Thy Kingdom Come

Before we begin our second part of the report on the "pre-millennial" kingdom, let us review what we showed in part 1--

1) Sister Ellen White, while a true prophet of God, could not have been given 'all" the light to carry us home to His kingdom. For she was not the Elijah to come, of which the Lord specifically said He would send right before the "great and dreadful day of the Lord."(Mal. 4:5)

2) Therefore, as she herself admitted, no prophet however honored of heaven has ever attained to a "full understanding" of the great plan of redemption.."(GC, p.343). For one to say that sister White did what no other prophet has ever done is to have the same inexcusable and fatal stand as did the Jews, with ther claim of Moses being an "end all".

3)The statements relative to a subject which is still out of sight in the unfolding of the Scroll, are made incidental terms of truth as commonly understood at that time.

Ok let us begin-- (my comments will be in parenthesis)

"..in Christ’s day “the doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ’s words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed his parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions.

He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all....”---Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 263.

This circumstance is natural and common to every writer treating of Present Truth, beginning with the Old Testament writers, and continuing ever since, and will thus be until every component part of the Truth is made known. This is borne out in the work of John the Baptist.

He was to proclaim, not the setting up of the Kingdom, but the coming of the King. But in announcing the one, he incidentally had to answer questions concerning the other. When speaking of the coming King, he expressed himself in terms of revealed Truth.

But when circumstantially alluding to the coming Kingdom, on which there was no special light in his day, he necessarily expressed himself in terms of the doctrines as then commonly understood.

Nevertheless, when the further unrolling of the scroll revealed that the Kingdom was not to be set up at that time, then the honest, truth-seeking ones did not accuse either John or Christ, but joyously watched the scroll unfold, and jubilantly marched on with the Truth.

Not so, though, with the vast majority of the Jews. Their pride of opinion, forbidding them to forgo their errors and to embrace advancing Truth, led them deeper into error.

“Thus it was,” says the Spirit of Prophecy, “that the Jews did in the days of Christ, and we are warned not to do as they did, and be led to choose darkness rather than light, because there was in them an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.”-Testimonies on Sabbath-School Work, p. 66; Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 30.

So The Great Controversy and Early Writings make the subject of the Kingdom just as clear as the partial unrolling of the scroll permitted the writer to view it, in only one of its phases, at the time she wrote both books.

While The Great Controversy may omit showing that the establishment of the Kingdom and the inheriting of it are two different events, elsewhere the Spirit of Prophecy does do so: While the apostles, it says, “were not to behold the coming of the kingdom in their day, the fact that Jesus bade them pray for it, is evidence that in God’s own time it will surely come."

“The Kingdom of God’s grace is now being established, as day by day hearts that have been full of sin and rebellion yield to the sovereignty of His love. But thefull establishment of the kingdom of His glory will not take place until the second coming of Christ to this world. ‘The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,’ is to be given to ‘the people of he saints of the Most High.”’-Mount of Blessing, p. 159.

Every Christian should remember that as the Truth is ever-advancing It will not be found today where It was yesterday and that therefore Christ’s followers must advance with It. They will not follow the examples of the Jews and the Romans.

When Moses wrote the first part of the Bible, he was not given all the light which God intended to reveal to His people through the ages. With each approaching hour for the Truth to advance, came first one prophet, then another, in a long succession ending with John the Baptist.

hen came Christ, the apostles, the reformers, William Miller and Sister White, each one in turn teaching truths which could not be borne out entirely by the writings of any one predecessor. To find all the Truth thus progressively revealed, the writings of all must be collaborated.

For instance, in setting forth the law of the Passover, and in commanding its observance Moses wrote: “Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep or from the goats: and ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.” Ex. 12:5, 6.

The reason which Moses assigns for the Passover observance is that it is to commemorate Israel’s going out of Egypt (Deut. 16:1-3).

John the Baptist, however, imputes its significance to the coming of Christ, “the Lamb of God” (John 1:29), while the apostles assign it to His crucifixion: “For even Christ our passover,” says Paul, “is sacrificed for us.” 1 Cor. 5:7. And the significance of keeping the Passover, he then attaches to the ordinance of the Lord’s supper (1 Cor. 11:26).

Similarly, Moses did not explain that the Levitical priesthood in the earthly sanctuary (Ex. 40:15) was only a provisional and thus a temporary one, a figure of Christ’s priesthood in the heavenly sanctuary, as the apostles explained (Heb. 6:19, 20; 9:12, 26).

Failing to advance with the advancing Truth, each generation of Jews found fault with its respective prophets, culminating with the apostles and the very Son of God Himself. The Jews justified their criminal actions on the ground that the claims of their prophets, of Christ, and of the apostles, were not founded upon Moses’ writings. So while boasting of Moses’ writings, they denied and killed the prophets who came after him---a solemn warning to us, lest doing as they did, we meet their fate!

(Here I would like to comment that this is why we must be very careful not to be like the Jews , in regards to sister White's writings. The promised Elijah will obviously have more light, which sister White did not have. To believe otherwise is to deny the Lord's promises and word.)

The main question therefore is not as to whether Sister White’s or Moses’ or this one’s or that one’s writings contain all the messages for this day, but rather simply as to whether they are found in, and supported by, the Bible.

The Rod consequently does not claim that its message is found in its entirety in the writings of any one particular prophet, but rather in the writings of all the prophets---“here a little, and there a little.” Isa. 28:13.

Let none, therefore, treacherously use Sister White’s writings, as the Jews used Moses’ writings, against the advance of Truth, and to their own eternal hurt. From every angle approached, the Bible clears the subject of the Kingdom, making impossible one’s erring if he follows precisely what the Word says concerning it.

The Rod does not teach either that Jerusalem is to be rebuilt, or that it is not to be rebuilt, as the capital city of the Kingdom, but only that the Kingdom in its beginning is to be set up in the Promised Land. And in confirmation of this truth, Ezekiel prophesies of

A New Division of The Land.

The prophet presents a division of the land entirely different from that in Joshua’s time (Josh. 17): it is to be in strips from the east to the west; Dan is to have the first portion in the north, and Gad, the last portion in the south between the borders of these two are to be the portions of the rest of the tribes; the city is to be in the midst of the land (Ezek. 48).

The fact that such a division of the Promised Land has never been made, shows that it is yet future. Also the fact that the sanctuary is to be there, whereas it is not to be in the earth made new (Rev. 21:22), again proves that this unique setup is pre-millennial.

In addition, the twofold fact that the name of the city is “The Lord is There,” and that its location, according to the division of the land, necessarily must in some respects be different from that of old Jerusalem, shows that Jerusalem of today, the city proper, may not at all be rebuilt as a capital city of the coming Kingdom. (See Tract No. 12 The World Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, 1941 Edition, pp. 52, 53).

If the Bible makes Itself clear on any subject It certainly does so on the subject of the Kingdom. And rightly so, for the Kingdom is the Christian’s crowning hope,

Satan’s Constant Target, the People’s Repeated Stumbling Block.

That the great controversy between Christ and Satan is over this crowning hope, the Kingdom, is seen from the Lord’s repeated instructions in the prophecies, in the types, and in the parables; from Satan’s constant effort to keep the human race out of it; and last, from human beings repeatedly being defeated in their warfare to become heirs of it.

Working determinedly from the beginning to plunge all humanity into hell, Satan conceived his major strategy of misleading them concerning the Kingdom. He succeeded with most of the Jews because they wanted the Kingdom set up before its appointed time or not at all.

And he is succeeding with many of the Laodiceans today because now, when the time appointed actually has come, they want to have it later or not at all! What a paradox! What an irony! Indeed, as history repeats itself, so does folly!

The Bible says: “In the days of these kings [the kings that are symbolized by the ten toes of the great image] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed. ...It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms.” Dan. 2:44.

Observe that “the stone” (the Kingdom) does not become a great mountain until after it smites the image, showing that the Kingdom begins in its infancy with only the first fruits, who soon stand on Mount Zion with the Lamb, and who later, after they have garnered in the second fruits of the living, smite the nations; finally there come from the grave the saved of all ages fully to make up the “great mountain”---the Kingdom complete!

(Spare yourself the search--Ellen White never once said the stone was Christ through out her writings-- sadly this has become a real Satan misconception! we hope to do a study on Daniel 2 soon)

In the face of these clear-cut and repeatedly chronicled prophecies, may no one be so foolish as to say, as did the Jews in response to Ezekiel’s prophecies, “The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off” (Ezek. 12:27), thereby bringing upon his head the same dreadful doom.(Answerer, Q-42, vol. 2)

(There is much more to be said about this kingdom and as time allows we'll add more. The kingdom is pointed out in Revelation(14:1-5) when the 144,000 stand on Mt. Zion with the Lord, showing that no devil kingdom is there, rather the Lord, whom has rose up from His mediatorial duties and has traveled to the earth (Ezekiel chapter 1) has now join with His elect prior to the Loud Cry. a sort of high level meeting which the last headquarters are to be set up in Israel)

"They will question and criticize everything that arises in the unfolding of truth, criticize the work and position of others, criticize every branch of the work in which they have not themselves a part. They will feed upon the errors and mistakes and faults of others, “until,” said the angel, the Lord Jesus shall rise up from His mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary and shall clothe Himself with the garments of vengeance and surprise them at their unholy feast, and they will find themselves unprepared for the marriage supper of the Lamb.”(Testimonies, vol. 5, p.690)

Notice that this rising up and coming to surprise them is in the "unfolding of truth" not after the truth has been proclaimed.

Bottom line-- those who believe that His word will not produce His soon to come kingdom based in the Holy land, shall indeed not receive it at all. For if we miss it at the beginning we shall miss it for eternity. Shalom.

Again the study begins with a call to setting EGW aside for this "study", because she didn't know these things. (And indeed she didn't know anything about God's people being called to go to Old Jerusalem and having a work to do there, she spoke against that idea) Quite a few points are in contradiction to EGW, that's why they insist she can't be quoted when dealing with this subject.

But OK -- let's look at scripture.



You know -- I can fully agree with the words written there, but knowing that GLL is trying to lead people to a kingdom in OLD JERUSALEM alerts me to the fact that I do not agree.

Yes, indeed the crowning hope is the kingdom!

But what is that kingdom?

When we look at Christ's teachings of the kingdom a completely different picture emerges, then any idea of an earthly literal kingdom in Palestine. --

We find that
Christ is interested in a "kingdom within"
A kingdom that grows in the hearts and minds of people.

Christ makes it quite plain that is the only kingdom here on earth prior to His second coming.

Just browse all the "kingdom" references in Christ's teachings.
Most deal with the "kingdom" within -- dealing with how God's spirit abiding in the life and changes that life.

The message Jesus preached -- "the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mat. 3:2; 4:17,23; 10:7; 16:19)
No, it was not a physical kingdom, but the kingdom of grace -- the kingdom within.

Matt. 5 repeatedly speaks of the "kingdom of heaven"
As does Matt. 7:21; 11:11-12; 18:1-4, 23: 19:12,14, 24, and many more.
Chapter 13 speaks of the "kingdom of heaven" eight times,

No this is not speaking of a kingdom in Old Jerusalem

Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
This verse equates seeking God's kingdom to seeking His righteousness, not seeking a place in Palestine.

Matt. 8:11 speaks of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sitting down in the kingdom of heaven, while their children are cast out.
Again speaking of this as the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 9:35 calls it the "gospel of the kingdom".

There are also references to entering the kingdom prepared for you -- at Christ's second coming (not before)


The kingdom we are to concentrate on now is a kingdom that comes without observation. It is a kingdom that the Holy Spirit develops within us, to fit us for the "kingdom of heaven" when Christ comes.

LUKE 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].
17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].
17:24 For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one [part] under heaven, shines unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Daniel 2 gives a graphic picture of a stone hitting the image -- and what happens?

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

So when will Christ's kingdom fill the whole earth? Will it be before or after His second coming?

Indeed, it does not become a great mountain until after it smites the image. This kingdom will not exist contemporaneously with any of those four kingdoms, or kings, or papacy, that are part of the iron and clay phase.

For what happens when it smites the image?
The image gets blown away AND NO PLACE IS FOUND FOR THEM.
That happens BEFORE the mountain fills the earth.


