What does "666" represent in Prophecy?

No doubt many of us are aware of our SDA historical belief that the number "666" represents the Papacy.

For example, adding up the numbers (Roman numerals) of an alleged title of the Pope, Vicarius Filii Dei, equals 666 (if letters with no value are rendered 0 and the U is rendered V). This would be a basis for that belief.

The Scripture says--
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.." (Matt 7:7)

"We have many lessons to learn and many many to unlearn."(TM, p.30)

I have recently received a booklet called "A Word to the Little Flock" A reprint of the FIRST PUBLICATION of the SDA as jointly prepared in 1847 by its founders James White, Ellen G.White, Joseph Bates, from a sister in the faith who is an active researcher and Bible student who seeks Truth.

Published by Willis Printing Co. 724 19th St. Denver Colorado, published-- 1935

The introduction is from a W.S.Butterbaugh, M.D. who was a prominent physcian and member of the SDA organization back in the early 1900's.

The introduction begins as follows.

"The following twenty-four pages are an exact word-for-word reproduction from a photo-engraved copy of the original 1847 print, which contains certain words, phrases, clauses, sentences,and paragraphs omitted from "Experience and Views" and later from "Early Writings."The primary purpose of the republication of this tract is not so much to call attention to these omissions, as it is to create and to foster in the minds of all sincere Bible students more of a desire to seek after the great truths which were opened up and revealed in part in this the first vision given to Miss Ellen G. Harmon-- a mere school girl but seventeen years of age!...

The omission on page 19 of an entire paragraph on the subject of the "mark" and "number" of the image beast is the very work that impairs correct prophetical interpretation, to the unity of inspiration, undermines faith in its manifestations, provokes to controversy, leading successively to perplexity, confusion, bewilderment, incredulity, disbelief and apostasy, of which viscious progression there are numerous tragic instances in the history of Seventh-day Adventists...

Hence, the moral obligation to republish this tract , which has never heretofore been published by the denomination. It will assist all candid and honest Bible students within the church to arrive at a correct conclusion after further comparative study. The true light on this one question of the mark and number of the IMAGE BEAST was first given on pages 8, 9 and in the expunged paragraph, (p.19) and is nowhere else obtainable in early denominational exposition.

W.S. Butterbaugh, M.D.
1070 Acoma St.
Denver, Colorado
October 15, 1935

The following is very important, as it is the paragraph showing who the "666" represents. This was omitted from page 34 of Early Writings.

"I saw all that "would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands," could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope's , and not God's Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God's Sabbath, and keep the Pope's and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his image."

W.S.Butterbaugh was a medical doctor living in Colorado who joined with Houteff and supported him in the early 1930's and onward -- his forward was simply to vindicate Houteff who based his ideas of 666 on this one passage.

What both he and Houteff do is use this very early publication (Word to Little Flock) that contained articles by James White, Joseph Bates and Ellen White, who were just beginning to understand the truths that were to shape Adventism -- and then they take a statement pitting that against what those very pioneers accepted and believed in the years following the publication.

This "Word to Little Flock" publication was published by Joseph Bates nearly a year before the first of the five Sabbath conferences convened, when the pioneers got together to in prayer and study out Biblical doctrines.

As J.N.Andrews wrote in his book--Three Messages of Revelation" page 109

The articles by EGW in "Word to Little Flock" were EGW's first attempts to put in writing what she had been shown.

However the sentences from page 8 and 9 in "Word to Little Flock" that reads "Michael is to stand up at the time that the last power in chap. 11, comes to his end, and none to help him. This power...is brought to view in Rev. 13:11-18. His number is 666." -- pp. 8, 9. were NOT written by EGW.
They were written by James White and he changed his views on that shortly after.

Also, all the parenthesis found in EGW’s article in that publication (reference texts and the number 666 on page 19) were ADDED by Joseph Bates when he published the tract. He, at the time believed there would be six hundred and sixty six apostate denominations. This belief was held by several in the very early years (1847)

Yet, that view was rejected very early in the pioneer’s lives.

When EGW published her first visions for distribution in her own books she never included the sentence (page 19) that was in her article.

Why do you think she left that sentence and it’s supposed implied idea, out of all her published books when she related the vision?
Could it be that this sentence, especially with the publishers insertion of (666) was confusing and caused people to think things that weren't clearly revealed to her yet? That maybe she didn't quite understand the full meaning of the vision herself at that point in writing, only was shown that the number could already be calculated?


In fact, from James White's writings we realize they DID NOT, in those early years, have a clear understanding as to what the "666" stood for -- if they had a clear "Thus says the Lord" would they have changed their position?

Yet, a few years after “Word to Little Flock” was written, we see a consensus amongst Adventist writers that 666 belongs to the first beast – the papacy.

In Great Controversy EGW tells us the "beast" that has the name with it's number is the Papacy.

I like the Vicarius Filii Dei and the Babylonian Amulet calculations of the number of the name of the man of the beast.

Ded-- W.S.Butterbaugh was a medical doctor living in Colorado who joined with Houteff and supported him in the early 1930's and onward -- his forward was simply to vindicate Houteff who based his ideas of 666 on this one passage.

It's amazing how she claims that Dr. Butterbaugh was acting ONLY to support Victor Houteff. Loving not the Truth but rather VTH. Isn't that great that she has the power to explain men's motives---

Now, let's see if she declares the motives Elder George Holt's testimony in writing in the early days--

"The 'beast' says Elder Geo. Holt, writing in the early days of the message, "having seven heads and ten horns is the one referred to: and I think the image, is the beast having 'two horns like a lamb,' that 'spake as a dragon.' His number is 666." (The Present Truth, vol. 1, no.8, March 1850)

Moreover, explain this--

"The Bible puts the number on the two-horned beast. Note that all the characteristics which pertain to the ten-horned beast are described in verses 1-10, and that all which pertain to the two-horned beast are described in verses 11-18. As the number closes the description of the two-horned beast, it cannot logically be applied to the ten-horned beast." (Sym. Code, vol. 8, no.1-12, p.18)

I already explained (not just on this thread but others as well) that back around 1847 there was the idea that 666 referred to the number of "oppostate" denominations in America, so Holt's 1850 statement simply shows he was one who believed something similar.

However, you won't find Seventh-day Adventists promoting that idea once the Seventh-day Adventist Church began in the early 1860's. Once Adventist doctrines were more fully studied and understood that belief was laid aside as not having validity.

Besides there is no "image beast" in Rev. 13.
So we ask what is meant by the "Image Beast?" It can't refer to the two horned beast, that beast isn't the image but it makes an image to another -the 1st beast. Thus the image (or likeness) is of the 1st beast which is the holder of the title and number. The logical conclusion is to view the expression "Image Beast," as the acceptance of the titles of the 1st beast.


The church, including EGW, were in agreement that the number 666 was the number of the man of sin -- the papal head.



The two horned beast (religious ecumenical apostate protestant Americans gaining political power) will force everyone to worship the beast (papal headship who claimed his authority over God's law was their change of God's covenant law --esp. the Sabbath)

The number is the trade mark of the name of the 1st beast and all who worship him, giving their allegiance to the man of sin, rather than to the Creator God, and help enforce the papal sign of authority will also receive his mark.

I will respond to Dedication's ideas later.

MM- I like the Vicarius Filii Dei and the Babylonian Amulet calculations of the number of the name of the man of the beast.

Before you jump on that false band wagon take a look at this. This name allocation of 666 is vague, widely applied, and even amazingly applied to our prophetess. Divinely showing I believe the fallacy of this thinking.

"Ironically, the name of Seventh-Day Adventistm’s “prophetess,” Ellen Gould White, adds up to 666 when adding up the Roman numerals using the same rules used for Vicarius Filii Dei (letters with no value are rendered 0, U is rendered V=5, in addition, W, which doesn’t exist in the Latin alphabet is rendered a double U, i.e. UU=VV, or V+V=10): E=0, L=50, L=50, E=0, N=0, G=0, O=0 U=V=5, L=50, D=500, W=V+V=5+5=10, H=0, I=1, T=0, E=0…all added up equals 666. That’s right. Ellen G. White’s name adds up to 666.

But, like the Papacy, this interpretation doesn’t fit the context of Revelation. Tons of names can add up to 666, which is why we must not ignore the context or purpose of the book." (Report by Ryan L. link here -- 666 usage )

I am not agreeing with his general belief (SDA is false religion ) just showing the fallacy of one of Satan's tricks.

"There are countless names that numerically compute to 666-it is not restricted to the Pope alone! XIUN, one of the names for the Sun-god in Greek, numerically added to 666.(Higgins, Anacapypsis, Vol. 2, p. 210) The Mythological bird of the Egyptians, Phoenicians, and many of the Indian tribes of North America, was the Phoenix, worshiped as the bright and morning star.

In Egypt it was the representation of the nocturnal symbol of the Sun-god Osiris.

In Greek transliteration, the Phoenix was spelled the FENEX, whose numerical value equaled 666. (Mythology of All Races, Vol. 12, p. 54.) An ancient Greek name for Satan was TEITAN, which equals 666 in its numerical values. Even the original Roman Numerals, IVXLCD, also equaled 666.

Astrologers commonly used 6, 36, and 666 for their divinations. "They invented magic charts. . . Like the roulette wheel, the charts were divided into 36 numbered divisions. There were 6 columns in all directions with the numbers 1 to 36 placed inside the entire chart. Any direction you add the columns, they add to 111.

There are six squares in each column and 6 times 11 equaling 666. If you add all the numbers from 1 to 36 they will also add to 666. . . .the number 666 was the summary number of the sun-god, because it was his sacred number as the Ruler of the Zodiac." (W. J. Sutton, The New Age Movement and the Illuminati 666, pp. 66, 67.) (Report from Mountain Dale DSDA, New York)

There is a big difference between calculating various individual names, which indeed can be widely applied, and calculating the papal assumed title. Those random individuals will simply not fit the many other characteristics attributed to the beast which has already been identified in verses 1–10 of Revelation 13. The number provides confirmatory evidence.

The beast is not just one individual -- it is a system with a successive line in position of "head man", who assumes this blasphemous title.

Not only that, but Revelation points us to inscriptions upon the head --
Rev. 13:1 upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
17:3 beast, full of names of blasphemy
17:5 upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON

What is traditionally worn on the head of the pope?
A three tiered crown.

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

That triple crown was a direct usurpation attempt against Christ's realm and against Christ's call to true worship. of
"Worship Him that made heaven and earth and the fountains of water."

In most of the coronations of successive popes —
the tiara is placed on the candidate’s head with the words:
“Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art Father of princes and kings, Ruler of the world, Vicar of our Savior Jesus Christ.”*

And the title "Vicarius Filii Dei:" was inscribed with jewels in the papal triple crown.
A blasphemous crown claiming monarchy over heaven, earth, and

I was searching for something else on the Internet and came across a Godsloveandlaw moniker defending Houteff. Someone gets around. With the same message.


Regarding 666, one thing I came across, but have not found the Greek or Hebrew support for is: the first 6's are specified as 6 and 6 and the last 6 is as 60 giving 1260. Anyone hear anything like that before?

There appears to be two issues here.

1) What did the SDA know about the two-horned beast and 666, how did they know it and when?

2) What does the Bible say about it as a stand alone study?

I will submit to you the second issue is obviously more important than the first. As we are well aware both Ellen White and Victor Houteff said we are to measure all writings "to the Bible" not the other way around.

However it is important to know the first and to sort it out as best we can. Let's look at the first issue.

1) Dr. Butterbaugh, contrary to Dedication's slander, was a respected physician in his community and was living by his conscience which he actively pursued the Truth apparent to him, just as Elder Holt was doing in 1850. These are by no means just a handful, but rather a sizable following.

2) Elder Holt's view was accepted back then as evidenced by James White authorizing Elder Holt's view in "The Present Truth" (Vol. 1, no. 8, March 1850) Elder White was the sole editor of this publication from 1849 to 1850, which became the "Advent Review" later in 1850. Evidence - The Present Truth publication history

3) Dr. Butterbaugh , as he disclosed, made a original copy of a "photo-engraved" 1847 print "A Word to the little flock".

4) The original words as written in 1847 and compiled by Dr. Butterbaugh in the 1935 reprint are unaltered. An entire paragraph was omitted in "Experience and Views" and "Early Writings" (page 34) . Copy of EW , first compilation of 1882 -- EW -1882

5) We must ask the question -why was this paragraph omitted? Who did it and why?

******************************************************************

Now to address Dedications comments.

Ded- What both he and Houteff do is use this very early publication (Word to Little Flock) that contained articles by James White, Joseph Bates and Ellen White, who were just beginning to understand the truths that were to shape Adventism -- and then they take a statement pitting that against what those very pioneers accepted and believed in the years following the publication.

We've underlined an important mis-step by her. When God gives a vision and that person (prophet as in EGW case) gets it--they write it out. This is what EGW did in paragraph 19. God's does not say "Opps, I gave you a wrong vision, let's try again."

So while we know it was deleted, we must keep in mind her first vision and writing of it was God given. Not a mistake as some want to explain it away.

As far as what J.N Andrews believed, it was his private opinion and we cannot take it as Inspired any more than we can take any other pioneer's writings and ideas as Inspired. Thanks for that quote but it has historical value only. Also remember the quote used was from HIS book(J.N A) and was not approved specifically by EGW (as was James White's writing in co-partnership with EGW)

Ded- However the sentences from page 8 and 9 in "Word to Little Flock" that reads "Michael is to stand up at the time that the last power in chap. 11, comes to his end, and none to help him. This power...is brought to view in Rev. 13:11-18. His number is 666." -- pp. 8, 9. were NOT written by EGW.
They were written by James White and he changed his views on that shortly after.

