Human Nature, Neuroscience, and the Soul

Here is an interesting presentation by a non-SDA on the soul:

Human Nature, Neuroscience, and the Soul

The speaker agrees with SDA writers of EGW's time in that Christ's spiritual body is a REAL body. That which is spiritual, is REAL. And the BODY is what is what is raised in the resurrection. It is the redemption of the BODY that is sought. He speaks of the human as a unity, not a body and separate soul. Also from science that out "spirituality" is real and physical. Thoughts and emotions can be triggered by stimuli to the brain. To me, this has interesting implication for what Sin really is! Christ came to do what? Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

To what? "condemn sin in the flesh".

If someone died long ago, e.g. Adam, would it be unreasonable to think that some of the atoms from his body might have been recycled into other people's bodies all these millennia later? Who gets those atoms in the resurrection?

And our bodies are constantly swapping out atoms and molecules. Is the discarded material part of our body? If not, how can you still be you if your body is not composed of the same cells? Perhaps we have a quality that transcends physical elements.

It is the pattern. It is not the exact same elements of matter that is relevant. It is the pattern in which the elements are put together. Where is this pattern written down?

I found it to be a very interesting presentation coming from a non-SDA.

And do you not find it interesting the SDAs now want to have some sort of "quality that transcends physical elements" Like there is a separate soul? Mind boggling really...

As far as physical science knows, that pattern is in the DNA. But if the constituent molecules and atoms of said DNA has been recycled into other people, where is the pattern stored? Do you think that literal DNA from Adam is literally stored somewhere so that God can put him back together when the time coms? Or might there be another system that can store such patterns, one that does not rely on actual DNA to be kept viable for an indefinite period of time?

Do you think that if man had the skill to assemble the necessary atoms correctly, we could create a living being? I don't. I think there is something about the "Breath of Lives" that mere creatures cannot replicate.

But if some think that they can be like the Most High, they won't be the first. What should boggle the mind is that professed Christians still fall for this ancient heresy.

Again - it is not the literal molecules. It is the pattern. God has the pattern. Ellen White has told us, do you not believe her? Are you a Sadducees?

God has the pattern. Does He have a jar with Adam's DNA floating around in it? Or is it possible that God, who created that DNA in the first place, can recreate it without keeping a physical sample in storage? Is it possible that God can store the pattern without resorting to molecular storage, since He didn't have such a storage system when He made it the first time around?

Where is this pattern written down?

Why do you keep asking if there is storage of the literal molecules? Do you believe that God does this?

Remember, your character is being daguerreotyped [photographed] by the great Master Artist in the record books of heaven, as minutely as the face is reproduced upon the polished plate of the artist. What do the books of heaven say in your case? {TSB 62.1}

Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. {Hvn 40.1}

Let's refresh our memories...


You started out by emphasizing that the BODY is what is being redeemed. Then you shifted the emphasis from the body to the PATTERN which will be used to reconstitute the body.

Then you ask, "Where is this pattern written down?" This is in reference to the pattern that will be used to resurrect the saved. This is the pattern that accurately describes the essence of each individual.

Then, your mind was boggled:
The thought that such a pattern can contain more than physical characteristics is incomprehensible to you. It boggles your mind to contemplate that there may be things that transcend physical elements.

So I ask you the question you posed: Where is this pattern written down? If it is limited to physical elements, where is it written down?

"...your character is being daguerreotyped [photographed] by the great Master Artist in the record books of heaven..." Are you expecting physical books of paper? That's a lot of paper. Per person.

"The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved." What physical system does God use to store spirit/character?

You are hell-bent on propagating the idea that everything "real" is physical. So, where is our real spirit/character stored?

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The body is made up of what? Dirt. But it is the pattern in which the dirt if assembled that makes you. Each person has their own unique pattern, and it is not static. Yes, where is the unique pattern written upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty which has been entrusted to man? fill in the blank:_____________________.

The thought that you imply that there is something like a separate soul is incomprehensible to me. Do you believe in a separate soul? I don't Do we live if we do not have a body as most Chrisendom believes? I don't. "We are dust", does that offend you? Does anything live on when the body dies? Nope.
What did you answer above? Or did you not figure out an answer? Where is the unique pattern that each individual has recorded? And in the resurrection, that pattern can easily be reproduced by God, do you disagree?