And remember Daniel tells us it's a
"kingdom, which shall never be destroyed"
"it shall stand for ever" Daniel 2:44

All literal, geographical kingdoms on earth will be destroyed at Christ's second coming, for the earth is desolate for 1000 years.

Now we know the MESSAGE of the kingdom of GRACE will "lighten" the whole earth prior to Christ's coming, but that is NOT a literal kingdom that destroys the kings and nations and sets up a literal geographical kingdom with a human (antitypical David) king and destroys the nations and will stand for ever.

Also, the kings and nations and "beast" power are still there when Christ comes for we see these nations and kings gathered together to fight against the KING of kings, when He comes in the second coming.
See Rev. 19.

We see them destroyed when CHRIST comes with His "armies" from heaven.





As to WHO or WHAT is the stone --
Scripture repeatedly says Jesus is the "Rock of Ages" the Stone which the builders disallowed.

Psalms 118:22
Isaiah 8:13-14; 28:16
Matt. 21:42-43 21:44
Acts 4:10-12
Ephesians 2:20

Psalms 18:2, 31, 46
Psalms 95:1

Ded- You know -- I can fully agree with the words written there, but knowing that GLL is trying to lead people to a kingdom in OLD JERUSALEM alerts me to the fact that I do not agree.

Stick around, you just might find more you can "fuly agree with". No it is not I it is His word, which Dedication steadfastly denies. That's okay the Truth will win, amen!

Ded- We find that
Christ is interested in a "kingdom within"
A kingdom that grows in the hearts and minds of people.

Christ makes it quite plain that is the only kingdom here on earth prior to His second coming.

Christ is behind His holy Scriptures, we'll see what HE SAYS. as far as the quote about "within" let's look at what that really means--

THE KINGDOM OF GOD IN THE HEART OR ON THE EARTH?

Question No. 45:

Since Jesus says “the kingdom of God is within” us (Luke 17:21), how, then, can it be an earthly kingdom?

Answer:

If the statement in question means that there is to be no Kingdom of God on earth, then by the same token of reasoning it must also mean that neither is there to be any kingdom in heaven. And if there is to be none on earth, and none in heaven, then our hope is vain. But, as always, that which proves too much, proves nothing.

Consequently, to stand upon the proposition in the question is to take the position that there is to be no literal kingdom either on earth or in heaven, but only a spiritual kingdom within the heart, which is to reduce the subject to an absurdity.

It is to play right into the hands of the Devil, who would desperately like to black-out the Kingdom truth, and relegate the Kingdom itself to oblivion. But in this, thank God the Word assures us he is doomed to certain failure.

So before the Kingdom of God is established on this earth, it must indeed be spiritually established within us if we are ever to qualify for admission when it is physically established upon “earth, as it is in heaven.”

Accordingly, the spiritual kingdom of God within, is within those who embody the principles of its rule before the physical Kingdom is established. So the kingdom of God “within” is the regimen of the spiritual life; it is prerequisite to an inheritance in the external Kingdom of God." (Answerer, vol.2, Q-45)

*************************

All the quotes Dedication uses are good ones and have there place in the Scriptures. But do they negate His promises said though out the OT Scriptures? No, they must compliment them , else we have a double faced and minded God, God forbid!

We'll look at them as time allows. This subject is indeed VERY important! As far as Daniel 2 goes that is an in-depth study which we can bring out soon, God willing.

That's right -- his answer proves nothing. He builds a straw man and shoots it down.


The Pharisees (and disciples and all the Jews for that matter) were expecting a Messiah who would come drive out the Romans and exalt the Jewish nation into being the rulers of the world. They wanted an earthly kingdom.


John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
Notice he doesn't say "My kingdom in this world will come later" or "Right now my kingdom is not of this world"
It's simply "My kingdom is not of this world".

His "forever" literal kingdom will not be set up in this sinful world.

We also know that "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God". So how can a literal "pre-second coming" kingdom be the kingdom of God?




Also the text in Luke makes it perfectly clear that there is no geographical kingdom to be anywhere on this earth prior to Christ's coming.



PHARISEES ASK CHRIST WHEN KINGDOM WOULD BE ESTABLISHED:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come,

DON'T EXPECT TO SEE A LITERAL KINGDOM

he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

NO LITERAL GEOGRAPHICAL PLACE

17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

DISCIPLES WILL BE LONGING FOR KINGDOM

17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

BUT WARNED NOT TO LISTEN TO A CALL TO A GEOGRAPHICAL KINGDOM

17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow them.

WHEN WILL THE KINGDOM OF GLORY COME?

17:24 For as the lightning, that lightens out of the one [part] under heaven, shines unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Houteff writes: "Consequently, to stand upon the proposition in the question is to take the position that there is to be no literal kingdom either on earth or in heaven, but only a spiritual kingdom within the heart, which is to reduce the subject to an absurdity".

Indeed his interpretation is absurdity.
For Christ saying that there will be no geographical kingdom anywhere, not here, not there, etc. etc, in our present world, is NOT denying God's kingdom or the glorious kingdom on an earth made new.

Again he is simply building a straw man and shooting it down, to cause people to ignore the PLAIN WORDS of SCRIPTURE.

During our lives here on earth prior to the coming of our Lord, there is only ONE kingdom of extreme importance that needs to be growing in our lives and shared with all around us.
And that is the kingdom of grace -- Christ within -- changing our lives, our hearts, our minds, and yes -- fitting us for His glorious kingdom, a kingdom not of this world, but of heaven and earth made new.

Ded- During our lives here on earth prior to the coming of our Lord, there is only ONE kingdom of extreme importance that needs to be growing in our lives and shared with all around us.
And that is the kingdom of grace -- Christ within -- changing our lives, our hearts, our minds, and yes -- fitting us for His glorious kingdom, a kingdom not of this world, but of heaven and earth made new.

Acts 1:6, 7

"When they therefore had come together, they asked Him, saying, Lord will Thou at this time restore again The Kingdom to Israel."

Did you get the question? Will you at this time restore again, The Kingdom to Israel. A good question. You see they had the Kingdom once before. And now they wanted to know. Now that you have been resurrected Lord, Now that you have been glorified, Will you now give us the Kingdom? Jesus answer was simply this.

"And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the time, or the times of the seasons which the Father hath put in His own power." In other words, He did not tell them that the Kingdom was not to be established. He simply said, It is not for you to know when. Of course we know it was not to be in their day. But He did not tell them that.

Perhaps it would have discouraged them. Kept them from preaching the Gospel with all of their might. But the Lord in His Wisdom kept that from them. But the Bible does tell us when The Kingdom Of God's Glory is going to be established.

"And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem" (Isaiah 4:3)

"The purging and cleansing will surely pass through every church in our land that has had great opportunities and privileges, and has passed them by unheeded. More evidence is not what they want. They need pure and sanctified hearts to gather up and retain all the light that God has given, and then they will walk in that light. TM 414.1

Let us look at another powerful word of God with NO contingencies--

Jeremiah 30:3:

"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it"

Now you may be saying, "Now wait a minute, are we saying that we'll be going back to Palestine?" Well the Bible did say that, that God's people would one day return back to the land that He gave to their fathers. That land is of course the promise land.

You say, "Now wait a minute, that cannot be." Well the Bible says that. Well perhaps you may say, "Well that happened in Jeremiah's day" Well it is true that in Jeremiah's day He predicted that the Jewish people would return back to Jerusalem, from Babylon.

You remember they were in captivity for 70 years and after that captivity, they were allowed to return back to their homeland. That is Palestine, Canaan. And there in that land they once again established themselves as a nation. That is true.

It did happen in Jeremiah's day. However this prophecy calls for all 12 tribes to return. Both Israel and Judah. All 12 tribes. In Jeremiah's day, the 10 tribes did not exist as a nation. They had been scattered well over a hundred years prior to that. In fact they were scattered in 721 BC.

And God's people the Jews had returned from Babylon to Jerusalem at around 536 BC. So it shows that this is not talking about Jeremiah's time.

Acts 1:6, 7

"When they therefore had come together, they asked Him, saying, Lord will Thou at this time restore again The Kingdom to Israel."



GLL: Did you get the question? Will you at this time restore again, The Kingdom to Israel.


Yes, they still had hopes of an earthly kingdom.



GLL wrote: "And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the time, or the times of the seasons which the Father hath put in His own power." In other words, He did not tell them that the Kingdom was not to be established. He simply said, It is not for you to know when.

That's an argument built on silence. Jesus simply didn't get into the matter further.
The KINGDOM will be restored to true Israel (those in Christ) after the second coming. But it won't be located in old Jerusalem.
It will be new Jerusalem with the names of the 12 tribes on its twelve gate. (see Rev. 21)


GLL wrote: "And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem" (Isaiah 4:3)

I guess Jerusalem will not be very safe if only a few will be left.

Don't you think a little inconsistent
When ever the prophets speak of Jerusalem being punished or destroyed it seems SR believers say "Jerusalem = Adventist church".
When ever the prophets speak of people being gathered to Jerusalem, it seems SR believers say "Jerusalem - means Jerusalem the city over their in Palestine the place for the kingdom."




Jeremiah 30:3:

"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

GLL wrote: this prophecy calls for all 12 tribes to return. Both Israel and Judah. All 12 tribes. In Jeremiah's day, the 10 tribes did not exist as a nation.


Contrary to the claim, that text is initially talking about their return after exile.

It isn't saying ALL tribes are returning in full as a nation.

Yet there were representatives from other tribes than Judah and Benjamin that did return.

For one thing the tribe of Simeon was merged into the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Levi was also present.
When the northern kingdom was under attack, many fled to Judah. Some historians indicate that Jerusalem expanded greatly during that time.

We find Israelites were dwelling in the cities of Judea
2 Cor 31:6 And [concerning] the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah.

Actually from Jewish Historians we hear that all the twelve tribes of Israel were very much in evidence to the people of Jerusalem in the first century. One of the most erroneous teachings being disseminated today is that the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel were lost.



A lot of Houteff's teachings seem to make a big thing out of any reference to Israel, with all the illogical conclusions that those texts can't be referring to history because the house of Israel was "lost".

James, who wrote a book in scripture, must have known where members of the twelve tribes of Israel were in the first century and he addressed his letter to them. "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, greeting" (James 1:1).

James letter to these 12 tribes shows they themselves were in touch with Jerusalem and the teachings of the Holy Scriptures.

The apostle Paul also seemed to know people from the twelve tribes:
"And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come" (Acts 26:6,7).

The new Testament speaks of the House of Israel as being present.
Luke 1:68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luke 7:9 I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Jeremiah's gathering applies to the return of the exiles
-- referring to the re-gathering near the beginning of the 490 years.

"He declared that it was not His purpose to establish in this world a temporal kingdom." AA 30

yes, true words from Christ, however we must balance that with SOP as follows--

That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today. He has “let out His vineyard unto other husbandmen,” even to His covenant-keeping people, who faithfully “render Him the fruits in their seasons.”

Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people.

God's word to Israel was six convenants and one of them was to return them to Palestine, as His word promises over and over again in OT.

So what do we have one text against another? God forbid. This is where the Spirit of Truth must guide (John 16:13)

Ded-I guess Jerusalem will not be very safe if only a few will be left


Mocking His word again. God help you. We have attempted to show you already , (which you rejected) that each of the prophets spoke more for "US" than for their own time. And that "Israel" is indicative of the SDA church today. Gave many references but one of the clear ones is Testimonies, vol, 9, p.164.

Ded-It isn't saying ALL tribes are returning in full as a nation.

Oh yeah? Sorry if you cannot see the plain word of God, but it says " Israel and Judah" which are the WHOLE nation of Israel--all 12 tribes. You again deny the plain word of God and must destroy it's clear word to further your "no-kingdom" agenda- sad!

This reminds me of Satan and his same way of destroying God's plain word--God said 'You shall die" if they ate the fruit. Satan said "you shall not die". The clear word of God--destroyed. His tatics have not changed!

Ded- Actually from Jewish Historians we hear that all the twelve tribes of Israel were very much in evidence to the people of Jerusalem in the first century. One of the most erroneous teachings being disseminated today is that the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel were lost.

Let us run with this idea. if we say that the 10 tribes were STILL in existance in James's time or any other time, what do we have? A prophecy STILL not fulfilled! So this promise is made from the mouth of God (word) and shall not be returned void. There are no contingencies here. Search it out.

