Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11

David Read's recent thought provoking article on the legacy of WWI in Advindicate stimulated me to revisit the final verses of Daniel 11. I thought I'd offer my view here not only to influence the collective opinion but to test the soundness of my own.

In the mid to late 1990's Jeff Pippenger and others popularized the view among conservative Adventists that the 1989 fall of communism fulfilled the prediction of the overrunning of the King of the South in Daniel 11:40 above. But this passage describes an armed military conflict and that didn't happen at the fall of the Berlin Wall, a bloodless event, thank the Lord. Later, in the aftermath of 9/11 when the allied forces invaded Iraq and Afghanistan we have a better match: The King of the South (if it is Islam) pushes at the King of the North (if this is NATO and it's allies) by bringing down the twin towers and the King of the North responds by overrunning parts of the middle east. But again this view also does not fulfill all of the particulars. The complete fulfillment of the text must be future.

The identity of the kings of the north and south isn't a fixed doctrine in Adventism. Opinions vary and that's healthy. I give my view below but again friends, please let me know your thoughts.

The statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 has legs of iron and feet of iron and clay. The legs represent the Roman empire and the successor of Rome, the beast and the image of it. Revelation 13 tells us that the world wonders after the beast and then endorses and worships the image of it. The final manifestation of the dragon is the image beast, Babylon, empowered by the lamb-like beast.

But Babylon is judged by her neighbors, the ten kings of the east (Rev. 16:12 and 17:12) which have their parallel in the ten toes in the feet of the image of Daniel 2 and the ten horns of the beast (Rev. 17:3 and 13:1). These ten kings burn her with fire and her destruction is so terrible and complete that the great men of the earth, the world's business leaders, withdraw far from Babylon to watch it burn from a distance. The ten kings from the east that humble Babylon are a coalition of the Asiatic powers. Time will tell which ones but we have some idea today of who they might be: Those holding enough power to unseat the whore, Babylon the Great.

So let's consider whether these ten kings are the same as the King of the South that also challenges Babylon, King of the North: Daniel 11 tells us that at the end the King of the South pushes at the King of the North but is overwhelmed and overrun by the King of the North. In contrast the ten kings of the East prevail against Babylon, King of the North. At the sixth plague they are the Divine instrument of wrath fulfilling the prophetic word that “he (the King of the North) shall come to his end, and none shall help him.” (Dan. 11:45). Here is the parallel description in Revelation 16 where the King of the North is defeated at Armageddon:



Notice that the Euphrates is dried up and this is what fully unleashes the the winds of strife. Compare the above passage with the parallel passage below:



The terrible description above is of a global incendiary conflict that will unseat the whore. Shortly before this point Babylon, King of the North has overrun the King of the South, drying up the buffer of the ancient Islamic states that occupied the Euphrates valley. As an occupying force the King of the North has planted his tabernacle between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. (See Daniel 11:45 above.)

For these and other reasons Islam is a front running candidate for the King of the South. Yet, the King of the South if not completely overwhelmed by the King of the North, could be part of the final 10 king coalition, the ten toes and horns, that destroy Babylon.

The climax of the story however is when the kingdoms of earth are restored to Christ. The stone cut out without hands pulverizes the feet and the entire image, the wind sweeps the dust away and the stone becomes a mighty mountain filling the earth.

PS. Above I've focused on the literal application of Armageddon and the literal fulfillment of the King of the North placing his seat of government between the sea and the Holy Mount. Both of these events have important parallel spiritual applications that I haven't covered above. For example Ellen White repeatedly speaks of Armageddon as the spiritual battle that is the result of the enraging of the wicked by the outpouring of the latter rain.

Mark, please fill in the blanks:

1) Babylon symbolizes . . .
2) The kings of the east symbolize . . .
3) The king of the north symbolizes . . .
4) The king of the south symbolizes . . .
5) The battle of Armageddon symbolizes . . .
6) The Euphrates drying up symbolizes . . .

Brother, good suggestion to summarize what I wrote above in a nutshell:

1) Babylon symbolizes . . . the whore, the impure church, the man of sin, the coalition of the dragon, beast and false prophet, and the image beast empowered by the lamb-like beast.
2) The kings of the east symbolize . . . a coalition of certain Asiatic nations yet unknown.
3) The king of the north symbolizes . . . the political manifestation of Babylon (which is a combination of church and state.)
4) The king of the south symbolizes . . . radical Islam.
5) The battle of Armageddon symbolizes . . . a)the literal battle between the militaries of Babylon and the ten Asiatic powers and b) the spiritual battle between Babylon and the pure woman, the remnant church.
6) The Euphrates drying up symbolizes . . . the over-running of radical Islam by the King of the North, especially in the Euphrates valley.

Interesting.

I can agree with
King of the north (the political manifestation of Babylon-- the whore, the impure church, the man of sin, the coalition of the dragon, beast and false prophet, and the image beast empowered by the lamb-like beast.

And
King of the south representing Islamic nations

Though I have some problem seeing the kings of the east as Asian nations.

Here's why --

1. "the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

Here we need to ask -- what does the beast which produces and empowers the ten horns represent?
This beast also supports and carries Babylon?

Yet the ten horns "give their kingdom unto the beast," they "give their power and strength unto the beast"

The question always arises --
What does the "whore" Babylon represent?
What does Rev. 17's beast represent?


Personally, I don't believe the ten horns are the "kings of the east" at all. The ten are kings aligned with the beast.

Another question:
When do does the beast, false prophet, etc, meet their end?
See Rev. 19 --

In Revelation 19 we see the armies of heaven riding forth.
The beast and the false prophet and the kings of the earth are still fighting but can't stand against the armies of heaven.

So who are the kings of the EAST?
They are the armies of heaven led by the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Matt. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Rev. 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God:
EGW affirms that Christ's coming is "from the east". (Early Writings p. 15 and GC 641)

So how does it all fit?

The beast and woman in Revelation 17 identifies the union of state supporting the church. The woman representing the religious power, the beast with it's ten horns representing the political power, and together they form the last day coalition.
They are the ones to subdue and overrun the Islamic nations, setting up something in the so called "holy land" thus appearing to fulfil the prophetic understanding many Christians have adopted that Christ's kingdom will be set up in Palestine. I also believe the 8th head is Satan impersonating Christ, thus rounding out the expectation of Christ setting up a kingdom in in present day Palestine.

The news from the east that greatly upsets the king of the north, is the message that the REAL Christ is coming from the east. Like Herod of old, when he hears the true king is coming, he seeks to destroy the very idea. With great fury the death decree is issued against all who do not accept the counterfeit kingdom with its worship of the counterfeit Christ, who is supported by the beast, false prophet et al.

But before the death decree is carried out, God delivers His people. (This is not yet the second coming) but a great exhibition of God's power as everything in nature is turned out of its course, and God speaks and blesses His faithful and reveals His law from the heavens.

This is when the HORNS turn on the religious leaders. The beast with its horns devour the religious leaders. (See GC 656)

Then that cloud from the east appears. Earth's warring is ended as the unsaved perish, while the saved are caught up in the clouds to be forever with Jesus.

Very very good Dedication. Your view of the ten horns/ten kings of the beast of chapter 17 is more scriptural. I agree with it at this point.

I liked this statement:

I'm still studying your commentary. I'm very close to your view. . . More later today, Lord willing. Thank you again!

Mark, thank you for sharing. As always I appreciate your insights and ideas. I will share more later.

The one hour reign of the ten kings is brief, but long enough to destroy the whore. This one hour period, a prophetic hour of about 15 literal days, (in my view) is mentioned twice underscoring the certainty of the duration: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.” “The merchants of the earth," that have "waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies," "shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, and saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought.” Revelation 17:12, 13,16; 18:11, 3, 15-17.

My reservation with equating the ten horns/kings of Revelation 17 to merely a popular movement against the false religious leaders of the Babylon is that it breaks the symbolism of the horns as kings or nations. If it was simply an anarchy of every man for himself what would be the point of representing them as 10 horns? Apparently even though the final rule of the ten kings is brief, there will be some strong leadership at a national and international level that provides cohesion to the movement to unseat the whore. This may help explain why it is done so swiftly and effectively – it's managed by 10 well coordinated powers.

The other reservation I have is putting the reign of the ten horns after the close of probation. It seems odd to have probation close and then have another blood bath but that may be just my own prejudice - it's so novel to me that I have to struggle a little to get my mind around it. Overall I'm in favor of that view because we know that the death decree will close probation for Babylon. It makes sense that Babylon is in power when she closes her own probation. By pronouncing death on the innocent she condemns herself and commits the abomination of her own desolation.

Revelation 17 is not the easiest chapter.
There is considerable diversity concerning the meaning of the symbols, especially since the harlot and the beast both seem to represent Babylon. The one (harlot) representing the religious component, while the beast with its ten horns represents the political component.

In Revelation 13 we generally have no problem saying the seven headed, ten horned beast represents papal Rome. The religious and political components were one in that chapter. But in Revelation 17 we say the woman represents papal Rome with her daughters (protestants who have lost their protest), the religious aspect, sitting on the beast that also represents papal Rome but the focus is on the use of political power to enact her power over the nations.



The one hour reign

During that one hour the ten horns reign WITH THE BEAST. The ten horns are not against the beast, they single mindedly work with the beast, reigning with the beast for one hour. The ten horns are part of the system. This alliance will continue one hour. “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. (Revelation 17:13)

These ten kings are not ordinary kings, in that they don't have a kingdom. So they are not regular nations.
Usually “kings” is linked to kingdoms – but these ten have no kingdom, YET, and don’t receive it until that hour – when they “receive power as kings one hour with the beast”

REGIONALISM and GLOBAL GOVERNANCE may well be the “ten kings” that have not yet received their kingdom and won’t until that hour. They are set up by the “beast”. The plan has been in experiment stage for several years now. Its aim is to erase national borders and divide the world into ten regions each with its own single currency. North America is region #1 consisting of USA, Canada, and Mexico. Region #2 is Europe which already has it’s Euro, and free border inter region border crossings. Region #6 is South America. These regions would be easier to control than a lot of independent little countries.


Maybe we also need to look at the “one hour” a little more.? Is the hour in which the ten horns receive their kingdom and reign with the beast, the same hour in which Babylon is destroyed? Or are there two separate “hours”, one preceding the other?

One hour of reigning with the beast – followed by one hour of the political leaders (kings over the ten regions) turning on the religious leaders when they see their plan of controlling the world isn’t going to work.

I tend to agree that the time frame when this confederation comes together and the ten horns reign with the beast begins most likely prior to the close of probation. Yet the demise of the papal beast and false prophet (which constitute Babylon) occurs AFTER probation has closed.

So is it possible the ten reign with the beast an hour beginning prior to probations close. And the one hour when they turn on Babylon to be later after probation has closed?

Scripture fully supports that the greatest bloody war occurs at the very end. All restraint on violence is removed. The only ones protected are those under the “wings” of our Savior.


Another question – is the “one hour” prophetic time or is it an expression of “a short time”?

Could its use be in connection with the hour "watches" of ancient Judaism, and it's use alerting us to "watch and pray" as the end scenes are about to come?

Didn't Prophetic Time (symbolic day/year reckoning) end in 1844?

I think the day/year principle is valid here because 1) a literal hour is too short for 10 powers to unseat the world's dominant empire and 2) if the intention is to tell us merely that the duration is short, then the inspired text would convey that thought, but since it uses a unit of time measurement we need to take that as literally as we can.

Christ states that there are 12 hours in a day. A modern day has 24 hours but a scriptural day, from sunset to sunset has 12 hours according to the Lord. If we use the day for year principle, one hour is one twelveth of a year or a month.

What are your thoughts on the drying up of the Euphrates, Dedication, anyone?

I would tend to agree with dedication for the most part. Especially I would object to "The ten kings from the east that humble Babylon are a coalition of the Asiatic powers. " Why Asiatic?

News from the East is Good News! For some. Not so for others as the message is to come out of Babylon.

A river into Babylon is life. Drying up the river is drying up life. I see it as probation has closed for everyone, there are no more messages for coming out of Babylon.

We are told that all the kings of the earth will form alliances with Babylon. At the end, they will turn on Babylon for misleading them. Could not these be the 10 kings? For a short time, like 15 days, before they realize the mistake?


(I disagree with your 12 hours in a day part. For many today could say, are there not 8 hours in a day and they wouldn't be saying anything about daylength, but about how long is it for working. You can only work during daytime in the harvest fields. And besides, you would erode the past 2300 days prophecy)

Very nicely put.
The river is dried up at the beginning of the sixth plague -- probation is closed.
The river was also Babylon's protection.
But here Babylon is without protection, God's Holy Spirit is totally withdrawn.


That is supported by the text. Revelation 17 tells us that the ten horns (ten kings) with one mind give their power and support to the beast for one hour. They receive their kingship during this time and use it in full devotion to the beast.

The one hour

"one hour" can simply mean a period of time or a season.
I tend to see it as referring to "the last hour" of earths history.

We do see it used that way in other scripture.

The first angel's message declares "the hour of his judgment is come" Rev. 14:7
The message to the sixth church: " I also will keep thee from the hour G5610 of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, Rev. 3:10

1 John 1:28 "Little children, it is the last hour G5610, and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,"

John 5:25 "The hour G5610 is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

Speaking of John the Baptist
John 5:35 John He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season G5610 (for an hour) to rejoice in his light.

Luke 20:23 this is your hour, G5610 and the power of darkness.


The ten horns reign with the beast for a short time, then when the evidence is given that Gods people are right, these horns turn on Babylon.

This hour question isn't a big issue so I won't belabor it except to make a final comment. Here are the texts we're looking at:
,
Rev_17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
Rev_18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."
Rev_18:17 For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste." And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off
Rev_18:19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! For in a single hour she has been laid waste.

In each case the word hour is preceded by “one” or “single”, which tells us a specific rather than vague amount of time.

Regarding the hours of the Jewish day, I'm wrong on that point. I see now that the Jews did have twelve daylight hours. For example, the vineyard keeper came to the market place to hire 11th hour workers. This was when one hour of daylight remained. So I'm reverting the the 15 day time frame, but again, this is a minor point.

I'm still studying the drying of the Euphrates. Thank you for your thoughts.

I looked it up in the Greek and had expected a different word. But it's the same. However, when you read, the hour of His judgment is come, the context doesn't really suggest a time length to me but a period of time or season. Similar but different. When it says "for one hour", that to me suggests a specific time frame. Whether it is viewed as 15 days or a short period of time, it is still a specific time versus a more vague hour of judgment. I personally tend to go with it being symbolic time, not that it would really matter much to anyone during that time. At least not during the meltdown hour. But that hour of reign, when everything is completely against God's people, it can be a promise to them that it won't last long.

My study re:

Kings of the North___________________Kings of the South

Babylon (605-539 BC)_________________Egypt (605 BC-1798 AD)
Medo-Persia (539-331)
Greece (331-168)
Imperial Rome (168 BC-1453 AD)

Ottoman Empire (1453-1840)___________France (1798-1870 AD)
Great Britain (1840-1941)____________Italy (1870-1945)

(USA*) King of the North
Franklin D. Roosevelt (1941-1945)___Mussolini (1922-1945)

Truman (1945-1953)__________________Egypt (1945-1973)
Eisenhower (1953-1961)
John F. Kennedy (1961-1963)
LB Johnson (1963-1969)
Richard Nixon (1969-1974)___________bin Laden (1973-2001)
Gerald Ford (1974-1977)
Jimmy Carter (1977-1981)
Ronald Wilson Reagan (1981-1989)
George HW Bush (1989-1993)
William j. Clinton (1993-2001)

George W. Bush (2001-2009)__________Afghanistan (2001-2003)
____________________________________Iraq (2003-2010)

Barack Obama (2009…)________________Iran (2010…)

*The last power “that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is…the United States” (ST, 2/8/1910 par. 5).

This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is represented by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}

The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,--Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 6}

The two horns = Republicanism and Protestantism.

One reason I do not think Obama is the last president is because he is too friendly with the Muslim side. In the near future there will be a dramatic shift.

Watch this video.

http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?bcid=1509282970001

How do you understand it in prophecy?

I see it as the king of the south pushing against the king of the North.

(King of south – Muslims
King of north – Papacy and Christian Allies-- especially the USA)





A leader in the USA will arise who will (with the aid of the ten horns and under the blessings of the papacy, rise against what you just saw on that video.
The problem though -- they will also impose religion upon the world -- the Catholic version, so it won't be any better.

That is how you read it. But not all will read it right even though it is clearly set forth.


The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,--Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 6}

In Bible prophecy, horns still symbolize people like the first king and the kings of the Medes and Persians (see Daniel 8:20-22 and "ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings," Revelation 17:12)

God is not the author of confusion. His word clearly states that horns symbolize individuals (kings) and the Spirit of prophecy clearly explains that the "lamblike" characteristics of those individuals that control the Government will be as expressed in its two fundamental principles,--Republicanism and Protestantism. But when this is studied completely, it is a guise. These men speak as a dragon.

But not everyone is going to understand. Ellen understood:

"The Lord shall judge the ends of the earth; and He shall give strength unto His king, and exalt the horn of His anointed." {ST, October 27, 1881 par. 19}

I addressed the Euphrates in my last post.

Regarding the day for a year: EGW clearly states that it is a valid prophetic tool and she cites it in regards to the 1260-days for the papacy as 1260-years from AD 538 to 1798.

But she also says:



I recently double checked this quote with the EGW Estates in DC. Brother Fagal pulled the original document and e-mailed me to say "So it does indeed refer to these verses in Revelation 13, and this is the prophecy that she mentioned just before the reference." "I confirmed it by going to the manuscript, where the verses were written out."

EGW stated "Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy." followed by quoting "13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months..."

This 42 months cannot be a day for a year when it has its final fulfillment. It has a final fulfillment or EGW would not have quoted it in that context. And this is EGW saying that a literal 42-months will take place after 1844 and before Christ comes, which proves that her statements about prophetic time have been misunderstood and twisted to say something that she clearly did not say. She uses the term prophetic time specifically to mean "the exact time of Christ's advent" not time prophecy in general that interposes between 1844 and Christ's Advent.

The trash that has crept into Adventism since 1844 has cast its shadow over the light of Present Truth long enough. God's people need to get out from under Satan's shadow and follow the light.

HC, can you clarify a couple things for me? What is the drying up of the Euphrates? I'm not sure I understood. And regarding the 3.5 years or 42 months, you're saying that since they are literal the one hour is literal too?

Hey Mark,

In Rev 17:15 waters are peoples, tongues and multitudes.
Euphrates River is a literal river. When Babylon fell, the Euphrates River was literally dried up by Cyrus.

As I watch the world situation, now: ISIS is literally causing the Christians to flee from the area in Iraq that correlates with the tributaries of the Euphrates and the flow of the Euphrates river itself.

And since Daniel and Revelation are to be understood by their fulfillment in these last days, I have to consider that this is related to the prophecy that the way of the kings of the east will be prepared before Christ comes.

I do not venture to say that this is the only meaning, but that it must be considered less we overlook something of significance. And this event does not necessarily mean that other meanings might not be applicable. it is a matter worthy of our study.

Hey Mark,

The hour in Rev 17:12 can be literal, or it can be based on the day for a year calculation, or it can be linked to the day for 1000-years calculation. That hour fits the day=1000-year model when the restored papacy is allotted 83-years 4-months from 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013. But that may not be the final meaning.

The 3.5 years were a day for a day: 1260-days for Christ's ministry. Note that Christ's ministry began after He lived for 30-years. Then Christ died Friday, rested Sabbath and arose Sunday (early on the first day).

"Then to learn what the image is like, and how it is to be formed, we must study the characteristics of the beast itself, —the papacy. " {GC88 443.2}

The papacy counterfeited the life of Christ. The 3.5 years in Christ's life were a day for a year: 1260-years for the papacy to reign from AD 538 to 1798. Did you notice that the papacy began to be exalted by King Clovis the Frank in 508 AD and that process continued until 538 when Emperor Justinian selected Vigilus as pope. Note the counterfeit was in literal time here 30-years = 30-years. And as Christ had victory over three temptations at the end of the 30-years when He was anointed, the papacy's allies uprooted 3 Arian tribes during the 30-years. Likewise as Christ died Friday, Pope Pius VI died in the year of captivity (1798). Then as Christ rested in the grave Sabbath, the papacy rested - there was no pope in 1799. And as Christ arose Sunday, the papacy arose in 1800 when Pius VII was installed as pope.

I noticed that the papacy counterfeited the life of Christ as literal time for the 30-years. Then it counterfeited Christ's 3.5 years and 3 days for death, resting in the tomb, and resurrection as a day for a year.

And notice how Christ's 3 days for death, resting in the tomb, and resurrection compare to the 1000-year day measurement of time. Christ was alive when Friday began which is comparable to the first millennia of the Christian era. He was in His grave the second day (no longer physically present with His disciples in the second millennia). And Christ returned to His disciples to be with them when He arose early on the third (His Second advent will be early in the third millennia).

Thus my study comparing the papacy's counterfeiting of Christ's life shows instances where time was literal, & a day for a year, and potentially a day for 1000-years. And the latter application fits the sin problem: 6000-years for sin to run its course and the last 1000-years is a millennial Sabbath.

Thus an hour can be literal time, or based on a day for a year calculation, or be based on a day for a 1000-years.

Context can be helpful to determine the meaning. But as with the Life of Christ: the 3.5 years were literal for Him BUT a day for a year for the papacy when it counterfeited Christ's life.

When a time prophecy meets its fulfillment, that can help us to confirm how it was intended to be read if we understand it rightly.

Hope that helps
Let me know if I did not answer what you asked. Sometimes my dyslexia kicks in and I misread what was being asked or unintentionally go with an aside.

Thanks HC. You answered both and gave me some food for thought. Have a good Sabbath.

Below I've juxtaposed two inspired sources. The first is part of Rev. 17 and the second is some commentary on it by Ellen White.






In these quotes Ellen White says that Protestantism is represented by ten horns that give their kingdom to the Harlot. Most of us probably agree there. If that's so, what it also suggests to me is that Protestantism is initially content to support the whore but at the end for one hour it devours the whore. This may not be the same thing as when after the close of probation the laymen turn on their religious leaders. In the case of the ten kings, assuming for the moment that it is Protestantism, the picture we have is that initially the Protestant leaders support the Whore and then at the end devour her. What do you all think?

Another thought: If the ten horn are Protestantism, what implications does that have for interpreting the seven kings and mountains and the eighth head? And who are the ten horns?

Brother Mark, this may help concerning your interest in Rev. 17.

