The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes.

Our God is a God of mercy. With long-sufferance and tender compassion He deals with the transgressors of His law. And yet, in this our day, when men and women have so many opportunities for becoming familiar with the divine law as revealed in Holy Writ, the great Ruler of the universe cannot behold with any satisfaction the wicked cities, where reign violence and crime. The end of God's forbearance with those who persist in disobedience is approaching rapidly. {PK 275.3}

Ought men to be surprised over a sudden and unexpected change in the dealings of the Supreme Ruler with the inhabitants of a fallen world? Ought they to be surprised when punishment follows transgression and increasing crime? Ought they to be surprised that God should bring destruction and death upon those whose ill-gotten gains have been obtained through deception and fraud? Notwithstanding the fact that increasing light regarding God's requirements has been shining on their pathway, many have refused to recognize Jehovah's rulership, and have chosen to remain under the black banner of the originator of all rebellion against the government of heaven. {PK 276.1}

The forbearance of God has been very great--so great that when we consider the continuous insult to His holy commandments, we marvel. The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes. But He will certainly arise to punish the wicked, who so boldly defy the just claims of the Decalogue. {PK 276.2}

God allows men a period of probation; but there is a point beyond which divine patience is exhausted, and the judgments of God are sure to follow. The Lord bears long with men, and with cities, mercifully giving warnings to save them from divine wrath; but a time will come when pleadings for mercy will no longer be heard, and the rebellious element that continues to reject the light of truth will be blotted out, in mercy to themselves and to those who would otherwise be influenced by their example. {PK 276.3}

The time is at hand when there will be sorrow in the world that no human balm can heal. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn. Disasters by sea and by land follow one another in quick succession. How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man; but in them all, God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger. {PK 277.1}

God's messengers in the great cities are not to become discouraged over the wickedness, the injustice, the depravity, which they are called upon to face while endeavoring to proclaim the glad tidings of salvation. The Lord would cheer every such worker with the same message that He gave to the apostle Paul in wicked Corinth: "Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city." Acts 18:9, 10. Let those engaged in soul-saving ministry remember that while there are many who will not heed the counsel of God in His word, the whole world will not turn from light and truth, from the invitations of a patient, forbearing Saviour. In every city, filled though it may be with violence and crime, there are many who with proper teaching may learn to become followers of Jesus. Thousands may thus be reached with saving truth and be led to receive Christ as a personal Saviour. {PK 277.2}

God's message for the inhabitants of earth today is, "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matthew 24:44. The conditions prevailing in society, and especially in the great cities of the nations, proclaim in thunder tones that the hour of God's judgment is come and that the end of all things earthly is at hand. We are standing on the threshold of the crisis of the ages. In quick succession the judgments of God will follow one another--fire, and flood, and earthquake, with war and bloodshed. We are not to be surprised at this time by events both great and decisive; for the angel of mercy cannot remain much longer to shelter the impenitent. {PK 278.1}

"Behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." Isaiah 26:21. The storm of God's wrath is gathering; and those only will stand who respond to the invitations of mercy, as did the inhabitants of Nineveh under the preaching of Jonah, and become sanctified through obedience to the laws of the divine Ruler. The righteous alone shall be hid with Christ in God till the desolation be overpast. Let the language of the soul be:


"Other refuge have I none,
Hangs my helpless soul on Thee;
Leave, O, leave me not alone!
Still support and comfort me.


"Hide me, O my Saviour, hide!
Till the storm of life is past;
Safe into the haven guide,
O receive my soul at last!" {PK 278.2}

What does it mean - "The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes."

Which attributes has God been restraining?

"Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man; but in them all, God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger."

Nature is not self-acting. Therefore, Jesus must wield the forces of nature like weapons in His arsenal to punish and discipline. He cannot simply withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature to act of its own accord.