Show a contingency of this promise to us by way of Jerimiah

So what we have here is God's promise to restore His people to His land--Israel. Now, if you think that means the unbelieving Jews, then I can't help you, as the Spirit of Truth is truly stuck in your life.

I do give you credit , you are crafty and pull some tricky rabbits out of the hats . But those who look deeper can see your twistings and agenda, very clear.

It comes down to "Dedication's" interpretations against God's PLAIN word and promises. Be very serious here my brethren. Private interpretations lead to a sad sad road and outcome.


Ded- Jeremiah's gathering applies to the return of the exiles
-- referring to the re-gathering near the beginning of the 490 years.

Again, never since Jeremiah's day do we have any Scriptural evidence that ALL 12 tribes came back to Israel. Provide us this, or SOP, not your mixing and splicing together quotes from here and there to make believe your idea.

"He declared that it was not His purpose to establish in this world a temporal kingdom." AA 30

Yes, we do need to balance the statements --
And which way do the balances tip?

The balance of EGW writings do NOT support this kingdom in Palestine theory.
You are taking a vague quote here and their and trying to make it fit your kingdom theory; it's like taking a chisel and chipping off a few little pebbles and slivers of rock from the boulders of evidence on the other side and trying to weigh them in the balance against those heavy boulders that deny the theory.

Let's go through the quote above-- what does she mean by it?

What is it that God proposed to do through ancient Israel?
And what is it that is being fulfilled?

EGW gives the answer -- you don't have to speculate


Chapter 59 in Prophets and Kings

"The House of Israel"
In proclaiming the truths of the everlasting gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, God's church on earth today is fulfilling the ancient prophecy, "Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit." Isaiah 27:6. The followers of Jesus, in co-operation with heavenly intelligences, are rapidly occupying the waste places of the earth; and, as the result of their labors, an abundant fruitage of precious souls is developing. Today, as never before, the dissemination of Bible truth by means of a consecrated church is bringing to the sons of men the benefits foreshadowed centuries ago in the promise to Abraham and to all Israel,--to God's church on earth in every age,--"I will bless thee, . . . and thou shalt be a blessing." Genesis 12:2.


This promise of blessing should have met fulfillment in large measure during the centuries following the return of the Israelites from the lands of their captivity. It was God's
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design that the whole earth be prepared for the first advent of Christ, even as today the way is preparing for His second coming. At the end of the years of humiliating exile, God graciously gave to His people Israel, through Zechariah, the assurance: "I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain." And of His people He said, "Behold, . . . I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness." Zechariah 8:3, 7, 8.

These promises were conditional on obedience. The sins that had characterized the Israelites prior to the captivity, were not to be repeated. "Execute true judgment," the Lord exhorted those who were engaged in rebuilding; "and show mercy and compassions every man to his brother: and oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother." "Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbor; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates." Zechariah 7:9, 10; 8:16.

Rich were the rewards, both temporal and spiritual, promised those who should put into practice these principles of righteousness. "The seed shall be prosperous," the Lord declared; "the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things. And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so I will save you, and ye shall be a blessing." Zechariah 8:12, 13.

As a nation, the people of Israel, while desiring the advent of the Messiah, were so far separated from God in heart and life that they could have no true conception of the character or mission of the promised Redeemer. Instead of desiring redemption from sin, and the glory and peace of holiness, their hearts were fixed upon deliverance from their national foes, and restoration to worldly power. They looked for Messiah to come as a conqueror, to break every yoke, and exalt Israel to dominion over all nations. Thus Satan had succeeded in preparing the hearts of the people to
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reject the Saviour when He should appear. Their own pride of heart, and their false conceptions of His character and mission, would prevent them from honestly weighing the evidences of His Messiahship.

For more than a thousand years the Jewish people had waited the coming of the promised Saviour. Their brightest hopes had rested upon this event. For a thousand years, in song and prophecy, in temple rite and household prayer, His name had been enshrined; and yet when He came, they did not recognize Him as the Messiah for whom they had so long waited. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not." John 1:11. To their world-loving hearts the Beloved of heaven was "as a root out of a dry ground." In their eyes He had "no form nor comeliness;" they discerned in Him no beauty that they should desire Him. Isaiah 53:2.

In the parable of the vineyard, Christ near the close of His earthly ministry called the attention of the Jewish teachers to the rich blessings bestowed upon Israel, and in these showed God's claim to their obedience. Plainly He set
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before them the glory of God's purpose, which through obedience they might have fulfilled. Withdrawing the veil from the future, He showed how, by failure to fulfill His purpose, the whole nation was forfeiting His blessing and bringing ruin upon itself.


Having portrayed before the priests their crowning act of wickedness, Christ now put to them the question, "When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?" The priests had been following the narrative with deep interest; and without considering the relation of the subject to themselves, they joined
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with the people in answering, "He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

Unwittingly they had pronounced their own doom. Jesus looked upon them, and under His searching gaze they knew that He read the secrets of their hearts. His divinity flashed out before them with unmistakable power. They saw in the husbandmen a picture of themselves, and they involuntarily exclaimed, "God forbid!"

Solemnly and regretfully Christ asked: "Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Matthew 21:34-44.


Christ would have averted the doom of the Jewish nation if the people had received Him. But envy and jealousy made them implacable. They determined that they would not receive Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. They rejected the Light of the world, and henceforth their lives were surrounded with darkness as the darkness of midnight. The doom foretold came upon the Jewish nation. Their own fierce passions, uncontrolled, wrought their ruin. In their blind rage they destroyed one another. Their rebellious, stubborn pride brought upon them the wrath of their Roman
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conquerors. Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple laid in ruins, and its site plowed like a field. The children of Judah perished by the most horrible forms of death. Millions were sold to serve as bondmen in heathen lands.

The next paragraph in Prophets and Kings is the one GLL quoted,
but read the full context in the post above and the paragraphs following:

CHAPTER 59 continued:

That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today. He has "let out His vineyard
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unto other husbandmen," even to His covenant-keeping people, who faithfully "render Him the fruits in their seasons." Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people.

Today the church of God is free to carry forward to completion the divine plan for the salvation of a lost race. For many centuries God's people suffered a restriction of their liberties. The preaching of the gospel in its purity was prohibited, and the severest of penalties were visited upon those who dared disobey the mandates of men. As a consequence, the Lord's great moral vineyard was almost wholly unoccupied. The people were deprived of the light of God's word. The darkness of error and superstition threatened to blot out a knowledge of true religion. God's church on earth was as verily in captivity during this long period of relentless persecution as were the children of Israel held captive in Babylon during the period of the exile.

But, thank God, His church is no longer in bondage. To spiritual Israel have been restored the privileges accorded the people of God at the time of their deliverance from Babylon. In every part of the earth, men and women are responding to the Heaven-sent message which John the revelator prophesied would be proclaimed prior to the second coming of Christ: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Revelation 14:7.
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No longer have the hosts of evil power to keep the church captive; for "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city," which hath "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication;" and to spiritual Israel is given the message, "Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Verse 8; 18:4. As the captive exiles heeded the message, "Flee out of the midst of Babylon" (Jeremiah 51:6), and were restored to the Land of Promise, so those who fear God today are heeding the message to withdraw from spiritual Babylon, and soon they are to stand as trophies of divine grace in the earth made new, the heavenly Canaan.

Ded--Yes, we do need to balance the statements --
And which way do the balances tip?

The balance of EGW writings do NOT support this kingdom in Palestine theory.

Notice clearly AGAIN, Dedication continues to use EGW's writings as the trump card if you will, meaning that when she says "balance" she means using EGW over Scripture. Scripture has about 10 to 1 reference FOR the pre-mil kingdom.

Inspired Quote--"That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today. He has “let out His vineyard unto other husbandmen,” even to His covenant-keeping people, who faithfully “render Him the fruits in their seasons.”

Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people."

Ded- You are taking a vague quote here and their and trying to make it fit your kingdom theory;

Now if that don't take the cake!! Let us look at those last words and see if you see vagueness there(?)

.. to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people."

You see people this is what Satan does with his people who know not that they are representing him by falsifying God's INSPIRED words and promises! Wow!

Now, concerning the rest of her post, remember as shown there are basically six main covenant promises made to old Israel, as follows- They are the following:

Abrahamic Covenant
Mosaic Covenant
Sabbatic Covenant
Palestinian or Land Covenant
Davidic Covenant
New Covenant

I've underlined to two covenants that concern our study--God pre-millennial kingdom. Please go to new thread (Isaiah 11 -strong evidence of His kingdom) and look at one of the most powerful and clear Scriptures that convincingly shows He will indeed set His upcoming kingdom up in Israel. This report is know as rock solid, if one truly wishes to see what it plainly says.

Do you believe Ellen White explains the Scriptures, or only if she agrees to how you interpret them?

You're making no sense.

Who is "to them"?

What's even more interesting -- if you go back a page and look over the last couple posts.

I simply took the quote from EGW which GLL used as his "trump card" and posted the full context from which he had pulled that quote.

Kland-- You're making no sense.

Who is "to them"?

Have you thought about following the prior posts before jumping to conclusions.

here's the quote stated in a couple posts prior to the one you cited--

"That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today. He has “let out His vineyard unto other husbandmen,” even to His covenant-keeping people, who faithfully “render Him the fruits in their seasons.”

Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people." (Prophets and Kings, page 713-714)

Kland- Do you believe Ellen White explains the Scriptures, or only if she agrees to how you interpret them?

Absolutely I believe EGW was inspired and helps us to understand Scripture. That being said I do not believe her writings supersede the Bible as she herself told us.

GLL, thank you for confirming what I was saying.


You say she does not supersede the Bible. Do you see places where she disagrees with it, or you mean what, exactly?

I mean that our "understanding" of her writings must not be that "it" supersedes the Scriptures. A perfect example of that is using Testimonies, vol. 1, p.68-69 as "proof" that there will be little children in the new earth. Scripture clearly points to no marriages or "given" in marriage(impregnating). Additionally it tells us we will 'grow up" just as calves grow up.

As far as some of her more difficult areas of writings, I would say that it may appear she is disagreeing or changing our understanding of Scripture, but that truly is where the "Spirit of Truth" must be prayerfully relied upon and seeked in counsel.

Basically what that is saying -- is -- Houteff's interpretations of scripture supersede EGW's writings, as well as anything anyone finds in scripture.

When you use scripture to reason with a Houteff follower they will accuse you of "private interpretation".

If you use EGW's writings to reason with them they will accuse you of "pitting" her writings against scripture.
When in actuality it is Houteff's interpretation of scripture that is being disagreed with.

But then -- just read the Zechariah "interpretation" presented by GLL in "Summary of our Zechariah 4 Lesson" thread.
It twists the meaning of that passage to come to the conclusion that ONLY Houteff is the final word on how Scripture is to be interpreted.



The "other" that GLL is referring to is V. Houteff.
And one just has to read the prologue to this thread to realize SR followers teach EGW was given only partial truth, while they think Houteff gives the full truth.

Thus in their minds Houteff is THE final and complete authority on the interpretation of scripture and woe be to anyone who doesn't bow in low submission to his final word. They must be utterly destroyed and then the Houteff believers "think" they will set up a righteous kingdom in present Jerusalem.



However, -- it can't be true.
EGW gives a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ENDTIME PICTURE than Houteff.
While Houteff uses a lot of Adventist thought and millions of short EGW quotes, it is still evident they are not presenting the same message.

The covenants

The OT presents the covenants of the types -- shadows of the reality.

Christ stands in the center of the covenants of types, and the covenant of the reality (the everlasting covenant.

The covenant of types had a sanctuary on earth
The covenant of reality points us to the heavenly sanctuary

The covenant of types had a system of animal sacrifice to typify the need of a substitute to bare sins
The covenant of reality, Christ Whose blood alone could atone for our sins, died upon Calvary.

The covenant of types had human priests on earth
The covenant of reality points us to Christ our Great High Priest in heaven.

The covenant of types had a human king on an earthly throne.
The covenant of reality points us to Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords whose kingdom will be eternal.

The covenant of types had a city -- called Jerusalem built by man
The covenant of reality points us to a city whose builder and maker is God -- a heavenly city the NEW Jerusalem.

The covenant of types had a small piece of earthly land in Palestine called the promised land.
The covenant of reality says the saints will inherit the earth, the whole earth is their promised inheritance.