Concerning Rev. 7:7-13 -- "Here is a beast whose make-up is similar to that of the leopard-like beast of chapter 13. The horns of this scarlet-colored beast, though, are crownless, and none of his heads are wounded. Also, rather than having the name of Blasphemy written only over his heads, his whole body is full of names of blasphemies.

In previous studies we learned that the leopard-like beast symbolizes the world from the fall of Pagan Rome to our time (The Great Controversy, pg. 442). Now, since the scarlet-colored beast also has ten horns and seven heads, it is again seen that he, too, is in the stream of time a symbol of the world with its civil and religious powers -- horns and heads.

Inasmuch as his head is not wounded as is the head of the leopard-like beast, and since the wound of the leopard-like is healed, it is clear that the scarlet-colored beast represents the world in the time the wound is healed, in the time the two-horned beast (Rev. 13:11-18) makes a likeness of the leopard-like beast in its pre-wounded state.

You notice that the horns of Daniel's fourth beast were crownless, and the horns of John's leopard-like beast crowned, and again that the horns of the scarlet-colored beast are crownless. Inspiration by means of these symbolical beasts portrays three periods of time, one following the other: (1) the period before the European kings received their crowns; (2) the period in which they were crowned; (3) a period of crownless kings in which Babylon the Great reigns supreme.

The fact that nearly all crowned kings of the world have already been dethroned is proof in itself that Period No. 2, the period of the leopard-like beast (crowned horns) is about to pass away, and that Period No. 3, the period of the scarlet-colored beast (crownless horns) is about to be ushered in. In order to make the transition, the present distress of the nations is therefore inevitable.

Rev. 17:14-18 -- "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And He saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Again, the fact that the ten horns (kings) have one mind (unlike the toe-kings of Daniel 2:42, 43), but have no kingdom of their own, besides the fact that the woman rules the beast, and also the fact that the Communist leaders (crownless kings) of the nations and have one mind (work together for one common cause), -- all these facts show that though Communism appears to be the next power to rule the world, this symbolical prophecy points out that the world will next be ruled by an international religious system, by Babylon the Great, a rival of the religion of Christ, and a counterfeit of the woman in Revelation chapter 12. The scarlet-colored beast, therefore, is the symbol of the world government into which the United Nations will finally evolve.

Since those who have no part in the first resurrection, all the unrepentant sinners from the beginning of the world to the Millennium, are to be resurrected after the 1000 years, they will then positively discover that their names were not written "in the Book of Life", -- no, not one of them, even from the foundation of the world.

The truth thus stands out clearly that then only will they behold the beast in its three phases ("that was, and is not, and yet is"); that is, he "was" before the Millennium; "and is not" during the Millennium; "and yet is" after the Millennium.

He "is not" during the 1000 years because at the commencement of the 1000 years, the beast and the false prophet are "cast into the lake of fire," then the "remnant," all the rest who came not out of Babylon's domain, are "slain with the sword" of the "King of kings, and Lord of lords." Rev. 19:21, 16.

To summarize, having lived before the Millennium, and also after the Millennium, and being dead during the Millennium, the beast is seen in three phases, in three periods: the pre-millennial in which he "was," the millennial in which "he is not" and post-millennial, in which he "is."

He "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" (out of the pit, in which Satan himself is to be bound for a 1000 years), and then "go into perdition" (Rev. 17:8); that is, he will shortly be put to his second death from which there is no resurrection.

"He is the eighth, and is of the seven"; that is, there are four beasts in Daniel 7, two in Revelation 13, and one in chapter 17 -- seven beasts in all. But the seventh lives twice, and thus after his resurrection "he is the eighth," but "is of the seven." Then he goes into perdition, -- suffers the second death.

The statement, "and there are seven kings," shows that these kings are not in the symbolism; that is, they are not the horns, nor are they the heads. All the horns and the heads are present on the beast, whereas the "seven kings" are not there symbolized -- five are fallen, one is, and the other is yet to come.

We must fully realize that God through this symbolism summarizes the history of the entire world, for the beast, as I said before, is symbolical not only of the pre-millennial world but also of the post-millennial wicked world. The seven kings of kingdoms "from the foundation of the world before the flood;


(1) The ancient world before the flood;
(2) The ancient Babylonian Empire;
(3) The Medo-Persian Empire;
(4) the Grecian Empire;
(5) The Roman Empire. These are fallen.
(6) The one that is, is the world to which the present distress of nations is to give birth (the pre-millennial), and of which the beast itself, in his first phase, is the symbol. And
(7) the one that is to come, is the world after the 1000 years, of which the beast itself, in its third phase, is also a symbol.

Thus along with this symbolism the world of sin is represented from its beginning to its very end. This beast, therefore, is the symbolical summary of the whole world.

The "one hour" is obviously the time from the eleventh to the twelfth allegorical hours as set forth in Matthew 20:6.

Number ten in this instance, as elsewhere in the Bible, carries the meaning of universality. The ten kings have no kingdom while the woman drives the beast, but jointly with the beast they will have power as kings. The phrase, "as yet," implies that after the one hour they will receive their kingdom.

Rev. 17:14 -- "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

These kings are to be anti-religious and therefore anti-Christian. They shall eventually make war with the Lord and with His called, chosen, and faithful ones, but "the Lamb shall overcome" the kings.

The woman, as shown before, is the symbol of a confederated religious system with which the horns are not only in disagreement but are also her enemies. Consequently, after the symbolical hour is passed, they unseat her from the beast, make her desolate, and burn her with fire. Then it is that they receive their kingdom "for a season and time." Dan. 7:12.

Rev. 17:17 -- "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

The call to come out of Babylon (Rev. 18:4), is a call to God's people to come out of her geographic dominion."

(Taken from Timely Greetings, vol.2 , no.18, p.18-23) For some of you who may be wondering, the "Timely Greetings" volumes, were sermon addresses that brother Houteff gave in the 1940's and 1950's)

Interesting GLL. I've read it through. I'll look at it more carefully now. In the mean time, is that totally the same way you see it?

By the way, the GC 442 reference (which is in paragraph 2 of your post) states the beast of Revelation 13 is the papacy. This is actually most clearly stated at page 443. But Ellen White is known to frequently give more than one interpretation to the same passage and sometimes these alternative interpretations on the surface seem to be mutually exclusive.

GLL, am I missing something in how I interpret Ellen White on the ten horns? Brother Houteff says they are anti-religious. Isn't Ellen White saying they are Protestantism?

In Rev. 17 we have two separate symbols --
The woman and her daughters representing the religious aspect (Both Papal and Protestant)

The beast with its seven heads and ten horns representing the political aspect -- civil powers through which the papacy and finally the Protestants will work.

They are united -- not in opposition -- at the beginning of the last conflict.

As quoted above --
"Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite...
"The religion of the papacy will be accepted by the rulers

So as pointed out in the video link in the last post
the Radical Muslims are right now trying to take over the major cities of the world and impose their law system on the citizens.

The latest news strengthens the interpretation that the king of the north (Christian's united under Pope) will come against them
United Religions against Terrorism

Former Israeli President Shimon Peres met with Pope Francis at the Vatican on Thursday to discuss a number of proposals on forming a united front against terrorism, including the idea to create a “United Religions” organization to combat religious extremism.

Pope to be Head of United Religions

"Pope Francis should head a new UN-style “Organisation of United Religions”, or “United Religions”, to “combat violence in God’s name”, said former Israeli president, Shimon Peres, on Thursday.....
because “perhaps for the first time in history, the Holy Father is a leader who’s respected, not just by a lot of people, but also by different religions and their representatives.”
“[He] is perhaps the only leader who is truly respected,” Peres said.
“People who shoot the most these days, nearly always say they are doing it in God’s name,” Peres added. “What is needed is an unquestionable moral authority that says in a strong voice ‘No, God does not want this and does not permit it’.”



It's shaping up --

I completely agree Dedication.

And we're seeing another significant step in the healing of the wound this last week.

The request of former Prime Minister Peres, a Jew, to make the Pope the world's religious leader is almost unbelievable even in modern times. It requires him to overlook the long and bloody historical antisemitism of the Papacy. Pope Francis was instrumental in bringing it about by reaching out to the Jews personally. There's a lesson in that for us. Sometimes the children of this world are wiser than the children of light.

Yes, I agree.

Then how would this puzzle(US creating the problem) fit into the same prophesy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMjXbuj7BPI&feature=youtu.be
This link may become removed from youtube as it was in the past.

Sabbath was a blessing, but it was so busy.

SS & Church till 1. Nursing home 3-4.

And the evening meeting 5-9. This meeting was one like I have never before seen in my 50-years as an SDA. Two different views clashed with titanic proportions until we bystanders knelt in the back of the room and just started to pray aloud. In reverence, the feuding parties bowed their heads and peace soon came over the meeting. If such as that can erupt among "the brethren" what will we see when Satan's agents are in our midst accusing the brethren?

mark the reason for this note:

This morning I saw a news report that stated that America is now defending a dam along the Euphrates River. That should it be breached, it will turn off the lights in Baghdad and flood numerous villages downstream. In this dry season with global climate change and all the loss of this dam could have prophetic significance.

Continuing to watch

Mark,

Your previous post was very insightful.

SDA's understand the 4 kingdoms in Daniel 7

That understanding goes back to the 4th century AD, Luther in the 1500's and Newton in the 1600's thus they cannot be the endtime meaning of Daniel's prophecy because they were understood before it was opened.







As I read it: the meaning that was understood before the book of Daniel was unsealed cannot be that meaning that was to be revealed when and after the book of Daniel was unsealed.



In the endtime when knowledge is increased it is known that sea-beasts (7:2-3) are not earth-kings (7:17)

Revelation 10 states that the sea and earth are different

Revelation 17:15 defines water as peoples...
Genesis 1:9 defines seas as gathered waters

Revelation 13 explains the earth beast as arising from America.

So the sea-beasts that sealed the authenticity of Daniel's prophecy are not the meaning that is to be explained after 1798 when Daniel is opened by Revelation.



It was not until the earth kings were in existence that they could be identified.

Thus Daniel 7 can be read: the lion president was followed by the bear president, who was followed by the leopard president that was followed by the indescribable president with the iron teeth and ten horns (cf Daniel 7:4-8).



America was diverse from all the sea-beasts that were before it; and America had ten horns.



The little horn is pope John-Paul II. The great words he spoke were Dies Domini and the three horns he plucked up with his charisma were Reagan (lion), Bush I (bear), Clinton (leopard). Reagan healed the papal wound when he sent Ambassador Wilson to Rome. Bush I healed the papal wound when he recognized John-Paul II as the head of all the churches.

Revelation 13 papal beast in the days of John-Paul II with the deadly wound healed demonstrating that he was completely bonded with Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton.

The 7-heads on the papal beast are Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I & II, and Benedict XVI.





The ten horns on the papal beast are the 10 Presidents from Truman to Clinton. The crowns indicate that they were in office while bonding with the papal beast.







When the scene changes in Rev 17; apostate protestantism with the mark of the beast on her forehead is riding the papal beast. the hour has ended 14 October 1929 to 14 February 2013. The last scenes will be rapid ones.

The three frogs of Rev 16:13 are soon to come. Satan will appear as John-Paul II (the dragon to deceive the world with Sunday sacredness and spiritualism) the beast is Pope Francis I and the false prophet is Benedict the retired.

It was reported the Vatican purchased a sizeable
portion of Jerusalem some years ago. A real estate transaction.
____________________

"Interesting GLL. I've read it through. I'll look at it more carefully now. In the mean time, is that totally the same way you see it?"

Yes it is. The revelations and explanations are quite clear and far-reaching.

"GLL, am I missing something in how I interpret Ellen White on the ten horns? Brother Houteff says they are anti-religious. Isn't Ellen White saying they are Protestantism?"

Here is further light on this subject.

DOES THE BEAST OF REVELATION 17 MAKE THE BEAST OF REVELATION 13 BABYLON?

Please explain: If the beast of Revelation 13:1 represents the papacy (Great Controversy 439:1), and if the woman of Revelation 17 is Babylon, then is not the beast of Revelation 13:1 also Babylon, and thus the S.D.A. church?

Turn to the illustration on p. 84 of Vol. 2 of "The Shepherd's Rod" and concentrate on the symbols as set forth therein. Note how perfectly each symbol defines itself. For an example, the Word of God explains that the horns on the non-descript beast are "ten kings that shall arise. (Dan. 7:24.)

That is, the horns did not have their sovereign power as yet. Therefore, they were crownless, but the horns on the leopard-like beast are crowned, showing that it represents the period when those kings (horns) received their kingdoms.

The non-descript beast in its first stage is a representation of the world during the reign of imperial Rome, and in its second stage depicts the papal despotism. Though this beast by "the little horn" represented the papacy, he also prophetically represented the nations of today.

Hence the beast, as a whole, is not the papacy, but the world with its civil and religious systems. This same condition exists with the leopard-like beast, for it also has 10 horns (the civil governments), and seven heads (the religious systems) -- the world.

The papal phase of the non-descript beast is represented by a symbol composed of two elements -- horn and head. The horn part depicts a civil power and the head part, a religious system, -- the papacy. This fact is again proven by the symbolism of the leopard-like beast.

The papacy is here described only by the head which was wounded, showing that the ten crowned horns and the remaining six heads, which had not been wounded, are not the papacy. Consequently, neither one of the beasts in their entirety are the papacy, for the papacy is only a part of them.

To prove who anti-typical Babylon is, and who is not, we shall draw an illustration by ancient Israel -- the church of God. They were called apart from the world, though in the world. This separation made two great divisions; namely, the church and the world.

Though ancient Israel was carried into Babylon they were, as a people, still Israelites. So it was with the early Christian church when she fell into the hands of the papacy --anti-typical Babylon. The church herself was not Babylon, but was under the subjection of Babylon, -- the pope as head of baptized paganism.

The same is true with the Protestant churches. They in reality are not Babylon and thus far only to a degree have they subjected themselves to Babylon. Says the "Great Controversy": "Not until...the union of the church with the world shall be fully accomplished throughout Christendom, will the fall of Babylon be complete.

The change is a progressive one, and the perfect fulfillment of Rev. 14:8 is yet future." (Great Controversy, p. 390.)

Therefore, a confederation of the Christian churches, united with civil governments (Great Controversy, p. 442) will form a likeness of the papacy; namely, church and state (horn-head). To construct such a combination is nothing less than to bring to life the spirit of intolerance and persecution that was manifested by the papacy before receiving "the wound." (Rev. 13:3.)

Thus the papal broken rock being cemented together by the two-horned beast (Rev. 13:14) is the formation of the image to the leopard-like beast in the period when prevailing against the saints of the Most High for 42 months (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 13:5), to which the Great Controversy, p. 445 is calling our attention.

All who allow themselves to be put in subjection to this forth-coming religio-political power, which is nothing less than Babylon the third; that is, ancient Babylon to whom God's people were placed in subjection for 70 years was the first, the wearing out of the saints by the papacy for "a times, and times, and the dividing of time" (Dan. 7:25) was the second; and the Image of the beast" above mentioned is the third, of which the scarlet colored beast of Rev. 17 is symbolical.

This is the only beast in the Revelation that is called Babylon, of which the S.D.A. church cannot be a part. (Testimonies to Ministers, 58, 59.) When Babylon the third comes into power, she is again to fall as predicted in the Revelation 18:2-24.

Each one of the beasts contain a special lesson. The non-descript, by the little horn, reveals the rise of the papacy. The leopard-like points to the Reformation by the wound on one of his heads. But in the second place, the leopard-like also discloses the fact, by the blasphemy over his heads, that the churches of today have rejected the Word of God -- the messages.

The healing of his wound brings in the world a similar religious condition to that before the beast was wounded; that is, treading down the truth as it was between the years of 508 A.D. and 538 A.D.; namely, casting the "truth to the ground" (Dan. 8:12), which fact brought about the establishment of the papacy and the commencement of the 1260 year period. See illustration in "The Shepherd's Rod," Vol. 2, p. 128.

As the great apostasy at that time prepared the way for setting up the papacy, so the healing of the wound in 1929 is preparatory for making an image to the beast, -- of the papacy. In order to protect the "very elect" -- the 144,000 -- from falling a prey to the image of the beast, God is now getting ready to cut off the wicked from among the righteous by the fulfillment of Ezekiel Nine. Thus God prevents His church from be coming involved in Babylon.

The two-horned beast represents the power that is to be instrumental in making the image, or likeness of the old papal system as above explained. By the scarlet colored beast is depicted a church union, confederated with the world.

The S.D.A. church is symbolized on the leopard-like beast to the extent that it reveals she, like the rest of the Christian churches, rejected the messages brought to her in 1888 and 1930. Some may attempt to question this interpretation of the symbolism, but they cannot deny the fact that the messages were not accepted. This being true proves the symbolism correct.

The name over the heads of the leopard-like is not "Babylon" but "blasphemy" instead. Every message comes by inspiration, for otherwise it would be no message from God, because the Bible says that "holy men of God (messengers) spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Pet. 1:21.)

Therefore, to reject such a message is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. (Matt. 12:31.) As all the churches rejected the messages sent directly to them, the name of blasphemy over the heads is a most logical symbol. Hence, there is no ground upon which one can correctly conclude that the symbolism of the leopard-like makes the church "Babylon."

The leopard-like is a composite beast of all the beasts before it. His mouth of a lion (Babylon), feet of a bear (Medo-Persia), body of a leopard (Grecia), the 10 horns (of the non-descript beast -- Rome), the wounded head (Catholicism), the unharmed ones (Protestantism), and the crowns (the kingdoms of today), again prove that the leopard-like beast is a symbol of the whole world.

The S.D.A. church (head) being represented on the beast (world) by a symbol of the same likeness (head) as the other six churches (heads) would make the S.D.A. church no more Babylon than it would make her Medo-Persia, or Grecia, or something else. In fact, it would have been illogical if all of the seven churches (candlesticks -- Rev, 1:20) were not represented by a symbol of the same likeness as that of the other six churches (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, and Philadelphia) for they (the early Christian and Protestant churches), too, were once God's chosen churches as the Laodicean is now.

The symbolism is not placing the church in Babylon, but in the world (Egypt), and the evidence is so plain, both by the symbols and by the church's condition, that it does not require an angel to recognize this fact.

Though the "Shepherd's Rod" plainly says that the church is in "Egypt," which point the opponents of the Rod are not trying to controvert, and while the Rod contends, through and through, that the church is not Babylon, they accuse it of saying it is! which in comparison means the same as to call black, white, and white, black.

Moreover, as the churches are symbolized in "The Revelation" by seven candlesticks (Rev. 1:20), the symbolism must include the early Christian church, later the Protestants, and at last the Seventh-day Adventists, or the Laodiceans.

These churches are not only symbolized by candlesticks of the same likeness, but are also all grouped together as are the seven heads on the leopard-like beast. If the assemblage of the candlesticks does not make the Laodiceans Babylon, why will the heads?
(Sym. Code, vol. 1 , no. 4, p.6-8)

It took me awhile to follow your connections, but as I believe dedication suggested, could some of these things overlap? That is, could protestantism be apostate churches and could civil leaders also be protestants? Could civil leaders of the world, influenced and manipulated and controlled and coerced by protestantism, be the ones to give their kingdom to the beast? And all of it motivated by the dragon?

If Babylon is false religion, what is protestantism?

GLL, the post doesn't clearly identify the ten horns of Rev 17's scarlet beast. Houteff has already said they are anti-religious which rules out Protestantism and contradicts Ellen White's view unless you apply them to after the close of probation when both Catholic and Protestant laymen see they've been mislead and devour the whore. That view has the flaw that it means the ten kings are both Catholics and Protestants but according to Ellen White they (the ten kings) are not both.

Kland, as you suggest, the ten kings have a political dimension as well as a religious one. That's the reason there are ten of them in my view - ten political entities - likely nations but possibly territories or something else. The Lamb-like beast is a coalition builder. It bids the world make the image and it succeeds by forming alliances.

I'm not sure I agree, but I could see how it could fit. But many Muslims deny the attitude expressed. So which ones are the "true" ones? But then, does it matter if you are a terrorist?


United Religions against Terrorism
Pope to be Head of United Religions

Why is it when I read it, I have to read it carefully or it comes across as United Nations? That is, is it my personal reading problem, or was it intentionally designed that way?

Will try and look a little more into the ten horns. I think he covers them in other writings as well. Have some comments about EGW but will do so when I find more.

Brother Mark, this is very encompassing and covers in detail much of what you are seeking I think. It's a study guide based on Houteff's interpretive work on Revelation studies. Note that the prediction is made near end of study, that in the upcoming gigantic world war (over Israel) the "communists" (ie. Russia and China) shall prove victorious yet by God's power, soonafter submit to the religious world wide confederacy--amazing stuff here!


THE SCARLET-COLORED BEAST--Revelation 17

INTRODUCTION:
This study describes what will take place when the Image of the beast system becomes international.—world-wide, and how it will fail.

Read:
Rev. 17:1-6

1.What Does A Woman Symbolize?—a church.
See Jer. 6:2; GC 381.

2.This Woman Is An Apostate Church
a. This woman is a prostitute (verse 5)
b. She is described as Babylon…abominations of the earth.

3.This Woman Is Not Specifically The Papacy
Read:Rev. 18:24

The woman is responsible for "ALL that were slain upon the earth."
The first person slain for their faith was ABEL. Thus the woman goes back to the time of Cain and Abel.
Read:Rev. 19:1-7

These verses show that the woman was destroyed around the time of the close of probation. But the Papacy will exist up to the 2nd coming of Christ. (2 Thes. 2:3,8; GC 321, 579).

4.Further Explanation:
a. Rev. 19: 1-7, mentions the four beasts, twenty-four elders, the throne, etc., IN THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY-TEMPLE. The fact that persons are still in the heavenly temple/sanctuary, is proof that the plagues have not yet fallen, and that probation is closing, and that the plagues have not been poured out. See Rev. 15:1, 7,8.

b. THE WOMAN WAS ALREADY DESTROYED WHILE PROBATION WAS CLOSING and the plagues had not yet been poured out. (See Rev. 19:2, 3).

c. The PAPACY will exist up the 2nd coming AND WILL BE DESTROYED BY CHRIST AT HIS COMING. (2 Thes. 2: 3, 8; GC 321, 356, 579).

Summary:
The woman therefore, could not specifically be the Papacy. The Papacy came to power in 538 A.D. -the new Testament era. The woman REPRESENTS A COUNTERFEIT RELIGIOUS SYSTEM OR IDEOLOGY which is older than the Papacy —A false belief system that goes back to the time of CAIN.

It was Cain who purported the first false doctrine (false sacrifice) and killed his brother Abel.
Obviously, the Papacy is a part of the woman. The woman takes on
different forms as she has progressed down through time. In other words, the woman initially represented Paganism, but was later on fused into Christianity during the dark ages—then she was known as the Papacy. This further indicates that Rome's doctrines are not new, but in fact went back to the very father of false religion on earth—Cain.

