Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP

Many SDA today have been taught, and understand, however vaguely, the view that there is to be only one closing probation for mankind. That is when the 7 plaques start falling upon mankind. But let us see what Scripture and SOP truly say concerning probation.

" If there is only one close of probation, no purification of the church, and the slaughter of Ezekiel meets its fulfillment only after the close of the final probation, then how do they explain the following statements which are applicable at the time when the warning of Ezekiel Nine is proclaimed to the church?"

Says the Spirit of Prophecy:

"Here we see that the church -- the Lord's sanctuary -- was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God has given great light, and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days.

Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say, The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus peace and safety is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins.

These dumb dogs, that would not bark, are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children, all perish together." (Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 5, p. 211.)

"Note that the slaughter took place in the church, and that because the ministry had betrayed their trust. They rejected the warning and contended against the fulfillment of Ezekiel Nine as a miracle. They said, "The Lord will not manifest His power as in former days" and Inspiration places the blame on them for the sins among God's people.

If the slaughter comes after the close of probation, how could God finish His work with wicked ministers who have betrayed their trust? If the slaughter falls after the close of probation, and if they believed in its fulfillment, how could they say, "The Lord will not manifest His power as in former days....He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment"?

For the ministry unanimously agrees that God will manifest His power after the close of probation. Therefore, the prophetic Word of God in the above reveals the fact that the ministers will reject the fearful warning as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel.

They have made the term "general destruction" of "The Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 3, p. 267 to mean the destruction of the wicked in the church and in the world all at the same time. But let us allow Sr. White to interpret her own meaning of the word "general destruction."

It will be noticed in "The Great Controversy," p. 26, while speaking of the destruction of ancient Jerusalem, says those who did not desert the city were "involved in the general destruction of the wicked." Therefore, if the words "general destruction of the wicked" at the time Jerusalem was destroyed did not mean all the wicked; both in the church and in the world, why should the same words mean now the destruction of the wicked in the church and in the world?

If the present corrupt ministry is to remain in the church until after the close of probation, then what about the following quotation which comes from the pen of inspiration and was published in "The Review and Herald," of Nov. 19, 1908?

"Only those who have withstood and overcome temptation in the strength of the Mighty One will be permitted to act a part in proclaiming this message when it shall have swelled into the Loud Cry."

The above quotation clearly states that no impure ministers will have a part in the work of the Loud Cry of the Third Angel's Message! If the church is to remain in her present condition till the close of probation, how could the above quotation be correct which is just as authoritative as "Early Writings," p. 15, and how could it be said of the church:

"Clad in the armor of Christ's righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. 'Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners,' she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer" ("Prophets and Kings," 725), if the church is to be defiled and demoralized until her work is finished and probation closed?

If the purification of the church is to take place after the close of probation and if the present church leadership is to complete the
work, then how can our brethren explain the following quotation which is found in "The Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 5, p. 80, from which we quote?

"But the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace. God will have a people pure and true....Those who have trusted to intellect, genius, or talent, will not then stand at the head of rank and file....They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He can not use them...

The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view....But, it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed."

If the purification takes place after the gospel work is finished, then why should He disclose another set of servants, and why say, After the purification He cannot use those who are self-sufficient and independent of God?

...If there is no slaughter before the close of probation, then how do our brethren explain Isaiah 66:16, 19, 20 where it says those who escape from the slain of the Lord were sent "unto the nations" to declare God's "glory among the Gentiles" and that those who escape from the slaughter "shall bring all your brethren...unto the Lord out of all nations "?

If those who escape from the slaughter were sent to all nations and brought all the brethren are not the 144,000 in the time when the message shall go to all the world then who are they? If they escape from a slaughter after the close of probation, why should they declare God's "glory among the Gentiles" if He cannot save them at that time? Moreover, if the "general destruction" takes all the Gentiles (the wicked) there would be none left to whom the escaped ones could declare God's glory." (Sym. Code, Vol. 1. no.18, p.9-10)

GLL posted another Houteff article that tries to prove the basic Shepherd Rod teaching that
Adventists must all die before a message of truth goes to the world and then a temporal kingdom of peace and righteousness is set up in Palestine.

Once again positions are stated about what Adventists believe and EGW teaches that are not correct.




That is assuming Houteff understands the warning of Ezekiel Nine, when in fact it can be shown he does not, for GLL has given us evidence that Houteff's teachings denied that the church will be tested on the Sunday issue.

Also-- even though it has been shown repeatedly that there will be a purification of the church, this is once again dismissed to enable a false premise to be presented.
Yes, there will be a purification of the church, but it will not be a "sudden death" of everyone in the church, so "Shepherd Rod" followers can take over.

The cleansing comes by TESTING. When persecution comes the half-hearted, uncommitted, will renounce the truth. Even those who have the intellectual knowledge but lack faith will give up their stand for the Lord. Thus it will be shown that they were never anchored in the Savior and in truth. This is the great shaking as a very large number will join the opposing party and turn on their former companions in the faith.


Houteff quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy:

"Here we see that the church -- the Lord's sanctuary -- was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God has given great light, and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days.

Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say, The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus peace and safety is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins.

These dumb dogs, that would not bark, are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children, all perish together." (Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 5, p. 211.)


But contrary to Houteff's explanation and premise notice:
It's true the passage is speaking from a point in the future which looks back--
These men HAD been given great light,
they HAD been guardians of God's people,
but they didn't believe God would work miracles or manifest His power as in former days.

What miracles? What power?
No, the miracle was not that God would kill them, but like the Israelites on the boarders of Canaan they don't believe that God would sustain them and give them victory in the face of the "giants" against them. They didn't believe that God would SAVE THEM if they went against the ecumenical flow. When governments made things difficult they didn't step out in faith doing God's will, believing that God's power would sustain and save them to the end. Instead they complied with the popular demands and pressures of earthly powers and gave up the truth and encouraged thousands of others to give up following God's commandments and accept the man made command. After all it seemed like the way to keep peace and live "safely" in this world.

Their faith was DEAD -- instead of believing in God's power they caved in to the demands of the antichrist and his confederacy.

Compare with this quote by EGW
"The angel said, "These are they who once kept the Sabbath, and have given it up." I heard them cry with a loud voice, "We have believed in Thy coming, and taught it with energy." And while they were speaking, their eyes would fall upon their garments and see the writing, and then they would wail aloud. I saw that they had drunk of the deep waters, and fouled the residue with their feet,--trodden the Sabbath underfoot,--and that was why they were weighed in the balance and found wanting. {CET 101.1}




Houteff asks: "If the slaughter comes after the close of probation, how could God finish His work with wicked ministers who have betrayed their trust?

The question is based on his false premise --
God doesn't finish his work with those who betrayed their trust, for they have joined the opposition.

God finishes His work with those who remain faithful. True, we have been told that few "great men" will be leading the faithful then, they will have forsaken the cause.
Yet, the very work of the opposition brings the whole question before the world as those who remain faithful witness even in the face of persecution and loss.

And yes, God will manifest His power with miracles and with the outpouring of his Spirit as His faithful witness for Him. Every person will hear the truth before probation closes.

Houteff seems to think "miracles" and God "manifesting His power", is only in executing judgment????

No, God will manifest His power BEFORE the execution of judgment. But those who accept the ecumenical solution to the world's problems will be shaken out and not receive God's power or the outpouring of the Holy spirit.

Before the execution of judgment the test will come to every person, to the church first, and to world, in which every person will reveal their allegiance to God or to the antichrist.
Before the execution of judgment the truth will be proclaimed.


Houteff asks:
If the slaughter falls after the close of probation, and if they believed in its fulfillment, how could they say, "The Lord will not manifest His power as in former days....He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment"?

That question doesn't even make sense.
Houteff seems to be saying a person has to believe his timing, or they don't believe in judgment at all. Yes, there will be an execution of judgment.

Those who betrayed their trust
didn't believe God would perform miracles to sustain them through the crises, and thus they figured God won't judge them if they went along with the demands of the antichrist coalition. After all the merging of religions was to bring peace and safety to the world, why be different?


But it's AFTER probation closes that they realize how wrong they were. It's AFTER probation closes that God reveals His law and pronounces His blessing on those who stood firm on God's side.
It's AFTER probation closes that the people who were deceived by those who betrayed their trust turn on those leaders. It's then that Ezekiel nine's reign of terror takes place as people turn on the religious leaders and on each other. (As in GC 656)


Houteff asks more question:
"They have made the term "general destruction" of "The Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 3, p. 267 to mean the destruction of the wicked in the church and in the world all at the same time..... but...if the words "general destruction of the wicked" at the time Jerusalem was destroyed did not mean all the wicked; both in the church and in the world, why should the same words mean now the destruction of the wicked in the church and in the world?"


Firstly, EGW says of the destruction of Jerusalem.
"In the destruction of the impenitent city He saw a symbol of the final destruction to come upon the world." DA 743

"John lived to be very aged. He witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem, and the ruin of the stately temple,--a symbol of the final ruin of the world." DA 817

" The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law. GC 37


Of course the whole world wasn't destroyed in the "symbol" that was a shadow of the world's destruction.
When a localized event is a symbol of a whole world event, its not correct to say because the symbol didn't encompass the whole world thus its fulfilment can't encompass the whole world either.

However, all warring factions within the city, whether they were the religious conservatives, or the radical rebels were destroyed.
Only those who had "come out" were spared.

Thus it will be in the end.
The last call is to "Come out" of the merged spiritualistic/religious/world centered union and obey and worship the one Who made heaven and earth, the sea and the fountains of water. (The call in Rev. 14 quotes from the Sabbath commandment)

The last crises will be over loyalty and obedience to God with a faith that believes in His sustaining, saving miracles and power even when the whole world and even many of the church are against us.

Human probation closes for the human race when Jesus throws down the golden censer and declares - It is done. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Obviously people who are living just before probation closes do not all reach one of the two states named above at the same time. Some will reach it years, months, or days before. Each person reaches it based on their individual walk with Jesus. There is nothing corporate about it. However, this is not to say there is nothing corporate about certain aspects of last day events.

In the last days, the shaking will in a large degree be based on what we are learning in our Sabbath School lesson today --

Dead faith is really no faith
We need living faith that bears (works) fruit.

The quote in 5T 211 reveals the dead faith of those who will be shaken out:
"They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days.
Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say, The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment."

These are people who know and believe the Biblical stories of God's deliverance in the past but take the position that God won't manifest His power in their behalf, they think they have to make new policies to "fit in". They think God won't care if they "keep the peace" by adjusting their lives to the demands of the ecumenical unity of Sunday keeping. Their faith is dead. They believe neither in God's promises of overcoming nor that they are loosing salvation and eternal life by compromising.

There is a big difference in believing something and having faith. Faith lays hold of God's promises and doesn't waver but does the works of righteousness even when conditions make it extremely difficult.

Yes, by not having living faith, they become unjust, a condition they strengthen as they argue for the rightness of their wrong decision. While those who have living faith that has experienced God's transforming work and power in their lives, will move forward in faith, believing God will deliver and give them the power to stay true -- and God will!

Yes, I agree with MM
Probation closes when Christ throws down the censor -- but people establish which side they will be on at different times prior, depending how they respond to Christ's leading.

Note: to those who are following some of our posts, I would like to point out the reason I do not respond to "Dedication". We had a back and forth for a few months on many subjects and unfortunately I found her, again and again, refuse to address or acknowledge clear obvious points and questions. I cannot go into a meaningful dialogue with someone who continues to ignore straight clear questions. She has proven to me "wanting" and now she has the situation just as she wants it, where she can respond to my posts and give her often non-sense and twistings, without anyone calling her out. May God help us to not fall under the following condemnation:

"He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them." (2 Thes.2:10)

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." (Rev. 8:1)
"And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matt 13:42)

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."(Rev.22:20)

Mountian Man--
The Scripture points most definitely to two close of probations. One for God's remnant church and the other for the world. Address each one if possible.

Consider these--

Rev.12:15-17 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Let us break this powerful future prophecy down as God would have us.

1) Satan (the serpent) casts waters out of his mouth like a flood(unconverted) after the woman(church). This obviously means Satan has infiltrated the church with his tares, so much so that it appears to flood the church.

2) But the earth helped the woman by opening it's mouth. What could this be but God (earth) divinely doing an act that swallows (eliminates)the tares (flood)?

What strong evidence do we have from Scripture that the earth opening it's mouth is God's divine act of removing unconverted in the midst?

"And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods." (Numbers 16:32)

3) Notice that this act of God happens BEFORE close of probation. For we notice clearly here that Satan goes to war with the woman(church) after the flood is swallowed not before. This is the "time of trouble such as never was". Who does Satan then go after-- those who have the SOP and Commandments--converted ones.

4) If this "swallowing" is not an act of God (ie. Ezekiel 9) then tell me what it is? Give Scripture back up as we have done.

Brother Houteff brought us the above understanding, if you or anyone else cannot see this, then offer something better.Don't just nit pick it. Agree if it makes sense (love of the Truth). Truth can afford to be fair as EGW says.

We have more proof to come, Happy Sabbath!

I did address the issues, I gave you long answers complete with bible texts and EGW quotes, but you would not acknowledge my answers. I do NOT agree with Houteff's conclusions or his "cut and paste together" of EGW passages woven together to make it seem like she is agreeing with his conclusions when the context of her writings do NOT agree, and because I disagree with Houteff, that's why you (not God) have found me "wanting".

When I found my responses were simply pushed aside and the posts became many pages long -- it was just too much. My time is limited and it was obvious you were entrenched in Houteff's theories and could see nothing else.




In my studies I have found Houteff's conclusions to be in serious error. It is error I refuse.
There is NO salvation in Palestine -- all who look there for a temporal kingdom will be badly deceived.



And yes, we did discuss the following Biblical passage as well.

It lifts a prophecy concerning the 1260 day/years and applies a different meaning to it.

Quote:

Rev. 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev.12:15-17 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Yes, let us look at this powerful prophecy.

1. The dragon (Satan) was cast out before this world was created, however he still had access to heaven as seen in the story of Job, he was fully cast out of heaven at the time of Christ's crucifixion.

Who is the woman?
The woman who fled into the wilderness for 1260 years is NOT the Adventist church. Here we see the struggle between God's people and the papal church during 1260 years spanning 538- 1798. God's people moved into the mountains so they could worship God according to their conviction of truth.


Satan casts out of his mouth water as a flood doing everything possible to destroy the Christian faith and those who would not render obedience to the paganized papal church.

What is represented by a "flood" in scriptures.
It represents a destructive power that kills.
There are quite a number of references in scripture of the enemy armies coming in like a flood and destroying. (Daniel 11:22 being one example)

So Satan's purpose is to destroy the true Christian faith.
When he casts out the flood, it is still speaking of the "woman" -- the woman that fled into the wilderness.
Yes, the flood can mean false, deceptive teachings, but more often it means armies.

In the years just prior to the reformation, the papacy repeatedly sent out whole crusades of armed men to kill the church in the wilderness. Terrible scenes of cruelty and slaughter were repeated over and over again. Whole cities wiped out, in which the Huguenots or Waldensians had found refuge. In 1478 the pope issued an order to have them completely exterminated.



It is from these scenes of terror that these people were helped. The 1260 years came to an end and a wonderful new thing -- religious freedom -- came into being.

A beast is seen coming up OUT OF THE EARTH (Rev. 13:11) and the EARTH helps the woman. Protestant America is born -- the land of religious freedom which for years resisted the flood of Roman armies. (But that is ending as the dragon takes control)

Yes, it is AFTER the woman is helped that we see the remnant -- a group of people (an offspring of the woman) who discover and embrace all TEN of the commandments and who have the testimony of Jesus (the spirit of prophecy)

The woman of Rev. 12, represented the Christian church that resisted the papal apostasy throughout the 1260 years,-- symbolizing God's church, while the "remnant of her seed" is the Adventist Church which accepted the full 10 commandments.


That is where EGW places the "remnant".

In an article written when the church chose the name "Seventh-day Adventist" she wrote:
" I was shown in regard to the remnantpeople of God taking a name.... The name, Seventh-day Adventist, carries the true features of our faith in front, and will convict the inquiring mind. Like an arrow from the Lord's quiver, it will wound the transgressors of God's law, and will lead to repentance toward God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4SG 55


Revelation 12 is not speaking about probation closing.

Ok, you want to keep your word? If you will declare here publicly that you will address each and every question I ask you from now on (and I do like wise) I shall correspond again to your points and questions. If there is a question you do not know the answer to,or I do not know, we'll acknowledge and say--"I do not know."

This way we are not hoping around selecting only certain questions or points which we use in an attempt to further our agenda.

What I am saying is--let's be accountable. The Truth is more important than ego and pride.

Is that a handshake in the site of God and our members?

"For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour." (Isaiah 63:8)

"I have been shown that the greatest reason why the people of God are now found in the state of spiritual blindness is that they will not receive correction. Many despised the reproofs and warnings given." (Testimonies, vol.3, p.255)

"It is the essence of all right faith, to do the right thing at the right time." (Testimonies, vol. 6, p.24)

Most likely, in practical terms, it won't matter. People will not realize probation has closed until after the plagues begin falling. The 144,000 will, for the first time, begin praying - "Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe." They will not pray this prayer until after probation closes.

Ok, a non-answer. But now let's look at more powerful evidence from Scripture of the soon ending of probation for God's remnant church.

In graphic demonstration that He will come to earth with all His angels to execute judgment upon the living, the Lord revealed Himself prophetically to Ezekiel as being brought enthroned to earth by four living creatures just before the slaughter of the hypocrites in the church takes place. And as each of the living creatures has the face of a lion, the face of a calf, the face of a man, and the face of an eagle (Ezek. 1:10),

-- the same judicial insignia as have the beasts who are before the throne in the heavenly sanctuary (Rev. 4:7) in the time of the judgment of the dead, -- and as they descend to earth, they thereby symbolically show that the work of the mediatorial-judicial throne which convenes and presides over the judgment of the dead is extended to earth.

This extension, so far as we are able to know now, must take place at the opening of the seventh seal (Rev. 8:1), for at that time the celestial voices, which opened the judgment of the dead, cease in the heavenly sanctuary and begin, after the half hour's silence, to sound on earth.

In other words, just as in heaven at the opening of the judgment of the dead, there were "lightnings and thunderings and voices" (Rev. 4:5), likewise on earth at the opening of the "judgment of the living," there are "voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake." Rev. 8:5.

With the judgment of the dead, however, the work of separation takes place in the books in the heavenly sanctuary; whereas with the judgment of the living, the separation takes place among the people in the church as well as among their names in the books in the heavenly sanctuary, thus showing that both sanctuaries will finally be cleansed.

Inescapably, therefore, the Lord's coming to His temple (Mal. 3:1-3), His coming with all His angels (Matt. 25), and His coming enthroned above the living creatures (Ezek. 1), -- all three representing the same event as has been shown, -- take place at the beginning of the judgment of the living: the time in which the judicial activities of the heavenly sanctuary extend to the earthly sanctuary -- the church.

"And I looked, and behold a white cloud," exclaimed John the Revelator, envisaging the same coming variously described by Malachi, Matthew, and Ezekiel, "and upon the cloud One sat like unto the Son of man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in Thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for Thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And He that sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." Rev. 14:14-16.

This coming of the Son of man is plainly, therefore, not when the resurrected and the living righteous are caught up together to meet Him in the air: for verses 17-20, following the ones quoted in the paragraph above, reveal that after He came and reaped the earth, "another angel...having a sharp sickle" came and reaped a second harvest before the wrath of God -- the seven last plagues (Rev. 15:1) -- was poured out upon the wicked.

Thus again and for the fourth time it is seen that there are two different comings of the Son of man: the one to "sever the wicked from among the just" in the church (Matt. 13:49), and then immediately to call the just from among the wicked in Babylon (Rev. 18:4); the other to take the saints, both the resurrected and the living, to the mansions which He has prepared for them (1 Thess. 4:16; John 14:1-3).

At the former coming of the Son of man, the stone which smote the great image was cut out without hands (without man's aid, and by the Lord Himself) because, as the Lord says, "there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore Mine own arm brought salvation unto Me; and My fury, it upheld Me. And I will tread down the people in Mine anger, and make them drunk in My fury and I will bring down their strength to the earth." Isa. 63:5, 6.

(The Judgment and the Harvest, p.46-47)

GLL wrote: "declare here publicly that you will address each and every question I ask you from now on."

Honestly GLL, I will address ISSUES as I am convicted to address them. There is no way to address all your questions and comments without dissecting the twistings of Houteff's writings, for you are presenting his writings in all your posts and answers, but when I unravel his misuse of EGW's writings and scripture, you will then say I'm "jumping around" and not answering your questions. I have tried, but found my answers are not to your satisfaction, because I can't simply say "yes I agree" or "no I don't agree" thus you would only accuse me again.

However, when I agree with EGW's comments, but disagree with Houteff's use of them, how can I give a blanket answer of "yes, I agree, or no I don't agree". Answering will always lead into different fields, for often Houteff uses quotes dealing with something different to substantiate something he is trying to teach.


It's like this.
When we travel somewhere we need to know where we are going.
Where are Houteff's studies leading us?

You are using Houteff's writings almost exclusively in all your posts. Where is he going? I already know he is leading people to believe Adventism will be destroyed and Shepherd Rod's will take over in their place and lead people to Palestine from which they will safely call the nations to God's kingdom. The terrible persecution of the last days will only fall on those who have not yet reached Palestine and the literal kingdom that Houteff teaches will be established where some anti-typical David will be "king".

The destination point is totally different from what we as Adventists understand from the scriptures and from the writings of Ellen White. It is NOT the teachings of EGW, and using her to give credence to this very different destination point, is not right.

Let's look at the latest Houteff passage which GLL shared.



Let's note several things here:
A. Ezekiel's prophetic message has two applications.
1. The impending destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians
2. The destruction of Jerusalem as a symbol or shadow of the end time destruction upon the world.

B. The four insigna's of lion, eagle, ox and man
These are not limited to execution of judgment. To say that is what they represent is to say God's government is only about destroying people, when in reality God's government is first of all about SAVING people.

The Israelite camp throughout their wilderness journey carried these symbols showing that God was their ruler. Numbers chapter two talks about this as four standards were placed and three tribes camped under each standard. Jewish writings confirm that these standards were -- Lion for Judah, Man's head for Rueben, Ox for Ephraim, and Eagle for Dan.

C. Revelation 4-5 begins with Jesus being exulted as our heavenly high Priest and the work in the heavenly sanctuary beginning. Interestingly Revelation 4 presents a first apartment setting with it's seven lamps and many censors of incense. This inauguration of Christ as our High Priest, and the opening of the sanctuary ministry took place on the day of Pentecost.

Compare this with Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost:
Acts 2.32-33 "This Jesus has God raised up, and has now exalted by His right hand, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Revelation 4 and 5 show Christ being exalted in heaven, His sacrifice declared worthy and acceptable, the work of the sanctuary begun, and THE HOLY SPIRIT given to the church upon earth. The day of Pentecost marked the opening of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary. The first phase of His Priestly ministry had begun in the Holy Place.

Peter revealed this in his sermon in Acts 2:32-33
AA.038.003
Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people.

Conclusion on this Houteff's first paragraph.
He is building a rather shaking base to present his conclusion upon.
The four faces of the cherubim do not necessarily mean execution of judgment -- they accompany God's presence.

2. Ezekiel is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem which is symbolic of the destruction of the world. When Jerusalem was destroyed ALL Jerusalem was destroyed. Only those who had come out were spared.

Ezekiel portrays the removal of God's presence from the Jewish temple where His shekinah glory once abided over the mercy seat.
The picture is that of a loving God loath to leave.
It begins with "one wheel upon the earth" -- 2:15
which the is "Lifted up from the earth" -- 2:19
and "stood over the threshold of the house" --10:4
Next "The glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house" 10:18
"It stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house" 10:19
Then "the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city." 11:22

It is God leaving the sanctuary, leaving the mercy seat, and this results in the destruction of Jerusalem.
They have rejected God and followed idol gods, and the true God is leaving their city.
Yes, it is a symbol of the close of probation when mercy ceases and all people's final destiny is sealed.

Jerusalem's destruction is a symbol of the destruction of the whole world.

When the execution of judgment takes place all the world will be destroyed, only those written in the Lamb's book of life will be spared.
True -- in that destruction those who have lead the people into error and unfitted them to accept redemption will be the first to receive the blow, but there is NO interlude of a peaceful kingdom in between. It all happens after probation has closed for all.

In the next part of Houteff's "study" there is quite a bit of "jumping back and forth" which makes explaining it rather cumbersome -- but I'll try.



This assumes the trumpets follow the seven seals, which I do not agree with. Each of the SEVENS in the first half of Revelation deals with Christ's work in the Holy Place and leads into His work in the Most Holy Place. While the second half of Revelation deals with Christ's work in the Most Holy Place and leads to the full restoration of all things.

When the trumpets are placed after the seals it throws the whole Adventist message off -- you must then accept that the sealing is finished before the 2300 days end and before the Great Disappointment of 1844 and the rise of the Sabbath keeping Adventist church.
Houteff's writings here are in direct conflict with EGW who places the time frame between the sixth and seventh TRUMPET as taking place in the years 1790 - 1844.

The end of the 1260 years and the 2300 years take place between the sixth and seventh trumpets.

So right there Houteff's stepping stones do not work.


The words are true in themselves, however, Houteff means something very different then what we see in scripture.

It's very true that during the pre-Advent judgment the living are to be cleansed of sin. Through the work of the Holy Spirit and submission to God's will their lives are to be purified and cleansed. This is an essential part of the judgment hour message.

Only those thus cleansed and fully committed to God will remain true to God when the crises comes, the rest will be shaken out. They will give up the truths they once knew and join the opposition -- they will join the great ecumenical movement that will present itself as the spiritual solution to earth's problems, and they too will determine those who hold to Adventist message must die.

However, Houteff isn't really talking about that, he is talking about the Adventists who "reject truth" as he sees it, all being killed, (purification by genocide) before the prophesied crises or great time of trouble arrives. Thus in his teachings, the opposition to Houteff's interpretations is done away with, and his followers can supposedly assume the position EGW assigns to the church, and lead people from all nations to Palestine to the supposed temporal kingdom of safety.