Of course we know that James White wrote it but he was guided by EGW and obviously she approved it. Unless we are to take the postilion that EGW was left in the dark as to what she reviewed that he wrote. Which, ridiculously, you seem to imply.

Ded- Also, all the parenthesis found in EGW’s article in that publication (reference texts and the number 666 on page 19) were ADDED by Joseph Bates when he published the tract. He, at the time believed there would be six hundred and sixty six apostate denominations. This belief was held by several in the very early years (1847)

I am not interested in what Joesph Bates believed. Also the subject paragraph has no unusual parenthesis that makes it change the clear meaning.

Ded-Yet, that view was rejected very early in the pioneer’s lives.

Again you place man's private opinions as all important. Let's go by WHAT WAS WRITTEN by Inspiration, that's our main goal and course.

Ded- When EGW published her first visions for distribution in her own books she never included the sentence (page 19) that was in her article.

Why do you think she left that sentence and it’s supposed implied idea, out of all her published books when she related the vision?

That is your first good point. I admit it does not seem understandable that she would not include it later. I can only give my ideas. First, we must remember in the first compilation of EW 1882, she did add clarifications on page 85. She does not say anything about the paragraph that is missing.

What i suspect is that by 1882, this part of Revelation was quite studied privately among the brethren and thus when EW was made she deemed it better to let it alone as opposed to showing her original vision and causing wide spread confusion.

However as I said this ALL takes a back seat to the real deal--Scriptures. brother Houteff , as we shall see exposes powerful reasons why the two-horned beast cannot be anything but the USA and the "man" who does the wonders (666) is connected with the USA.

Next part we shall go into the Word and find out what really exists there.

I have not been following this forum lately because of my other studies and writing. The (666) was added to EGW's comments by Jos Bates when he edited the copy that he received as per EGW Estates.

I have continued to study and pray since we last communicated.

You may remember that I tweeted 8 times from Sept 2011 t0 Sept 2012 that Pope Benedict would not be pope in 2013.
You may not know that from 8/21/2011, I tweeted over 50 times
that Iran will attack America's fleet in the Gulf.

The details are in my newest book: America, the Obama Nation.
It is intended to be read sequentially. It will confuse the saints if they try to pick and choose without understanding the foundation.

It is available in print or as an e-book from:

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/DanielsRevelation

It deals with the various meanings of 666 and so much more.

Christian regards,
His child

In discussing our point one, I found this fascinating study on our subject matter. This author (Francis D. Nichol) obviously did his homework. For me this is quite illuminating on several points. But look at the bottom of the report. This sums up what I had thought. Please take the time to carefully read this. I do now agree that the (666) was added based on this evidence. Additonally this report shows evidence that James White and Ellen White may not have been in agreement on this issue(at least at certain times). But this report coupled with the further report we show solid confirmation that Inspiration makes clear who 666 is and who the two-horned beast is.

18. The Image Beast and 666
The Image Beast and 666

Charge: When Mrs. White had a vision in 1847 she believed, and thus wrote, that the image beast of Revelation 13 had a number, and that the number was made up at that time. She thus reflected the current
view of the Seventh-day Adventists, who held that the image beast was apostate Protestantism, and that the “666” represented the total number of sects that constituted Protestantism. When she reprinted this vision in 1851, in Experience and Views, she struck out the passage from her vision that discussed the image beast and his number. This was because she had then abandoned her earlier view —presumably because others had abandoned it.

The vision was first printed April 7, 1847,* and the later deleted passage reads as follows:

“I saw all that ‘would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,’ could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope's, and not God's Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God's Sabbath, and keep the Pope's and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his Image.”

In the charge before us we have the same line of reasoning that is found in the charges on the shut door and suppression: Mrs. White is alleged to have taught certain views because they were currently held, and then to have abandoned them when those about her changed their theology. We have discovered how untenable is this charge and its supporting arguments when applied to the doctrines of the shut-door and the sevenyear theory. Let us examine the charge in its present application.
* See Appendix D, p. 578, for the text of this vision.

The first fact to keep in mind is that there was no such thing as a clearly defined Seventh-day Adventist theology in the years immediately following 1844. Because one of the Sabbath keeping pioneers believed thus and so on a particular scripture or prophecy, does not warrant the conclusion that that was the view
held by all.

Even though these pioneers had increasing fellowship on the broad outlines of such doctrines as the Sabbath, the Second Advent, and the sanctuary, and often spoke highly of the published views of each
other, they did not therefore endorse each others' views on every detail. Each man wrote as he saw fit.

As regards the two beasts of Revelation 13, very vague ideas were held at the outset by most of the pioneers. The second beast is described by James White and certain others as the “Image Beast,” because it enforces the worship of the image to the first beast. He and others also thought for a short time that the number 666 applied to the “Image Beast.”* Protestant Sects and 666

There is also certain evidence that some of the pioneers thought that the 666 was constituted of that many Protestant sects. Early in 1851 Otis Nichols published a prophetic chart for the pioneer Sabbathkeeping ministers to use. Under the pictorial representation of the “Image of Papacy” is found the view that the
Protestant churches number 666.†

In May, 1851, we find J. N. Andrews writing thus:
“An image to the beast then must be another church clothed with civil power and authority to put the saints of God to death. This can be nothing else but the corrupt and fallen Protestant church…. The Protestant church may, if taken as a whole, be considered as a unit; but how near its different sects number six hundred three score and six, may be a matter of interest to determine.”—Review and Herald, May 19,
1851, pp. 84, 85.

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* See A Word to the “Little Flock,” pp. 9, 10; also George Holt in Present Truth, March, 1850, p. 64.
† The chart was 29 inches wide by 44 inches long. In the upper right hand corner is the title: A Pictorial
Illustration of the Visions of Daniel & John and Their Chronology. Published by O. Nichols,
Dorchester, Mass.

Under the heading, “Image of Papacy,” the first paragraph reads: “The two lamb like horns, Republicanism & Protestantism, whose names number 666, become united in action, speak like a Dragon, and controll the civil legislature, and cause it to make the Church the Image of papacy which received a deadly wound and was healed.” (Emphasis his.)

However, a small part of this text matter consists of a correction that was firmly pasted down over the original text. This was done, apparently, soon after the charts were made, because the whole looks very ancient. The original text—which can now be seen on one copy of the chart, because the pasted on portion has largely flaked off—reads thus: “The two lamb like horns, the papist and protestant, whose names number 666, become united in action, speak like a Dragon, and control the civil legislature, and cause it to
make themselves the IMAGE of papacy which received a deadly wound and was healed.” (Emphasis his.)

The difference in text does not appear to change the sense materially, or affect the point in which we are
here interested, the relation of 666 to the total of Protestant churches.

This chart is undoubtedly the one referred to by James White in the Review and Herald, January, 1851, no.4, p. 31. He says there: “The Chart.—It is now ready. We think the brethren will be much pleased with it,and that it will be a great help in defining our present position.”

Even as late as 1860 we find Andrews writing thus on the subject of the two-horned beast: “The image it appears is made up by legalizing the various classes that will acknowledge the blasphemous
claims of the beast, by taking his mark. Every class that will therefore acknowledge the authority of the beast may be legalized and form a part of this image; but when this is accomplished, woe to all dissenters.

It is thus that we understand the number of the beast as six hundred three-score and six. The mark will determine to which class each individual belongs.”—J. N. Andrews, The Three Messages of Revelation
XIV, 6-12. Particularly the Third Angel's Message, and Two-horned Beast (1860 ed.), p. 103.

Conclusions We May Draw

Now let us see what conclusions follow from the evidence revealed in these various quotations. First, we may conclude that in 1851—the crucial date in the charge—and before and after that date, there was held by various Sabbath keeping spokesmen the idea that the number 666 applied to the second beast of Revelation 13, and that the 666 represented that number of churches. We cannot say to what extent the view was held before 1851.

But this much we can say, that there is no evidence to support the idea that the view had suffered any eclipse or abandonment in 1851. The prophetic chart would strongly suggest the contrary.

But the charge against Mrs. White depends for its weight on the claim that she suppressed the passage under discussion because she had abandoned the view by 1851. And of course the implication is that she abandoned the view to avoid the embarrassment of holding to a view that others had abandoned. Mrs. White need not have been embarrassed to publish that passage in Experience and Views in 1851, evenif it taught what it is alleged to have taught.

With that fact established, we need hardly go farther, for we
have removed the primary basis for the charge.

If the deletion cannot be explained on evil, deceptive
grounds, then we are here confronted only with one more of a long list of deletions that we have found may be explained on perfectly honorable grounds.

But let us look a little further into the evidence to discover, if possible, whether there is reason to believe that Mrs. White ever held that the number 666 applied to 666 sects of Protestantism. In 1860 a correspondent who was troubled over the propriety of creating an organization for the legal holding ofchurch property wrote the following question to James White:

166
“If this government is the two-horned beast, can we be recognized and protected by it without becoming one of the number of his name?”
It is clear that the questioner believed that the number 666 belonged to the “image” of “the beast,” and referred to church organizations.

In his reply Elder White pointed out logically that the “number” should be associated with the first beast of Revelation 13 rather than with the two-horned beast, and then continued:
“‘Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast,’ &c. Here is a call for wisdom. Let him that hath understanding come forward, We confess our lack of wisdom, and decline attempting an exposition to the matter. But let them that have wisdom come forward and ‘count the number
of the beast.’

“Fifteen years since some declared the number 666 to be full—that there was that number of legally organized bodies. Since that time there have been almost numberless divisions, and new associations, and still the number is just 666!”—Review and Herald, April 26, 1860, p. 182.

What James White's Statement Reveals

This statement by James White supports the conclusion we have already reached, that there were those, beginning with 1845, who held the view that Mrs. White is alleged to have held up to the year 1851.

But his statement also reveals that he did not share this view. And the very way he expresses himself indicates
that he had thus far not ventured an explanation of the 666. He was not the kind of man to conceal the fact that he had formerly held a wrong view.* No, James White, up to 1860, evidently had not reached any conclusion as to how to understand the 666.

But he goes still further and gently ridicules the view that the
number 666 applies to a list of “organized bodies.”
* Note his recital, years afterward, of his once-held shut-door views, as quoted in chapter 13.

Is it reasonable to believe that he would have used ridicule in describing this view if his wife had believed
it and written in support of it at any time? Evidently when he endorsed the prophetic chart in early 1851,
which included a statement identifying the 666 with the Protestant churches, he must have been giving one
of those general endorsements that did not indicate agreement with every detail.

Good men often do that today when endorsing books—or other good men!We may therefore reasonably conclude that whatever Mrs. White may have intended by her words in the deleted passage, she did not intend to teach that the “666” represented the total of Protestant churches. And with this further conclusion reached, we most surely are warranted in ending our examination of the charge,
for the real basis on which it rests has disappeared.

Two Mistaken Ideas Corrected

There is only one sentence in this mark-of-the-beast paragraph that seems not clear in terms of the interpretation now long held by Seventh-day Adventists; namely: “I saw that the number (666) of the
Image Beast was made up.” Though we may not be sure just what Mrs. White meant by those words, we can, at least, free the sentence from two unwarranted conclusions drawn from the text itself.

1. The claim is that Mrs. White teaches in this particular sentence that the “number” was “made up” at the time she wrote, 1847, because she used the past tense, “was.” But that does not necessarily follow. In fact the context disproves it. In the immediately preceding paragraph she describes what is patently a future event, but she uses the past tense, for which she had Bible
precedent.*

“The wicked thought that we had brought the judgments down on them. They rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed.”

Then comes the paragraph about the number of the beast, with its phrase, “was made up.” This is followed by a paragraph that opens thus, in description of a coming event: “In the time of trouble, we all fled from the cities and villages, but were pursued by the wicked, who entered the houses of the saints with the sword.” The paragraph continues on in the past tense.

Yet it is very clear that she is speaking of a future and not a past event.* “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.” Rev.
21:1. It is evident, that whatever Mrs. White may have meant in this key sentence in dispute, nothing can be made of the fact that, as it comes down to us, it reads in the past tense. Or perhaps we might say that, viewing this sentence in its context, the reasonable conclusion is that Mrs. White is really speaking of the
future and not of the past. Which only further weakens whatever argument has been built on this sentence.

That Parenthetical Number, 666

2. A point has also been made out of the “666” found in parentheses in the sentence. It is assumed that this number is part of the original manuscript written by Mrs. White. The following facts indicate, we believe, that this is an unwarranted assumption:

a. The use of parentheses, as in the case before us, is alien to the style of Mrs. White's writing. An examination of her handwritten manuscripts of the early years reveals that rarely if ever did she insert explanatory matter in parentheses.

b. As explained a little later in this chapter, Joseph Bates was the first publisher of this vision, which he
brought out on a single sheet of paper, called a broadside. In this original printing the “(666)” is found.

When next the vision was published, in A Word to the “Little Flock,” there is not only the parenthetical “(666)” but also parenthetical letters, for example, “(a),” “(b),” etc., which refer the reader to footnotes. Uriah Smith, writing in defense of the visions in 1866, declares that all of these parenthetical letters, and also the “(666),” were not inserted by Mrs. White, but by “the publisher,” and were “no part of the vision
itself.”—

Review and Herald, July 31, 1866, p. 65. Smith wrote this while all the parties concerned—Mrs. White,
James White, and Joseph Bates—were living. Though it is true that Mrs. White rarely commented on
explanations offered concerning her visions, it is hard to believe that if Smith had been in error in this
statement, neither James White nor Joseph Bates would have corrected him.

