Revelation 13

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Would you mind summarizing your view of the mark of the beast?

But you would consider the antichrist is religious, right? Re 13:12 "And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and those dwelling in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

In contrast to those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus, the third angel points to another class, against whose errors a solemn and fearful warning is uttered: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God." Revelation 14:9, 10. A correct interpretation of the symbols employed is necessary to an understanding of this message. What is represented by the beast, the image, the mark? {GC 438.1}

THE BEAST SYMBOLIZES THE PAPACY. In chapter 13 (verses 1-10) is described another beast, "like unto a leopard," to which the dragon gave "his power, and his seat, and great authority." This symbol, as most Protestants have believed, represents the papacy, which succeeded to the power and seat and authority once held by the ancient Roman empire. Of the leopardlike beast it is declared: "There was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies. . . . And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." This prophecy, which is nearly identical with the description of the little horn of Daniel 7, unquestionably points to the papacy. {GC 439.1}

THE IMAGE BEAST SYMBLIZES APOSTATE PROTESTANT AMERICA. In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends. {GC 443.2} When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result. {GC 445.1}

THE MARK OF THE BEAST SYMBOLIZES THE ENFORCEMENT OF SUNDAY LAWS. But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than that of Rome, will thereby honor popery above God. He is paying homage to Rome and to the power which enforces the institution ordained by Rome. He is worshipping the beast and his image. As men then reject the institution which God has declared to be the sign of His authority, and honor in its stead that which Rome has chosen as the token of her supremacy, they will thereby accept the sign of allegiance to Rome--"the mark of the beast." And it is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive "the mark of the beast." {GC 449.1} The prophecy of Revelation 13 declares that the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns shall cause "the earth and them which dwell therein" to worship the papacy --there symbolized by the beast "like unto a leopard." The beast with two horns is also to say "to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast;" and, urthermore, it is to command all, "both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond," to receive the mark of the beast. Revelation 13:11-16. It has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with lamblike horns, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as the special acknowledgment of her supremacy. But in this homage to the papacy the United States will not be alone. The influence of Rome in the countries that once acknowledged her dominion is still far from being destroyed. And prophecy foretells a restoration of her power. "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Verse 3. The infliction of the deadly wound points to the downfall of the papacy in 1798. After this, says the prophet, "his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." Paul states plainly that the "man of sin" will continue until the second advent. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8. To the very close of time he will carry forward the work of deception. And the revelator declares, also referring to the papacy: "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life." Revelation 13:8. In both the Old and the New World, the papacy will receive homage in the honor paid to the Sunday institution, that rests solely upon the authority of the Roman Church. {GC 578.3}

James, please answer your questions. Thank you.

Yes, it helps. Is the beast and mark no longer an issue nowadays?

The beast nowadays is non-Christian governments and the mark is its currency. Does that summarize your view?

The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted. (Luke 16:13-15)

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I believe you are describing the 6th kingdom of Daniel. It has mostly fallen, and the 7th is starting to set up and come into play. But your statement is hinting at the attitude of the 7th, excepting it will be the persecutor of those who it determines as "wordly", that is, not following what it determines as "Christian". Re 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Queen, widow, her. Why depicted of female gender?

The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted.

Lest the thread wander off into unknown territory, why not tell us who is the beast and what is its mark. Or do you subscribe, like Mountain Man, to Ellen White's theology?

///

Can you flesh out the details?

1. How does the Bible symbolize the USA?
2. What do you mean by "beholden"?
3. Does the Bible specify the Atheistic Power?
4. How do you define "faithfulness" - Sabbath-keeping?

The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted. (Luke 16:13-15)

Lest the thread wander off into unknown territory, why not tell us who is the beast and what is its mark. Or do you subscribe, like Mountain Man, to Ellen White's theology?