Through Christian history we see religionists trying to re-establish the types of the covenants in the place of the reality of God's covenant.

Are the "shadows" that only typified reality the glorious hope?
Or is the reality the glorious hope?

The kingdom that is the crowning hope of every child of God, is the heavenly kingdom where we can be forever with our Savior.

Yes, I was starting to think that. Except not Houteff's but GLL's interpretations. Kind of, she's inspired except where I disagree kind of attitude.

For he does say: I mean that our "understanding" of her writings must not be that "it" supersedes the Scriptures.

Meaning also, that his "understanding" of Scriptures is the "it" which supersedes the Scriptures.

Oh no! I guess I had forgotten he was a sheperd's rod or unbranched-davidian. That is just so wrong. Sounds kind of like the same concept of "the last pope" people. But a good example of Houteff/GLL's private interpretation superseding the Scriptures!

Ded- When you use scripture to reason with a Houteff follower they will accuse you of "private interpretation".

Now this is funny! This is coming from someone who has be warned repeatedly that she should cease from doing private interpretations.

Let us examine proof--

1) She has continued to point to Isaiah 14:13-14 as pointing to the time in the last days, during the Loud Cry, when Satan shall establish his throne in Israel.

We have asked several times to show supporting INSPIRATION (not her ideas) for this.She has refused to supply anything. Truth seekers are not fooled. This is private interpretation beyond doubt.

Quite the contrary SOP repeatedly applies this verse to long ago in heaven, see the following--

"Evil originated with Lucifer, who rebelled against the government of God. Before his fall he was a covering cherub, distinguished by his excellence. God made him good and beautiful, as near as possible like himself. Of him it is written, “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” But self-exaltation entered his heart. Inspiration records the charge against him: “Thine heart wast lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness.” “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend unto heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” RH September 24, 1901, par. 4

Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge a desire for self-exaltation. 'Thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God.' 'Thou hast said, . . . I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation....I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.' Verse 6; Isaiah 14:13, 14. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of His creatures, it was Lucifer's endeavor to win their service and homage to himself. And coveting the honor which the infinite Father had bestowed upon His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power which it was the prerogative of Christ alone to wield. (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan – The Conflict of the Ages in the Christian Dispensation, Chapter 29 – The Origin of Evil, pp. 494-495)

Lucifer had said, "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; . . . I will be like the Most High." Isa. 14:13, 14. But Christ, "being in the form of God, counted it not a thing to be grasped to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." (Phil. 2:6, 7) (Desires of Ages, p.19)

"Speaking of Satan, the prophet testifies: “For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven [or, I will be exalted in heaven], I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:13, 14. That this heaven-daring aspiration was the channel through which evil came into the universe, and caused Satan to fall, Paul, in 1 Timothy 3:6, affirms where he calls pride the “condemnation” of the Devil." (Looking unto Jesus, p.32)

Satan wanted to stand where the Lamb stands. He wanted to win all humanity to his side and chain us to his chariot, his lost slaves suited only for destruction. He wanted to stand victorious, having defeated God in the great controversy. But instead the Lamb stands--with the 144,000! He stands on mount Zion. Again God says of Mount Zion, "For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth" Isaiah 62:1.

In order to build her false agenda that Satan will control Israel in the last days she must pull quotes for all directions to build "her" case.

As we continue to show unconditional Scripture showing that the kingdom starts in Israel prior to the second coming, she must use anything she can to dis-prove this. But she can't go against the plain "Thus sayeth the Lord" and in the end people like this will be found out as wanting.

Ded-But then -- just read the Zechariah "interpretation" presented by GLL in "Summary of our Zechariah 4 Lesson" thread.
It twists the meaning of that passage to come to the conclusion that ONLY Houteff is the final word on how Scripture is to be interpreted.

Again this is funny. Notice she slams down this Zech. 4 prophecy because she does not agree with it, yet not once does she explain what Zech 4 means! brother Houteff , as we who have studied his writings unlocked this prophecy, but surface readers like Dedication can only tear down instead of offering a better conclusion.

You see brethren God's word has meaning in all of it and this Zech. 4 is meant for us to know how to interpret Scripture correctly, let us understand this by God's grace. here is the report on it and if you'll take the time to read it you'll see that there can be no other clear understanding of it because the beauty of the understanding is indeed from God. Zech. 4 report

And once again GLL thinks Satan's aims in Isaiah 14 apply only to the beginning of his rebellion?!!!

He wrote: "SOP repeatedly applies this verse to long ago in heaven"

Of course they apply then -- that was the beginning. But they most certainly did NOT end there.

Are we to believe him and think Satan isn't going to make a tremendous effort to fulfil his ambitions NOW, knowing that time is short?

Indeed I do NOT agree with SR interpretation of Zechariah 4.
Houteff's followers obviously use that passage to place Houteff as the sole interpreter of scripture.

the link says: "Thus, the TWO PIPES are a symbol of the prophets whom we now primarily recognize as: E.G. WHITE and V.T. HOUTEFF"




And even though a massive cut and paste use of EGW writings is used extensively to support Houteff's ideas, when anyone points out that the context of those quotes do NOT support Houteff, they will demand you must not quote her!!!!

Ded- And once again GLL thinks Satan's aims in Isaiah 14 apply only to the beginning of his rebellion?!!!


Yes, Inspiration says so. Do you have something from INSPIRATION to show us? infact there are about 4 or 5 SOP verses that say this is describing his rebellion in heaven.

Only you, Dedication cast this verse to YOUR own timeline in YOUR own mind.

Notice once again Dedication must "put down" something to build herself up. Does she offer something for us as to the meaning of Zech. 4? Of course not.

Nowhere can you quote me a passage from EGW that says it applies ONLY to the beginning of the rebellion.

Indeed the readers are intelligent enough to realize Satan's ambitions didn't end when he was cast out of heaven.

Ded- Nowhere can you quote me a passage from EGW that says it applies ONLY to the beginning of the rebellion.

Amazing! What she is really saying is this--" because Inspiration failed to provide me a reference to support my idea, I'll do it anyway."

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (1 Peter 1:20)

Satan likes to use just these people who will "run ahead of Inspiration". If God's INSPIRED prophets do not deal with an issue such as Inspiration does not deal with Isaiah 14:13-14, then who is Dedication to do so?

No -- inspiration didn't provide you with a reference to support your idea that Satan's ambitions mentioned in Isaiah 14 ONLY apply to the beginning of the rebellion.

Inspiration is clear that in the end the whole world (almost) will be worshipping the dragon, the beast and his image.

Ded-Inspiration is clear that in the end the whole world (almost) will be worshipping the dragon, the beast and his image.

That is truth and error. Yes Satan will have a world-wide system BUT God will have a strong and powerful Theocracy based in Israel. No, the whole world won't be "worshiping the dragon". The Lord's great "army" the 144,000, filled with His Spirit shall go out and bring in a "great multitude" from Babylon.

Obviously you haven't learned the truth of the "great multitude".

Prior to the second coming the whole world (almost) will be worshipping the dragon, the beast, and his image.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast (Papal Roman): and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

13:12 And he (the beast with lamblike horns) exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

As it was in the days of Noah....
As it was in the days of Lot.....

How was it in those days?




7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

John just finished describing the sealing of the last generation of faithful, in preparation to stand through the time of trouble.


The number of the saved who are alive as probation closes is small and the question arises --" when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
After seeing the saved of the last generation sealed, John is shown a glimpse into heaven.

And it is THERE, in heaven, that he see's a multitude, that he couldn't count.

This is a glimpse into heaven for we see God's throne, we see Christ the Lamb, we see the saints in white robes. We see angels around the throne.

These are the unnumbered saved from the earth from all ages. Though the count appeared small while God's people go through the end time persecution, God gives a glimpse into the future
when in that great day of the Lord the great trumpet shall be blown, there shall gather before the glorious throne of the most high God, "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," and will cry "with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."


First read in 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, that when the Lord comes and the trump of God is sounded, the dead in Christ arise, and then those who are alive are caught up together with him to meet the Lord in the air. Here at the first step we find them taken away from the earth, and caught up to the Lord Jesus "in the air."
Secondly, read in Rev. 19:1 of a great voice of much people in Heaven, saying, "Alleluia; salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God."

Now we read in Rev. 7:9, 10, " I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

"This throne is in Heaven. Rev. 4:2. Therefore it is certain that the multitude of the righteous, who are raised in the first resurrection prior to the millennium, who are caught up to meet him in the air, to whom judgment is given, and who reign with Christ a thousand years,—it is certain that these are taken to Heaven, to the presence of the throne of God, and that there they worship him and the Lamb; it is certain that they spend the millennium in Heaven, and that is where they are priests of God and of Christ, and where they reign with Christ the thousand years."

Ded-Prior to the second coming the whole world (almost) will be worshipping the dragon, the beast, and his image.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast (Papal Roman): and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

************************************

Do we see the whole statement? It shows that only those who are "not written in the book". This does not limit the amount who will be found written, even among the living at Christ's coming.

************************************

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Ded- John just finished describing the sealing of the last generation of faithful, in preparation to stand through the time of trouble.


The number of the saved who are alive as probation closes is small and the question arises --" when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

After seeing the saved of the last generation sealed, John is shown a glimpse into heaven.

And it is THERE, in heaven, that he see's a multitude, that he couldn't count.

************************************

SOP statements are discerned concerning the GM as explained--

In "Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 9, pp. 267, 268, we find that Sr. White quotes Revelation 6:12-17 and 7:9-17 where it tells of the "great multitude" and how the wicked are to be frightened when Christ manifests His power prior to the commencement of the millennium.

Then she adds: "In these Scriptures two parties are brought to view. One party permitted themselves to be deceived, and took sides with those with whom the Lord has a controversy. They misinterpreted the messages sent them, and clothed themselves in robes of self-righteousness."

If the great multitude are the righteous dead of all ages how could they be living together with the wicked just before Christ's coming, and how could they while dead accept the messages? Would not John have seen them arise if they were the resurrected ones? If the Bible does not say they are the dead then what right have "those who have betrayed their trust"? (Sym Code, vol. 1, no. 18, p.8)

The palms in the hands of the great multitude (Rev. 7:9, 11), and the "victor's palm" placed "in every hand'' of "the unnumbered host of the redeemed" (The Great Controversy, p. 646), betoken two entirely different events: for the latter received both a "victor's palm and [a] shining harp," whereas the former had no harps but only palms. Clearly, then, while the palms and the harps of the redeemed hosts in heaven are actual guerdons of victory, the palms of the great multitude on earth are figurative victory-palms.(Tract 3, p.87)

I think we need to read what EGW says by reading what she actually wrote, not what Houteff tells us she said.

And when you read it - you will see that what I wrote agrees with her statement, not with Houteff's rearranging.





What two groups is she speaking about?
In which texts are these two groups described?

1) Those who run and beg the rocks to fall on them and hide them at Christ's coming. They permitted themselves to be deceived and looked to human devising for their righteousness.

2) AFTER THAT there is seen the Great Multitude standing before God's throne in victory in the heavenly realms.

When Christ comes the trumpet sounds, the righteous dead rise from the grave, and together with the living saints rise in the air to meet Jesus and return to heaven with Him. But the other group -- the wicked flee in terror and are consumed by the brightness of His coming.

The great multitude includes the risen saints and the 144,000 translated saint, as they rise together to meet the Lord in the air. (see 1 Thes 4)

The important thing NOW is to have Christ's kingdom of GRACE transforming our lives, so we will be in the right group!
The risen saints HEARD and responded to God's gift of salvation while they lived their natural life. The kingdom of God's grace was INSIDE them, and now they are raised to enter the glorious NEW Jerusalem in heaven.
When Christ comes it is TOO late to change.

I agree with you, Dedication, on the above understanding.

The multitudes have palm branches in their hand and the 144000 have harps that require both hands to play.

The multitudes are the resurrected saints with the silver trumpet's sound and the 14400 are the alive at the Second Coming of Jesus which reaped with His sickle.

The saints redeemed from the earth will be placed in the inner circle in the kingdom of God. Next to the throne of God would be the four beasts, then the 24 Elders, then the 144000, the multitudes, the host of angels, and the universal beings, which make the perfect seven teams of choirs in heaven. You may find each team sings song(s) in total fourteen pieces in the book of Revelation.