But when Smith republished the statement in a book in 1868, his words here quoted are unchanged. (See The Visions of Mrs. E. G.
White, pp. 100, 101.)
c. If the parenthetical “(666)” was written by Mrs. White, then James White would have had much clearer
light on this mystic number than he gives evidence of having.

As late as 1860 he confessed to great
ignorance on this matter, and stated that in contrast there were some who, “fifteen years” before, had
“declared the number 666 to be full.” He evidently disagreed with their idea that the number 666 was
“full,” as well as with the explanation offered as to the manner in which it was full.

But if Mrs. White had written that parenthetical “(666)” in her vision, would he have commented quite as he did in 1860?
The foregoing would seem to make wholly implausible the assumption that Mrs. White wrote the “(666)” that appears in the printed form of the vision.

The reasonable conclusion is that Joseph Bates inserted it to
clarify the passage in terms of his own interpretation of her words. This is a practice often followed by
good men when they deal with difficult or obscure texts in the Bible.

There was no special reason why
James White, when republishing the vision a month later, should remove the “(666).” He confessed he did not know; why not permit his loyal colaborer, Bates, to offer his parenthetical comment!
Large Chance of Copyists' Errors

168
When we think of the way in which the early writing and printing of our Seventh-day Adventist pioneers
was done we marvel at the degree of mechanical accuracy and the literary quality of their writings.

In the particular instance before us, there was a writing, a rewriting, and possible further writing of the vision.
Mrs. White first wrote out the vision. Then James White evidently copied it and sent the copy to Elder
Bates by mail.

We have neither of these copies. Bates much valued the visions, and it is quite possible that
he did not send to the printer the copy James White sent him, but rather made another copy and sent that
out to the typesetter. Then the printer provided Bates with the broadsides ordered.

We have copies of that broadside, which is the first printing of the vision. James White presumably used one of these broadsides as
copy for the printer when he prepared A Word to the “Little Flock,” which is the second printing of this
vision.*

If copyists' or printers' errors crept into the text of this vision as it appeared in print, it would not be strange.
That is the only conclusion to which a person acquainted with the printing business could come.

Even with the most careful system for checking and double checking in modern, efficient publishing houses, the
strangest kinds of errors constantly creep onto the printed page, sometimes to the great embarrassment of
the printer, the writer, and those written about. Copyists' errors have even crept into Bible manuscripts.†
James White states that he was responsible for one error that appeared in the vision as printed in Bates's
broadside. He explains that this resulted from his “hastily copying the vision to send to brother Bates.” (See
A Word to the “Little Flock,” p. 22.)

This error was very conspicuous because of the common knowledge
of the Biblical account of the location of the sanctuary furniture. However, it does not necessarily follow
that he went through the entire document checking it word by word with the original, and that because he
caught one error he would be sure to catch all others. The fact that modern editors and proofreaders catch
most errors does not warrant us in believing that they catch all the errors!
* There are two reasons for thus concluding:

1. It would be much easier to give the printer a copy of a
printed broadside than to go through the laborious process of copying out the vision by hand, to say
nothing of the fact that such printed copy would be much more acceptable to the printer.

2. The whole content of the broadside was reprinted by White, with the “Remarks” by Bates as well as the vision by
Mrs. White. This would raise the strong presumption that he sent the Broadside as copy to the printer.
† However such errors have generally been minor and have not prevented us from learning the way of
salvation clearly.

As one authoritative writer has well said:
“No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading. Constant references to mistakes and divergences of reading, such as the plan of this book necessitates, might give rise to the
doubt whether the substances, as well as the language, of the Bible is not open to question.

It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain…. The Christian can take the whole Bible in his hand and say without fear or hestitation that he holds in it the true Word of God, handed down without essential loss from generation to generation throughout the centuries.”—Sir
Frederic Kenyon, Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, p. 23.

We believe that it is altogether reasonable to conclude that some copyist's or printer's error explains whatever obscurity the sentence holds. It may be contended that Mrs. White should have noted any such error.

But the facts are that Mrs. White was, throughout those years, often gravely ill. If the Lord did not see fit to protect the text of Holy Writ from minor copyists' errors, who shall boldly say just what the great God of heaven should have done in behalf of Mrs. White and her writings? The vision containing this disputed passage was next published four years later in the Review and Herald Extra, July 21, 1851.

It was in this printing of the vision that the deletion was made—right at the time when the prophetic interpretation that it was alleged to endorse had probably its greatest vogue! Note again the expositions of the image beast as set forth by Otis Nichols on his chart and by Elder Andrews in the Review, both early in 1851. Whatever may have been Mrs. White's reason for deleting the passage in question it certainly was not to conceal a view generally abandoned.
169

We think that the unprejudiced reader will conclude that this mark-of-the-beast paragraph was dropped out,
not with evil intent to conceal, but simply to save space or to avoid repetition or perhaps to avoid ambiguity
until a more comprehensive statement might be made.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Francis D. Nichol's explanation is what we've believed all along.

--Adventists in the first 15 or so years were not unanimous on their understanding, and there was considerable uncertainty concerning the 666, thus it is obvious the WLF statement by EGW was not as definite in its meaning as many try to imply.

--We know there was the belief amongst many pioneers in the years from 1847 - 1861 in "relation of 666" that they thought 666 added up to all the legally incorporated churches in the USA, and that the number was at that time "full".
Pages 8 and 9 in WLF written by James White, implied that idea.

--As to EGW's statement the (666) was added to her message by the publisher, it was not part of her original writing.

--When EGW left out that whole sentence concerning the 666 when her first books were published, many of the other pioneers still were holding on to the idea that the total of Protestant churches registered with the state in America = 666.
So EGW did not delete it because others had changed their understanding. "We may therefore reasonably conclude that whatever Mrs. White may have intended by her words in the deleted passage, she did not intend to teach that the “666” represented the total of Protestant churches".

-- In 1861, when the movement to establish the Seventh-day Adventist Church was underway, James White openly renounced position that 666 represented the number registered churches in the USA , saying,



In 1860-61 this whole issue came to quite a head -- as many loudly protested the Sabbath keeping group being legally established as a church for they considered any protestant church registered with the state was part of the 666.

One opponent to organization, Cottrell, warned that the consequence of getting "incorporated as a religious body according to law" would imply a "name with the two-horned beast". To this James White replied that the number 666 referred to "the papal beast," not to the two-horned beast.

The two horned beast (America) is not the 666, for America brought freedom of religion -- her Protestantism and republicanism have been a blessing to humanity, not a curse.

But Rome has long worked to "conquer" America, to take the protest out of Protestantism, defeat republicanism and replace it with authoritarianism, and as America starts serving the papacy, refuting her constitution and implementing the methods of the papacy, America will be enforcing the papal mark and identity. The MARK is the mark of authority the papacy claims over and above God's law -- namely the change of the Sabbath.
Sunday is the mark of the papacy.

The image of the beast, is not a likeness of what America has stood for (the land that has offered freedom), it is a likeness or image of the papacy (forced religion, tyrannical control, persecution) that will be/is being erected in America and the world.

Rome stoops to conquer -- little by little.

" Marvelous in her shrewdness and cunning is the Romish Church. She can read what is to be. She bides her time..."

Thank you for your thoughts. In first review I think you are missing some key points from Mr. Nichol's report. But please pay careful attention to the upcoming Bible study report on this subject. Answer the questions posed.

This subject needs careful study and we should investigate from the Bible first. No wonder Inspiration intimated that if we studied Daniel and Revelation more closely, we “..may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the Papacy.”(Evangelism, p.577)

Will post more later.

GLL, I have to agree with you that this statement attributes 666 to the image beast. I don't know of any SOP statement that contradicts it. That's not to say that the pioneer view of this as applying to the Protestant churches that were chartered by the government fulfills it. I don't agree with that. We do have more to learn IMO. The fact that the Roman numerals IVLCD add up to 666 is probably significant. This image beast is, in fact, an image of the fourth beast - Pagan and Papal Rome.

According to Strong's Concordance the original Greek that's translated 666 is based on three Greek letters, the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter between the fifth and sixth letters, which would make it the sixth before it became obsolete. So, according to Strong's the 22nd letter stands for 600, the 14th for 60 and the obsolete 6th letter for six. I'm open to any other research on this but if Strong's is correct, and translation scholars seem to be quite unanimously agreed, the accepted translation is correct.

Just ran across this...
I find it interesting, that in the Roman system of numbers all up all of the to 500

I = 1
V = 5
X = 10
L = 50
C = 100
D = 500

Total 666

Just passing through..

By the way, the sixth, obsolete letter, G4742 in Strong's, is the cross! Whether it is in the shape of an x or a t I don't know. But it is used only one other time in scripture in this passage:
In this text the word "marks" is the obsolete Greek cross letter, G4742, so the passage could read, ". . . for I bear in my body the cross of the Lord Jesus." Perhaps this is confirming the persecuting nature of the image beast. As in the death of Christ the instrument of death was a Roman cross.

I couldn't agree more brother Mark. The idea that the (666) was added, so that it throws off the clear meaning from Inspiration is grasping at straws. I believe IF Joesph Bates or someone else added that (which looks probable) their intention was one of clarification , to support what it obviously says.

As we know there are generally two camps in this debate. Those who see the omission of this reference as evidence that EGW changed her opinion in regards to 666 meaning, thus agreeing purposely to omit it from further publications.

Two, those who see it as F.D. Nichols did. In concluding his lengthy report on this omission this SDA historian/editor says--

"Whatever may have been Mrs. White's reason for deleting the passage in question it certainly was not to conceal a view generally abandoned. We think that the unprejudiced reader will conclude that this mark-of-the-beast paragraph was dropped out, not with evil intent to conceal, but simply to save space or to avoid repetition or perhaps to avoid ambiguity until a more comprehensive statement might be made."

I find those bold highlighted statements right on.

So we are left with a positive admission that after review of her further writings we see her original view stands. Our next report will deal more with Scripture, so we'll look at the first and most important Witness by which we are to measure all things.

I'll be interested in seeing your material. While you were posting you might have missed my follow up posts. Did you notice my reply to Kland and the material on the Roman connection to 666 by Stan and myself?

Mark --
first of all the (666) in parenthesis was not put there by EGW, it was not part of her actual writing.

Secondly, she never repeated that statement when she had the same vision printed in her own books.

Thirdly, there is no "image beast" in Revelation 13. There is seven headed beast, a two horned beast, and an image to the beast, which the two horned beast forces upon the world causing all the world to worship the first beast. “saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.”.

This image beast is, in fact, an image of the first beast - Papal Rome.

That statement is true -- because when EGW OMITTED the sentence in her own published writings in 1851 those who believed it was the two horned beast and 666 churches HAD NOT ABANDONED that position.

They were still teaching it for 10 more years -- abandoning it around 1861

Yes Henry you correctly assessed Benedict's short reign, repeatedly. I recall many naysayers. Quite startling that he was succeeded by a Jesuit, and one from Buenos Aires, of all spots on the globe!
But what do you mean of the Gulf attack? Iran is one of the most pacifist of developed countries, America the most bellicose - and often creating pretext for military response, as in the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident to launch the Vietnam war, or the "45-minute-weapons-of-mass-destruction" to pre-emptively start the Iraq war in 2003. (Or the faked Kuwait incubator-babies testimony to spur the 1990 Gulf War.) There is a MUCH higher probability that American forces would provoke Iran with a covert attack, because this is their track record.(i.e. U.S. fires first shot)

If and when, it will be catastrophic. There must be thousands of U.S. sailors on ships & carriers in the Gulf. This seems a needless irritant and increases risks of confrontation. Iran is a powerhouse quite different from Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya.
____________________________

Ded- --When EGW left out that whole sentence concerning the 666 when her first books were published, many of the other pioneers still were holding on to the idea that the total of Protestant churches registered with the state in America = 666.
So EGW did not delete it because others had changed their understanding. "We may therefore reasonably conclude that whatever Mrs. White may have intended by her words in the deleted passage, she did not intend to teach that the “666” represented the total of Protestant churches".

Yes, this certainly was not Biblical and rightly abandoned.

Originally Posted By: James White 1861-

"Some have made a grand mistake in defining "the number of his name." They suppose this refers to the two-horned beast, and that his number is "six hundred three-score and six," the number of existing organizations, and in order to get the victory over the number of his name, it is supposed to be necessary to reject all sectarian names. This may not be your position. But whether it is, or is not, we wish here to show that the "number of his name" is the number of the name of the Papal beast. The "beast" and "his image" are mentioned five times or more in the Revelation, without the explanation in connection showing what beast, or what image, as if elsewhere fully explained. The definite specifications are given in Chap.xiii. The "beast" represents the Papacy, the "image" is the image of Papacy, the "mark" is the mark of the Papal beast, and the "number of the beast" is the number of the Papal beast." {July 16, 1861 ARSH 52.22}

After studying our upcoming Scripture report I would say the underlined statement is not true, written by James White.

Ded- Besides there is no "image beast" in Rev. 13.
So we ask what is meant by the "Image Beast?" It can't refer to the two horned beast, that beast isn't the image but it makes an image to another -the 1st beast. Thus the image (or likeness) is of the 1st beast which is the holder of the title and number. The logical conclusion is to view the expression "Image Beast," as the acceptance of the titles of the 1st beast.

True there is no Image beast , however the pioneers knew which Beast they were describing (Two-horned Beast). We'll get more into this in the report.

Ded- The church, including EGW, were in agreement that the number 666 was the number of the man of sin -- the papal head.

Quote:
"The beast with two horns “causeth [commands] all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” [Revelation 13:16, 17] The third angel's warning is, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.”