I have been understanding your questions about say "Adam" as implying where is the pattern stored in death. That is not an issue for God and I do not know how He stores it as it has not been revealed. It is not the same individual particles of matter that is important in the resurrection, it is the PATTERN in which they are assembled that matters. But if you are speaking about living individuals today, then the answer is simple. And guess what, disrupt the pattern and the organism changes or dies.

APL,

If God does not use literal molecules to store our spirit/character, what does He use to store them for the return trip to Himself, and for preserving them? Are figurative molecules used for this? Perhaps the "books" in heaven are not exactly like the books we have here. As you are fond of asking, what is the mechanism for the storage and transportation of spirit/character?

You don't know how God stores it, yet you are dogmatic about how He does not store it. Perhaps it would be wise to be a little more circumspect on topics of which you are admittedly ignorant. Setting yourself up as an authority on things not revealed by God makes you seem arrogant and proud, which I am sure you are not in real life.

If you somehow got this pattern and somehow assembled the particles of matter correctly, do you think you would have something more than an intricately detailed pile of dirt? Would you then have a living being? Or would you need something more than that to actually have life?

I see you have ignored the EGW quotes and the scripture verses quoted. Do you not believe that God preserves our identity? Is there a separate soul?

I don't know how God preserves our identity in death, but He does. Do you disagree with the EGW quotes? But that is in death. In life, I know where the pattern is, you don't? Do you think it is some sort of separate soul?
Like what? A separate soul? Do you believe in a separate soul?
Do you know what the "books" are? God preserves our identity in the resurrection, but it does not depend on the exact sames particles of matter, it is the PATTERN in which they are assembled. God knows the pattern. There is no separate soul. Do you believe in a separate soul?

That is your most factual statement so far. If we all kept that in mind at all times, the discussion would be clearer. Most of your other statements are little more than Red Herrings.


Is a PATTERN a physical construct, made of physical particles? Or is it a concept, a set of information, that is not dependent on a specific type of medium for storage? Could it even be something stored in a spiritual entity such as God?

But you have admitted that you don't know the facts. Whatever your answers might be, they are mere conjectures. I ask these not to glean information from you, but to help the open-minded reader consider the vast array of possibilities that exist beyond the confines of human knowledge. The fact that some eager zealots will not refrain from marginalizing and even persecuting those who do not share their narrow opinions must not deter us from searching for truth.

Do you feel better now asygo? Are YOU done percecuting? Are you even open minded enough to consider possibilities? Are you searching for truth? Are you blind to the possibilities that nature can reveal truths?

We are God's workmanship. Are we just God's imagination? Are we real or just a hologram?

No, I do not claim to know nor have I ever stated that I know how God preserves our identity in death nor how He resurrects the dead and never have. What I do know is that there is no separate soul apart from the body. Do you believe in a separate soul? I see you have no answer. I see the body and its parts and how they work.

Sin is the cause of all sickness, aging, disease and death. It is a solemn truth that it is sin that causes death. And if we see in nature something that causes all these things, then do the math. What is interesting is that the accusers of others of being narrow may be even narrower in their oppinions. But we do not need to share their narrowness in our search for truth.

APL,

The above is uncalled for. Arnold has been very fair and reasonable with you. For example, just a few posts ago he said:



But are you going to abuse his merciful attitude toward you by being unmerciful toward him?

Consider well these things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I've felt the love green.

You're just flailing now, throwing everything you can think of hoping that something will stick. You refuse to address the obvious flaws in your theory.


A few facts from this: It's a mystery. Man's spirit/character returns to God and is preserved. The dead are raised when God gives the breath of life. While the raised will have the same character, their bodies will be different.

Note the last sentence in the quote. Please answer this simple question: Is the PATTERN God uses to restore a man exactly the same as the pattern He preserved at death?

Is everything a mystery? Creation is a mystery. Redemption is an expression of creative power. God's power in the resurrection is a mystery, which is an expression of creative power. But is sin a mystery? Why it should come into existence is a mystery, but are we to be blind on what sin really is? Are we blind as to the nature of sin? Are we blind as to how God deals with sin? Can we know God's character in His dealings with sin? God preserves the character in the resurrection and sin and every defect is removed.

The Holy Flesh Doctrine {2SM}
The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts, but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. ... If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas. ... In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul. ... When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . .

Can the physical body be so drastically changed while perfectly preserving the character? Is the storage medium for character independent of the storage medium for sin?

Please answer this simple question: Is the PATTERN God uses to restore a man exactly the same as the pattern He preserved at death?

So the soul can be perfect independent of the flesh. The soul must not be flesh, then.