So the image of the beast system is not based on new doctrines or new ideas. It is built on a belief system that encompasses all religions—eastern and western.

5.Her Three Exploits Or Outstanding Periods.
a. Sitting on the waters (verse l)-during the dark ages—the time of the Papacy when this false system of worship controlled many nations—"waters."

b. Sitting on the seven heads (verse 9)-when the woman unites all the churches together-when Protestantism, Catholicism, and Spiritualism unite. (5T 451; GC 589).

c. Sitting on the Scarlet-colored beast (SCB)-(verse 3)—during the one-world government. Her sitting on the beast must be her last act.

6.What Is The Meaning Of The SCB?
Scarlet
Full of sin/cursed. God's people will be called out of it. Rev. 18:1-4; EW 33; John 10:16.

Names of blasphemy
Full of sin and corruption and hypocrisy.
Ten Horns
Civil powers—governments. Note that the horns have no crowns showing that the authority and control rests with the woman.

Seven --The religious bodies in existence at the time of the mark of the beast. Note that the SDA church would have already been purified so they are NOT included. (1 SC 17:6).

7.Revelation 17:8
Was --before the millennium
Is Not --During the millennium—when the wicked are dead in their graves-Rev. 20:1-3,5.
Yet Is --After the millennium when all the wicked dead are resurrected. Rev. 20:3, 7, 8.

Bottomless Pit
The earth in chaos and as a prison house for Satan, his angels and the wicked during the 1,000 years. Rev. 20:3, 5. GC 658.

Perdition -A destruction from which there is no resurrection.—after the millennium the wicked will be destroyed by fire from God.

They That Dwell On The Earth--
After all the wicked (whose names are not written in the book of Life) are resurrected, they will marvel ("wonder") when they see all the wicked from the beginning of time ("from the foundation of the world")

8.Revelation 17:9
Heads and mountains in Scripture represent religious bodies. 2
Therefore, the seven heads forecast the unification of the churches (see the woman's three exploits in this outline).

9.Revelation 17:10
Five Fallen --Five kingdoms have fallen—past: (1) Adamic kingdom (2) Babylon (3) Media-Persia (4) Grecia (5) Rome.

One Is -Our present world—same as the ten toes. This period covers the Leopard-like Beast (LLB), Two-horned Beast (THB), and the Scarlet-colored Beast (SCB).

Not Yet Come --The wicked (world) after the millennium.

Continue a Short Space --The 100 years after the millennium just before the wicked are destroyed. Isa. 65:20; Rev. 20: 3. (same as the little season).

10.Revelation 17:11
Was --Before the millennium.

Is Not --During the millennium

He Is The Eighth --He is the eighth beast—all the beast from Daniel 7 and Revelation:
(1) Lion
(2) Bear
(3) Leopard
(4) Non-descript beast
(5) Leopard-like beast
(6) Two-horned beast
(7) Scarlet-colored beast [SCB] BEFORE the millennium
(8) SCB AFTER the millennium.

Is Of The Seven --The SCB—all the wicked AFTER the millennium, is a composite of all the previous beasts-kingdoms. He has all the characteristics of all the former beasts.

Goes Into Perdition --The SCB AFTER millennium (the eighth beast), represents all the wicked who are cast into a lake of fire and destroyed. (Rev. 20: 8-10).

11.What Do The Ten Horns Of The SCB Represent?
Civil Powers

12.Revelation 17:12,13
Horns represent civil or Political entities. These horns:
a. Are kings but have not yet received there kingdom.
b. They have the authority as kings for one hour.
c. They have one mind—they are unified in their thinking and planning.
d. Instead of taking the rulership, they give it away for the one hour.
e. They give their kingdom (rulership) away because God put it in their heart to do it (Rev. 17:17).
f. The ONE HOUR is the same as the 11th to 12th hour (Matt. 20:6,7)-the loud cry period.

13.What Civil Powers Do The Horns Represent?
Communist or Communist-like powers

a. Only Communists profess NO religion—They despise it. The ten horns hated and destroyed the woman (religion). (Rev. 17:16)

b. REV. 18: 9-11. The kings in this passage are crying because the woman is destroyed. These kings must be DEMOCRATIC-THEY LOVE RELIGION (the woman). They must also be Capitalists because they are "merchants" (verses 11,12). Therefore, these kings in Rev. 18:9, cannot be the same as the ones who destroyed her in REV. 17:16.

There are TWO TYPES OF KINGS-those that LOVE the woman [democratic/capitalists] and those that HATE her [Communist/Communist-like].

Summary:
This reveals that Communism will appear to dominate the world's political seat, but instead will give up their right to rule the world, by giving their power to the Mark of the beast system (the SCB) which is controlled by the Beast (666) and the False Prophet through the woman (the false religious system or beliefs). Thus, this religious-political system will not be purely Communist or Democratic, but Ecclesiastical. It will unite Catholicism, apostate Protestantism, and Spiritualism together under a so-called NEW WORLD ORDER.

Note:
The democratic nations (ie USA) will see victory in surrendering their power to the church (the woman) because it will be denied them in WAR. (12 Tr 54; 2TG 41:18). Therefore, the Communist will gain the upper hand politically because the USA and the other nations - members of western society will fall in a gigantic war. But God will put it in the hearts of the Communists to surrender their rulership to the image of the beast. God does this so that the Gospel can gather the Great Multitude. (Rev. 17:18).

14.Revelation 17:14
These kings are to be anti-religious and therefore anti-Christian. They shall eventually make war with the Lord and with His called, chosen, and faithful ones, but "the lamb shall overcome" them.

15.Revelation 17:15
Waters represent people.

16.Revelation 17:16,17,18
After the gospel is completed, the Communist powers will destroy the New World Order-the Mark of the beast system. This will take place around the close of probation. (Rev. 18:1-7). Then the plagues will fall. So Babylon's rule will be short-lived. At that point the GM would have already been gathered.

Further Study
2 SR 111-125,148-162
2 TG 18,36
12 Tr 30 -41, 53 -57.

Education Department
Davidic Levitical Institute
Mt. Carmel Center
Mountain Dale, New York 12763

I noticed a comment from you GLL earlier on this thread that the Shepard's Rod believe or promote the 1888 message. Would you mind opening a thread on that if that's the case? How do you/they see that critical message? What is their understanding of it?

Regarding equating the ten kings with communism, I used to do that myself until I noticed that Ellen White says they represent Protestantism. Houteff, you, the Shepard's Rod and I were all wrong.

Do you know where that was said? I tried looking just now and this page from Maranatha was all I could find in which the ten horns are mentioned in connection with any interpretation of them. I don't know where they got that from because there's no references to any of Ellen White's writings.

The wording on that page is odd, too. When they say-
"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath."
are they equating the ten horns with the lamb like beast? That doesn't seem right.

The King of the North in the last verses of Daniel eleven represents the so called Christian Nations which will unite under the pope to combat terrorism. Yes, this represents especially the civil leaders, as well as the people.

The term "United Religions" is meant to evoke thoughts of the United Nations.

Years ago I did a study on comparing some of "Marian" predictions (the enemies strategy) with EGW's interpretations.

EGW says God's people will be accused of the most vile crimes
See GC88 591

How is this to take place?
Just consider a Unity of Religions working to "restore peace" on the earth and how they would consider stubborn believers who refuse to join their program.


--God's people will be accused of denying God because they do not recognize the papal authority as the shepherd of spiritual life for the world.

--God's people will be accused of rejecting God's law, because they reject the changed papal version of the law.

--God's people will be accused of supporting terriosm because they cannot join the religious union.


--God's people will be accused of hedonism because they believe that ultimately every person is personally responsible for their commitment and obedience to God.

--God's people will be accused of siding with what the religious union calls anti-Christ, as well as accused with siding with atheism and any other "evil" that the "religious union" opposes.

The king of the North will appear to be quite successful at first.
The king of the South-- radical Muslims will be overcome, most of the rest will fall in line and become part of the "union of religions". This is outlined in Daniel 11: 40-45.

"Mary" and the supernatural manifestations that represent her will be a unifying element. Millions of Catholics travel to shrines to pray before her image. But what is not commonly known is that Muslims also hold her in high regard
See Mary Queen of All

Jerusalem will be a great center of this "unity of religions" under the papal leadership.



But it won't work -- because God's blessing isn't in it.
Because they are actually fighting against God and His law and government, even though it was looking very much like they were fighting for God. Rather than bringing in peace, the world plunges into trouble more than ever before.

God will deliver His people.
Yes, there will be people from every tribe and nation who "escape" the great delusion and are true to God.

And when those leaders who accepted the delusion realize what they accepted, they will turn "Babylon".

That's interesting. I didn't know this, but picked up on it. Guess they marketed the choice of name well!



I wonder if they see the "Queen of All" reminding them of this:

Jer 7:18,19 "The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger." Do they provoke Me to anger?" says the LORD. "Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?"

The Rev 17 beast has seven heads that are seven kings and seven mountains - the kings are political entities or nations, the mountains are religious entities. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that we'll have two parallel organizations - A UN of Nations and a UN of religions united at the top by a moral authority figure of global stature. In the UN, the Security Counsel is the final authority in terms of global management of peace and war. How many nations with veto power comprise the Security Counsel of the UN? Five at the moment but Germany and Japan are front running candidates for the same powers as the original five. How many religions will comprise the parallel Security Counsel of the UN of religions?

(This is just an observation to store in the back of your memory for future reference. I don't mean it as a topic for debate but feel free to comment.)

Revelation 17 expands and explains Revelation 13.

What does the prophecy say?

"one of his heads as it were wounded to death" (13:3)

Spirit of prophecy explains that a head on the beast in Rev 13 is a pope.

"We looked upon the bust of Pius VI. The marble statue beneath the bust contained the heart of the pope. This is the pope specified in prophecy" {5MR 318.1}

Revelation 17 clearly states that it is a prophecy regarding "kings"

"there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." (17:10).

With prophecy being so clear, it is baffling to see so many attempt to take that which is plain and clear and try to change it into something that it is not. This is not of God. And such un-biblical speculation can only lead away from truth rather than to truth.

If the seven heads are seven mountains, religious organizations, one that is wounded to death is Rome. Taking the heads as individual Popes doesn't harmonize as well with the inspired statements in scripture and the SOP that mountains are religions and kings equate with kingdoms as in Daniel's prophecies. The beasts in Daniel point to kingdoms rather than individual kings so we'd need clear evidence that there is a different rule in Rev 13 and 17.

I haven't been following here, but this post caught my eye. What would be the seven religions? Something like this?

Catholicism
Judaism
Islam
Apostate Protestantism
Buddhism
Atheism
God's True Remnant

Of course, there are other religions out there...but this seems to catch the major ones.

I've never heard of the mountains representing different religious entities before. To me, they always represented leaders or powers.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hinduism is a big one. I'm not sure about atheism although it is a religion.

One of the reasons for viewing the mountain aspect as religions is that the beast combines church and state. If the heads are kings or kingdoms the mountains are something else. Mt. Zion, Mt Olympus and many pagan religions employed mountains or high places (the pyramids) as places of worship.

Again His Child, if you aren't going to read it correctly, you just as well say The marble statue is the pope specified in prophecy!

Are you saying the marble statue is going to live again with it's heart?

Mark,
Symbolism can have different meaning in different context. Sister White stated that the heads were popes, so with such a definite explanation of the meaning, why would we need to focus on "mountains" which are less understood.

In this passage Mountain is a symbol---Re 8:8 "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;"

Would you propose that Re 8:8 is referring to a nation or a political power? I think not. Nor would I think it is a king.

But a word study of "mountain" explains its meaning.

3735 ὄρος oros or’-os

probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or "rear," perhaps akin to 142, cf 3733); n n; TDNT-5:475,732; { See TDNT 566 }

Thus the symbol mountain is to rise or rear
To be elevated /\ and to come down \/

mountain is AKIN to #142
which is defined:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up
1a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
1b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
3a) to move from its place
3b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
3c) to remove
3d) to carry off, carry away with one

The popes arose to power
and they received the deadly wound - their power was removed

There is no reason to take a specific reference to a king and turn it into a kingdom. In some instances that may be appropriate, but it is not necessary in every instance of prophecy and is adding to Revelation that which is not commanded in the context.

Not really. She said, "This is the pope specified in prophecy, which received the deadly wound". Nothing about heads.


Let's try a different approach.

Suppose that Pius VI was the fifth head. Who would be the first pope and how does that fit with the rising of the beast (assuming the beast is the papacy which contains the heads) from the sea?

A different approach won't change the facts.

Pius VI was not the 5th head, he was the head that received the deadly wound.

When Pius VI received the deadly wound: "The infliction of the deadly wound points to the downfall of the papacy in 1798."{DD 27.1}

EGW's statements are clear. When a specific pope received the deadly wound, the papacy (beast) received the wound.

And the prophecy is clear: "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast" Revelation 13:3

The wound was inflicted on one of the heads, i.e., the pope who heads the papacy. The prophetic chain is clear. But not all are to understand. Yet rightly dividing the word of truth is a salvation issue and will have eternal consequences.

Truth is not a matter of one's own opinion. God will never ask you what His child Henry believed, but "what do you believe?" And your answer will be a thus saith the LORD as impressed on your heart by the holy Spirit or your own opinion.

His child, saying that I'm going to be lost because I refuse to believe your opinion is not productive.


You have compared Rev 13 with Rev 17.

You have said the popes are heads.

You have said the head who received the deadly wound is pope Pius VI.


Rev 13 says the beast has 7 heads.
One head receives the deadly wound.

Question: Which of the 7 do you say received the deadly wound?

kland,

You add greatly to what I did say.



That is truth



This is a conclusion that alters the facts.

I did show from the Scripture, Revelation 13 (which I did not write) that it states that one of the beast's "heads" received a deadly wound.

I did show from the Spirit of Prophecy (which I did not write) that it states that pope Pius VI who fulfilled the prophecy was the one who received a deadly wound.



Though I showed you the link between the prophet John and the explanation from the Servant of the Lord, Ellen White, you persist in making it appear as though it is something I manufactured.

By explaining away such a simple thread in prophetic truth you set aside a thus saith the Lord by making it appear as though it were something that I invented rather than being the result of sound Bible study in conjunction with the Spirit of Prophecy.

If you honestly cannot see it, the Holy Spirit is able to bring you to understanding that which is truth.



When the papacy finished its 1260-years that counterfeited Christ's 3.5-years of Ministry Pope Pius (VI) received the deadly wound. Thus the papacy also counterfeited Christ's Friday death, Sabbath rest in the grave and Sunday resurrection.

In 1798, Pius was taken captive and died in his captivity (counterfeiting Friday). In 1799, there was no pope (counterfeiting Sabbath). And in 1800, a new pope was elected (counterfeiting the Sunday resurrection).

Notice that the pope elected in 1800 took the name PIUS which was the same name as the pope that received the deadly wound.

Likewise when the beast in Revelation 13 had its deadly wound healed by Mussolini, he signed the Lateran Treaty with the Vatican while Pope PIUS (XI) was ruling.

Thus the head that was wounded and healed was the head named PIUS though it was not the same man.

Revelation 13:3 "And <2532> I saw <1492> (5627) one <3391> of his <846> heads <2776> as it were <5613> wounded <4969> (5772) to <1519> death <2288>; and <2532> his <846> deadly <2288> wound <4127> was healed <2323> (5681): and <2532> all <3650> the world <1093> wondered <2296> (5681) (5625) <2296> (5656) after <3694> <1722> the beast <2342>."

3391 &#956;&#953;&#769;&#945; mia mee’-ah

irregular feminine of 1520; adj; { See TDNT 492&#8201;}

AV-one 62, first 8, a certain 4, a 3, the other 1, agree + 4160 + 1106 1; 79

1) only one, someone

Pope PIUS who had been the pope/king of the papal church received a deadly wound that was in place until Pope PIUS received the healing of the deadly wound.

And that wound remained healed from 1929 through 2013: the prophetic hour specified in the prophecy of Revelation 17. During that hour the papacy had only one pope at a time. Now that the hour is up, there are two living popes and soon to be a third according to Revelation 16 (Revelation repeats and expands and explains).

And as Revelation supplements the book of Daniel: when Babylon fell it had 2 kings: Nabonidus and Belshazzar. Then in Babylon's final moments, it had a third ruler added: Daniel. The papacy (spiritual Babylon is in its final moments, Satan impersonating John-Paul II (one of the 7 that is to be the 8th) will appear. Then there will be John-Paul II (the dragon) Pope Francis I (the beast) & Pope Benedict (the false prophet)

I hope that helps

Does it alter it? You said:

Not true now?

kland,

You add greatly to what I did say.

I did not understand. Are you retracting the statement or standing behind it?

Very interesting question.

As best as I can tell, it seems to depend on when, or what time in history, you look at a map of Europe! Do we look at the map of Europe after the fall of Medo-Persia and the death of Alexander the Great?!? Or do we look at the map at about the eighth century AD?!?

The map looks differently at different times in history, so at what time in history do we look at this map? I still believe it is after the death of Alexander.

A map? Or is it what the North and South represents?

Exactly kland.

The map is connected to understanding what is meant by the king of the north and the king of the south.

His child wrote; "And that wound remained healed from 1929 through 2013: the prophetic hour specified in the prophecy of Revelation 17. During that hour the papacy had only one pope at a time. Now that the hour is up, there are two living popes and soon to be a third according to Revelation 16 (Revelation repeats and expands and explains).

And as Revelation supplements the book of Daniel: when Babylon fell it had 2 kings: Nabonidus and Belshazzar. Then in Babylon's final moments, it had a third ruler added: Daniel. The papacy (spiritual Babylon is in its final moments, Satan impersonating John-Paul II (one of the 7 that is to be the 8th) will appear. Then there will be John-Paul II (the dragon) Pope Francis I (the beast) & Pope Benedict (the false prophet)

I hope that helps"

I am one who has never accepted the "seven popes" idea for Revelation 17. I have always been able to find something wrong with every version I have heard. So, as I read this version here, how is there to be another pope when we are already on number 8? Also, the eighth wasn't anything like the seven in that he is a Jesuit and ruling jointly with pope #7?

As I see it, this whole "seven popes" idea has completely shattered apart. Oh, and John Paul II is still going to be resurrected? Isn't it too late for that?

His child wrote; "I did show from the Scripture, Revelation 13 (which I did not write) that it states that one of the beast's "heads" received a deadly wound.

I did show from the Spirit of Prophecy (which I did not write) that it states that pope Pius VI who fulfilled the prophecy was the one who received a deadly wound."

That is an excellent point to show from 5MR 318.1, but I believe you misinterpret the point made by that statement. The beast power is the Papacy, that we know is a long line of Popes. So, the beast power of the papacy received the deadly wound through Pope Pius VI. I truly believe this is a much better understanding of 5MR 318.1.

Historically, we know Napoleon wanted to end the papacy altogether. He wasn't able to and another pope was eventually chosen. But, we need to remember that this wound was to kill the papacy as a whole and not just Pope Pius VI.

There are a lot of ideas about the seven "heads" on the three beastly creatures of in Revelation 12-13 -17.

However, tne point most Adventists agree on is that one of those heads on the Rev. 13 beast was wounded to death in 1798, and will be healed with the whole world (almost) paying homage to it.

The deadly wound did not destroy the Papacy as leader of the Catholic Church itself. What it destroyed was the "beast" aspect. The beast died -- the papal church didn't.

A beast represents a political power. The papacy lost it's political power (a system of combined religion with civil power to enforce their religion) in 1798 thanks to Napoleon and his new codes of laws.
Popes had been imprisoned and died in exile before, but 1798 was different because at that time the papal office didn't just replace a pope, but it lost its political power to use civil power to enforce their religion.

The wound will be completely healed and the beast revived when a system is again restored where they use state power to enforce religion.

I agree with what you said dedication, I just don't believe this has anything to do with seven popes from 1929.

The Adventist pioneers did not believe that the KOTN was the papacy. U. Smith read Daniel 11 as a literal prophesy. Thus the KOTN would occupy the territory of the North which was _________.

What guarantee do we have that certain Seventh-day Adventist will be paying homage to it when so many claiming to be Adventists will not let go of teachings verifying the power of the beast and diverting our attention away from the Sanctuary Service?

It is so subtle that many do not notice it.

Here's a brief insight that will help those who are searching.

Rev 12 identifies satan as the dragon beast.

Six of its heads are the nations: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and pagan Rome.

Egypt began to war against Christ by decreeing death to all Hebrew boys.

Those nations warred against the Man-child until pagan Rome crucified Christ.

From the time of pharaoh's death decree until Christ's birth it was 1260-years.

When the risen Savior went back to heaven, the 7th head (papal Rome) also warred against the church for 1260-years.

Revelation 13 depicts (expands and enlarges) the papal Roman head as a 7 headed beast.

In one view it is the papal beast with its names named by the popes as they ascended to the papal throne:
1)Pius was the wounded head that was healed (Pius VI & Pius XI)
2) John
3) Paul
4) John-Paul
5) Benedict
6) Francis
7) one that is yet to be named

In a secondary sense Revelation 13 identifies the healed popes:
1)Pius XI
2)Pius XII
3)John XXIII
4)Paul VI
5) John-Paul I
6) John-Paul II (who received Satan's seat, authority, etc.)
7) Benedict XVI (the last post 1929 solo pope)

Thus during Benedict's reign the papal beast yielded its world
sovereignty to the earth-beast (America-the last power to war against God's people) that has two horns: Bush II and Obama

Revelation 17 then explains that 5 are fallen:
1)Pius XI
2)Pius XII
3)John XXIII
4)Paul VI
5) John-Paul I

one is
6) John-Paul II (who received Satan's seat, authority, etc.)

one is to come for a short space (less than 7-years [7 is the # of completeness])
7) Benedict XVI (the last post 1929 solo pope)

Babylonian tradition assigns the reign of a king from New Year's Day to the completion of the year.

On the Gregorian Calendar, Babylonian NYD would be March 29

John-Paul II died 4/2/05
since he was pope on BNYD, his final year would end 3/28/06

Benedict XVI's accession was John-Paul II's final year
Benedict XVI began his first year according to Babylonian tradition on 3/29/06 (his year 1)
His year 1 ended 3/28/07
His year 2 ended 3/28/08
His year 3 ended 3/28/09
His year 4 ended 3/28/10
His year 5 ended 3/28/11
His year 6 ended 3/28/12
His year 7th would have ended 3/28/13

But Revelation 17 states that he is allotted a "short space"
In order to have it be a short space, he had to leave office before 3/28/13.
And that he did. He left office on 2/28/13
which was 30-days before the number of completion

But pope Francis does not fit Revelation 17
because he is not a solo post 1929 pope
and he is not one of the 7 that is to be the 8th.