“The beast” mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by the two-horned beast, is the first, or leopard-like beast of Revelation 13,—the papacy. The “image to the beast” represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas. GC88 445


The underline you put, is another issue (leopard-like beast) but we'll deal with that also. Remember, we must not conclude that EGW had ALL the light, and that God limited her light in certain areas. She is partly correct here as we shall see. Not wrong, just partly correct. Incomplete in other words.


"We have many lessons to learn, and many many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be dis-appointed." (TM, p.300)

I believe these Inspired words do not exclude our beloved prophetess.

Ded-The number is the trade mark of the name of the 1st beast and all who worship him, giving their allegiance to the man of sin, rather than to the Creator God, and help enforce the papal sign of authority will also receive his mark.

I believe your view here is not Biblical as we'll see.

HisChild- I have continued to study and pray since we last communicated

Good, then review our upcoming report and give us your input.

In regards to your post 172896 -Dedication. I have no disagreement that the pioneers were in confusion and that James White had certain beliefs that he wrote out. However the Scriptures must reveal upon close study the plain truth and if it can be shown that JW's view does not hold up we must abandoned it.

Ded-
The two horned beast (America) is not the 666, for America brought freedom of religion -- her Protestantism and republicanism have been a blessing to humanity, not a curse.

We are not saying that 666 is America. For It says it is a "man".

as far as the GC p.580 quote, yes "homage" will be paid but she shall receive that in acknowledgment of her changing the Sabbath day. Notice carefully that Rome is 'aiming" to re-establish her power. She does not get it though, as we mistakenly believe.

Mark- According to Strong's Concordance the original Greek that's translated 666 is based on three Greek letters, the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter between the fifth and sixth letters, which would make it the sixth before it became obsolete. So, according to Strong's the 22nd letter stands for 600, the 14th for 60 and the obsolete 6th letter for six. I'm open to any other research on this but if Strong's is correct, and translation scholars seem to be quite unanimously agreed, the accepted translation is correct.

Yes, I would agree. The 666 in Rev.13:18 looks like the real deal.

Mark- GLL, I have to agree with you that this statement attributes 666 to the image beast.

I am glad you are wearing your "truth detector" glasses. You see what many others see and we'll go over that more. But as Dedication rightly mentioned there is no "Image beast" , you meant to say connected with the Two-horned Beast I think.

Quote:
Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Mark- In this text the word "marks" is the obsolete Greek cross letter, G4742, so the passage could read, ". . . for I bear in my body the cross of the Lord Jesus." Perhaps this is confirming the persecuting nature of the image beast. As in the death of Christ the instrument of death was a Roman cross.

Interesting. sure possible.

In light of your observations, I find it disturbing to think you are describing America during her Lamblike beast phase. I cannot imagine what things will be like when she forms an image to the beast and speaks like a dragon enforcing the mark of the beast. There is no indication she is going to do it any time soon. But she will do it soon enough. Here's how it is described in the SOP:

The scriptures warns everyone not to receive the mark or number -- this strongly suggests that all who worship the beast, giving their allegiance to the man of sin rather than to the Creator and help enforce the papal Sunday sign of authority will also receive his mark.

Rev. 14:9 If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,



Interesting that EGW refers to "the wide diversity of belief" issue.

Papal Rome has long pointed to that vast diversity among protestant churches as evidence of the need for the Roman Catholic authority to bring some unity to Christendom.

Now, we see a lot of these denominational churches having "discussions" to find points of unity amongst themselves. Who is behind all these discussions?



That's just one example.
Many more have taken place in the last few years.

We can't forget a very recent one -- Tony Palmer and his video with a speech by Pope Francis at an Evangelical rally in America. here Stating that the Protest of Protestantism is dead, and calling for Christian unity.

And remember, this ecumenical unity is conditional on accepting the papal primacy.

Pope Francis will address a joint session of Congress on Sept. 24, 2015, the first time the head of the Roman Catholic Church will address the ruling house of the United States.


CONCLUSION:
The image of the beast is the protestant world (still holding their denominational names) joined in unity under the primacy of the papacy using the state to enforce the ecumenical papal led religion.

Dedication, if the image has a life of it's own and can speak and legislate oppressive laws, it is a beast in the truest sense isn't it?



I'll concede that the "his" underlined above can refer back to either the first beast or the image of it or both. Ellen White's statement, in fairness, favors the number being applied to the image beast. James White and JN Andrews and Smith all favor the beast itself. Both may be right. After all, the one is the image of the other. We may have to allow time to be the interpreter because the sealed book is still at least partly sealed. I wouldn't spend too much time on this.

It took me awhile to try to understand what the complaint of the (666) was. As I now understand it, some are questioning that the image beast does not have 666 but the beast it is an image to has 666. Now if something is an image, it should look the same. So why cannot both have the number 666? It is an image of it.

But seems to me on another thread in the past, there was question as to whether there is three: the beast, the two horned beast, and the image of the beast.

But as far as 666 goes, it seems silly to me to try to add up letters of someone's name or title to make it come out right. Other churches have a heyday with Adventists for doing that. Does not scripture give enough details and characteristics of the beasts that no one needs a calculator? Really, if the name doesn't add out correctly, does no one recognize the beast for what it is?!

I believe that could be a reason why Ellen White never used / corrected / or what ever is being claimed. It's not important to the issue. There is enough to determine who and what is being talked about without pulling out your calculators.

Praise the Lord, am ready to disclose the report. We shall look at three major points.(Part 1 of 3)

1) What is SOP position on the THB and 666?
2) What does the Bible say about THB?
2) What does Bible say about 666?

On our first point, we will be looking at the different SOP references on the subject. We will be looking at whether SOP shows a clear position of the THB and 666.

First, as was shown, this is a "the wide diversity of belief" issue. This subject has many diverse views from the pioneers, but the bottom-line is that God through INSPIRATION (SOP in this case) is our guide on point one.

In other words, what James White, Uriah Smith,FD Nichol, JN Andrews, etc show, is in the final analysis, an informed opinion, yet a private opinion. we know God speaks ONLY through His prophets concerning prophecy (things to come) (See Zech. 4 prophetic lesson)

These are some of the references showing the importance of the Papacy in the final days.

The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902).

Comment- This is definitely pointing to a "papal power". However, what is that power? Is it to be a government power, or a Sunday keeping power? In other words, does the Papacy have power due to it doctrinal change of the Sabbath? Let's look further at more references to weigh the evidence.

The beast with two horns “causeth [commands] all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” [Revelation 13:16, 17] The third angel's warning is, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.”

“The beast” mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by the two-horned beast, is the first, or leopard-like beast of Revelation 13,—the papacy. The “image to the beast” represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas. GC88 445

Comment- This is almost universally accepted by us as true SDA doctrine- "The “image to the beast” represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas."

The third angel's warning is, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.” “The beast” mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by the two-horned beast, is the first, or leopard-like beast of Revelation 13,—the papacy. The “image to the beast” represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas. GC88 445


Comment- Who is this "beast" mentioned here? Is it a man (pope), Papal government, or a system? In other words , could the beast be a system of worship (Sunday worship)? Do the people pay homage to the Pope or the Sunday worship? We shall disclose more on the LLB.

Those conclude our ref's showing some support for the Papacy in regards to the LLB. Now let's look at other references in this regard.
***********************************************

"I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother (Papacy) was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She (the Papacy) has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother (Papacy) had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power the daughters had been growing and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother." (E.G. White, Spalding-Meagan Collection, "Copy of Three Visitors.)


Comment- Here we see that Protestantism is the "growing" power in the last days, instead of "mother" (Rome).

“We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the papacy; but we should call attention to what the prophets and apostles have written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God.” (TM, p.112)

Comment- Obviously SOP directs us to know that the Roman power may not be what we think in these last days.

“All who will not bow to the decree of the national councils and obey the national laws to exalt the Sabbath instituted by the man of sin, to the disregard to god’s holy day, will feel, not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the Image of the Beast.” (Selected Messages, Book Two, p. 380)

Comment- The Papacy shall be only one of the powers. The Protestant nations shall wield their power as well.

And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon’s voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. (ST 11-1-1899)

Summary-- As we can see there is a divergence of statements. Yet is it really a divergence? If one looks at it completely, we can see that there appears to be a consensus here. The SOP position shows that while the Roman power will exist in these last days, it really is it's production--the Sunday worship that constitutes the "beast".

There is evidence that the Pope and his country will not lead out in the real government power BUT it will be the driving power, in that it has instituted Sunday and her daughters (Protestant nations) have taken the baton from Rome and exercises their power. The LLB will be addressed more fully in the other reports.

Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God.(CWE, p.35)

Continuing our report we will look at the Two-Horned Beast of Rev. 13.

First let's look at the Leopard-like Beast in order to clear up some points.

"The papacy is represented by symbols on two different beasts. First, on the "non-descript" of Daniel 7, by the "little horn having eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things;"

second, on the "leopard-like" of Revelation 13, by the head that was "wounded to death."

These beasts are universal, representing the entire world in their time, both civil and religious. Therefore, it could not be said of either beast, "it is... a man." The papacy being only a part of both beasts (horn-head on one, and simply a wounded head on the other) cannot be called "the beast." (SRod, vol. 2, p.151)

Important Fact- The prior two places in Revelation that speaks of the LLB , it always mentions the wound with Beast (Verse 3 and 11).Yet after identifying the THB in Rev.13:11, the Word never more mentions the wound in connection with the "Beast". Logically therefore the verses from 11 to 18 do not describe the LLB.

Let us now look more at the THB.

As we all are aware, context is very important in understanding the true meaning of references. Our first position will look at context.

"The Bible puts the number on the two-horned beast. Note that all the characteristics which pertain to the ten-horned beast are described in verses 1-10, and that all which pertain to the two-horned beast are described in verses 11-18. As the number closes the description of the two-horned beast, it cannot logically be applied to the ten-horned beast." (Sym. Code, vol. 8, no.1-12, p.18)


There is no escaping the fact that when one reads verses 11 to 18, the "Beast" mentioned is not describing the LLB of verses 13:1-10.

"The two crown less horns show two non-royalist rulers, while their lamb-like appearance forecasts youthful innocency--Christian-established upon the principles of peace and liberty. And his having the power to dictate who should buy and who should not, shows that he represents a nation that leads in controlling the world's wealth and industry.

Having only two horns, not ten, the beast therefore depicts a local, not universal government. Nevertheless, he will influence all Christendom to "make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and did live." That is, he will engineer a worldwide government setup, rethroning the principles of the church-state rule of Ecclesiastical Rome; a system now characterized by Catholicism, apostate Protestantism, and Capitalism.

In other words, the world will copy the leopard-like beast (verse 12). Put still another way, it means America will urge the world to re-establish a apostate religious-political system after the Western society, with principles imaging those of the Dark Ages (verse 12).

Note it did not say that the Two-horned beast urged the world to worship the "head"-the Papacy, but the "beast"--the system-Catholicism, apostate Protestantism, and Capitalism, topped of with Spiritualism!" (Mt. Dale DSDA report)

The power that is represented by this two-horn beast will identify itself with "the false prophet," for together they are "cast alive into a lake of fire." Rev. 19:20. From this it is plain to see that the wonders which the beast does in the sight of men, and by which he deceives them "that dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:13, 14), are wrought by the false prophet (Rev. 19:20) "in the sight of the beast." Rev. 13:14.

Clearly, then, the beast's civil authority, combined with the prophet's supernatural power, points to a union of beast and prophet -- an affiliation of state and of church representatives.

Having only two horns, not ten, the beast therefore depicts a local, not a universal, government. Nevertheless, he will influence all Christendom to "make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live"; that is, he will engineer a world-wide governmental setup, re-enthroning the principles of the
church-state rule of Ecclesiastical Rome.(Tract 12, p.26-27)

Summary-- The Two-horned beast is the USA and as the "666" man is connected with the THB, we must conclude that the 666 man will be from the USA. Next report we'll close with the 666 information.

A beast symbolically represents a kingdom or nation.

The image is not really a new nation or kingdom, so it's not really a "beast".

The image is a confederation of nations and religions that maintain outward separate identities and power but unite under the leadership of the papacy.

The two horned beast (America) is the major power that brings this unity together -- giving it's military and civic power to enforce it. There is also the ecumenical unity, protestants uniting under the leadership of the papacy, and using the civic power. Also other world nations give their power to this confederation (further detailed in Rev. 17) the whole thing being empowered by the dragon.



In the confederacy the second beast gives his power to the first beast to erect the image of the first beast.

We need to remember that the first beast is not only a religious power but also political power -- it has many faces.

To get America to make this image of the first beast, it's political side needed to be changed.
The political side of America for the last 50 or more years has been changing. Enough changes have taken place that it won't take much to impose a police state, the laws are all in place.

There has been a change in people running the government --
As of 2009, the Supreme Court has a Catholic two-third majority. Catholics represent 30% of Congress.
The Jesuit University of Georgetown has had several alumni in USA government positions: Bill Clinton (former president) Six alumni serve in the United States Senate, and thirteen in the House of Representatives. And several others in other positions.

As to America's religious side -- we hear quite often now that the "protest" of Protestantism is dead. And evangelical and charismatic leaders are responding to the pope's call for unity. And this isn't happening only in America -- this is happening in many countries.

The evidence is there, that America is being groomed by papal powers for it's future role in establishing an image for the papacy.

The image of course would also bear the name and number of the first beast, since it is it's "image" or likeness.

"“We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the papacy; but we should call attention to what the prophets and apostles have written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God.” (TM, p.112)

This quote is not interpreting prophecy but rather dealing with attitude and how the study of prophecies are to influence our own attitudes. It's quite a powerful message.
(you can find the full context in 16MR page 333)

" the human agent is to be kept out of sight, hid in Christ, and that the Lord God of heaven and his law exalted.