Christ's coming suddenly to His temple in Mal. 3:13 refers to the pre-Advent judgment in totality, not to some execution of judgment on the living.

The pre-Advent judgment is all done prior to any execution of judgment.
True, we do not know when probation will close for the living. It will be sudden and final, and thus the message that TODAY is the day of salvation -- do not put it off, is so very, very important.





The earth is to be reaped with the sickle.
The EARTH is not a symbol of the Adventist church.

Revelation 14:14-16 depict the second coming.




Revelation 14:14-16 Describes the second coming.
The whole earth is reaped during these verses.

Revelation 14:17-20 Describes the third coming after the 1000 years, when God's city is upon earth and the wicked dead of all ages are raised and are outside that city. It will be a terrible day for those who find themselves outside the New Jerusalem at that time.

In continuing our study of two close of probations, we will look at Isaiah 66:15-19

"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles."

Here we that a great destruction is set for "many". We notice that this cannot be the end of time for we see that some "escape" and then go out and bring in gentiles from around the world. It is the LORD who does the destroying.

This my brethren is foretelling-- Ezekiel 9 and the after effects. let us be ready . make your election sure, and be so careful not to listen to those whose own knowledge shall someday expose them as nay-sayers of God's true plans. Woe undo them and may God awake them before it is too late!

The half-hour silence shall prove so deadly ( a whole study in itself) for them as they will witness before their eyes what truth they have fought against. The gnashing of teeth shall be unbearable for they will know that they have lost.

Let us now look at more Spirit of prophecy and Scripture for further evidence:

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.

None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ."(2 Selected Messages, p.380)

Let's break this down as God would have us:
1) We see that the remnant church of God (SDA) stands even yet future.
2) The sinners are "sifted" out. The chaff taken from the wheat.
3) This is a 'terrible ordeal". Must take place in order for God to have His pure church. The one spoken of in--

Isaiah 66:19-20- " And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD."


Prophets and Kings, p.725- "Clad in the armor of Christ’s righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners” (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer."

Nahum 1:15 -- "Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off."

Testimonies, vol. 1, p.190 -- Many, I saw, were flattering themselves that they were good Christians, who have not a single ray of light from Jesus. They know not what it is to be renewed by the grace of God.

They have no living experience for themselves in the things of God. And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! (Note this is a clean work to Laodicean Church not world's heathen)

Isaiah 4:3-4 -- "And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning."

Amos 9:1 -- "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."

(Woe unto them who are now saying this very thing! Calling His church judgment (Ezek. 9) as "the evil shall not overtake nor prevent us")

Malachi 3:3 -- "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts."

In studying Isaiah we must again understand that Isaiah is speaking about --
1)The coming destruction to his nation
2)The restoration from captivity (prior to Christ's first coming)
3)To Christ's first coming
4)And to Christ's second coming and the end of the world as we know it.


Multitudes of Christians make the mistake of misapplying these scriptures in Isaiah and other OT prophets, whether they be dispensationalists, futurists, or Shepherd Rod, and also the Marian apparitions.

The common thread running through all these misapplications is the teaching that after major troubles a righteous kingdom will be set up in this present world (usually in Palestine) that will be God's kingdom.

It's THE MAJOR focus of all false prophecy.
Indeed it's the message of the "false prophet" in Revelation.
It's the teaching of an earthly literal kingdom in this present world that will rule over and subdue and convert the nations.
Each one has dire predictions for anyone not looking for this kingdom. And the whole FOCUS of this earthly kingdom is the climax of Satan's ambition to sit as god and be worshipped as God. For it is the false prophet, spiritualism and papal leadership "working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."
Oh they will say they are gathering them into the blessed kingdom, but it NOT God's kingdom.
"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." -- Palestine!!!

Anyone heading to Palestine to find God's kingdom will be terribly deceived for the last plague falls and it is TOO LATE to change kingdoms.


Don't be deceived.
One thing I agree with here -- this is SERIOUS!
Whose kingdom do you want to be in?
The earthly one that will attempt to be established in this present world, but will be destroyed when Christ comes in the clouds of fire and consuming brightness, or wait and be with Christ in heaven for 1000 years before God's kingdom is established on the earth made new?

Seventh-day Adventists stand in direct opposition of such a present earthly kingdom prophecy. We look for no kingdom here in this present world, we are pilgrims here, to point people to Christ and to heaven.

Seventh-day Adventists generally believe the promises and predictions given through the old Testament prophets originally applied to literal Israel and were to have been fulfilled to them on the condition that they obey God and remain loyal to Him.

Thus the texts above first applied to literal Israel that was facing destruction by fire and the sword of the heathen nations around them. The promise was there that even though they would face destruction, God would restore "a remnant". To this remnant Christ would be born to virgin in Bethlehem. And this remnant was to proclaim the news of salvation in Christ to the whole world!

The nations were to come to Israel, like the wise men from the east, to worship the Messiah.

But the restored remnant as a nation did not accept the Messiah, they rejected Him.

Yet, it was Jewish men and woman, (another remnant) that did carry the news of Christ to the then known world. They had accepted Christ, and through them the message was spread everywhere. And we can thank them for their witness of Christ.

And yes, Christ will come again in a fiery cloud with all His angels to execute judgment --
Many will sadly die, consumed by the "swords" of angry mobs who realize they are lost, as well as consumed by the brightness of Christ's coming.





And isn't that what happened? Who was it that went out to the world of Gentiles to spread the gospel message?

In most of the major destructions predicted in the scriptures, God says He will destroy, but it is armies that come and do the destroying. It was the Assyrians that destroyed the Northern kingdom. It was the Babylonians that destroyed Jerusalem, and after the restoration and the national rejection of the Messiah, the Romans came and destroyed it again.

In all those original destructions some escaped and God's message of salvation continued to be given to the world.





Indeed make your calling and election sure --
Your probation could end anytime. Life is uncertain even at the best of times.
But when Ezekiel 9 takes place THERE WILL BE NO MORE PROBATION for anyone. Don't think you can escape and go to some earthly kingdom for safety. There is no earthly kingdom of safety. You're only safety is in Christ.

Another major problem of Shepherd Rod teachings is thinking they need to wait for Ezekiel 9 BEFORE they take the message of salvation to the world. -- Sorry, it will then be TOO LATE, now today, is the time to take the message to everyone who will listen. And that message is NOT about an earthly kingdom, but to resist joining the merging of nations in an earthly kingdom, and walk with Christ our Savior in humble obedience and love.

That is speaking of the shaking.
Very true, trouble will come, the church will break apart, the greater part making peaceful arrangements with the ecumenical powers, and forsaking the truths of Adventism. There will be a HUGE Exodus, out of the Adventist church (and they will take many of the church's assets with them).

It will look like the church is about to fall, but it won't.

We are told:
"Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust, as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe, and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God. 8T 41



But please note --
Adventists teachings do NOT say --
nothing will happen to those who fail to fully commit themselves to Christ,

It is by setting up that straw man that GLL misrepresents Adventist teachings. Indeed those who fail to fully commit themselves to Christ WILL fall in the judgment predicted by Ezekiel -- and as outlined in GC 656

But what Houteff and GLL dismiss is the TESTING TIME.
Before any judgment is executed there will be a TESTING TIME when those who profess to believe the three angel's message will reveal where they actually stand.

That TESTING TIME is the coming of opposition by powerful, legally endorsed religious movements. It will be pressure to join the ecumenical movement under the appearance of bringing the world back to God, and to keep Sunday in honor of Christ's resurrection and salvation, or suffer the severance of economic benefits or worse.

Those who are not fully committed to God and His commandments will be sifted out -- they will join the popular movement and be shaken out of God's commandment keeping church, and they will be busy putting pressure on their "former brethren" to do the same.

A decree will go forth that all who resist the movement and insist on the old Saturday Sabbath must die if peace is to come to the earth.

Yes, those who join that movement will sadly lose out on eternal life, and suffer destruction. Because God reverses that death decree and it will fall upon them, Ezekiel 9 will take place AFTER God delivers his people from death, and reveals His law and pronounces His blessing upon his commandment keeping people during the seventh plague. (See GC 656)

The wicked will be no more during the 1000 years, they will live again for a short space after the 1000 years, and then be cut off forever.

It is a serious thing.
Christ is offering each person eternal life --
Today is the day of salvation, there is no need to be lost.
Accept Him today and live for Him each day.

But Satan is out to deceive and that makes it very important that we do not accept false teachings.

Hold fast to the truth and do not place your hopes in earthly kingdoms or men (even if in glorious form) pretending to be antitypical king Davids.

More on our study --

In Isaiah it is important to realize that much of his writings are projected in the future (our day--the end times), for instance--

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."(Isaiah 2:2-4)

Now anyone with the Spirit of Truth guiding them can see that this is yet future.

1) The mountain of the LORD's house is certainly His church (people)
2) ALL nations shall flow to it. Notice the church has people come unto it. being exalted above all other hills indicates it's power and conquering Spirit that draws the multitudes.
3) They will spread the word that the Lord's house is were they should go and it is found in ZION and "from Jerusalem".
4) War shall be no more in this last day. A time of trouble yet true peace for those who "go up to the Lord's house".

PLEASE watch out for those like Dedication who only want to chop, splice and twist the words of the Lord. She has NO CLUE on the Lord's Elijah message. These people shall soon find out what they have done. God's plans are not mocked, He word shall not return void.

Ok, let's look at the coming of the Lord, back to His temple in heaven that Isaiah saw after the COP for the church.

"Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?

I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

(There is only One mighty to save--Jesus)

Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?

(Blood stained garments!)

I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

(His awful church judgment)

For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

( While it is great and dreadful, the end result is that He now has His--redeemed! Ready to go out and go to work --Loud Cry)

Remember--"only those who overcome in the strength of the 'Mighty one" will be PERMITTED to take part in the Loud CRY (RH, Nov. 19, 1908) People like Dedication think that the bad guys and weak of faith will magically walk out of the SDA church, thereby leaving only the overcomers. What a pee brain idea. let's get real. The current leaders of our church are trying to corrupt it , NOT leave it. so how can the bad guys leave when they are doing what they can to adopt it to the world right now? Is there not corruption coming in left and right and Jesuit infiltration?

There shall be the loosing of the winds AFTER the 144,000 get sealed not before. And we know that those winds are the trouble of the Sunday law (Testimonies, vol.5, p.152) And that Ezek. 9 and the 144,000 sealing is ONE AND THE SAME as Rev. 7 sealings (Test. to MIN. p.445)

The only answer is for the Lord to 'take the reins into His own hands." (Testimonies to Min. p.300)

Further more we are all told that God's sanctuary is the "FIRST" to feel the stroke of God's wrath (Testimonies, vol. 5 ,p.211) If Ezek. 9 takes places during the 7th plague, that is in no way shape or form--First of God's wrath! The mouth sores, the torching heat, etc. are certainly "strokes of God's wrath" and come BEFORE the 7th plague.

As we have often pointed out there appears a double application of Ezek.9 (first is church then world)

May people like Dedication seriously study the following -

"There is to be in the [Seventh-day Adventist] churches a wonderful manifestation of the power of God, but it will not move upon those who have not humbled themselves before the Lord, and opened the door of the heart by confession and repentance.

In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it.

Because the Lord does not work according to their ideas and expectations they will oppose the work. "Why," they say, "should we not know the Spirit of God, when we have been in the work so many years?"--RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890.

The third angel's message will not be comprehended, the light which will lighten the earth with its glory will be called a false light, by those who refuse to walk in its advancing glory."--RH May 27, 1890.

In continuing our study of two probations, one for the church first then another to the world, we'll look at more Scripture.


Jeremiah 23:18-20 --

"For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly."

What do we as Truth seekers to "understand perfectly?" It is His soon to come judgement. It begins in the house of God (NOT world) (1 Peter 4:17)

Those who have diligently searched the Scriptures know that any who say "oh the Lord shall not execute judgment upon His church" shall fall upon the solemn prophetic end result--

Amos 9:9 --

"For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

So that we do not fall for people who say "Oh that was for the old days, the days where God cast upon the Jews in His destructions." Let us see the next verse in Amos for the correct time of this word.

"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."(Amos 9:11-12)

Thus, both, the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy explain that He Himself will purify the church, and that when thus purified "the Gentiles shall see" her "righteousness and all kings" her "glory." Moreover, Christ in the parable explains that it is Satan's determined purpose to sow the tares among the wheat. (Matt. 13:38.)

As the "Blue Sunday Law" is to be enacted by Satan's own will, not by God's, then such a method to purify the church would not only be contrary to every inspired statement but also to Satan's determined purpose, for his aim is not to bring the tares and then pluck them out, but rather to choke out the wheat by their continued presence.

Neither is his intention to fulfill the prophecies, for that is what he would be doing if he should enact blue Sunday laws, but rather defeat them. Therefore, if the church is to be purified by Satan's laws he would be doing the work which God has assigned to His servants and which He is to do Himself.

Is Satan working for God's and His church's interest or against? If against, he will never do one thing to purify the church or to fulfill the prophecy.

The only thing that would compel him to pass blue Sunday laws and
go "to make war with the remnant of her seed" (with those that are left, Rev. 12:17) is the purity of the church when God by the slaughter weapons of Ezekiel Nine takes away the tares which received not the mark, and even then Satan will not enact "blue Sunday laws" until after he has exhausted every other weapon against the church.

Therefore, as long as the church remains in her present Laodicean condition, there will be no blue laws or "war" against her, but a bluff only to make her members believe that they are free from his snares and that he is still trying to cause them to fall.

But the worst of it all is in that they are sound asleep, which is shown by the fact that they still think Satan is working terribly hard to fulfill God's word by trying to pass blue laws and are not aware that he is only playing with them as a cat with a mouse, and the brethren "to whom the Lord has entrusted the spiritual interests of the people" ("Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 5, p. 211) instead of sounding the alarm to arouse the church are determined to even silence the voice of the Rod, and thus rocking her to a more sound sleep! (Sym. Code, vol. 2, no.1, p.9-10)

"Hear ye the Rod, and Whom has appointed it!" (Micah 6:9)

Well, at least you have now shown the texts as to why you believe in the establishment of the 'temporal kingdom" in Jerusalem.
But you do realize these are also the texts the dispensationalists use for their millennial Jerusalem kingdom.

So the subject is not new, for it has been dealt with even years before Houteff tried to bring it into Adventism.
The very foundation of the Millerite Advent movement was in direct opposition to such interpretation of the scripture.

As you know, several centuries before Christ was born in Bethlehem, the Israelite kingdoms were destroyed because of their idolatry and sin. The Northern kingdom by Assyria in 722 BC and the Southern kingdom, 134 years later by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

The prophets like Isaiah had predicted this fall many times, but they also predicted a restoration and a return to their land. These prophecies predicted that the Messiah would come to them, born of a virgin, bringing comfort to Israel, purifying them and that the law was to go to all nations from Jerusalem. As a result, "the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising."
"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD".

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks of years (70 X 7 = 490 years) were given to the restored nation to prepare for the coming of the Messiah. Messiah would come and as the book of Hebrews noted “He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Heb. 9:26) And as Paul wrote; “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself” and “we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son” (2 Cor. 5:19 & Romans 5:10) He would give everlasting righteousness to His followers; “For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him”. (Cor. 5:21)

God fulfilled His promise --
And
Through the prophets He was offering Israel the position to be the example to the world of a nation that accepted the Messiah, and due to this acceptance the blessings of God would be on their nation, and like a light on a mountain all nations would be drawn to God and His covenant.

This is what God was offering to the Jewish people.

But
The Jewish nation as a nation rejected the Messiah. But for another three and half years, the covenant gospel was preached to them with power!
The gospel was to be preached, first to the Jews. It was in Jewish territories that Jesus had preached and healed, and ministered. It was in Jerusalem where He had taught in the temple, and where He was crucified. And there were in Jerusalem and the surrounding areas many who had secretly believed on Jesus, and many who had been deceived by the priests and rulers. To these also the gospel was to be presented. And many did accept Christ, even some of the priests.

Remember God wanted to make Jerusalem the center from which His truths would go forth. But the nation closed the door to God’s invitation. Angered by the many conversions, the leadership brought Stephen, a powerful preacher and deacon of the fledgling church, before the council.

He preached a powerful sermon concerning God's covenantal care for their nation, and how they had rejected Christ the Son of God come down from heaven to them.
And they killed Stephen.

The seventy weeks of years ended in A. D. 34. By the stoning of Stephen the Jews finally sealed their rejection of the gospel; the disciples who were scattered abroad by persecution "went everywhere preaching the word" (Acts 8:4)


The promise that out of Jerusalem would come the gospel truth was still fulfilled, but in a different way.

Paul wrote:
Col. 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister".

The gospel did go out from Jerusalem to the whole world.
And that message will lighten the world -- not now centered in present Jerusalem, but all over the world!

And indeed someday all nations will flow to Jerusalem, but it won't be that old city we see today, it will be the NEW Jerusalem come down from heaven,(Rev 21) the home of the saved, where they will live with Christ forever.

Is Satan working for God's and His church's interest or against? If against, he will never do one thing to purify the church or to fulfill the prophecy?

Satan is working against the church. And he does not change prophecy -- prophecy predicts what he will do through his agents. And he will do what prophecy predicts.

Satan's aim in bringing in mandatory religious legislation is not to purify the church but to destroy it.
It will look like the legislation is purifying the nation of many sinful things, it will look very deceptive.
And many will be destroyed for eternity who fail to realize this will take place.

With great craftiness he is working NOW to erase from people's minds that Sunday will be the test.
He does this in many ways:
1) Majority of Christians now believe the Sabbath was "nailed to the cross" -- it's no longer binding so why would it be a test?
2) Many who do still go to church on Saturday, don't really take the Sabbath too seriously, why would they put their lives on the line for the Sabbath?
3) Bringing in a lot of confusion on datelines, and polar regions to make it seem like nobody can even know when the Sabbath is -- yet the world has no problem knowing when Sunday is! Yet, if people think we don't know anyway, why risk one's life to keep it?
4) Causing people to value ease, more than righteousness.
5) Distracting people with the cares of this life so they won't be anchored in Christ.

Satan has another aim as well--
That is to have the whole world worship him as god.
He has crafted a Christianity of worship that appears to be godly, but is in defiance of God's law. Indeed he will move ahead with his Sunday project, and other projects that will appear to be bringing people back to God, while on the other hand destroying and bringing calamity.


Thus the work is going on NOW as to which side people will be on.

1) The deceptive work, that supposedly will bring peace on earth and unite all people in worship.

2) The purifying work in the hearts of God's people, so they will stand true, no matter how deceptive the counterfeit appears.

The Sunday law brings the great shaking --
it will make a distinct divide.
Then God's people will shine forth.
Inspite of Satan's attempts to totally neutralize the Sabbath/Sunday issue, the Holy Spirit will descend with great power upon God's faithful.

The purifying work must now take place in the hearts of people --
Yes, it is only God that works in us to do this.
And yes, God can and will turn satan's plans to His advantage for those who love and serve Him. He has done this all through history.


The Sunday laws will make it clear who is on what side.
"This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast.... {Mar 164.4}

I had been waiting for the right opportunity to present a "pre-millennial" study and as the doubter--Dedication, has opened this door, let us look at it.

Dedication says, "Well, at least you have now shown the texts as to why you believe in the establishment of the 'temporal kingdom" in Jerusalem. But you do realize these are also the texts the dispensationalists use for their millennial Jerusalem kingdom.

So the subject is not new, for it has been dealt with even years before Houteff tried to bring it into Adventism.The very foundation of the Millerite Advent movement was in direct opposition to such interpretation of the scripture."

First, this is not nearly "all the texts" that show from the WORD of GOD what He will do in the very last days--pre-millennially.

Second, we as SDA firmly know that the Millerite movement was undoubtedly wrong in it's stance on the 1844 date of Christ's coming, so it would be no surprise that it was wrong again on understanding the pre-med phase of His kingdom.

But let's measure this understanding FIRST from the Holy Scriptures and see what His WORD contains. People like Dedication like to use our beloved prophetess Ellen White's writings to overrule Scripture when we are counselled to measure them to the Scriptures. One is to be prominent(Bible) and the other is to secondarily support it (EGW).NOT the Bible is to support EGW. This is very important to firmly get into our mind for understanding CORRECTLY God's WORD.

To be continued shortly--

In "The Great Controversy" page 322-323, we read, "not until the personal advent of Christ can His people receive the kingdom..But when Jesus comes, He confers immortality upon His people; and then He calls them to inherit the kingdom of which they have hitherto been only heirs."

Does this mean undoubtedly and conclusively that the Scriptures do not point to an pre-millenial kingdom? Let us look at the whole subject as SOP counsels us--

"He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and teachable spirit, and all should decide from the weight of evidence." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

"Men, women, and youth, God requires to possess moral courage, steadiness of purpose, fortitude and perseverance, minds that cannot take the assertions of another, but which will investigate for themselves before receiving or rejecting, that will study and weigh evidence, to take it to the Lord in prayer. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (Testimonies vol. 2, p.130)

Report (Part 1 of 2)

Although the doctrine of the Kingdom may not appear quite so complete under the lens of Sister White’s writings as under the lens of the Rod, one dare not thus superficially reject either, but must the more studiously compare both views of the doctrine under the super-lens of the Bible.

He must keep in mind that we are not given license to harmonize the Bible with any other writings, but are charged to measure all others by It.

First of all, in order to do justice to the Scriptures, to Sister White’s writings, and to the Rod the position of each on the subject must be viewed in the light of the Scriptures, which incontrovertibly teach that the Promised Land will be reinhabited by the Lord’s own converted people. (See Isaiah 2; Micah 4; Ezekiel 36, 37; Jeremiah 31-33).

As to Sister White’s statement in The Great Controversy, she is there speaking of the Kingdom complete, after the dead are raised, at the time the saints receive it.

This was the only phase of the subject-the consummate phase that Providence had made known when she wrote. Now as the scroll of prophetic Truth has unrolled further since her day, the Kingdom in reality is seen to have an intermediate, Davidian phase, as well as the final one heretofore known.

(I realize this is quite new to many but stay with us here)

Besides the prophecies relating to the literal---the Davidian---Kingdom, the Bible contains many other prophetic subjects which the writings of Sister White do not even mention, let alone treat of. And if the Lord does not now reveal them to the church to meet her need today, she will not be prepared for their fulfillment, but will be left to perish in her undone Laodicean condition.

These prophecies must therefore be revealed in order to strengthen the church in her final warfare. Otherwise, for what purpose were they written?

No prophet of God has ever forged a complete prophetic chain of events, with no links missing. It has taken many inspired writers to complete the long chain of prophecy. The mind, therefore, which takes the position that Sister White has done what no prophet in or out of the Bible has ever done, does so at the utter disregard of actual Biblical procedure and also of revealed Truth.

She herself says that “no man, however honored of Heaven, has ever attained to a full understanding of the great plan of redemption, or even to a perfect appreciation of the Divine purpose in the work for his own time. Men do not fully understand what God would accomplish by the work which He gives them to do; they do not comprehend, in all its bearings, the message which they utter in His name.”-The Great Controversy, p. 343.

Some persons, being of the parrot kind, utter parrot-like statements, never stopping to think what they say, and seemingly never caring whether their statements stand or fall. Such are they who say that no other event or events can come before, between, or after those set forth in Sister White’s writings.

Should one insist that the continuity of events recorded in Early Writings, pp. 15-17, must be taken as absolute, and that no other event or events can be sandwiched in, then he is getting himself into deep water, for the pages mentioned in no wise even intimate either the seven last plagues or the millennium!

Again: the Jews rejected the Lord because not all of what the prophets taught and wrote was found in the teachings of Moses. “We know,” they said, “that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence He is.” John 9:29.

As no prophet’s writings ever predicted the entire Truth needed by the church to carry her clear through to the Kingdom, and as other prophets followed, either enlarging upon or adding to the prophecies already recorded in the Scriptures, then for anyone to turn down the good tidings of the Kingdom on the grounds that this phase of the Kingdom is not found in Sister White’s writings, is for him to take the same inexcusable and fatal stand as did the Jews.

It is to say, “I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing.” Rev. 3:17. It is this attitude that compels God to spue out of His mouth the lukewarm, satisfied Laodiceans.

The eleventh-hour message has been timed and designed to reveal the Davidian Kingdom rising a new before the appearing of Christ in the clouds. Having no direct light, however on this phase of the Kingdom, The Great Controversy could no more have expressed itself in the definite terms which the message today uses, than could William Miller have expressed himself on the subject of the cleansing of the sanctuary, in such terms as we read in The Great Controversy.

Of necessity, any statements relative to a subject which is still out of sight in the unfolding of the Scroll, are made only in incidental terms of truth as it is at the time seen or commonly understood.

And if the common understanding of these incidental statements be wrong, the writer cannot be held responsible for that which he has borrowed from others or seen but very dimly and therefore expressed very indefinitely.

For example, in Christ’s day “the doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ’s words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed his parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions.

He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all....”---Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 263.

(To be continued in part 2)

Its rather revealing that before the study comes a disclaimer that EGW was given the end time picture. Interesting how first comes the message not to regard EGW's writings pertaining to this subject, but "just the bible" yet GLL gives us Houteff.

Now, I know Houteff has a totally different picture of the endtimes then what EGW presents -- one that is far more to the liking of the human nature.

In short that end time message is -- Adventists who oppose this doctrine, all must die, then through supernatural openings that will open up the middle east, move to Jerusalem and enjoy a wonderful kingdom of peace and safety, from which to send out the message, and to which the world comes to honor it's residents and learn more of their beliefs, it is only those who don't get to Jerusalem in time who will suffer persecution -- all this is to happen before Christ comes.

The Shepherd's Rod people have been taught by Houteff that an antitypical David is going to rule over them in this grand kingdom. This "David", in their belief, is not Jesus Christ as they say the Rod is not Jesus, Jesus is the Branch. Mr. Houteff illustrates it by means Of a drawing of a tree, concerning which he says: "Jesse (the father of David), the rod (David), and the Branch (Christ). The relationship shows that David (the rod) is not Christ (the Branch) . . "-Mount Sion at "the Eleventh Hour" (1941), p45.