The Great Multitude is indeed a interesting subject. Here is a short comprehensive report on this subject. It's a whole new study, which we may address soon God willing.

The Great Multitude

A).

In Rev chapter 7, there are two groups of redeemed saints: the multitudes and the 144,000.

It is pretty simple to distinguish two groups of saints when you think about the time when Jesus is coming again to receive His saints into the Kingdom of God.

1 Thess 4:16-17 “…(1)the dead in Christ shall rise first: …Then (2)we which are alive …shall be caught up…”

During the 6,000 years many saints have gone into asleep in the Lord with the blessed hope of the resurrection. Therefore, in the day of resurrection they will arise all together to meet the Lord in the air at the Second Coming of Jesus, there should be the great multitudes of saints.

The 144,000 are the remnant that go through a time of trouble, “such as never was since there was a nation (Dan 12:1)”. They are the ‘left over’ of the living saints at the time of the Second Coming of Jesus.

The resurrect dead and the living alive will meet the Lord in the air together. Jesus has reveal to us that there are only the two groups of the saints to translate into the kingdom of God at His second coming.

Please compare the 1 Cor 15:51-52 and Rev14:15-16.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [/b]last trump[b]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Cor 15:51-52

“And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud [/b]thrust in his sickle[b] on the earth; and the earth was reaped.” Rev 14:15-16

The Scriptures tell us that there will be saints who resurrect with the sound of the trumpet and who will be reaped by the sickle (Rev 14:15-16).

Early Writing Pg 16.1 “Then Jesus’[/b] silver trumpet[b] sounded, as He descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised His eyes and hands to heaven, and cried, “Awake! Awake! Awake! Ye that sleep in the dust, and arise.” Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The[/b] 144,000[b] shouted, “Alleluia!” as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.”

Joel 3:13 “Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.”

Doubtlessly, the saints who will be reaped by the sickle are the 144,000.

B).

The song of the 144,000 in Rev 15:2-4 indicates that they have a lot to tell their stories in a song which evidently expressed in a long piece of music which
no one can sing but them(Rev 14:3). It is the song of their experiences while going through the time of trouble “such as never was since there was a nation (Dan 12:1)”.

However, the song of the multitudes is expressed rather simple, “And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb (Rev 7:10)”

Thus it is also noticeable in their piece of song. The short piece sang by the innumerable multitudes and the long piece of the song sang by the remnant of 144,000.


C).

The number seven is a predominant number, which appears more than 54 times in the Book of Revelation and has many more allusions of seven.

There are seven teams of the heavenly choir. Before sin has entered into the universe, there were only four groups of choir; (1)the throne of God, (2)the four beasts, (3)the host of angels and (4)the universal beings.

At the completion of the redemption, the saints from the earth (3,4,5) will be placed in the inner circle of the choirs that makes the perfect seven teams.


The universal beings(7)
The host of angels(6)
The multitudes(5)
The 144,000(4)
The 24 Elders(3)
The four beasts (2)
The throne of God(1)



D).

The Early Writing mentions of the 144,000 eight times. Each time the context indicates as the literal number of 144,000.

E).

The instruments of the two groups are also different when they sing a triumphant song of redemption in the Kingdom of God.

The multitudes have their palm branches in their hand while they sing praise; “saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb (Rev 7:10)”

The 144,000 sing with harps in their hands.

Rev 15:2-4 “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.”

The multitudes simply wave the palm branch in their hand. But the 144,000 have learned their song by experiences in the earth in order to play the harps with their two hands.

The Desire of Ages page 580 said:

“The triumphal ride of Christ into Jerusalem was the dim [/b]foreshadowing of His coming [b]in the clouds of heaven with power and glory, amid the triumph of angels and the rejoicing of the saints.”

The Desire of Ages in Pg 570 said:

“The multitude hailed Him as Messiah, their King. ….All were happy and excited; … They were unable to present Him with costly gifts, but they spread their outer garments as a carpet in His path, and they also strewed the [/b]leafy branches of the olive and the palm[b] in the way. They could lead the triumphal procession with no royal standards, but they cut down the spreading palm boughs, Nature’s emblem of victory, and waved them aloft with loud acclamations and hosannas.”

These multitudes of the time at Jesus’ triumphant entry to the Jerusalem signify the multitudes of the saints in the kingdom of God that have resurrected from the dead.

“Those whom His voice had awakened from the sleep of death were in that throng. Lazarus, whose body had seen corruption in the grave, but who now rejoiced in the strength of glorious manhood, led the beast on which the Saviour rode.” The Desire of Ages 572.2

The multitudes were led by the Lazarus, which signifies those saints resurrected from the grave would be waving the palm branches in the heaven.

Conclusively, I believe that the 144,000 are the literal number of the firstfruits that are alive and the great multitudes are the resurrected saints.

Thank you sister Karen, for your well thought out report on the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. I agree with some of it and dis-agree with others.

While I haven't seen much of your reports, I believe you have somewhat of a good handle on things, though I don't think you are fully aware of the Elijah message or proper placement of end times and events.

That's ok, we're here to learn ( at least most of us anyway :-)

I respect people's thoughts and ideas, I only ask that when a back and forth study is made between parties that "Truth" be the ultimate goal and that "admitting" it when we see we are corrected--be made.

Unfortunately I found this severely lacking in a certain ones on this site.

The subject of the 144,000 and Great Multitude is indeed a vast one. I can come to this subject from many angles but let me start from Isaiah.

Do you have any idea what the Lord is telling us through this Inspiration?

"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD." (Isaiah 66:15-20)

Before we go forward with a study on the Great Multitude, who will from a part of God's theocracy kingdom, let us look at Inspired counsel.

"Precious truths that have long been in obscurity are to be revealed in a light that will make manifest their sacred worth; for God will glorify His Word, that it may appear in a light in which we have never before beheld it." Testimonies on Sabbath School Work, p. 62.

" . . . Notwithstanding the agencies combined against the truth, a large number take their stand upon the Lord's side." Great Controversy p. 612.

The judgment is in two sections, first the judgment for the dead (which began in 1844), then the judgment for the living. Only when the judgment for the dead is completed can the judgment for the living begin (See: 1 Selected Messages p. 125). Just as the judgment for the dead dealt with the professed people of God, so also the judgment for the living begins with the professed people of God (His remnant church). See Great Controversy pp. 428, 480.

The 144,000 are sealed in God's remnant church, but they are ONLY THE FIRST FRUITS (Rev. 14:4), the first one's to be judged in the FINAL HARVEST when the JUDGMENT FOR THE LIVING BEGINS. This is why they are called FIRST FRUITS, they are the first one's judged in the second section of the judgment, when the judgment for the living begins.

"Let the ministers awake, let them take in the situation. The work of judgment begins at the sanctuary." Testimonies to Ministers p. 431, see also 1 Peter 4:17, and Great Controversy pp. 428, 480.

Prominent Point-- The saints get sealed prior to the time of trouble (specifically the Sunday Law)

The angels that are holding back the four winds are told: "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." Rev. 7-3.

"The time is coming when we cannot sell at any price. The decree will soon go forth prohibiting men to buy or sell of any man save him that hath the mark of the beast. We came near having this realized in California a short time since; but this was only the threatening of the blowing of the four winds.

As yet they are held by the four angels. We are not just ready. There is a work yet to be done, and then the angels will be bidden to let go, that the four winds may blow upon the earth. That will be a decisive time for God's children, a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Testimonies, Vol. 5 p. 152.

"Just before we entered it [the time of trouble], we all received the seal of the living God. Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds." 7 Bible Commentary 968, E . G . White .

The last section of the final harvest which is to be reaped from Babylon is reaped within one symbolic hour, from the eleventh to the twelfth hour.

Remember, Babylon only reigns for one hour (Rev. 18:10,19) from the eleventh to the twelfth and then God delivers His people at midnight. (See: Great Controversy p. 636)

"There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast." Evangelism pp. 234, 235.

Two groups are harvested in the earth's final harvest, the 144,000, First Fruits and the Great Multitude , Second fruits, of Revelation 7: 9.

**********************************************

Ok , let's get down to the nitty gritty!

After John saw the sealing of the 144,000, first fruits, (Rev. 7:1-8,14:4) that came from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel, he was privileged to behold another group of saints that was so vast that they could not be numbered. This un-numbered host of saints did not come from Israel like the previous group (the 144,000) but they came from every nation, kindred, people and tongues. The clothing of the great multitude is described as "having white robes and palms in their hands."

What do the palms and white robes mean?

"The palms signify that they have gained the victory, and the white robes that they have been clothed with the righteousness of Christ." 7 Bible Commentary, 970 E.G. White.

It is interesting to note that in Rev. 7, the clothing of the 144,000 is not described. However the Spirit of Prophecy tells us that they wore a mantle like Elijah and had crowns.


"Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet." Life Sketches pp. 66,67.

One of the elders from the judgment scene (Rev. 4:4, 10, 5:8, 9), asks the question concerning the Great Multitude, "What are these arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?" Rev. 7: 13.

The answer was, "These are they which came out of great tribulation." Rev. 7:14. This shows us plainly that the Great Multitude will come into God's church during the time of trouble.

"The message of the renewing power of God's grace will be carried to every country and clime, until the truth shall belt the world. Of the number of them that shall be sealed will be those who have come from every nation and kindred and tongue and people. From every country will be gathered men and women who will stand before the throne of God and before the Lamb, crying, "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." Revelation 7:10. But before this work can be accomplished, we must experience here in our own country the work of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts." Counsels to Parents and Teachers p. 532.

This statement from the Spirit of Prophecy must be referring to the Great Multitude which come out of every nation, kindred, tongue and people. (Rev. 7:9), as the 144,000 come Only from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel. (Rev . 7:4-8).

"The great issue so near at hand will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain. . . ." Selected Messages Book 3 p. 385.

It must be that the 144,000 are God's purified ministry that goes to every nation, kindred, tongue and people to bring in the great multitude during the Loud Cry into God's remnant church.

It is during the blowing of the four winds (mark of the beast), which is the beginning of the time of trouble that the Loud Cry goes forward, when the call is made to "those other sheep which are not of this fold", to come out of Babylon.

"The Spirit is poured out upon all who will yield to its promptings, and, casting off all man's machinery, his binding rules and cautious methods, they will declare the truth with the might of the Spirit's power. Multitudes will receive the faith and join the armies of the Lord." Evangelism p. 700.

"When the earth is lighted with the glory of the angel of Revelation eighteen, the religious elements, good and evil, will awake from slumber, and the armies of the living God will take the field (MS 175, 1899)." 7 Bible Commentary p. 983, E.G. White.

"Clad in the armor of Christ's righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. "Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners" (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer." Prophets and Kings p. 725.

GREAT MULTITUDE, RESURRECTED OR TRANSLATED SAINTS?

We have found in our study thus far that the great multitude come into God's church during the time of trouble (mark of the beast), so let w continue to search the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy to find out whether the great multitude are resurrected, or translated saints?

Notice how Inspiration tells us the great multitude will not suffer from the "heat" on the earth.

"They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat." Revelation 7:16.

"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat,..." Revelation 16:8,9.

The great multitude are still here during the fourth plague, the plague of heat.

"But in the midst of the time of trouble that is coming,--a time of trouble such as has not been since there was a nation,--God's chosen people will stand unmoved. Satan and his host cannot destroy them, for angels that excel in strength will protect them." Testimonies, Vol. 9, p.17.

"...But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than that of Rome, will thereby honor popery above God. . .

And it is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive "the mark of the beast."' Great Controversy p. 449.


Thus we can clearly see that not only 144,000 are translated ("those that are expecting translation"), but also the great multitude ("those who would not bow to the decree of the beast or receive his mark").

Only two men have been translated from this earth without seeing death, Enoch and Elijah.

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;" Heb. 11:5.

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11.

Can we be so foolish as to suppose that it was just a coincidence that only two men have been translated from this earth without seeing death, or did the Lord have a specific purpose and reason?

*********************************************

Let us look at the all knowing and purposeful God and why those two men were translated. It is called --Type and Anti-type.

1) The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that both of these men, Enoch and Elijah, represents the saints which are to be translated from this earth at the Lord's second coming.

"...Elijah, representing those who at the close of earth's history will be changed from mortal to immortal and be translated to heaven without seeing death." Prophets and Kings p. 227.