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. {GC 589.3}

-------------------

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

... Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

Let men beware lest they neglect the lesson conveyed to them in the words of Christ. As He warned His disciples of Jerusalem's destruction, giving them a sign of the approaching ruin, that they might make their escape; so He has warned the world of the day of final destruction and has given them tokens of its approach, that all who will may flee from the wrath to come. {GC 37.2}

---------------------------------

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gradually the Lord withdrew his Spirit. Removing his restraining power, he gave the king into the hands of the worst of all tyrants,--self. {RH, July 27, 1897 par. 6}

APL, which attributes has God been restraining?

Ellen White is describing two very different scenarios: 1) sinners Jesus is working to save, and 2) sinners Jesus has given up to Satan.

Jesus uses the forces of nature to discipline. Satan uses the forces of nature to destroy. Similar agencies employed. Two totally different goals. Two totally different purposes. Two totally different outcomes.

Already nations are angry, already Satan is working with signs and lying wonders, and this will increase until the end. God will use his enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored. These enemies of God are living evidences of the truth of His word; they are fulfilling that which holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. {PC 136.3}

But Satan also employs men as his agents, and we are either workers together with God or with the enemy of our souls. The Devil is the adversary of God and man. {RH, March 6, 1894 par. 8}

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {1SP 84.3}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {3SG 82.3}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

God is at work, and Satan also is at work. {9MR 305.1}

The hope of salvation through Christ led fallen man to be exceedingly faithful in the matter of sacrifices. Satan watched with intense interest every circumstance connected with these sacrificial ceremonies, and soon learned that they typified a future atonement for the human race. This caused him great uneasiness, as it threatened to frustrate his cherished plan of gaining dominion over the whole world and its inhabitants. But, instead of desponding under his discouragements, he redoubled his efforts to accomplish his purpose, and the ages were marked with his hellish triumphs. Indulgence of appetite and passion, war, intoxication, and crime spread over the earth as its inhabitants increased. God destroyed the people with the waters of a great flood, and rained fire and death upon the wicked cities; but the great adversary was still free to pursue his scheme of demoralization. {2SP 86.1}

As men depart further and further from God, Satan is permitted to have power over the children of disobedience. He hurls destruction among men. There is calamity by land and sea. Property and life are destroyed by fire and flood. Satan resolves to charge this upon those who refuse to bow to the idol which he has set up. His agents point to Seventh-day Adventists as the cause of the trouble. "These people stand out in defiance of law," they say. "They desecrate Sunday. Were they compelled to obey the law for Sunday observance, there would be a cessation of these terrible judgments." {Mar 176.1}

We are on the very verge of the time of trouble, and perplexities that are scarcely dreamed of are before us. A power from beneath is leading men to war against Heaven. Human beings have confederated with satanic agencies to make void the law of God. The inhabitants of the world are fast becoming as the inhabitants of the world in Noah's day, who were swept away by the Flood, and as the inhabitants of Sodom, who were consumed by fire from heaven. The powers of Satan are at work to keep minds diverted from eternal realities. The enemy has arranged matters to suit his own purposes. Worldly business, sports, the fashions of the day --these things occupy the minds of men and women. Amusements and unprofitable reading spoil the judgment. In the broad road that leads to eternal ruin there walks a long procession. The world, filled with violence, reveling, and drunkenness, is converting the church. The law of God, the divine standard of righteousness, is declared to be of no effect. {9T 43.2}

The arm of Omnipotence alone can cleanse the earth from the evil which Satan has brought into it. This He will do by destroying the world by fire, even as He destroyed the old world by a flood. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 13}

Satan works under a guise of religion, and guided by him, the professed Christian world will be very zealous in working against the law of God. Satan is leading men and women to complete the ruin he began in heaven. He is willing for the world to declare that the calamity by land and sea and the destruction by flood and fire, are because Sunday is desecrated. Herein lies his deception. He is well pleased when men and women exalt Sunday; for he has been working for centuries to place the first day of the week where the seventh should be. Of those who so zealously carry out the enemy's designs, God will inquire, "Who hath required this at your hand?" "To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." {RH, June 4, 1901 par. 10}