So they are looking for a "human" king to rule visibly, while they say Christ rules "invisible" -- basically they are aiming to set up a theocratic type of kingdom in which a human will rule. NOTE: that is uniting church and state!

Yes, they do draw on many OT prophecies made to Israel showing what their nation would have been like had they fully accepted and followed God's covenant and accepted Christ as the Messiah.

Revelation makes it plain that the nations of the world will not be flocking to Jerusalem to find the truth.
It makes it plain they will be following the beast and His image.

Yes, I fully believe there will be supernatural things happening that will create a kingdom in old Jerusalem.
The whole world is being set up for it. Satan's aim is to establish a kingdom where he is worshipped as the true god.
We are told "spiritualism" will be increased -- people who have died will "appear" and urge their followers to come to this kingdom for from it peace will spread to the world.

There are Shepherd's Rod followers that think Houteff will be resurrected as the antitypical David to establish the temporal kingdom (whether GGL believes that or not I don't know) But it doesn't take a lot of wisdom to realize a demon pretending to be Houteff even if he doesn't take the position of David could be a very deceptive devise for those who follow those teachings.

Anyway --
My warning is to stay clear of any kingdom in present day Palestine

Ded-- "Its rather revealing that before the study comes a disclaimer that EGW was given the end time picture."

First we notice that she either knowingly or unknowingly mis-states her first point. The disclaimer is that EGW was "NOT" given the end time picture.

Next we see her classic twistings which are many--

Ded-- "interesting how first comes the message not to regard EGW's writings pertaining to this subject, but "just the bible" yet GLL gives us Houteff.

The first report in no way shape or form asks people to "dis-regard" EGW writings concerning the kingdom. Rather is specifically points out how the Scriptures make plain our subject (pre-mil kingdom) and as such we dare not insert EGW's writings before them to counterdict them.

Ded- "In short that end time message is -- Adventists who oppose this doctrine, all must die, then through supernatural openings that will open up the middle east, move to Jerusalem and enjoy a wonderful kingdom of peace and safety, from which to send out the message, and to which the world comes to honor it's residents and learn more of their beliefs, it is only those who don't get to Jerusalem in time who will suffer persecution -- all this is to happen before Christ comes."

Let's wait and see what the report is about before you jump ahead as you like to do whenever a study is done with brother Houteff.

Ded-- "..basically they are aiming to set up a theocratic type of kingdom in which a human will rule. NOTE: that is uniting church and state!"

How foolish is this statement! NO where in all the Rod does It point to a such a joining of the two! Again she is always ready to pull rabbits out of hats to make her delusional points. Notice no SRod refs to back up this wild claim. Only innuendos.

This is classic Dedication. For example, we clearly showed her in a previous thread that she was slandering brother Houteff by implying that he was responsible for the 1959 fiasco known in Waco as the failed prediction of Ezekiel 9, which drew thousands there only to find out they had lost most everything.

She bears false witness and yet no apology(See Commandment no.9). Inspiration has some pointed testimony for this-

"I have been shown that the greatest reason why the people of God are now found in this state of spiritual blindness is that they will not receive correction." (Test. vol.3, p.255)

Ded--"Yes, they do draw on many OT prophecies made to Israel showing what their nation would have been like had they fully accepted and followed God's covenant and accepted Christ as the Messiah."

Again--false. The report in no way points to conditional promises, which she implies. Carefully look at the report coming and see what the word of God says. Take notice (both in the statement and before and after) whether there are conditions made. In other words, things such as "IF" "POSSIBLY" "MAYBE" or such.

Conditional promises in the Scriptures ( which there were many) ALWAYS have a --"IF" you do this, I will do that. But look at the upcoming references yourself.

Ded-- "Revelation makes it plain that the nations of the world will not be flocking to Jerusalem to find the truth.
It makes it plain they will be following the beast and His image."


False. We will show this is not true. For just one Scripture that negates what she says let us read this prophecy to come--

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:2-3)

When is this to happen? LAST DAYS. Who are they describing? the Jews there now or God's future elect (converted)? Where do they go to get the "law"?

Let no one twist His word, my brothers and sisters, God is not mocked. Be not like those who joined Korah and denied the word from His prophet. The same end will come upon those who deny His word. Oh what unbelief!

Ded--"Yes, I fully believe there will be supernatural things happening that will create a kingdom in old Jerusalem.
The whole world is being set up for it. Satan's aim is to establish a kingdom where he is worshipped as the true god.

We are told "spiritualism" will be increased -- people who have died will "appear" and urge their followers to come to this kingdom for from it peace will spread to the world."

Notice not ONE word of Inspiration is used as her guidance for the Satan kingdom to be set up in Israel. Private words and interpretation ONLY. Show us one Inspired reference that shows Satan will set up a kingdom in Israel. We know that some mis-guided protestants believe this, but I did not know that a SDA buys this baloney also!

Ded-- "There are Shepherd's Rod followers that think Houteff will be resurrected as the antitypical David to establish the temporal kingdom (whether GGL believes that or not I don't know) But it doesn't take a lot of wisdom to realize a demon pretending to be Houteff even if he doesn't take the position of David could be a very deceptive devise for those who follow those teachings."

I do not have enough light in this area to say about VTH. But I can say the we are told by EGW that faitful SDA's will arise to "take up the work once more".

"As the third angel's message swells into a loud cry, great power and glory will attend its proclamation. The faces of God's people will shine with the light of heaven...Let every soldier of the cross push to the front, not in self-sufficiency, but in meekness and lowliness, and with firm faith in God. Your work, my work, will not cease with this life. For a little while we may rest in the grave, but, when the call comes, we shall, in the kingdom of God, take up our work once more." (Testimonies, vol. 7, p.17)

I am sure DED will twist the above to mean working in heaven. But in 'context" that cannot be. it is under the sub-heading "An ever-widening work" that is to be done here on earth.

Ded- "My warning is to stay clear of any kingdom in present day Palestine"

Who are you to warn the people not to investigate this light? If they do then THEY shall decide. let us read a perfect Scripture for her--

"ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." (Luke 11:52)

I didn’t misstate anything there. In your posts you have said EGW was not given the full end time picture, she omitted what Houteff presents as the grand kingdom. Thus in order to present Houteff, you must first make the disclaimer that EGW was given the end time picture.

I know EGW plainly tells us there will be NO kingdom in old Jerusalem.

“Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of the Lord, under the message of the third angel; for those who think that they are yet to go to Jerusalem will have their minds there, and their means will be withheld from the cause of present truth to get themselves and others there. I saw that such a mission would accomplish no real good, that it would take a long while to make a very few of the Jews believe even in the first advent of Christ, much more to believe in His second advent. I saw that Satan had greatly deceived some in this thing and that souls all around them in this land could be helped by them and led to keep the commandments of God, but they were leaving them to perish. I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord.” EW p. 75



So, you agree – this is a Houteff study, not a study of scripture. It is a study of Houteff’s interpretation of scripture. It is not a study of scripture that takes passages in context of their setting, or compares them to the New Testament. It is a study of Houteff’s interpretations.


Foolish? Do you really think so? If you think that is foolish, I’m afraid you are sorely deceived and I pray your eyes will be opened before it is too late.

It is not I that is bearing “false witness” – I am speaking the truth.

Houteff is presenting a KINGDOM and a KING that is to be established in present day Jerusalem.

As I wrote previously:
“The Shepherd's Rod people have been taught by Houteff that an antitypical David is going to rule over them in this grand kingdom. This "David", in their belief, is not Jesus Christ as they say the Rod is not Jesus, Jesus is the Branch. Mr. Houteff illustrates it by means Of a drawing of a tree, concerning which he says: "Jesse (the father of David), the rod (David), and the Branch (Christ). The relationship shows that David (the rod) is not Christ (the Branch) . . "-Mount Sion at "the Eleventh Hour" (1941), p45.

So they are looking for a "human" king to rule visibly, while they say Christ rules "invisible" -- basically they are aiming to set up a theocratic type of kingdom in which a human will rule. NOTE: that is uniting church and state!

And please notice -- in the two paragraphs I wrote in my last post,
I did refer to Houteff’s writings. (That is tract eight if you need the tract #)

It is not I that am presenting “delusions” I am telling you the truth.

It is Houteff that twists scripture – I wish you could see that.

He manages to get humans in the place of Christ in several of his interpretations.

From the same tract #8 Houteff writes:
“Observe that in the message which they "sent after Him," his servants did not say, "We will not have You to reign over us," but rather, "we will not have this man to reign over us." What they objected to was Christ's reigning over them through someone else. Clearly, then, before He is coronated, and prior to His return to reckon with His servants, He appoints a "man" to reign over them in His stead. Whereupon they say to Him, by their attitude and stand toward His message, "We will not have this man to reign over us," although "this man," as we now see, is the antitypical David (the "simple means"), the visible king. "-Mount Sion at "the Eleventh Hour" P. 70

He is plainly using Christ's parable about HIMSELF, and turning it into trying to prove a human person, a man – a human who supposedly is an antitypical David will reign in the kingdom over people. A visible human king, and Christ the invisible king.

He is plainly talking about a king, a kingdom, reigning, a throne etc. etc.
And yes, that is uniting church and state -- a theocracy.

It comes from Houteff’s own words: -- again from tract#8
“as the descendants of Jacob, again becoming a kingdom, appoint to themselves one head (Hos. 1:11), "David their king" (Hos. 3:5), "and seek the Lord their God," it is evident that the church in the time of the Loud Cry of the Third Angel's Message, Will Be A Theocracy. "-Mount Sion at "the Eleventh Hour" p. 42

That is what Houteff teaches, so please don't try to tell people it isn't true.

Ded-I know EGW plainly tells us there will be NO kingdom in old Jerusalem.

Apparently one of my points was missed by Dedication. FIRST and foremost—SCRIPTURE is what we read first regarding our subject. Whether EGW was given this light or not we can then discover by comparing it to Scripture. Time and again she compares Scripture to EGW—Wrong!

I've already made this statement which she has glossed over and ignored--

“But let's measure this understanding FIRST from the Holy Scriptures and see what His WORD contains. People like Dedication like to use our beloved prophetess Ellen White's writings to overrule Scripture when we are counseled to measure them to the Scriptures. One is to be prominent(Bible) and the other is to secondarily support it (EGW).NOT the Bible is to support EGW. This is very important to firmly get into our mind for understanding CORRECTLY God's WORD.”

So what does she do? She begins her criticizm by pointing out first and foremost what EGW says—no kingdom. Instead of waiting to see what God's words says FIRST. The Jews did this SAME procedure! They quoted and believed in Moses first ahead of anything Christ said.

If they had waited to take pains to know what Christ had said, then they would have gone back and seen how Moses' writings fit the word of Christ.But that would have required humility , which proved there downfall.

TO REPEAT-- Bible First—EGW second.

“Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of the Lord, under the message of the third angel; for those who think that they are yet to go to Jerusalem will have their minds there, and their means will be withheld from the cause of present truth to get themselves and others there. I saw that such a mission would accomplish no real good, that it would take a long while to make a very few of the Jews believe even in the first advent of Christ, much more to believe in His second advent. I saw that Satan had greatly deceived some in this thing and that souls all around them in this land could be helped by them and led to keep the commandments of God, but they were leaving them to perish.

I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord.” EW p. 75

Someone already beat her in this specific attempt to use this to dis-prove the pre-mil teachings --

Question No. 43:

How do you reconcile "The Shepherd's Rod" teaching that the Davidian Kingdom is again to be set up in Palestine, with "Early Writings," pp. 75 ,76: "Old Jerusalem never would be built up"?

Answer:

The context of the Early Writings' statement reveals that it refers to the Jewish Zionist Movement, and it shows that the Movement's avowed purpose to re-establish a national Jewish Homeland, centered in Jerusalem proper, will never be realized that never will Old Jerusalem be rebuilt in accordance with the Zionist interpretation, and never will the non-Christian Jews be the subjects of the Kingdom. (See Tract No. 8, Mount Sion at the Eleventh Hour.)

At this point we'd like to point out something important--Please take notice-- She conveniently ignores Truth that she cannot escape from. Notice she made no attempt to address the following--

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 2:2-3)

When is this to happen? LAST DAYS. Who are they describing? the Jews there now or God's future elect (converted)? Where do they go to get the "law"?

Is the above reference one of God's empty promises? Will it return void to the King of the universe?—ask yourselves these important questions.

Ded-So, you agree – this is a Houteff study, not a study of scripture. It is a study of Houteff’s interpretation of scripture. It is not a study of scripture that takes passages in context of their setting, or compares them to the New Testament. It is a study of Houteff’s interpretations.

Of course I make no attempt to hide anything that is written by VTH. His reports have shown great light and as such I am showing what they contain. But be aware that inside his reports are Scriptures that say clear unchangeable things that you cannot twist.

Dedication wants to say this pre-mil idea is Houteff's but we'll see what the 2nd report brings. Honest truth seekers will be “guided into all truth” (John 16:13) if, unlike Dedication, they humble themselves and read the “Thus sayeth the Lord.”

Ded-It is not I that is bearing “false witness” – I am speaking the truth.

I'm afraid your truth and THE TRUTH are two different things. For instance we notice your often taking out of context what the Scriptures, EGW and even myself say. If you will honestly recall I said you bore false witness by implicating Houteff in the 1959 Waco fiasco. I proved to you that VTH was in no way associated with that—Yet you ignored this truth and never apologized. That is –bearing false witness AGAINST your neighbor WITHOUT repentance.

Ded-So they are looking for a "human" king to rule visibly, while they say Christ rules "invisible" -- basically they are aiming to set up a theocratic type of kingdom in which a human will rule. NOTE: that is uniting church and state!

Follow this carefully-- The Word of GOD declares that a future kingdom , and that is a RELIGIOUS one not a WORLDLY one as we know it, is to be set up in Israel. But it does NOT, I repeat NOT join up with any local or country government. But we are getting ahead of the report, so let's see what it says.

Ded-He is plainly using Christ's parable about HIMSELF, and turning it into trying to prove a human person, a man – a human who supposedly is an antitypical David will reign in the kingdom over people. A visible human king, and Christ the invisible king.

You are trying to discuss two areas of this subject at once 1) the identity of the future king to be set up in Israel 2) whether there will be a Theocracy in Israel in the end times.

Our report is focusing on number 2 for now, let's prove that case first then we can discuss “who” if any is identified as the ruler.

Ded-It comes from Houteff’s own words: -- again from tract#8
“as the descendants of Jacob, again becoming a kingdom, appoint to themselves one head (Hos. 1:11), "David their king" (Hos. 3:5), "and seek the Lord their God," it is evident that the church in the time of the Loud Cry of the Third Angel's Message, Will Be A Theocracy. "-Mount Sion at "the Eleventh Hour" p. 42

Instead of purposeful isolation and skewed analysis given by Dedication here, look at the full report in Tract 8 for yourself. Tract 8

Also take note-- She ignored another request --

"Show us one Inspired reference that shows Satan will set up a kingdom in Israel". She likes to, as I have pointed many times, make points and statements from a pure private interpretation standpoint.This is VERY important to know, if Satan will set up a kingdom in Israel in last days. So let's back that up!!

Ded-That is what Houteff teaches, so please don't try to tell people it isn't true.

Let's see if the report tries to exalt a man (Houteff) or Bible Truth.


Some applicable quotes --

“We should not study the Bible for the purpose of sustaining our preconceived opinions, but with the single object of learning what God has said.” (Test. To Min. p.105)

“Some have feared that if in even a single point they acknowledge themselves in error, other minds would be led to doubt the whole theory of truth.” (Ibid. p.105)

“Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it.

So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.(Ibid, p.106)

“Suppose a brother held a view that differed from yours, and he should come to you, proposing that you sit down with him and make an investigation of that point in the Scriptures; should you rise up, filled with prejudice, and condemn his ideas, while refusing to give him a candid hearing? The only right way would be to sit down as Christians and investigate the position presented in the light of God's word, which will reveal truth and unmask error.

To ridicule his ideas would not weaken his position in the least if it were false, or strengthen your position if it were true. If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation,it is time that we knew it. There must be no spirit of Pharisaism cherished among us.” (Ibid, p.107)

Can Dedicaton explain what the following means? Did it ever occur to her that this “Rod” might speak? What Rod in our SDA history has spoken? Does the Lord appoint it or not?

Hear ye the rod and Who has appointed it? (Micah 6:9)

ADDRESSING EGW ISSUES RAISED

Originally Posted By: Godsloveandlaw

Ded-I know EGW plainly tells us there will be NO kingdom in old Jerusalem.

Apparently one of my points was missed by Dedication. FIRST and foremost—SCRIPTURE is what we read first regarding our subject. Time and again she compares Scripture to EGW

And my point was that first you must push EGW aside so you can present Houteff's interpretations. For time and time again, continually, you base everything on HOUTEFF.

You even end your posts implying that the Biblical use of the word "rod" somehow refers to Houteff's interpretations and place him on par as the scriptures.

On another thread you placed him as the sole authority on interpreting scripture --

Originally Posted By: GLL

One is to be prominent(Bible) and the other is to secondarily support it (EGW).NOT the Bible is to support EGW. This is very important to firmly get into our mind for understanding CORRECTLY God's WORD.”

So why are all your posts HOUTEFF's interpretation of the Bible?

Originally Posted By: GLL

Instead of waiting to see what God's words says FIRST. The Jews did this SAME procedure! They quoted and believed in Moses first ahead of anything Christ said.

Ah-- yes -- and Houteff is following the same procedure as the Jews, quoting the prophets who wrote more than six centuries before Christ, and not basing it on what the NEW Testament says.

Originally Posted By: GLL

Originally Posted By: EGW

I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord.” EW p. 75

Someone already beat her in this specific attempt to use this to dis-prove the pre-mil teachings --

Question No. 43:

How do you reconcile "The Shepherd's Rod" teaching that the Davidian Kingdom is again to be set up in Palestine, with "Early Writings," pp. 75 ,76: "Old Jerusalem never would be built up"?

Answer:

The context of the Early Writings' statement reveals that it refers to the Jewish Zionist Movement, and it shows that the Movement's avowed purpose to re-establish a national Jewish Homeland, centered in Jerusalem proper, will never be realized that never will Old Jerusalem be rebuilt in accordance with the Zionist interpretation, and never will the non-Christian Jews be the subjects of the Kingdom. (See Tract No. 8, Mount Sion at the Eleventh Hour.)

I've read Houteff's rebuttal before. However, there are two points that show it doesn't answer the question.
1. There is absolutely no mention of a "Zionist movement" nor is there a reference to the Jews needing to go to Jerusalem in her remarks.
2. A national homeland for the Jewish people has been established in Palestine.

Both prove she was NOT speaking of the Zionist movement, or about a call to Jewish people to go to Jerusalem, but rather she is talking about the aims of some of the ADVENTIST people who thought they needed to go over to Jerusalem, convert the Jews living there and establish something. And knowing the missionary mindedness of Adventists they were not against sending missionaries either, so it couldn't be that either. This was a heresy (their word) after the similitude of Houteff, teaching that the Advent people had to go to old Jerusalem.

James White wrote in the Review Oct. 7, 1851 addressing the same situation EGW was addressing;
He wrote while reporting on a meeting of the brethren:

"The Holy Spirit was gloriously poured out, and all were blest, strengthened, and cheered on their way to the Golden City, the Heavenly Jerusalem. The distracting, unprofitable views relative to Old Jerusalem and the Jews, &c., that are afloat at the present time, were not mentioned during the meeting.
No one present, to our knowledge, has anything to do with
them. The Jerusalem "above" and "free," is that which
interests us. On that we dwell with pleasure, unity of sentiments, and profit. " Blessed," says the True Witness,
Jesus, " are they that do his (the Father's ten commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life, and may
enter in through the gates into the City." Rev, xxii, 14.
We wish here to state that we as a people have no confidence
in the strange notions, that some have run into, that
the saints have yet to go to Old Jerusalem, &c., &c. Brethren beware of such heresies."


[b]ADDRESSING KINGDOM ISSUES



The important point may be your utter impatience and arrogance.

Indeed I started to answer, but put it aside to enjoy the Sabbath day in worship and fellowship with other believers.

Also notice the shift GLL takes in his response to my first statement:

Did he negate what I said, that REVELATION makes it plain that the nations of the world will not be flocking to old Jerusalem to find the truth?
That Revelation makes it plain they will be following the beast and His image.

He wasn't quoting from Revelation, he is quoting from Isaiah who wrote before the first destruction of Jerusalem and was presenting what God wanted Jerusalem to be when the Messiah came to them.

The words last days = don’t necessarily mean our time, they simply mean “last days”.

Hebrews 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.

So it can also refer to the “last days” of a period of time -- like the allotted 490 years given to the nation to prepare for the coming Messiah.

Indeed if in the last days of the 490 years, when the Son of God was walking on the dusty roads of Palestine, and confirming the covenant with the Jewish people, had the nation accepted Christ as their Messiah, they would have been a light to the world to all nations.

But in spite of the national rejection of Christ, the LORD’S word did go forth from Jerusalem to all the world, as the followers of Christ (Jewish men and women) went forth carrying the gospel.

And the prophecy will be fulfilled again in completeness, when the NEW Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and all the saved nations will go to that great city to worship and learn more about God.

As Revelation points out concerning the NEW Jerusalem --

Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."



The focus of some kind of righteous kingdom in old Jerusalem prior to God making all things new, is not Houteff's idea -- it's been around long before Houteff came on the scene.

Variations of it were there in EGW's time, it's nothing new. Houteff just tailored it to deceive Adventists.





As far as the disastrous results of people who have accepted Houteff's teachings -- you have NOT proved at all that his teachings had nothing to do with it.
I said Florence set the date after V. Houteff died, it was not Houteff who set the date. And you can only prove that Florence set the date, not Houteff, which I said from the beginning.
There is absolutely no false witness there.

You weren't there when Houteff and his wife discussed prophecies together. It's only your word against others who were there. You have chosen to slander Florence to vindicate V.Houteff, that's your problem, not mine. At least she saw the light of the errors into which she was indoctrinated and realized where those beliefs were leading her.




It matters not that it isn't joining a local government. Their aim is to set up a KINGDOM in which rulership and religion is merged. That is a combination of state and religion.
They don't plan on joining a local government they plan to BE the local government. What do you think a kingdom and a king does? A king that rules on throne.



It is one and the same subject.
Houteff plainly says the antypical David is not Christ, that he is the visible king, while Christ is the invisible king and that this is a theocracy.



You are following the counsel that other Shepherd Rod people were given.
They KNOW there is a problem with this set up that just does NOT mesh with truth, so the idea is -- first indoctrinate the people on the kingdom idea, then introduce this king to them.

Sort of like putting blinders on the people so they can't see where they are going.

And indeed Satan will set up a counterfeit kingdom -- it's a whole study in itself.

Just a note on the conditions behind EGW's comment in Early Writings page 75.
In studying further as to just what was being circulated in 1851 concerning Jerusalem, that EGW and her husband wrote against -- it was called the "age to come", and was promoted (not by the small group of Sabbath keeping Adventists) but by some of their former associates in the Millerite movement (also called Adventists) They had a paper called, "Advent Harbinger". This particular message was urging Adventists to go to Jerusalem to start tilling the soil to bring life to the "land" and converting Jews, all in preparation to have a "remnant" gathered there to welcome the returning Messiah to His capital, preparatory to the complete restoration and a millennial kingdom centered in "old" Jerusalem.

(Too tired to write more tonight -- later)

Ded- And my point was that first you must push EGW aside so you can present Houteff's interpretations. For time and time again, continually, you base everything on HOUTEFF.

You even end your posts implying that the Biblical use of the word "rod" somehow refers to Houteff's interpretations and place him on par as the scriptures.

No one is “pusing aside” EGW. Our subject is the pre-mil kingdom and the very first quote you use to deny that was a taken out of context EGW quote. As far as the “rod” we'll get to that at end of this response.

Ded- On another thread you placed him as the sole authority on interpreting scripture --

False. That thread was based on Zech. 4 , of which obviously you failed to grasp its meaning. Those such as Dedication , being stuck on “milk” of the word, can in no way see the “meat”, the deeper things of the Lord.

“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.” (Isaiah 28:9)



Originally Posted By: GLL
One is to be prominent(Bible) and the other is to secondarily support it (EGW).NOT the Bible is to support EGW. This is very important to firmly get into our mind for understanding CORRECTLY God's WORD.”

Ded- So why are all your posts HOUTEFF's interpretation of the Bible?

First, not “all” my posts are VTH. Second, you obviously deny that the Lord would send a “male prophet” to His people (SDA church) right before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. I shall NOT deny that and post what I and many others believe are the words of that prophet. If you don't believe it—that's your problem. The Lord shall do as His word says—And all we can say is--Amen!

Originally Posted By: GLL
Instead of waiting to see what God's words says FIRST. The Jews did this SAME procedure! They quoted and believed in Moses first ahead of anything Christ said.

Ded-Ah-- yes -- and Houteff is following the same procedure as the Jews, quoting the prophets who wrote more than six centuries before Christ, and not basing it on what the NEW Testament says.

False. Houteff wrote quite alot on NT.Again, as we went over this before , you admitted that you have not read much of the Rod. Clearly that is evident by your comments and false interpretations of the Rod.


Ded-Both prove she was NOT speaking of the Zionist movement, or about a call to Jewish people to go to Jerusalem, but rather she is talking about the aims of some of the ADVENTIST people who thought they needed to go over to Jerusalem, convert the Jews living there and establish something. And knowing the missionary mindedness of Adventists they were not against sending missionaries either, so it couldn't be that either.

GSL-- Regardless of our different interpretations of EW p. 75, the SCRIPTURES are what we will search out first and foremeost. As far as “Houteff” teaching that the Advent people “must” go to Jerusalem. Let's see what the word of God says about that–which is quoted by Houteff through out his reports.

