extrinsic penalty.

Romans 6:23 For sin pays its wage---death; but God's free gift is eternal life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord.

"The office of a messenger whom God has chosen to send with reproofs and warnings, is strangely misunderstood at the present time. When reproof is given, the church-members feel humiliated, as their real situation is revealed to them, which they were not able to discern. God in mercy sent them warnings and reproof because he loved them. He says, “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent.” Those who need reproof bring sorrow and grief upon the soul of him who must correct their errors; but though his message be painful to him, he dare not neglect his work. Those who deserve reproofs feel hurt under personal admonition. Pride is wounded, and Satan suggests that their mistakes and errors will be reported to others, and remarks will be made in reference to their mistaken course of action. It would be well for these individuals to realize that their defects are manifest to all, and the world measures them by that which they do. Not only this world beholds their course, but they are a spectacle to the angels of heaven. The heavenly host are looking upon every man, woman, and child, and they see the defects of their characters. Besides this, nothing is hid from God; our secret sins are in the light of his countenance. {RH July 25, 1893, par. 6}

Ezekiel 3: 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Are you sure you want to continue in this? I am warned about you all the time, and it is not good.

You make it sound as if I attacked you from the beginning, this I do not do. I listen to the prompting of the Holy Spirit and He many times gives me the words to say, thoughts come to my mind, even while sleeping I am awakened to address of errors of people in similar situations.

Ask my pastors about this. Would you argue God was wrong in telling me to address them for baptizing homosexuals? How about if you knew I was not given the information by no one but God. I wasn't invited God revealed it, and I took it to them.

Would you argue against me confronting another pastor about him letting his unmarried sexually active son and his girlfriend moving into his home? This pastor even had the president of the Central states conference defend his position. Was this right? Leaders in our church seem to support each other in errors.

How about God telling me to confront a pastor having Catholic priests and other churches come into our church for a pastoral exchange? Can you see God's leading in me confronting him? They didn't see it, and they accused me of the same thing you are, so are you sure it is not you who is blinded?

How would you like to find out in the end that I was sent to warn you and you didn't even PRAY ABOUT IT? You will deny this but you haven't prayed about this issue.

When I am put into the path of men like you in this situation, they are enraged at me and try to find flaws in me so they can attack. The most gifted at this always keep their calm, and they point their fingers at the indignation God inspires in me as proof I am not led by the Spirit.

jsot - you should read Ezekiel 18.

He does not delight in the death of the wicked unless they have hardened their hearts and leading others to hell in their teachings.

"And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. {Deuteronomy 28:63}

You need to find the balance in scripture, so many scream GRACE GRACE, MERCY MERCY, but that is not the only issue involved in salvation ESPECIALLY for those who presume to TEACH others their errors. They are sent rebukes IMMEDIATELY!

But you should find hope in this point, God would not be rebuking you through me unless there was hope for you. In this I am more than confident.

Which of us sounds the most enraged? Which of us fits this? ...the church-members feel humiliated, as their real situation is revealed to them...

Take all scripture that describes God's emotions:
Hosea 11:8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.

Jeremiah 32:41 Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

Yes, but what if they reject God's offer of grace and mercy, then what? According to you, He will kill you. He has to because sin will not and can not do it in and of itself.

As I read the Bible and SOP, He will give you up, let you go, and the consequences are not good. They are intrinsic to sin. Read Mark 1:14-15.

You did not understand. You gave a nice little list of the good things you have claimed to have done. Will they save you? Do they prove anything? Read verses 24-26. Have you ever in your postings be rude? Have you ever been impatient? Obnoxious? Claimed to have been wrongly accused? Are you easily provoked? Ever thought evil of anyone? Can you bear all things, even when you think you are being heckled? Do you endure all things? ??? No? Yes? If yes, what might that be telling you? If no, then you are a saint!

The way you consistently overlook the possibility that you are wrong and attack my character, do you think it's possible it is you who are being impatient and unkind? The fact that you were the one who attacked my beliefs then say it was me who attacked you should give you pause to reflect, but instead you attack, does this not say something about the matter?

I have yet to see one post where you admit your error when it is consistently proven, yet you will not concede. Does this not speak volumes towards what you want to accuse me of? How many times on these pages have I apologized and conceded my error? Does this not speak towards my comprehending that I am not perfect?