Satan is the beast of Rev 12, and he give's his power to JP-II
Satan is the 8th that is of the 7
Thus Satan (the beast) will appear as JP-II (the head that was wounded and healed)

Then the prophecy will be fulfilled about the dragon (Satan as JP-II), the beast (Francis I) & the false prophet (Benedict)

They will stir up the king of the earth (Obama)
and kings of the world (all the other world rulers)

Prophecy and history have met
the last events will be rapid ones
BUT most of the brethren (and sisters) are in a state of unbelief

Alchemy

Revelation 17 is referring to the 7 post-1929 popes Pius XI - Benedict XVI. Francis I is explained in Rev 16. Satan as JP-II will be the eighth that is of the 7.
From your perspective in the box, you can only see so much.

Satan is the beast.
In Rev 12 the 7 heads of the beast were the nations & the papacy that Satan used to accomplish his will.

In Rev 13 the papal beast is Satan's (spiritual agent) that takes on secular authority.

Pope John-Paul II was the final fulfillment of Rev 13 in that he personally received a deadly wound (1981), he lived exactly 42-months after 9/11/01, and he toppled communism without firing a shot, etc.

When Satan as the dragon beast appears as John-Paul II, it will be to deceive the world with 1) Sunday sacredness and 2) the state of the dead: the last two great errors. WE know that JP-II is not going to be resurrected But when he says something akin to touch me feel me and isn't my body in the Vatican crypt? That deception will be overwhelming for the world and many of the nominal Adventists that do not have a clue as to the endtime meaning of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation that are explaining themselves by their fulfillment.

I agree with your statement.
It's been about 20 years now since I started reading various posters posting on various forums what they thought the seven heads represented -- those who seek to name each head after the last popes just keep revising and revising again.



Adventist pioneers taught the seven heads on Rev. 13 beast were seven progressive forms of the ancient Roman Government -- but that fell into disuse since they already had the sixth head ruling in John's day and the seventh head "that was to rule for a short time" (papal Rome) was on the scene longer than all six of the former heads put together -- it just didn't really fit.

However -- even though I don't agree with their allocations, -- YET the principle still seems the most plausible -- the heads representing "forms of government" of the beast.

Pioneer Adventists consistently over hundreds of times called the seven headed beast of Rev. 13 the "papal beast".
Now it makes sense that a beast's heads should represent the beast.
So following their premise and remembering this is the PAPAL BEAST, (not pagan Rome beast) wouldn't the heads represent seven forms of papal government?

Do the list of popes easily fall into SEVEN categories?

1. 312-538 Roman Popes elevated to authority by "Christian emperors" but under emperors rule.

2. 538 - 800 Popes with the support of the Merovingian (Franks) kings, followed by early Carolingian kings (also Franks)-- (remember the donation of Pepin to the papacy)

3. 800 - 1059 Popes and the first phase of the Holy Roman Empire -- Pope Leo III crowns Charlemagne as emperor and launches the concept of the new Holy Roman Empire which will play an important role throughout the Middle Ages. The empire seemed to be at its end by 924.
The Holy Roman Empire was revived when Otto was crowned Emperor by Pope John XII. This revival of the Empire posed a threat to the papacy as several popes were deposed and others elected by the emperor -- the battle for absolute control is under way.

4. 1059- 1370 Monarchical Papacy
1059 the College of Cardinals is established. Pope Gregory seizes political control by decreeing, in 1075, that no lay ruler may make ecclesiastical appointments. Powerful bishops and abbots are henceforth to be pope's men rather than emperor's men. Pope Innocent III declared that kings rightly reigned, in his view, only if they devoutly served the pope as Christ's vicar. The papacy was at its height of power.

5. 1370 - 1798 Wycliffe, the first of the great reformers, followed by others, especially Martin Luther in the early 1500's. The Renaissance and dissatisfaction of the lower class all threatened the papacy. These years also saw the emergence of the counter reformation and fierce persecution to suppress the "revolts" from supreme papal authority. Ending in the papacy loosing it's political control over religion.

6. 1798 - (?) Papacy operating more as leader of the Catholic church, and a "voice of conscience" to the world, without it's former ability to use political means to enforce it's mandates. (The beast is wounded, there is some dispute as to whether the wound is already healed or still in healing stage in present day)

7. Healing complete - time of the plagues The healed papacy -- again exercising full supremacy-- using civil power to enforce it's mandates.

Adventist pioneer James White believed the king of the north was the papacy.
We are facing a confrontation between the Christian world (lead by the papacy) and the Muslims (king of the south) that will catapult the world into the last crises.

Pope appeals for Christian unity because the persecutor (radical Muslims) sees them as one, and Christians need to unite (with the pope as leader)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s0dF12UiWg

His child wrote;

"But Revelation 17 states that he is allotted a "short space"
In order to have it be a short space, he had to leave office before 3/28/13.
And that he did. He left office on 2/28/13
which was 30-days before the number of completion"

I don't know if this is important or not, but 2/28/13 to 3/28/13 is less than 30 days.

His child wrote;

"Alchemy

Revelation 17 is referring to the 7 post-1929 popes Pius XI - Benedict XVI. Francis I is explained in Rev 16. Satan as JP-II will be the eighth that is of the 7.
From your perspective in the box, you can only see so much.

Satan is the beast.
In Rev 12 the 7 heads of the beast were the nations & the papacy that Satan used to accomplish his will.

In Rev 13 the papal beast is Satan's (spiritual agent) that takes on secular authority."

Blessings His child,

Satan is the dragon, not the beast. I do agree with you that the papal beast is Satan's agent though.

I don't believe there is anything much to see in this seven popes idea.

Aahhh...

I think I see what you are saying dedication. I have never looked at it that way. Later in Revelation 17 the angel tells John that the seven heads are seven mountains, which I believe were seven kingdoms starting with Babylon and coming down to the 8th being the healed papacy who was one of the seven.

I will pray about what you presented here today dedication.

The Adventist pioneers view Daniel 11 as a Literal prophesy, reflecting literal events. The Adventist pioneers also taught that the King of the North was "Turkey": AT Jones, EJ Waggoner, SK Haskell, U. Smith.

Is there any group today operating in the territory that the King of the North occupies which might fulfill the prophesies of Daniel 11:40-45? Yep. Is the world rushing to help them or not? What happens in Daniel 12:1? The King of the North is gone, but what it now about to happen? If the King of the North was the papacy, it just does not fit a literal interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45 and Daniel 12 for the papacy goes beyond Daniel 11:45, the king of the North does not. So far this group has not fulfilled Daniel 11:45. He has not planted the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. But this event was stated by the pioneers to be a national guidepost to the world, that men may know what is going on in the sanctuary above.

Even if it were only one day short of 7-years, it would have been a short space, short of the number of completeness.

As I continue to study, I learn more as evidenced by my pope Benedict tweets. When I only partially understood the popes identified in Revelation 17, I knew that Benedict had to leave by the spring of 2013. Note the progression of my Pope Benedict Tweets (they are in twitters archives proving that they were on the record before it happened.)

Pope Benedict XVI has but a very short time left (9/3/11)

#Pope Benedict XVI marks his last year with a Latin America trip that includes a visit to #Cuba (23 March 2012)

With Benedict XVI in his last year,
Who’s going to be the new pope? … (3 April 2012)

Is Pope Benedict going to be pope in 2013? (29 April 2012)

Months ago I tweeted that pope Benedict XVI is a short timer. Now Vatican power play is news! Y u b last 2 know? (28 May 2012)

If Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, his time ends before May 2013 (7 July 2012)

Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, because his ascension year was John-Paul II’s last year. Will Benedict XVI’s 7th year B his last (8 August 2012)

[that post was poorly written. my dyslexia kicked in. but the gist is right]

Pope #Benedict XVI As I read Daniel’s prophecy, 7’s number of completeness. His ascension year (zero) 2005. He might last till spring 2013? (30 September 2012)

Pope Benedict announced this morning (Monday February 11, 2013) that he is resigning as of 28 February 2013.

Now I understand why he left on 2/28/13

While presenting a revival prophecy seminar 2/14/13, I was able to declare that prophecy had met history on this very day.

I am sorry I was not clear on this point. You might try rereading what I wrote.

Those who do not understand Pope Benedict XVI in endtime prophecy will not understand endtime prophecy sufficiently to have it benefit them as God would have them be benefited by it.

I explained it before it happened. But who believes?
After the fact when I was shown to be correct as far as my understanding went, who believed?

Now this is my testimony.

When the Supreme Court decides for gay marriage in June, it will have declared the USA independent from God.

Then Iran will attack the US fleet in the Gulf.

And President Obama will wage war against the "covenant" and the national Sunday Law will not be far behind.

The Adventist pioneers did not limit their thoughts to one view. As events transpired that seemed to fit prophecy their views matured. But as endtime events explain Daniel and Revelation, we should not look to the past but to the present light that God has so graciously given us.

By the way William Miller linked the kings of the north and south to Great Britain and France. And prophecy fulfilled has confirmed that view.

Which pioneers?

Really?

APL wrote;

"Is there any group today operating in the territory that the King of the North occupies which might fulfill the prophesies of Daniel 11:40-45?" (emphasis mine)

This brings me back to my thinking about a map! When are we supposed to consider this location? How do we distinguish from the north and south?

This thread seems to be all over the place on this point.

Daniel 11 has been interpreted by the Adventist Pioneers as a literal prophesy.

Here is an excerpt from AT Jones - one of the most noted (and forgotten?) church Historians in his book The Marshaling of the Nations:

Now this eleventh chapter of Daniel is a sketch of the history from the beginning of the reign of Darius the Mede until the time of the setting up of the kingdom of God, as is shown by the words of the last verses of the eleventh chapter and the first few verses of the twelfth. ... {1900 ATJ, MON 28.3}

So, when we come to the fortieth verse of the eleventh of Daniel, we are not reading of affairs away back in the days of the empire of Greece, nor of the affairs of Rome, but of affairs down here at "the time of the end," as mentioned in the thirty-fifth verse. Other verses also show the same thing. And bear in mind that the king of the South is always in Egypt, and the king of the North is always the power occupying the territory of which Constantinople is the center. And all the world knows that since 1453 A. D., the territory of which Constantinople is the center, has been held and ruled by the Turks. Then the king of the North at the time of the end is the Turkish dominion. {1900 ATJ, MON 30.3}
Now, the last verse of the eleventh chapter of Daniel, speaking of the king of the North, the power controlling the territory of which Constantinople is the center, says, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {1900 ATJ, MON 31.1}

It was looking at a map that helped convinced me that Roman Christianity is the king of the North and Muslims are the king of the south.

The conflict in Daniel always has to do in relationship with God's professed people.
After the cross those people are not "old Jerusalem" but Christianity.

All through the 1260 years two religions were struggling against each other --Christianity and Muslims.
Christianity held territories north of the Mediterranean and Muslims South of the Mediterranean.
During the crusades they were even battling over possession of Jerusalem.
Though more importantly it was the true believers that ended up being in the middle.

Both rose to power about the same time (538 and 600)-- the Roman church a few years earlier, and both suffered a serious down swing in political strength about the same time ( 1798, 1840)-- and both are climbing to world wide power now in our present day

I picked up on this to some degree in your thread "The Counterfeit Kingdom". And even though I understand your points, I have a difficult time straying away from a map after Alexander the Great.

Also, in Joshua 15:4, we are told that Egypt is the southern border of Israel. So, I agree with you that this determination is made in relation to God's people. And we know from Galatians 4:21-31 that earthly Israel and Jerusalem didn't mean anything when Islam came on the scene.

Then again, there are some who believe the Papacy created the Islamic religion!?!

I know Egypt is Arab, or Islam these days. But, that wasn't always true. Egypt existed long before there was an Ishmaelite. So, I believe the Arab, or Ishmaelite nations came on the scene too late.

And just one more point, Egypt was where God sent His people with Joseph leading the way. God had His Son come out of Egypt. Spiritual Egypt is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. I just find Egypt more relevant in God's eyes that Islam.

You make a compelling case and I always look forward to reading what you have to say dedication, but we are going to disagree on this one.

You don't believe that's a possibility? They helped bring down USSR. Seems well within their line. Although, sometimes things don't go completely as planned.

A look at the map shows that today, Islam holds the land immediately North of Israel: Lebanon, Syria, Turkey. As AT Jones wrote: Now, the last verse of the eleventh chapter of Daniel, speaking of the king of the North, the power controlling the territory of which Constantinople is the center, says, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {1900 ATJ, MON 31.1} Is that Islam or Christian?

The papacy wasn't around during Alexander's empire either.
Does that mean Daniel's prophecies don't include the papacy?

Daniel 2,7,8 all move from Alexanders Grecian empire on to the Roman Empire and 7, 8 leads us on to the Roman Papal dominion.
So why do we deviate from this set pattern in Daniel 11?

Rome is the king of the North in verses 22 when the Prince of the Covenant is killed.
Vs 23 takes us to the Christians making a league with the Roman Empire which leads into the papal dominion.

The Muslims took control of all the southern regions INCLUDING Egypt beginning in 639 AD.
Prior to this the eastern Roman empire controlled Egypt. Egypt was under Roman control from 30 BC till 639 AD.

The Muslims have controlled Egypt ever since, with just a few interludes when foreigners took control for short spells.
Napoleon occupied Egypt for a mere three years 1798-1801.
The United Kingdom occupied Egypt in 1882 and had considerable influence for about 60 years (mainly protecting their rights to the Suez Canal). Yet these occupations didn't change the cultural and religious nature of the population which was largely Arab Muslim.

So basically Egypt is Muslim and has been for some 1380 years.
Egypt, was never really atheistic, they just didn't believe in the true God Who actually works to deliver His people, yet the people were very devoted to their own gods -- pagan religion.

Now - the Moslem god -- is this Allah the God of the Bible, or is Allah the moon god of ancient pagan Arabia? A god that must be pacified, not one that sends his Son to deliver His people. Why do Moslem mosques have crescent moons on their "steeples"? Why do they still worship at the "black stone" which was venerated in pre-Islamic pagan times? Why is the crescent moon found on the flags of Islamic nations?

And what is spiritual Egypt?
Isn't spiritual Egypt that spirituality that rejects the God that delivers -- that rejects Jesus as the Son of God by whom alone we find salvation? Spiritual Egypt is still spiritual -- paganism?

Islam controls vast territories in the south -- all along the African lands south of the Mediterranean -- including Egypt.

Where is Constantinople mentioned as the "seat" of the king of the north in Biblical prophecy? Nowhere -- but Christianity linked with the Roman seat is found all through prophecy -- especially in the book of Daniel. Roman Christianity is NORTH of the vast holdings of Islam.

Roman Christianity is the "king of the north"
Islam is "king of the south".

This prophecy in the last verses of Daniel 11 will yet be fulfilled.
The radical moslems are PUSHING, agitating, raising the indignation of the Christian world.
The pope is calling for unity of all Christians to unit under his primacy to combat this.

APL wrote;

"A look at the map shows that today, Islam holds the land immediately North of Israel:"

Excellent point APL. This is why I say it is extremely important as to when we look at this map! These days is the wrong time to look at this map.

dedication wrote;

"The papacy wasn't around during Alexander's empire either.
Does that mean Daniel's prophecies don't include the papacy?"

But, the papacy shows up as part of Babylon in Daniel chapter 11. If we focus on verses 3-6 in Daniel 11, there just isn't room, as far as time to wait! Verses 3 and 4 clearly talk about the dividing of the Greek Empire into its four parts. Verse 5 immediately introduces the king of the south. We must look at this map right after the dividing of Greece or this chapter doesn't make any sense.

Then, as we get down to verse 8 we find Egypt mentioned again. I understand this map looks much different at different times in history, but Daniel 11 only gives us one point in history to consider as far as the king of the north and the king of the south is concerned.

dedication wrote;

"Daniel 2,7,8 all move from Alexanders Grecian empire on to the Roman Empire and 7, 8 leads us on to the Roman Papal dominion.
So why do we deviate from this set pattern in Daniel 11?"

I am not deviating from that set pattern at all. After Greece, the kingdom of flatteries and intrigue is the rise of the papacy from Babylon. I do believe we need to think in terms of Babylon as well as the papacy at this point.

So, I need to know why we should look at this map in the 8th century AD as opposed to after the dividing of the Greek Empire?

Again, this is all in relation to how it relates to God's people Israel. Earthly Israel was long gone. So, how do we look to Rome as God's people? I don't consider Rome God's people today and I wouldn't consider Rome God's people at 300 AD. Even Peter in the New Testament called Rome Babylon.

So, our bearings are very different and I don't understand why?

Not sure I'm understanding your points.

First -- the kings of the north and south were never God's true people. They were the forces north and south with God's people caught in the middle and usually overrun by one or the other as they fought.

So let's make an historical time line of the
"Kings" in Daniel 11



Another power arises, the beast from the bottomless pit, described in Revelation 11:7,
The beast first reared it’s head in France. Thomas Paine and others wrote extensively about movement.
The Masonic order is dedicated to it. The United States is built on it’s principles.
After terrible scenes of it's ugliness in the French Revolution, for a time this beast from the bottomless pit, seems hidden
as Napoleon restored authoritative control back on France, and the United States, to a large extent,
embraced the principles of Protestantism. Yet masonic and humanistic principles are at work; the principles of evolution,
agnosticism, higher criticism of the Bible, and general humanistic concepts: socialism (a strange emphasis on love emanating from self, rather than from God) and secularism.
This power will become the most powerful military might in the world, and it will give it's power to the papacy.

In the last days the king of the north and south once again emerge.

dedication wrote;

"First -- the kings of the north and south were never God's true people. They were the forces north and south with God's people caught in the middle and usually overrun by one or the other as they fought."

That is correct. The kings of the north and south were never God's people. Israel and Judah were God's people. God's promises to Abraham applied to these people and those who followed them.

And as you stated, they were caught in the middle with one king to the north of Israel and one king to the south of Israel. This relationship ended when Christ walked out of the Temple in Jerusalem and basically said "I leave your house to you desolate." in the end of Matthew 23.

After this and the stoning of Stephen, God's people, now being spiritual Israel were scattered to the far reaches of the then known world. So, there isn't any way to determine a king of the north or south or any other direction because we couldn't look to Jerusalem or Israel that way anymore. Galatians 4:21-31.

As Christianity started to spread, Rome was already gaining attention among the faithful. Yet, Peter declared Rome to be Babylon. So, we can't look to Rome for that bearing of north and south. There isn't any place to look for that now. The only opportunity given mankind for this was a divided Greece. It can't get any simpler than that.

So, let me ask you this; When do you look at this map of Europe? Why do you choose that particular time in history? How does that fit with the Biblical narrative? How does your idea work in Relation to God's people?

I'm simply saying that the past has its place, but the light of Present Truth transcends the dim light of yesteryear.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away... For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Corinthians 13:9-10 & 12).

It must be understood that Daniel 11 begins with the three kings who issued decrees to restore Jerusalem - Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes. From there the 2300-years count down to 1844 when Michael stood for His people in the IJ Daniel 12:1.

Then Daniel 11 repeats at verse 6 through Michael standing for His people at Christ's Advent.

It is so simple that a child can understand it but so complex that the wise folks will stumble over it.

The time of the end (Dan. 11:40) was not fulfilled in the 18th, but in the first century CE: the time of the end of the dispensation of the Jews.

///

Blessings His child,

There was also a fourth from Persia who was the richest. But, the point of this thread is "Identifying the Kings of the North and South". How would you identify these two kings and who do you believe they are?

Blessings James Peterson,

Well, the first century started the "last days". But how does this help in Identifying the kings of the north and south?

It is simple -- just follow the narrative of the prophecy itself.
What happened from verses 24 onward all has to do with Christianity, which spread into Europe and Asia Minor, northern Africa including Egypt and westward. During the 1260 years the true Christians were caught in the middle of Roman Christianity and Muslims.

Rome was the "new Babylon".

dedication wrote;

"It is simple -- just follow the narrative of the prophecy itself.
What happened from verses 24 onward all has to do with Christianity, which spread into Europe and Asia Minor, northern Africa including Egypt and westward. During the 1260 years the true Christians were caught in the middle of Roman Christianity and Muslims.

Rome was the "new Babylon"."

But, the kings of the north and south had long been identified by verse 24...correct?

You seem to avoid verses 3-6 and how those kings were identified back at that time.

How were those kings identified?

Personally I feel safest in following the example of Ellen White in this matter.

• Dan. 11:2. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
  3. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
  5. And the king of the south ... 6. ... for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement ...

In verse 8, it identifies the KINGDOM OF THE SOUTH as Egypt of the Ptolemies. It is obvious then that the KINGDOM OF THE NORTH was SYRIA of the Seleucids. And the land between was the "KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" of the Jews. The LAST DAYS (as you call it) or the "time of the end" (Dan. 11:40) was the complete and utter desolation of house of the Jews: their land and all its inhabitants. (Mat. 23:37-39, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, UNTIL ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.")

Jesus Christ interpreted the prophecy for you. Why then do you run around frantically reading things that do not profit?

///

Blessings James Peterson,

Daniel 11:2 starts talking about Medo-Persia, then Greece and then to Rome. A lot of years have passed between 11:2 and 11:40. Can you explain how you arrived at Syria as the king of the north?

Alchemy,

Once it is understood that Daniel 11:2-12:1 has been fulfilled as the 2300-years from (the 3 kings climaxing in 457 BC through 1844 AD, it is very easy to identify the kings of the north and south. Knowing that Daniel 12:1 ended in 1844 the first time when Michael stood to begin the IJ thus that moment in history aligns 12:1 with Revelation 10:11 (Thou must prophesy again).







After 1844 Daniel 11 prophesies again beginning at verse 6.





And if you study the chapter prayerfully you will find that the king of the North moves to the USA (now it's Obama) and the king of the south goes back to its own land (Mussolini to Italy) and then it moves to Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran.

To keep it simple read the book America, The Obama Nation. Get the e-book ($10) or the book ($15). Then you will know more than you want to know.

This is how I read it now: the Supreme Court will declare independence from God this month. God will remove His protection from our godless America. Iran will attack the US fleet in the Gulf. And Obama (the power that is to return to pluck up the third horn from the former Eastern Roman Empire- Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran) will do exploits against the Covenant (Constitution) and Sunday Laws will be close behind.

This map of the break up of the Greek Empire after Alexander will help you.

///

James Peterson wrote;

"This map of the break up of the Greek Empire after Alexander will help you."

And if you pay close attention to the northern kingdom, you will see Babylon in it. Babylon is the King of the North.