The carnal nature tries to rule others and exalts self. The prophecies outline the rise of kingdoms to a short span of fame and glory yet it is important to note that these prophecies (Daniel 7)show how these tyrannical governments were "laid in the dust", for all that kind of glory and power is worthless in the eternal balances.

We should have far more to say about Christ and victory in Him over our own carnal and selfish natures.

The prophecies are to have a sanctifying effect on our lives.

We can know all about the beasts, and the Roman power, but if our study in prophecy doesn't have Christ and His transforming power central, then that knowledge will have no saving power.

Ded- The prophecies are to have a sanctifying effect on our lives.

We can know all about the beasts, and the Roman power, but if our study in prophecy doesn't have Christ and His transforming power central, then that knowledge will have no saving power.


That is a given. But we are to "study to show ourselves approved.."And in this case we should know what prophecy says, the real truth, so that we can know the Lord's future moves.

If we can know the truth of God's word, even in prophecies, we can avoid error. How important is it to not be weighted down in error?

"The good seed represents those who are born of the word of God, the truth.The tares represent a class who are the fruit or embodiment of error, of false principles."(COL, p.70-71)

“We have also a more sure word of prophecy; where unto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.” 2 Pet. 1:19.

If, moreover, the prophecies are less essential than other portion s of the Scriptures, why then, did the Lord cause His servants to write so many of them? obviously, they are as important. The book of The Revelation, which is addressed directly to the people who are to be living just before the Lord’s coming, is made up of symbolical prophecies, concerning which the Lord says:

“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” Rev. 1:3. “Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book....

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Rev. 22:7, 18, 19.

True, the love of Jesus is the supreme need, but preaching about it to the exclusion of the doctrines and the prophecies, will profit one nothing, for through the prophecies and through the doctrines one learns not only of the love of Jesus but also how to serve Him.

“All scripture” says Paul, “is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
(Answerer, vol.2, Q-19)

Excellent post Dedication,

We all need to realize that these precious truths of ours were developed and understood over time. There wasn't anything wrong with the vision received by Sister White, but her and their understanding of all the information available to them took time to gain clearer insight as to the meaning.

It is also important to remember that most of this document was written by James White. You can read the full document if you look it up under "Words of the Adventist Pioneers", then under James White, on the EGW CD.

GLL wrote; "It's amazing how she claims that Dr. Butterbaugh was acting ONLY to support Victor Houteff. Loving not the Truth but rather VTH. Isn't that great that she has the power to explain men's motives---" (bold emphasis mine)

She who? I thought Dedication made that statement.

Of course many names add up to 666, but only one meets the Biblical criteria; the Papacy!

This was a vain post.

GLL wrote; "Now to address Dedications comments.

Ded- What both he and Houteff do is use this very early publication (Word to Little Flock) that contained articles by James White, Joseph Bates and Ellen White, who were just beginning to understand the truths that were to shape Adventism -- and then they take a statement pitting that against what those very pioneers accepted and believed in the years following the publication.

We've underlined an important mis-step by her. When God gives a vision and that person (prophet as in EGW case) gets it--they write it out. This is what EGW did in paragraph 19. God's does not say "Opps, I gave you a wrong vision, let's try again."

So while we know it was deleted, we must keep in mind her first vision and writing of it was God given. Not a mistake as some want to explain it away."

I am not surprised when people have trouble testing a prophet, but they should pray for wisdom and insight to learn.

God gave a promise to Abram, later Abraham, about his seed being as the sands of the seashore etc....

Abraham misunderstood the promise and visions and thought it wise to have a son through Hagar. Abraham actually believed Ishmael was the child of promise until Genesis 17.

Was Abraham a prophet? Absolutely. And just as God straightened out everything with Abraham, God straightened out the understanding of Sister White and the other pioneers as well. This is one of the ways we know Sister White is a true prophetess of God.

Alchemy-- Why don't you try addressing the main thrust of the post instead of isolating just one area-- here it is again for review

Continuing our report we will look at the Two-Horned Beast of Rev. 13.

First let's look at the Leopard-like Beast in order to clear up some points.

"The papacy is represented by symbols on two different beasts. First, on the "non-descript" of Daniel 7, by the "little horn having eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things;"

second, on the "leopard-like" of Revelation 13, by the head that was "wounded to death."

These beasts are universal, representing the entire world in their time, both civil and religious. Therefore, it could not be said of either beast, "it is... a man." The papacy being only a part of both beasts (horn-head on one, and simply a wounded head on the other) cannot be called "the beast." (SRod, vol. 2, p.151)

Important Fact- The prior two places in Revelation that speaks of the LLB , it always mentions the wound with Beast (Verse 3 and 11).Yet after identifying the THB in Rev.13:11, the Word never more mentions the wound in connection with the "Beast". Logically therefore the verses from 11 to 18 do not describe the LLB.

Let us now look more at the THB.

As we all are aware, context is very important in understanding the true meaning of references. Our first position will look at context.

"The Bible puts the number on the two-horned beast. Note that all the characteristics which pertain to the ten-horned beast are described in verses 1-10, and that all which pertain to the two-horned beast are described in verses 11-18. As the number closes the description of the two-horned beast, it cannot logically be applied to the ten-horned beast." (Sym. Code, vol. 8, no.1-12, p.18)


There is no escaping the fact that when one reads verses 11 to 18, the "Beast" mentioned is not describing the LLB of verses 13:1-10.

"The two crown less horns show two non-royalist rulers, while their lamb-like appearance forecasts youthful innocency--Christian-established upon the principles of peace and liberty. And his having the power to dictate who should buy and who should not, shows that he represents a nation that leads in controlling the world's wealth and industry.

Having only two horns, not ten, the beast therefore depicts a local, not universal government. Nevertheless, he will influence all Christendom to "make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and did live." That is, he will engineer a worldwide government setup, rethroning the principles of the church-state rule of Ecclesiastical Rome; a system now characterized by Catholicism, apostate Protestantism, and Capitalism.

In other words, the world will copy the leopard-like beast (verse 12). Put still another way, it means America will urge the world to re-establish a apostate religious-political system after the Western society, with principles imaging those of the Dark Ages (verse 12).

Note it did not say that the Two-horned beast urged the world to worship the "head"-the Papacy, but the "beast"--the system-Catholicism, apostate Protestantism, and Capitalism, topped of with Spiritualism!" (Mt. Dale DSDA report)

"The power that is represented by this two-horn beast will identify itself with "the false prophet," for together they are "cast alive into a lake of fire." Rev. 19:20. From this it is plain to see that the wonders which the beast does in the sight of men, and by which he deceives them "that dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:13, 14), are wrought by the false prophet (Rev. 19:20) "in the sight of the beast." Rev. 13:14.

Clearly, then, the beast's civil authority, combined with the prophet's supernatural power, points to a union of beast and prophet -- an affiliation of state and of church representatives.

Having only two horns, not ten, the beast therefore depicts a local, not a universal, government. Nevertheless, he will influence all Christendom to "make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live"; that is, he will engineer a world-wide governmental setup, re-enthroning the principles of the
church-state rule of Ecclesiastical Rome."(Tract 12, p.26-27)

Summary-- The Two-horned beast is the USA and as the "666" man is connected with the THB, we must conclude that the 666 man will be from the USA. Next report we'll close with the 666 information.

"The unbelief that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to the evidence that God is pleased to give. He requires of His people faith that rests upon the weight of evidence, not perfect knowledge. Those followers of Christ who accept the light that God sends them must obey the voice of God speaking to them when there are many other voices crying out against it.It requires discernment to distinguish the voice of God."(Testimonies, vol. 3, p.255)

My apology for this late reply. I had been working on updating my newest book (America, the Obama Nation available as e-book or hard copy) and I had not been able to access this forum for some time until Daryl suggested I try a different browser.

From my study of Daniel 7 and 8, I understand that America has become the king of the North (the last power to persecute God's people). This is from Bible study.

As the RC plucked up three Arian tribes through their allies,
the prophecy will repeat with America plucking up three Islamic powers. Two have "fell" (Afghanistan and Iraq). The third will be Iran.

In my study of Daniel 11, I have followed the chapter from the three kings in Persia (Cyrus, Darius, & Artaxexese) then the 2300-years to 1844 when Christ stood to commence the IJ. The prophecy repeats at verse 6 (with France as the king of the South and its daughter is the papacy that she BEGOT in 1798)through the ships of Chittam moving against the King of the North (verse 30 - Iran attacking America). Then verses 40 onward explains what led up to the attack and flow to Michael standing (Crist's Advent)

I expected the #IranUSwar much sooner. But now it looks like the Supreme court is to adopt the gay marriage abomination first. Then after America has rejected One Nation Under God the #IranUSwar will follow. This will be followed by President Obama implementing the National Sunday Law as he does exploits against the covenant.

If you have not read America, The Obama Nation, you should.

I continue to study. But the explanation in America, The Obama Nation expresses my understanding at this point in time. As history and prophecy c continue to intersect, I pray that my understanding will continue grow appropriately.

I have read all the posts in this thread since I last visited this forum. They are very interesting and well thought out.

But we need to remember that

1) prophecy is not of private interpretation.

2) Read the Bible as it is written.

3) Daniel and Revelation relate to the PAST, PRESENT, & FUTURE.

4) Since 666 is the number of the papal beast, it has to be the number of the image beast as well.

5) If something was not important, God would not put it in Bible prophecy.

6) When God puts things in Bible prophecy, He puts the keys to unlock the prophecy in the Bible also.

7) Wisdom comes from God not human reasoning (Ask Him for it)

8) Scriptures can only be rightly understood wit the aide of the Holy Spirit - not by might or power but by God's Spirit

9) NEVER open the word of God without prayer

10) Studying with godly people is safer than going it alone.

Blessings GLL;

You wrote; "Alchemy-- Why don't you try addressing the main thrust of the post instead of isolating just one area-- here it is again for review"

I try to isolate points that I believe are most misunderstood. With all due respect; You seem to greatly misunderstand how prophecy and prophets work.

Now, you are the one who keeps bringing up Word to the Little Flock (WLF) and you keep making the same mistake. Dedication has answered this very well and you continue to misunderstand.

As far as the thrust of this thread is concerned, your the one challenging the points of this thread. I believe you should keep within the thrust of this thread.

perhaps you missed this:

Gordon,

I'm sorry I missed this.
I was concentrating on getting my last book updated, and after several months of being away from the forum, it got by me.

"But what do you mean of the Gulf attack? Iran is one of the most pacifist of developed countries, America the most bellicose... There is a MUCH higher probability that American forces would provoke Iran with a covert attack, because this is their track record.(i.e. U.S. fires first shot)"

As I read and document Daniel 11:1 to 12:1; it has been completely fulfilled from the 3 kings in Persia that began the 2300-years until Jesus stood for His people in 1844 to commence the IJ.

This is the short version:

At the end of the 2300-years, 1844 aligns with eating the little book Daniel 11 in Rev 10 then the command comes to prophesy again. John is the Revelator and Daniel is the prophet. Time is to be no longer because the 2300-years have ended and when Daniel 11 repeats, the 2300-years do not repeat.

Daniel 11 repeats at verse 6 (at the time of the end) with France as KOTS (Napoleon got the title when he invaded Egypt 1798) and Great Britain as KOTN (it propped up the faltering Ottoman empire 1840). The papacy is the daughter of the KOTS because France took Rome in 1798). The KOTS and KOTN join (become allies in 186? to fight Russia in Crimean war). Then Italy is unified and pope sought KOTN & KOTS aid to keep papal states. Branch of papal roots (church or state) was Mussolini who moved against English Africa (Kenya) which GB gave to him and redrew borders. Then England faltered in WWII and Roosevelt became KOTN. KOTS Mussolini ruled longer than Roosevelt. Then KOTS went back to Egypt. Israel 1948. Then war with Egypt...

Much of the history in Dan 11 repeats but not the time.

The narration that begins at 11:6 after 1844 runs through 11:39. 11:40 is a caveat that explains what immediately preceded 11:30.

The caveat deals with Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia being in America's steps. Beginning in 2011 in this exact sequence: Egypt's dictator was jailed. Libya's dictator was killed. and Ethiopia's dictator died unexpectedly of illness.

And we have arrived at the place (Daniel 11:30) when the KOTS (I'm reading that to be Iran -America has put sanctions on it until it is about at the breaking point) is going to attack the fleet of the KOTN and then Obama does exploits against the Covenant (America's Constitution and God's Covenant 10 Commandments).

The Iranian navy announced in March(?) that if war should come between US and Iran, Iran will sink the US Aircraft carriers because they are America's air power in the region. He went on to say that it will take 24 simultaneous strikes (by drones, planes, and ships or whatever to sink one). Their studies have shown that a carrier cannot defend itself against such a synchronized barrage. When Iran announced that they have studied how to sink our carriers the US joint chiefs laughed it off like they are the unsinkable Titanic.

All of this and the supporting documentation and so much more is in my recent book America, the Obama Nation. e-book $10 paperback $15

If you want to understand the formation of the image beast study the papal beast. From the territory comprising the Western Roman Empire, it took out the Arian Visigoths, Vandals, and Ostrogoths in a 30-year period. My study in Daniel identifies Reagan as the first king from the earth and Obama as the last. It has been 30-years since Reagan was President. As Daniel is repeating from the territory comprising the Eastern Roman Empire, America has taken out 2 Islamic countries (Afghanistan and Iraq with one to go to finish the tally of 3)

I hope this reply was worth your wait.