So if you want to get in my face about my character yet the evidence is against you, what do you have to say to this?

Are you one of those people who would say, "Oh those pore children, shame on Elisha for calling on a bear to kill them just because they called him "baldy", he must not have had God in his heart". Elisha did that under the power of the Holy Spirit.

You think you are above reproach, yet this is what you accuse me of when the evidence is contrary to that. And you will not concede. This is what is shown about you. I did not come against you with this right away, it took me months to get to this point and yet you accuse me of being impatient.

Perhaps I should refresh your memory?

Judgments Come When God Removes His Protection

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {LDE 242.1}

I quote again:
 There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas. {DA 487.3}

I guess I am cursed and possess the spirit of Satan according to you. The evidence that I am cursed must be in the fact that so many blessings come to others that I have prayed for and myself in answer to prayer.

The men who are hateful to me leave the church and prove themselves over and over, but I am the one Satan is in?

I can attest that there is no more blessed man than I for the things God has given in answer to prayer. How did you find the Sabbath? Or have you? God led me directly to it in answer to prayer and He teaches me things without any man interfering and proves them to my heart and others and I am possessed?

Have you seen my wonderful wife? There is none more virtuous. A true believer, a virgin till she married me at age 40, and the most beautiful woman I have seen in both body and soul and I am cursed? She wakes early to make my home and never complains for anything. She makes more money than I do and is the most studious Christian. Every one of my friends envies me, almost to the point of crossing the line and they all say "how did you win her heart?" And I am cursed?

How is your home life brother?

I lay down and the Holy Spirit asks me, "what would you have of me?" in my heart, so no one else can hear, and everything I ask for others and myself comes to pass within days, including being given a home paid for, and a wife, completely out of debt and health for my ailing father and blessings on my wayward brother, but I must be filled with the spirit of Satan because you, a man I have never met says so correct?

I am permitted to boast in the wonderful blessings my God has given me in answer to prayer.

I will pray for you, because you need it brother.

JSOT,

God does not ever take satisfaction or joy in the death of the wicked. They have all hardened their hearts, and all people have an influence upon those around them, so those who do wickedly lead others toward hell. But it doesn't matter how bad or how wicked a person may have been, God will not delight in the sinner's death.

APL,

The issue I see with your view on this topic basically comes down to a fallacy of reasoning called generalization. You have defined "killing" as "evil" in such a way as to assume that all killing is evil.

Let's use an example that I think Arnold once posted, though I'm certain to phrase it somewhat differently. Let's say that since cutting someone's flesh with a knife causes a great deal of pain, all such cutting is intrinsically "evil." This means that anyone who cuts human flesh is "evil." This would necessarily include the mortician (even though the human is now dead), and the surgeon (even though the surgery was a life-saving measure). By over-generalizing to say that ALL cutting is "evil," we have falsely categorized certain persons and occupations as "evil."

This is what some people are doing with God in this area. They presume to think first that all killing is evil, therefore, God cannot kill. The real question in this logical sequence begins with whether or not all killing is truly evil, or is it only evil in abusive cases where proper laws were not followed.

God Himself gave commandments that men should be killed for certain crimes. If God is not evil, we must accept that these commandments were not evil, but righteous. If commandments to kill are righteous, then following the commandment must also be righteous and good. In other words, killing according to the commandment could not be counted as "evil." It would be a righteous act.

It boils down to this: either God Himself is evil, or killing is not always evil. From this key question emerges the possibility, indeed the assumption, that God may kill in righteousness.

If God kills in righteousness, it is not with the evil motivations with which we are so well acquainted as sinners. God can kill with perfect justice, righteousness and mercy blended together.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What is your wife was taken away. YOur family kidnapped, raped or murdered? What is all your possessions were destroyed. What is you became ill, near death in misery? Would you still trust God? I'm using the book of Job as a lesson book. Did God "cause" all these things? WHO caused all the chaos in Job's life? Satan. What does the Bible say? Job 2:3 And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil? and still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause. Did God destroy Job? HOW?

You don't know me. That's probably good! You make many accusations, all with out knowledge. It is good for suggesting doubt, but it has no truth. IF I told you my life and expiriences, would you even believe? I have evidence that you would. This I will say: Jeremiah 9:23-24 Thus said the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, said the LORD.