Ded-James White wrote in the Review Oct. 7, 1851 addressing the same situation EGW was addressing;
He wrote while reporting on a meeting of the brethren:

"The Holy Spirit was gloriously poured out, and all were blest, strengthened, and cheered on their way to the Golden City, the Heavenly Jerusalem. The distracting, unprofitable views relative to Old Jerusalem and the Jews, &c., that are afloat at the present time, were not mentioned during the meeting.
No one present, to our knowledge, has anything to do with
them. The Jerusalem "above" and "free," is that which
interests us. On that we dwell with pleasure, unity of sentiments, and profit. " Blessed," says the True Witness,
Jesus, " are they that do his (the Father's ten commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life, and may
enter in through the gates into the City." Rev, xxii, 14.
We wish here to state that we as a people have no confidence
in the strange notions, that some have run into, that
the saints have yet to go to Old Jerusalem, &c., &c. Brethren beware of such heresies."

This is supporting EGW, and we see that she was against the people going to Jerusalem to convert the Jews. Regardless, Scripture is first and foremost explanation of our topic and nothing is going to change that.

[b]ADDRESSING KINGDOM ISSUES

Originally Posted By: GLL
At this point we'd like to point out something important--Please take notice-- She conveniently ignores Truth that she cannot escape from. Notice she made no attempt to address the following--

Ded-Indeed I started to answer, but put it aside to enjoy the Sabbath day in worship and fellowship with other believers.

Also notice the shift GLL takes in his response to my first statement:
Originally Posted By: GLL
Originally Posted By: dedication
"Revelation makes it plain that the nations of the world will not be flocking to Jerusalem to find the truth.
It makes it plain they will be following the beast and His image."

There was no “shift” lol. I saw your comment. The point of the report is to establish the kingdom with both the OT and yes, Revelation where it does make mention of the kingdom in Israel. Patience.

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:2-3)

Ded- Did he negate what I said, that REVELATION makes it plain that the nations of the world will not be flocking to old Jerusalem to find the truth?
That Revelation makes it plain they will be following the beast and His image.

Yes Revelation speaks much of the beast(s) but we'll see if Rev. mentions the kingdom in Israel.

Let's keep in mind this very important promise by Inspiration--

"That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today." (Prophets and Kings, p.713)

Meaning that each and every promise that was not conditional--to Israel-- will be accomplished by His CHURCH today (shortly).

Ded- He wasn't quoting from Revelation, he is quoting from Isaiah who wrote before the first destruction of Jerusalem and was presenting what God wanted Jerusalem to be when the Messiah came to them.

A conditional promise? Let's look again at that reference.

Ded-The words last days = don’t necessarily mean our time, they simply mean “last days”.

Hebrews 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.

Ded-So it can also refer to the “last days” of a period of time -- like the allotted 490 years given to the nation to prepare for the coming Messiah.

This is where you are missing the “context” of what was said-

Notice:
1) The “last days” are in the time where God's people (church) shall be established above ALL OTHER people-churches. And how many nations shall flow to it? ALL. Obviously this is a world wide flowing(verse 2)
2) The people will “go up” to the “house of the God of Jacob.” Meaning they will flock to CHRIST's House-- Where is that?-- ZION. And what is the prupose? God holy law will be taught FROM THERE.Has that happened yet? NO!(verse 3)

So clearly the description of “last days” has to be connected to the REST OF THE TEXT. Dedication wants to strip and separate “last days” from the passage, Something we find her doing time and again.

Ded- Indeed if in the last days of the 490 years, when the Son of God was walking on the dusty roads of Palestine, and confirming the covenant with the Jewish people, had the nation accepted Christ as their Messiah, they would have been a light to the world to all nations.

Nice try with your if and buts. This Isaiah word and promise is definite --not maybe or a we'll see prediction.

Again let's repeat it--

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Now if Dedication was speaking truth, it would say “..mountian of the LORD'S house MAY be established... and all nations MIGHT flow unto it, etc. if her idea that Isaiah's prediction was predicated on the Jews accepting Christ!

See how ridiculous Dedication mocks and distorts God's word? She is, and this is serious before my Lord, placing her private interpretations ABOVE God's direct word! Wow! May God help her!

Ded- But in spite of the national rejection of Christ, the LORD’S word did go forth from Jerusalem to all the world, as the followers of Christ (Jewish men and women) went forth carrying the gospel.

Yes it did, but that is totally different than what God's word says in Isaiah. The people (all nations) did not flock to God's house in Jerusalem in Christ's day (the apostate Jews controlled Jerusalem), rather the law(His word) went out to all nations.The key of this promise being all nations going up to Jerusalem in last days to get the law (word) FROM ZION.

Ded- And the prophecy will be fulfilled again in completeness, when the NEW Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and all the saved nations will go to that great city to worship and learn more about God.

As Revelation points out concerning the NEW Jerusalem --

Quotes--Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."

Now, let me understand this. You say that Isaiah's prediction will be fulfilled in this “New Jerusalem” time. You mean that when the New Jerusalem comes down there will be existing nations that will come up to Zion? The city descends upon an inhabited world?

Makes no sense at all—Why? Because this obviously cannot be in the “last days” because we read in REV. 21:1 –
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”

The NEW earth is not the LAST DAYS—let's get real! Like I said "pulling rabbits out of hats".


Originally Posted By: GLL
Dedication wants to say this pre-mil idea is Houteff's but we'll see what the 2nd report brings. Honest truth seekers will be “guided into all truth” (John 16:13) if, unlike Dedication, they humble themselves and read the “Thus sayeth the Lord.”

Ded-focus of some kind of righteous kingdom in old Jerusalem prior to God making all things new, is not Houteff's idea -- it's been around long before Houteff came on the scene.

Variations of it were there in EGW's time, it's nothing new. Houteff just tailored it to deceive Adventists.

Again, let's see what Houteff brings to the table, what Scriptures he brings.

Originally Posted By: GLL
I'm afraid your truth and THE TRUTH are two different things. For instance we notice your often taking out of context what the Scriptures, EGW and even myself say. If you will honestly recall I said you bore false witness by implicating Houteff in the 1959 Waco fiasco. I proved to you that VTH was in no way associated with that


Ded-As far as the disastrous results of people who have accepted Houteff's teachings -- you have NOT proved at all that his teachings had nothing to do with it.

let's bring back that thread, and see.. I pointed out that no where in all his writings did he ever write about a certain date that Ezek. 9 would occur. I asked you to provide anything along those lines, you could not.

Ded-I said Florence set the date after V. Houteff died, it was not Houteff who set the date.
And you can only prove that Florence set the date, not Houteff, which I said from the beginning.
There is absolutely no false witness there.

Bring back that thread and we;ll show how you clearly implied it was VTH's doing that cause the 1959 fiasco.

Ded-you weren't there when Houteff and his wife discussed prophecies together. It's only your word against others who were there.

Yes, there were others there and even a living witness to those who were there and heard what was said on the supposed talk the night before VTH died, cleared him. Even Florence gave a true account in the Codes about what transpired that night. Again saying VTH mentioned no dates.But this is secondary, all one has to do is go to his writings and ,as mentioned, not one written statement points to any date for Ezek. 9 fulfillment in those days (late 50's)


Ded-You have chosen to slander Florence to vindicate V.Houteff, that's your problem, not mine.

Slandered her? Give clear evidence.


Ded-At least she saw the light of the errors into which she was indoctrinated and realized where those beliefs were leading her.

LOL, You go from bad to worse. Right here with this statement you show how little you really now about Flornence, Victor, or the message. You have what is called a perfect—TRIFECTA.

Florence Houteff was a deluded person, infact she went practically apostate after HER failed prediction that caused the 1959 fiasco. She declared that Ellen White was a false prophet, even denied her husband and said only apostle Paul's writings were true! There are witnesses that attest to this (some still living).

Learn some history before you speak and deceive the people, ok?

Also, you showed you keep good records by pulling up that thread where I said Houteff was the “sole” interpreter of Scriptures, why don't you pull up the thread where we discussed what we said about this (Florence and the 1959 fiasco). Then we'll see the real deal, ok?


Originally Posted By: GLL
Ded-So they are looking for a "human" king to rule visibly, while they say Christ rules "invisible" -- basically they are aiming to set up a theocratic type of kingdom in which a human will rule. NOTE: that is uniting church and state!

Follow this carefully-- The Word of GOD declares that a future kingdom , and that is a RELIGIOUS one not a WORLDLY one as we know it, is to be set up in Israel. But it does NOT, I repeat NOT join up with any local or country government. But we are getting ahead of the report, so let's see what it says.


Ded-It matters not that it isn't joining a local government. Their aim is to set up a KINGDOM in which rulership and religion is merged.

Ok, let's use Dedications logic here. So in king David's and Solomon's time where rulership and religion was formed together, was that a uniting of “church-state” ? Or was that what is known as a pure “Theocracy”?


Ded- They don't plan on joining a local government they plan to BE the local government. What do you think a kingdom and a king does? A king that rules on throne.

The word “government” is not exclusive to a heathen rulership. Governments can exist such as Saul, David, and Solomon's time. No heathen connection at all. You are limiting the word government.


Originally Posted By: GGL
You are trying to discuss two areas of this subject at once 1) the identity of the future king to be set up in Israel 2) whether there will be a Theocracy in Israel in the end times.

Ded- It is one and the same subject.

Like I said , there are different aspects here, and I will show the kingdom first , then we can talk about the “king”.

Houteff plainly says the antypical David is not Christ, that he is the visible king, while Christ is the invisible king and that this is a theocracy.


Originally Posted By: GLL
Our report is focusing on number 2 for now, let's prove that case first then we can discuss “who” if any is identified as the ruler.

Ded-You are following the counsel that other Shepherd Rod people were given.
They KNOW there is a problem with this set up that just does NOT mesh with truth, so the idea is -- first indoctrinate the people on the kingdom idea, then introduce this king to them.

False. We know what is truth and the Scriptures do not lie. It is you who shall prove false and confused. i personally do not 'follow" anyone or thing but the TRUTH, and Christ is the TRUTH through His word.

Ded-And indeed Satan will set up a counterfeit kingdom -- it's a whole study in itself.

Listen, I am not asking to see a 'whole study”, just give us a quote that says Satan will set up a kingdom in Israel in the last days. People are not stupid Dedication, you made a ridiculous claim. Do not run and hide, simply show it or admit you don't have one.

Lastly, you ignored the Rod quote and question. Are you going to tell us what "you" think it means? The one who thinks she knows the Rod and the history.

"Hear ye the Rod and Who has appointed it?"(Micah 6:9)

The Rod not only is to be heard but it feeds us as well--

"Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old." (Micah 7;14)

Now you have two inspired Rod references that the LORD said we are to hear and feed on. And no, Victor Houteff did not write these quotes in Bible, God did!

Maybe we are to get a rod like Moses had and sit down and listen to it then when we are hungry take a bit out of it and eat it.

Interesting how you like to accuse others of "bearing false witness" when you do so yourself.

You said I gave no reference when I showed Houteff's presentation of the tree where the antitypical David who is to be king was said not to be Christ -- when there was reference -- tract and page number. (Tract #8) Taken right from his writings!!!! And yes, I read the whole tract!
When I pointed out my reference -- no apology only more attacks against me as a person.

Now you falsely say:
I admitted that I have not read much of the Rod.

When did I admit that? I said I had read quite a lot of Houteff's writings and even gave titles of his pamphlets. It was you that twisted that into saying I hadn't read much!!!
I think it's because I HAVE read much of his messages and see error in them that you must now attack me as a person.

The case of Florence is a sad one indeed.
First off she was very young and impressionable when she married a self proclaimed prophet. She was 18, I believe, while V. Houteff was 50. From all reports she fully supported and followed her husband throughout their 20 years or so of married life. When he died, her concern was to keep the movement going. Some criticize her for calling the leading people together to discuss what to do next too soon after Houteff's death, but I'm sure she was most worried about the movement, because she fully believed in it and wanted it to stay on track.

Yes, as time continued and she was forced to match the teachings with scripture herself, she saw the light in the error of Houteff's writings, yet so often when a person who has basically given their life to a cause, then sees they were deluded, they end up giving up everything.
Houteff weaves EGW in and out of his writings in a most out of context manner, that when a Houteff believer is convinced of Houteff's errors, and they see the contradictions between Houteff and EGW they may well end up throwing out the whole package.

Dedication wrote: And the prophecy will be fulfilled again in completeness, when the NEW Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and all the saved nations will go to that great city to worship and learn more about God.


As Revelation points out concerning the NEW Jerusalem --

Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."

GLL writes: Now, let me understand this. You say that Isaiah's prediction will be fulfilled in this “New Jerusalem” time. You mean that when the New Jerusalem comes down there will be existing nations that will come up to Zion? The city descends upon an inhabited world?

MY ANSWER:
No, I'm not saying that the earth was inhabited DURING the 1000 years.

Scripture says in speaking of the NEW JERUSALEM COME DOWN
Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."

Are you saying John the Revelator is saying the earth was inhabited during the 1000 years?

And yes, in the New Earth the saved from every nation, tribe and tongue will inhabit the earth. They will gladly come to the New Jerusalem to worship God and learn more about salvation.
The study of God's salvation will be looked into by the saints for eternity -- we don't half understand it now.

There is nothing foolish in Johns depiction of all the nations of the saved coming to Jerusalem.

All nations --- ALL --
That will never happen before Christ's coming -- all nations aren't going to flowing into old Jerusalem to learn truth, for Revelation makes it plain the nations and kings will be fighting against God right up to the time Christ appears in the clouds of glory with the "armies" of heaven.

They want their own version of a kingdom -- they are fighting against Christ and His kingdom.

As to the quote in Isaiah 2

There are "if" and the context.

Isaiah 1:18-20 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Then in the next chapter



So IF they would have been willing during the 490 years to cleanse their lives and prepare for the coming of the Messiah, and accept HIM -- then yes, their city would have been the light to world to which nations would come to find truth.

But they didn't -- and so war continues.

And Revelation shows us that in the last days the nations have NOT turned their instruments of war into peaceful utensils.

For:
Rev.17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb,
Rev. 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle
Rev. 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Dedication-It matters not that it isn't joining a local government. Their aim is to set up a KINGDOM in which rulership and religion is merged.

GLL: Ok, let's use Dedications logic here. So in king David's and Solomon's time where rulership and religion was formed together, was that a uniting of “church-state” ? Or was that what is known as a pure “Theocracy”?

MY ANSWER:
It was the uniting of church and state, it was not God's original plan, -- and it was NOT a pure theocracy. Solomon led the Israelites into idolatry with all his heathen wives. Most of Isreal's kings were trouble as far as serving the Lord in purity and truth was concerned.


Dedication wrote- They don't plan on joining a local government they plan to BE the local government. What do you think a kingdom and a king does? A king that rules on throne.

GLL wrote: The word “government” is not exclusive to a heathen rulership. Governments can exist such as Saul, David, and Solomon's time. No heathen connection at all. You are limiting the word government.

MY ANSWER:
Government can be "heathen" or "religious" -- actually it's the religious governments that can be the most dangerous to people who seek to follow God according to their conscience. The last day "theocracy" predicted in Revelation, will be very religious, getting the whole world to worship the dragon, the beast and his image, but it will be persecuting and killing God's true people.

The problem lies in thinking one is following God, when in reality following an other spirit. There is absolutely no guarantee that the so called antitypical David who assumes kingship authority is in connection with the right spirit.

in fact -- anyone assuming that kind of authority is over stepping their place.

Lean not on the arm of flesh -- is especially true as we face all the delusions of Satan in the last days as he makes his last desperate attempt to have the whole world worshipping him.

GLL -- Again saying VTH mentioned no dates-----

You sure love to ride that accusation don't you --
Yet, you are falsely accusing me.
Nowhere have I said that Houteff set the date. == NO WHERE.


What I did write was from the Symbolic Code #11
Which is now no where to be found on the internet, though I searched for considerable time.

In that code it was written that
Houteff "expressed the definite conviction that the time prophecy of Revelation 11:2-12 and Daniel 12:6,7 could have met their fulfillment only in type from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and that they have a latter-day fulfillment. "-The Symbolic Code, vol. 11, no. 1, p. 3

According to this he expressed the 538-1798 was a type of something yet future. Upon this Florence and her council decided on a date. They set the date, not V. Houteff.

I still think he very well could have called that time period a "type" and I went into considerable trouble showing you that Houteff used the 1260 as a type in another study. (again not mentioning any dates, -- but still using them as a type of something yet future)

As I said -- all you can prove is that V. Houteff did not mention any dates -- and I never said he set a date.
So your riding this horse to try and prove I'm spreading some kind of falsehood is your "bearing false witness" not mine.

GLL wrote:

No one is “pushing aside” EGW. Our subject is the pre-mil kingdom and the very first quote you use to deny that was a taken out of context EGW quote."

--The quote was NOT out of context -- it is very applicable to the situation under study.
The principle stated in that quote is applicable today!




Sure the situation was somewhat different when she wrote this -- The supposition then being pushed by some Adventists (former associates of SDA pioneers during the Millerite movement) promoting a message that was to get people to go over to Jerusalem and start tilling the soil "showing God's favor had returned to the land" and start converting some Jews, so there would be a community there - a remnant, to welcome the coming of the Messiah when He returned to His capital city.

However the sentence:
"some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem, and think they have a work to do there before the Lord comes"

Do Houteff's teachings believe it is the duty of God's people to go to Old Jerusalem because they have a work to do there before the Lord comes?

If GLL is honest he will say "yes" -- for that is what is being taught by SR that the "true" Adventists need to go to Jerusalem at some point, and then the last message is to go out from old Jerusalem.

How about two other sentences --
"I saw that Satan had greatly deceived some in this thing and that souls all around them in this land could be helped by them and led to keep the commandments of God, but they were leaving them to perish."

The SR think the time has not come to share the gospel news and the soon coming of the Lord with people all around them. They believe their mission is to convince Seventh-day Adventists on the "kingdom in Jerusalem" message, and if they don't believe that they have to be slaughtered first, before the message can go to the rest of the world.

Jesus has commissioned us to bring the message of the gospel to the world. Of course we are to share with church members as well. Of course we need to teach repentance and recommitment to more fervent love to Christ and the truth and rise above the "lukewarm" condition and be on fire for the Lord, but that includes, not blocks the witnessing to all around us. The time to take the message to the world is NOW.

There won't be any sweet, safe Kingdom sometime in the future to finally start sharing the gospel with others.

And how about the sentence:
"I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up;"

Houteff writes it off as EGW talking about some movement not building up Jerusalem --
saying she didn't understand, etc. etc.

What part of NEVER do they not understand?
God showed her Jerusalem would NEVER be built up.
God doesn't give us truth and then turn around and uproot it for something else.

Now there is a lot of building going on over there. Jews have returned to their homeland -- so what did God show her?
It seems plenty clear that she was referring to OLD JERUSALEM will never be built up as the "city of God".

The bulk of writings are clear --
Old Jerusalem is NOT to be rebuilt as God's city --
It may well be rebuilt to fill a counterfeit role, but NEVER as God's city.

We are to look to the heavenly Jerusalem.
The promises of the inheritance will be fulfilled in NEW JERUSALEM!

You will notice in Revelation there are only TWO cities that get written on people's foreheads.

The counterfeit city of Babylon that is bound for destruction
OR
The heavenly city -- God's city-- The New Jerusalem!

Revelation 3:12 "I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God"

" the 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious Star containing Jesus' new name." EGW Daystar Jan. 1846

That's the city we long to be citizens of -- the New Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Gal 4:25;.Jerusalem which now is, is in bondage with her children.
4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Many, many people in this world will be deceived by the "old Jerusalem" kingdom theories that abound in various forms in many different belief systems,

DedYou said I gave no reference when I showed Houteff's presentation of the tree where the antitypical David who is to be king was said not to be Christ -- when there was reference -- tract and page number. (Tract #8) Taken right from his writings!!!!

Can you post where I said these things? Show us this.

Ded-The case of Florence is a sad one indeed.

Yes, and we know that Christ said that we shall be guided into ALL truth (John 16:13) so obviously the spirit that was guiding her was not the Lord! Else why would she deny sister White as inspired? Interestingly she later married a man, who we as present truth believers believe, was a sign from the Lord, whose last name was --AIKEN (pronounced as ACHAN). Does that ring a bell? (Joshua 7:13-24)

Bottom line --- her validation of denying brother Houteff's message means --nothing.

Ded- I said I had read quite a lot of Houteff's writings and even gave titles of his pamphlets. It was you that twisted that into saying I hadn't read much!!!

Well now , a little passionate about being short in studying the Rod? Listen brother Houteff runs circles around you and yet you claim to know what he wrote. Here's how we know you are not right. Notice in the many writings of Houteff, you have never ONCE admitted that he brought light to the Scriptures. This can only mean that you have an agenda and that is to counter the Lord's last day prophet -- the Elijah to come, of whom you weakly say "Oh there is no Elijah to come" or even worse--"Oh that was Ellen White" lol. Continue on sister , I shall watch for each and every foolish word and comments you write, and expose it as Christ exposed the Pharisees!

The Truth shall stand and your twisting and lack of knowledge will not stand. I say this sadly.


Look forward to exposing your comments on the other posts as soon as time allows.

I know Houteff did not write the Bible verses, that's not the issue.

It appears YOU THINK the Rod IS Houteff?
But just because he took that name upon himself does not mean it is true.

Houteff claims:
Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9.

So here we see Houteff's claim that he is the only "Rod" that has ever spoken, and that those verses pertain to him.

But that doesn't make it so.


I'm sure when the Psalmist penned the following words --he did not have Houteff in mind.
"The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want...
Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" (Psalm 23)


The shepherd's (and Moses was once a shepherd as well) rod is about 3' long. It can be used as a club to defend the sheep against wild animals that would come to kill, steal and destroy his sheep. But it is also used to comfort and guide the sheep.
The words "sheep", "lamb" and "shepherd" appear over 600 times in the Bible


The rod is is usually made out of fallen timhers from a tree that the shepherd peels and makes smooth; it becomes a ready weapon against any attacker.
The shepherd's rod is very helpful, enabling the shepherd to pull away branches or thorn bushes so that the sheep can safely walk on the path as the shepherd leads.

The shepherd can use his staff to pull out little lambs or sheep who have wondered off the path to a hard to reach place, or to rescue lambs and sheep who have fallen into a hole. The sheep do notice the sheperd's power and strength and this gives "comfort" to the sheep.

The "ROD" is actially the Word of God.
It is God's Word that speaks with power,and strength, it rescues us from all kinds of danger. The "STAFF" is the Holy Spirit who guides us along the path that The Good Shepherd leads us on. The Holy Spirit comforts us and draws us closer to the Son of God, Jesus Christ. It is in His presence that we experience peace and joy.

Whatever you are going through right now, you are not alone. Say with the Psalmist:


"I WILL FEAR NO EVIL, FOR YOU ARE WITH ME;

YOUR ROD AND YOUR STAFF, THEY COMFORT ME."

Ded-It appears YOU THINK the Rod IS Houteff?
But just because he took that name upon himself does not mean it is true.

LOL, get real. How many times do I have to tell you to know your history? Brother Houteff began to write the Shepherd's Rod (volume one) BEFORE he even knew that Micah 6:9 existed! Wake up! Your knowledge is exposed before God.

Ded- I'm sure when the Psalmist penned the following words --he did not have Houteff in mind.
"The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want...
Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" (Psalm 23)

Ofcourse this is separate of Micah 6:9. Just because the word "rod" is used you cannot assume they mean as one. LOL this is funny!

Ded- Houteff claims:
Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9.

So here we see Houteff's claim that he is the only "Rod" that has ever spoken, and that those verses pertain to him.

God spoke that a "rod" would speak, Houteff began the SRod volumes even before knowing that the Micah 6:9 existed. Learn your history.

Ded- The "ROD" is actially the Word of God.
It is God's Word that speaks with power,and strength, it rescues us from all kinds of danger.

Finally you have said the truth. Yes the Lord's Rod is God's word. Infact He is called the Shepherd's Rod through out the Scriptures!In fact there is a book written by a Jewish scholar who explains that the word "Shepherd's rod" is written through out the Bible!

Ded-Whatever you are going through right now, you are not alone. Say with the Psalmist:


"I WILL FEAR NO EVIL, FOR YOU ARE WITH ME;

YOUR ROD AND YOUR STAFF, THEY COMFORT ME."

LOL, how about YOU saying those words , to awake you from your ignorance and maybe , just maybe you'll finally humble yourself and say , "you know I did not know that"


"Their questioning is not for the purpose of arriving at truth, but is intended merely to confuse the minds of others. Some have thought it an evidence of intellectual keenness and superiority to perplex minds in regard to what is truth. They resort to subtlety of argument, to playing upon words.."(Test. to Ministers, p.108- 109)

The quote I shared came straight from the first pages (PAGE 6) of Houteff's "the Shepherd's Rod (volume one)" tract edition.
It is a facsimile copy of that book -- obviously a photocopy of the original tract he sent out.

Now GLL is denying that Houteff claimed to be the Rod?????? That he himself never realized the verses (Micah 6:9) existed -- am I supposed to believe that?????


"Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9."(The Shepherd's Rod, Vol. 1 That the First Fruits may stand on Mt. Zion, p. 6)

When he wrote the preface is immaterial the point is -- it is his claim IN PRINT in that original publication. (published in 1945) a good ten years prior to his death.


The Biblical shepherd's Rod is God's Word and His dealings, not Houteff's words or deceptive teachings.

Anyone can claim something -- that does not make it true.
The Biblical references to Rod -- are not about Houteff.

Those words are very precious to me -- for Christ is my Shepherd, and His Words and His Holy Spirit comfort me.

And they most certainly do not refer to Houteff.

Ded- The quote I shared came straight from the first pages (PAGE 6) of Houteff's "the Shepherd's Rod (volume one)" tract edition.

Let's look at what you said--

Ded- Houteff claims:
Purporting to be the antitype of the first Exodus, the Shepherd's Rod takes its name from Moses' rod, the instrument through which God manifested His power in the deliverance of the children of Israel. The "Shepherd's Rod" the only Rod that has ever spoken was predicted and recommended in Micah 6:9.

So here we see Houteff's claim that he is the only "Rod" that has ever spoken, and that those verses pertain to him.