At this late hour shall the work of saving souls be retarded? Shall but little be done, when the curse of sin has grown to such proportions that already the Spirit of God, insulted, rejected, and abused, is being withdrawn from the earth? Just as fast as God's Spirit is taken away, Satan's cruel work will be done upon land and sea. Judgments by fire and flood will increase in fearfulness; for Satan claims his harvest of souls in the destruction. {YI, June 29, 1899 par. 7}

You hear of calamities by land and by sea, and they are constantly increasing. What is the matter? The Spirit of God is taken away from those who have the lives of men in their hands, and Satan is coming in to control them, because they give themselves to his control. Those who profess to be the children of God do not place themselves under the guardianship of the heavenly angels, and as Satan is a destroyer, he works through those men and they make mistakes; and they will get drunk, and because of intemperance, many times bring these terrible calamities upon us. {2SM 51.4}

Four mighty angels are still holding the four winds of the earth. Terrible destruction is forbidden to come in full. The accidents by land and by sea; the loss of life, steadily increasing, by storm, by tempest, by railroad disaster, by conflagration; the terrible floods, the earthquakes, and the winds will be the stirring up of the nations to one deadly combat, while the angels hold the four winds, forbidding the terrible power of Satan to be exercised in its fury until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads. Get ready, get ready, I beseech you, get ready before it shall be forever too late! The ministers of vengeance will pour all the terrible judgments upon a God-forsaken people. The way of obedience is the only path of life. May the Lord help you to see it in time to open your ears, that you may hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. {RH, June 7, 1887 par. 13}

In accidents and calamities by land and by sea, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hail-storms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes,--in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. The visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away, . . . the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." {RH, March 14, 1912 par. 5}

Are you equating "arousing" people to a sense of danger with "punishing" them?

As in, if you are in a building that's on fire, you arouse the people to their danger by punishing them?

The passages posted above spell it out in plain English. Guess work is not necessary.

The idea that Jesus need only cease restraining the forces of nature and they will act of its own accord to destroy, mistakenly assumes the forces of nature are self-acting. They are not!


Thus, if Jesus were to cease acting, the forces of nature would cease acting. Jesus must act for the forces of nature to destroy. Otherwise, they would do nothing. Not even evil angels can wield the forces of nature as weapons of destruction without Jesus doing His part (acting so they can act).

But MM, you are substituting some words for another. Whether you call it "guessing" or just plain wrong, I don't know..



"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

Yes, the above passage spells it out clearly, no need to substitute things. What is she talking about? She's not talking about nature destroying things. She's talking about keeping hearts beating, nature in harmony and synchrony. Why do you substitute something "hideous" for the beauty and harmony spelled out in the passage?

What do you suppose would happen if Jesus ceased acting and caused the forces of nature to cease to act?

The point is - Nature is not self-acting.


Again, nature is not self-acting. Jesus employs the forces of nature like a weapon to punish and discipline. He cannot simply withdraw His protection and allow the forces of nature to act on its own. Things do not work that way.

Nature is governed by God's laws.

Sin is the transgression of God's laws.
When sinful man continually transgresses those laws, he will reap the results.

Take our bodies for an example --
Disregard for the laws of health end up with the body breaking down. This is cumulative -- generations of abuse to the human system has lead to much sickness, degeneracy and problems.

Mankinds' disregard for the laws of nature (massive pollution, soaking the earth with chemicals, cutting down the air filtering trees, taking too much water out of earth's water tables, testing nuclear bombs underground, manipulating the genetics of plants and animals, robbing plants of their ability to reproduce) and a host of other manipulations of God's laws governing nature play a huge role in the calamities facing the world.

God's creation reveals God's power!
There is a lot of inanimate power in nature.
When treated as God designed it, in its finely tuned and marvellous perfection, God's gift of creation was meant to provide for all the needs of life. If nature is abused and it's laws transgressed the power is unleashed in a destructive manner.

This earth is a theater for the universe to reveal what the transgression of God's laws does.
This is true not only of the laws governing morality, but also of God's laws governing nature.

Yes, God does hold things back to allow His message of salvation to do its saving work, and yes, in spite of human manipulations God is still in control. However He will allow sin to fully display it's effect on nature and human beings -- especially as we near the end.