"As Enoch was translated to heaven before the destruction of the world by water, so the living righteous will be translated from the earth before its destruction by fire." Patriarchs and Prophets p. 89.

Both men cannot typify the same group of saints to be translated , let us see why---

Elijah was an Israelite. His mantle was recognized as part of his clothing (2 Kings 2:8).

"As Elijah, divinely directed in seeking a successor, passed the field in which Elisha was plowing, he cast upon the young man's shoulders the mantle of consecration. During the famine the family of Shaphat had become familiar with the work and mission of Elijah, and now the Spirit of God impressed Elisha's heart as to the meaning of the prophet's act. To him it was the signal that God had called him to be the successor of Elijah." Prophets and Kings pp. 219,220.

The 144,000 are also Israelites (Rev. 7:4-8), and they are described as having white mantles as a part of their dress.

"Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square....And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet." Life Sketches pp. 66,67.

Elijah must typify the 144,000 translated saints.

If Elijah's mantle represented consecration, then in order to be consistent we would conclude that since the 144,000 all wear mantles, it would suggest that they are also especially consecrated to the service of God.

"And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised his lovely voice and said, 'Only the 144,000 enter this place, and we shouted, 'Alleluia."' Early Writings p. 19.

Elijah must typify the 144,000 translated saints.

"And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised his lovely voice and said, 'Only the 144,000 enter this place, and we shouted, 'Alleluia."' Early Writings p. 19.

Enoch was not an Israelite. Therefore he cannot represent the same class of translated saints.

The great multitude's apparel is described as having white robes and palms in their hands. Rev. 7:9. Enoch also is described as having a palm in his hand. Early Writings p. 40.

"The 144,000 are the first to be brought to perfection of character in the gospel harvest of the last generation. They reach mature spiritual growth and are sealed and given the Holy Spirit in 'latter rain' showers, the purpose of which is to call the innumerable company of God's people out of spiritual Babylon before God's wrath is poured out upon the rejecters of His grace in the seven last plagues." See Revelation 7: 9. ("Signs of the Times", June 20, 1950 in an article entitled, "First Fruits of Redemption's Harvest" page 13.)

Chart

Come on GLL -- you aren't really here to learn.
You are here to indoctrinate people into Houteff's theology -- right?

To you anything contrary to Houteff's interpretations is "private interpretations" no matter how much EGW quotes or scripture is used.

Indeed you will even speak forcefully against quoting from EGW if her position does not agree with Houteff's interpretations, but yet use short portions of her writings extensively if you think it will underscore Houteff's view.

The problem is simply that I have previously studied into his views and found them sadly wanting, thus I know where things are going, even if the initial words seem reasonable.


Basically --
Houteff will say "Jerusalem" in prophecy is symbolic of the SDA church when referring to passages like Ezekiel 9. Insisting that Adventists must all be killed prior to the Sunday laws being enforced and prior to the "loud cry".

Then suddenly we are told, "Jerusalem" is literally that old city over their in Palestine, as the Shepherd Rod believers (144,000) need to head over to Jerusalem supposedly to establish a kingdom, a theocracy WITH A HUMAN KING, (which they call an antitype David) over there. This is supposed to be a kingdom of peace and safety, from which they go forth "as battle axes to break in pieces the nations, " ( verse in Jer. 51:20) to proclaim the loud cry from literal Jerusalem, gathering the "great multitude" from all over the world, including most of Babylon, to this earthly "kingdom"). All before Christ's second coming.


Yet, I read in scripture --
Rev. 19 when Christ comes, "the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him "


So is "Jerusalem" in these prophecies literal, or is it symbolic?
Or can one just arbitrarily change the meaning, so the "curses" fall on symbolic "Jerusalem" and all the blessings fall on literal ancient city of "Jerusalem"?

If the OT texts speaking of people "flowing to Jerusalem" mean people will actually be flowing to a literal kingdom in the literal Jerusalem over there in Palestine, then the verses in Ezekiel 9 --
" go through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.
And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. "
would ALSO refer to that literal kingdom in literal Jerusalem over there in Palestine.


And it might be closer to the true meaning -- ,
for Ezekiel 9, according to the message given EGW, (in GC 656) takes place during the seventh plague when the people, realizing they have been deceived turn on the false shepherds who have led them astray.


The truth --
Is that right now we need the "KINGDOM OF GRACE" to be firmly established in our hearts and minds.
Those who have that "internal kingdom" (See Luke 17:20-24)
established in their lives, that has transformed their hearts and minds, will receive the Latter Rain, and proclaim the "loud cry".

The final sealing takes place prior to the seven last plagues.

Don't look to any temporal kingdom here on this earth.
That is NOT where our hope or future lies.
We look for that city built without hands -- the NEW JERUSALEM in heaven, that will, after the 1000 years come down from heaven and only THEN will the eternal blessed glorious kingdom be on earth.

By the way --
the last quote in blue in GLL's post was NOT by EGW.

It was by a former Conference President, Taylor Bunch, published in the “Signs of the Times, June 20, 1950”.

There is not a consensus among Adventists on this subject of who comprises the 144,000 and who comprises the great multitude.

However, Adventists do NOT believe in a temporal theocratic kingdom in literal Jerusalem prior to the second coming of Christ.

Ded- Come on GLL -- you aren't really here to learn.
You are here to indoctrinate people into Houteff's theology -- right?

False. I am here to learn and share the Truth. it is you who shows you are not here to learn, rather in pompous (as someone else mentioned) style, try to cover up truth with your private un-inspired interpretations.

For example, and just one example--

After showing you clearly and repeatedly that "angels" (from SOP) are to do the solemn slaying in Ezekiel 9 church judgment--you continued to say they are "men". Now if that is not wanting to learn I don't know what is

Ded- The problem is simply that I have previously studied into his views and found them sadly wanting, thus I know where things are going, even if the initial words seem reasonable.

Ok if they are "wanting", then as brother Houteff said--"show us something better." For instance you slam his interpretation on Zech. 4 , yet just like the thief who takes and doesn't give back, you don't offer any idea what they prophecy means.

I truly think you almost think of yourself as some kind of inside interpreter, a high exalted class 'private interpreter". Yet truth seekers know that God's word dis-allows any private interpretations.(2 Peter 1:20-21)

But give it a try as you like to do, we're waiting for your Zech. 4 interpretation.

Ded-Basically --
Houteff will say "Jerusalem" in prophecy is symbolic of the SDA church when referring to passages like Ezekiel 9. Insisting that Adventists must all be killed prior to the Sunday laws being enforced and prior to the "loud cry".

First of all SOP says the Ezekiel 9 will be "fulfilled to the letter" (1888 materials, p.1303) So SOP clearly was "in context" addressing the SDA church as seen by the prior pages 1300-1302.

Second, SOP again warns the church about the "clean work" God will do (Ezek. 9) upon the church.

"And I saw that the Lord was whetting His sword in heaven to cut them down. Oh, that every lukewarm professor could realize the clean work that God is about to make among His professed people! Dear friends, do not deceive yourselves concerning your condition. You cannot deceive God." ( Testimonies, vol.1, p.190)

It is SOP who first connected "Jerusalem " to the SDA church, not V.T Houteff.

Ded- Then suddenly we are told, "Jerusalem" is literally that old city over their in Palestine, as the Shepherd Rod believers (144,000) need to head over to Jerusalem supposedly to establish a kingdom, a theocracy WITH A HUMAN KING, (which they call an antitype David) over there. This is supposed to be a kingdom of peace and safety, from which they go forth "as battle axes to break in pieces the nations, " ( verse in Jer. 51:20) to proclaim the loud cry from literal Jerusalem, gathering the "great multitude" from all over the world, including most of Babylon, to this earthly "kingdom"). All before Christ's second coming.

Dedication is obviously missing one point--God will do and perform "each of the covenant promises" He made to ancient Israel to His remnant church. One of those was the Davidical kingdom based in Israel. Of course dedication wants us to ignore this clear SOP reference. Her fight is not with brother Houteff it's with SOP against SOP.

No GLL, I am learning all the time -- just because I see your understanding widely departing from truth, does not mean I am not constantly learning and praying and studying.

It's very plain in GC 656, when and who will be fulfilling Ezekiel nines dreadful scenes -- and no it isn't angels.

Also, no -- I'm no "private" interpreter-- that's just another strawman. I seek my answers in scripture and in EGW's writings, as well as being open to the signs of the times, and how God has led the church in the past, and like everyone else -- God gives us minds to understand things, comparing scripture with scripture, comparing it with EGW writings. Everyone MUST be settled in their own minds as the Holy Spirit convicts them.


You are convinced Houteff has ultimate truth, I am convinced that he does NOT.
I see is that even though Houteff takes pieces of truth from these writings, the end conclusions he reaches are very different.
I have found he usually begins his studies with truth (which we find in scripture and EGW) but then he goes off on one of his private interpretations away from truth. In this he continues to take short quotes here and there from EGW and weaves them in to his ideas, to make it appear, he is in agreement-- though he is not.

If you REALLY want to know what EGW writes, a person needs to READ her writings WITHOUT Houteff's weavings.

The one who exalts himself is Houteff! Just about every prophecy he has bent to exalt himself as the infallible "private interpreter". The SR interpretation of Zechariah 4 just takes the cake on that one. There he is presented as the ONLY ultimate interpreter of scripture.


Also, you did not answer my question, only filled your whole post with accusations against me.

If as you say "Jerusalem" (which is spoken of as the literal city in Ezekiel) is symbolic of the SDA church scattered all over the world, in Ezekiel 9.

Then why do you maintain that "Jerusalem" be understood as a literal city in the prophecies of "blessings"?


Nor am I ignoring anything --
You want an earthly temporal kingdom with a human king over in Palestine. But I've read plenty of inspired things that, that is not the way it will be fulfilled to the church.

Indeed the true church is to proclaim the Three ANGEL'S message to the world -- and we are to do so NOW, we are NOT to wait for some human David, or returned dead (any returned dead prior to the seventh plague will be impersonating spirits) to lead us to war torn Palestine.

But those no more war, no more destroying, etc promises --
those blessings will be fulfilled in the NEW EARTH, in the New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven after the 1000 years.



I've explained it enough times that you should know that by now.

This thread is called "They Kingdom Come"

That is part of the Lord's prayer.
How does that kingdom come?

"The kingdom of God's grace is now being established, as day by day hearts that have been full of sin and rebellion yield to the sovereignty of His love. But the full establishment of the kingdom of His glory will not take place until the second coming of Christ to this world. {AG 347.3}

Not until the personal advent of Christ can His people receive the kingdom. The Saviour said: "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations. . . . Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:31-34). . . . When the Son of man comes, the dead are raised incorruptible and the living are changed. By this great change they are prepared to receive the kingdom. . . .
Man in his present state is mortal, corruptible; but the kingdom of God will be incorruptible, enduring forever. Therefore man in his present state cannot enter the kingdom of God. But when Jesus comes, He confers immortality upon His people; and then He calls them to inherit the kingdom of which they have hitherto been only heirs. {AG 347.4}

If "ye are Christ's," "all things are yours" (1 Corinthians 3:23, 21). But you are as a child who is not yet placed in control of his inheritance. God does not entrust to you your precious possession, lest Satan by his wily arts should beguile you, as he did the first pair in Eden. Christ holds it for you, safe beyond the spoiler's reach. {AG 347.5}

Could you tell us what your opinion of Houteff is? Who is he and of what relevance he has to anything?

Ded-It's very plain in GC 656, when and who will be fulfilling Ezekiel nines dreadful scenes -- and no it isn't angels.

Ezekiel 9 --"He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head." (Ezek. 9:1-10)[/color]

Ok let's look again at Dedications idea that Ezekiel 9 will be performed, not by angels, but by men (human beings) versus that from Inspiration.

Keep in mind that the Word says that there are to be two separations (one from the church and one form the world).


"The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark [SEAL] upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel." E. G. White, (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1161).


