The vernal equinox and the new moon.

While I have a fairly good working knowledge of the issues of linear time on a round earth, I may be having a mental block with the relationships of the vernal equinox and the new moon to the earth.

The Jewish calendar begins on the new moon after the vernal equinox. Whether you go by the real new moon or the sighting of the new moon, it shouldn't make much difference to the relationship.

The equinox can be defined when the sun is in the same plane as the earth's equator. This would occur at a precise theoretical point. I've also seen it defined when the amount of daylight equals the amount of night.

Is it possible for people in Jerusalem during Bible times to know when the sun is at the plane of the equator, that the day and night portions are the same at the equator, of which would be different in Jerusalem?

Or is it when the day and night lengths are equal in Jerusalem? I read that given an east-west line, such as a road, when the sun sets dead centered on it, that is when the day and night are equal.

Does this happen everywhere at the same time? If a day is 24 hours, then when the daylength is 12 hours, would be when day and night are equal.

Looking at http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=110 and searching for March for various places, I find the following when the day length is close to 12 hours:

Jerusalem, Israel - Mar 17, 2013

Toronto, Ontario, Canada - Mar 17, 2013

Dallas, Texas, United States - Mar 16, 2013

Sydney, New South Wales, Australia - Mar 24, 2013

Nukualofa, Tonga - Mar 26, 2013

Caracas, Venezuela - Mar 9, 2013


As you can see, the point when daytime is equal to nighttime varies considerably around the globe. I'm not sure I found the extremes since I don't completely understand it.

The new moon could have occurred between March 9 and March 26, within the ranges of the vernal equinox. Those with early dates for the equinox would then count the occurrence of the new moon as the beginning of the new month. However, those with the later dates for the vernal equinox would have to wait until the next new moon, since the new moon happened before the equinox.

Am I thinking through that part correctly?

Just found a later date:
Manaus, Amazonas, Brazil - May 1, 2013

That's about 53 days difference! There exists some years where two new moons would occur within that time frame.

I'm not really up on this subject. But aren't days and nights pretty much equal all year around at the equator, while the further away from the equator one travels the greater the difference becomes.

I know up north here in Canada there is a sense of joy around March 21 as we know the days are getting longer than the night, and then a sense of regret around September 21 as we know the nights are going to be longer than the days. Though I've never actually measured the exact number of hours.

Also wouldn't landscape have something to do with it. The sun rises considerably later and goes down considerably earlier in mountainous terrain, than on the prairies.

Also could the difference when that "equal day and night" occur, have something to do with the tilt of the earth and a shift of the poles from where they are marked on the map, --The magnetic north pole is currently shifting almost 40 miles a year -- be messing up the calculations?

Well, if you know there are times that the days are longer than the nights and there are other times the days are shorter than the nights, there exists some time in between when the days are about the same length as the night. I don't see the landscape having any relevance to the general issue as that also is an issue with when does the sun set. Does the sun set on a blind guy? The calculation would be on a general plane of the earth and the general lineup of the sun. It would either be that general plane at the equator or at the general plane of each location.

Yes, the tilt of the earth is the main thing which causes the sun appear to move from pole to pole. The sun doesn't move, but as the earth makes it's annual revolution around the sun, it's tilted axis causes the sun to shine differently on the earth.

Which brings up an interesting thought regarding the idea presented that the earth tilted on it's axis at the flood. If the earth should be perfectly vertical, there would be no spring and fall equinox. The relation of the length of day and night would remain the same throughout the year, assuming a year could even be calculated - (I suppose with the stars?)

As far as the magnetic pole goes, due west would mean in relation to the earth and not the compass. However, how would one calculate west? They could still calculate equal day and nights, and then at that point calculate west, but then it would be unnecessary.

kland,
Biblically the emphasis is on the abib (ripeness of the barley), and not on the vernal equinox. However, the ripeness of the barley is tied to the vernal equinox, so it's improbable that the new year could start before the vernal equinox.
In Babylon, where astronomy was advanced, astronomers developed a regular system of intercalation of embolimic months in such a way as to ensure that 1 Nisanu always began on the first crescent moon on or after the vernal equinox. Perhaps after the Babylonian captivity the Israelites brought this practice to Palestine. Thus, an Abib Report is preserved in the Talmud, dating to the first generation after the destruction of the Second Temple, which says: "The year may be intercalated on three grounds: 'aviv [i.e.the ripeness of barley], fruits of trees, and the equinox. On two of these grounds it should be intercalated, but not on one of them alone."
Anyway, the equinox could be determined by astronomical calculations. Thus, Josephus says that the Passover sacrifice is on the 14th of the first month of the year, Nisan, "when the sun is in Aries" (Antiquities 3.10.5).