The Bible is clear about Babylon in the Book of Peter and Revelation. You will find Babylon in the Prophecies of Daniel as well, including Daniel 11 in the King of the North.

Correct! The KOTH comes to his end. THEN - Christ stands up, probation closes. The Papacy continues, it has not ended. The KOTH is not the Papacy according to the Adventist pioneers, and their writings were endorsed by EGW, and the situation in the Middle East today shows how they can be correct.

The time to look is always at the time the events happen. The KOTH is always who holds the territory at that time. This is an Adventist Pioneer position. Daniel 11 is a literal prophesy, speaking of literal events. The KOTH was always the identified with who was in the literal location at that time. Read the title to U. Smith's book on Daniel 11, what is the title?

APL posted;

"Originally Posted By: alchemy
This is why I say it is extremely important as to when we look at this map! These days is the wrong time to look at this map.

The time to look is always at the time the events happen. The KOTH is always who holds the territory at that time. This is an Adventist Pioneer position. Daniel 11 is a literal prophesy, speaking of literal events. The KOTH was always the identified with who was in the literal location at that time. Read the title to U. Smith's book on Daniel 11, what is the title?" (emphasis mine)

Just for clarity. The KOTN is always Babylon. I understand Babylon is made up of three different entities (papacy, apostate protestantism and spiritualism) made up of many countries over thousands of years. But, the KOTN is always Babylon. Correct?

The original kingdom of Babylon is long gone now. The City of Babylon is long gone now. That bearing can't be made any more today, but it was made once and for all after the dividing of Greece. Correct?

This is how in Daniel 11:40 the KOTN could be using Franch.

You err, not knowing the scriptures or the historical record.

The Hellenistic World (Cities and Empires in 240 BCE)
Source: http://platos-academy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Hellenistic_Map_240BC.jpg

CITIES

1. Nicomedia
2. Pergamum
3. Ephesus
4. Antioch
5. Tyre
6. Damascus
7. Dura-Europos
8. Babylon
9. Seleuceia
10. Alexandria
11. Gaza
12. Petra

EMPIRES (300 years AFTER Babylon had fallen)

1. Antigonid Empire
2. Independent States
3. Seleucid Empire (KINDOM OF THE NORTH)
4. Ptolemaic Empire (KINGDOM OF THE SOUTH)

The KINGOM OF HEAVEN (The Holy Mountain, Jerusalem of the Jews) lay between
the Seleucid Empire (Syria, North) and the Ptolemaic Empire (Egypt, South).

Ref: Dan. 11:2-8.
NB: The time of the end (Dan. 11:40) refers the fall of "The Holy Mountain of God" (Jerusalem, 70 AD).

///

James Peterson wrote;

"You err, not knowing the scriptures or the historical record."

No sir, I don't. The king of the north is Babylon.

Well said, hence this map I posted before of:

EMPIRES (300 years AFTER Babylon had fallen)

1. Antigonid Empire
2. Independent States
3. Seleucid Empire (KINGDOM OF THE NORTH)
4. Ptolemaic Empire (KINGDOM OF THE SOUTH)

The KINGOM OF HEAVEN (The Holy Mountain, Jerusalem of the Jews) lay between
the Seleucid Empire (Syria, North) and the Ptolemaic Empire (Egypt, South).

Ref: Dan. 11:2-8.
NB: The time of the end (Dan. 11:40) refers the fall of "The Holy Mountain of God" (Jerusalem, 70 AD).

///

Why do you say I avoid the verses 3-6 --
I didn't avoid them .



The Seleucids and Ptolemies were past history -- they were no longer the kings of the north or south by verse 21.

Rome was the new King of the North
and Rome continues to be the king of the north till the end of time.

There was no king of the south for over 600 years till the Muslims took the southern lands away from Rome in the years following 600 AD.

I do NOT believe that U. Smith had this part of the interpretation right for a number of reasons.
All the pioneers did NOT follow U. Smith.

James White's prediction clearly fits better.



Adventists do NOT believe the Moslems will be the perpetuators of the last day crises? That's going totally against the prophetic picture laid out by SOP.
SOP makes it clear the last day crises is caused by the united forces of apostate Christianity under the leadership of the papacy.

However, seeing the Muslims as the ones that PUSH the king of the North into taking control fits far better.

The King of the North comes to his end BECAUSE Christ stands up not before Christ stands up.

Christ stands up - THEN comes the time of trouble. Who leads out in the time of trouble? Not the King of the North as he has come to his end. It is the Papacy that brings on the time of trouble.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The KOTN plants his tabernacles between the seas and the glorious mountain - this is the current land of Israel. But he comes to his end and none shall help him. Considering current events who would fit this the best, the Papacy or a group like ISIS? The whole world would be against ISIS, and ISIS certainly is not winning friends by its current behavior. No one would help ISIS should it move on Israel and all would be against ISIS and it comes to its end. At that time, Christ stands up, probation is about to close. ThEN the time of trouble comes with who leading out? The Papacy. The Papacy goes to the end, to the second coming before it is completely destroyed.

Stephen Haskell puts it this way: "Turkey [ISIS?] stands as a national guidepost to the world, that men may know what is going on in the sanctuary above." {1901 SNH, SDP 248.1} What is he saying? He is saying when we see the events predicted by Daniel, the end of all things is eminent.

dedication wrote;

"The Seleucids and Ptolemies were past history -- they were no longer the kings of the north or south by verse 21.

Rome was the new King of the North
and Rome continues to be the king of the north till the end of time."

Very well.

My point has always been that Babylon is the king of the north. And that Babylon, or the king of the north, has morphed so-to-speak with different countries at different times in history. But that, Babylon was established as the king of the north after the dividing of Greece.

We see much the same with the king of the south morphing, as I put it, as time goes on. But, as we see today, Egypt is back again. Atheism and pantheism are as strong as ever.

Blessings James Peterson,

Remember that Peter called Rome Babylon long after Babylon was desolate.

From your statement it appears you follow the preterits interpretation that Daniel 11 only goes to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

The preterits basically have the Seleucids and Ptolemaics fighting through most of the prophecy of Daniel 11 and don't see "the prince of the covenant" in verse 24 as being Christ but just one of the high priests.

A large part of the verses are supposedly ascribed to Antiochus Epiphanies one of the Seleucid kings. Is that what you believe?

The comment is on the right track -- but the bulk of it is still future, the twin towers and resultant wars were just a minor foretaste, but things are shaping up very quickly.

I don't think the King of the North is NATO --
The king of the North is Roman Christianity -- a “Church Universal” or one-world church, in the making. This is what all the prophecies point to. It's not so much about political battles, but it is about real battles that are based on religion that will end in the whole world worshipping "the beast".

And that beast is Roman Christianity with political power.

The process is now underway!

We hear of "United Religions" which is meant to be for religions what the UN is for nations. Its purpose is to be the world religious authority, “a UN for religion” in order to foster peace. There was actually a charter-writing summit in 1997 to get the “movement" underway.

Sept. 4, 2014 The former president of the Republic of Israel, Shimon Peres, met with Pope Francis.
His proposal was to create a UN of religions.
“The UN has run its course, what we need is an Organisation of United Religions, a UN of religions,” Peres said in his interview with the Pope. This would be the best way to fight against these terrorists who kill in the name of faith, because the majority of people are not like them, they practice their religion without killing anyone, without this thought ever crossing their minds.”

Peres suggests that Pope Francis to lead the proposed UN of religions:

“When I look around me I notice one thing: perhaps for the first time in history the Holy Father is a leader who has the respect of many people as well as the most diverse religions and their representatives. Indeed, he may actually be the only leader they really respect. Hence the idea I proposed to Francis.”


March 13, 2015
"In an unusually blunt endorsement of military action, the Vatican’s top diplomat at the United Nations in Geneva has called for a coordinated international force to stop the “so-called Islamic State” in Syria and Iraq from further assaults on Christians and other minority groups.

The statement has drawn almost 70 nations as signatories, including the United States.

The south is pushing
BUT radical Islam will come to an end THROUGH MILITARY MIGHT, (the military might described in Daniel 11:41-44) It won't just come to an end because no one helps.

And don't think Turkey or the Muslims religion will come to an end -- it will be subdued and many of the countries will "follow at the heels" (apparently unite with) the Roman United Christianity.

The Roman Religious union ON THE OTHER HAND, will come to its end because the "river" of human support will dry up.


People will herald the Roman Christian union as the great "savior" from the terrorists. This helps him establish himself as the WORLD leader of religion --
It will seem like a great and wonderful thing (for a little while).
Those who oppose it will be accused of being in cahoots with the radicals and persecuted and even killed.

But we have the prophecy there in Daniel that HE WILL COME TO HIS END.

Prophets often give the conclusion before adding the details.
Thus giving HOPE not give up and fall for the counterfeit, but to cling to the hope that Christ will deliver His people.



The King of the North will come to his end because his supposed "solution" will result in a time of terrible trouble, not in the promised peace --
Instead of bringing the hoped for peace to the world, this papal led United Religions will bring on trouble such as never was.

And he comes to his end because his support dries up (that's what is meant by the river Euphrates drying up). And Christ stands up to deliver his people.

dedication wrote;

"The king of the North is Roman Christianity"

I believe 2 Kings 17:24 is a type of what will happen in Daniel 11:40-45. Babylon planting itself in Israel. Just a thought.

Again you err, knowing neither the scriptures nor the historical record.

Peter spoke of the Church in Babylon in Mesopotamia, writing from there himself by the hand of Silvanus. He said, "By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand. The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." (1 Pet. 5:12-13)

This was the Church that sprung up from the dispersion after the day of Pentecost when Peter stood up and addressed the crowd that had gathered about. "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." (Acts 2:5-11)

Further, Josephus mentions the city and the Jews dwelling there saying, "SO king Herod immediately took the high priesthood away from Ananelus, who, as we said before, was not of this country, but one of those Jews that had been carried captive beyond Euphrates; for there were not a few ten thousands of this people that had been carried captives, and dwelt about Babylonia, whence Ananelus came. He was one of the stock of the high priests and had been of old a particular friend of Herod; and when he was first made king ..." (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 15, Chapter 3.1)

The Roman Catholics have always tried to INTERPRET Peter's plain word to mean Rome, since they crave his grave as if it were some invaluable treasure. Are you sympathetic to their cause?

///

The Holy Mountain of God in the book of Daniel is the old city of Jerusalem. Daniel himself says so. In earnest prayer, he cries out saying, "O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, THY HOLY MOUNTAIN: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us." (Dan. 9:16)

The time of the end is its fall in 70 AD. Jesus spoke of the period ("and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time", Dan. 12:1). His word is recorded in Mat. 24:21, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Why do SDA run around blindly, frantically reading things that do not profit, adding false idea upon false idea ... when the clear word of God speaks so eloquently and simply concerning these matters?

///

James Peterson wrote;

"Peter spoke of the Church in Babylon in Mesopotamia, writing from there himself by the hand of Silvanus. He said, "By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand. The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." (1 Pet. 5:12-13)"

Blessings James,

You didn't seem to read what I wrote. Babylon didn't exist at the time of Peter. Peter could not have been speaking literally.

See my post #174475 just above. And by the way, are you sympathetic to the Catholic cause? They are the ones who have perpetuated the idea that Peter must have been speaking figuratively since they have the bones in Rome to prove it.

///

History repeats.











As I currently read prophecy, when the Supreme Court declares independence from God by implementing an abomination as the law of the land, it will declare independence from God June 2015. Shortly after wickedness is declared to be the law of the land, God will remove His special protection that has preserved America through the centuries. Iran (the king of the South will attack the US fleet in the Gulf) and President Obama (the king of the North) will do exploits against the Covenant (beginning with America's Constitution). And prophecy will be fulfilled in its time in a way that was not expected by those who should have been watching and preparing.

Tsk, tsk. Have you not learned anything against making predictions?

This month. June. Within the next week and half. Sounds like something that can be determined to be true or not. But is it? Will you waffle out of it? How can we determine if it's true or not?

By the way, I do believe it could be stated that our constitution declares our independence from God.

I think here you agreed with dedication that Rome was part of Babylon. And Babylon will include apostate protestantism, of which America is a leader. Babylon was not tied to a specific geographical area. Neither the king of the south.

Blessings kland,

Agreed. As time goes on Babylon will use any country that will join her. But, since 538 AD, the papacy has always been the major component of Babylon. We know there is a little horn in Daniel 7, I see this fulfilled in Peter calling Rome Babylon. And we see Rome has changed very much since then so as to promote the rise of the papacy, the little horn in Daniel 8.

As Protestantism has apostatized, these countries have also joined Babylon with the United States leading the way in these last days.

We must not forget spiritualism in these last days. This is rising right before our eyes on TV, books, movies and other subtle ways.

As I currently read prophecy, when the Supreme Court declares independence from God by implementing an abomination as the law of the land, it will declare independence from God June 2015. Shortly [that can be subjective = a few days, months, or years...though I would not expect it to tarry years] after wickedness is declared to be the law of the land, God will remove His special protection that has preserved America through the centuries.

Iran (the king of the South will attack the US fleet in the Gulf) and President Obama (the king of the North) will do exploits against the Covenant (beginning with America's Constitution). And prophecy will be fulfilled in its time in a way that was not expected by those who should have been watching and preparing.

we will not have long to wait to see if I'm in the ball park or if your cautious [fearfulness about proclaiming what the word of God means before it happens] is a blessing to you or a curse.

The question then follows who is Babylon? The woman riding the beast in Rev 17 or the beast itself

But as I read it President Obama is now the King of the North and Iran is the king of the south. So how does that fit with the postulation "Babylon is the king of the north"?

You were quoting Alchemy, though I did write to agree that Rome was the "new Babylon".

As to your question -- who is Babylon of Rev. 17?

The symbolic woman in prophecy represents the "bride of Christ".
A harlot woman represents an unfaithful bride who has other lovers. In other words the "harlot" of Rev. 17 represents apostate Christianity.

Rome is the "king of the north" and in ancient times from 312 AD onward to 1798, Rome combined Christianity and political power in one. Thus in Revelation 13 we see a beast with seven heads, representing this combined power of politics and Christianity that morphed from emperors to papacy.

When the beast was wounded in 1798 the political power was severed from the papacy. (Freedom of religion unenforced by any political power became the norm in Christendom)

The picture in Revelation 17 shows that religion (the woman which represents both Catholicism and apostate Protestantism) unite to revive the old papal supremacy politically enforced system.
It is still Papal Rome as the "head" that is healed (apostate Protestantism has ecumenical union with papacy who literally in our day insists she is the "mother church" not a sister)


Papal Rome has always USED political governments to enforce religion when it had the power. And the USA will be the big political power, as well as the 10 horns of European nations, that will give their power to re-establish the oppressive beast of the old papal system when "united religions" under papal leadership will supposedly bring "peace" to the world, but in reality bring the greatest time of trouble this world has ever seen.


concerning your comment on the president--
The USA is having another election next year. The way I see it -- the democrat presidents largely prepares the things for papal take over in political ways, while the republican presidents do more to prepare things for papal take over in religious ways. The time is just ahead when the USA will give their power in the great attempt to elevate the papacy to world primacy.

Could you show where in the Bible it says the Supreme Court of the U.S. declares independence from God in June 2015?


You're asking dedication how your chosen specific interpretation fits in with her general interpretation?

I find it very difficult to disagree with this, dedication. It has been in the development for many year now, closer to its fulfillment these days. We do not see the papacy as the great enemy now because the Muslim powers are doing the killing. A former pope predicted the unification of the muslims with the papacy in the future.

Blessings His child,

Babylon is made up of the papacy, apostate protestantism and spiritualism. The woman in Revelation 17 has the name written on her forehead, and can not be on her hand, "Mystery, Babylon the Great".

Thanks for clarifying.


Then who is the beast in Revelation 17?
If the papal beast in Revelation 13 is being expanded and explained in rev 17, then how can the woman be Catholicism?

I think she said, represents both Catholicism and apostate Protestantism.

If you mean not now but in the future, I would agree. But who does the actual killing doesn't mean someone else isn't the enemy.

When a nation fills its cup to overflowing with rebellion against God, judgment follows (see my previous post).

My prophetic discernment understands that when the Supreme Court legislates gay marriage as the law of the entire United States, the court will have placed an abomination that makes desolate (because it destroys its adherents) above the law of God. Thus God will remove His divine protection from the US.

From studying Daniel 11:43 "But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps" I have seen that fulfilled in the 2011 Arab Spring. Egypt jailed its dictator. Libya killed theirs. And the one in Ethiopia died of natural causes: in that very sequence. Then tidings out of the east (Syria & ISIL) and out of the North (Russia and the Ukraine) have trouble Obama. (Dan 11:44)

I further understand that Daniel's narration of 11:30-39 is chronological. And 11:40-44 (& maybe 45) is a caveat that explains the details that Daniel skipped over in the narration. After Daniel narrated he explains what led up to Daniel 11:30. Thus the ships from Chittim (Iran, king of the South) are about to move against the King of the North (Obama) and Obama will move against the COVENANT (America's Constitution) and God's Covenant (ten commandments). That would mean Sunday Law!








I presented light as I see it. and as we get closer to Christ's Advent, Daniel and Revelation are explaining themselves. Light is being seen for what it is LIGHT! She can compare the light with what she teaches and everyone can decide for themselves what is light and what is darkness.

My current views are in the book America, The Obama Nation. You can get the e-book ($10) or the paperback ($15). Send me a private message if you want either. I won't be rewriting the material on the web it just takes too much time.

According to the Great Controversy, the woman in Revelation 17 is apostate Protestantism and the beast is the papacy. Thus the name on the woman's forehead in Rev 17 is the mark of the beast. The Mark of the beast upon which she is riding. The beast and the papacy cannot be the woman, because Catholicism cannot be both the woman and the beast.

The "expansion" shows what the situation looks like in the end.
In Revelation 13 it was clearly Papal Rome in political and ecclesiastical power. But it received a deadly wound. It wasn't the religious side that received the deadly wound, but the political power to enforce with armies and civil laws that was severed.

In the end things won't be so clear.
There will be the RELIGIOUS UNION (the woman -- the unfaithful Christian comprised of Catholism and apostate Protestantism)
That part will seem very religious and be very DECEPTIVE with all its "bringing peace to the world" "love" "back to God" "standing together against terror" etc. talk.

But underneath it will be the beast -- the tyrannical power of papal supremacy using national governments and armies to enforce it's agenda.

EGW does not divide it so neatly
In these paragraphs Babylon is comprised of both Roman Catholicism and apostate Protestantism.
Look at this statement:


You see--
it is the uniting of religions that resurrect the beast that received the deadly wound,
bringing again the force of the nations' political armies to implement religious agendas.



Why is this important?

The danger is NOT in governments uniting to stop the Muslim fanatics from killing people -- that is the work governments should do.

What we are seeing is RELIGIONS uniting under the papal head to lead in "restoring peace" using government armies. It's when religions employ or control the power of the State....

Just like the prophecy predicted.

When does the time of trouble begin? AFTER the King of the North has come to his end.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

What do we look for which will be a guidepost as to what it happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary?

APL, you need to show that "shall come to his end" can mean "came to his end".

So what you're really saying is you made up the part about [fearfulness about proclaiming what the word of God means before it happens] to mean something in June 2015.

And it sounds like you are saying the current vote which you already knew about, you are meaning that to be "U.S. declares independence from God in June 2015".

Of course you could say, "California Set to Mandate Childhood Vaccines Amid Intense Fight", shows U.S. declaring independence from God in June 2015". Or any other news article.....

What does "at that time" refer to?

The part you omitted from the 88GC 383 quotation is telling:



When reading the context and not omitting important information, it is as clear as I indicated.

The woman in Rev 17 is apostate Protestantism

The beast is the papacy.

Rev_17:5 "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

That is the Mark of the papal beast upon the Protestants' forehead.

"The seal of a king contains three things, first the name, second his title or claim to authority, and thirdly, the region of his rule." http://biblelight.net/seal.htm

The seal of the beast upon which the Protestant woman is riding:

first the name: BABYLON THE GREAT
second the title or claim to authority: MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS
And thirdly, the region of rule: THE EARTH

I once posted much of this information as a file for your group. But when you added the disclaimer, I deleted it.


1Co_3:2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."

Heb_5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

The Time of Trouble has begun as the Little Time of Trouble.
It is fast moving toward the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

Of course, it could also be said:

"And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know..." Eze_33:33

"Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known."

When he plants the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Yet, future to at that time when he plants himself pretending to be God, getting ready to slaughter the saints, and when Michael shall stand up, future to that time, he shall come to his end, the controversy ended.

But can we just make up vague things unrelated, and then say, see it came to pass?

I must say it would remove you from critique.

When June ends, we won't have nothing to say you were or were not correct

Plating his tabernacle is at this time, still future. You separate the coming to the end and no one helping him from the rest of the sentence, is that fair? What did the Adventist pioneers believe on this? They believed that the KOTN plants his tabernacle but no one helps him and he comes to his end. THEN, Michael stands up. It is consistent with the text. Read what the Pioneers wrote.

Here are two samples:
This treaty was signed, and the ultimatum was officially put in the power of Mehemet Ali on August 11, 1840. Since that time Turkey has been known everywhere as the "Sick Man of the East." Daniel prophesied concerning him, saying, "He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." At any moment, when the jealous powers of Europe can decide, either peaceably, or in battle, which one of them shall occupy Constantinople, the "Sick Man" will speedily take his departure from Europe. That movement, for which nations are now on the alert, will be the sign of still more important changes in the heavenly court. {1905 SNH, SSP 178.1}

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So, then, when the Word says that "he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain," it means that he will move his palace from Constantinople to Jerusalem. What then?--"Yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." That is what the Turks, and the mighty powers, and the people of the nations, all expect. {1900 ATJ, MON 34.1}

And what then?--"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." And that is exactly what all the great powers, and the people of God, expect. {1900 ATJ, MON 34.2}

NOTE - they consistently believed that the KOTH was not the Papacy. But papacy is sure involved in the time of trouble however.

The arguments fails to realize the literary style of prophetic writings. That is the author gives an outline, then fills in details. For example consider Revelation 20-21
There we first read what satan and the lost who are "living again" attempt to do and it reveals their end as fire consumes them.
Then it goes back to tell us what God will do during the same time period when resurrected stand before the white throne judgement and once again tells of their end in the lake of fire.
THEN it tells of the city coming down from heaven (which we understand to be the same city satan and his hordes try to attack. It's the same city where Christ sits on the white throne.

Obviously John in Revelation 20-21 gives us events, then goes back to fill in details.

The same in Daniel 11:40 to 12:3
Daniel 11:40-45 gives the story focused on the earthly power which SHALL come to his end.
Daniel 12:1-3 fills in the details focused on Christ and the situation of His people.