Angels Read the Mark—"What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption."
7BC 968.13

"The time of the harvest will fully determine the character of the two classes specified under the figure of the tares and the wheat. The work of separation is given to the angels of God, and not committed into the hands of any man." TM 47.2

"Angels keep a faithful record of every man's work, and as judgment passes upon the house of God, the sentence of each is recorded by his name, and the angel is commissioned to spare not the unfaithful servants, but to cut them down at the time of slaughter." (Test. for the Church, vol. 1, p.198)

When the destroying angel was to pass through Egypt, to destroy the first-born of man and beast, Israel was commanded to gather their children and families into their houses with them, and then mark their door-posts with blood, that the destroying angel might pass by their dwellings, and if they failed to go through with this process, there was no difference made between them and the Egyptians.

The destroying angel is soon to go forth again, not to destroy the first-born alone, but “to slay utterly old and young, both men, women and little children” who have not the mark.

Parents, if you wish to save your children, separate them from the world, keep them from the company of wicked children; for if you suffer them to go with wicked children, you cannot prevent them from partaking of their wickedness and being corrupted. It is your solemn duty to watch over your children, to choose the society at all times for them. (RH September 19, 1854, par. 12)

Do we need any more to dis-prove Dedication's private interpretations?

By the way, Dedication (which means Dedication to falsehood in my opinion) weaves so many false ideas it's hard to keep track , therefore i will address one false hood at a time to see where she will go with it. The truth will not be denied , and let us watch carefully for it!

I see he didn't answer -- but Shepherd Rod look to Houteff as the ultimate interpreter of scripture (as seen in their Zech. 4 "lesson")
GLL has made it quite clear that he thinks Houteff is Elijah the prophet to come.

Thus of course anyone that disagrees with Houteff's teachings is considered as "false teachers" and if they are Adventists they are think God will send his angels to kill them all so the Shepherd Rod people won't have any opposition to setting up their kingdom in ancient Jerusalem.




Adventists, however, have refuted that idea of gaining and having a kingdom on earth, since ever there was an Adventist.
So using EGW or Seventh-day Adventist name and teachings while yet making a temporal theocratic kingdom their main message, is totally inconsistent and contradictory.

It's very plain in GC 656, when and who will be fulfilling Ezekiel nines dreadful scenes -- and no it isn't angels.

This is the explanation EGW herself gives:



Notice, she writes:
Now the angel of death goes forth,

When?
This is after probation has closed for the world.
During the seventh plague when God delivers His people.

What happens?
"The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4}

How does it end?
" At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the City of God," (GC 657)





GLL writes: Keep in mind that the Word says that there are to be two separations (one from the church and one form the world).

So he wants you to keep in mind Houteff's interpretations-- but in reality there is only ONE close of probation - when Jesus closes the sanctuary work: and one general destruction at the very end, that begins when the deceived turn on those who led them away from truth and ends with Christ's coming when all unsaved perish.

The shaking/shifting of the church is NOT Ezekiel 9, it is a great TEST to come that will separate the committed from the uncommitted within the church. Multitudes give up the truth, to follow visions of earthly peace and acceptance, they will make life difficult for those who remain faithful to the truths in Christ, and yes, most will be alive when God delivers his people, and then the apostate experience awful regret. and it is then during the seventh plague that second part of Eze. 9 takes place.


"The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark [SEAL] upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel." E. G. White, (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 4, 1161).

It's not literally an angel with an ink horn writing a mark on people's foreheads -- further study reveals it's the Holy Spirit transforming the mind and character of the individual. (Eph. 1:13; 4:30, Heb. 10:16)
"Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen,
but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved" (4BC 1161)
Though angels do record it in the "books of heaven" and stand by us protecting us from the evil angels and helping us in many ways.

The sealing takes place BEFORE probation closes,
then probation closes, the plagues are poured out,
God delivers His people

Notice in GC 656 EGW says
Now the angel of death goes forth,
and how did things happen?

Read pages 655 to 657 of Great Controversy again.

Angels Read the Mark—"What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption."
7BC 968.13

When Christ comes, the angels are sent forth to gather the elect from the four corners of the earth, while the unsaved perish. To be gathered is to live, to be "left" is to be destroyed. Yes, the angels need to know who the sealed are!


"The time of the harvest will fully determine the character of the two classes specified under the figure of the tares and the wheat. The work of separation is given to the angels of God, and not committed into the hands of any man." TM 47.2




Now, Houteff, has his own interpretations of the harvest.

So we need see what EGW means when she writes about the harvest.

"The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. {COL 71.3}

Now Houteff will interject that it's only the end of probationary time for the church. BUT EGW does not say that, she says the end of probationary time.

And a little further EGW is plain.

" The Saviour does not point forward to a time when all the tares become wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest, the end of the world. Then the tares are bound in bundles to be burned, and the wheat is gathered into the garner of God. COL 72

The harvest is the end of the world, not some early end of probation for the church with life continuing for a long time yet as SRods build a kingdom and from this safe place go out to evangelize the world.

As we see in a lot of this SRod will quote EGW, but they reject her explanations of her own words.


Here are more explanations from her own pen:

Speaking of church members: "Unless they repent...They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons.

""But the general slaughter of all those who do not thus see the wide contrast between sin and righteousness, and do not feel as those do who stand in the counsel of God and receive the mark, is described in the order to the five men with slaughter weapons: 3T 267

EGW knows nothing about two destructions of the unsaved -- just one.

She states: —Both the parable of the tares and that of the net plainly teach that there is no time when all the wicked will turn to God. The wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest. The good and the bad fish are together drawn ashore for a final separation. {COL 123.1}

Again, these parables teach that there is to be no probation after the judgment. When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed. {COL 123.2}

Notice in that paragraph where EGW places the separation of wheat and tares -- it's after the work of the gospel is completed -- probation is ended.

Yet Houteff teaches that just concerns Adventists, and that the gospel work is just beginning at that time


So once again the whole thing centers around Houteff --
accept Houteff's kingdom theory or expect "angels" to kill you.

But the kingdom Houteff presents is a counterfeit -- ruled by a human antitypical David as king -- temporal, a supposed "theocracy" combination of church and state, prior to Christ's second coming.

We do not look to a religious kingdom with a human king on this old world. Surely no Adventist would be fooled by such a teaching as that.

Does seem odd he wouldn't stand up to support his own prophet.


Here's something else I bet he wouldn't answer:
Why did James quote Amos at that point and in that context? Do you think he meant the literal tabernacle of David?
I think obviously not. So what did James mean by that?

Kland-- Here's something else I bet he wouldn't answer:....

Now Kland , why in the world would I want to waste time with you, at least Dedication brings "some" points (not many) that make sense to the table. You, I find seriously wanting (lacking solid knowledge, let alone good questions and comments) and I shall not waste my time.

Well, not an unexpected avoidance.

"Although the doctrine of the Kingdom may not appear quite so complete under the lens of Sister White’s writings as under the lens of the Rod, one dare not thus superficially reject either, but must the more studiously compare both views of the doctrine under the super-lens of the Bible. He must keep in mind that we are not given license to harmonize the Bible with any other writings, but are charged to measure all others by It.(Answerer, vol.2, Q-42)


God will do and perform "each of the covenant promises" He made to ancient Israel to His remnant church. One of those was the Davidical kingdom based in Israel.

"The Rod does not teach either that Jerusalem is to be rebuilt, or that it is not to be rebuilt, as the capital city of the Kingdom, but only that the Kingdom in its beginning is to be set up in the promised land. And in confirmation of this truth Ezekiel prophesies of--

A NEW DIVISION OF THE LAND
The prophet presents a division of the land entirely different from that in Joshua’s time (Josh. 17): it is to be in strips from the east to the west; Dan is to have the first portion in the north, and Gad, the last portion in the south between the borders of these two are to be the portions of the rest of the tribes; the city is to be in the midst of the land (Ezek. 48).

The fact that such a division of the Promised Land has never been made, shows that it is yet future. Also the fact that the sanctuary is to be there, whereas it is not to be in the earth made new (Rev. 21:22), again proves that this unique setup is pre-millennial.

In addition, the twofold fact that the name of the city is “The Lord is There,” and that its location, according to the division of the land, necessarily must in some respects be different from that of old Jerusalem, shows that Jerusalem of today, the city proper, may not at all be rebuilt as a capital city of the coming Kingdom. (See Tract No. 12 The World Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow, 1941 Edition, pp. 52, 53).

If the Bible makes Itself clear on any subject It certainly does so on the subject of the Kingdom. And rightly so, for the Kingdom is the Christian’s crowning hope,

Satan’s Constant Target, the People’s Repeated Stumbling Block.

That the great controversy between Christ and Satan is over this crowning hope, the Kingdom, is seen from the Lord’s repeated instructions in the prophecies, in the types, and in the parables; from Satan’s constant effort to keep the human race out of it; and last, from human beings repeatedly being defeated in their warfare to become heirs of it.

Working determinedly from the beginning to plunge all humanity into hell, Satan conceived his major strategy of misleading them concerning the Kingdom. He succeeded with most of the Jews because they wanted the Kingdom set up before its appointed time or not at all. And he is succeeding with many of the Laodiceans today because now, when the time appointed actually has come, they want to have it later or not at all! What a paradox! What an irony! Indeed, as history repeats itself, so does folly!

The Bible says: “In the days of these kings [the kings that are symbolized by the ten toes of the great image] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed. ...It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms.” Dan. 2:44.

Observe that “the stone” (the Kingdom) does not become a great mountain until after it smites the image, showing that the Kingdom begins in its infancy with only the first fruits, who soon stand on Mount Zion with the Lamb, and who later, after they have garnered in the second fruits of the living, smite the nations; finally there come from the grave the saved of all ages fully to make up the “great mountain”---the Kingdom complete!

In the face of these clear-cut and repeatedly chronicled prophecies, may no one be so foolish as to say, as did the Jews in response to Ezekiel’s prophecies, “The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off” (Ezek. 12:27), thereby bringing upon his head the same dreadful doom."(Answerer, vol. 2, Q-42)

"In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they (SDA church leadership) will see only something, which in their blindness, they think dangerous. Something will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it." (Maranatha, p.219)

Actually I do think Houteff is making predictions that places a lot of things "a way off' -- that's one thing I see happening in a lot of people's efforts to map out the future.

When in reality we are on the very brink of the end of time. Prophecy is fulfilling at an astonishing rate exactly as Adventists have believed for over a century. People scoffed that Adventists were way off the mark, as the world built up their futurist interpretation of prophecy. But now it's happening! And so many don't even see it!
So many are chasing after some futurist style of interpretation they can't even see how things are shaping up for the final crises.

No -- there is no time in the future for God's people to establish some earthly kingdom over in Palestine. The futurists will attempt it but it will result in the end of the world and utter chaos.

No -- there is no time way off in the future in which to proclaim the last message to the world. THE TIME IS NOW.

Indeed, soon Christ will come and all earthly kingdoms will come to an abrupt end. Christ's kingdom is not of this world.
His kingdom is NEW JERUSALEM.

The stone SMITES the image, and the image (representing earthly kingdoms) is blown away like chaff in the wind, and no place is found for it. GONE! No more chance to convert anyone. Everyone who is to be saved must be saved PRIOR to that.


Indeed -- we MUST NOT put off our salvation, or the salvation of anyone way off in the future, thinking there is some way off future date when we will share the gospel with the world.

THE TIME IS NOW!

MOUNT ZION

When the new testament speaks of Mount Zion what is it referring to?

We realize that in the old testament Jerusalem was located on "Mt. Zion" and was where God's people came to worship God.

But this is a type, it's not the REAL end time meaning.

The foundational WRONG premise of futurism is to make the "type" the real thing. They take the types and refuse to acknowledge the reality in prophetic interpretation.

"Zion", from its original meaning as a hill in Jerusalem, goes onward even in the Old Testament to signify the high calling of God for His people.

Mount Zion is revealed in the New Testament as the heavenly center of God’s presence and glory!

In Hebrews 12:22-24 we read:
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

Notice, this is not speaking of the future, but of the Christian experience of faith.
We, as Christians, can come boldly before the throne of God, through the name of Christ.
Christ's followers are citizens of the New Jerusalem, registered as such in heaven.
They are partakers of the New Covenant which Jesus is mediating on our behalf.

To every genuine Christian that comes before God's heavenly throne in worship, this verse says: " you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem".


In the OT the earthly city of Jerusalem called Mount Zion, was where the throne of the king and the worship of God was located; but we can come by faith before God's heavenly throne and worship Him by faith in the heavenly city.