And when it's all over, it will be obvious to all, that God's dealings were just; Satan has no more claim that God's laws are arbitrary and restrictive of human (or angel) advancement and happiness. It has been shown beyond any question or doubt that breaking or manipulating God's laws brings destruction.

When God does execute judgment the exclamation goes forth --
"Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus....Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments." Rev. 16;5,7

A careful reading of Rev. 16, shows God is declared just, because He has turned the sinful deeds back upon the perpetuators of those deeds -- they are reaping what they sowed.


No, I can't go as far as APL on this, as scripture reveals that there were times when God stepped in to execute judgment, and God will execute judgment at Christ's coming, He is in control, but the conditions of destructiveness in our world are due to the transgression of the laws of God that govern nature, (as well as morality) and are the result of human manipulation, disregard and outright defiance of those laws.

Amen! In addition to our abuse of natural resources - forest fires, earthquakes, volcanoes, tornadoes, hurricanes, solar flares, etc. Man-made and natural disasters are disrupting the balance of nature. Nevertheless, nature is not self-acting. It does what it does because Jesus does what He does.

Is the Law of God intrinsic with what He has made or is it extrinsic, more like our legislated laws? Intrinsic laws care their own consequences, such as the laws of nature; gravity, etc. Legislated laws such as speed limit laws do not care inherent consequences if broken, the punishment must be imposed. Are God's judgments imposed penalties? Or are God's judgment a declaration of truth as it is and the resultant consequences are not imposed but the sinner reaps that which he has sown? Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

Sin was allowed because the universe did not understand that the natural consequences of sin was death. If God had let the natural consequences of sin play out with Satan, the universe would have misunderstood and would have served God from fear.

God is not the source of sickness, disease or death. This is the work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer, God is the restorer.

"The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes."

Which attributes?

Actually, the point is she was not talking about nature destroying things. The point is you are misusing what she was saying.

What do you suppose would happen if Jesus ceased acting and caused the forces of nature to cease to act?

Excepting MM says that Jesus causes disease.

When you have great powers of nature which are from God being held back, we can deduct from that...

Hearts would stop beating.
Rivers would stop flowing.
Plants would stop growing.
Gravity would stop pulling.
Diseases would stop acting.
Etc, etc, etc.

Ex 4:6 And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand [was] leprous as snow.

Ex 9:10 It became a boil breaking forth [with] blains upon man, and upon beast.

Ex 12:29 At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt

Num 11:33 The LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

Num 12:10 Behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow

1 Sam 25:38 The LORD smote Nabal, that he died.

1 Kings 13:3 And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.

2 Kings 5:27 And he went out from his presence a leper [as white] as snow.

2 Kings 15:5 The LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper

2 Chron 21:18 The LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease.

Acts 5:5 Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost

Acts 9:18 Immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales

Acts 12:23 The angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms

Rev 16:6 They have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Joshua
10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, [and] were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: [they were] more which died with hailstones than [they] whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

1Ch 10:14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

So by not acting, hearts would stop beating.

Glad you agree.

Here's how the SOP describes it:


"At His own will God summons the forces of nature to overthrow the might of His enemies--"fire, and hail; snow, and vapor; stormy wind fulfilling His word." Psalm 148:8. When the heathen Amorites had set themselves to resist His purposes, God interposed, casting down "great stones from heaven" upon the enemies of Israel."

APL, do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to murder the Amorites with great hailstones? Do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to stay the sun and moon so that the Israelites could finish murdering the Amorites?

. . . nature is self-acting?

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

God is not the executioner.

Satan delights in war, for it excites the worst passions of the soul and then sweeps into eternity its victims steeped in vice and blood. It is his object to incite the nations to war against one another, for he can thus divert the minds of the people from the work of preparation to stand in the day of God. {GC 589.1}

Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. {GC 589.3}


Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {CH 168.2}

APL, you and I both agree Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children. You have made this point abundantly clear.


Do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to murder the Amorites with great hailstones?

And, do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to stay the sun and moon so that the Israelites could finish murdering the Amorites?