The passages overlap

And he (the king of the north) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


A key point for God's people to remember is that he shall come to his end, because when the pressure is on the temptation to give in will be great.

And at that time (while the king of the north is exercising his power) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: (at this time we can be sure Christ will stand for His people, we need NOT give in to the human powers, remember Christ is on our side,)
and at that same time, there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation (why is there a time of trouble? because the king of the north -- the confederate Roman religious/political power -- by force and might is trying to align the whole world under his agenda) but remember he will come to his end,
and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

ATJ was simply following U.Smith's interpretation.

I do not believe U. Smith was correct in his interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45 and quoting his ideas isn't going to convince me.

James White, who was a leading Adventist Pioneer, understood the problem in Uriah Smith's interpretation, and White's logic makes sense.





The point is simple --
All Daniel's outlines of prophecy follow the same pattern.

1. Babylon (though not included in the later visions after it had already fallen to Media Persia)
2. Media Persia
3. Grecia (which includes the Seleucids and Ptolemy)
4. Rome (which includes early Roman, papal Rome, and healed Rome)
5. Christ's eternal kingdom.

Yes, I agree with Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Rome. That's fine. But that does not define the KOTN. Ellen White called James out for arguing with U. Smith. And ATJ and SN Haskell writing after US, still pointed out that the KOTH was not the Papacy. And Smith warned that this prophesy was future and so to be careful.

But taking the position of the majority of the Adventist Pioneers, and the situation today in the Middle East, the KOTN fits with Islam/ISIL and the events as played out in Daniel 11:45 could easily fit. And if ISIL did invade Israel, and came to its end with no one to help him, it is THEN, that Michael stands up, and is about to leave the Heavenly Sanctuary and the time of trouble is about to start. The Papacy goes until the second coming. the KOTN by the plain reading of Daniel does not.

The king of the North is Rome.

James White was right on that, even EGW says he was right.

U. Smith was connecting current events (the Russian/Turkish war that was being fought at that time) with Daniel 11, and the people were eating it up.

EGW's counsel to her husband was due to the fact she knew if he were to openly challenge Smith it would result in a lot of contention and arguing and people would lose any spiritual blessings, and since the leaders would be going at each other, (both of them being quite hard hitting debaters) the people would start questioning all the prophetic interpretations.



This is what EGW wrote about the occasion:

The Islam situation fits FAR better as the King of the South.

Islam already has their tabernacle in Jerusalem.

In 637 AD, The Muslims conquered Jerusalem from the Romans. (KOTN lost Palestine to KOTS) During the Papal called crusades the (KOTN) fought against the Muslims (KOTS) over Jerusalem, the Christians (KOTN) gaining control for awhile, but it reverted back to the Muslims (KOTS) and remained under their jurisdiction for many centuries.

The Muslims built their "tabernacles" on the "glorious mountain" or temple mount for some 1300 years already. In 691 an octagonal Islamic building of worship, topped by a dome was built by the Caliph Abd al-Malika. The shrine became known as the Dome of the Rock. Though changes and renovations have occurred the Muslims still have their "tabernacle" on the temple site. At present the area is controlled by the State of Israel, but administration of the site remains in the hands of the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf.

Right now the king of the South is pushing -- agitating.
Newspapers pour out news of muslim immigrants flooding European countries, there is news of heightened terrorist attacks against pope, against the United States on July 4, against other countries. The king of the South is pushing the panic buttons.


At that time --

What time?
At the time when the king of the North (Papal led united religion using the power of the state) goes after the KOTS under the "mission" of bringing peace to the world.

"At that time" This is not consecutive -- it's all talking about the same time period. "At that time" Indeed the KOTN continues till Christ delivers His people, and thus, in days ahead when it's extremely dangerous to resist the KOTN's demands, we need to remember that he SHALL come to his end, Christ will deliver His people.

So the Adventist Pioneers knowing all this history, got it wrong, with no reproof from the SOP. In fact, EGW listed U. Smith's book with several of hers as having special importance. And you say she was wrong and the pioneers were wrong. Time will tell who was right. It might not be long...

Daniel and Revelation, Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand.--MS 76, 1901. {PM 356.2}

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In The Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, The Great Controversy, and in Daniel and the Revelation, there is precious instruction. These books must be regarded as of special importance, and every effort should be made to get them before the people.--Letter 229, 1903. {CM 123.2}

The light given was that Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, The Great Controversy, and Patriarchs and Prophets, would make their way. They contain the very message the people must have, the special light God had given His people. The angels of God would prepare the way for these books in the hearts of the people.-- Special Instruction Regarding Royalties, p. 7. (1899) {CM 123.3}

I am a student of Bible prophecy and of the Spirit of Prophecy.

It is written:
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. " (1Co 13:12)

If you don't read it the same way that I read it you won't come to the same conclusions.

It is akin to the Adventists that declared Jesus was coming in 1843. They were wrong. The kept studying and decided that He was coming in 1844. Wrong. Then they decided that Jesus had commenced the IJ in 1844. And of course they were right, but could not prove it except by faith in the Scriptures. So as far as the world that had seen their errors in 1843 and 1844 was concerned, the IJ was another prophecy gone wrong.

I have been on the right prophetic track for years, but just did not have all the info to nail it down until I understood that Pope Benedict would not be pope in 2013.

If I had studied harder and prayed more, I could have nailed it down more before the fact. But I was content to understand the limited amount that I understood at the time.

Then when it happened I could not understand Francis I. But with continued prayer and study, I can affirm what I have partially understood, I now understand more fully.

Iran will attack America's fleet in the Gulf, Obama will "return" and do exploits against the Covenant: America's constitution? And God's Covenant: the Ten Commandments.

It may not happen in June 2015. But it will happen SOON and Obama is the last President that I have identified in Bible prophecy; unless there is something that is yet to be understood from Daniel and Revelation.

I can only witness as to what I understand now. And if Daniel and Revelation fulfill themselves in the endtime differently than I understand them now, I pray for the ability to discern their fulfillment and up-date my views accordingly.

This post of EGW's comments about her husband has nothing to do with the KOTN. The entire quote in context has been made available by "Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D. C. May 2, 1985. Entire Letter" It is in the 1888 materials.

Around 1888 GC President Butler was circulating things that were not in agreement with Waggoner and Jones and he was not allowing them the opportunity to circulate anything in our papers that challenged his opinion. Thus Ellen was using her husband as an example to Butler to have him stop promoting his private interpretation and if he was to persist, then he should exercise Christian courtesy to allow others to give rebuttal.

The KOTN is definitely not Rome.

I agree with that statement.



I'd say it this way: Now that America has become corrupted by the Supreme Court's departing from the simplicity of the gospel, and accepting heathen rites and customs [like gay marriage], she has lost the Spirit and power of God; and in order to control the consciences of the people she will seek the support of the secular power.

When the papacy arose to power in the 30-years from 508-538 its allies plucked up three Arian powers (Visogoths [508], Vandals, and Ostrogoths [538]). America with its allies have plucked up two Islamic powers (Afghanistan & Iraq with Iran to be the third).

Thus I'm studying Reagan's interaction with Iran to see if there is a corresponding date in 2015 that might foreshadow when the #IranUSwar is to begin.

July 3 is the anniversary of the USS Vincennes downing of Iran Air Airbus A300 civilian airliner over Iranian airspace in the Strait of Hormuz, killing all 290 passengers and crew on board. And Iran is mostly Shia Islam. They commemorate deaths more than births or happy holidays. So I'll continue to watch until the KOTN (Obama's fleet) is attacked by the KOTS (Iran) and when it happens; President Obama will do exploits against the Covenant (US Constitution and/or Ten Commandments).

That is where I know we are in the prophetic history of Daniel 11 (vss. 30-39) with 40-44 having been fulfilled as they explain what has led up to 11:30.

Blessings dedication,

Very interesting post.

I do believe the king of the south may have been represented by Islam at certain times, but, we shouldn't use Islam to define who God's people are.

I don't believe the literal nation of Israel or the city of Jerusalem represent the Glorious Land anymore. That ended in the first century A.D. when the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

Nice we agree on one part!



"Apostate" protestant America will play a very important part in joining with the papacy and following papal ways and teachings and using the political and military might of America to support the Papal agenda.

The KOTN in the time of the end is a religious confederation under one head.



The Iran US war .... or more commonly referred to as the coming World War III

While the US is the leading military might on the side of the KOTN, the war against Radical Muslims will not only be conducted by the USA -- but by a confederacy. The news is full of reports of people looking to the papacy to "bring peace", and a call of uniting religiously as well as military to combat the threat.

"The main Vatican UN diplomat, Italian Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, has called for armed resistance to ISIS in a document presented to the UN Human Rights Council."

In another report we read:
"The Muslims want to kill the Pope, they want to conquer Rome and destroy all of the lands of Christianity. This reality brings us to one realization: we are returning back to history, in which Islam arose to invade and conquer Christendom, and to vanquish and obliterate the Vatican.
This leads us to another realization: the Crusades are coming back, and that means a strong Church — which is the true Church — is going to arise from the weak and crumbling ruins of the decayed church of the masses."

All I can say is "Wow!"

The second half of Daniel 11 shows THREE great conflicts between Christendom (KOTN) and the Muslims (KOTS). The first was in the years following 600 AD. The second was in the middle ages with the crusades, the third is coming.

This last war will be terrible -- and I don't think it's just centered on Obama. It's a religious war. Obama may be history as US president in next year's election and a strong religious republican may take the reigns in America who fully throws his weight and influence and the countries military might behind the papal agenda.
Also in this religious union will be Europeans and even moderate Muslims.

It may not even be Pope Francis who is pope through the whole "war" (though he is working to get this unity together to oppose the radical Muslims) He has this great premonition that he will die at the hands of the Muslims. This supposedly in fulfilment with the Fatima prophecies that predict the Catholic church and papacy will suffer greatly before victory, but then a pope is said to arise to lead the world to peace.



We are definitely at the crucial point in the prophetic history of Daniel 11.
Verses 30-36 outline the middle ages crusades and the Vatican's contempt for "the covenant" especially the Sabbath.

We are told this history will repeat.
Verses 40-45 is that repeat -- and it's shaping up in rapid leaps and bounds.

That goes to show that the Lord is not done with us yet. He is still in the Sanctuary and there is hope that we might be in one accord.

The brethren and sisters just focus too much on the papacy. It is as if they never have read:



As I read Daniel, Revelation, and the Spirit of Prophecy. Obama's protestant America is the persecuting power that has taken the papacy's place to wage war against God's people.



The last power to wage war against God's people is America. And it is the last power identified as antichrist that unites with Satan's forces in the last great conflict. Thus Obama's America is the KOTN described in Daniel 11:30.

But do you agree there is the possibility the two are not connected? And if there is a possibility of either one, how does one choose?

I'm cluing in on, "yet". While such word, "yet", doesn't appear to be in the Hebrew, all the versions I find, except YLT, indicate future, for some reason. Regardless of "yet", there still is the part, "at that time". Which time is spoken of? Again, the versions I see, show the second part of v. 45 as a clause or a separate sentence. So I would say, it is indeed fair to separate the two. At the very least, one shouldn't be faulted for separating sentences the same as many translators have, whether they did it correctly or incorrectly.


But do you agree, it turned out not to be about Turkey? They were trying to make scripture fit in with what they thought was the end of their time. If their time was the end, then all prophecies had to be finished, so they did their best to fit them in. However, their time was not the end.

Likewise, if someone thinks their time is the end, they will do everything to make prophecy fit in whether it is with Obama or whomever.

Do you like maple syrup with your waffles?

NO, I think they are connected, and the pioneers did too. AT Jones: In the words of the angel, "He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." The "glorious holy mountain" can be no other place than Jerusalem, which is even now called in the Turkish and Arabic "the holy." It is certain, therefore, that the seat of the Ottoman Empire will be removed from Constantinople, and will finally be planted in Jerusalem, and then it is just as certain that that power comes to an end. {May 16, 1896 LTNe, GCB 692.1}

Daniel 12:1 - And at that time... What time? I think Daniel 11:45 tells us.

AT Jones in his book, The Marshalling of the Nations

Now this eleventh chapter of Daniel is a sketch of the history from the beginning of the reign of Darius the Mede until the time of the setting up of the kingdom of God, as is shown by the words of the last verses of the eleventh chapter and the first few verses of the twelfth. ...

So, when we come to the fortieth verse of the eleventh of Daniel, we are not reading of affairs away back in the days of the empire of Greece, nor of the affairs of Rome, but of affairs down here at "the time of the end," as mentioned in the thirty-fifth verse. Other verses also show the same thing. And bear in mind that the king of the South is always in Egypt, and the king of the North is always the power occupying the territory of which Constantinople is the center. And all the world knows that since 1453 A. D., the territory of which Constantinople is the center, has been held and ruled by the Turks. Then the king of the North at the time of the end is the Turkish dominion.

Now, the last verse of the eleventh chapter of Daniel, speaking of the king of the North, the power controlling the territory of which Constantinople is the center, says, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

For fifty years or more the world has been expecting the end of Turkey to come. The existence of the Turkish nation has been all this time, and is to-day, due to the common consent of the great powers of Europe. ..."

So, the reason that Turkey abides there is that the peace of Christendom may be preserved, and to avoid a general war among these mighty nations. ..."

Now what says the Scripture?—"He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." Constantinople is "between the seas;" but there is no "glorious holy mountain" there. What one place on the earth could be referred to in the Bible by the term ‘the glorious holy mountain’?—Jerusalem, to be sure, Jerusalem alone. ..."

So, then, when the Word says that ‘he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain,’ it means that he will move his palace from Constantinople to Jerusalem. What then?—‘Yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.’ That is what the Turks, and the mighty powers, and the people of the nations, all expect.

And what then?—‘And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.’ And that is exactly what all the great powers, and the people of God, expect. ...

... The drying up of the waters of the Euphrates means the setting aside of the power that holds the territory in that part of the earth that is drained by the river Euphrates.

In the midst of all this, the wiping out of Turkey, the marshaling of the nations—the kings of the West and the East—to the battle of the great day, the warning is given that the Lord is coming. All of these things are but the tokens of the coming of the Lord. These world-movements of the great nations are but the marshaling of those mighty nations preparatory to their coming up to the battle of that great day. And at that time the “great voice” will be uttered from the heavenly temple from the throne, announcing the end in the words, “It is done.” And at that time every one shall be delivered whose name is found written in the book.

Is your name in the book of life? That is the question, the question of all questions—now, as never before in the world. Salvation from sin is always a mighty thing, but salvation from sin to-day is doubly a mighty thing, because it is salvation from sin, and salvation from destruction at the coming of the Lord. It is deliverance from the guilt and the power of sin, and it is deliverance from the fearful destruction that comes upon the nations because of their iniquities. {The Marshaling of the Nations, pages 28-39}

Jones also brings out in his book “The Great Nations of Today” how the first four trumpets constitute the breaking up of the western Roman Empire, and the fifth and sixth trumpets represent the overthrow of the eastern Roman Empire by the Ottoman Empire, and the seventh trumpet represents the destruction of all nations, and the setting up of God’s eternal kingdom.

So if the fifth trumpet, the 1st woe, found in Revelation 8:13 to Revelation 9:11, dealt with the Muslim power, and the sixth trumpet, the 2nd woe, found in Revelation 9:12 to Revelation 11:14, dealt with the Muslim power, doesn’t it seem logical that the seventh trumpet, the 3rd woe, found in Revelation 11:15-19, would also deal with the Muslim power?

So you categorize growing in grace and knowledge as waffling?

I am in good company.

Adventists predicted Christ would come in 1843 & 1844, and then they changed it that Jesus would start the IJ in 1844.
Somebody was willing to take a stand when they thought they understood Bible prophecy.

Sometimes we speak not to clearly and have to clarify.

But I did not celebrate with waffles or anything when I got it right (8 tweets before the fact from 9/3/11 thru 930/12) that Pope Benedict would not be pope in 2013 (He might last till the spring -didn't make it).

didn't celebrate when gay marriage got to be law of the land either though I have posted it and tweeted it for months. I just did not know witch judges would put it over the top.

And I won't celebrate when Iran sinks the US fleet.

But I pray that the church will wake up before it is too late. Then I'll celebrate: waffles with real Maple please.

Blessings everyone,

It would be very helpful to me at least, if we would clarify what types and anti-types are being exposed by all these events. How can we know who represents who in these last days?

For instance; In Luke 8:43-48, Jesus heals a woman who had a bleeding disease for twelve years. Well, the number twelve represents God's government, a woman represents a church, blood represents her sin and her coming to Jesus for help represents her repentance and faith in Christ and her healing represents God's forgiveness and righteousness toward the repenting church.

Can we put all these points in this thread together in such a way that we can all see the types and anti-types, so that we can all see how to interpret these very important symbols?

11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. (KJV)

What does it mean for the king of the north to plant his tabernacles in the Glorious Holy Mountain? Mountain representing a nation or kingdom.

We can see this in 2 Kings 17:24; And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof. (KJV)

We see that Israel had been taken captive from their land and the first people mentioned in replacing Israel are from Babylon. Babylon will replace, or take the place of, Israel. That is what I believe Daniel 11:45 is talking about. So, the king of the north plans to take the place of Israel, and with the Sabbath being trodden underfoot in the South Pacific Division, I believe that has already started to take place.

So, I believe the Glorious Holy Mountain on earth is God's Remnant People. When we let Babylon tell us how or what we believe, it doesn't matter what we are called, we may even be called Seventh-day Adventist! We will be joining ourselves with Babylon all the same. We can this in Samoa right now in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Praise the God of Heaven for the 144,000 who stand until the very end.

His Child, June 2015 has ended. How do you spin it?

I was referring to Yet, and at that time not being required to be connected.


Regarding the king of the north, the other visions of Daniel show the king coming to his end. Previously, that king was Babylon, a confederacy of papacy, apostate protestantism, and spiritualism. Is there some reason to depart from that form in the last vision? Where does Babylon fit in? What power completely shatters the power of the holy people other than the one who goes forth with great fury to destroy and annihilate many from whom Michael will stand up to deliver the holy people before they are all destroyed. And the same assurance as given in the previous visions, Babylon will come to his end and the holy people will triumph.

The Adventist interpretation for most of the existence of the Adventist church viewed the prophesy of Daniel 11 as a LITERAL prophesy, not in types. Even James White viewed Daniel 11 as literal. If you have read Smith's book, Daniel and the Revelation, you would note that the title of the chapter on Daniel 11 is "A LITERAL PROPHECY". The spiritual view is a new view that has come into the church over the last 60 years. When Daniel 11:45 is interpreted literally we have a definite event to mark the close of probation.

Oooops! Sorry everyone, I misspoke, or miswrote in my earlier post.

The Glorious Land in verse 41 is God's Remnant people. God's Glorious Holy Mountain is the New Jerusalem. Sorry, I need to be careful and not rush when I'm writing a post.

But, the principle I intended is the same. Babylon intends to sent up her city to replace the New Jerusalem.

Blessings APL,

I don't believe following types and anti-types is spiritualizing anything!

Could you explain this LITERAL application you mentioned above?

alchemy - read Smith's book and read SN Haskell's book. Have you? You will see that Daniel 11 is not type/anti-type, but literal. Many today do not want to view it as literal.

Just as I had said it would happen.
The Supreme Court decided in favor of gay marriage.

The Supreme Court has set up an abomination that desolates as the law of the land.



Will God withhold His judgments for a time (a year) or will Iran attack America's fleet sooner?

Gay marriage is worse than the institution of slavery in the United States? Is 9/11 worse than Hiroshima? Daniel 11 gives us a guidepost from which we can know what is happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and today Adventists reject it.

No, I'm not going to read these books. I want you to explain what you believe and why! You asked me to explain my beliefs and I did so. If you can't do that, then you are not understanding Daniel 11 and you should just say so.

I disagree with Brother U. Smith and others who believe it's not types and anti-types.

Blessings APL,

What is it about the Heavenly Sanctuary that Adventists have rejected?

In the context of this thread, it is the event that is to be a guidepost to what is happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary. Read Haskell.

On a type/anti-type, it is how God deals with sinners and what sin does.

It is obvious that events in heaven correlate with events that are transpiring on earth, But since we cannot see what is happening in Heaven, we need to watch what is happening on earth that we can see.

To focus on Heaven to the extent that we miss the signs of the times on earth may be like the antediluvians missing the warnings about the flood.

I guess I'm having a hard time that to know that the supreme court was going to hear about homosexuals, to know that they were having this hearing in June, and to know how several many states support homosexuals, and then to make up something that says you predicted something would happen in June makes you a prophet?

Really? You expect us to be in awe?

Well 10 years ago I could have predicted something abominable was going to happen by July 1st of this year. All you have to do is look at the laws which go into effect, pick a choice one which you don't like, call it an abomination, pat yourself on the back.

Sorry. Not buying it. And yes, I know you'll say I'm refusing to listen to "prophecy". Made up non-prophecy.


Hows this for homosexual abomination. And Published June 30th!
“Mutant fish” with giant tumor growing from head caught near Three Mile Island — Officials: “Unrecognizable pathogen” detected in species, “this is very, very serious” — Lesions found at alarming rate — Almost 70% of males have female eggs in testicles

They could say, see, it's a sign.
But:

A high percentage of fish in the river have sex signs of both male and female. That’s not natural.

My point exactly! And God has given us a guidepost to look for.

"I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth. . . . And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God; and he cried . . . saying, Hurt not the earth . . . till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." These angels now hold the winds of strife, waiting for the church of God to prepare for his coming. The sealing angel goes through Jerusalem (the church) to place the seal of the living God on the foreheads of the faithful, and while this work goes forward, Turkey [radical Islam? ISIS?] stands as a national guidepost to the world, that men may know what is going on in the sanctuary above. {1901 SNH, SDP 248.1}

God's eye is upon his people, and he never leaves himself without a witness in the world. No man knows when Turkey will take its departure from Europe, but when that move is made, earth's history will be short. Then it will be said, "He that is unjust let him be unjust still, . . . and he that is righteous let him be righteous still." To-day is "the day of preparation." The fate of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome is recorded for the edification of the nations of to-day, and the lessons taught by all center in the events just before us. While the world watches Turkey, let the servant of God watch the movements of his great High Priest, whose ministry for sin is almost over. {1901 SNH, SDP 248.2}

To focus on the SCOTUS and gay marriage is not what is spoken about in Daniel 11. Is Gay sex worse than heterosex? Are we dealing with sex out of marriage in the church? No. Why? It is rampant and has been going on for a long time.

The large Turkish city, Istanbul, is north of Bosperous and therefore in Europe.

Turkey has for years been applying for membership in the European Union without fulfilling all of the requirements. Therefore membership has not been granted.