Heb. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
10:20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh
10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,

Revelation 14 is not speaking of the battle scarred mount Zion over in Palestine, it is speaking of the NEW TESTAMENT Mount Zion. Don't go to Palestine to find Christ, Christ through His Holy Spirit is with His faithful where ever they may be geographically.

In Revelation 14:1-3 we read, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.”

This scripture reveals that those who will stand with the Lamb on the heavenly Mount Zion will be singing their worship before the throne, the four living creatures, and the elders. This clearly shows us that the heavenly Mount Zion is at the throne of God Almighty as described in Revelation chapter 4. So just as the earthly Zion was the place of the throne and of worship in ancient times, we find that the true Zion in heaven is at the throne of God and is the real center of worship.

Those who by faith seek the heavenly Zion, will someday literally stand before God's throne in the heavenly Zion.

I find it interesting that he said, "let's go Kland show us what you got", but when I just ask a simple question about whether such a bold statement is disprovable....
...nothing.

I think he paid me a compliment! He was ready to 'go at it', but he quickly realized he was unable to "go".

The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. {1SM 67.8}

Ded-The stone SMITES the image, and the image (representing earthly kingdoms) is blown away like chaff in the wind, and no place is found for it. GONE! No more chance to convert anyone. Everyone who is to be saved must be saved PRIOR to that.

The Daniel 2 study is very deep. soon we hope to visit that here. We can assure those who are interested the "stone" is NOT Christ. Hopefully time will allow it soon.

That is the way Adventists have always interpreted these promises as they pertained to ancient Israel.

History of understanding concerning Daniel 2's stone kingdom.

1. Early Christian writers were fairly united in saying
"the stone cut out without hands"
referred to Christ's incarnation; The Stone was Christ --
And the smiting of the image by the stone was generally understood to apply to the second advent.



2. The Catholic View
In about the third century a gradual shift appears in the understanding --
The stone still being referred to as Christ's incarnation, but now some began to think the "smiting of the image" was the Christian church filling the earth.
The fifth-century theologian Augustine maintained that this stone kingdom was the Roman Catholic Church. Augustine (354-430), in his book "The City of God" emphasized the idea of the kingdom of God as the Catholic church ruling on earth and that even now his saints reign with Him."

Augustine was "bad news" for groups who weren't willing to bow to the emerging authority of the Roman Church. His book was written to exalt the Roman church and he built the theories that led to the medieval religio-political state church.
Thus in the centuries following the whole stone and kingdom was depicted as the Catholic church. After all -- Peter (the stone) was supposedly the forerunner of all the popes with the keys of the kingdom.

This still seems to be pretty much the Catholic understanding -- they see the Catholic church moving ahead to the final triumph when their idea of the "stone kingdom" (ie the Catholic church, led by the Pope) will fill the whole earth. And the pope will sit in what they consider his God appointed place at the head.

An interesting comment from "The Catholic Cabinet, July 1843 an article entitled "Fulfilment of Prophecy -- The Church" p.133






3. The Reformation view
The view that the Catholic Church was the stone and kingdom was rejected by the reformers as the papacy was identified as the antichrist of prophecy. The Historicist method of interpretation was firmly in place outlining the four kingdoms of the image, and identifying the little horn of Daniel 7 as the papacy.
They viewed the stone of Daniel 2, as Christ, but they were divided as to whether it referred to Christ's first coming when He established the "spiritual kingdom" or His second coming in a catastrophic "smashing" . There was no real consensus.
Some looked to the rabbis for ideas -- the Jews of course still waiting for the Messiah to come and set up His kingdom in Jerusalem.


4. POST REFORMATION
The counter Reformation brought in Preterit interpretation --
Preterism holds to the stone referring to Christ establishing the spiritual kingdom at His first coming. The kingdom is the dominion of Christ over earth, which he obtained at his ascension in heaven. His second coming was spiritual (intangible/invisible) in the destruction of Jerusalem. The church is the "new Jerusalem" and becomes the earthly seat of Christ's kingdom and throne.

The counter Reformation also brought in the Futurist interpretation, which originally held that the stone was the spiritual kingdom which would one day fill the earth, this was adapted by Dispensationalists -- which hold to the stone being the Messianic kingdom (millennium reign of Christ) in Palestine (Jerusalem).


This is not an exhaustive study but a generalized overview of the tends in Christian History.

When William Miller came on the scene, the concept of the world getting better, and moving ahead to an earthly utopia type kingdom was very strong within Christian denominations.

Millers view of the second coming as "the end of the world" and meeting Christ in the air, was a radical departure from the general understanding of Daniel Two.

After the great disappointment, many of the Millerites rejected Miller's teachings, and returned to their churches and former beliefs.

Pioneer Seventh-day Adventists, however, could not turn their backs on what they had found to be truth, and went to their Bibles to dig for understanding and wisdom.

They discovered the sanctuary truths and the answer to the 2300 days.
They continued to refute any concept of a utopic type of kingdom on this earth prior to 1000 years in heaven, and continued to look to the second coming of Christ as "the end of the world" when they would be caught up into air to be with Christ in heaven for 1000 years.


Studies of a utopic, present world, type of kingdom, is not "new light" at all, it is the basic belief of Catholicism that has also taken over the protestant churches.

Actually the Protestant Churches didn't shake off the earthly kingdom idea during the reformation. They never grasped that a literal kingdom and religion were never again to be merged in this world of intolerance. Thus we see in history, reformers persecuting other reforming groups, trying to establish "kingdom" like territories where everyone worshipped according to the original reformers beliefs. The Puritans escaped from the English Anglicans who were persecuting them. Yet, once in America the Puritans persecuted the Quakers and other groups believing different. It wasn't until America formed it's constitution that people could actually worship freely.

We are heading for another "kingdom" of intolerance, and it will bring in the time of trouble as never before seen in earth's history.

Ded-That is the way Adventists have always interpreted these promises as they pertained to ancient Israel.

Not true, see below --

"Of special value to God's church on earth today--the keepers of His vineyard--are the messages of counsel and admonition given through the prophets who have made plain His eternal purpose in behalf of mankind. In the teachings of the prophets, His love for the lost race and His plan for their salvation are clearly revealed.

The story of Israel's call, of their successes and failures, of their restoration to divine favor, of their rejection of the Master of the vineyard, and of the carrying out of the plan of the ages by a goodly remnant to whom are to be fulfilled all the covenant promises--this has been the theme of God's messengers to His church throughout the centuries that have passed. And today God's message to His church--to those who are occupying His vineyard as faithful husbandmen--is none other than that spoken through the prophet of old:

"Sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day." Isaiah 27:2, 3.

Let Israel hope in God."

Israel today= SDA church. This is very important to remember because many prophecies that say "Israel" directly mean the SDA church.

"Each of the ancient prophets spoke less for their time than for ours, so that their prophesying is in force for us." (Selected Messages, vol. 3, p.338)

Ded-1. Early Christian writers were fairly united in saying
"the stone cut out without hands"
referred to Christ's incarnation; The Stone was Christ --
And the smiting of the image by the stone was generally understood to apply to the second advent.

This is a perfect example of someone who "makes flesh His strength." These early pioneers were not prophets. One thing is sure they were not one of the Zech. 4 tubes (prophet of God) that were authorized to go into the trees to pull out truth(prophecies) for His people. Consequently we cannot stand upon flesh in this important study as Dedication would like us to do.

FACT: Ellen White never said the stone was Christ. Infact, a brother Mueller wrote to the EGW estate in 1971 asking for verification of this point. Arthur White responded that no writings from her pen can be found supporting this assumed "truth."

Now, why would we continue with a report already shown with a classic error right from the start? This is why I continue to warn people about Dedication and her private ideas. Let's be "Bureans" and not settle for a human idea, let's search out the real Truth. Because Truth=Jesus.

So are you saying the statement by EGW is not true?

You want a temporary kingdom, one that will be destroyed at the second coming, earthly kingdom as the crowning event of our hope?
Do you deny that these covenant promises will be fulfilled in a much grander eternal kingdom?


And if you really believe that the terms Israel and Jerusalem refer to the people of God, then why would we even need to change back to thinking Israel and Jerusalem mean the literal city over there in Palestine?

The people of God are citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem -- a city that is now in heaven where the throne of God and the Lamb is.

Abraham wandered as a stranger on earth, and looked forward to that heavenly city whose builder and maker is God. (See Heb.11)
That heavenly city will one day (after the 1000 years) descend to earth. It is so large it will completely cover the whole of Palestine and then some (not just the few acres of old Jerusalem) The earth will be cleansed of all traces of sin and recreated -- that is the inheritance Christ has purchased for His covenant keeping people.
That is the crowning hope !!
That is where our focus is to be, and the kingdom to which we are to invite all our friends and neighbors.

Not some temporary kingdom over there in war torn Palestine, where a human king is to be the anti typical David and sit on the throne.

I gave the history of the understanding of Daniel 2 through out the Christian era.

The interesting point is how the Catholic Church appropriated the meaning of the stone and the kingdom to itself.

Especially through the writings of Augustine and his book The City of God, the concept of the stone being the church and the kingdom, being the church ruling over the nations.

We need to get back to the seeing the STONE or rock as Christ.

He is the ROCK OF AGES

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

2 Samuael 22:47 The LORD lives; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

Psalm 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.

Psalm 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

Jesus is the FOUNDATION stone

Acts 4:10 by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth,...
4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Matt. 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.



^

And so it will be in the very end --

Ded- She quotes -- It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional. {1SM 67.8}

Then asks --"So are you saying the statement by EGW is not true?"

Of course what she said is true. But we must understand it in context. For instance, we must agree with the above in the context of what was made clear by the following:

The story of Israel's call, of their successes and failures, of their restoration to divine favor, of their rejection of the Master of the vineyard, and of the carrying out of the plan of the ages by a goodly remnant to whom are to be fulfilled all the covenant promises--this has been the theme of God's messengers to His church throughout the centuries that have passed. And today God's message to His church--to those who are occupying His vineyard as faithful husbandmen--is none other than that spoken through the prophet of old:

"Sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day." Isaiah 27:2, 3. (Prophets and Kings, p.22)

And this --

Never has the Lord been without true representatives on this earth who have made His interests their own. These witnesses for God are numbered among the spiritual Israel, and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by Jehovah to His ancient people.

Clear straight words from SOP. "ALL" does not mean "some". And one of the prime covenant promises was the latter day Kingdom in Israel.

But you don't think those covenant promises will be fulfilled in the NEW Jerusalem -- and the New Earth.


Gal. 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Which inheritance do we want? Which covenant?
The old Jerusalem one that leads to bondage OR
The heavenly Jerusalem?

Please note in the quote above (PK 720

1. This is speaking of the second coming.
2. Then the redeemed receive the promised inheritance
3. This restoration of Israel takes place in the earth made new.
4. Thus God's purpose for Israel will meet with LITERAL fulfillment.

Don't miss this point -- the literal fulfilment occurs when the redeemed receive the promised inheritance in the earth made new, after the second coming.

Ded- But you don't think those covenant promises will be fulfilled in the NEW Jerusalem -- and the New Earth.

Absolutely not. For there are tremendous amount of Scripture that backs up this "pre-mil" kingdom. Keep in mind as we learn more about this, this "kingdom " is not a government kingdom as we know it today, it's a "theocracy". In other words the world at this time won't be submitted wholly to this kingdom as Satan will advance his kingdom at the same time. Hence the --"Great Controversy" shall play out before the world. Nevertheless, God , in His mercy shall give the people a most striking example of His power , and then the world shall have no more excuse.

Here are just a few references to back it up.

1) Isaiah 2:2-4
2) Isaiah 11:1-12
3) Isaiah 17:4-8
4) Isaiah 28:14-19
5) Isaiah 30:19-22
6) Isaiah 31:6-9
7) Isaiah 34:8-10

much more from Isaiah. You'll notice that the time when this kingdom in "Zion" is to be established there are -- Gentiles and "old men". The New earth shall not have them.

Further the greater point is that the Lord will establish a final proof before the world that His kingdom is a 'real thing". He made promises to His ancient people and He will keep them. The "Israel of today" is those who keep His Commandments and thus can be found in His SDA church.

There is much more in Jeremiah, Hosea, Joel, Zechariah, etc.

That didn't really make sense.
Either the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional or they are not.
And your "in context" didn't seem to be in context.

Unless you are suggesting truth is conditional....