No flesh, no soul. It is not independent. Christ developed a perfect character on imperfect hardware, our hardware.

It is by overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil that any student comes into possession of that knowledge that gives him access to the tree of life. We must all learn that we must overcome as Christ overcame in our behalf. All pride is sin, and must be expelled from the soul. Christ came to cut us loose from the originator of sin. He came to give us a mastery over the power of the destroyer, and to save us from the sting of the serpent. Through his imparted righteousness he would place all human beings where they will be on vantage ground. He came to this earth and lived the law of God that man might stand in his God-given manhood, having complete mastery over his natural inclination to self-indulgence and to the selfish ideas and principles which tarnish the soul. The Physician of soul and body, he will give wisdom and complete victory over warring lusts. He will provide every facility, that man may perfect a completeness of character in every respect.--{Ms 161, 1898, p. 1. (Untitled, typed December 10, 1898.)} Released April 28, 1976. {7MR 320.1}

Do you believe that there is an independent soul and exists without the hardware?

Well said.

I understand it may difficult to explain or define much of our surroundings. But, that doesn't mean they don't exist! Finding it hard to comprehensively define a human being doesn't mean they don't exist. God does exist even though we can't define God anymore than what God tells us about Himself.

And this is where science and philosophy lose me. It seems these kinds of discussions create more doubt rather than answer any questions.

I do agree with Daryl though; I did find it interesting that a number of his Biblical statements were correct or much more correct than I would have expected.

If the hardware is imperfect, but the soul is perfect, the soul must not be the hardware, right?

I can write a perfect computer program that runs perfectly on an imperfect computer because the program is not hardware; it is a PATTERN of instructions that can be run on different sets of hardware. And if I chose, I can build perfect hardware and install my perfect program in it and it will run even better than before. Sound vaguely familiar?

Can the physical body be so drastically changed while perfectly preserving the character? Is the storage medium for character independent of the storage medium for sin?

Please answer this simple question: Is the PATTERN God uses to restore a man exactly the same as the pattern He preserved at death?

If I go in with a knife, and remove your frontal lobes of your brain, what happens to your character? Does it change? Is so, why? Is the character independent of the brain, the physical hardware?

Perhaps you do not know of the functions of the brain and this topic is moot to you...

Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. {Hvn 40.1} But in the end, it is a real and physical body. No body, not living being/soul.

God's mind is the storage medium for our character while we're in the grave awaiting the resurrection and our new body.

Really? So anyone whose frontal lobe has been removed cannot be restored by God at the resurrection?

What about someone who was burned at the stake, damaging a lot more than the frontal lobe? Can God restore his character? Huss is going to have problems.

I'll let you take this opportunity to back-pedal. What do you think happens to the character to one whose brain is chopped up with a knife? Does his character disappear? Or is it stored somewhere else other than his brain?

Who said that?

Do you deny that the frontal lobes of the brain have any impact on thought processes? Have you read medical reports on the effects of frontal lobotomy?

Do you believe in a soul that is separate from the Body?

Answer your own question: If someone jams a knife through your brain, what happens to your character?

If your character is wholly dependent on the physical system in which it is stored, how can you expect to be restored after death, when the aforementioned physical system rots?

Bringing up Red Herrings about medical reports and separate souls only shows that either you are trying to draw attention away from the obvious flaw in your theory, or you do not understand the topic enough to see the problem clearly. Either option does not bode well for your self-proclaimed authority on the subject.

Can the physical body be so drastically changed while perfectly preserving the character? Is the storage medium for character independent of the storage medium for sin?

Please answer this simple question: Is the PATTERN God uses to restore a man exactly the same as the pattern He preserved at death?

I am wondering if you even listened to the video in the OP posted by Daryl.

I have. But that still doesn't answer the question: If someone jams a knife through your brain, what happens to your character?

If your character is wholly dependent on the physical system in which it is stored, how can you expect to be restored after death, when the aforementioned physical system rots? Don't you believe that there is a storage system for character other than the frail human brain? Otherwise, characters in rotten brains, such as Adam's, are lost forever.

Can the physical body be so drastically changed while perfectly preserving the character? Is the storage medium for character independent of the storage medium for sin?

Please answer this simple question: Is the PATTERN God uses to restore a man exactly the same as the pattern He preserved at death?

Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. {Hvn 40.1}

The dilemma posed before Paul in 1 Cor. 15 was this: when a man dies, his body decays into dust and is no more ... like an egg that is smashed and broken to pieces ... how then can it be put back together? Jesus Christ addressed this problem before in answer to the question asked by the Sadducees concerning the moral dilemma of the resurrection. He said, "as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living ..." (Mat 22:31-32) "... for all live unto him." (Luke 20:38) In short, "WITH GOD, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE". PERIOD. As it is written, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Heb. 11:3) There is one straight line of truth that links the creation to the resurrection, the two events being demonstrations of the power and glory of the Eternal God and Our Father.

God will put us back together, heal and change us in a moment, in the blink of an eye, on the Last Day. Do you believe this?

Now someone will ask me, what of those moral persons who suffered brain damage and, having their personalities so changed, had become wanton sinners? Or what about the autistic or the mentally ill from birth? Have you not read that in times of ignorance "God winks"? And that "God knows the heart"? Therefore, in the resurrection, they will be as little children who knew neither right nor wrong but will grow up knowing only good; just like the infants who will inherit eternal life.(Rom. 9)

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Again - there is not separate soul apart from the real physical body.

1 Cor. 15:36-38, "You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body."

It is self-evident that there is a part of you that persists beyond death in a deep sleep from which only God can awaken you; that part is YOU. If you wish to call YOU a soul or a spirit, what's in a name? Your body will change on the Last Day, not YOU. You will be given a new body, but you will remain YOU. From the dead YOU will arise with a new body.

2 Cor. 5:4, "For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened — not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." That is, just your body will be changed, as in a moment; but you will remain YOU.

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No body - no life.

Psalms 103:14 Because God knows how we’re made, God remembers we’re just dust.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What survives in death in the memory of God is the pattern of how to recreate us.

God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. . . . As the artist transfers to the canvas the features of the face, so the features of each individual character are transferred to the books of heaven. God has a perfect photograph of every man's character. {ML 291.6} And God can recreate an individual.

Christ declared to His hearers that if there were no resurrection of the dead, the Scriptures which they professed to believe would be of no avail. He said, "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." God counts the things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and beholds the result of His work as though it were now accomplished. The precious dead, from Adam down to the last saint who dies, will hear the voice of the Son of God, and will come forth from the grave to immortal life. God will be their God, and they shall be His people. There will be a close and tender relationship between God and the risen saints. This condition, which is anticipated in His purpose, He beholds as if it were already existing. The dead live unto Him. {DA 606.1}

No body - no life.

False Dichotomy.

Do you believe in a separate soul?

You err, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

God NEVER said He will create another you, exactly in every way, a perfect clone. Even Job cries out saying, "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another." (Job 19:25-26)

And Paul agrees, as you already know. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Your body changes, but not YOU. And that is the promise and word of God. Why then do you preach another gospel, telling people that their clones will live forever, hmmmm?

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Jesus promised he would have communion with His disciples again in the eternal kingdom. How will they recognize each other when sitting at the table?

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return to the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and to dust shall you return.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Psalms 103:14 Because God knows how we’re made, God remembers we’re just dust.

So then, your body changes, but not YOU. Why then do you preach another gospel, telling people that they will die; but that they should be of good cheer, THEIR PERFECT CLONES will live forever instead, hmmmm? Is that comforting to you?

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No. That's why what you're proclaiming is a false dichotomy.

And I think you see the problem. That's why you refuse to plainly answer my simple questions. I just hope that it is also clear to whoever reads this thread.

Is this pattern a PHYSICAL object that resides in another PHYSICAL object called the memory of God?

APL, I would appreciate it if you would answer Arnold's question (see his last post above - #174058).

I’m interested in studying this subject. I hope you don’t mind me budding in. I watch ¾ of the video and read up to page 3 of this discussion.

I believe we have some confusion with what is the soul versus what is the Spirit. I agree with the video presentation which portray the soul/character is in the mind-brain. I think this is in harmony with what the Bible teach.

Let’s go to Gn 2:7 and see what Hebrew words was used to define a soul :

AV Gn 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath[nashamah] of life; and man became a living soul[nephesh].

First notice that the Hebrew word Ruach is not used in this text. Ruach is the word that denotes the Holy Spirit, but it can also mean breath or wind. Genesis 2:7 used nshamah for the breath of life. Strong defines the word as follow : "a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal." It’s root word is nasham which means “properly, to blow away, i.e. destroy.”