I once assumed that the papal beast having the number 666 was unimportant and that the number 666 must really identify the second beast with the lamblike horns.

Then with more prayer and study I reached the conclusion that for the image beast to be and image beast, they both had to have the number. Then I accepted the traditional SDA view of the papal 666.

Then when I studied the throne being cast down and set up in Daniel 7, I learned that it was not an either or question but Daniel was saying both. When the Babylonian thrones were cast Down, the Medo-Persian thrones were set up. When the Medo-Persian thrones were cast Down, the Greek thrones were set up. When the Greek thrones were cast Down, the pagan Roman thrones were set up. And when the pagan Roman thrones were cast Down, the papal Roman thrones were set up.

So when the papal Roman thrones were cast down, what thrones were set up? The USA.



When France cast down the papal thrones over all the churches and state in 1798, France then sold to America the vast sparsely uninhabited area the Louisiana (Territory) Purchase. An Identifying feature of the beast with lamblike horns - it will bring fire down from heaven upon the earth in the sight of eyewitnesses. Truman did that in WWII on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He was from Missouri in the heart of the Louisiana Territory. And Obama will do it again.



When the papal Roman thrones over the churches and state were cast Down, the US purchased the Louisiana Territory and President Monroe set up the thrones in this sparsely populated part of the USA. Then in 1844 God took his seat upon His throne and the Judgment (IJ) began in heaven.

Consider the chart taken © 2015 from
America, The Obama Nation page 138:

President...................Letters in their names
James Monroe.............................11
John Quincy Adams......................15
Andrew Jackson II........................13
Martin Van Buren.........................14
William Henry Harrison..................20
John Tyler II...............................11
James Knox Polk..........................13
Zachary Taylor............................13
Millard Fillmore...........................15
Franklin Pierce............................14
James Buchanan II........................15
Abraham Lincoln..........................14
Andrew Johnson...........................13
Ulysses Simpson Grant....................19
Rutherford Birchard Hayes...............23
James Abram Garfield....................18
Chester Alan Arthur.......................17
Stephen Grover Cleveland................22
Benjamin Harrison.........................16
William McKinley II........................17
Theodore Roosevelt II....................19
William Howard Taft......................17
Woodrow Wilson...........................13
Warren Gamaliel Harding.................21
Calvin Coolidge............................14
Herbert Clark Hoover.....................18
Franklin Delano Roosevelt................23
Harry S. Truman............................12
Dwight David Eisenhower.................21
John Fitzgerald Kennedy..................21
Lyndon Baines Johnson...................19
Richard Milhous Nixon.....................19
Gerald Rudolph Ford II....................19
James Earl Carter II.......................17
Ronald Wilson Reagan.....................18
George Herbert Walker Bush............23
William Jefferson Clinton................23
George Walker Bush.......................16
Barack Hussein Obama II..................20
___________________________________________
..............................................666

The papacy is 666 and the number of his name is made up for the image beast.

Present Truth changes. For example: circumcision was Present Truth from Abraham until Christ.

When Christ fulfilled the law regarding circumcision, the Present Truth was that it is not required now.

The papacy fits the 666 scenario. That was Present Truth when it was discovered. But does light stop there?


The light on the papal 666 was Present Truth for yesterday, yesterday's meal. It is true and it had its purpose, but if we stop there, how will we understand what we need to know as the coming of our Lord draws near? Surely if we take the attitude that that is all there is, we will stunt our growth.

What happens if we get a new US president at the next elections?

Jesus must return within President Obama's presidency or else the interpretation is incorrect. Let's hope and pray it is not incorrect. Nevertheless, I am confident His Child will persevere and learn a way to adjust his interpretation to account for things if a new president is elected and Jesus hasn't returned.

Blessings His child,

Not all the presidents are listed?!?

And I'm not going to add all that up.

That isn't what makes the USA the Image of the Beast. We also need to know that the document "The Word to the Little Flock" doesn't present any contradictions to speak of.

LOL

Isn't it odd that the whole world completely ignores the interpretation given by the angel? He said, "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are ... seven kings. Five have fallen, ONE IS, and the other has not yet come" (Rev. 17:9-11) What is the number of the man -- sorry, the head who is king -- the one who IS? There are false prophets everywhere. Men have grown to love the speculation of the blind. To them, the book has become a sealed work of indecipherable letters.

///

For two thousand years Christians have been praying, "Come, Lord Jesus".

They may often have thought, This emperor is the last one.

Let's still keep praying, "Come, Lord Jesus".

What happened in 1843 and 44 when Christ did not come? The Adventists had to go back and see why their understanding of Bible prophecy failed.

But what happens if Iran attacks America's fleet, & President Obama is the American President that does exploits against the Covenant and SDA's fail to do what needs to be done?

My feasting on humble pie will not be nearly as devastating to me as the consequences to the Church if I am right and SDA's just blow me off.

As pointed out in the post, the listing of presidents begins with Monroe, who facilitated the Louisiana Purchase and set up thrones in the sparsely populated earth that was added to America in 1803 (5-years after the papacy fell in 1798)

Thanks for asking. Sorry it was not more clear.

The date of 1844 was not wrong. It was a misinterpretation of the event, not the timing. If you are wrong, you are completely wrong with no fall back on a misinterpretation of timing. 1844 was not a cry of wolf. Yours would be. Big difference.

MM, we've been over this ground before. I have been wrong about some things before and I have been right that Benedict would not be pope in 2013 - HE MIGHT LAST TILL THE SPRING OF 2013?

My view still has room for a new president for less than a year after Obama. But the prophecy that you most likely have not taken the time to study thoroughly in view of the new light presented would show that my posts are solidly based on Bible study. Nevertheless, I am confident you have not helped to get the word of warning out to others by your wishing that Jesus would come on the one hand and doubting that He will come during Obama's Presidency on the other.

Will your faithless doubting account for your lack of studying to show yourself approved of God. When things that prophecy has foretold come to pass differently than you imagined and Jesus returns within Mr. Obama's term or shortly thereafter? Don't be to confident that you can afford to delay to do what must be done while we still have a Mediator pleading for us in the Sanctuary. The sins of omission are just as deadly as the sins of commission.

Christian regards,

Daniel's prophecy identifies President Obama as sure as it identified 1844. But your certainty that this is crying wolf is not unlike the skeptics of yesteryear that denied 1844.

If you are not working to hasten Christ's Advent by searching the prophecy to see if these things are so and promoting them, then you are working to delay His coming and preparing to take the mark of the beast.

Daniel's prophesy gives us a guidepost as to what is happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary. But most reject it.

We need to follow John

Nebuchadnezzar's gold statue measured six cubits by six cubits (when only one measurement is given Babylonian geometry assumed a square) by 60 cubits tall.
6,6,60.

"Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height [was] threescore cubits, [and] the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon."

Daniel 3:1

I am sincere, His Child. I truly believe you will adjust your interpretation if it doesn't play out accordingly. I do not mean it as an insult. Sorry if it sounds like it. I am solid on the interpretation I subscribe to. I have no doubt it will play out accordingly. No doubt. Satan will deceive Catholics, Protestants, and worldlings through spiritualism leading them to believe the Sabbath has been moved to Sunday. Seventh-day Adventists will be blamed for the man-made and natural disasters devastating the planet. Jesus will return shortly thereafter. This is the message I practice and proclaim.

A great quote, MM.



His claim to present a "more exalted system of religious faith" is shown by a majority vote at the recent GC session and by members of this forum.

A former GC president Neal Wilson, warned us against the independent ministers presenting this exalted system of religious faith. His own son appears to have turned away from his own father's warnings and now approves of the systems his father warned us against. Certainly a fulfillment of prophecy and warnings of what will happen within the church before Jesus appears on a cloud of glory.

Indeed, prophecy is being fulfilled:
SOP tells us that many will abandon our ranks in favor of the Beast. Neal Wilson, the so called leader who has no "...aversion to Roman Catholicism as such.". Appears to be one of them. Praise God the son has turned from his father's traitorous path!



1976: "Neal Wilson, President of the North American Division of SDA, gives this Sworn statement in the Silver-Tobler legal case involving the Seventh-day Adventist Church:  Although it is true that there was a period in the life of the Seventh-day Adventist Church when the denomination took a distinctly anti-Roman Catholic viewpoint, and the term, hierarchy was used in a perjorative sense to refer to the papal form of church governance, that attitude on the Church’s part was nothing more than a manifestation of widespread anti-popery among conservative protestant denominations in the early part of this century and the latter part of the last, and which has now been assigned to the historical trash heap so far as the Seventh-day Adventist Church is concerned.  Merikay McLeod lawsuit (P. 4, footnote #2, Docket Entry #84: EEOC vs PPPA C-74-2025 CBR). Sworn statement dated Feb.6, 1976.

Further in the same brief:  While, however, Adventist doctrine continues to teach that church government by one man is contrary to the Word of God, it is not good Seventh-day Adventism to express… an aversion to Roman Catholicism as such." (p. 30)


“It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the papacy.” Ellen White, Signs, Feb. 19, 1894.

iIni

?

I was at least 60 km from home at the time this got posted

MM

If I am wrong, it will be a misreading of the Bible on my part. I might get embarrassed.

If you're misreading the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy, when the things that I warned of come to be, you will realize your error. But it may be too late to correct the errors that you held so dear or to place your influence on the side of a position that you once belittled and scoffed. Like those in Noah's day that waited until it started raining before they saw their errors.

While Jesus is finishing His work in Heaven's Sanctuary, you would be blessed by a review of what I have to say to be sure that you understood my position and to be sure that you have not rejected truth that you failed to investigate thoroughly.

Other ideas:

2 phase matches.


1Kgs.10:14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold.

2 Chro. 9:13 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;

Solomon brought so much gold into his country from other places that the whole amounted, every year, to 666 talents, an ominous number, compare Rev. 13:18, and Ezra 2:13. 2.


Rev.13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Is Solomon in some way a representative of the 666 "man" of Revelation?
This may indicate that the 666 may not be someone "pure evil" but rather someone(s) who started out as powerfully good.


1 kings 10 shows some more connecting links with Solomon and the beast Babylonian power of the end time.
His wealth, commerce, luxury, "great riches"...

Solomon's throne had SIX steps and on each side of those steps were SIX lions for a total of 12 lions. (10:20)

Solomon began as a worshipper of the true God, and continued supporting that worship, BUT he also built shrines and temples for all the heathen gods around Jerusalem. (1 Kings 11:5-8)


The church in Rome started out as a strong witness for Christ, but then started incorporating all kinds of pagan things into their worship.

Tx for bringing this up. I was about to do the same. In these two texts 666 is related to gold which in those days and for the longest time was the currency of the world. It was their money. Paper money only came up I think in 1700s (don't recall the date anymore but not that long ago).

Note that in Ezra 2:13 the sons of Adonikam(Lord of rising) is 666. Adoni means Lord and kam(koom) means rising.



Six is the number of man. The normal proportion of man is 6:1, however King Nebuchadnezzar statue of gold was hyped with a proportion of 10:1. The Lord does establish men as kings(Rom 13) however, we are not to hype ourself and acknowledge the King of kings and His laws. Any kings on earth or anyone with some authority over others do not have the right to usurpe the throne. Just a side note, King Nebuchednezzar did recognize the Lord as the King of kings at the end. This is also a type of what is to come.

Dan 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, the height of which was sixty cubits and its width six cubits; he set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon.

Another thing to note is the numeric value of Dan 3:1 is exactly 4662 which is 666 x 7. Seven means "perfect".

Without digressing about the meaning of 7 here, we can see a connection with Old Babylon's event in Dan 3 with Mystery Babylon's(2nd beast of Rev 13) event. Both brought up a statue, both required everyone to worship it.



I disagree with this. I think King Nebuchenedzzar fit this parallele better. His kingdom (the Babylonian Kingdom) was a beast type of kingdom because the man Nebuchadnezzar who rule over men with a heart as a beast who ate "ate grass" like a beast -- meaning he ate men "for all flesh are like grass"1Pt 1:24). Solomon, despite he worshipped false gods as all of us did, doesn’t fit the Mystery Babylon template at all.


King David had the same….would you draw this parallele with him too?


Lions represents rulers. Jesus had 12 disciples (2 sets of SIX) like Solomon steps.


This is not exactly true. Solomon had the priviledge to have learn from David and started on the right foot from David's plans and learnings. Whereas the early church had to unlearn the teachings of men that they got from Judaism in those years and relearn from the Holy Spirit. So the comparison of their beginning are not similar. Also your conclusion is inaccurate and doesn't fit the order of the types that the Lord laid out.

3 main patterns :
1-Feast : i)Passover, ii)Pentecost, and iii)Tabernacle.
2-People : i)Congregation, ii)Levites, and iii)Priest
3-Kingdoms : i)Israel with no Kings, ii)King Saul & King David, iii)King Solomon

I have already shown the connection of these (except for 3i) with scriptures in my previous posts and can elaborate for anyone who ask for more detail. For now, keep these in mind.

After King Solomon the kingdom was divided until it was destroyed. We know a divided kingdom cannot stand. However, it was not all of Solomon's fault. The nation of Israel always worshipped false gods from the start. There were always some very few exception to this generalization, but as a nation, they were idols worshippers from the start. The failure of Israel including the kingdom of Saul, David & Solomon, was always in the Lord's plan to fail in some ways. However, their failures should not be our main focus, but to understand what the Lord still brought forth in these 3 kinds of types with the historical events of Israel with the feasts, the kingdom layout with its sacrificial services, and these kingdoms. The order of these overlay over each other, so we can see the Lord’s plan in various dimensions.