It seems like many Turks prefer the Muslim world, but right now the Turkish government permits the Turkish Kurds to fight the Islamic State.

So when will this happen?

The journey of Israel from Egyptian bondage to the promise land is not unlike our journey.

Israel left Egypt with great wealth, Laodicea has great wealth on the eve of Christ's Coming.

Israel stumbled at Baalpeor as they headed to the Promised Land, we are dealing with sexual issues now like never before.

When Israel stood on the border of the Promised Land 10 spies gave an evil report that discouraged Israel from entering at God's bidding, and as Christ's Coming nears: SDA's give an evil report and refuse to look at the very things in Daniel that are of eternal importance because they are so sure of their prophetic correctness that they HAVE NEED OF NOTHING.

His Child, it wasn't June that there's an abomination, but in March!

http://www.adventist.org/information/official-statements/guidelines/article/go/0/immunization/
March 02, 2015

The Seventh-day Adventist Church places strong emphasis on health and well-being. The Adventist health emphasis is based on biblical revelation, the inspired writing of E.G. White (co-founder of the Church), and on peer-reviewed scientific literature. As such, we encourage responsible immunization/vaccination, and have no religious or faith-based reason not to encourage our adherents to responsibly participate in protective and preventive immunization programs. We value the health and safety of the population, which includes the maintenance of “herd immunity.”

We are not the conscience of the individual church member, and recognize individual choices. These are exercised by the individual. The choice not to be immunized is not and should not be seen as the dogma nor the doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Not only does this show the church against health, but against science. Herd immunity is not science based, but a recent fabrication to promote harm to health. Injecting molecules from various species of animals directly into your body is not healthy. Notice they talk about peer-reviewed literature, but list none, because there is none supporting herd immunity nor is there any showing vaccines prevent disease.

This is nothing but an abomination of the church which will cause harm to members as they resist!

I do believe SDA's need to understand these things and I hope they accept them.

Interesting analogy His child.

But, as I understand your statement, we should be watching God's people, not the world. Because only what was happening with Noah and the Ark were the only signs worth watching!

That is what Daniel 11:45 is telling us. When we see the events described, then we know what is happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

I was referring to the Supreme court decision that they issued in June making gay marriage the law of the land. This action effectively declared independence from God's divine plan.

So people make up their own interpretations saying "This has to happen then we will know probation is about to close".

Yet, we know from reading many prophetic passages that ancient prophets do not write with strict sequence, but announce a conclusion then go back and fill in details.

Now -- if we regard that fact, we realize that waiting for some human interpretation of the last part of Daniel 11:45 to happen before we think probation will close, may very well find people still WAITING when in actuality their "sign" that they were waiting for was all wrong and it is too late.


TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION.

That is the scriptural truth.

The prophecy in Daniel 11:40-45
alerts us to the religious wars that will take place
this benefits God's people because no matter which
religious/political tyrant is forcing religion THEY WILL ALL COME TO THEIR END.

Don't be bullied by religious/political powers to turn away from your allegiance to Christ -- HE WILL DELIVER HIS PEOPLE.

Apparently you do not take what the Adventist Pioneers wrote as having any significance. That is your choice of course. See Haskell, "The Story of Daniel the Prophet", page 241, paragraph 1. NOTE - you can say we are waiting for an event before acting, but that is not what is being said. Now is the time to act, for when probation does close, it will be too late. The roll that Haskell and most of the pioneers hold for Daniel 11:45 is to give encouragement to the believers.

What did Christ say? Matthew 24:15-16 When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The Christians knew the fall of Jerusalem was about to happen. We may not know the exact people which will fulfill Daniel 11:45, the pioneers did not believe it was the Papacy, but when the event happens, we will know what is going on. And the final events can start suddenly, and will progress rapidly.

I do find it interesting that in this case the interpretation of U. Smith and those who accepted his interpretation, are presented as of utmost importance, but when it comes to the trumpets and the reapplication of time periods these same pioneers are discarded and their writings treated as having no significance.

Whereas I accept their basic outline of the prophecy and only disagree on a few details within that outline.

And there were Adventist pioneers who DID believe the King of the North was the papacy.





By the way -- the sign to flee has nothing to do with Turkey.
It has everything to do with Sunday observance.

When the Roman idolatrous standard is erected in the holy place, it is time to flee.
That idolatrous standard is enforced Papal Sunday observance.


“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains.” [Matthew 24:15, 16; Luke 21:20.] When the idolatrous standards of the Romans should be set up in the holy ground, which extended some furlongs outside the city walls, then the followers of Christ were to find safety in flight. GC 26

The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. As the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was the signal for flight to the Judean Christians, so the assumption of power on the part of our nation, in the decree enforcing the papal Sabbath, will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains. And now, instead of seeking expensive dwellings here, we should be preparing to move to a better country, even a heavenly. Instead of spending our means in self-gratification, we should be studying to economize.-- Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 464, 465.

Who? James White called it "Rome". He did not call it the Papacy. Who called it the Papacy in Daniel 11:40-45? Daniel 11:45 sets the world up for the Papacy. And then there will be a time of trouble...

When Pioneers spoke of Rome that included the papacy.

James White made it perfectly clear in his writings that when the prophecies of Daniel 2,7 and 8 ended with Rome that included Papal Rome which followed after Pagan Rome.

Thus indeed -- in all consistency he maintained that last power in Daniel 11 was Rome (in it's papal form).

"... the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70, followed by the great tribulation of the Christian Church for more than sixteen hundred years, under Pagan and Papal Rome. {1877 James White, LELJB 299.4}

"The next phase presented by Rome after the Pagan form was the Papal. Rome Papal succeeded Rome Pagan. . {ND James White, OFAH 44.2}

"The Roman or iron power, through the influence and authority of Papacy, or Papal Rome, stretched itself among the clay so as to be mixed with it, and thereby kept up the strength of iron. {1855 James White, FUMP 7.5}

" the Roman Church, while it has mingled with all nations, has not mixed with them, but has kept up its authority over its subjects, under whatever government they may have been located; so that the authority of Rome has been felt by all the nations where her subjects have been "mingled with the seed of men." The fourth, or Roman kingdom is thus perpetuated, though divided. {1855 JW, FUMP 8.1}

"Now comes the inquiry, "Watchman, what of the night?" In what period of prophecy are we now?...Nearly fourteen hundred years. Almost fourteen hundred years we have traveled down in the divided state of the Roman empire. Where does the stone strike the image? "Upon his feet." Where are we now? In the feet. {1855 JW, FUMP 18.2}

(Referring to Daniel 8) To avoid the application of this prophecy to the Roman power, pagan and papal, the Papists have changed it from Rome to Antiochus Epiphanes, a Syrian king, who could not resist the mandates of Rome. {1870 JW, OFH1 113.2}


Thus when James White compares the ending of all these prophecy and asks for consistency for Daniel 11, he is speaking of Papal Rome

And I was referring to the church saying it's ok to inject poison into our bodies. This action effectively declared independence from God's divine plan.

Who is right? How does one determine what is "prophecy" or just someone's opinion of what an "abomination" is?

I would agree. Rome, papacy, Babylon, to me they are one and the same. But I do believe it is apostate Protestantism that will be a main player in the last days. Babylon as the papacy will play a background role, but still a driving and threatening force.

Would it be safe to say, that the last power of prophecy is the three-fold union of the papacy, apostate protestantism, and spiritualism?

I do not think there is a dispute with Daniel 2, 7 and 8. But even James White said that the King of the North was Turkey while Turkey occupied that territory. Ellen openly reputed James for disagreeing with Smith on the subject of Daniel 11:40-45. Many discussion about the "Eastern Question" occurred. Not once did Ellen disagree with Smith and others on this topic, only James. WHY? Because James was right? I don't think so.

Calling the KOTN something other than the Papacy does NOT change the end time events where the Papacy will be part of the three-fold union. The KOTN comes to its end, THEN Daniel 12 happens.

Some have argued that Islam is a tool of the Papacy, Veith for example. That could be a unifying scenario.

What does scripture say "the abomination" spoken of in Daniel is ?

The original word used in Daniel for
Abomination is #8251 (shiqquwts)

1 Kings 11.5
For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
11.7
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.



Matt.24.15-16
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place


Luke 13.14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,

The abomination IS FALSE/PAGAN WORSHIP.
It is better translated as the "desolating sacrilege".

What brings it to special mention in Daniel is the alarming fact that it incorporates itself under the banner of Christianity! The abomination is set up IN THE CHURCH!


The abomination that causes desolation is FALSE RELIGION standing in the holy place, pretending to be true religion! It is desolating because it obscures the TRUE.

The "abomination" was legally set up in the Christian church, in 538 A.D. when the Papacy was given the legal right to enforce his brand of religion and punish all so called heretics-- and lasted till 1798 A.D. when Napoleon legally removed their power.

When we see this "abomination" standing again at the head of Christendom, holding a sword over the religious practices of the population, (specifically commanding Sunday worship) it signals the final fall of Babylon.

Thanks for sharing that thought dedication,

Oh that God's people will be on the right side of that issue!

Christian regards,

William Miller followed the KOTN to Great Britain and the KOTS to France.

Now we know that GB propped up the Ottoman Empire in 1840 and France toppled Egypt in 1798 and that they KOTN and KOTS joined forces in the 1860's Crimean War.

And we know that a woman in the Bible is a church. thus the papacy became the daughter of the KOTS in 1798 when France took the pope captive.

We also know that the papacy had an hour allotted to it (1929 to 2013) for the restored popes to rule their kingdom. Now there are two popes. 1)beast 2)false prophet. With a third to come 3)Satan - the dragon - impersonating a human being.

And we know that ISIS (ISIL) is drying up the Euphrates River to make way for the Kings of the East.

But do we correctly apply what we know?

I believe Ellen White didn't say James was right or wrong but to tell him to stop arguing. She didn't tell Smith and the others anything, because she wanted the discussion to stop.

Islam is not Turkey, but is spreading over many countries. It is not tied to any country.

If Islam is a tool, or was actually created by the papacy, then wouldn't it follow it is the king of the north? That it is none other but the same thing? I don't know about Veith, but has it not been suggested the papacy will put an end to Islam, and/or convert them to "christianity"?

Daniel 11:45 says the KOTN comes to his end, THEN, Michael stands up and the time of trouble comes, Daniel 12:1. Some interpret this as saying the KOTN comes to his end after the time of trouble starts with the second coming. But that is not how I read Daniel 11:45. Who ever the KOTN is, he does not go to the end. The Papacy does.

Then can Islam be considered a tool of the papacy? Because tool, part, etc., would not be considered as a king coming to his end.


I still think you need to justify the conjunctions.

And he shall plant
Yet he shall come,
At that time

In the past the pope regarded Islam as an ally that he would have les probblems with than with sects who believed that a person could decide him/her-self if s/he wanted to be saved. That decicion, as far as I understood it, should be at the discretion of the church at Rome.

I have that book in a box in storage.

Dan 11:45 "And he [Obama] shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas [Mediterranean & Galilee] in the glorious holy mountain [Carmel?]; yet he shall come to his end [be consumed by Christ's glory], and none shall help him."

Dan 7:11 [endtime meaning supplemented] "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake [Pope John-Paul II] : I beheld even till the beast [Obama] was slain, and his body [Bush II] destroyed, and given to the burning flame [consumed by glory of Christ's Advent].

Dan 7:12 "As concerning the rest of the beasts [lion, bear, & leopard], they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time [91-years].

Reagan turned 90-years old 2/6/01. 9/11/01 was a significant marker in his 91st year. The rest of the beasts are Reagan (endtime head of gold = Reaganomics, lion's mouth=great orator; silver=Bush I, bear who invaded Nicaragua, Somalia, & Gulf war; brass=Clinton, Greek licentiousness & 4 joint chief's of staff [became 5 after he left office])

Pope John-Paul II died (4/2/05)exactly 42 full months after 9/11/01. That is a fascinating study as well.

When you understand these points, Daniel 8 makes more sense.

Really?

God looked down the ages and saw presidents Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and Obama, popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis 1? The reason why you are a false prophet is because you are obsessed over the end to the point where you are strongly tempted to set a date.

///

Excellent post kland! I agree with you on this post.

I do believe the papacy is the driving force behind Babylon, but we know the "ten horns" of Revelation 17:12 is Apostate Protestantism.

It seems hard to understand by some how the Adventist Pioneers could believe that the KOTN was not the Papacy. The following from Haskell's book on Revelation I think gives part of their reasoning. Prior chapters have more on this thinking.

CHAPTER XII. THE THIRD WOE

The record contained in the three preceding chapters is the world's history from the stand point which could be best presented to the human mind by the symbol of the trumpet. The eighth chapter portrays the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The prophet, in the ninth chapter, follows events which occurred in connection with the downfall of the Greek Empire and the setting up of the Ottoman power, clearly portraying the four periods in Turkish history: first, its rise; second, the one hundred and fifty years, during which time its power was restricted; third, the three hundred and ninety-one years and fifteen days of supreme rule; fourth, its existence by sufferance, until driven from Europe. The tenth chapter of Revelation gives the loud cry of the first angel's message, which was proclaimed by believers in God just at the time of the ending of the second woe. It foretells also the greater work to follow in the form of another message, which is given in detail in the fourteenth chapter of the book of Revelation [Margin: Rev_8:2; Four periods in turkish history. 1st. Rev_9:1-4. 2nd. Rev_9:5-21; Rev_10:1; 3rd. Rev_9:14; Rev_15:1-8 :4th. Dan_11:45.; Rev_14:7; Rev_14:9-13] The eleventh chapter, the one now before us, goes back to the Western Empire, and shows what was going on in that part of the world during the time that the Turkish Empire was making history in the eastern division. {1905 SNH, SSP 191.1}

The barbarians in 476 left Rome in a divided state. The ten tribes, namely, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards, the Heruli, the Vandals, the Visigoths, the Suevi, the Saxons, the Huns, the Burgundians, and the Franks, were by that time, or a few years later, settled within the borders of the Western Empire True, the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths were of short duration, having been, before the year 538, "plucked up" to make way for the enthroning of the ecclesiastical power, according to the prophetic history of Dan_7:8. But from the other seven developed the nations of Europe which are in existence to-day. The smoke from the "bottomless pit" beclouded the eastern sky, and the consideration of the Eastern Empire necessitates a study of Mohammedanism instead of Christianity. The condition was different in the western division, that portion of Europe still claimed to be ruled by the precepts of Christ. Mohammedanism in its attempt to conquer the western nations met with a telling defeat in the eighth century, and never renewed the attempt. So the West stood before the world as the representative of the Christian religion. Here the principles of civil and religious liberty, to-day held dear, were born: and here, likewise, was committed to these nations, in a special manner, the everlasting Gospel, with the commission to make it known to the world. God was preparing, from afar, for the spread of the last message to the world. [Margin: Dan_2:40-41; Dan_7:24; Dan_7:8; Rev_9:2; 2Ti_3:5; Rev_12:16] {1905 SNH, SSP 192.1}

To John was given a measuring reed, "and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." Men have as many standards for measuring their fellow-beings as there are different individuals, but the one absolute rule by which men's actions are measured for eternity, is an infinitely perfect and unvarying standard. It cannot be comprehended by the finite mind; for it is infinite. "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." The "reed like unto a rod," with which John was bidden to measure, was the commandments of God. With his angel guide, the prophet was shown the church of God and the world, and the wisdom of God was given to him that he might record the results of the measurements. God's law is but an expression of His own character, and John's mind was opened to an appreciation of the principles upon which the government of God is established. There was the temple where the Father sits enthroned, Himself the center of all law, all life, all love; His presence pervading all things, upholding all things, controlling all things. The temple was to be measured, and when measured, it told the story of absolute love, the power of the Creator, who made all beings to reflect His own perfection. Then John was to measure the altar. Here he saw the High Priest, with His censer, offering the prayers of His saints. Only the Infinite mind can grasp the breadth and length and depth and [Margin: Rev_11:1; Jas_2:12; Rom_2:12-13; Rom_8:7; Mat_12:36-37; Isa_28:17; Rom_7:12; Rom_7:14; Lev_19:30; Heb_1:3; Rev_8:3; Rom_8:26-27] height, and know the love of Christ which "passeth knowledge"; but this theme will be man's study throughout eternity, for when it is known, it reveals the fullness of God. Again it is infinite love. And as it is measured, it must be measured in every direction; there is length and breadth and height and depth; and in it all, the measures read, Love! infinite, far-reaching love! {1905 SNH, SSP 193.1}

The prophet was told to measure them that worship in the temple; for the creatures of His hand reflect His image, and are measured by the same standard. Angels worship in that temple, and they reflect the character of Him who is love. There were also men in that temple as worshipers; saints, who, while still on earth, were by faith within the inner veil; and they too were measured by the same reed of His law. Not an outward measure of stature, nor an external weighing of motives, as viewed by the human eye, but character was the test, with the rule of heaven for a standard. The character which is rewarded with a place near the throne is not shallow, but deep; it is not narrow, but broad; and in length it must measure with the life of God. A long experience, a deep experience, a broad experience in divine things, even while living here on earth; this is the life which develops a character that will stand the test of the "measuring reed." {1905 SNH, SSP 194.1}

Under the third seal was revealed a power on the earth which carried a pair of balances, to weigh the deeds of men. While a self-righteous standard was being erected on the earth, God was measuring according to the rule of heaven; and when character was measured by the divine rod, eternal life was often given to those, who [Margin: Eph_3:17-20; Rev_5:9-10; 1Pe_2:5; Amo_7:7-8; Isa_61:10; Rev_6:5] according to the balances in the hands of man, were accounted worthy of death. {1905 SNH, SSP 194.2}

It would seem that the attention of the prophet was called to the measuring in the outer court, which the loosened seals had revealed to him; and he is told to leave out "the court which is without the temple, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles," those who know not God; and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. This locates the scene definitely in what was the Western Empire, for the same period of time is given by Daniel. In the seventh chapter of that prophecy, the power which plucked up the three barbarian tribes before referred to, "shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: and they (times, laws, and saints) shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." {1905 SNH, SSP 195.1}

In prophecy one day stands for a year, and time is reckoned thirty days to the month. Forty-two months is equivalent to twelve hundred and sixty days of prophetic time, or twelve hundred and sixty years of literal time. The "time and times, and the dividing of time," is the same period as the "forty and two months," or twelve hundred and sixty years. The power which trod the people of God under foot for twelve hundred and sixty years was the papacy. This power was established in Rome in 538 a. d. on the ruins of the Western Empire, and continued until 1798 a. d. This was the period known as the Dark Ages for Europe. During this period the smoke of Mohammedanism hid the light of [Margin: Rev_20:4; Rev_11:2; Dan_7:25; Num_14:34; Rev_13:5; Dan_12:7; Rev_12:14; Rev_12:6; Rev_13:2; Rev_9:2-3] the sun in the East. Mohammedanism in the East, and the "man of sin" in the West, both brought darkness and despair. Mohammedanism tormented men like the sting of a scorpion; the "man of sin" held men's minds in such subjection that they saw nothing above the exalted man on the throne. In the East, the Koran and a false prophet bore sway; in the West, precisely the same thraldom existed; for while there was no Koran, the Word of God was suppressed just as effectually. As Mohammedanism substituted the sixth day of the week for the Sabbath, and accepted a false prophet instead of Christ, so the "man of sin" thought to change the law of God, and attempted to change the times which were created by the Word of Jehovah, as surely as man himself was so created. In the East, the Koran wholly replaced the Bible; in the West, God said, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, that they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth." For twelve hundred and sixty years [days] the light of God was hidden as beneath a covering, of sackcloth. Men think that with the advanced knowledge of the twentieth century, human reason has outgrown the Word of God; but history proves, without the shadow of a doubt, that when the Word is replaced by [Margin: 2Th_2:3; Eze_34:18-19; Dan_7:25; Rev_11:3] the products of man's mind, both moral and intellectual darkness are brought upon the world. In this darkness the balances were held by those who believed that man was above God, that reason was the ultimate standard for judgment; but at that very time God was measuring character by the measuring reed of heaven,-the law which man in his blindness had set aside. {1905 SNH, SSP 195.2}

The "two witnesses" are the Old and the New Testaments. In the mouth of two witnesses every word is established. The Old Testament told of the God, who strove to live in man; the New Testament told of the God, who had lived in the human form, and the two agree. The same mystery is revealed to each individual heart in the providences of God. Christ, the God-man, sat on the curbing of Jacob's well at the hour of noon, when the Samaritan woman came to draw water. Likewise the Divine Spirit drew the woman of Samaria to the well at the very hour when the Son of man was there. These two witnesses agree. They agree in lives to-day. When the spiritual eye is opened, the testimony of the two witnesses will be accepted. {1905 SNH, SSP 197.1}