What do the SOP quotes I listed above say? Read them.

Okay. I read them. They didn't say what you believe.

1) Do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to murder the Amorites with great hailstones?

2) And, do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to stay the sun and moon so that the Israelites could finish murdering the Amorites?

PS - If I was asked how I think you would answer the two questions above, I would say, "I suspect he would say, Yes, to both questions."

I believe you are talking about total and complete ceasing to act here.

But what about a partial ceasing to act? Such as in the area of disease? If God ceased acting in the area of disease, would you expect everyone to suddenly become healthy or would you expect disease to run rampant? That is, does God cause disease, or does God protect from disease?

The heart of what I'm asking has some connotations and maybe even irony with Pasteur -vs- Bechamp. And even to do with creation. Did God create disease?

Molecules are the building blocks of everything. Nothing exists or works without them. Not one molecule, however, is self-acting. They would simply cease to exist if Jesus ceased to act. They cannot supply the lack if Jesus chose to act partially. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does. When He permits Satan to wield disease as a weapon Jesus must continue to act. Otherwise it would simply cease to exist.

So God is the cause of evil.

The God of nature is perpetually at work. His infinite power works unseen, but manifestations appear in the effects which the work produces. The same God who guides the planets works in the fruit orchard and in the vegetable garden. He never made a thorn, a thistle, or a tare. These are Satan's work, the result of degeneration, introduced by him among the precious things; but it is through God's immediate agency that every bud bursts into blossom. When He was in the world in the form of humanity, Christ said: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." John 5:17. So when the students employ their time and strength in agricultural work, in heaven it is said of them, Ye "are laborers together with God." 1 Corinthians 3:9. {6T 186.2}

Satan can do only what Jesus permits. Jesus is the source of life. Not Satan. Disease does what it does because Jesus does what He does - supplies the life to act.

"The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes." In this context she is referring to the attribute of vengeance.

Said the angel, "Their sins and pride have reached unto heaven. Their portion is prepared. Justice and judgment have slumbered long, but will soon awake. Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, saith the Lord." The fearful threatenings of the third angel are to be realized, and all the wicked are to drink of the wrath of God. An innumerable host of evil angels are spreading over the whole land and crowding the churches. These agents of Satan look upon the religious bodies with exultation, for the cloak of religion covers the greatest crime and iniquity. {EW 274.1}

God will restrain His anger but little longer. . . It is solemn mockery; Satan exults over it and reproaches Jesus and His angels with such inconsistency, saying, with hellish triumph, "Such are Christ's followers!" {EW 275.1}

Said the angel, "It will be more tolerable for the heathen and for papists in the day of the execution of God's judgment than for such men." . . . God's anger will not cease until He has caused this land of light to drink the dregs of the cup of His fury, until He has rewarded unto Babylon double. Reward her even as she rewarded you, double unto her double according to her works; in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double." {EW 275.2}

The forbearance of God has been very great--so great that when we consider the continuous insult to His holy commandments, we marvel. The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes. But He will certainly arise to punish the wicked, who so boldly defy the just claims of the Decalogue. {PK 276.2}

There will soon be a sudden change in God's dealings. The world in its perversity is being visited by casualties,--by floods, storms, fires, earthquakes, famines, wars, and bloodshed. The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power; yet He will not at all acquit the wicked. "The Lord hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet." O that men might understand the patience and longsuffering of God! He is putting under restraint His own attributes. His omnipotent power is under the control of Omnipotence. O that men would understand that God refuses to be wearied out with the world's perversity, and still holds out the hope of forgiveness even to the most undeserving! But His forbearance will not always continue. Who is prepared for the sudden change that will take place in God's dealing with sinful men? Who will be prepared to escape the punishment that will certainly fall upon transgressors? {FE 356.2}

The attributes of God must be made to appear. Of the stability of his government there must be no question. And the Son of God himself proposed to carry forward the work to the end, to gain the victory over the prince of darkness and over all his allies. "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me; for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." {YI, April 15, 1897 par. 13}