You mention above that the Church of Rome was a type of Solomon; I disagree on that as it doesn’t fit the patterns above. The Church of Rome was a type of the Kingdom of Saul, not Solomon. Saul was crown on Pentecost, like the early Church started at Pentecost. They both started with an anointment of the Holy Spirit, but it wore off. They both ended up usurping the King of Kings position and right to rule, by disregarding the Lord’s laws and ruling as they pleased. Solomon does not fit this type at all.

David on the other hand represents, the overcomers. David was persecuted 12 years by Saul, like the Church of Rome persecuted their own members. Solomon does not fit that type. David represents those that will rule with Christ. Note that David was not allowed to build the temple in his lifetime. This represents that we do not rule in our lifetime or in this corrupt body.

Solomon Kingdom’s beginning was glorious. He build the temple and the glory of God was fully manifested. Solomon tied himself with all nations "by marriage"(symbolic) who came to see the kingdom and his wisdom in judgment. This is the type of the coming kingdom in the millennium where Isaiah said
“
AV Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The name Solomon means peace. Solomon's Kingdom was a Kingdom of peace. That's what Isaiah 2 prophecied of the coming kingdom.

I do not recall belittling or scoffing at your interpretation. I am sorry if it seems so. I respect the time and effort you have invested to arrive at your conclusions. I am convinced the stage has been set for Jesus to return since shortly after 1844. The balance of unfulfilled prophecy would have played out rapidly. There is no indication in the following insight to suggest prophecy is waiting for a line up of individual popes and presidents to come and go before Jesus can return.

Revelation
13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

666 is the number of the name of the man of the beast.

Have you noticed the two "or" in verse 17.

All three (name, mark, or number) is related or identifies the beast that brings about to buy or sell.

hmmm. it seems you are departing slighly from what scripture says. see note above about v.17.

Many translation say verse 18 this way :


V.18 says the number 666
- has a meaning
- is to be solved
-is a number of a man
-is the number of the beast

Here's an interesting study of solving the number 666 and a parallele made of Rev 13:16-18 with Daniel 3 by Stephen Jones.

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/d...rcomers-part-1/

"Daniel 3:1 begins,

1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, the height of which was sixty cubits and its width six cubits; he set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon.

The Number 666

The numeric value of Daniel 3:1 is precisely or 666 x 7. Six is the number of man, and 666 is seen also in Revelation 13:18 in connection with the second beast of the little horn whose “mark” is money in the modern financial system. The number is also associated with gold in 1 Kings 10:14,

14 Now the weight of gold which came in to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold.

Gold is not evil, but the love of money is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10). We are not to make any gods out of gold or silver (Exodus 20:23), as the Babylonian king was doing. God claims all the gold by right of creation, and so He alone has the right to determine its use as well. In Joshua 6:19 God said,

19 But all the silver and gold and articles of bronze and iron are holy to the Lord; they shall go into the treasury of the Lord.

As part of God’s treasury, the four metals mentioned above are also the four kingdoms of men revealed in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream (Daniel 2:32, 33). Even as Joshua overthrew Jericho, so also will God overthrow Babylon, for Jericho was a type of Babylon. The instruction to put all the metals of Jericho into God’s treasury indicates that Babylon’s overthrow was not designed to destroy the people, but to set them free by putting them under the authority of Christ (Joshua-Yeshua). The people are thus represented by the four metals, and their labor is to be directed toward building the Kingdom and serving the true Heir of the World.

The 666 Factor itself has to do with Christ and His treasury (Kingdom assets), whose ownership and use are contested by the kingdoms of men. Hence, in most applications of this number throughout Scripture, we see Christ’s authority being usurped by man, and so it appears in a negative context. This is seen in Psalm 118:22, where the phrase “the chief corner stone” has a numeric value of 666. It is a prophecy of the rejection of Christ, who is that chief corner stone (Ephesians 2:20), and the usurpation of His rightful position.

In the case of Solomon, whose kingdom at first prophesied of the Prince of Peace ruling in the Age of Peace in the true City of Peace, we find in his later years that he usurped the place of Christ and used God’s treasury for evil purposes. The same is seen in Revelation 13:18, where the financial beast from the earth causes men to worship the beast-system and its god—in this case, gold, or money in general.

It is interesting that the phrase used in Revelation 13:18, “his number is six hundred and sixty-six” carries the numeric value of 2368, which is the same as “Jesus Christ.” The name Jesus, or Iesous, is 888, while Christ, or Christos, is 1480. Together they add up to 2368. In other words, the true 666, i.e., the True Man, is Jesus Christ, even though imperfect men have rejected Him and have usurped the number for themselves.

Therefore, the underlying principle on which this column was constructed was the elevation of man above God through the worship of gold.

The Ceremony

Daniel 3:2, 3 continues,

2 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent word to assemble the satraps, the prefects and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates and all the rulers of the provinces to come to the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up. 3 Then the satraps, the prefects and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates and all the rulers of the provinces were assembled for the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.

All government officials were required to gather around the golden image and bow before it, indicating their agreement with the king’s decree. This occurred in the time of Daniel—who was conspicuously and mysteriously absent—but it prophesied of a time yet to come, as seen in Revelation 13:11-18. In fact, it is only by connecting Daniel 3 with Revelation 13 that we are able to understand the meaning of either passage, because each gives us only half of the revelation.

Daniel 3:4-6 says,

4 Then the herald loudly proclaimed, “To you the command is given, O peoples, nations and men of every language, 5 that at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, bagpipe, and all kinds of music, you are to fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king has set up. 6 But whoever does not fall down and worship shall immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire.”

It is interesting that six musical instruments are listed here, for this again suggests man’s carnal influence. Likewise, it prophecies that music itself was to be an important tool by which Mystery Babylon would cause men to bow down to the god of gold. A mere command may require eloquence to induce obedience, but music causes men to accept messages more easily. Music opens the doors of the heart more quickly than eloquence.

Broadly speaking, music, art, and philosophy not only reflect the culture and worship of a society, but these may also be manipulated and used to direct culture toward a desired end or goal. In these last days of Mystery Babylon, the modern kings of Babylon have done this by glorifying despair as “realism,” presenting crud as art, and saturating the airwaves with the music of rebellion, drugs, and self-centered base instincts.

The result has been a complete change from God-centered culture to one that glorifies self, and most people do not even realize what is being done to them. The worship of man leads inevitably to the worship of elite men, who then are empowered by such worship to enslave humanity, even while proclaiming man’s freedom from godly constraints.

The penalty for not worshiping the image of the beast is that he “shall immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire” (Dan. 3:6). This is the tribulation fire that is an ever-present threat during the long “seven times” captivity to the kingdoms of men, beginning with the “head of gold.”

The furnace of fire is a metaphor for tribulation and captivity. It was thus used by Moses in Deut. 4:20,

20 But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, from Egypt, to be a people for His own possession, as today.

Although the “furnace” was metaphorical, it was a very real metaphor, because their bondage in Egypt was like being smelted in an Egyptian furnace to purify the Israelites like iron ore. The purpose of smelting, of course, was to make the metal useful.

The purpose of tribulation, insofar as God is concerned, is to baptize the overcomers in the fire of the Holy Spirit and the character of God Himself—who appeared later only as Fire. However, on the surface, the threat of the Babylonian king was to punish and torture all who refused to acknowledge the king’s decrees as taking precedence over God’s law. The Babylonian purpose was not to create something useful by fire, but to cause pain in order to induce subservience.

This threat is one more counterfeit, for in God’s Kingdom the believers are offered the “baptism of fire,” that is, the Holy Spirit’s baptism. Whereas Babylon’s fire pictures persecution and tribulation, the Divine Fire is given to purify the believers from the ungodly idolatry of Mystery Babylon.

The Response of the Officials

Daniel 3:7 continues,

7 Therefore at that time, when all the peoples heard the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, bagpipe, and all kinds of music, all the peoples, nations, and men of every language fell down and worshiped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

The New Testament counterpart to this is found in Revelation 13:16, 17,

16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand, or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one should be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

The command, prophetically speaking, is that men should worship money, because the “mark of the beast” is the counterfeit of the divine law commanding us to write the law upon our hand and upon our forehead. Deuteronomy 11:18 says,

18 You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

When applied to the story in Daniel 3, we see that Daniel’s three friends refused to worship the beast and so were cast into the fires of tribulation. They stand as examples of the overcomers living in this time of tribulation. They chose the mark of God, which was to write the law in their hands (labor) and in their foreheads (way of thinking), which, taken together, describes their worship of God rather than man.
"

MM. Your unchanging skepticism speaks volumes in what you did say: "I truly believe you will adjust your interpretation if it doesn't play out accordingly..."

That's what Bible students do. They study to understand to the best of their knowledge and when things come to pass or fail to come to pass, they update their understanding accordingly by comparing their understanding of the prophecy to its fulfillment and re-examining the Scriptures.

[In 1843 Jesus did not come. Revision (adjustment of their interpretation): Jesus will come in 1844. He did not come in 1844. Revision (adjustment of their interpretation): He was not supposed to come He was supposed to begin the Investigative Judgment in Heaven.] But some folks forget how God led in the past 1843-1844 and expect Him to lead some other way now.

But please forgive me if I ever gave the impression that you actively belittled or scoffed at my interpretation. My concern is that you did not understand it and therefore you placed no value in it. It was not valuable enough to merit diligent consideration. Thus it was ignored by many who could have united with it to accomplish what God would have had us to do in times of relative peace.

And when my 1843-1844 experience gave way to correctly understanding that Benedict would not be pope in 2013, did you take the time to give it another look? No, you confirmed your unbelief by writing: "I truly believe you will adjust your interpretation if it doesn't play out accordingly..."

You do not understand how indifference to my studies has set the cause of God back or that I've given my best years and sacrificed more than anyone here will ever know: only to be attacked by Satan almost to the point of despair.

But enough wallowing in self-pity. Jesus never promised no trials, He promised victories and if we fall short, we have an Advocate with the Father.

His Child, I have no doubt your interpretation will not be fulfilled in the way you envision. I am certain Jesus will not return within your time frame (within a year after President Obama leaves office). But please do not mistake my observations for belligerence. I respect you as a Christian and as a student of the Bible. Just because I disagree with your interpretation of prophecy it does not mean I dislike you. You disagree with my interpretation of prophecy and I'm not at all offended. As I see it, the 7/8 kingdoms are:

1) Babylon
2) Medo-Persia
3) Grecia
4) Rome
5) Catholic Europe
6) Communist Europe
7) Apostate Protestant America
8) Catholic Europe Restored

I believe we are in the transition period between the 6th and 7th kingdoms.

The following are just some thoughts I had on the 666 of Revelation:

Why three sixes? If six is the number of man, Adam and Eve being created on the sixth day, could three sixes signify three distinct satanically inspired, man made systems: the Dragon, the Beast, and the False Prophet? Each a separate 6, yet united as 666,
a counterfeit of God:

Dragon (father of lies)= The Father,

Beast (vicar of Christ)= Jesus,

False Prophet ("He will teach you all things")= The Holy Spirit.

As with God, three distinct persons/systems united in purpose but with three unique roles:

The Dragon providing authority/ "the Father is above all";

The Beast providing a body (Catholicism being the largest "christian" denomination)/ "the Word was made flesh"

The False Prophet providing validation/ "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy"


"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."
Revelation 16:13

The same message being delivered by three different systems. Perhaps tailored to different worldviews, in order to unite the planet beneath Satan's banner?


As has been pointed out, Revelation 13:17 says: "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

Since the main characteristic of Babylon is confusion, it would seem logical that different modes of communication or spiritual languages would be necessary to deceive the whole world, a kind of divide and conquer strategy.

Could the Mark, or Name, or Number represent the same 666/Sun Worship enforcement accomplished by a method to which each group is most vulnerable?
For instance, the Dragon, being pagan, may deny the jurisdiction of God outright, simply refusing to acknowledge His existence; therefore keeping "the venerable day of the Sun" is no sin, merely common sense.
The Beast might employ "traditions of men" via priestly authority to "make vain the commandment of God".
The False Prophet might manifest a counterfeit "untested Spirit" through the channel of the charismatic movement. "the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit."
John 6:63, a false Holy Spirit leading to a false Commandment.

Each method of deception designed to ensnare a different class of soul, yet with the same goal: Mark, or Name, or Number though different are in complete unity.

13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

THE MARK
sign of allegiance to Roman church hierarchy (the papal Sabbath)

HAVING THE NAME OF THE BEAST
being one of the "privileged" or aristocratic members of the hierarchy

THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME
being one of the servants or vassals of the hierarchy.


It has been said that economic crises is engineered and used to an end.
That end is to strip the middle class of their assets, re-establish an aristocratic class that basically controls the lower class.

Solomon's beginning was glorious -- on that point we agree.

But what follows is the pattern of deception in the last days.

Solomon tied himself with all nations "by marriage"(symbolic)of UNHOLY UNION with the world.

I Kings 11:2-6 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love....and his wives turned away his heart. ...For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD,

Oh, he did not abandon the form of worship in God's temple, but he ALSO built temples for all these heathen gods in and around Jerusalem. -- Just like the Roman Christian church -- they did not abandon the form of Christianity, but ALSO incorporated all manner of heathen worship practices.

Money, fancy buildings, a grand court, and luxuries became Solomon's god; and, as a result, the people were sorely oppressed. The extravagance practiced in selfish indulgence necessitated a grinding taxation upon the poor. He put a grievous yoke upon the people.
He built whole cities just to house all his horses and chariots and the servants that took care of them. (See 1 Kings 9:19)

There was a distinct "aristocratic" class developed, which the people had to serve and support.

This is NOT the path to the eternal kingdom.