The process is the following:

How does that apply in the Southern hemisphere? Ripeness of barley and fruits of trees would not happen at the equinox. As for that matter, what about anywhere north or south of Jerusalem? Does this mean different beginnings of the year for each location?

This doesn't have any application outside of Jerusalem. This was a Jewish calendar for Jewish feasts. The wave sheaf of barley had to be presented at the temple, in Jerusalem. The Jews in other parts of the world had to receive information from Jerusalem. And this arrangement should last only until Christ's death.

Jerusalem is the point of reference I agree. I think the Feast of Tabernacles and New Moons which we're told will be celebrated in the New Earth may well be calculated using Jerusalem as the reference point and using the same marker - the vernal equinox. The New Moons still need a starting point, a New Year, like the feasts do because celebrating the New Moons implies that a particular month in the yearly cycle is being observed.

"using Jerusalem as the reference point "

You mean the current literal Jerusalem? I understand the earth will be renewed. But yet, the new Jerusalem seems to come right down on the old.... ?

I'm not sure why there needs to be an annual starting point for a new moon since a new moon is, well, a new moon, no matter how many occur in a year. However, if you mean to determine a Feast of Tabernacles for a certain month, then that may well be.


If the reference point is for Jerusalem, then this would mean it was indeed a Jewish calendar with no relevance to anyone else elsewhere and not that those elsewhere were failing to follow the "true calendar". That it was only a Jerusalem calendar.




"And this arrangement should last only until Christ's death."

Any definitive determination for that? I think, with the agreement that Jerusalem being a reference point, is a good start. Not that it'd do much good for some, but I'm looking for a definite answer which would be hard to dispute.

Through Moses, God said He would choose a place and put His name there. Jerusalem is the place He chose. It makes sense to measure time in reference to that place because 1) that's where God dwelt; 2) it's where He will dwell eternally; 3) it is where His people assembled at divinely appointed times; and 4) it is where His people will assemble at similar divinely appointed times. So the Jewish calendar has a local reference point - Mt Zion - but it is universal in nature; it's where the twelve tribes that are now scattered abroad over the face of the earth, (James 1:1) will gather to the holy assemblies of the first born. Hebrews 12:22 and 23 and Ps. 122:3 and 4.

Mark, Ezekiel saw the glory of the Lord depart from Jerusalem. The physical Jerusalem today is no longer the place where he name of the Lord is anymore. It left during the time of Jeremiah when the Lord made it known through him that He will depart from Jerusalem(Jer 7:11-14) because of the corruption. Just like it departed from Shiloh(1Sam 4:21, Ps 78:59-69) for the same reason and never was seen there again. Then after Ezekiel saw the glory depart from Jerusalem and went to Mt. Olives which is located East side of the city. .

Ez 10:18 “Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims…Ez 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above. 23. And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which [is] on the east side of the city.

Here’s some interesting notes about Mount of Olives :

a) It is 2000 cubits from the city which is considered “outside the camp” and “a Sabbath day’s journey.”
b) It is said that this is where the ashes of the red heifer was stored(Num 19:3)
c) It is the place where David made his sacrifice(2 Sam 15:30) which b) & c) both pointed to Jesus sacrifice.
d) It is the place where Jesus often went to pray
e) Also the place He ascended in sight of his disciples 40 days after He died(Acts 1:12).

Then from the Mt.Olives the next place that the glory of the Lord was seen and manifested was at the upper room at Pentecost and the peple thre received an deposit of the Spirit.

So what you say above in various places is not true since Jeremiah & Ezekiel time. The old Jerusalem is no longer the place where His glory has been seen (or name is)and it is not prophecied that it will ever return there. Revelation talk that the glory of the Lord will be in the NEW Jerusalem which is composed of the body of believers. They are the living stones that compose the temple of the Lord and it is upon their forehead that the name of the Lord will be.