Men are prone to abuse the long-suffering of God, and to presume on His forbearance. But there is a point in human iniquity when it is time for God to interfere; and terrible are the issues. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked" (Nahum 1:3). The long-suffering of God is wonderful, because He puts constraint on His own attributes; but punishment is nonetheless certain. Every century of profligacy has treasured up wrath against the day of wrath; and when the time comes, and the iniquity is full, then God will do His strange work. It will be found a terrible thing to have worn out the divine patience; for the wrath of God will fall so signally and strongly that it is presented as being unmixed with mercy; and the very earth will be desolated. It is at the time of the national apostasy, when, acting on the policy of Satan, the rulers of the land will rank themselves on the side of the man of sin--it is then the measure of guilt is full; the national apostasy is the signal for national ruin. {2SM 372.3}

Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2}

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

Yes, we understand that Satan cannot act without God permitting him. Did you really think we thought otherwise.

But the persistent questions are:

Does God cause disease, or does God protect from disease?

Did God create disease?

APL, please note that the title of this thread is - "The Omnipotent One has been exerting a restraining power over His own attributes." I asked - Which attributes is God restraining? Please explain how the quotes you posted above speak to the point?

Okay. I read them. They didn't say what you believe.

1) Do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to murder the Amorites with great hailstones?

2) And, do you believe Jesus permitted Satan to stay the sun and moon so that the Israelites could finish murdering the Amorites?

PS - If I was asked how I think you would answer the two questions above, I would say, "I suspect he would say, Yes, to both questions."

Wrong.

Jesus permits Satan to manipulate the forces of nature. Thorns, thistles, mosquitoes, disease, etc is the result. There are times when Jesus uses disease to punish unpardonable sinners or to discipline savable saints. There are times when He permits evil men and evil angels to use disease to hurt innocent women and children. The passages posted above picture Jesus using disease to punish and discipline.

In response to my questions you quoted the following: "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {CH 168.2} Do you expect me to believe your answer to both questions is yes? I am indebted to ask because the quotes you posted do not explain the great hailstones or the staying of the sun and moon.

Yes, you've said many times that Jesus hurts people with disease. But did Jesus create disease?

Jesus permits Satan to manipulate nature. With His permission Satan tweaked nature to produce disease. Jesus did not create disease. Neither did Satan. Satan cannot create. He can only manipulate what Jesus created within the parameters Jesus permits. Jesus also works to ensure Satan does not exceed His limits. Disease is not self-acting. It does what it does because Jesus does what He does, namely, gives it life and ensures it acts in accordance with divine law. Disease would cease to exist if Jesus ceased to do His part.

Kland, what do you think? Did Jesus use nature in the quotes posted above to punish and/or discipline? Or, do you think God expect us to interpret the passages posted above to mean - Jesus permitted Satan to use nature to punish and/or discipline? "The LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease."

Exodus
15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.

Deuteronomy
7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all [them] that hate thee.

Deuteronomy
28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, [even] great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which [is] not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

So you do say Jesus didn't create disease.

But you say that satan manipulated things to cause disease to happen. Then you say that Jesus used what satan caused to hurt people?

MM, what do you think? Did Jesus slay Saul in the quote posted above to punish and/or discipline? Or, do you think God expect us to interpret the passages posted above to mean - Jesus ceased to protect Saul and permitted him to perish from his own choices?

Correct.


Jesus uses disease to punish and discipline.

Jesus slew King Saul by withdrawing His protection and permitting him to be wounded and to end his own life. Jesus could have intervened and prevented it from happening. But He choose not to. He worked to ensure things played out the way they did. The outcome was not left to fate or chance.

Kland, what do you think? Do the quotes posted above mean:

1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline?

2) Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted self-acting nature to punish and/or discipline?

3) Jesus permitted Satan to use nature to punish and/or discipline?

I'd say we should view those quotes as you view the slaying Saul. Even though the Bible directly says God slew Saul, you say He withdrew His protection and permitted him to be wounded and to end his own life. Same here. We need to view similar places where it looks like Jesus is doing something "hideous", we need to see what really happened, to consider likewise how you say about what really happened with withdrawing protection from Saul.
Do you not see,
2 Kings 15:5 The LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper"
as the same thing as we read about Saul?
1Ch 10:14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.