The USA will become beholden to an Atheistic power and Christianity will become divided between worldliness and opportunism on the one hand and faithfulness to Jesus on the other. And the latter will be persecuted. (Luke 16:13-15)

beholden = "owing thanks or having a duty to someone in return for help or a service."

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience. {GC 588.1}

As spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of spiritualism, miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power. {GC 588.2}

The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church members love what the world loves and are ready to join with them, and Satan determines to unite them in one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium. {GC 588.3}

Through spiritualism, Satan appears as a benefactor of the race, healing the diseases of the people, and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith; but at the same time he works as a destroyer. His temptations are leading multitudes to ruin. Intemperance dethrones reason; sensual indulgence, strife, and bloodshed follow. Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC 589.1}

The Beast was the Roman Empire (Dan. 7:23).
The Mark of the Beast was the denarius (Mat. 22:21)

Hope this helps.

"Pius VI...This is the pope specified in prophecy, which received the deadly wound." {5MR 318.1}

"The beast with lamb-like horns commands "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." [Revelation 13:16, 17.] This is the mark concerning which the third angel utters his warning. It is the mark of the first beast, or the papacy, and is therefore to be sought among the distinguishing characteristics of that power. The prophet Daniel declared that the Roman Church, symbolized by the little horn, was to think to change times and laws, [Daniel 7:25.] while Paul styled it the man of sin, [2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4.] who was to exalt himself above God. Only by changing God's law could the papacy exalt itself above God; whoever should understandingly keep the law as thus changed would be giving supreme honor to that power by which the change was made. Such an act of obedience to papal laws would be a mark of allegiance to the pope in the place of God." {4SP 279.1}

This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism."{ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}

"The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902).

" Laws enforcing the observance of Sunday as the Sabbath will bring about a national apostasy from the principles of republicanism upon which the government has been founded. The religion of the papacy will be accepted by the rulers, and the law of God will be made void.--7MR 192 (1906)

The mark of the first beast in its healed state? or the mark of the second beast?

The mark -- is the supposed mark of authority of the first beast to change God's time and law.

The light we have received upon the third angel's message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll..." {6T 17.1}

“The third angel is represented as flying through the heavens, proclaiming a message to the world. If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God… [Revelation 14:9, 10]” (19MR 182.2)

"The light we have received upon the third angel's message is the true light. [If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God…]"

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The time has come when through God's messengers the scroll is being unrolled to the world. The truth contained in the first, second, and third angels' messages must go to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people; it must lighten the darkness of every continent, and extend to the islands of the sea. There must be no delay in this work. {GW 470.2}

The varying circumstances taking place in our world call for labor which will meet these peculiar developments. The Lord has need of men who are spiritually sharp and clear-sighted, men worked by the Holy Spirit, who are certainly receiving manna fresh from heaven. Upon the minds of such, God's Word flashes light, revealing to them more than ever before the safe path. The Holy Spirit works upon mind and heart. The time has come when through God's messengers the scroll is being unrolled to the world. Instructors in our schools should never be bound about by being told that they are to teach only what has been taught hitherto. Away with these restrictions. There is a God to give the message His people shall speak. Let not any minister feel under bonds or be gauged by men's measurement. The gospel must be fulfilled in accordance with the messages God sends. That which God gives His servants to speak today would not perhaps have been present truth twenty years ago, but it is God's message for this time. {1888 133.2}

The second beast is the one who gives the political power to enforce the "mark" in honor of the first beast.

Through paganism, and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his power... And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon's voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}

Antichrist, meaning all who exalt themselves against the will and work of God, will at the appointed time feel the wrath of Him who gave Himself that they might not perish but have eternal life. -- Manuscript 9, 1900. {3SM 402.1}

"Those who become confused in their understanding of the Word, who fail to see the meaning of antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist. There is no time now for us to assimilate with the world. Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves. {7BC 949.6}

“We can see the waymarks that are all along the way. When we are traveling along a road alone, and see a guide board; if we can read we know that we are at such a place; so it is if our minds are active and so consecrated to God that we can understand His workings, we can know just where we are in this world's history. Things we spoke of 25 years ago are just working up. The powers of darkness are working with an intensity from within, but God has been working for us, and He will work for us that Christ shall not have died in vain, that we may have of the life that runs parallel with the life of Jehovah. It is this little, little atom of a world that is absorbing all our force." {2SAT 48.5}

Secondly: who is the Beast?