In regards to the sighting of the New Moon in Jerusalem, I am a feast keeper and have the Karaite Korner moon sighting monthly newsletter. However I had never look at this with this angle. You have answered a lingering question I had for a long time. Tx.

So Jerusalem is no longer important but you use it as an important reference point for calendars? And this makes sense, why?

Guess no sense has been made.

Ex 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
I've read some say the year's end means middle. They use the Hebrew word meaning revolution or circuit and say that means middle. Therefore, they say, since the middle of the year falls on the fall equinox, then the beginning of the year falls on the spring equinox.

However, this only works out if you start the beginning of the year at the spring equinox. Meaning, they are using circular reasoning. The question is, when does the year start. By saying it starts at the spring equinox and it's proved by the middle falling on the fall equinox makes no sense at all.

Then, there's the issue of why "end/revolution/course/circuit/come about" means "middle"....

Oh and,
Ex 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

which uses a different Hebrew word for "end" with various meanings such as come about, break out, bring forth, going out, lead out...

Do you think there will be an equinox on the new earth?

Somehow I think things will be different on the new earth -- no more -40 degree winters with several feet of snow and freezing winds, nor hot scorching summers.

Rather it will be perfect climate all the time.


Rev. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light:

Isaiah 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them

Time --
do you think there will be months and years on the New Earth?
Will we be counting time by years? or by eternities?


Somehow I don't think time will be reckoned by the moon.

In the New Jerusalem there is not need for sun or moon.

Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

Months will be reckoned by the tree of life.

Rev. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month:

Every month a new fruit will ripen on the tree of life.

If this is true, then Jerusalem should be the Prime Meridian Point, not Greenwich, England.

And if that is the case then the dateline should run through the eastern edge of Alaska. (180 degrees from Jerusalem) And Alaska, Hawaii, Tahiti, Samoa, Tonga etc. are all on Asian time.

Will the ripeness of the fruit determine the New Moon or will the New Moon determine the New Moon and the fruit follow the New Moon. In the beginning when God created the celestial bodies He gave them time-keeping authority - the sun to rule the day and the moon to rule the night. If the circuit of the sun defines a day and seven of these make a week so that the sun also defines the week it follows doesn't it that the moon defines the month which is independent of the week but not of the year which is defined by the sun.



The rule of the night by the moon implies that a month is the number of nights in the lunar cycle. The spiritual lesson is that the moon depicts our night of sin. We're not in total darkness because the Lord has given us a light in the darkness. That light is sufficient for us to know the way of Life. So in the Revelation, the pure woman is pictured as clothed with the Sun, the righteousness of Christ, with the Moon under her feet. She stands on the revealed Word of God which is like a lamp in the dark, lighting the path for her feet.

On a different topic I agree Dedication that the prime meridian should be Jerusalem. But I would hesitate to use that to settle the date-line issue. Local time-keeping is better I think.

We need to be careful….prophecies are not to be read literally. This has been made clear by the Lord Himself when He told Aaron and Myryam the difference between a Prophet and Moses. In Num 12:8 He said He speaks in “dark speeches”(chiydah) to prophets in visions and dreams. The Hebrew word chiydah means a puzzle, a riddle which needs to be solved. This means that all the prophets and the book of Revelation are spoken in “dark speeches” that requires that we learn the meanings of the symbolism used in the riddle to come to solve the puzzle.



This is a good example of solving a riddle and how to take prophecies.

I agree with Dedication that the barley ripeness was the OT way in determining which moon to start watching for the first crescent appearance to mark the "new year"(well at least the beginning of the feasts 7 months count). It was not by the vernal equinox despite that most of the time the Barley ripeness corellated after it.

Let us not forget that the whole law is prophetic as well as spiritual… meaning they are also symbolism that we refer as Types and Shadows that teaches us of greater things to come.

So what is the symbolic meaning of barley? It is the first crop to be riped and be harvested in the year. Barley represents the overcomers which are the firstfruit of all other crops. There are two other crops (wheat and grapes) that are also harvested and part of the feasts and its fruits ends up at the Lords table.