To say Jesus uses disease, which you say satan causes, to hurt people, to say Jesus kills and causes disease, death, and destruction is indeed a "hideous thing". It's as if you are saying Jesus is reliant upon satan to cause disease to happen and that Jesus and satan teams up together to hurt people. When someone gets disease, you yourself have no way of knowing whether Jesus caused it or satan did. This is absurdity!

And this you say about our Creator, our Redeemer, our Savior. Jesus did not come into the world to hurt people or kill them, but so that they may have eternal life, that the world may be saved through Him.

It is such a terrible, awful, and horrible thing for you to say Jesus causes disease. Have you no shame? You should be trembling before your Maker.

He's our lifegiver, not our destroyer.

Kland, I'm still not sure what you believe. Let's go through each text, one by one. What exactly did Jesus do in each case? I will insert 1, 2, or 3 from the following list that best explains what I believe Jesus did - 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline. 2) Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted self-acting nature to punish and/or discipline. 3) Jesus withdrew His protection permitted Satan to use nature to punish and/or discipline.

Ex 4:6 And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Ex 9:10 It became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Ex 12:29 At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Num 11:33 The LORD smote the people with a very great plague. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Num 12:10 Behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

1 Sam 25:38 The LORD smote Nabal, that he died. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

1 Kings 13:3 And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

2 Kings 5:27 And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

2 Kings 15:5 The LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

2 Chron 21:18 The LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Acts 5:5 Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Acts 9:18 Immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Acts 12:23 The angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Rev 16:6 They have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 1) Jesus used nature to punish and/or discipline.

Same here? You'll need to explain. In the passages posted above no one was shot by an arrow and no one fell on a sword to kill themselves. For example:

And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. Ex 4:6.

No fatal arrow wound. No falling on a sword to commit suicide. What happened in this specific case? What role did Jesus play? What role did Satan play? Another example:

Immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales. Acts 9:18.

Again, no fatal arrow wound. No falling on a sword to commit suicide. What happened in this specific case? What role did Jesus play? What role did Satan play?

PS - You wrote - "I'd say we should view those quotes as you view the slaying Saul." Are you sure? Look a little closer. I doubt you agree with what I said. In particular - "He worked to ensure things played out the way they did."

Why? I'm not afraid of Jesus. He is my friend and Savior. I have nothing to be afraid of.

Afraid? I suppose if one has such a view of Jesus as you do, that word would have came to mind. And such one should be very afraid of angering such a god by painting such a terrible, awful, and horrible picture of him.

But it wasn't a trembling in fear I had in mind. What I had in mind was a nakedness of soul trembling. A trembling in shame, in utter abhorrence of what you have said about our loving Creator and Redeemer who came to give His life so we could be redeemed to Him. He is not our destroyer.

Kland, you didn't address this post:

Kland, you believe my portrayal of God paints "a terrible, awful, and horrible picture of him." And yet you believe Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children.

What makes this view even more difficult to appreciate is the fact you also believe sin pays its wages - it is not Jesus that destroys sinners but sin itself. You believe Jesus protects sinners from suffering the destructive effects of sin when they sin. You believe He need only withdraw His protection and sin will naturally destroy them.

Your belief begs the question - Since sin destroys sinners, why does Jesus use His enemies and the forces of nature to punish and destroy them? Why doesn't He simply allow sin to do it? Also, why does He allow evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children?

So far you have not answered these questions. APL at least suggested Jesus permits such things because He respects the freewill of evildoers. Although, Jesus does not allow evil men and evil angels to run riot without establishing and enforcing specific limitations and restrictions. They are not free to murder innocent women and children without His express permission and within His well-defined restrictions.

Kland, what do you think? When Jesus told Moses to slip his hand in and out of his clothes and it became leprous as snow - who made Moses' arm leprous, Jesus or Satan?


And, from whom and whence came the fire that consumed Nadab and Abihu? Did it come from Satan's presence in the holy of holies?