First off, brother Houteff is not saying "he" is the rod,lol. That is what YOU say. He is saying that the "Shepherd's Rod" writings are the rod that was prophesied to speak. It would be like us saying that Ellen White is--the Spirit of Prophecy. No, her writings are considered this

Yes I know you don't believe that VTH was the prophesied Elijah to come. It's marked in heaven, don't worry. The recording angel has it all down.

Ded- Those words are very precious to me -- for Christ is my Shepherd, and His Words and His Holy Spirit comfort me.

And they most certainly do not refer to Houteff.

Sadly what shall be found "precious" in the day of the beginning of the judgement for the living upon the SDA church, is what you've mocked and derided.

"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness." (Mal. 3:2)

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea." (Isaiah 11:11)

Now we can clearly see why, which such doubting, , just as in the days of Korah and the disbelievers in God's prophet (Moses), He had to swallow them up else He would allow such doubters and skeptics to infiltrate His people in coming into the kingdom--so too, He will do so again prior to His people going into His kingdom (Israel) for the final time(prior to the New Earth).

The problem is --
You imply the cleansing is a killing off of people.

THE TRUE CLEANSING
While I see the cleansing as something that needs to be done in our lives, in our hearts and minds.

"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness." (Mal. 3:2)

So who will abide the day when Christ comes?

When we come close to Christ, indeed our sins appear as sinful. But He has opened the fountain of cleansing for us! His shed blood is for our cleansing. As we look upon Him on the cross we realize it was our sins that put Him there. And like He arose from the grave, we too need to die to sin and rise in newness of life, walking with Him day by day. When we invite Him into our lives, and fill our thoughts with HIS word, He will cleanse us from sin, purify our hearts and minds.
That is the cleansing we are to seek.


In your studies cleansing is called killing.
That's not cleansing anyone.

Nor is it the cleansing being talked about there.
Do you want to be cleansed from sin, or do you just want to get rid of everyone who is against your idea of a kingdom over there in old Jerusalem that will be the biggest deception of Satan that he will deliver to the world before Christ comes.

USING AN APPEAL FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS

The deceptive kingdom has a counterfeit righteousness.
In fact the deception is built by upholding a "righteousness".

All I have to do is read some of the marion apparitions messages and realize that satan and his fallen angels who are the voice behind these apparitions, is very "pious" about getting rid of sin or else a great chastisement will come.
The messages are full of denouncing the evils in this world in no soft pedaling manner, and calling for reforms in the churches and in the lives of people and urging them to pray and forsake their sins, and threatening a chastisement if they don't.

But does that make them true messages?

No -- because one doesn't have to read far into them before seeing some very WRONG things. (And I don't recommend studying them because the good does NOT outweigh the deceptive nature) But just talk to someone who believes them and they respond that we are too "closed minded" and "opinionated" etc. that we should look into it more, and we don't really understand them, and not be so prejudice and that we will bring the chastisement.

Now
Houteff's message has taken many truths from Adventism and they are geared to those who see the evils in the church and wish with all their hearts that they weren't there. Yes, he calls for reforms that are needed, that's his entering wedge to get Adventists to follow his teachings.

But does a heavy mixture of truth and a call for reform (all good in themselves) prove that His message is from God?

His followers have webpages out there saying the reason Houteff was disfellowshipped was because he called for reforms in the church.

THAT is NOT the reason. The reason was because he taught doctrines (especially his Jerusalem doctrine and extermination of Adventists doctrine) that brought a lot of confusion into the churches.

He is NOT in agreement with EGW at all. It's one or the other, not both.
Anyone who has read a lot from EGW's writings, can see it constantly how he misuses her writings and weaves them in to say what he wants to say, not what she taught.

THE DESTINATION

When one strips away all the "Adventist" trimmings that hide his true message, what is left pretty much leads to the same deceptive end as most all other religious/new age type messages lead to.

Different? Yes, quite different in detail, but very similar in final destination.

1) The need for the destruction of opposing forces.
For Houteff it is the need for the Adventist church to be exterminated.
But I could quote you from various different beliefs, that such is believed to be needed before the "kingdom" of peace and higher level of living can be achieved.


Yes, there is no doubt there will be a lot of blood shed in the future, with that kind of mindset of so many. Each seeking their utopic kingdom here on earth, and seeing those who don't believe in that kingdom as "holding it back" so it can't happen (thus they must die)

But we are not to fear for the preservation of this life.
Our lives need to be hid in Christ.

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

John 16:2 the time will come, that whosoever kills you will think that he is doing God service.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

2) The kingdom
All eyes are turned toward Jerusalem expecting big things there. Whether one calls it a "temporal kingdom" before the millennium or the "millennial kingdom" really makes no difference. They are all looking for a kingdom here on earth and for some reason Jerusalem is the coveted spot.
Most see a lot of troublesome times to take place first before the utopic quantum leap is made.

And they will get it (almost).
Why almost? Because it will fail.
Because it isn't God's kingdom, it is Satan's attempt to "exalt his throne above the stars of God: and sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Is. 14:13
"Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, [on] the sides of the north, the city of the great King. Psalms 48:2

The fallen angel wants the worship that is due to God.
Through marvellous signs and wonders, he will gather all nations -- but it will be the battle against the LAMB, it will not be God's kingdom at all, even though the chief leaders in that hoped for kingdom will appear to be very religious.

No -- the true MESSAGE does not lead us to old Jerusalem, but to the NEW JERUSALEM which is above.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God comes not with observation:
17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when you shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.



Notice several things in the passage above

1) The kingdom is not by observation -- in other words don't look for a literal kingdom here. The kingdom now is one that is to be in us -- a kingdom of grace that cleanses the soul.

2) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Yet the rod message is saying Lo here! Lo there! It is focused on a place as God's kingdom on earth.
But the kingdom prior to Christ's coming is not in any place -- it is to be within us.

3) See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Do not follow anyone to old Jerusalem seeking a kingdom there.
Till Christ comes the only kingdom is the one that is to be within you.

Ded- In your studies cleansing is called killing.
That's not cleansing anyone

Dedication is mistaken again.

First- let's look at what the Lord did to "cleanse" --

1) The whole world was nearly apostate in Noah's day--How did God choose to cleanse? The answer , as we know is quite obvious. He killed and that He did thoroughly! Was He a bad guy?

2) In Lot's time the whole area (cities) had become evil and intolerable, what did God do? He killed and that He did thoroughly.

3) In Moses' time when nearly the entire camp had shown Him unfaithfulness and unbelief, what did God do? He killed and that He did thoroughly. (Korah and the multitude swallowed alive by Him, people killed with bird meat in their teeth, ALL males over 20 not allowed to enter kingdom who showed unbelief, etc.)

So we see that God does indeed cleanse by death(killing). Soon the Lord will do so again.

(Will post part 2 tonight of the pre-mil kingdom, in a new thread)

Ded- As to the quote in Isaiah 2

There are "if" and the context.

Isaiah 1:18-20 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

Then in the next chapter

Quote:
2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Let us see what the dictionary says about the word--"shall"

1. Used before a verb in the infinitive to show:
a. Something that will take place or exist in the future: We shall arrive tomorrow.
b. Something, such as an order, promise, requirement, or obligation: You shall leave now. He shall answer for his misdeeds. The penalty shall not exceed two years in prison.
c. The will to do something or have something take place: I shall go out if I feel like it.
d. Something that is inevitable: That day shall come.
2. Archaic
a. To be able to.
b. To have to; must.
Source- "the free online dictionary by Farlex"

There are 10 shalls and 2 wills in Isaiah 2:2-4 (as shown by word defintion is something that WILL take place)
This is definitely not conditional and for Dedication to say the Isaiah 1:18-20 quote negates His later promises is preposterous and deceitful. A way to "private interpret" the Scriptures!

Ded- And yes, in the New Earth the saved from every nation, tribe and tongue will inhabit the earth. They will gladly come to the New Jerusalem to worship God and learn more about salvation.
The study of God's salvation will be looked into by the saints for eternity -- we don't half understand it now.

There is nothing foolish in Johns depiction of all the nations of the saved coming to Jerusalem.

What happens in New Jerusalem is not issue. What is, is the attempt for you to put "last days" in the time of the "New Earth". Just because similar language is used such as "nations" does not mean one can use private interpretations to mix and match references as you have attmepted.

Again, your connection with New Jerusalem to "last days" does not pass the truth test. When the Lord shall descend the Holy City upon a NEW earth, it shall be NEW world and NEW times and NEW days. NO where in Scripture can we find "last days" ever describing New Jerusalem. Only in peoples private interpretations.

As far as Isaiah 2:4, we read--

Isa. 2:4 -- "And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

"Not the nations, but Inspiration Itself declares that in the day God judges the living, then those nations who go to the mountain (Kingdom church purified) of the Lord "shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks" -- they will go farming instead of spending their strength in war.

The nations that do not accept the Lord's "rebuke," in that day, though, will madly arise against the "mountain" of the Lord, as forecast by the prophet Joel, saying: "Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears:

let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about." Joel 3:9- 12.

So yes, nation shall not lift up sword against "nation" but rather against the "Lord" and His people, as Joel 3:9-12 describes. Ah, understanding His word fully, really straightens us out, amen!

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20)

Bottom line, unless Dedication can show us from Scripture or SOP where the New Jerusalem time is called "last days" we must throw out her teachings here as it is nothing but her "private interpretation". Isaiah 2:2-3 cannot have a future application as she has tried to make us believe.

If you recall the prophecy found in Isaiah, was made to Israel prior to their captivity. They were promised that they would be re-gathered to their home land. And true to God's promise the temple and city was rebuilt. (See Ezra and Nehemiah)

According to Daniel 9 we read that after the decree to rebuild was given they were given 70 weeks of 7 or 490 years.
This was their allotted time -- their probationary time.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

They were to forsake their sinful ways and be in covenant relationship with God. Near the end of those 490 years the Messiah came and made reconciliation for iniquity through His death, and ratify and offer the new everlasting covenant to His people. He is the "most holy" who was anointed at His baptism.

They were to accept the Messiah and be a light to the whole world to which the nations would flock and learn about the true God.

THE LAST DAYS of the prophecy refer to the last of that time period.
It was in those last days that Son of God HIMSELF, Emmanuel, God with us, came and lived, walked, talked among them.
This was their destiny, their purpose.

490 years were given to them
In the last days of their probationary time they faced two doors -- Isaiah, in several places, describing one of those doors of a glorious righteous nation--

Daniel pictures the other door -- that three and half years after Christ's sacrifice to reconcile them to God, the nation (as a nation) sealed their destiny by stoning Stephen who presented to them a covenant summons, (Acts 7) and so they chose the second door.


Daniel 9 shows the other door. -- the one they chose in their last days of probationary time as God's nation.

9:27 And he (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (by His sacrificial death) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jerusalem's "last days" ended in 34 AD it's destiny sealed to be desolate until the consummation. There will be no re-emergence of old Jerusalem as God's city of righteousness.


But God's promises will be fulfilled to His faithful.
For we look for the NEW JERUSALEM which is above and which is free, the mother of us all. (Galatians 4:26)
We want Christ to write His name and the name of God's city, the NEW JERUSALEM on our foreheads (Rev. 3:12) with the blessed promise that we will be citizens of the heavenly kingdom.

Ded- If you recall the prophecy found in Isaiah, was made to Israel prior to their captivity. They were promised that they would be re-gathered to their home land. And true to God's promise the temple and city was rebuilt. (See Ezra and Nehemiah)

Amazing! Now instead of explaining how she can produce Scriptural/SOP to back up her declaring that Isaiah 2:2-3 has a "New earth" application (which we all saw her make) she now reverts back to "oh that Scripture means the days of old Israel."

What happened to proof for your statement, you rescind that belief? Or can't find anything from Inspiration showing that --"last days = New earth?

I see your report and it does not produce anything that shows Inspiration words to back up your statement. I could clearly explain how even your old days meaning of Isaiah 2:2-3 cannot be, but let's do first things first.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20)

No, it's not a mistake -- it's looking at things in context. When Christ speaks of CLEANSING HIS PEOPLE, it means cleansing the people --

It means washing them from their sins, changing their hearts and minds, helping them to overcome sin.

Ps. 51:2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
2 Cor. 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

That is different from executing judgment.

Noah's day-- Lot's day

They are examples of the second coming.
Yes, there will be an executive judgment.

But what God desires now is to CLEANSE people and prepare them as citizens of the NEW JERUSALEM.

What Satan desires now is to get rid of Adventists (and anyone else) who exposes his deceptive earthly kingdom in which he hopes to trap people into worshipping him.

It's the MIXING of concepts to create false things that's the problem.

No I haven't rescinded anything - I simply repeated what apparently you missed.

See post a few pages back
I simply gave more information on the same thing.



And so GLL must again attack me, instead of actually looking or reading what I wrote.

Again and for the 3rd or 4th time (I forgot how many) show us where you can provide Inspiration of the statement you made that Isaiah 2:2-3 has a future application in the New Earth. And where Inspiration describes "last days" in the time of New Jerusalem.

Your last post did not come through with the links, you may want to press enter upon the posting of the links.

Bottom line , if you connect Isaiah 2:2-3 to an application applying to the New earth then simply provide Inspiration for that, not your words-- but Inspiration. If you do not have, fine, just clear that with us.

I did look at your "few pages back" and did not see any reference. Only your words explaining "your" ideas. There is no "personal attacks" by asking for you to provide Inspiration for your belief that "last days" refers to the New Jerusalem time. And the reference for the future Isaiah 2:2-3 to the New earth period, which you claimed.

I am speaking of the cleansing of the "people" not of the "person" Two big differences.

No one can deny that Joshua and Caleb, were found righteous among the 20+ in the congregation (some say 1 million!). The elimination of the others produced a "cleansed" people in the Lord's eyes. In other words elimination of the unbelieving, as he will do in the church judgment (Ezek. 9), frees the wheat from the tares, just as the crop is cleansed by taking out the tares.

Somehow my last post got scrambled and lost half of what I wrote???? Don't know what happened?

So I'll try again.

But no, I haven't rescinded anything - I simply repeated what apparently you missed.

See post a few pages back
I simply gave more information on the same thing, and scripture was supplied.



No, I never said the New Earth is the "last days".
The New Earth comes after the final executive judgment.
The "last days" were part of what was God's original plan for Isreal as a nation -- in the last days of the 490 year probation they were to accept Christ and be the light to the world.

The problem we've encountered several times is you apparently don't believe the prophets of old were first and foremost talking to their own people. Thus you insist that every detail concerning the prophecy applies to our day.

But that is not the case -- what originally applied to literal Israel and their land and immediate geographical situation is adapted to a new situation after the plan for the Jewish nation is transferred to all nations that accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

So when Isaiah writes the "last days" he is talking first to his own people. To their time of probation.

Much of Isaiah's prophecies were concerning Christ's coming who was to come in the last "days" of their 490 year probation.

God place His people at the crossroads of the ancient civilizations and provided them with every facility for becoming the greatest nation on the face of the earth.

" God desired to make of His people Israel a praise and a glory. Every spiritual advantage was given them. God withheld from them nothing favorable to the formation of character that would make them representatives of Himself.
Their obedience to the law of God would make them marvels of prosperity before the nations of the world. {COL 288}


The conditions governing the promises were clearly set forth before they even entered into the land of Canaan, as we read in the blessings pronounced upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal.
(See Deut. 28-30)

30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

However, their prophecies ALSO reach out beyond the time, and the prophecies not realized to Israel will find fulfillment by the gospel accepting/commandment keeping church. Yet, the gospel was never confined to a city or geographical place.

Jesus dialogue with the Samaritan woman:
John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
4:21 Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Christians are found all over the earth, and when Christ comes they will still be scattered all over the earth for
Matt. 24 tells us
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The fundamental principle in understanding prophecies made to ancient Israel that, due to their rejection of Christ were not fulfilled to them, is to go to the NEW TESTAMENT and see how they are now applied.

That is the "inspired" source to look to and compare.

Unless we do that, our interpretations of prophecies concerning Israel and their land are "fraught with great danger".

It is clear in both the NT and in EGW's writings that the nations of the saved will flow to worship into the New Jerusalem.

And I quoted the verses from Rev. 22 showing this.

My first answer to Isaiah 3


The 490 days/years allotted to the Jewish nation can be found in Daniel 9.
This was further enlarged in the following post of Dec. 12



Old Jerusalem will NEVER be rebuilt --
""I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up;"
EW 75
What part of NEVER do they not understand?
God showed EGW that Jerusalem would NEVER be built up.
God doesn't give us truth and then turn around and uproot it for something else.

Now there is a lot of building going on over there.
It seems plenty clear that she was referring to OLD JERUSALEM will never be built up as the "city of God".

Daniel 9 outlines the history of old Jerusalem -- 490 years, till the Messiah comes to confirm the covenant, be "cut off" as the sacrifice to which all sacrifices pointed, and because of the nations rejection of the Messiah of the Covenant the city is left desolate.

And Jesus confirms Daniels prediction
“Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matt.23:38.

Ded- No, I never said the New Earth is the "last days".
The New Earth comes after the final executive judgment.
The "last days" were part of what was God's original plan for Isreal as a nation -- in the last days of the 490 year probation they were to accept Christ and be the light to the world.

Ok then what are you doing telling us that Isaiah 2:2-3 has an application in the New Earth period? The "last days" as we have conclusively showed cannot be this period of time. Further, it cannot cover your idea of the old Israel days.

Ded-The problem we've encountered several times is you apparently don't believe the prophets of old were first and foremost talking to their own people. Thus you insist that every detail concerning the prophecy applies to our day.

But that is not the case -- what originally applied to literal Israel and their land and immediate geographical situation is adapted to a new situation after the plan for the Jewish nation is transferred to all nations that accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.


Ok let's look at the Inspired quote from the Lord again--

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.(verse 2)

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."(verse 3)

Ok let's carefully look at what is said by the Lord, through Isaiah.


1) "Now it shall come to pass..." What come to pass? ALL the following words that are to follow pertaining to this reference. This right here means that the words he is about to speak SHALL be done. No if's maybe or butts.

2) What is to be done? The Lord's people ( see Daniel 9:20 for evidence that mountain means God's people) are to be established above and exalted of all the nations around and ALL nations are to flow to it

3) What does flow to it mean? It means come up to it, God's place where the further reference tells us.

4) Again, "Many people shall come Come where? the answer comes shortly

5) "Come ,let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. This can only mean His church, his --house.

6) Why do all the nations go there? Because "He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths."

7) Here is where we find where this place shall be-- "For out of ZION shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem

Now, after we see what this is saying , we must ask ourselves the following--

1) Did the all nations of the earth AFTER Isaiah prophesied this, ever do this? Can we locate a time in history where the all nations of the earth came up to Jerusalem to get the word from the Lord?

The answer is obviously--no.

further as we see there can only be fulfillment of this prior to the second coming because ,as we've shown and Dedication has not shown, there cannot be a New earth application here. Last days are not new Earth days.

Why is this important? Because if we doubt what he will do, we doubt Him!

Ded --So when Isaiah writes the "last days" he is talking first to his own people. To their time of probation.

Cannot be, read the above reason.

Ded-It is clear in both the NT and in EGW's writings that the nations of the saved will flow to worship into the New Jerusalem.

I have no disagreement with this statement. BUT Isaiah is talking of these to 'come to pass" in the "last days" not in the New earth days (Isaiah 2:2-3). That is my original point. it was you who denied it, and tried to put two time periods to it that cannot be, as shown.

To look at what it is really saying, we should understand that the Lord will establish a "house of Jacob" in the holy land in the "last days". The reason-- to have the world (all nations) learn His truth. yes, this wil be in the same time as the counter movement--the "Beast system. But the point being that the Lord will leave mankind with no excuse to make the right choice.This is the final "Great Controversy."

"Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us." (Selected Messages, vol. 3, p.338) -- Isaiah 2:2-3 is a perfect example.

Let's "take the Bible as it reads"(GCp. 598-599) instead of trying to mislead the people (wrong time period for fulfillment). God does not wink at this.You can't pull a quote out and apply it to another time, when that quote itself disallows it, plain and simple.

It is precisely because it didn't happen when it was supposed to have happened, that a different interpretation is necessary.

It was SUPPOSE TO HAPPEN in the last days of Jerusalem's probationary time. The "last days" of Jerusalems 490 years of probationary time.

But it couldn't happen because the nation rejected the very ONE who could make it possible for them.


What originally applied to literal Israel and their land and immediate geographical situation is adapted to a new situation after the plan meant for the Jewish nation, but couldn't be filfulled because of their unbelief, is transferred to all nations that accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

I see you CHANGED my sentence making it seem like I said something that I did not:
GLL wrote --I have no disagreement with this statement. BUT Isaiah is talking of these to 'come to pass" in the "last days" not in the New earth days (Isaiah 2:2-3).
You changed my meaning in order to "agree"? When obviously you don't agree for I wrote that Isaiah was talking about the LAST DAYS OF JERUSALEM'S PROBATIONARY TIME -- the last days of the 490 years and what was meant to take place at that time.


Indeed Jerusalem was to exalted above all other religions and all nations were to flow to them to learn about salvation and their commitment to the Messiah to which all their rituals had pointed.



So we see plainly that this WAS God's plan for Jerusalem to occupy. Especially "in the last days" of their probationary time of 490 years, when God sent His Son to dwell among them, confirm the covenant with them; was the door open for them to be this wondrous nation to which all nations would flow to find truth.

The IF'S (conditions) are there -- it's just that you are not looking at the whole context, but simply lifting out those two verses.





It's not "doubting" God's Word at all to realize what He intended for national Israel in ancient times.

And yes, even though the details are adjusted FROM the geographical place and applied to God's people all over the earth, the promises will still come to pass.

It is this "adjustment" that you deny.
But that adjustment can be seen in scripture and EGW.

God's truth will be proclaimed,
It will be exalted.

But that does not include a centralized government in OLD JERUSALEM.

In no way does the end time picture in Revelation show ALL nations flowing to old Jerusalem. It's quite the opposite, they are all FLOWING to the beast and dragon and false prophet. And Daniel tells us it is the "king of the North" the confederate religions under the pope's leadership power, that will set up their tabernacle in that "mountain".

Ded- It was SUPPOSE TO HAPPEN in the last days of Jerusalem's probationary time. The "last days" of Jerusalems 490 years of probationary time.

Again, you are saying that the Lord's word "shall come to pass" does not mean that. In other words you are destroying His plain words of what He will do.

We must take the Bible as it reads unless figures or symbols are used. GC p.598-599

No where is there a contingency to this word of God. You try to use Isaiah 1:19 "if you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it." As the conditional words to Isaiah 2:2-3 being fulfilled.

But look further on the next verses. Notice that if they do not obey He will do the following:

"How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water. Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

"Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city." (Isaiah 1:21-26)

So what does the condition of not obeying bring--His judgments! But notice something important , after His cleansing He promises to restore His people (verse 26)

You see Dedication's short sighted picking and choosing does not work. It is nothing more than private interpretation, which I have warned her should be corrected, lest no remedy is available.

Ded- You changed my meaning in order to "agree"? When obviously you don't agree for I wrote that Isaiah was talking about the LAST DAYS OF JERUSALEM'S PROBATIONARY TIME -- the last days of the 490 years and what was meant to take place at that time.

Again your "conditional" belief of Isaiah 2:2-3 is a house of cards, as shown.

Ded- In no way does the end time picture in Revelation show ALL nations flowing to old Jerusalem. It's quite the opposite, they are all FLOWING to the beast and dragon and false prophet. And Daniel tells us it is the "king of the North" the confederate religions under the pope's leadership power, that will set up their tabernacle in that "mountain".

I've seen you "Counterfiet Kingdom" report and the holes that exist. Will comment on that as well later

*******************************************

So what are we left with? Two options.

1) We can say that it was conditional as Dedication believes.

But this cannot be so because His word, The Lord's cannot return void, and it says “Shall come to pass.” The passage itself has 10 “shalls” which emphatically points to it sure fulfillment. All nations shall go up to Jerusalem to hear the word and law of the Lord. As mentioned Isaiah under the Spirit of the Lord, was no doubt looking down towards our day. He spoke more for us than for his time (SLM, vol.3, p.338)

2) His word shall come true as He has said.

Meaning that literally, the city of Jerusalem shall be the headquarters for the final proclamation of the gospel- Loud Cry. If we are honest seekers of the truth and weigh it all out, this must be our conclusion and faith. Keep in mind this city may not be rebuilt where it is today.

Note: this is just one of many Scriptures that say the same thing-- Jerusalem and Israel shall be inhabited by God's people in the last days. They are the Lord's plain declarations, with no ifs, maybes, or buts. For instance, in our next lesson on the pre- millennial kingdom we shall look at Isaiah chapter 11.

Bottom line, let's take heed to believe in His word as spoken by the prophets. The Jews doubted Christ's word because they held onto “one” prophet despite the many teachings of the others pointing to a later fulfillment of the kingdom. They wanted it immediately, and had little knowledge of when it would come.

So too, we as God's people, Laodiceans, have mostly fallen into this same Satan trick, we don't know much about the kingdom or how it will truly arrive because we only understand one prophet EGW, to the disregard of the Elijah prophet sent by the Lord prior to the great and dreadful day of the Lord.All I can say is "Lord count me in, I'm ready when you say--"Go".

Lastly, for those who are wondering when this kingdom begins, the message tells us that it is to begin setting up during or right after the next world war (over Israel).Who can deny that there is tremendous tension right now over there? Get ready cause it will explode very shortly.His word declares it! A whole new subject in itself!

“The unbelief that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to the evidence that God is pleased to give. He requires of His people faith that rests upon weight of evidence, not upon perfect knowledge. Those followers of Christ who accept the light that God sends them must obey the voice of God speaking to them when there are many other voices crying out against it. It requires discernment to distinguish the voice of God. “ (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.258)

“Hold not to what fabricated ideas seem to make Scripture say, but grip tenaciously to what the word,in simplicity, plainly says.” (Tract 10, p.13)

No - that is your twist on things.
God did exactly what he said he would do.


GLL: We must take the Bible as it reads unless figures or symbols are used. GC p.598-599

Indeed, but we must also take it in it's full context as pertains to history, the story of salvation, and, using your words, -- the unfolding of truth.


GLL: No where is there a contingency to this word of God. You try to use Isaiah 1:19 "if you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it." As the conditional words to Isaiah 2:2-3 being fulfilled.