In Ecc 12:7 it is the Spirit[ruach] of God that return to Him. It doesn’t mention about what happen to the breath[nshamah]. However, in Job 34:14 it implies that both the Spirit[ruach] and the breath[nshamah] returns to Lord. (AV Jb 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; )

So this is what I’m understanding:
1- Man is made of dust(particles) of the earth (full body & brain)
2- The breath[nshamah] of life is blown in man. The breath here is a vital breath to give life like an animal and not to be confused with the Holy Spirit.
3- Man becomes a “living soul”[nephesh]
Strong defines nephesh , "properly a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)."


I see the following inconsistencies with what scriptures say :
1- We do the error of equating the breath of life in Gn 2:7 as the Spirit [ruach] which is NOT.
2- We mix up the soul(which has our character) with the Spirit thinking that the character returns to God. It is His Spirit that return to Him, the Bible doesn’t say no where that our character returns to Him.

When "something" has LIFE, by definition, it means that it has the potential to reproduce its own kind. These are living things: plants, animals, human beings, GOD. But these things are non-living objects: chair, table, books, rocks, etc. You get the picture. Human beings were made in the image and likeness of God because we were made to resemble Him, to reproduce ourselves at will just like Him, and to conceptualize and realize ideas just like Him. But the material to accomplish those things was "of the earth": our entire being is material. God told Adam, "Dust you are, and to dust you shall return." When you die, all that you are returns to the earth, but the LIFE that you have (the person YOU are), is preserved here.

God illustrated this by making Jesus Christ THE example, of which David spoke.


In other words, when we die, we do NOT go out of existence so that God has to recreate a clone of us. Rather, beyond all human comprehension and science, THE PERSON of our being is put into deep sleep in the womb of the earth as it were until He awakens us and calls us forth, born again, on the Third .... er, sorry, I meant to say ... on the the Last Day. (See Rom. 1:1-4 cf. Hosea 6:1-2)

But SDA preach another gospel saying, "You shall surely die; but be of good cheer, your perfect clone (a creature recreated to be just like you in every way) will live forever instead." They err, not knowing the word or the promise or the prophecy or the power or the glory of God.

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??? James SDAs does not believe this. You should do your homework about their beliefs.

James explain what you understand the Bible describe what the soul is? Is the body the same as the soul? What returns to dust ? and what goes to sleep? Explain what does Ps 16:10 means with our soul goes Sheol? And does the soul differ from our spirit? And what about the Spirit of God when we are born again? Is that different from man's spirit? And what does return to God according to Ecc 12:9? Spirit of man or God's spirit or both?

These are questions that we should seek to be able to answer with scriptures.

Of course they do. Here, from Pastor Doug Batchelor's Amazing Facts website on the state of the dead:


Put plainly, they teach that you go out of existence at death; because you are just body and breath, which when separated, makes you non-existent. In the resurrection then, that which will be, according to them, is merely a remarkably perfect clone of you.

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In a little while I will get back to you about this. In the mean while, you can read Psalm 100.

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Yes I know about we(SDAs) combine body + breath = soul. I now see that this equation is not correct and it is a mis-understanding of Gen 2:7. It is true that any living creature is dependant of the breath of life. Just because that text refers to the breathing man as a "living soul" doesn't prove that equation is correct. There's a reason man is mainly refered to a "soul" because it is the mind(intellect) that is the boss of the body. Like that video showed in the scientific data, it is in the brain-mind that our character is located.

My current understanding is man is body, mind(soul), and spirit. What I see scripture saying is our body(& physcial brain) returns to dust, our soul goes to sheol, and our spirit returns to God.


What you say in quote is not what SDA believe. I think you are adding(extending) to what Doug said quite a bit. Not all SDAs believe like Doug Batchelor. Actually it was the first I ever heard that the soul vanish. I think what I remember hearing from some of my church is they believe that the soul goes back to the ground with the body. I agree with that.

Then you do not agree with the SDA position, which is as I quoted to you. For example, here is the statement by APL further up on this very thread.


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Let's leave what Doug Batchlor believe and what is the official SDA Church stand alone leafing the people on this forum express their position and understanding.

I'm more interested in what the Bible teaches. I'm trying to sort this out for myself as this subject is relatively new to me and I want to know what the Bible teach.

I'm pretty sure all denomination have this understanding wrong in some aspect to another.

Let's tackle what the Bible define as soul. And what does it mean that the soul goes to Sheol?

Since you let on you know the truth about this subject, why don't you enlighten us and answer the questions I ask you in the other post.