That afternoon [November 2] he [Elder Bourdeau] had us accompany him to the Cathedral [in Valence, France] and look upon the bust of Pius VI who was noted in prophecy, who was led into captivity and died in captivity. Here was the one marked in history who received the deadly wound. --Letter 110, 1886, p. 2. (To W. C. White and wife, November 4, 1886.)

"We looked upon the bust of Pius VI. The marble statue beneath the bust contained the heart of the pope. This is the pope specified in prophecy, which received the deadly wound." {5MR 318.1}

"She has clothed herself in Christ-like garments; but she is unchanged." GC88 570.3

"“There is no question that Pope Francis has put a shine on the tarnished Catholic Church… In July, he did make child abuse illegal on Vatican grounds, including the creation and possession of child pornography and prostitution of minors… But he also made it illegal to leak secret documents kept sacred in the Holy See, effectively enabling church officials to continue to hide any evidence of a cover-up when it comes to sex crimes that have been reported to the Vatican.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...-sex-abuse.html

The last power “that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is…the United States” (ST, 2/8/1910 par. 5).

Thus Bush II is the first horn on the earth-beast.

But that is not what EGW says.

The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,--Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 6}

Republicanism and Protestantism. Not Bush II or Obama.

Who else is just as confused as I am?...

"Even the prophets who were favored with the special illumination of the Spirit, did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded, from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained." {GC88 344.1}

Am I really confused? You say I am. What you are saying is that the Adventist understanding, including EGW's, has been wrong, and you are right, that the two-horned powers are GWB and BHO. I don't see a contradiction of the scriptures. Take the ten kings - you are claiming they are individuals. But they do not need to be individuals, they are kingdoms. You ask, "What position are you taking? The Bible only or the Bible and the church fathers?" Were the Adventist church fathers wrong in their interpretations of the Bible on this point, confirmed by EGW? I think not. The question you should have asked, "are you going to be me, his child?" Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have not seen the evidence.

Am I really confused? ...

Take the ten kings - you are claiming they are individuals. But they do not need to be individuals, they are kingdoms. ... Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have not seen the evidence.

Pius VI. "This is the pope specified in prophecy, which received the deadly wound." {5MR 318.1}

"The number 7 indicates completeness, and is symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the history of the world." {AA 585.3}

" In the Scriptures are presented truths that relate especially to our own time. To the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, the prophecies of Scripture point, and here their warnings and threatenings pre-eminently apply. The prophetic periods of Daniel, extending to the very eve of the great consummation, throw a flood of light upon events then to transpire. The book of Revelation is also replete with warning and instruction for the last generation. The beloved John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, portrays the fearful and thrilling scenes connected with the close of earth's history, and presents the duties and dangers of God's people. None need remain in ignorance, none need be unprepared for the coming of the day of God." {RH, September 25, 1883 par. 6}

"The messengers God has seen fit to send have not been infallible. They have been weak, erring human beings; but the Lord wrought through them as they gave themselves up to his service. The word spoken was adapted to the necessities of God's people; the evidence of truth was clearly and distinctly presented. The reason the word did not have the desired effect on the hearers was not that there was a lack of evidence; for link after link was produced until the chain was complete; but the minds of the hearers were filled with prejudice. They were not willing to accept evidence, and tried to make the Bible sustain their ideas, instead of changing their ideas to meet the Bible." {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 12}

The horns are symbolic of men: that is Scripture.

The horns are symbolic of men: that is Scripture.