Green - who is blind? Me or you? Sexual immorality, is it better or worse than killing? (ref: Matthew 5:19) Is not divorce against God's law? Yes or no? Did God give laws of divorce? He did! Therefore, divorce is a righteous act. Did God want Israel to fight their way into Canaan? No. When the people refused to follow God, did he give them rules of engagement? He did. There for these rules are righteous? Even in the hardness of our hearts, God meets us where we are. Did the people follow even these bad rules? No. What was the outcome? Israel was ruined.

It is funny that you use the example of cutting into flesh, because you have NO IDEA what I do nearly every day of my life. If you did, you would know how flat your example has fallen. Do note, there is a big different from cutting and removing, and killing.

I have given many examples of HOW God destroys. And the way He does, is that He no longer prevents the natural consequences of sin from happening. Sin is the problem, sin is the evil thing. Why is it evil? Because is destroys God's creation.

EGW: "The statutes and judgments given of God were good for the obedient. "They should live in them." But they were not good for the transgressor; for in the civil law given to Moses, punishment was to be inflicted on the transgressor, that others should be restrained by fear." {1SP 266.1}

There you have it! Being restrained by fear! THAT is really what God wants, you think? Well: "The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. {GC 498.3} So do we serve God from fear or love? Is we don't love Him, he will kill you!

I do not wish to belabor this point because as I stated before I have always believed as you have presented the truth here, but I had never read this quote from scripture before why would God say this GC?;

Deuteronomy 28:63
"And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you."

I had never read that before but it makes a very strong point

There seems to be an added level of resentment towards the special people of God who rebel against Him.

"Then I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, “Thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting.” I asked who this company were. The angel said, “These are they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up.” I heard them cry with a loud voice, “We have believed in Thy coming, and taught it with energy.” And while they were speaking, their eyes would fall upon their garments and see the writing, and then they would wail aloud. I saw that they had drunk of the deep waters, and fouled the residue with their feet—trodden the Sabbath underfoot—and that was why they were weighed in the balance and found wanting. {EW 36.2}

Can you feel the love people? I am so thankful that you are revealing yourself. You are trying curse me, and that is obvious.

You think you are so smart. You say "if you don't love, there is no light in you", then prove you do not know how to love.

Like Job, I have gone through hell too, and I loved God through it.

When my Grand father disowned me from our family because I became a Seventh Day Adventist, breaking from the Irish Catholic church, and took me out of his will for the Family fortune worth millions, Se Lave' the Lord Giveth and the Lord taketh away. My devotion to God was rewarded.

When my ex wife slept with six other men within the first year of our marriage and told me about it as she was moving out after I had done everything in my power to help her, The Lord Giveth and the Lord taketh away, now I have a much better wife.

When my sister was murdered by her boyfriend last year and the guy had the nerve to try to claim it wasn't him when there was blood all over him when he was caught and his cell phone records proved he was at the scene, and someone wanted to have him murdered, I pleaded with him not to. I shared with him 'that man will have his reward'. He was beaten to a pulp in jail just last week, and he is looking at life in that hell...

The hardest thing was the hate that I have been shown since I was wrong about the event of Satan appearing as an angel of light in the form of John Paul II. This is what I am having the hardest time dealing with because of my love for the church. Men talking among themselves as if it their duty to curse me behind my back and only hearing about it through the warnings of God and the gossip that gets back to me. Se' Lave'...

Heavenly Father; show this man who he is trying to curse in your name as if he speaks for you. Have mercy on him, but if he will not repent and continues to spread lies in your name, let your will be done and silence his voice from our church, in Jesus name amen.

"But the priests of Baal, even in their discomfiture and in the presence of divine glory, refused to repent. They would still remain the prophets of Baal. Thus they showed themselves ripe for destruction.
That repentant Israel might be protected from those who taught them to worship Baal, Elijah was directed by the Lord to destroy these false teachers. The anger of the people had already been aroused, and when Elijah gave the command, “Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape,” they were ready to obey. They took them to the brook Kishon, and there, before the close of the day that marked the beginning of decided reform, the ministers of Baal were slain." {SS 80.5}

Did God let them die of natural causes? How about plagues or wild beasts?

False teachers in Israel have a very bad ending, especially if they do not repent of their wickedness. Get it?