For they are the "two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves." By the prophet Zechariah, the church is represented as a golden candlestick having seven branches, each bearing aloft a light for the world. These seven branches receive their oil from a single bowl, and the oil for this bowl is supplied by two olive trees, one on either side. The purity of the oil they burn is represented by the close connection with living, growing trees. This oil [Margin: Mar_7:13; Eze_22:26; Rev_11:4; Zec_4:2-6; Gal_4:4; Joh_4:6-7; Zec_4:12; Rev_1:20; Zec_4:2-3; Joh_6:63] is the oil of grace, the truth of God. The unity of the seven candlesticks is typified by the common bowl from which each gains its supply of oil. How beautiful a picture of the work of God's Word in ministering to the needs of the church on earth. Life flows from the Old as well as the New Testament to those whose hearts are open channels for the Spirit. When connection with the living trees is severed, spiritual death is the result. The lights may burn for a time, but they soon exhaust the supply in the bowl, and gradually the flame dies out. Extinguishing a light does not affect the olive trees. Indeed they are trees of life, guarded by flaming swords, like the tree of life in the garden of Eden after the fall; and the flashes of light destroy the life of those who lift a hand against the witnesses. Men may claim to receive light, independently of these witnesses; but there are no channels for the communication of the spirit of wisdom and knowledge, except these two trees, or some of their branches, through which the life, the golden oil, is constantly flowing. It is thus that they have power to stay the heavens that it rain not. It is for this reason that the three and a half years of drought in the days of Elijah are used by the divine historian to illustrate the three and one-half prophetic years, the twelve hundred and sixty years of darkness, brought about by severing the connection between the church and the two witnesses. When the connection was broken the restraining power of God was withdrawn; and as in the natural world, so in the spiritual, there was nothing to prevent bloodshed, famine, and persecution. The time of great persecution [Margin: Joh_15:5; Mat_25:8; Rev_11:5-6; Isa_55:11; Jas_5:17; Nah_2:2; Rev_17:6] was the period during which the witnesses prophesied covered with sackcloth. The Reformation removed the sackcloth from the two witnesses. From the close of the fourteenth century, when Wycliffe's translation placed the Word of God in the hands of the common people of England, until the full dawn of the Reformation, the restraint which had long been placed upon the Scriptures was gradually removed. The light was spread largely through the schools. In Germany, the University of Wittenberg made the study of the Word its most prominent feature, and at the educational centers in England, Germany, and France the heralds of truth received their inspiration and their training. In the preparation of laborers; the Scriptures formed the basis of all instruction; and as the classics and false sciences of the Dark Ages gave way to the Bible as a textbook, so the formal, lifeless methods of theological instruction were exchanged for teaching which fed the souls of the students. The remarkable swiftness with which society was remolded when the Word of God was restored is witnessed to by all historians. The historian, Ranke, states that in the short period of forty years the darkness had been broken from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, and Germany sat at the feet of Protestant teachers. Error trembled before a few teachers armed with the invincible Word of God. At this juncture the speedy overthrow of the false system was prevented by a counter educational movement. The organization of the order of Jesuits, in reality a papacy of the papacy, sent into the world a body of active workers, shrewd, well educated, and armed with [Margin: Nah_1:13; Psa_119:98-100; Act_19:19-20; Deu_4:6-8; 2Co_11:13-15; Tit_1:15] a double-faced conscience, which enabled them to penetrate anywhere and assume any role. One of their most efficient methods of procedure was in the schools. They founded new schools in the very shadow of the Protestant institutions, and drew from their patronage; or when this was impossible, they entered Protestant schools under the guise of Protestant teachers. Everywhere they gained the children and the youth. They were more zealous, more ambitious than the Protestants, consequently the succeeding generation surprised the Reformers by turning a large part of Europe back under papal control. Their work was most fully developed in France. That country had received the light of the Reformation, but on this ground the Jesuits found excellent material. The universities of France clung to their old methods, and they likewise clung to the subjects taught during the Dark Ages. Under the forms and ceremonies of Mediævalism, papal principles of government lurked, ready to spring into active service at the first opportunity. The renewal of these teachings wrought the same effect in the sixteenth century that the false teachings of the Alexandrian philosophers did in the church of the early Christians. {1905 SNH, SSP 198.2}

One cannot condemn the Jesuit teaching as wholly evil. It was as subtile a mixture of the good and evil as the devil ever compounded. It was when the two witnesses were escaping from the bondage of the Dark Ages, where they had finished their testimony in sackcloth, that the beast, which ascended out of the bottomless pit, made war against them and overcame them, and killed them. [Margin: Mat_23:13-15; Tit_1:11; 1Ti_6:20-21; 1Ti_6:3-5; Rev_11:7] {1905 SNH, SSP 200.1}

The Counter-Reformation, known as such by all historians, was felt throughout Europe; but France was unfortunate enough to have sown an abundance of seed, and consequently reaped a bountiful harvest. France is the only nation that ever openly denied the existence of the Deity, and set up a worship recognizing no other ruler than the "Goddess of Reason." A woman, a profligate opera singer, was set up in Paris as a personification of reason, the god which France acknowledged. No other government ever made so base a movement. Men and women danced and sang in honor of the base idolatry. Other parts of France imitated the example set by Paris. The woman, veiled and worshiped in form, was but a type of what men will do when reason is enthroned above God. The decree prohibiting the Bible, changing the week, and establishing the worship of the "Goddess of Reason," was issued in 1793. For three years and a half, the two witnesses,-the two olive trees, which alone bring life to man or nation,-lay dead in the streets of Paris. The licentiousness of Sodom in the days of Lot, was repeated in France, especially in her capital The gross idolatry of Egypt, with its proverbial darkness, was to be found again in modern France. As the Jews, by rejecting the Word of God sent by the prophets, severed their connection with heaven and crucified their Lord, so France repeated the sin, and crucified again the Son of God. {1905 SNH, SSP 201.1}

The Reign of Terror had established itself in France. Whoever was suspected of hostility toward the tyranny, was immediately hurried to the scaffold; to be lukewarm was no protection. [Margin: Hos_8:7; Dan_11:37-38; Jer_6:19; Rev_11:8; Gen_19:4-11; Heb_6:6; Jer_8:9-10] Old age and youth alike suffered. Wild license was given to divorce and to profligacy. "There were seen, even in the hall of the convention, throngs of coarse and fierce men, and coarser and fiercer women with their songs and wild outcries and gestures." "Crowds escorted the batch of victims carried on carts each day to the place of execution, and insulted them with their brutal shouts." Men of other nations looked on in utter astonishment. The worship of reason was abolished, and the convention passed a resolution acknowledging the existence of God, but denouncing Christianity as a base superstition. Thus the Reign of Terror went on. "The deaths from want," says one historian, "much exceeded a million. France was on the brink of a great famine on the Asiatic scale." But men grew weary of bloodshed, and "great fear fell upon them which saw" these things. The God of heaven called a halt. Nations of the earth had seen the consequences of rejecting the Word of Jehovah; they had had before them, in the Reign of Terror, a most terrible example of the rejection of the principles of the Reformation. The Spirit of God was again recognized as residing in the "two witnesses," and before all nations the Scriptures have since been exalted. Those nations, which adhered most closely to the truths developed in the withdrawal from Roman tyranny, have taken the lead in the work of education, in invention, in judiciary matters, and in all lines of progress. Copies of the Word of God have been multiplied until the [Margin: Hos_13:16; Lam_4:12; Rev_11:9-12] poorest are without excuse, if they remain unsupplied. Before the terrors in France, little attention was given to foreign missions; but in 1804 the British Bible Society was organized. Thirteen years later, the American Bible Society came into existence, and millions of copies of the Word have been printed. Its translation into hundreds of different languages has placed ignorance of the Scriptures entirely out of the question. {1905 SNH, SSP 201.2}

The restoration of the Christian religion in France, marked the beginning of its modern history. The Revolution of 1798 is spoken of as "a great earthquake," in which the "tenth part of the city fell." The "beast" received its deadly wound. Not only was the reign of papal tyranny at an end, but the power of the monarchy was shaken; and the vast army of nobles, which some historians give as seven thousand, lost their titles. The government was in the hands of the middle classes, or the common people. The exaltation of the Scriptures is always followed by a government which recognizes the equal rights of all men, and by a religion which grants the privilege to every man to worship according to the dictates of his own conscience. Men who advocate a system of government that rejects the atoning blood of Christ, or an educational system which exalts reason above faith, place themselves on the very verge of a precipice, and the next step will produce a repetition of the Terrors of France. The blindness with which men repeat the experiences of the past is amazing. The Jesuits may not be responsible to-day for the trend which many public institutions are taking, but, [Margin: Rev_11:9-12; Pro_2:10-12; Psa_119:130; Rev_11:13; Job_32:8-9; Ecc_3:15; Nah_2:10; Hos_4:7; Luk_7:30] without doubt, the methods the Jesuits used, are repeated in the twentieth century. Education which leaves out God, is putting the government into the hands of statesmen who will eventually exalt the Goddess of Reason. {1905 SNH, SSP 203.1}

The second woe, as already seen, ended in 1840. The close was marked by the transfer of Turkish power into the hands of the western nations. In heaven is witnessed the sending forth of the mighty angel of Rev_10:1-11. The earth responded to his loud cry, and men, thinking that time was about to close, prepared to meet their God. But the seventh angel had not yet sounded. He was held in heaven for a little space, that men might be prepared for the events about to come in connection with the completion of the earth's history. "The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly." The little period between 1840 and 1844, during which the message of Rev_10:1-11 was delivered, was the time between the close of the sixth trumpet and the sounding of the seventh. In the tenth chapter of Revelation John was told that "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished." When the seventh angel "begins to sound," in the first part of the period of time set apart for his work, the mystery of God would be finished. "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever." A kingdom can never be truly said to pass into the hands of another power, while either the territory, the capital, or the subjects, [Margin: 1Co_5:6-7; Deu_32:1; Rev_11:14-15] are beyond its control. It takes the three: subjects, capital, and territory, to make the full kingdom. The work of the investigative judgment, is Christ making up the number of the subjects, or in other words, taking one-third part of His kingdom; when the judgment is ended, then is given to Him the Holy City, the capital of the kingdom,-the second third part. When He comes to the earth, He takes possession of the territory, and possesses the kingdom in all its fullness forever. The enrollment for the new kingdom is made by Christ in the presence of the Father, while angels are watching. The books are open, the judgment begins; the measuring reed is applied to character. Christ offers the prayers of all His saints,-those whose names are written in the book of life,-together with the fragrant incense of His own righteous life; in this way the heirs of the kingdom are enrolled. {1905 SNH, SSP 204.1}

Again the prophet sees the work completed; and the four and twenty elders, who have long waited for the redemption of their fellow beings, fall before the throne, and worship Him who is crowned King of Kings. These are the beings who, with the host of the redeemed, will finally have the renewed earth for their home. A part of their song before the Father is, "Thou hast made us unto our God kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth," showing that in the midst of heavenly glory, they yet look forward to the restoration of the earth at the end of the thousand years, during which time, the cases of the wicked are tried. {1905 SNH, SSP 205.1}

In 1844 the third woe began. It extends into eternity, covering all the corruption of the [Margin: Rev_21:9-10; Mat_13:40-41; Rev_3:5; Luk_9:26; Php_4:3; Isa_4:3; Rev_11:16-18; Isa_30:8-10] last days,-the anger or distress among nations, which was one sign of the second advent, as given by the Saviour. During the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the seven last plagues are poured out; men, having rejected God, drink of the wine of His wrath. During this sounding, the righteous and wicked pass through the last great time of trouble, in comparison with which the Reign of Terror in France was a. light affliction. During this woe, the saints of God welcome the Lord in the clouds of heaven, for He comes to give reward unto the faithful. This period continues over the one thousand years following the second coming of Christ, and ends when Satan and all the wicked are reduced to ashes upon the surface of the new earth, and all sorrow and sin are forever vanquished. {1905 SNH, SSP 205.2}

As foretold in the Scriptures, the ministration of Christ in the most holy place began at the termination of the prophetic days in 1844. The words of the revelator apply to this time. "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." At the beginning of the work of the investigative judgment, when Christ entered the most holy place, the door in heaven was opened, and the law of God was seen as the foundation of His throne. It was immediately after the bitter disappointment of 1844, when earnest souls were still searching the Scriptures, that the sacredness of the law was revealed. As the decalogue was presented, a special glory shone about the Fourth Commandment. The seal of the law stood out as if written in letters of fire, and a new significance was given to the measuring reed which the angel offered. [Margin: Jer_30:7; Jer_30:11; Rev_20:9-10; Mal_4:1-3; Rev_11:19; Dan_8:14] {1905 SNH, SSP 206.1}

The Law of God

[Editor's Note: This is view of the 10-commandments (lacking the prefatory verse in Exo_20:2) pictured on a scroll in a graphic.]
I.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
III.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
IV.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
V
Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
VI.
Thou shalt not kill.
VII.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
VIII.
Thou shalt not steal.
IX.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
X.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

The fuller significance of the trampling under foot of the law, and of the thinking to change the times and laws of Jehovah by an earthly power, filled the people of God with reverential awe; and again the two witnesses were exalted to heaven. The sealing work began at this very time, and those who were looking heavenward, saw the light streaming from that open door. Upon those to whom these rays are shining, the sealing angel places the mark of God. This sealed company make up the one hundred and forty-four thousand, who are a part of the host for whom the "four and twenty elders" are now waiting. {1905 SNH, SSP 207.1}

As the proclamation is made in heaven that the work is over, the commandments are again seen; this time written on the clouds of the sky in the eyes of all men,-a sign of the near approach of Christ. {1905 SNH, SSP 208.1}

Under the sounding of the seventh trumpet are the thunderings, lightnings, voices, earthquake, and hail, which will shake the very foundations of the earth. With the close of the third woe, the earth is freed forever from the least taint of sorrow and sin. The Lord has pledged His word that affliction shall not rise up the second time, but joy and peace will reign forever in the redeemed earth. [Margin: Lev_26:2; Rev_7:2; Rev_7:4; Psa_50:6; Psa_119:172; 1Th_4:16-18; Nah_1:9] {1905 SNH, SSP 208.2}

Most people no longer agree with most of what Stephen Haskell wrote above.
He is presenting the basic Adventist historicist view of the trumpets -- which is sound doctrine but few even on this forum still teach it.

First and second woe (Rev. 9) deals with the rise and fall of the Moslem power -- the two phases in history of that power.
Rev. 11 deals with the 1260 year oppressive papal power as well as the fall of the papal political power (and monarch power) during the time of the French Revolution.
Third woe (Rev. 11 last part) signals the IJ beginning in 1844 and covers everything till Christ establishes His eternal kingdom.

Actually I find the Haskell's basic interpretation fits very nicely with
1. The king of the North being the Papacy
2. The king of the South being the Moslems.

Now I realize he does not call them that -- however what he writes ABOUT them fits.

I noticed you skipped page 196 in which Haskell talks about
Mohammedanism in the East and the "man of sin" in the west, and that together they placed false religion in the place of Biblical worship.

He is right on in showing that these two powers were the controlling religious powers during the dark ages and both received a real blow to their power just before the seventh trumpet (the time of the end and the sanctuary and 3 Angels' message) began to sound.

The only thing he has wrong is in thinking east and west, instead of following the progression of NORTH AND SOUTH.

Indeed these were (and are) the two powers being spoken of in the second half of Daniel 11.
The Christian control was north of the "Great Sea" and the Moslem control was south of the "Great Sea" --also they were often in battle over the literal city of Jerusalem.

Three great confrontations between the two are predicted. Two are history (the fifth and sixth woe) the third is still in the very near future.

The third will have the King of the North as
Papal authority as its head and "lord", USA and other traditionally Christian nations as its military might, spiritualism as its charismatic appeal.

Your implications that I skipped page 196 is meant to imply I was hiding something? OR, perhaps you do not understand the pagination of the quotation I gave? I skipped nothing in my quotation. References are given by the page on which a quotation starts. It happens that there is no paragraph that starts on page 196. All of page 196 is included in 195.2.

YES - Turkey is referred to as the Sick man of the EAST. Are you implying that Turkey is the king of the East? I hope not! Why was Turkey referred to the the Sick man of the East? East of what? This is because the Roman empire was divided in to how many divisions? TWO, one the Eastern division, one the Western division. Who ruled the Western? The Pope. East? Mohammedanism. To quote Haskell: From the mouth of the "dragon" was cast out a flood of iniquity, of false doctrines, of false teachings, of persecutions, in the hope of forever drowning the truth. In the East, this flood was "smoke" from the "bottomless pit" in the form of Mohammedanism; in the West, it was the papacy. [Margin: John 12:31-33; Acts 20:29-30; Revelation 12:13; Daniel 12:7; Revelation 12:14-15; Lamentations 3:45-46; Mark 7:7-9] {1905 SNH, SSP 220.2}

No, I think he is spot on.


All the Adventist Pioneers viewed Daniel 11 as a literal prophesy. Thus, North, South, East and West were literal compas points. In the portion I quoted, Haskell writes:

The record contained in the three preceding chapters is the world's history from the stand point which could be best presented to the human mind by the symbol of the trumpet. The eighth chapter portrays the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The prophet, in the ninth chapter, follows events which occurred in connection with the downfall of the Greek Empire and the setting up of the Ottoman power, clearly portraying the four periods in Turkish history: first, its rise; second, the one hundred and fifty years, during which time its power was restricted; third, the three hundred and ninety-one years and fifteen days of supreme rule; fourth, its existence by sufferance, until driven from Europe. The tenth chapter of Revelation gives the loud cry of the first angel's message, which was proclaimed by believers in God just at the time of the ending of the second woe. It foretells also the greater work to follow in the form of another message, which is given in detail in the fourteenth chapter of the book of Revelation [Margin: Revelation 8:2; Four periods in turkish history. 1st. Revelation 9:1-4; 2nd. Revelation 9:5-21; Revelation 10:1; 3rd. Revelation 9:14; Revelation 15:1-8; 4th. Daniel 11:45.; Revelation 14:7; Revelation 14:9-13] The eleventh chapter, the one now before us, goes back to the Western Empire, and shows what was going on in that part of the world during the time that the Turkish Empire was making history in the eastern division. {1905 SNH, SSP 191.1}

Do you see his references for for the four periods of Turkish history? Was Haskell confused? Was he confusing directions? Or do the directions have other significant meaning? See the following from Haskell in the same book in a previous chapter:

This treaty was signed, and the ultimatum was officially put in the power of Mehemet Ali on August 11, 1840. Since that time Turkey has been known everywhere as the "Sick Man of the East." Daniel prophesied concerning him, saying, "He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." At any moment, when the jealous powers of Europe can decide, either peaceably, or in battle, which one of them shall occupy Constantinople, the "Sick Man" will speedily take his departure from Europe. That movement, for which nations are now on the [Margin: Obadiah 1:7; Psalms 7:16; Isaiah 25:11-12; Daniel 11:45; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 7:1; Luke 21:25-27] alert, will be the sign of still more important changes in the heavenly court. {1905 SNH, SSP 178.1}

Again, is Haskell confused? Nope. He is consistent through out and consistent with other Adventist Pioneers through out. He is also consistent that the KOTN in Daniel 11:45 will come to his end, THEN, Daniel 12:1 happens, Michael stands up. The Papacy does not come to its end until the second coming. Dedication, you have tried to bypass this part of the verse saying, or course he somes to his end. But the verse is saying that it is before the time of trouble. He comes to his end before Michael stands up.

Your implications that I skipped page 196 is meant to imply I was hiding something? OR, perhaps you do not understand the pagination of the quotation I gave? I skipped nothing in my quotation. References are given by the page on which a quotation starts. It happens that there is no paragraph that starts on page 196. All of page 196 is included in 195.2.

YES - Turkey is referred to as the Sick man of the EAST. Are you implying that Turkey is the king of the East? I hope not! Why was Turkey referred to the the Sick man of the East? East of what? This is because the Roman empire was divided in to how many divisions? TWO, one the Eastern division, one the Western division. Who ruled the Western? The Pope. East? Mohammedanism. To quote Haskell: From the mouth of the "dragon" was cast out a flood of iniquity, of false doctrines, of false teachings, of persecutions, in the hope of forever drowning the truth. In the East, this flood was "smoke" from the "bottomless pit" in the form of Mohammedanism; in the West, it was the papacy. [Margin: John 12:31-33; Acts 20:29-30; Revelation 12:13; Daniel 12:7; Revelation 12:14-15; Lamentations 3:45-46; Mark 7:7-9] {1905 SNH, SSP 220.2}

No, I think he is spot on.


All the Adventist Pioneers viewed Daniel 11 as a literal prophesy. Thus, North, South, East and West were literal compas points. In the portion I quoted, Haskell writes:

The record contained in the three preceding chapters is the world's history from the stand point which could be best presented to the human mind by the symbol of the trumpet. The eighth chapter portrays the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The prophet, in the ninth chapter, follows events which occurred in connection with the downfall of the Greek Empire and the setting up of the Ottoman power, clearly portraying the four periods in Turkish history: first, its rise; second, the one hundred and fifty years, during which time its power was restricted; third, the three hundred and ninety-one years and fifteen days of supreme rule; fourth, its existence by sufferance, until driven from Europe. The tenth chapter of Revelation gives the loud cry of the first angel's message, which was proclaimed by believers in God just at the time of the ending of the second woe. It foretells also the greater work to follow in the form of another message, which is given in detail in the fourteenth chapter of the book of Revelation [Margin: Revelation 8:2; Four periods in turkish history. 1st. Revelation 9:1-4; 2nd. Revelation 9:5-21; Revelation 10:1; 3rd. Revelation 9:14; Revelation 15:1-8; 4th. Daniel 11:45.; Revelation 14:7; Revelation 14:9-13] The eleventh chapter, the one now before us, goes back to the Western Empire, and shows what was going on in that part of the world during the time that the Turkish Empire was making history in the eastern division. {1905 SNH, SSP 191.1}

Do you see his references for for the four periods of Turkish history? Was Haskell confused? Was he confusing directions? Or do the directions have other significant meaning? See the following from Haskell in the same book in a previous chapter:

This treaty was signed, and the ultimatum was officially put in the power of Mehemet Ali on August 11, 1840. Since that time Turkey has been known everywhere as the "Sick Man of the East." Daniel prophesied concerning him, saying, "He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." At any moment, when the jealous powers of Europe can decide, either peaceably, or in battle, which one of them shall occupy Constantinople, the "Sick Man" will speedily take his departure from Europe. That movement, for which nations are now on the [Margin: Obadiah 1:7; Psalms 7:16; Isaiah 25:11-12; Daniel 11:45; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 7:1; Luke 21:25-27] alert, will be the sign of still more important changes in the heavenly court. {1905 SNH, SSP 178.1}

Again, is Haskell confused? Nope. He is consistent through out and consistent with other Adventist Pioneers through out. He is also consistent that the KOTN in Daniel 11:45 will come to his end, THEN, Daniel 12:1 happens, Michael stands up. The Papacy does not come to its end until the second coming. Dedication, you have tried to bypass this part of the verse saying, or course he somes to his end. But the verse is saying that it is before the time of trouble. He comes to his end before Michael stands up.

Personally, I have wondered why Babylon continues to exist? How is the Dragon accomplishing anything to save himself? I do believe the Dragon has a plan to save himself. He has not conceded defeat quite yet.

In Proverbs 10:30; The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

When I read in the Bible that the Dragon went to make war with the remnant of her seed (Rev. 12:17), I believe it is his complete intention to destroy all God's people from off the earth! Proverbs 10:30 says the wicked will never completely inhabit this earth in its present state, or ever. If Satan can destroy all of God's people so there isn't even one left on the earth, Satan can claim victory after all.

So, I believe during the little time of trouble that there will be a lot of martyrs for Christ as well as many others murdered needlessly. I believe it will be like Herod murdering all those innocent children to try and kill the baby Jesus. But, God will save a 144,000 which Satan will not be allowed to murder or harm.

This leads up to Daniel 11:45. Satan, through Babylon the KOTN, will plant his tabernacles between the seas, the people of the whole earth, and God's Glorious Holy Mountain which is the New Jerusalem. I believe Satan believes that he can keep that Holy City New Jerusalem from coming down to this earth by having his wicked to completely inhabit this earth. In effect, Satan would have defeated Christ by defeating His Word in Proverbs 10:30.

What do you think of that?!?

It does not address the question...

Of course it does! It all has to do with Daniel 11 which helps in identifying the KOTN and KOTS.

How did you miss that point?!?

Really... So who is the KOTN? Generic "Babylon" does not help.