THAT is not a proven fact, and your interpretation rests on this being the truth. And the evidence does not support this. WE know what the little horn power is, but it is not a single man.

"Truth will always bear away the victory. Go straight forward. Do not take up the unbelief of anyone in order to try to convince him. If the Holy Spirit is turned from, all your words will not help remove, for the time being, the false presentations. Satan stands ready to invent more. If the evidence that has been given is rejected and falsified, all other evidence will be useless until there is seen the converting power of God upon the minds of those in error. If the convincing representations and impressions of the Holy Spirit evidenced for the past half century will not be accepted as trustworthy evidence, nothing will hereafter bring them to their senses, because the bewitching guile of Satan has perverted their discernment. They have been convinced again and again as the Holy Spirit has borne witness, and all that words can say will not be as forcible as the impression made by the Holy Spirit of God." {2SAT 281.7}

Characteristics: these are not what one claims to be, but what they are. The two-horned power, the US had the actual characteristics stated above, not claimed to have had. In your interpretation, the two horns do not rule at the same time, GWB then BHO. That is not how I read the prophesy.

"Prophecy represents Protestantism as having lamblike horns, but speaking like a dragon. Already we are beginning to hear the voice of the dragon. There is a satanic force propelling the Sunday movement, but it is concealed. Even the men who are engaged in the work, are themselves blinded to the results which will follow their movement. {7BC 975.5}

"It is the beast with lamb-like horns—in profession pure, gentle, and harmless— that speaks as a dragon. {GC88 442.2}

" "He had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Though professing to be followers of the Lamb of God, men become imbued with the spirit of the dragon. They profess to be meek and humble but they speak and legislate with the spirit of Satan, showing by their actions that they are the opposite of what they profess to be. This lamb-like power unites with the dragon in making war upon those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And Satan unites with Protestants and papists, acting in consort with them as the god of this world, dictating to men as if they were the subjects of his kingdom, to be handled and governed and controlled as he pleases." {14MR 162.1}

"...those who believe that God has communicated light and comfort to them through the Testimonies, it is time for the brethren and sisters to assert their liberty and perfect freedom of conscience. God has given them light, and it is their privilege to cherish the light and to speak of it to strengthen and encourage one another. Brother J would confuse the mind by seeking to make it appear that the light God has given through the Testimonies is an addition to the word of God, but in this he presents the matter in a false light. God has seen fit in this manner to bring the minds of His people to His word, to give them a clearer understanding of it. {4T 245.3}

"It is a dangerous thing for men to resist the Spirit of truth and grace and righteousness, because its manifestations are not according to their ideas, and have not come in the line of their methodical plans. The Lord works in his own way, and according to his own devising. Let men pray that they may be divested of self, and may be in harmony with heaven." {RH, May 5, 1896 par. 7}

"While God has given ample evidence for faith, he will never remove all excuse for unbelief. All who look for hooks to hang their doubts upon, will find them. And those who refuse to accept and obey God's Word until every objection has been removed, and there is no longer an opportunity for doubt, will never come to the light." {GC88 527.2}

I can only tell you how I read it.

"Prophecy represents Protestantism as having lamblike horns, but speaking like a dragon. Already we are beginning to hear the voice of the dragon. There is a satanic force propelling the Sunday movement, but it is concealed. Even the men who are engaged in the work, are themselves blinded to the results which will follow their movement. {7BC 975.5}

APL, I can only tell you how I read it. Every man has to work out his own salvation. When Jesus asks "How readest thou?" He will know if we are reading it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or contrary to the Holy Spirit's leading. "The horns are symbolic of men: that is Scripture." The statement was based on the evidence presented earlier: Daniel 7:24 "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings."

Daniel 8:20-21 "The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king." Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Your conclusion does not see the evidence as I read it: "THAT is not a proven fact, and your interpretation rests on this being the truth. And the evidence does not support this. WE know what the little horn power is, but it is not a single man."