"Elisha was a man of mild and kindly spirit; but that he could also be stern is shown by his course when, on the way to Bethel, he was mocked by ungodly youth who had come out of the city. These youth had heard of Elijah’s ascension, and they made this solemn event the subject of their jeers, saying to Elisha, “Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.” At the sound of their mocking words the prophet turned back, and under the inspiration of the Almighty he pronounced a curse upon them. The awful judgment that followed was of God. “There came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two” of them. 2 Kings 2:23, 24. {PK 235.2}
Had Elisha allowed the mockery to pass unnoticed, he would have continued to be ridiculed and reviled by the rabble, and his mission to instruct and save in a time of grave national peril might have been defeated. This one instance of terrible severity was sufficient to command respect throughout his life. For fifty years he went in and out of the gate of Bethel, and to and fro in the land, from city to city, passing through crowds of idle, rude, dissolute youth; but none mocked him or made light of his qualifications as the prophet of the Most High. {PK 236.1}
Even kindness should have its limits. Authority must be maintained by a firm severity, or it will be received by many with mockery and contempt. The so-called tenderness, the coaxing and indulgence, used toward youth by parents and guardians, is one of the worst evils which can come upon them. In every family, firmness, decision, positive requirements, are essential. {PK 236.2}

But you would say this is severe wouldn't you APL?

jsot - you have been through a lot. I KNOW your pain. How can I know you say to yourself. Your history is not unique. Did God cause it? No. That is what you need to know. And do not think you are a corner on the pain and trials. The adversary, the source of ALL pain and suffering is after everyone, some more severely than others. 1 Corinthians 10:13 TCW Also remember that you haven’t had any temptation that others haven’t had. God is faithful and He will not let you be tempted beyond your strength but will provide a way of escape so you’ll be able to stand up against it.

It sounds to me that you are bitter about your own experience. I hope that is not true. But if it is, don't continue to dwell on it. Take to word of the Lord: Philippians 4:4-8 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. 5 Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you," says the LORD. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.

Remember Paul and Silas in their time of trouble, did they dwell on their misfortune? No. Acts 16:24-25 So the jailer put them into the inner dungeon and clamped their feet in the stocks. 25 Around midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to him against that day.

I would suggest your read chapter 90 in volume 5 of the Testimonies, titles The Character of God Revealed in Christ. Green should too since he feels we did not need the NT to understand the character of God.

I'm just wondering when there will be unity in the brotherhood, since what you claim and what my God shows me are so diametrically opposed I would think this would lead one to conclude we are not be considered brothers in the light of scripture. Especially since we are so close to the end of time. When will there be unity in the truth, which was a fundamental element of receiving the early rain and must be a part of the completion of the mystery of Godliness.

There will be no second opinions in the latter rain and we are very far from that. I see miracles and my God speaks to me, then men like you attack me for what I have been shown instead of trying to work through our differences and see the harmony in what He tells me. This I claim in the name of Jesus.

Men within the church who treat with contempt what our Father showed our prophet through the Spirit of Prophecy, make me very sad.

I have no contempt for The Spirit or Prophecy as shown in the Bible and Ellen White. But, are YOU claim to have the Spirit of Prophesy? Is that your claim?

The question is not if I have received the Spirit of Prophecy but if YOU have! I would argue that if you do not claim the Spirit of Prophecy you are lost!

"Secret prayer is frequently perverted... and secret prayer loses its softening, sacred influence. There is a storm of feeling, a storm of words, making it impossible to discern the still, small voice that speaks to the soul while engaged in its secret, true, heartfelt devotion. Secret prayer, properly carried out, is productive of great good. Sweet and abiding will be the influence emanating from Him who seeth in secret, whose ear is open to answer the prayer arising from the heart. By calm, simple faith the soul holds communion with God and gathers to itself divine rays of light to strengthen and sustain it to endure the conflicts of Satan. God is our tower of strength.—(Testimonies for the Church 2:189, 190.) {Pr 178.1}

"When the still small voice which succeeds the whirlwind and the tempest that moves the rocks out of position, is heard, let all cover their face, for God is very near. Let them hide themselves in Jesus Christ; for He is their hiding place. The cleft in the rock is hidden with His own pierced hand while the humble seeker waits in bowed attitude to hear what saith the Lord unto His servant.—Manuscript 84b, 1897. {2SM 316.1}