That was just one example I gave,
If you read -- the context and condition of all promises to Israel was established prior to their entering the land of Canaan -- at the Mt. of Blessings and curses (Deut. 28-30)

GLL wrote: But look further on the next verses. Notice that if they do not obey He will do the following:

"How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water. Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

"Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city." (Isaiah 1:21-26)


Yes, and God did exactly that --
Remember once again that Isaiah wrote prior to Israel's first destruction.
Yes, that's exactly what happened, the armies came and purged the kingdom of Israel off the map, leaving it in ruins, while a faithful remnant was taken captive -- people like Daniel and his three companions.

Then God restored them, he sent them Ezra and Nehemiah, and prophets to re-establish them and set up a "righteous" kingdom. We read in Ezra how judges who taught God's law were to be set up. How much God did to get them started on the right track, giving them another 490 years of probation to prepare for the coming of the Messiah!

That was the whole plan -- they were to be a city of righteousness.
This was to culminate in their kingdom being set above other kingdoms with all nations coming to them to find truth.

BUT as we see in Daniel 9 which lays out the whole history of the restored Jerusalem that was given 490 more years.
They rejected the Prince of the Covenant -- the Messiah.
Thus their CITY is left desolate until the consummation.

Yet, as far as the Jewish people did accepted Him, God could fulfill the promise. We do find people from all nations in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:5) when Peter preached and 5000 were converted; everyone understanding the gospel message in their own language (Acts 2) The wonderful truth of salvation DID go out from Jerusalem to all the world.




GLL wrote: Again your "conditional" belief of Isaiah 2:2-3 is a house of cards, as shown.

No, it's not a house of cards, it was the reality of what happened.
After being "cleansed" and "restored" they still, as a nation, ended up rejecting the Messiah, and thus the promise could not be carried out in it's fullness, but it did happen as far as it through Jewish people who did accept Christ.

It will be completely fulfilled ONLY in the NEW JERUSALEM, after the whole world is cleansed-- that's the only time when ALL nations (everyone) will be joyously worshipping the God of our Salvation.


And beware -- I have no doubt that you will boo hoo the "counterfeit" kingdom study, but it was given for a warning.

An OLD Jerusalem kingdom is A TRAP, a deception,
It is Satan using those OT prophecies to his advantage --
It's not just SR, that are doing this -- it is A LOT OF PEOPLE who are looking for a kingdom of righteousness -- the kingdom of God in OLD JERUSALEM, and believe it or not, most think a counterfeit will precede the true, so satan has both ends covered when he appears as the glorious Messiah) and yes it will be a masterful delusion.
I wish and pray you would realize that.

Ded- No - that is your twist on things.
God did exactly what he said he would do.

Let's repeat, He said he will make something "come --to--pass" -- a house of His people established above all the other people from Zion, and His word to go out from JERUSALEM. But here is key -- ALL NATIONS. let me repeat that, ALL NATIONS shall 'flow to it" and this is in the LAST days.

Keep these promised words firmly in mind "ALL NATIONS--LAST DAYS--SHALL -- JERUSALEM


We've already established that this did not take place in "your idea" of the end of the 490 years NOR any time from Isaiah's time. I researched this time period and found out that almost exclusively, turmoil and revolts, war,disaster and invasions came upon Jerusalem after Isaiah's time. Certainly not "ALL NATIONS" came up to Jerusalem to get the word of the Lord since Isaiah's time.

Ded- Indeed, but we must also take it in it's full context as pertains to history, the story of salvation, and, using your words, -- the unfolding of truth.

"Unfolding of truth" are not my words, but they are Inspirations--

“Those who train the mind to seize upon everything which they can use as a peg to hang a doubt upon, and suggest these thoughts to other minds, will always find occasion to doubt.

They will question and criticize everything that arises in the unfolding of truth, criticize the work and position of others, criticize every branch of the work in which they have not themselves a part.

They will feed upon the errors and mistakes and faults of others, ‘until,’ said the angel, ‘the Lord Jesus shall rise up from His mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary, and shall clothe Himself with the garments of vengeance, and surprise them at their unholy feast; and they will find themselves unprepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb.’

Their taste has been so perverted that they would be inclined to criticize even the table of the Lord in His kingdom.”—(Testimonies for the Church, Vol. V, p. 690.)

Notice it is not AFTER the unfolding of truth, but during it, that He "shall rise up" and "surprise them at their unholy feast."
Another reference showing a church purification.

I said, "No where is there a contingency to this word of God. You try to use Isaiah 1:19 "if you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it." As the conditional words to Isaiah 2:2-3 being fulfilled."

Ded-That was just one example I gave,
If you read -- the context and condition of all promises to Israel was established prior to their entering the land of Canaan -- at the Mt. of Blessings and curses (Deut. 28-30)

Again, if one uses your logic then every one of His "shall's", "wills", "Come to pass" are reduced to nothing and are empty promises. They are void words spoken that return void. A thing that CANNOT exist with God, else He's not God. If after Deut.28-30, God is playing with His promises--I WILL, I SHALL, etc. then we have BIG trouble, because there are literally many many of these.

Further, God said through His prophetess--

"That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today. He has “let out His vineyard unto other husbandmen,” even to His covenant-keeping people, who faithfully “render Him the fruits in their seasons.”

Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people.

What does Inspiration tell us here? ALL, and there is that key word ALL, the covenant PROMISES made by Jehovah are to be fulfilled to His last day people.

God made six covenants with Israel. They are the following:

Abrahamic Covenant
Mosaic Covenant
Sabbatic Covenant
Palestinian or Land Covenant
Davidic Covenant
New Covenant

"Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

"Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city." (Isaiah 1:21-26)

Like we say "context" is key many times. You have said that Isaiah 1:19-20 is a contingency for the promise of Isaiah 2:2-3. As shown this cannot be, further if we look at how God make's His city a righteous city, it all flows IN CONTEXT from Isaiah 1:26 right to Isaiah 2:2-3 in the "last days" an "exalted House" where ALL nation flow. So the correct flow context, I would argue is not an application from Isaiah's time (or after) to suddenly our "last days" time(Isaiah 2:2-3)

Again, each of the ancient prophets spoke more for our time then theirs (SLM, vol. 3, p. 338). This is why I believe the context flow was written Inspirationally through Isaiah TO US TODAY as Inspiration says.

Ded-An OLD Jerusalem kingdom is A TRAP, a deception,
It is Satan using those OT prophecies to his advantage --
It's not just SR, that are doing this -- it is A LOT OF PEOPLE who are looking for a kingdom of righteousness -- the kingdom of God in OLD JERUSALEM, and believe it or not, most think a counterfeit will precede the true, so satan has both ends covered when he appears as the glorious Messiah) and yes it will be a masterful delusion.
I wish and pray you would realize that.

We shall see. Inspiration has some good counsel--

"Whenever the study of the Scriptures is entered upon without a prayerful, humble, teachable spirit, the plainest and simplest as well as the most difficult passages will be wrested from their true meaning."(GC p. 521)

"The word of God is plain to all who study it with a prayerful heart. Every truly honest soul will come to the light of truth. “Light is sown for the righteous.” Psalm 97:11. And no church can advance in holiness unless its members are earnestly seeking for truth as for hid treasure." (Ibid, p.521-522)

Truth has unfolded -- Christ has come. The kingdom of Grace has been established.

True, what happened to Israel is for our example, we need to learn from it, and take heed that our relationship with God is genuine.
True, much of Isaiah's prophecies ALSO apply to us, but we need to see them IN THE LIGHT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT -- as truth has unfolded.

But lets go over Isaiah 1 and 2 once more.
As you obviously do not understand what I said.

And all your cry about God not being faithful if He doesn't expect us all to flock to Palestine is just a straw man, that doesn't hold up.
God's promises are FAR GREATER than that.


TIME AND SITUATION BEING ADDRESSED:

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Notice this is "concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of" their ancient kings.

1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more:

God has tried to draw them to Himself, but they go backward. Calamities have come upon them, but they didn't learn from them, and if it weren't for "the remnant " of faithful ones they would have been like Sodom and Gomorrah.

1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY STILL FOLLOWING RITUALISITIC WORSHIP OF GOD
in fact the calamities caused a zealous return to the ritual worship at the temple, but their hearts weren't in it.

1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateS: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].

They have a form of worship but deny the power thereof. God doesn't want a form of worship, He wants a life that is dedicated to righteousness and love for God.

GOD'S SOLUTION -- HIS CLEANSING

1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

That is true for all ages, it's the call of the gospel -- come to Christ, He will cleanse you, He will give you righteousness,
IF YOU ARE WILLING AND OBEDIENT
Yes, that is condition for all God's blessings.

You can count on it --
If we are willing and obedient -- TO GOD, (not to men who teach deceptions) If we are willing and obedient to God, He promises to wash us, cleanse us, for His heavenly kingdom.

But lets get back to Isaiah
even though many applications to modern times can be made, remember --
Isaiah is writing "concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of" their ancient kings.


1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loves gifts, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come unto them.

Sin was a big problem.


1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

God would allow punishment to come to them, but it was to re-establish, not to wipe out Israel.

God's promise -- the covenant promise -- is the coming of a Savior, through Abrabam's seed. Through Abraham all the earth would be blessed

People get so carried away with a small piece of land, that they miss the TRUE covenant promise. The promise of a Savior!

Christ was to be born of the tribe of Judah -- but if the whole kingdom of Israel and Judah forsook God, how could the Messiah be born to them? Or if they were totally destroyed and not restored, how could the messiah be born to them?

THUS WITH THE PROPHECY OF COMING DESTRUCTION COME PROMISES OF RESTORATION

1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

When were these judges restored?
It was actually part of the degree that marked the beginning of the 490 years!

Ezra 7:25 And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that [are] beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

The appeal is that after this would be a righteous and faithful city;

They would be given 490 years --
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks (490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


BUT FIRST THE DESTRUCTION

1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners [shall be] together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench [them].

And so Jerusalem, with Solomon's temple perished.
But not without the hope of restoration.


Chapter 2

2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Again the word is concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
These verses contain the promise that indeed the Messiah WOULD be born to them.
The promise would be fulfilled

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,

How was it exalted in the last days of the 490 years?
The Son of God came and dwelt with them!!
The living presence of One in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily,—who was God himself manifest in the flesh; the “Desire of all nations” had indeed come to his city.

The whole Jewish economy pointed to the Savior. His gift of salvation was exalted as the "way" the "truth" and the "life". No other religion can equal it.


and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.



Acts 2:4 And they (the disciples) were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.



Thus -- in spite of the Jews as a nation, rejecting their KING, God's promises did not fail.

He fulfilled them through the Jewish people who did accept Him.

BUT NOW NOTICE A SHIFT IN THE PROPHECY.

It's no longer God speaking --
It's many people talking.

Just where in the prophecy did this shift begin?

Christ came to Jerusalem and the veiled glory of heaven rested upon that place. Salvation was ratified and freely offered to all who were willing. The kingdom of Grace established, and the gospel went out from Jerusalem to the nations.

But somehow a shift takes place.

2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

The "many people" say they will walk in the Lord's ways, and beat their swords into ploughshares, and learn war no more. But while they may well "say" this, and tell each other, "Come ye, let us go and do," yet we know from scripture that they didn't and won't give up their swords and spears, (guns and bombs). Sure they will cry peace. But the actual practice will be the direct opposite, as we read in Joel that God says, the ploughshares will be turned into swords, until the coming of the Lord brings His wrath upon the angry nations.

The verses don't say that the people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place.

That it is only a sham, an outward thing, and not real worship to God is indicated by the next four verses.

2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
2:7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither [is there any] end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither [is there any] end of their chariots:
2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

Could they be saying "peace and safety" as they head for old Jerusalem, and then suddenly, like a thief in the night, when they are unprepared, destruction from the Almighty shall come upon them. Read the remainder of Isaiah 2.

In verse 5, the people are saying come let's go worship
Verse 6 Therefore the Lord has forsaken them.

It seems like, after the rejection of the Messiah, that people are focused on a counterfeit kingdom in Jerusalem, because God isn't pleased with their "saying" let's go to that mountain.

Ded- And all your cry about God not being faithful if He doesn't expect us all to flock to Palestine is just a straw man, that doesn't hold up.
God's promises are FAR GREATER than that.

We'll see where the "truth" holds up, we'll see.


TIME AND SITUATION BEING ADDRESSED:

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Ded- Notice this is "concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of" their ancient kings.

Yes, we notice that, but that does not mean that Isaiah was speaking only to them. Remember that Inspiration says that Isaiah (and all the other OT prophets) spoke LESS for their time and MORE for ours.

So what does that mean? it means that their words apply for us more than to their time. So each verse and promise is MORE applicable to us than those of Isaiah's time.

What you miss is that Isaiah 1:1-14 is applicable not only to those people back then but to us today (even more so as Inspiration says)!

The same principle applies that God's people are doing an abomination in their lifestyle and worship TODAY.

Who can deny that this verse is not applicable for His remnant church today?--"Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.(Verse 4)

Ded- GOD'S SOLUTION -- HIS CLEANSING

1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Ded- That is true for all ages, it's the call of the gospel -- come to Christ, He will cleanse you, He will give you righteousness,
IF YOU ARE WILLING AND OBEDIENT
Yes, that is condition for all God's blessings.

Of course this is true.

Ded- People get so carried away with a small piece of land, that they miss the TRUE covenant promise. The promise of a Savior!

Dedication gets carried away. The WORD of the LORD does not.

Not only do we find the clear promise (unconditional) in Isaiah 2:2-3. We find it repeated in Micah 4:1-3, let us look at both Inspired promises and see how close and pinpoint they are to each other.

Isaiah 2:2-3--

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."



Micah 4:1-3 --

"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

Now here is the big problem for Dedication. She has to use the term "last days" to apply to the end of the 490 years or to the new earth time period. ONE BIG PROBLEM. Nowhere in Scripture or SOP do we find the term "last days" or "latter days" even referring to the period she is claiming( 490 years) or new earth period.

Here is her justification --
Ded- They would be given 490 years --
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks (490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

But we'll discuss Daniel 9:24 shortly

(But I think because she has been exposed on her new earth application she has withdrawn any more talk of that :-)

Ok, let's get back to her report.

1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loves gifts, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come unto them.

Again, as we pointed out Isaiah did indeed speak to his people, and the above verses are evidence of that No dis-agreement here.

But this is applicable today as well--

"Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loves gifts, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come unto them." (verse 23)

Concerning verses 1:24-31, I have no problem with the application for the times of Isaiah.

However verses such as below, certainly have application to our day, in that they point to a redeeming and cleaning that the Lord will do to His people.

1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

You see, the Lord has many in our church today that speak "smooth things" effectively lullabying the people to sleep. EGW in many places goes into this, as we all know. These people are His "enemies" as they are scattering rather than gathering His flock to be ready for His judgments to begin in the church (1 Peter 4:17) )(Testimonies, vol. 5, p.211-12)

Ded- 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Again the word is concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Not wholly true. These words apply certainly to us today as we'll explain further.

Ded- 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,

How was it exalted in the last days of the 490 years?
The Son of God came and dwelt with them!!
The living presence of One in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily,—who was God himself manifest in the flesh; the “Desire of all nations” had indeed come to his city.

Dedication is missing one important word here--established.

In no way shape or form did our Lord "establish" His house at that time. No, in fact the Jews still ran Jerusalem, as we Bible students certainly know. Our Lord was officially considered an "outcast" and could no more establish His house then as Buddhism can establish it's house in Israel today!

and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Dedication then goes on to attempt to explain that DA, p.621, Acts 2:4-6 show that the "nations" of the world flowed to His established house in Jerusalem.Remember the prophecy calls for "ALL nations to go to the House of Jacob" the house that is exalted above all houses there in Jerusalem.

Her quotes point to some people going to see the Lord and his disciples yet this in no way is "ALL nations". Further the Jews and Romans controlled Jerusalem during and after Jesus' time.

Let us keep in mind that His house certainly was not established. The Jews still remained the established house of worship in Jerusalem after Christ. History bears this out.

For good measure let's look at the word "established" as defined in dictionary--

es·tab·lished
iˈstabliSHt/Submit
adjective
1.
having been in existence for a long time and therefore recognized and generally accepted.

So to make the interpretation true, we mus read it as it states. "Shall be established" which certainly did not happen in Jerusalem. In 70 AD the whole place crashed, no establishment at all.

Remember these verses are in context, showing that it happens when the Lord removes the weapons of war (Isaiah 2:4) All the weapons of war existed in Jesus' time and after.

As far as Isaiah 2:4 goes, let's look at it.

Isa. 2:4 -- "And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Not the nations, but Inspiration Itself declares that in the day God judges the living, then those nations who go to the mountain (Kingdom church purified) of the Lord "shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks" -- they will go farming instead of spending their strength in war.

The nations that do not accept the Lord's "rebuke," in that day, though, will madly arise against the "mountain" of the Lord, as forecast by the prophet Joel, saying:

"Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about." Joel 3:9- 12.


Bottom line

Each of the prophets, including Isaiah spoke more for us. And when we view Scripture with this Inspiration within our understanding, we see clearly what the intention and lesson is for us.

Isa. 2:5 -- "O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

Because the church greatly needs this light, the light that now illuminates the Judgment Day, the Lord makes the foregone plea to the antitypical "house of Jacob," the house in which are the 144,000 Jacobites, the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel, who down through the ages became assimilated by the Gentile nations, and thus lost their racial identity.

The Lord's concern, that the church walk in the light of the Lord (in Inspiration's light for today) definitely implies that she is not now walking in His light; and His command, found in the last verse of Isaiah's chapter, clearly reveals that she is walking in the sparks of uninspired men. The Lord, therefore, commands:

Isa. 2:22 -- "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?"

The reason that her members should immediately cease from men is told in the verses that follow:

Isa. 3:1-4 -- "For, behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water, the mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, the captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator. And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them."

For over a century we as Seventh-day Adventists have been preaching the work of the Judgment for the Dead, and should now with ease see that when the Judgment for the Living begins it is to separate the saints from the sinners -- the wheat from the tares (Matt. 13:30), the good fish from the bad fish (Matt. 13:47, 48), the sheep from the goats (Matt. 25:32-46), the wise virgins from the foolish ones (Matt. 25:1-13).

Yes, it applies to Israel and Judah in the days of the ancient kings--and there are applications that reach far beyond that, I have never denied that.
However, when we have prophecies of that nature not every detail applies to both applications.


GLL: What you miss is that Isaiah 1:1-14 is applicable not only to those people back then but to us today (even more so as Inspiration says)!

No, I haven't missed that, in fact I have notebooks full of my devotional studies applying Isaiah to our day.
Yet by comparing the prophecies with the NEW Testament application we realize a heaven like "kingdom" on earth will not take place till all things are made new in the New Earth.


GLL: Who can deny that this verse is not applicable for His remnant church today?--Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward

I haven't denied that corruption is found in the church.
And I believe the Lord will shake the church by allowing persecution and trouble to come to it and weed out the uncommitted. In fact, from my studies it appears the majority will denounce their faith and then turn on those who continue in the faith.
What I don't believe is that God will mysteriously cause all Adventists to suddenly die. He didn't do that to the Israel nation in the ancient days, and He won't do that now.

Isaiah is prophesying trouble for ancient Israel -- how did it come? (Babylonian persecution)
Trouble will come to the church in modern times, (Babylonian persecution) and it will come from people, the same as it did for ancient Israel.


GOD'S SOLUTION -- HIS CLEANSING

1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Ded- That is true for all ages, it's the call of the gospel -- come to Christ, He will cleanse you, He will give you righteousness,
IF YOU ARE WILLING AND OBEDIENT
Yes, that is condition for all God's blessings.

Of course this is true.

Ded- People get so carried away with a small piece of land, that they miss the TRUE covenant promise. The promise of a Savior!

GLL: Dedication gets carried away. The WORD of the LORD does not.

You are a human being just like me -- you are NOT the WORD. Nor is your interpretation infallible.

And sadly I notice your rapid departure from the promise of a Savior back to that little war torn, sinful piece of property in the middle east, and your attempts to prove these scriptures that you quote mean a HUMAN king will rule over a little kingdom over there that supposedly is to be God's kingdom, prior to the second coming, and prior to the earth made new.



GLL: Not only do we find the clear promise (unconditional) in Isaiah 2:2-3. We find it repeated in Micah 4:1-3, let us look at both Inspired promises and see how close and pinpoint they are to each other.

Yes they are similar. It's the same prophecy. But that is not the point. The way one interprets the first is the same as the way one interprets the second.

Isaiah 2:2-3--

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."


GLL; Now here is the big problem for Dedication. She has to use the term "last days" to apply to the end of the 490 years or to the new earth time period. ONE BIG PROBLEM. Nowhere in Scripture or SOP do we find the term "last days" or "latter days" even referring to the period she is claiming( 490 years) or new earth period.

That is when they apply. There is NO problem at all.

Notice Acts 2 Peter is applying a "last days" prophecy to the end of the 490 years (his time).
Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh

And notice Paul in the epistle to the Hebrews again applies the words "last days" to the end of the 490 years.
1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Had in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son,

"The seventy weeks, or 490 years, especially allotted to the Jews, ended, as we have seen, in A. D. 34. At that time, through the action of the Jewish Sanhedrim, the nation sealed its rejection of the gospel, by the martyrdom of Stephen and the persecution of the followers of Christ." GC 328

Read chapter 59 in Prophets and Kings
I quoted whole sections of it earlier, but you won't even consider that chapter.
Pulling one quote out of the middle of it without considering the full context causes you to miss the intent.

Yes,
Israel were given 490 years following their return to their land after the Babylonian exile.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks (490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

It all points to "the last days" of those years, when Messiah would come to them and make reconciliation for iniquity by His death on the cross, and offer everlasting righteousness through the power of the gospel. He confirmed the covenant of salvation!
The light of the gospel was to go out in power to all nations! Had the nation accepted Christ, they would have been the light of the world.

Yet -- the gospel DID go out from Jerusalem. It did go out to the Gentiles. And for a time Jerusalem WAS the center point from which that glorious message of salvation went out.
God fulfilled His promise with the "remnant" of Israel, that believed.



GLL: (But I think because she has been exposed on her new earth application she has withdrawn any more talk of that

NEVER!!!!
The New Earth application is the crowning promise of all these messages. Praise God!!!

Never would I withdraw my belief in that!

It is the grand and final fulfilment!!!

How was it exalted in the last days of the 490 years?
The Son of God came and dwelt with them!!
The living presence of One in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily,—who was God himself manifest in the flesh; the “Desire of all nations” had indeed come to his city.

GLL writes: Dedication is missing one important word here--established
In no way shape or form did our Lord "establish" His house at that time. No, in fact the Jews still ran Jerusalem, as we Bible students certainly know. Our Lord was officially considered an "outcast" and could no more establish His house then as Buddhism can establish it's house in Israel today!

Again your focus is on that little piece of land and not on the Savior of our Salvation -- the Savior of the world.
Just like the Jews of old who "expected the Messiah to prove His claims by mighty deeds of conquest, to establish His empire on the ruins of earthly kingdoms. This expectation Christ answered in the parable of the sower. Not by force of arms, not by violent interpositions, was the kingdom of God to prevail, but by the implanting of a new principle in the hearts of men." {COL 34.4}

So how did Christ establish His kingdom?


Yes, Christ established the kingdom of grace.
He did NOT fail in His purposes of the kingdom He came to establish.
He confirmed the covenant with His own blood by which we are saved.
He provided the means by which that kingdom of grace is established.


And yes, there will be the kingdom of glory.
It will be on the New Earth, with the New Jerusalem as its capital.
And all who have, by the power of the Holy Spirit had that kingdom established in their lives, will then be invited into that glorious eternal literal kingdom.

The important thing now is to have that kingdom established within by the grace and power of the Holy spirit.







GLL: and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Dedication then goes on to attempt to explain that DA, p.621, Acts 2:4-6 show that the "nations" of the world flowed to His established house in Jerusalem. Remember the prophecy calls for "ALL nations to go to the House of Jacob" the house that is exalted above all houses there in Jerusalem.

Acts 2:4 reads:
"devout men, out of every nation under heaven."

This means that "every nation" must of had representatives there in Jerusalem to hear the gospel message.

But again, this was plan "B" not plan "A" -- God fulfilled His part of the promise, the nation failed to fulfill it's end of the covenant. Thus it couldn't be the light to world in the full sense God was offering this privilege to them.
It was only a remnant that shared the kingdom of grace message to those who came to Jerusalem, and then went out into all nations carrying the good news of the kingdom of grace to world.

Read again chapter 59 in Prophets and Kings.

It seems in your interpretations the "kingdom" must be a religious/political identity with a geographic location, -- but the "mountain of the Lord" can be a spiritual kingdom. Indeed something like 90 percent of Christ's references to His kingdom were spiritual, the rest being the kingdom of glory when He comes in the full glory of heaven.





GLL wrote: Remember these verses are in context, showing that it happens when the Lord removes the weapons of war (Isaiah 2:4) All the weapons of war existed in Jesus' time and after.
As far as Isaiah 2:4 goes, let's look at it.
Isa. 2:4 -- "And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
those nations who go to the mountain (Kingdom church purified) of the Lord "shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks" -- they will go farming instead of spending their strength in war.


But the text doesn't say it's only those in the purified "kingdom" that get rid of their weapons, it says He will judge among nations and "nation shall not lift up sword against nation"

yet you then quote that nations WILL lift up weapons against nations. So that explanation doesn't make sense.

Though if I were to follow your reasoning and apply it to the last days of the 490 years, then it's easy to see that the apostolic church did NOT use swords, might or power as they went out to establish the gospel of grace in the nations. And indeed they rebuked sin and violence, and those who listened didn't use weapons to convert people, but the "enemies" and "apostates" most certainly did.

Ded- I haven't denied that corruption is found in the church.

No one accuse of denying that. I am accusing you of ignoring how God used Isaiah to prophesies more for us than for his day. And that means ALL of it. What we need to do is look at it from Inspirations point of view not ours.When we see promises such as Isaiah 2:2-3 we need to take it as applying to us, first and foremost. This is what Inspiration counsels us to do.