Thus because you know the identity of the Little Horn Power, that knowledge sets aside a thus saith the Lord. And though you do not know that the Little Horn Power is prophetic history to explain a man that is to arise in the endtime that is wounded and survives. so that partial understanding that is incomplete is somehow more valid than all the other Scriptures combined.

Thus I am reminded of this important counsel:



You further assert:



Pagan Rome and papal Rome are viewed as though they were one even though they were two different powers. Likewise, I view Obama as an extension of GW. But my words are fallible human words to proclaim truth that is to much for me.

I can only tell you how I read it.

AH - BUT - you say it is the BIBLE that I reject when I reject YOUR reading. Which is it?

"Prophecy represents Protestantism as having lamblike horns, but speaking like a dragon. Already we are beginning to hear the voice of the dragon. There is a satanic force propelling the Sunday movement, but it is concealed. Even the men who are engaged in the work, are themselves blinded to the results which will follow their movement. {7BC 975.5}

Do you equate "men" with specific men? The voice had began to speak when she wrote this. Were GWB and BHO speaking back then? I don't think so.

Kings here mean KINGDOMS, all kingdoms have a succession of kings.

The ten horns of Daniel 7, were there till three were uprooted, yet from the fall of western Rome till the last of the three horns was "uprooted", each "horn" or kingdom had succession of kings.

Your reading is literal where "literal" doesn't make any sense, and the obvious understanding is "kingdom", whether it had one or thirty successive kings.

The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,--Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 6}

You are not the first to be confused. Lots of people mix up the LAMBLIKE characteristics of the horns described by EGW with the prophetic symbolism OF THE HORNS and forget that she supplements the Bible, but does not contradict it. Pray that the Holy Spirit will give you discernment.

Thus Bush II is the first horn of the earth-beast and Obama is the second.

The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,--Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 6}

You are not the first to be confused. Lots of people mix up the LAMBLIKE characteristics of the horns described by EGW with the prophetic symbolism OF THE HORNS and forget that she supplements the Bible, but does not contradict it. Pray that the Holy Spirit will give you discernment.

Thus Bush II is the first horn of the earth-beast and Obama is the second.

In what way does Bush II and Obama well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles?

"Republicanism and Protestantism. The Christian exiles who first fled to America, sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance, and they determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Millions from other lands have sought our shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth. {4SP 277.1}

"In fact, the prosperity, and social vitality and technological progress of a people are directly determined by extent of their liberty. Freedom honors and unleashes human creativity -- and creativity determines the strength and wealth of nations. Liberty is both the plan of Heaven for humanity, and the best hope for progress here on Earth." http://www.ned.org/george-w-bush/remarks-by-president-george-w-bush-at-the-20th-anniversary

“Americans practice different faiths in churches, synagogues, mosques and temples. And many good people practice no faith at all." http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/ 2002/03/20020330.html

"I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies the tools they need to take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedoms. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. That means no more national security letters to spy on Americans who are not suspected of committing a crime. No more tracking citizens who do no more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient." https://www.techdirt.com/articles/201306...veillance.shtml

“Whatever we once were, we’re no longer a Christian nation. At least not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, and a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers…” http://www.wnd.com/2008/06/67735/

It's really not that hard to predict that a pope who is 78 years of age at election, (in 2005) is going to be a short time pope?

Quite a few people were saying that his reign would be a short reign.

Probably, more authentic evidence would be more involved with what is the percentage of accuracy ?
And should we believe because once in a while things because there is 10 percent accuracy? But a 90 percent in accuracy?

In what way does Bush II and Obama well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles?

EGW defined Republicanism and Protestantism.



kland,
Are you suggesting that GW and BO do not at least give lip service to civil liberty and religious liberty?

I would venture to suppose, though I could be wrong, that a great many would tend disagree that BO is a secret to our prosperity as a nation.