"The Spirit of the Lord, with its still, small voice, invites sinners to come to Christ, saying, “Turn ye, turn ye, for why will ye die?” “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” Divine wisdom suggests ways and means of reaching the conscience and the understanding. Precious facts in the history of revealed truth and in Christian experience were presented, and decisions were fully made on the Lord’s side. Sinners were led to behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. The Christian life, which had before seemed to them undesirable and full of inconsistencies, now appeared in its true light, in remarkable symmetry and beauty. He who had been to them as a root out of dry ground, without form or comeliness, became “the chiefest among ten thousand,” and the one altogether lovely. {RH February 12, 1889, par. 3}

If you do not have the Spirit of Prophecy then your whole intent and purpose here is proven to be evil!

But to answer more directly to your sinister intent, how did you find the Sabbath and the SDA church?

I was led led here and NO MAN taught me. I was praying and fasting and reading scripture for a whole week searching for God and when I read "The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath day" a light filled my mind and I heard the Still, Small voice say "this will lead you home to me".

So yes with all my soul I claim the Spirit of Prophecy and HE has never been wrong, although I have erred many times in my own strength rushing ahead of His promptings. But not all of my failures have been in my own strength either. Sometimes it has been listening to other flawed men.

So do you want to crucify me for heresy? Just the way worded that question proves who you serve and what you believe.

Every single person who was led to the upper room on Pentecost received the Spirit of Prophecy. Even before that day Jesus breathed the Spirit on men to prepare them for the outpouring of the Early rain, just as he has on me to prepare me for the LATTER RAIN.

In fact I would say if you do not have the Spirit of Prophecy and you are trying to teach men about scripture you have proven who resides inside you.

This does mean I am not above reproach or unable to fall from Grace either.

Jones and Wagoner were called the "servants of God" and "God's messengers" but did they die in this state? They had the Spirit of Prophecy and they fell.

But if you had received the powerful dreams that I have that showed my whole life in prophetic language and saw how it was fulfilled point by point I would hope that you would not deny the fact. But maybe you would.

"We are glad the truths it advocates are taking deep root in the hearts of God’s children, and that we can see indications of a greater growth of grace and spirituality among the remnant. And while we see the church coming up out of the wilderness, and preparing for the refreshing or latter rain that is soon to be bestowed upon the saints, we earnestly desire to rise with them, to heed the counsel of the faithful and true Witness, be zealous and repent, that we may be counted worthy to share these blessings, and to escape those things that are coming on the earth, and to stand before the Son of man when he appears. We know that ours is a blessed hope. The Apostle saith, Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 1 John 3:3. We want to be humble followers of the dear Saviour, to have the truth through which we are to be sanctified, in our hearts as well as in our heads. Paul exhorts us that we put off concerning the former conversation, the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of our mind; and that we put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. {ARSH May 5, 1859, p. 191.9}

So go ahead and make fun of me, see what that gets you in the end.

And people wonder why I respond the way I do? Evil and disbelief are EVERYWHERE in our church.

"The Lord is on the side of his people whom he is preparing for the advent. He is delivering his servants that have been oppressed by the Devil. Morning is breaking. The latter rain is coming. The powers of darkness cannot long prevail to hold in check the final work of the Lord. The Lord will work for the deliverance of all those who are living up to the light given. Let us heed all the teachings of the Lord; cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. Then the beaming light of the coming morning will shine upon us in all its splendor, and our pathway shall be as the shining light, which shineth more and more, even to the perfect day. {ARSH January 23, 1866, p. 60.13}

jsot - I know in whom I believe.

That's all you have to say? Do you remember what God told me about you not praying before on this thread? Carry on teaching what you think in your own strength. See what that gets you in the end.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2 Corinthians 10:18 John 8:54 Proverbs 27:2

That's interesting, you spend half your posts here railing on me like that was your purpose.

Should I say more? WHAT? The only thing I find offensive, is your picture of a God. You speak another gospel. Gospel by the way, is supposed to be Good News! As Christ says in Mark 1:14-15, you should repent, change your mind, and believe the Good News! Also Revelation 14:6ff.

Done.

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts

Yours is not His, you don't even hear His voice so how would you know? I have heard His voice and I am not ashamed to admit it. This was your problem with me remember?

ADMIN HAT ON!!!!

Thread closed for Staff Review.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!