Ded- What I don't believe is that God will mysteriously cause all Adventists to suddenly die. He didn't do that to the Israel nation in the ancient days, and He won't do that now.

Of course you don't believe it. The angels have recorded it as well.

"Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God.The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the
spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed.

These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together. {5T 211.2}

Ded-Notice Acts 2 Peter is applying a "last days" prophecy to the end of the 490 years (his time).

We are aware of that application however, as we Bible students know there is many times a dual or double application to verses such as Joel of which peter quotes.

The rest of your argument is weak due to the fact that you cannot escape this sound reason as already mentioned. here is why Isaiah 2:2-3 must apply in future--

Dedication is missing one important word here--established.

In no way shape or form did our Lord "establish" His house at that time. No, in fact the Jews still ran Jerusalem, as we Bible students certainly know. Our Lord was officially considered an "outcast" and could no more establish His house then as Buddhism can establish it's house in Israel today!

and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Dedication then goes on to attempt to explain that DA, p.621, Acts 2:4-6 show that the "nations" of the world flowed to His established house in Jerusalem.Remember the prophecy calls for "ALL nations to go to the House of Jacob" the house that is exalted above all houses there in Jerusalem.

Her quotes point to some people going to see the Lord and his disciples yet this in no way is "ALL nations". Further the Jews and Romans controlled Jerusalem during and after Jesus' time.

Let us keep in mind that His house certainly was not established. The Jews still remained the established house of worship in Jerusalem after Christ. History bears this out.

For good measure let's look at the word "established" as defined in dictionary--

es·tab·lished
iˈstabliSHt/Submit
adjective
1.
having been in existence for a long time and therefore recognized and generally accepted.

So to make the interpretation true, we must read it as it states. "Shall be established" which certainly did not happen in Jerusalem. In 70 AD the whole place crashed, no establishment at all.

Makes no sense to say God's house was established above the other houses in Jerusalem during or after Jesus.

Remember these verses are in context, showing that it happens when the Lord removes the weapons of war (Isaiah 2:4) All the weapons of war existed in Jesus' time and after.

To really nail down this time period Dedication would have to admit that the weapons of Isaiah 2:4 did not transform as the Lord promised He would do. Certainly not during His time or even after it!

So that leaves us with a prophecy yet to be fulfilled, as we have said all along.

"The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spiritual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers." (GC, p.598)

Well, you can continue to place your hopes in a human king ruling in a human kingdom and call that God's kingdom.


I'll place my hopes in a Savior, who plants His kingdom of Grace within, and fits us for that heavenly kingdom.

I just feel terrible sorry for all you will lead into Satan's camp.
That's the only reason I put as much effort into this as I have.

And its very, very likely your beliefs will lead many SR people into taking things into their hands, believing that God has instructed them to do so.
After all, there are plenty of OT scripture that would support it.
Especially as the Sunday laws become reality and they realize those terrible Adventists are still around, hindering their flight into the imaginary kingdom of Palestine.

Ded-I just feel terrible sorry for all you will lead into Satan's camp.
That's the only reason I put as much effort into this as I have.

********************************

Likewise I feel "sorry" for you as well. And ,again I do put forth a effort to show you your errors.

Now, let us understand what INSPIRATION clearly is saying.

Do you see how your understanding of Isaiah 2:2-3 cannot be true? It is impossible to place it prior, during, or after Christ's day. It can be only applicable to our future time.

For the plain fact that in context verse 4 dis-allows your time periods. --"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

Nations surely did/does practice war since Isaiah's time.

"I have been shown that the greatest reason why the people of God are now found in this state of spiritual blindness is that they will not receive correction." (Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

That will be reality ONLY in the earth made new.
Nations will continue to war until Christ's second coming, and they will take up their war again as soon as they are raised after the 1000 years. Only after the cleansing fire and earth is made new, will it be true that nations shall learn war NO MORE!

The first application of the prophecy took place at Christ's first coming (at the end of the 490 years) when He came to establish the kingdom of grace -- and that kingdom of grace did "come out of Jerusalem" for that is where Christ died, rose, and commissioned His disciples to GO and teach all nations (Matt 28:20) That is where the Holy Spirit was poured out on Christ's followers and they went forth with boldness declaring the kingdom of GRACE to all nations.

And yes, Christ, through His Holy Spirit "shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people"


John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

Ded- That will be reality ONLY in the earth made new.
Nations will continue to war until Christ's second coming, and they will take up their war again as soon as they are raised after the 1000 years. Only after the cleansing fire and earth is made new, will it be true that nations shall learn war NO MORE!

Isn't it truly amazing how Dedication likes to point out how we must read things in "context" yet when the situation fits her agenda, she denies context.

Here is the complete context of Inspiration --

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."


I've underlined the connector--AND. this is from the King James version. Corroborated with many many other translations as well.

In reading it as we should , we see that during this time when the nations of the world shall flow into Jerusalem, God's law shall be exalted and flow from the Holy land. At this same time the nations shall not learn war anymore.

Dedication then goes on to tell God what He can and cannot say. She says "That will be reality ONLY in the earth made new."

Again, let it be clear. Dedication cannot and never will be able to show from Inspiration that "last days" mean the time of the New Earth. This is nothing more than private interpretation, which as we know is forbidden in God's word (2 Peter 1:20).

Summary

In the final analysis, we can choose private interpretations with it's twists and turns away from the clear straight word of God, or we can "Take the Bible as it reads", meaning that God will establish a sort of world headquarters in Jerusalem in the "last days" where many people shall flow to and get God's real word. This will be the "Great Controversy" for it happens in the time that Satan is "wroth with the Woman" and goes to make war with God's people via his own army of false and un-converted multitudes.

This "war" is spiritual as opposed to mankind's war with weapons. God does not let that happen any more as Isaiah 2:4 says. Everything during this time is about God vs. Satan. Mankind's foolish games (war, money, lusts) take a back seat to the reality that God has arrived with His "battle axe"--

"Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;" (Jer.51:20)

During this time Satan is forming his collation in the world--to establish his counterfiet kingdom. he can't stand that God's 144,000 are convicting many in the world , because God is with His servants and they are doing miracles and wonders that is making front page news. The Sunday keepers are mixed. Some believe and are converted to the Sabbath and others don't.

"The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." (GC p. 598)

Here is the complete context of Inspiration --

2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

As we noted, this is concerning Judah and Jerusalem (in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah vs. 1:1)

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
Shown several times now -- the "last days" of Judah and Jerusalem's time of probation -- ie -- the 490 years.

“The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,” had been their message. At the expiration of “the time”—the sixty-nine weeks of Daniel 9, which were to extend to the Messiah, “the Anointed One”—Christ had received the anointing of the Spirit, after his baptism by John in Jordan. And the “kingdom of God” which they had declared to be at hand, was established by the death of Christ. GC 346

that] the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it

“Christ's work was largely confined to Judea. But though his personal ministry did not extend to other lands, people from all nations listened to his teaching, and carried the message to all parts of the world. Many heard of Jesus by hearing of the wonderful miracles that he performed. And the knowledge of his suffering and death, which were to be witnessed by the large number in attendance at the Passover, would be spread from Jerusalem to all parts of the world. (RH Oct. 26,1897)

God's plan for Israel --
They were to be the light of the world.
And in many ways they were --
Christ, the Son of God, came to them establishing the kingdom of grace, and from Jerusalem that glorious message went out to the world.
But Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace.

But now to the "last days" of our history

continued from last post:

Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace, wanting only a kingdom of honor over nations.

In the "last days" of our history, things haven't changed, people still want a temporal kingdom rather than the kingdom of grace.

2:2- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

and

Micah 4:1-5.
"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."



Who is it that shall say these things?—

"Many nations [Isa. "Many people"]

So who is saying these things exactly?
Is it God, or is it "many nations" and "many people"?

In the last days then many people shall say that "the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." In the last days many people shall say, The nations "shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning-hooks." In the last days many people shall say that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

In the last days many people shall say, "they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid." And, too, they will say that "the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." All these things many people will say in the last days.

Apparently, these prophets are predicting the counterfeit establishment of Christianity over the nations.

God's purposes will be counterfeited.
How do we come to such a conclusion?
Well, yes, read the CONTEXT!

First, these scripture do not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place. They will say it is what God said.

They establish "Christianity" over the mountains and hills -- that is taking control over governments and religion.
It is the political/religious counterfeit mountain in the name of the Lord.

That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outward thing, and not the real kingdom of grace established by Christ, is indicated by the next four verses, which say:-

"Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots; their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made; and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive them not." Isaiah 2:6-9


THEREFORE --

What is that "therefore" at the beginning, referring back to --
It's referring back to the verses where the PEOPLE are saying all these wonderful things!!!

So why does this say

Therefore?
Therefore thou (referring to God) hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob???


These verses show that while the people profess that they know God, in works they deny him. They will be worshiping something of their own creation.

In a counterfeit establishment of worship -- the standard of what true Christianity is, is lowered, until it comes down to where the mass of the people are, and then they "worship" thinking they are "saving the world" by flowing into this established Christianity that has set itself above all "mountains" and "hills".

And what will be the final result?

The prophet Isaiah continues:
"Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low." "And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he arised to shake terribly the earth. In the day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefs of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake the terrible the earth." Isa. 2:10-12, 19-21.

The second coming --
Rev. 6:14-16 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


In that day of the Lord the earth shall be melted (2 Peter 3:10, 11; Isa. 24:19, 20), and sinners shall be destroyed out of it; "nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness." 2 Peter 2:13.

And when the earth is cleansed, then will be fulfilled the word of the Lord which is written: "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34); for "all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children." Isa. 54:13.

Ded- God's plan for Israel --
They were to be the light of the world.
And in many ways they were --
Christ, the Son of God, came to them establishing the kingdom of grace, and from Jerusalem that glorious message went out to the world.
But Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace.

Again we notice you stop at verse two instead of allowing the context to flow to the end of the reference which is verse 4, which obviously did not happen back in your time prediction. Men did not stop learning war anymore.

Before we touch more upon your untenable position, let's review something that you are incorrect on as well, here are your words--

Ded- What I don't believe is that God will mysteriously cause all Adventists to suddenly die. He didn't do that to the Israel nation in the ancient days, and He won't do that now.

"When God was about to smite the first-born of Egypt, He commanded the Israelites to gather their children from among the Egyptians into their own dwellings and strike their door posts with blood, that the destroying angel might see it and pass over their homes. It was the work of parents to gather in their children. This is your work, this is my work, and the work of every mother who believes the truth.

The angel is to place a mark upon the forehead of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel will follow, to slay utterly both old and young." {5T 505.2


"Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God.The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the
spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed.

These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together. {5T 211.2}

What I don't believe is that God will mysteriously cause all Adventists to suddenly die. He didn't do that to the Israel nation in the ancient days, and He won't do that now.

First off you took that sentence out of the context in which I wrote it, so you could place your own interpretations on my words.

As to the quotes --
What are those passages saying?

In 5T 505
EGW is writing to a mother who chose to send her daughter to a worldly school--
"where she will be associated with a worldly class who have no respect for God or His law, I ask you how you expect the Lord will work to counteract the evil influence that must surround her and which you have voluntarily chosen. Will He commission His angels to do the work which He has left for you to do?"

Then she refers to the plague in Egypt -- "God commanded the Israelites to gather their children from among the Egyptians into their own dwellings and strike their door posts with blood"

She continues by urging the mother to place her daughter in a situation where she will be influenced in spiritual things or she will be lost for eternity.

Next we come to the strawman that you built by taking my sentence out of the context in which it was written
implying that I am teaching that God will not judge.
But if you read it in context you should realize that is false.

There will be a judgment.
Those who are established in Christ, under the blood of His salvation, and walking with Him in paths of righteousness will be citizens of the HEAVENLY Jerusalem forever; while those who looked to human sources offering peace and pleasure and power will find themselves deceived and turn on their false leaders and all end up loosing not just this life, but life eternal.

-----

But now back to the first statement.

How was literal Israel destroyed in times past?

Over and over we see prophets warning them God would bring destruction upon them because of their sins.
There are many texts like this one:
Amos 2:3 "And I will cut off the judge from the midst thereof, and will slay all the princes thereof with him, saith the LORD."

But how did it happen?

It was by armies of other nations coming in to conquer and destroy.

And so it will be in the end.
The Ezekiel 9 latter day fulfilment will occur during the last plague when the deceived people, realizing they are lost will turn on the false shepherds. Indeed those leaders at the "sanctuary" will receive the first blow.
EGW explains her own words in GC 656.

Also at Christ's second coming all those who are not sealed by the Holy Spirit and gathered to meet Christ in the air, will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming.


The message that comes through loud and clear in her writing is that we need to gather under the saving blood of Christ NOW, today. We need to take our faith in Christ seriously today, now! We need to witness now, today.

The sealing in our foreheads is NOT
--old Jerusalem with a human king--

The sealing in our foreheads is

Rev. 3:12 I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The sealing is a settling into truth so we won't be moved by promises of counterfeit earthly kingdoms, solutions, power and peace.


"Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come.4BC 1161

And that shaking involves multitudes LEAVING the Adventist church, including many in influential leadership positions, to join earthly counterfeit "kingdoms" that seem to be offering solutions but aren't in line with God's will -- .

Not necessarily SR version -- however the SR message is undermining a foundational brick of Adventism and casting doubts in some Adventist people's minds which is preparing them to receive a counterfeit supposedly "righteous" "kingdom" here on earth.

But many will also hear and accept the truth and commit themselves fully to Christ and His precepts, (and not look to any earthly solution or kingdom, but wait for the coming of Christ in the clouds)

HUH???
I think you stopped reading at verse two as I went through the whole chapter of Isaiah Two.

Let us look at Isaiah 2:2-4 once again--

Verse 2--"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

Verse 3-"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."


Verse 4- (Verse 4)"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

As we have seen Dedication says the following--
1) The first and primary application of this Scripture is the end of the 490 years.
2) there is a second application of this scripture in the "new earth" period.

Now who among us can believe this? Really. if this is not false private interpretation I do not know what is!

First, the context of the verse show that this is fulfilled when the Lord shall make nations not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they "learn war any more."

No matter how much spin and private interpretation she tries to put on this Scripture , it cannot apply even to this day! Why? because as we see the Lord has not put an end to war among the nations!

Ah, but she comes back and says. "But this means the new earth". yet she has continually NOT provided any Scripture or SOP to show that the "last days" describes the --new earth. There is NO Scripture, nor SOP, in ALL of Inspiration that shows this.

******* STAFF EDIT *******

The word of God is plain. he will establish His house "from Jerusalem" where His "Law" will go out and "many nations shall come" to His house in Jerusalem, and nations will not "learn war any more."

My brethren this can only be --pre-millennial, the time of the Loud Cry. Most notably because Inspiration says it is in the "last days". These days cannot be the end of 490 years as Dedication spins it, neither the "new earth".

If that is only my interpretation (which it isn't)and all the wonderful promises of "no war, no tears, no more destruction etc. will not be fulfilled in the New Earth, then all our hope is DEAD.

But praise God -- it is not just my interpretation -- it is the truth found in the New Testament and in EGW's writings.

This is the explanation of the rest of Isaiah two.
Which is NOT my explanation
It was taught during all the years that EGW was alive, and not just by one or two, but you can find quite a number of SDA pioneers teaching it over the years.

I've already posted it several times.

This is chapter is actually a warning of the COUNTERFEIT kingdom!







In the "last days" of our history, things haven't changed, people still want a temporal kingdom rather than the kingdom of grace.

Here are the two almost identical passages under discussion -- and please pay close attention as to WHO is talking.
GLL says it is God talking, but look again.





OKAY WHO IS TALKING?

Who is it that shall say these things?—

We read:
many people shall go and say....we will...let us....

Many nations shall go and say ...we will...we will...

So who is saying these things exactly?
Is it God, or is it "many nations" and "many people"?

In the last days then many people shall say that "the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." In the last days many people shall say, The nations "shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning-hooks." In the last days many people shall say that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

In the last days many people shall say, "they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid." And, too, they will say that "the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." All these things many people will say in the last days.

Apparently, these prophets are predicting the counterfeit establishment of Christianity over the nations.

Notice it even includes the ecumenical concept of diversity of "gods" and that all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God.

This is the people talking about creating the utopic counterfeit kingdom in which they expect to end war and bring in peace.

God's purposes will be counterfeited.
How do we come to such a conclusion?
Well, yes, read the CONTEXT!

First, these scripture do not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place. They will say it is what God said.

They establish "Christianity" over the mountains and hills -- that is taking control over governments and religion.
It is the political/religious counterfeit mountain in the name of the Lord.

That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outward thing, and not the real kingdom of grace established by Christ, is indicated by the next four verses, which say:-



THEREFORE --

What is that "therefore" at the beginning of verse six, referring back to --
It's referring back to the verses where the PEOPLE are saying all these wonderful things!!!

So when we follow the flow of the verses we must ask, why does this say

Therefore?
Therefore thou (referring to God) hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob???


These verses show that while the people profess that they know God, in works they deny him. They will be worshiping something of their own creation.

In a counterfeit establishment of worship -- the standard of what true Christianity is, is lowered, until it comes down to where the mass of the people are, and then they "worship" thinking they are "saving the world" putting an end to the strife by flowing into this established Christianity that has set itself above all "mountains" and "hills".

And what will be the final result?

The prophet Isaiah continues:



This corresponds to
The second coming --
Rev. 6:14-16 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


In that day of the Lord the earth shall be melted (2 Peter 3:10, 11; Isa. 24:19, 20), and sinners shall be destroyed out of it; "nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness." 2 Peter 2:13.

And when the earth is cleansed, then will be fulfilled the word of the Lord which is written: "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34); for "all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children." Isa. 54:13.

From a sermon preached in 1888 by Waggonner

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them."

This refers to a time when men will not simply be predicting peace and safety, but will proclaim that it has actually come. For many years men have been teaching that a temporal millennium of perfect peace and righteousness would precede the coming of the Lord.
The members of the National Reform Association say that when Christianity is recognized and enforced by law, then the millennium will have come, and that wars, famines, and pestilence will cease.
In the National Reform Convention held at Monmouth, Ill., Sept. 29, 1884, and reported in the Christian Statesman of November 6, M. A. Gault said:- {December 7, 1888 EJW, SITI 747.3}
"We do not flatter ourselves when we say that the glorious millennial day will be ushered in by the triumph of this movement." {December 7, 1888 EJW, SITI 747.4}

So when they shall have gained their object, the Scripture will be fulfilled, which says: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isa. 2:2-4.

Thus they will be saying, "Peace and safety," and then suddenly, like a thief in the night, when they are unprepared, destruction from the Almighty shall come upon them. Read the remainder of Isaiah 2. {December 7, 1888 EJW, SITI 747.5}

Ded- OKAY WHO IS TALKING?

Who is it that shall say these things?—

We read:
many people shall go and say....we will...let us....

Many nations shall go and say ...we will...we will...

So who is saying these things exactly?
Is it God, or is it "many nations" and "many people"?


Ded- In the last days then many people shall say that "the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." In the last days many people shall say, The nations "shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning-hooks." In the last days many people shall say that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

The underlined part is a falsehood by you, Dedication. The people do not say this--read your Bible. YOU say they say that but they are not quoted there as you have done.

People read the Scripture NOT Dedication's spin on them.

Read your Bible. The King James version shows the people saying"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of Jacob;He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths." -- END OF QUOTE.

The people do not speak the rest of the Scripture as you claim they do. The words "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word from Jerusalem." and-- "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" -- Is not spoken by the "people" rather by God through Isaiah.

******* STAFF EDIT *******

"Ignorance and self-sufficiency go hand in hand."(RH, June 17, 1890)

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law.

Scripture says "many people shall go and say......

Besides it's not my interpretation --
You'll find it all through Adventist teachings.

God's intended place for the nation of Israel was that they be the light to world, the nation showing forth the law of God.

God keep His promise for the scripture was fulfilled at Christ's first Advent to which everything pointed -- the gospel did go forth from Jerusalem. Acts 2:5 does show that people from every nation under heaven were in Jerusalem as the Holy Spirit was poured out and the message was preached with power.

But the promises of national blessings were conditional and thus could not be placed upon the nation.

However, like with natural Israel at the time of Moses, the promises will now be counterfeited, but it is not of God.

Israel was to go into the promised land but failed,
Then they decided to go in on their own strength and disaster resulted.

To go to Palestine thinking it is God's will, is doing exactly what they did back then and it will result in disaster.

The land is declared "desolate" until the consummation. (Dan.9)
But many people, many nations will say -- let's go

Yes, read the entire chapter -- it is NOT God speaking

Ded- And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law.

Perhaps you are not being attentive, but look at what you wrote. Again, you do not quote scripture as it is written. Where is the "..."?

When it says "Come ye, and let us go... walk in His paths." END OF QUOTE.

The prior verse Isaiah 2:2 is God speaking through Isaiah, and the remainer of verse 3 is God speaking through Isaiah. The people are quoted exactly what they are quoted, no more or less.

In your words above you try and pawn it off as if the "people" are saying, --"For out of Zion shall go forth the Law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem," and "..Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war nay more."

As far as your other explanations , let's stick to this point about Isaiah 2:2-4 and clear it first. I will go over later more of your past words to show your position that this reference pertained to the 490 years and even the preposterous position which you said--a later application to the new earth period.

I quoted the text as it was written, (several times already, from two different books of the Bible) yet you try to say I did not.

Yes, where are "...." you ascribed to me? There were no "...." when I was quoting the actual texts.


It's very obvious from the text (as it reads) that it is THE PEOPLE TALKING.

Basic English grammar confirms this.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Please notice
It is the people talking

They keep saying "LET US" "WE WILL" showing it is still the people talking all through verse 3-5.

They refer to God as "he".

They refer to their enemies as "they" and believe God will rebuke them (other nations) and cause "them" that is their enemies, to beat their swords into plowshares.

This is not God speaking, this the people speaking.
Any English grammar teacher will confirm that.

So yes it is the people saying everything in those verses.

These people THINK they are building God's kingdom.


In verse 6 there is a change in "voice".
It is no more the "US" and "WE" voice.

Now Isaiah is speaking
saying
Therefore "Thou" referring to God
hast forsaken "them"
referring to the people who were talking in verses 3-5.

Why has God forsaken them.

Because they be replenished from east (false religious ideas??) southsayers (false prophets???)

And what is so preposterous in saying the absence of war will be realized on this earth ONLY when the earth is made new? The idea that it will happen before is not scriptural.


Scripture says:
"When they cry peace and safety than sudden destruction will come upon them" 1 Thess. 5:3

Scripture shows the kings of the earth with their armies making war right up to Christ's coming (See Rev. 19)

When they THINK they have established a temporal kingdom of peace and safety --- destruction will come.
"when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."



Though what may be true -- those who continue to look for their peace and safety in a temporal, pre-second coming, earthly kingdom, with a human (or unclean spirit impersonating someone) king, may never experience the true eternal NEW earth kingdom of no more war, pain, sickness, death, of the new earth. The devil wants us to think such a kingdom is preposterous.

Please don't trade the real glorious eternal kingdom which Christ's redemption bought for us, for this temporal, earthly, counterfeit, illusion of a kingdom.

Ded- I quoted the text as it was written, (several times already, from two different books of the Bible) yet you try to say I did not.

Let us see if what she said is true. here is what she quoted. Pay attention to details. If the quotation marks are missing, that means we don't know what the "people" really say. here it is--

So when they shall have gained their object, the Scripture will be fulfilled, which says: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isa. 2:2-4.

When deception comes in , it does it very sneaky. For example , when Dedication quotes Isaiah 2:2-4 notice this part that she quotes--

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord..."

Do you see a quotation mark starting with..
"Come ye.." and ending with.. "and we shall walk in His paths." ? NO we don't. She does not show it, why? Because she want us to believe that the rest of the verse is what the people say! Deception my brethren and it is sneaky , watch out for her tricks.

The bottomline is that the LORD through Isaiah says that "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

Why is this important? Because Dedication has been found in error by trying to tell us that Isaiah 2:2-4 is in the 490 year period in OT and/or it applies to the new earth period. Both cannot be sustained by Scripture!

The Bible flatly says that people in the "last days" our time, shall go to Jerusalem and receive the "Law" from the Lord and there will learn war no more.

This shall happen AFTER Ezekiel 9 church purification.

He will also use every possible device to unsettle our faith in God and in the truths of his Word. If we have not a deep experience in the things of God, if we have not a thorough knowledge of his Word, we shall be beguiled to our ruin by the errors and sophistries of the enemy. False doctrines will sap the foundations of many, because they have not learned to discern truth from error. Our only safeguard against the wiles of Satan is to study the Scriptures diligently, to have an intelligent understanding of the reasons of our faith, and faithfully to perform every known duty.(RH, Nov.19, 1908)

Point number one:

The Bible has no quotation marks in the original.
Any quotation marks added are the result of much later editing.

The accusation actually falls back on GLL --
Putting quotation marks where he thinks they should go.
Or copying the translation of some dispensationalist Bible translation that took it upon themselves to add quotation marks.
There are no quotation marks, commas, periods etc. in the original.

The only way to determine who says what is to carefully look for the grammatical "VOICE" in the passage.


Basic English grammar confirms that VERSES 3-5 are all in the "WE/US" voice showing it is the people speaking.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Please notice
It is the people talking

They keep saying "LET US" "WE WILL" showing it is still the people talking all through verse 3-5.

They refer to God as "he".

They refer to their enemies as "they" and believe God will rebuke them (other nations) and cause "them" that is their enemies, to beat their swords into plowshares.

This is not God speaking, this is the people speaking.
Any English grammar teacher will confirm that.

So yes it is the people saying everything in those verses.

These people THINK they are building God's kingdom.


In verse 6 there is a change in "voice".
It is no more the "US" and "WE" voice.

Now Isaiah is speaking
saying
Therefore "Thou" referring to God
hast forsaken "them"
referring to the people who were talking in verses 3-5.

Why has God forsaken them.

Because they be replenished from east (false religious ideas??) southsayers (false prophets???)