What was the % of accuracy of the evidence in 1843 and 44? Lest we forget how God led His people in the past: and He does not promise to lead us any different.

Jesus did not come twice and when they got prophecy right about Jesus standing for His people in Heaven's Sanctuary, it was only by faith that they knew they were right.

They were wrong twice (Jesus did not come to the earth in 1843 or 1844) and they could not prove that they were right in 1844 when Jesus began the Investigative Judgment.

Please don't undermine people's confidence in the 1844 movement just to prove your ideas are correct.

There is a big DIFFERENCE!
Firstly the people back were studying authentic time lines in scripture. 2300, 1260

They could see the great time lines were all coming to an end. So they were calculating them. True, they counted a zero between BC and AD at first, and had to figure out what time of year the prophecies pointed to, but once they had that figured out, they KNEW Oct. 1844 marked the END of those time lines.
There would be time reckoning no longer. Never again would there be a test on "time" reckoning.

Other Millerites after 1844, kept reinterpreting the prophecies and time lines and continued to set dates that failed again and again.

Personally I do not see value in recasting the prophecies in order to make new time calls. All it does is weaken the foundation of our beliefs, as your post above shows.
And it also greatly weakens our message, for how can any message bear up when it needs to be changed with every new president?

We can view the current events and see that we are "at the door" of the final events,

but whether it's this president or the next, I don't worry about -- the presidential position of power can change in an instant, but the events thunder on to the climax.

When my posts are understood in context, they express my reading of the Scriptures and Spirit of Prophecy. But when they are not understood in context, one could suppose almost anything without knowing anything more than the little bit that was known at the onset.

Weaken them? I uphold them.

The difference you propose is imaginary

Do you imagine that there is a test on time now?

That is something between you and God.
the Lord gave Daniel visions of sea-beasts
the Lord sealed the vision until the time of the end
And at the time of the end Heaven's interpretation is that of earth-kings
So when Heaven moves from light to light and you stand still
the light you once had will eventually be in darkness

Do you prefer to go by sight rather than by faith?

When God declares that the sea-beasts are earth-kings you don't worry about it.

"So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

...they are symbolic sea beasts that LITERALLY are kingdoms on earth.

We don't take the interpretation and make symbols of the interpretation.

As to what pleases Satan --
I think he is the one that likes to bring in a lot of confusing theories, that fail, and have to be reinterpreted with every new president and pope, and then YES, people will say it will continue and that those people talking prophecy know nothing.

We have a sure word of prophecy -- and we should be preaching that instead of all these confusing theories.

I have never said anything about Christ not coming, --- I've always said we are living in the last days, Christ's second coming is at the door. But I do NOT fix my faith on any president. A president could change tomorrow for all you know.
But God's Word is sure.

" It is the word of God that you will find in the book of Revelation. There are those today who call the Revelation a sealed book. But it is a mystery unfolded. We need to understand what it tells us in regard to the scenes that are to take place in the last days of this earth's history. The enemy will bring in everything that he possibly can to carry out his deceptive designs. Are they not lacking in wisdom who have no desire to understand in regard to the things that are to take place on this earth?" {1SAT 340.4}

I guess you saw your way out from answering the questions. I do admit, that if I was in your predicament and saw the chance, I would have probably took it too.

Have you considered a rewrite of your book so it would be easier to support?

"The world around us is stirred from beneath with earnest activity in evil works, but apparently dead to all that pertains to their eternal interests. But although this seems to be the condition of those around us, and there is little to encourage us to hope for the conversion of souls, God requires those to whom he has committed his truth for these last days, to present the word to the fallen children of Adam, both in the world and among the churches. As Christ's witnesses, our commission is clear, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." We are to be waiting, watching, working. It is most inconsistent for the church to whom has been opened the treasures of truth, to be dull, worldly, and indifferent. Casting away all unbelief, we should by faith put every capability and every power into exercise." {RH, January 17, 1893 par. 2}