Now let us live by all the Words that proceeded from the mouth of God. He made clearly known that [old]Jerusalem is no longer the place that His name-glory dwell. It has not dwell there since Jeremiah's time and His presence did not return there since. The Lord said very clearly that it will not return there in the future either at some point of time like His glory never returned to Shiloh. (Jer 7:11-14; 1Sam 4:21, Ps 78:59-69)



That city in that text is the NEW Jerusalem where the temple is made with living stones. This is not to be mistaken with the OLD Jerusalem where the Lord clearly told us that His glory will never be seen there again.

There’s two Jerusalem in the Bible. It is in the NEW Jerusalem (people’s body temple) where the Lord will dwell. The Old Jerusalem and the sacrificial services with the Feasts were all types and shadows of things to come. In the body temple of the Overcomers(Barley Harvest) is where the glory&name of the Lord will be first be fully manifested. These people will have no need of the light of the sun(Jesus two works of conciliation) or the light of the moon (the Bible that lighten up our way to the "promise land")….BECAUSE the divine goal has already been reached and fulfilled in THEM. They are fully reconciliated and restored and the fullness of the Lord glory is dwelling in them.



I would see the NEW heavens and the NEW earth on the same lines as we are NEW creature in Christ. It will be NEW but not in all the literal sense.

I still don’t understand what v.23 means. At times a symbolism can have two meanings. I don’t think moon means Bible here but perhaps feasts by which it was the moons that determined the feasts.

The word Sabbath(H7676, shabbath) here is a different word than the 7day Sabbath(H7673, shabath). The difference between the two is h7676 is written with an additional beth character. Strong defined it as “intermission”. I haven’t noticed that word before and am surprise to see it used 111 times in the Bible including in the 10Cs and many other places in the law including the feasts. Something to look into that may shed some more light in the meaning of Sabbath. There is a distinction between h7673 and h7676 despite they both mean a type of rest and forbearance of debt.

In regards to the different Sabbaths(7th-day weekly, 7th-year, 7 ceremonial Sabbath feast days, and the Jubilee year) my understanding are they all point to the Jubilee, meaning that all these different "rest" are lesser Sabbaths pointing to the greatest of all Sabbath – the Jubilee. Basically, all Sabbaths points to the liberation from sin, total debt forgiveness, and restoration of man.

I don't use the Old Jerusalem as a reference point. The Old Jerusalem is no longer the place where believers go to keep the feast. The name and the glory of the Lord was last seen and manifested at Pentecost in the place on the forehead of believers. So the keeping of the feasts is to be observed within our minds (or hearts).

The feasts still needs to be kept but not by performing the literal ceremonial type and shaddows, but by having the spriritual meaning and real intent of the law performed in us. Literal circumcision of the flesh is no longer reguired but the spiritual circumcision of the heart is a MUST -- that is only posible by the two works of Christ.

In terms of keeping a calendar, the Lord is maintaining the same calendar since Adam which is based on a Jubilee cycle(49 years) that also comprises the feasts times. Not all things are fulfilled yet. The fall feasts, the law of Jubilee and other fulfillment of laws are still on course and yet to be fulfilled.

The Lord mainly makes worldly or major corporate events (prophecies) happened on feasts days or its types or other timelines (based on Types reveal in His word) that He make these known to His body(those that can hear) from year to year. He basically tells His body what (& why) He's doing before He does it by which at time the body is involve in some level.

And I'm not sure it can be said that the fruit only ripens once a month nor only one fruit at one time a year.

Except today, the moon only rules the night about half the time. The other half, it tries to rule the day. Think something went wrong?

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Now if the sun should be 7 times brighter/hotter and the moon as bright as the sun, what would happen if they should be ruling at the same time?

Some have speculated the heat would keep the water canopy suspended above the earth. If some of the time they are shining at the same time and other part of the time neither is shining, what would happen? Now if they were kept at exact opposites, then things would be much better, with each ruling the part they were designed for.

What are we really trying to discover?

In our solar system there is no other planet with a 24 hour day, except Mars. How is it elsewhere in the universe?






There are no records for worlds/planets outlide of our own solar system.

The question is, On which planet or where in the Universe is Heaven?