Now notice -- these many people say --

"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

They are saying the nations will not learn war any more.

BUT scripture shows something very different for at Christ's second coming:
Rev. 19:19 the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse,


This passage (as well as it's equivalent in Micah 4) tell us that there will be a counterfeit kingdom gathering in the "mount of the Lord" just before Christ comes, but it does not go well with them as the rest of the chapter depicts.

Point #2
GLL is not presenting my position correctly.

While indeed I do see the prophecies of peace in Jerusalem stated in the OT as pertaining to conditional prosperity and Jerusalem being an example of God's righteousness to the nations had they accepted Christ and become a light to the world:
and yes I firmly believe the situation of no more war, death, destruction etc. will be realized on earth only after it is totally cleansed of sin and made new --

YET -- if anyone actually read my last posts they would realize that indeed the prophecies relate to the last days before Christ's coming when

MANY PEOPLE (Isaiah 2)
or
MANY NATIONS (Micah 4)
will try to enforce a human engineered counterfeit kingdom centered in Jerusalem.

A counterfeit will always draw very heavily on the true to appear as genuine as possible while still being very much a counterfeit.


Our mission is to point people to the ensign of Jesus Christ and gather them into the kingdom of GRACE which is not a worldly kingdom but a kingdom inside a person that transforms their lives and hearts and prepares them for the kingdom of glory with Christ in the eternal home.

Ded-The Bible has no quotation marks in the original.
Any quotation marks added are the result of much later editing.

Before I continue to address your ideas, show us proof of this, particularly in regards to Isaiah 2:2-4.

"..I saw that the Word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of God plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed." EW 220, 221 (1SG 116, 117).

"Then I saw that God knew that Satan would try every art to destroy man; therefore He had caused His word to be written out, and had made His purposes in regard to the human race so plain that the weakest need not err." (EW p.218)

Important point--She often used the KJV and it had quotations and commas and not once did she ever call out this supposed "error" or "addition" you are now calling out.

You are saying KJV is in error--a serious charge. For if we cannot trust who said what as shown by Scripture (including quotations and commas), what can we trust?

I am reminded of us as SDA, when we often say that Jesus said, "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise" to Sunday keepers. They like to say Scripture says -- "I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

It's a well known fact that Punctuation was added by translators to the Bible a couple thousand or more years after the Prophets wrote it.

Indeed, the text of the thief on the cross is a good example -- comma placement can make a big difference.

The KJV was translated by men who did their best to do an accurate job -- but their punctuation was still their work, not that of the prophet.

Checking Isaiah 2
My Geneva Bible has no quotations at all for those verses.
Every KJV Bible I checked (and I checked four different ones) has no quotations at all for those verses.

It's only as I look in more modern translations that I see any quotation marks -- and they were definitely added by men, not by any prophet, and reflect the popular concept that pervades the world today.

SRod are NOT alone in promoting an earthly "godly" kingdom in old Jerusalem that will bring present day nations to their knees. It is a very popular doctrine.

Adventists stand pretty much alone in their view of end time events.

I am now looking at the very Bible (NKJV) that is in our pews today, and as been for many years. it has the following words-

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths"(end of quotation), --for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" (Isaiah 2:2-4)

You ignored this point--

"Important point--She(EGW) often used the KJV and it had quotations and commas and not once did she ever call out this supposed "error" or "addition" you are now calling out."

Shall we trust Dedication or SOP?

The NKJV is not the KJV.

Yes, the publishers of the NKJV added quotation marks.

But quotation marks are not in the KJV, which EGW used.

The NKJV wasn't even in existence in EGW's day.

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I'm sorry dedication, and I don't want to come across as one who hasn't been following, of which I haven't, but does quotation marks really make a difference?

It says, many people shall go and say...

It would seem reasonable that the next part is what they say, quoted or not.

Just a hunch that you are objecting to
"And it shall come to pass in the last days"

Ask, last days of what?

It seems to me, it would be the last days of Jerusalem. And there may be a future application, but if so, then some of the details designed for Jerusalem's last days would not all apply. Quotes, commas, etc. should not a religion make.

By the way, are you aware of the following:

Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error, that the saints are yet to go to Old Jerusalem, before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of God, under the message of the third angel; for if we are to go to Jerusalem, then our minds will naturally be there, and our means will be withheld from other uses, to get the saints to Jerusalem. I saw that the reason why they were left to go into this great error, is because they have not confessed and forsaken their errors, that they have been in for a number of years past.
E. G. White. {RH, November 1, 1850 par. 13}

Here is the description of the whole chapter.

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

As we noted, this is concerning Judah and Jerusalem (in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah vs. 1:1)

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
Shown several times now -- the "last days" of Judah and Jerusalem's time of probation -- ie -- the 490 years.

“The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,” had been their message. At the expiration of “the time”—the sixty-nine weeks of Daniel 9, which were to extend to the Messiah, “the Anointed One”—Christ had received the anointing of the Spirit, after his baptism by John in Jordan. And the “kingdom of God” which they had declared to be at hand, was established by the death of Christ. GC 346

that] the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it

“Christ's work was largely confined to Judea. But though his personal ministry did not extend to other lands, people from all nations listened to his teaching, and carried the message to all parts of the world. Many heard of Jesus by hearing of the wonderful miracles that he performed. And the knowledge of his suffering and death, which were to be witnessed by the large number in attendance at the Passover, would be spread from Jerusalem to all parts of the world. (RH Oct. 26,1897)

God's plan for Israel --
They were to be the light of the world.
And in many ways they were --
Christ, the Son of God, came to them establishing the kingdom of grace, and from Jerusalem that glorious message went out to the world.
But Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace.

But now to the "last days" of our history.

Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace, wanting only a kingdom of honor over nations.

In the "last days" of our history, things haven't changed, people still want a temporal kingdom rather than the kingdom of grace.

Here are the two almost identical passages under discussion:

Isaiah 2:2- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

and

Micah 4:1-5.
"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."



Who is it that shall say these things?—

"Many nations [Isa. "Many people"]

So who is saying these things exactly?
Is it God, or is it "many nations" and "many people"?

In the last days then many people shall say that "the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." In the last days many people shall say, The nations "shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning-hooks." In the last days many people shall say that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

In the last days many people shall say, "they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid." And, too, they will say that "the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." All these things many people will say in the last days.

Apparently, these prophets are predicting the counterfeit establishment of Christianity over the nations.

God's purposes will be counterfeited.
How do we come to such a conclusion?
Well, yes, read the CONTEXT!

First, these scripture do not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place. They will say it is what God said.

They establish "Christianity" over the mountains and hills -- that is taking control over governments and religion.
It is the political/religious counterfeit mountain in the name of the Lord.

That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outward thing, and not the real kingdom of grace established by Christ, is indicated by the next four verses, which say:-

"Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots; their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made; and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive them not." Isaiah 2:6-9


THEREFORE --

What is that "therefore" at the beginning of verse six, referring back to --
It's referring back to the verses where the PEOPLE are saying all these wonderful things!!!

So why does this say

Therefore?
Therefore thou (referring to God) hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob???


These verses show that while the people profess that they know God, in works they deny him. They will be worshiping something of their own creation.

In a counterfeit establishment of worship -- the standard of what true Christianity is, is lowered, until it comes down to where the mass of the people are, and then they "worship" thinking they are "saving the world" by flowing into this established Christianity that has set itself above all "mountains" and "hills".

And what will be the final result?

The prophet Isaiah continues:
"Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low." "And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he arised to shake terribly the earth. In the day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefs of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake the terrible the earth." Isa. 2:10-12, 19-21.


This corresponds to
The second coming --
Rev. 6:14-16 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


In that day of the Lord the earth shall be melted (2 Peter 3:10, 11; Isa. 24:19, 20), and sinners shall be destroyed out of it; "nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness." 2 Peter 2:13.

And when the earth is cleansed, then will be fulfilled the word of the Lord which is written: "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34); for "all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children." Isa. 54:13.

Agreed.

Yes EGW makes a strong statement against the idea that God's people are yet to go to Jerusalem.



The issue of quotation marks is actually over when the "many people" stop speaking.
Our pioneers discovered (and I've found several articles where they present this) that the "people say" everything from verse 3-5 in Isaiah chapter two.

Using the rules of English grammer and noting the use of the grammatical voice of "US/WE" it is apparent that this is right.

Once this is understood, it becomes obvious from that chapter itself, that God is not at all pleased with those who teach the restoration of old Jerusalem as the peaceful righteous kingdom just before Christ's coming.

Thanks for the quote from EGW

The point of the quotation marks -- the KJV has no quotation marks, the original has no quotation marks. Quotations, if assigned are marked as to the actual grammatical wording.

The only way to determine who says what is to carefully look for the grammatical "VOICE" in the passage.


Basic English grammar confirms that VERSES 3-5 are all in the "WE/US" voice showing it is the people speaking.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Please notice
It is the people talking

They keep saying "LET US" "WE WILL" showing it is still the people talking all through verse 3-5.

They refer to God as "he".

They refer to their enemies as "they" and believe God will rebuke them (other nations) and cause "them" that is their enemies, to beat their swords into plowshares.

This is not God speaking, this is the people speaking.
The grammar confirms it.

So yes it is the people saying everything in those verses.

These people THINK they are building God's kingdom.


In verse 6 there is a change in "voice".
It is no more the "US" and "WE" voice.

Now Isaiah is speaking
saying
Therefore "Thou" referring to God
hast forsaken "them"
referring to the people who were talking in verses 3-5.

Why has God forsaken them.

Because they be replenished from east (false religious ideas??) southsayers (false prophets???)

Now notice -- these many people say --

"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

They are saying the nations will not learn war any more.

BUT scripture shows something very different for at Christ's second coming:
Rev. 19:19 the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse,


This passage (as well as it's equivalent in Micah 4) tell us that there will be a counterfeit kingdom gathering in the "mount of the Lord" just before Christ comes, but it does not go well with them as the rest of the chapter depicts.

Code language challenge???

Uncoded --
The prophets didn't use vowels or spaces either shall we take those out too?

You are right.
The prophets didn't use them-- and it takes careful study to know where they are to be.
And that is just the point -- they are very USEFUL,(making reading much easier) but they are not part of the inspired word.


Decoded: can't believe you're arguing about punctuation

When it completely changes the meaning of the passage, then yes, punctuation is important.

So then, ded, here's the question nobody will answer:
On WHO'S authority does WHAT punctuation go WHERE?

Because WHERE you put the punctuation depends on HOW you interpret Scripture. But if Scripture is "not of any private interpretation" where do we put the punctuation?

Where would you put the quotation marks in the passages under discussion?

Like I said -- it takes a careful reading of the "grammatical" voice. And indeed, a person needs to prayerfully study it out.

(I'm not the one advocating that no one has the right to interpret scripture --- I believe everyone needs to prayerfully ask the Holy Spirit to lead them to truth as they ponder the things in scripture)

I'd be in desperate straits if all I could find for entertainment was sorting through 4 screens of pointless and wandering "arguments" and try to sort out where a comma goes.

Like I said, "cntblvrrgngbtpncttn"

I guess it is rather pointless only because most don't care to study things out for themselves and only see an argument over commas when in actuality it was seeking understanding as to who said what.

Sermon by E.J.Waggonner

Now look at a Bible picture of national religion, and its consequences. We quote from Isa. 2:2-5:-

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."


This is the result toward which those look who shout, "The world for Christ." Mark, the scripture does not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place. That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outside show, and not real service to God, is indicated by the next four verses, which say:-


"Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots; their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made; and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive them not."


These verses show that while they profess that they know God, in works they deny him. They will be worshiping something of their own creation. .. And what will be the final result? The prophet continues:-

"Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he arised to shake terribly the earth. In the day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefs of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake the terrible the earth." Isa. 2:10-12, 19-21.

In that day of the Lord the earth shall be melted (2 Peter 3:10, 11; Isa. 24:19, 20), and sinners shall be destroyed out of it; "nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 2:13. {September 14, 1888 EJW, SITI }

EXAMINATION OF ISAIAH 2, AND MICAH 4

From the Adventist Review and Herald May 16,1864:

"WE are told - "The end of the world cannot come yet, for that glorious prophecy has not been accomplished which says: "They shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning hooks;" etc....

The prophet proceeds to tell us what "many people" will "say," ... Verses 3-5. "And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

Many persons have mistaken this language, as I think. It is not a prophecy of what shall be, but of what "many people" will do, and say.

This prophecy, of what the people would say, is exactly fulfilled before our eyes. It is the very language of "many people" in these days; which shows that we are "in the last days." The prophecy of a "temporal millennium," or thousand years spiritual, peaceful and universal reign of Christ, or rather of the church on earth, previous to the personal appearing of Christ in the clouds of heaven, exactly agrees with the boasts of an exalted church at this time.

Let us now inquire, Did the many people speak the truth? or, did they prophesy out of their own hearts?

I think the latter. And to this state of an exalted church, and to what they would say about peace and security, for a thousand years, I think Paul clearly refers in 1Thess.v,3. "When they shall say peace and safety; [the very thing that Isaiah and Micah tells us the "many people" will "say" in the "last days;] then sudden destruction cometh upon them, and they shall not escape."

An awful warning this, to those who are saying nations are going to beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning hooks, and not lift up sword against each other any more, but all are to sit under their own vine - having none to molest them or make them afraid.

{May 16, 1854 James White editor, Adventist Review sabbath Herald}

dedication, you may also want to read the commentary on under "Learn war any more" for verse 4 regarding attempts to disprove unscriptural teachings.

The quote refers to the principles of heaven and the New Earth, where God's law is fully established, with its resultant peace. These principles need to be implanted in the lives of God's people today. To the extent people are transformed by the principles of heaven, it brings a heavenly atmosphere into their homes and communities.

That was the promise for national Israel, had Israel as a nation accepted God's covenant.

"The many" whose words are being quoted in the Biblical verse, do understand something of what these principles are. Thus they think by going to Old Jerusalem they will achieve it -- but the chapters (both Isaiah 11 and Micah 4) shows that will fail.

Why? Because it's not in Old Jerusalem that it will be achieved.

The principles of God's law are to be lived out in the lives of God's people where ever they are, and thus the Holy Spirit transforms their characters and fits them for the heavenly kingdom --
It is not till we reach that heavenly kingdom that these principles will be universal.

A fuller context of the quote below:

Yes, and this article was written by who?

CT (Counsels to Parents and Teachers) was written by EGW

A writer who presents a very different last day scene than those who look to old Jerusalem for their safety.
-----------

"The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones. {CCh 37.2}

Today the world, utterly regardless of the warning voice of God, is hurrying on to eternal ruin. {CCh 38.5}
The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecy of the eleventh chapter of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. {CCh 38.6}
"Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. . . . Because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance,
broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore has the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate. . . . The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth." Isaiah 24:1-8. {CCh 38.7}
"Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. . . ." Joel 1:15. {CCh 39.1}
"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down." Jeremiah 4:23-26. {CCh 39.2}
"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 30:7. {CCh 39.3}

Not all in this world have taken sides with the enemy against God. Not all have become disloyal. There are a faithful few who are true to God; for John writes: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12. Soon the battle will be waged fiercely between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. Soon everything that can be shaken will be shaken, that those things that cannot be shaken may remain. {CCh 39.4}

Satan is a diligent Bible student. He knows that his time is short, and he seeks at every point to counterwork the work of the Lord upon this earth. It is impossible to give any idea of the experience of the people of God who shall be alive upon the earth when celestial glory and a repetition of the persecutions of the past are blended. They will walk in the light proceeding from the throne of God. By means of the angels there will be constant communication between heaven and earth. And Satan, surrounded by evil angels, and claiming to be God, will work miracles of all kinds, to deceive, if possible, the very elect.CCh40


Again and again I am instructed to present to our churches the work that should be done in our large cities....The time is coming when laws will be framed that will close doors now open to the message. We need to arouse to earnest effort now, while the angels of God are waiting to give their wonderful aid to all who will labor to arouse the consciences of men and women regarding righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come.--Manuscript 7, 1908.

The time of trouble, which is to increase until the end, is very near at hand. We have no time to lose. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfillment.--RH Nov. 24, 1904.


The world is becoming more and more lawless. Soon great trouble will arise among the nations--trouble that will not cease until Jesus comes.--RH Feb. 11, 1904. {LDE 12.3}

Satan has prepared various snares to meet varied minds. When the law of God is made void the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate, will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Instead of being strengthened when brought into strait places, many prove that they are not living branches of the True Vine. . . . {Mar 28.3}
But when the world makes void the law of God, what will be the effect upon the truly obedient and righteous? Will they be carried away by the strong current of evil? Because so many rank themselves under the banner of the prince of darkness, will God's commandment-keeping people swerve from their allegiance? Never! Not one who is abiding in Christ will fail or fall. His followers will bow in obedience to a higher authority than that of any earthly potentate.


As men depart further and further from God, Satan is permitted to have power over the children of disobedience. He hurls destruction among men. There is calamity by land and sea. Property and life are destroyed by fire and flood. Satan resolves to charge this upon those who refuse to bow to the idol which he has set up. His agents point to Seventh-day Adventists as the cause of the trouble. "These people stand out in defiance of law," they say. "They desecrate Sunday. Were they compelled to obey the law for Sunday observance, there would be a cessation of these terrible judgments." {Mar 176.2}


A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in our land [the United States]. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, ... when that land shall, through its legislators, abjure the principles of Protestantism, and give countenance to Romish apostasy in tampering with God's law--it is then that the final work of the man of sin will be revealed. Protestants will throw their whole influence and strength on the side of the Papacy; by a national act enforcing the false sabbath, they will give life and vigor to the corrupt faith of Rome, reviving her tyranny and oppression of conscience. Then it will be time for God to work in mighty power for the vindication of His truth. {Mar 179.3}

The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. As the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was the signal for flight to the Judean Christians, so the assumption of power on the part of our nation [the United States] in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains. {Mar 180.2}


In this time of persecution the faith of the Lord's servants will be tried. They have faithfully given the warning, looking to God and to His word alone. God's Spirit, moving upon their hearts, has constrained them to speak. . . . Yet when the storm of opposition and reproach bursts upon them, some, overwhelmed with consternation, will be ready to exclaim: "Had we foreseen the consequences of our words, we would have held our peace." They are hedged in with difficulties. Satan assails them with fierce temptations. The work which they have undertaken seems far beyond their ability to accomplish. They are threatened with destruction. The enthusiasm which animated them is gone; yet they cannot turn back. Then, feeling their utter helplessness, they flee to the Mighty One for strength. {Mar 186.4}


Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. {Mar 264.2}


When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {Mar 265.3}

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.

I saw the leading men of the earth consulting together, and Satan and his angels busy around them. I saw a writing, copies of which were scattered in different parts of the land, giving orders that unless the saints should yield their peculiar faith, give up the Sabbath, and observe the first day of the week, the people were at liberty after a certain time to put them to death. {Mar 268.4}


Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached. {Mar 273.2}


When the protection of human laws shall be withdrawn from those who honor the law of God, there will be, in different lands, a simultaneous movement for their destruction. As the time appointed in the decree draws near, the people will conspire to root out the hated sect. It will be determined to strike in one night a decisive blow, which shall utterly silence the voice of dissent and reproof. {Mar 278.2}
The people of God--some in prison cells, some hidden in solitary retreats in the forests and the mountains--still plead for divine protection, while in every quarter companies of armed men, urged on by hosts of evil angels, are preparing for the work of death. It is now, in the hour of utmost extremity, that the God of Israel will interpose for the deliverance of His chosen.

It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people.... The 144,000 triumphed. Their faces were lighted up with the glory of God. {Mar 279.7}
When the voice of God turns the captivity of His people, there is a terrible awakening of those who have lost all in the great conflict of life.


It was at midnight that God chose to deliver His people. As the wicked were mocking around them, suddenly the sun appeared, shining in his strength, and the moon stood still. . . . Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. But there was one clear place of settled glory, whence came the voice of God like many waters, shaking the heavens and the earth. There was a mighty earthquake. The graves were opened, and those who had died in faith under the third angel's message, keeping the Sabbath, came forth from their dusty beds, glorified, to hear the covenant of peace that God was to make with those who had kept His law.

The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. {Mar 287.2}
He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully solemn. At the end of every sentence the saints shouted, "Glory! Hallelujah!" {Mar 287.3}
The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. {Mar 287.4}
The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. {Mar 287.5}

On the May 16, 1854 article, I assume you are posting as some proof of verification for your beliefs that Isaiah 2 does not point to the pre-Mil kingdom. if so please state who wrote that article?

As noted in the post -- {May 16, 1854 James White editor, Adventist Review Sabbath Herald}
Most likely written by James White as there was no name after the article in that ARSH, and he was the editor.

And as noted in previous posts -- there are quite a number of articles by various Adventist pioneers saying the same thing.

The one previous to J.White was by Elliot Waggoner (famous for his 1888 message)

Here's another one:

Adventist Review Sabbath Herald JAN. 22, 1861 Uriah Smith editor

All the following is QUOTING from the article:

SWORDS INTO PLOUGHSHARES.
_
WE find the following paragraph in the Scientific
American:
"We have not yet reached those ' last days' spoken
of by the good old prophet Isaiah, when the mountain
of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of
the mountain, when he shall judge among the nations,
and shall rebuke many people ; and they shall beat
their swords into ploughshares, and their s pears into
pruning hooks;....

The writer of the above
fails in not discriminating between what " the good old
prophet Isaiah" says on the authority of inspiration,
and what he says other people will say. Isaiah does,
not tell us that in the last days people shall beat their
swords into ploughshares and learn war no more. But
he does say that "many people shall go and say" such
and such flattering things, and this among the rest,
And is not this just what people are now saying ?

Is not here brought to view the very doctrine of a temporal
millennium, and the very cry of peace and safety
which is especially to characterize the last days ? We
would therefore suggest to the Scientific, that though
we have not reached a time when men are beating
swords into ploughshares, we have reached a time when
people are saying that this is going to be the case, and
this saying was to take place in the "last days," and
was to be a peculiar mark of those days.

But so far is this from being true, that the Lord rebukes
them for entertaining such a delusive dream of
carnal security. Isa. ii, 6 : "Therefore thou host forsaken
thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished
from the east, and are soothsayers like the
Philistines." He rebukes them for heaping to themselves
such abundance of gold, silver, horses, and idols,
and finally tells them to enter into the rock, and hide them
in the dust for fear of the Lord and for the glory of his
majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
So far then from the present perplexity of the nations
and rumors of wars, being a sign that we have not yet
reached the last days, they are just the reverse. And
still the religious teachers of the day, persist in re-iterating
their cry of peace and safety right in the face
of daily-transpiring events, which demolish their sophisms
at every step, and beat the brains out of their
most plausible theories.

END QUOTE

Those articles are what "uninspired" men had to say, their opinions. This is all the more the reason for validating what the Lord's lesson of Zech.4 makes. Inspired prophets are to interpret the prophecies. Not Uriah Smith, James White or Dedication. Thanks for giving us a good example.

Now, if you find EGW writes something to your liking concerning Isaiah 2:2-4, I'm all ears, or in this case--eyes.

So your point of using them to back up your view that Isaiah 2:2-4 does not mean what it clearly says, falls short.

"Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the Lord. (Jer. 17:15)

"The language of the Bible should be explained according to it's obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine" (John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands who are now wandering in error." (GC, p.598-599)

Scripture itself shows that what these Adventist pioneers wrote is correct.

Remember Quotation Marks are NOT INSPIRED.
They are the works of men -- and they are NOT in the KJV.

Why should I rely on the works of modern bible translator's quotation marks for my understanding????
The grammar in the passage clearly shows who is talking --

Just as an example -- if someone were to write:

The young folks said, Let us go to the church, to the house of the Lord, and we will hear God's message and the preacher will tell those that bully people to stop, and they will stop bullying people, for in church the Word of God is spoken. So let us all go to church.
Therefore the parents grounded them because they were only going there to avoid doing their homework.


Would you know who said what?

Since the SRod uses that passage in Isaiah 2:2-5 as proof of an earthly, temporary, righteous kingdom in present day Jerusalem -- to send forth the law from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jersualem. ---

What does EGW say?

dedication, could you just sort out this little discrepancy:


From the "Why is rejection of the SOP happening?" thread:



The first quote says you should study for yourself, the second two say you should let EGW tell you what Scripture says.

So, we can "interpret" Scripture for ourselves, as long as we come to the same conclusion EGW does.

Personally, I have found EGW's messages to be inspired, leading us to scripture and to Christ. It's absolutely amazing for me to see how her interpretations of prophecies are now being fulfilled, prophecies that many scoffed at in years past. And yes, people have to push EGW aside if they want to accept the modern popular movements that she predicted would arise and lead many astray.

However -- what you believe is between you and God and your study of scripture.
That is where you must find truth and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth.

Scriptures come first --
Even Paul tells us the Berans were more noble because after they heard Paul's message they went home to study the scriptures to see if his words were true.

1 Thess. 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Jak- what I have found from Dedication is that she strongly believes her spin on what she says. The Lord had to deal with the Pharisees and SOP says this--


"When their questions have been fairly answered, they turn the subject and bring up another point to avoid acknowledging the truth. [u]We should beware of indulging the spirit which controlled the Jews."

we did a post that addresses this exact situation and may the Lord forgive me for indulging Dedication more often than I should have.

Pharisee post

I will address those certain areas that I am led to address but I shall not waste my time as I know that it is "casting pearls before swine." I say this not with joy as she has the ability to learn just as many others can, and if the "Spirit of Truth" was to indeed guide her a good work would be performed before the Lord "takes the reins into His own hands." (Testimonies to Minsters, p.300)

The trouble is , she does not know what this 'taking the reins into His own hands" is about. Her idea of church purification is that the 'bad guys" run out of the church in the time of the Sunday law.This soundly falls flat on it's face according to both Scripture and SOP and of course the rejected Elijah message, which she hates.

Everyone spins Scripture to suit themselves. But of the two of you, dedication is a lot closer to reality.

No problem with each ones opinion, let's hope the Truth wins
We made a post you might like "help, I can't see"

Oh, don't worry. I can see just fine, and I need no person to tell me what I'm looking at.