Nor does Isaiah 2 predict this:

In the last day a DECEPTIVE kingdom will be set up that will attempt to rule over the whole world. But read the end.

2:3 And many people shall go and say, (notice WHO IS SPEAKING -- it is many people) Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
(That's what the people said -- they thought they were establishing an earthly kingdom of peace) 2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
2:7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither [is there any] end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither [is there any] end of their chariots:
2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

(God wasn't at all pleased.
Why? Just like Solomon, they are more interested in silver and gold, their horses and chariots, and their of idols.

That is NOT the kingdom of peace.
That is the deception that will have the Mark, the name, the number that end in destruction.

"Six hundred threescore and six". Isn't it 666 ones (1 X 666)? Not sure it means 3 separate 6's. I like your counterfeit Godhead idea. I read about that 30 years ago.

I have heard a Catholic Father preach to his congregation in Germany that all of the Protestants will be lost unless they join the Catholic church

I guess I'm not the first to notice the similarity.

You are right, it is six hundred threescore and six. I was just looking at it as the number six being the day humans were created, and being one less than seven, just short of perfection or completeness. Why 666, why not just 6, if it is "the number of a man".
Visually, it looks like three sixes. With three systems of evil: Dragon, Beast, False Prophet, it seems as though there ought to be a connection.

Just something that occurred to me. I wondered what others thought about it.

Thanks for your comment, MM.

The understanding of numbers comes from our mathematical culture. In Greek and Roman times, they did not generally have placeholders in numbers like we do today. For example, when we write the number 25, we think of 2x10 (raised to the first power, 10) + 5 x 10 (raised to the zero power, which is just 1), or in other words, we think of 20+5 = twenty five. We do not think of 2 and 5 nor do we think of 2 + 5. The placeholder tells us that the 2 is to be multiplied by 10. If we wrote 367, then we think of 3x10(raised to the second power, or 100) + 6x10(raised to the first power, or 10) + 7x10(raised to the zero power, or just 1), or 300 + 60 + 7 = three hundred sixty seven. The position to the left of the number on the far right of the number that is just to the left of the decimal point (implied or actually there) is determined by its placeholder value. Each position over to the left increases the multiplier of 10 by an additional factor of 10. This concept of the placeholder was generally missing in Greek and Roman mathematics. I seem to recall that the Babylonians may have sometimes used a simple form of placeholder in some of their mathematics, but it was not well developed like we have and used very little.

So, when John wrote the words which we translate as six hundred sixty six, not one single person in ancient times would have thought "666" like we do because they did not write numbers that way. This simple fact of history and culture of the time destroys the idea that John was intending to write 666 as we think of it, nor was he writing these as three sixes in a row. Had John written three sixes in a row, the mathematical culture of the times would have dictated that they take the words, hex hex hex, and ADD them together to arrive at the sum of 18, not 666. The reason is that the leftmost hex would NOT have the value of 600, but merely 6. The next hex would have the value of 6, not 60, but the final hex would have the value of 6. And with the rules they used, adding hex hex hex would give theme 18.

The way the number was actually written indicates that the correct interpretation is six hundred sixty six, which we write as 666. John made it very clear what he was told by the angel so we would not make a mistake about this. And the woman is connected with Babylon, so the number must come from Babylon. History shows that is exactly where it originated.

If you go back to this idea of hex hex hex, you will find this in church history being mentioned during the writing of the documents that eventually became known as the Symposium on Daniel and Revelation that you can buy at the ABC stores online. I recall reading where Beatrice Neal (she and her husband came to teach at Union College in the theology department when I was working for Union College after my graduation there in 1978) wrote about this idea of three sixes in a row in the section on Revelation. If I recall, these ideas were proposed by her in the early 1980s as part of the study that was dealing with the questions put forward by Desmond Ford. Somewhere along the line, possibly because she mentions this in that document, this idea resonated with church leaders and they decided that this was a very good idea as a substitute for the Vicarius Filii Dei idea that the church has promoted in the past, but was unable to actually prove because of its inability to prove this phrase was actually written on the pope's hat.

They gave it a nice try, perhaps, but it was not, in my thinking, all that well thought out. God created man on the 6th day and clearly declared that day to be a good day. Who are we to say otherwise regardless of what followed? The only day that can be said to be a symbol of man as a sinner is the day on which he sinned (and it should be obvious that this day then symbolizes the evil of man), which we know only was not on the Sabbath. It was on any of the first six days of the week and we cannot pin it down. Thus, we have no basis to say that the number 6 in the creation and sin story is a symbol of man as a sinful being. That just does not fly. I think they need a bigger (and better) theory!

Wendell, thanks for sharing. I like the Babylonian Amulet way of explaining 666. However, it does not explain (or does it) why John describes it as the number of the name of the man of the beast.

Maybe it would be better if we attempt to interpret this number in Revelation 13, the same way as we have dealt with other numbers in the Apocalypse; specifically by regarding them with symbolic qualities. The number six indicates human earthly attempts at that which is heavenly. Seven is the number of perfection, and is descriptive of universality, and is therefore the symbol pertaining to God, while six is a type of a deceptive fullness, importance, and seeming completeness which appears to be perfect, but in reality falls short of the heavenly ideal.

Let's do some comparing within the book of Revelation itself





THE Number of the NAME of the BEAST

Roman power -- LATEINOS

As early as Irenaeus (A.D.130-202) some Christians connected 666 with the Roman power calculating the "Latin ruling kingdom" LATEINOS and finding it added up to 666. The letters of this word makes up exactly 666, thus; 30. 1. 300. 5. 10. 50. 70. 200. in all 666.

Roman spirituality -- VICARIUS FILII DEI

Even though the Donation of Constantine was not written by Constantine and is a forgery written some 300 years later to advance the power of the Roman church; this document was cited in writing by no less than ten popes as proof of their authority and sovereignty!
"As the Blessed Peter is seen to have been constituted VICARIUS FILII DEI on earth, so the Pontiffs who are the representatives of that same chief..."

As late as 1968 Pope Paul VI used the term "Vicarius Filli Dei" twice in his papal decrees. (See Bafianae, January 11, 1968, and Rivi Muniensis, August 9, 1965)

It is no secret that the popes claim to be the vicars of the Son of God. The number of the name matches -- 666


Roman Church -- Babylon

The 666 identifies Babylon. Am amulet worn by priests of Babylon contained a configuration of numbers in a square -- each of it's columns adding up to 111, and when all six totals from the columns are added up the total is 666.

In the Revelation prophetic numbers are always literal. The thing associated with it is always symbolic. For example:

1) 7 (literal) stars (symbolic)
2) 7 (literal) candlesticks (symbolic)
3) 4 (literal) beasts (symbolic)
4) 7 (literal) seals (symbolic)
5) 7 (literal) trumpets (symbolic)
6) 5 (literal) months (symbolic)
7) 7 (literal thunders (symbolic)
8) 1260 (literal) days (symbolic)

Mountain Man,

Well, indirectly it does explain the number. Here is how it does this. The amulets were based on numbers that add up to 666 and these were first done in Babylon as part of their belief in protecting themselves from the capricious nature of the gods, some good and some bad and you never knew just when they might strike you with bad luck. The important point is that this originated with Babylon.

Now, in Revelation 13, this number is brought back to view as part of the beast. But which beast is it talking about? The earth beast or the first beast?

The answer to that question is found in Revelation 17. There we have the woman who is labeled with the name Babylon. Most SDAs should know this means she is a symbol of the Catholic Church. BUT, and this is important, while its true that the name Babylon is a symbol of the Roman Church, its also a reference back to the original Babylon. We know from history that the Babylonians counted their gods and made up amulets to protect themselves from the capriciousness of the gods. Since the woman is Babylon, then this connects the number to her. Taking this back to Revelation 13, it tells us that the beast which represents the Roman Church is the one which has the number 666 attached to it. We know that is the first beast of Revelation 13. Many think its the second beast which has this number, and they're free to believe that if they want, but the evidence in the Bible and history points to the first beast.

Now, as to the number of his name and the name of the beast. You know, one very important rule to understand is that when a symbol is defined nearby, that definition should be used wherever it occurs so long as it fits. For example, we know from Daniel 2 that the gold head represents King Nebuchadnezzar because Daniel directly told Nebuchadnezzar that "you are the head of gold!"

Now, in Revelation 13:17 we find the word name used twice, once for the name of the beast and once for the number of his name. But this word name has a symbolic meaning, which everyone thinks is connected with the number that occurs in the next verse. But notice that the word name has no definition in verse 18, but it does have a definition in Rev. 14:1, where it clearly defines the word name to mean character. Putting this back into Rev. 13:17, it tells us that the ones who can buy or sell are those who have the "character" (name) of the beast or those who have the number of his "character" (name). To make this all clear, put this with Revelation 14:1 and you will find that you have a continuum with God's character at one end and the character of the beast at the other end. Those who have the character of the beast are allowed to buy and sell. Those who do not have the character of God but who also do not have the character of the beast can also buy and sell. The reason is that God counts them with the beast, as does the state also, or in other words, they are not like God's character, so they are counted as if they had the beast's character and thus they have the number of his character - they are judged as being of the same caliber - not loyal to God.

The problem with the idea that the name of the beast is Vicarius Filii Dei is that in Revelation 15:2 it says that those who are on the sea of glass includes those who have gotten the victory over the number of his name. How do you overcome the number 666? That number does NOT apply to ordinary people, but rather it applies to the beast. So, there is no way to overcome the title Vicarius Filii Dei or its number 666 as neither of these has any power over the ordinary person nor does either of these apply to the ordinary person But if the number of his name refers to overcoming character defects, then this statement makes perfect sense. Character is an issue that applies to EVERYRONE. Further, seeing it this way explains verse 16 in perfect harmony with verse 17 because in verse 16 it is character that makes the difference as to who goes along with the wishes of the beast or does not do that. And the same is true of verse 17, which harmonizes both verses together. Without this interpretation, you cannot harmonize these two verses together properly.

Wendall, if the origin of 666 is Babylonian worship and amulets, why does Jesus use it to describe the number of the name of the man of the beast?

Mountain Man,

I assume here that you believe that the number 666 is the number of his name. If so, could you please refer me to the verse which says that the number 666 is the number of his name? If not, then perhaps I do not correctly understand your question.

"The number of the beast" and "the number of his name" and "the number of a man" and "his number" are clearly the same "number". That number is "Six hundred threescore and six." It is the number of the name of the man of the beast.


"The mark of his name" and "the number of his name" are clearly the same "name". The "name" is "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." The "mark" and the "name" and the "number" are somehow connected to the traits and attributes written upon her forehead.

Mountain Man,

Well, as I said before, the word name is defined to represent character. This tells you that in verse 17, the name of the beast refers to having the character of the beast and the number of his name refers to being judged as having the beast's character because they do not have God's character.

This defines the number of his name to be something other than 666. The connection to the attributes of the woman are that she is the church and the king she contains, the popes, have a character that is the character of the beast. At the end, those who support the beast have the beast's character. Those who go along with the requirements of the beast in order that they may buy and sell, and do so even though they don't necessarily agree with the beast's objectives or actions, are numbered with the beast, or in other words, they have the number of his name (meaning they are judged to have the character of the beast because of their failure to have God's character - they don't have the beast's character, but they also don't have God's character so they are judged to be with the beast anyway). Its all about judgment as to character in Revelation 13:16-17 and Revelation 14:1. The same is true for Revelation 14:11,15:2, and 17:5. In Rev. 17:5, the woman is Babylon, which clearly tells us that she is symbolized by the original Babylon, though she is here called Mystery Babylon. In the original Babylon, the city name means "gate of God", which portrays the idea that the Catholic Church claims to have control of access to God. You have to go through them to have salvation. They do claim this, you know. But that is blasphemy for it is a claim to be in the same position as Jesus.

It all boils down to an evaluation by God of a person's character.

ProdigalOne wrote;

"I guess I'm not the first to notice the similarity.

You are right, it is six hundred threescore and six. I was just looking at it as the number six being the day humans were created, and being one less than seven, just short of perfection or completeness. Why 666, why not just 6, if it is "the number of a man".
Visually, it looks like three sixes. With three systems of evil: Dragon, Beast, False Prophet, it seems as though there ought to be a connection.

Just something that occurred to me. I wondered what others thought about it."

Blessings ProdigalOne,

I had not thought of the three sixes separately either, but it does make sense. It is something I will try to keep an eye out for to see how many connections can be made.

Wendell, thank you for sharing. Character is everything. In judgment it decides our eternal destiny. To have the name and number of the beast implies compromise. Somewhere along the line fundamental truths were abandoned. Lies were believed until they seem right and true. Drunk with the wine of Babylon. Still not certain how "six hundred three score and six" fits. Sort of suspect it is not crucial to know now. When it matters most Jesus will make it clear. We can trust Him.

Mountain Man,

You are welcome.

That the number of his name and the name of the beast are references to character measurements is not generally understood by SDAs, but it fits very precisely with the ideas presented in Rev. 13:16 and 14:1 and it fits nicely with the way Ellen White indicates that character is the deciding element when these events take place. Adventists tend to look to the number of the beast, 666, and somehow or another apply that number in some roundabout way to everyone else. But the context of the word name meaning character negates doing that. The number 666 itself applies only to the beast, not to everyone else.

As for how the number 666 fits in, well, you know my thoughts on that one, so I'll not reiterate it in this post.

Yes, it is the number of the beast and everyone who has it. Having it doesn't, of course, transform them into it or into the beast - just like having the name or the mark doesn't transform them into a name or a mark. Although they assimilate the traits and characteristics symbolized by the mark, name, and number of the beast they remain themselves, that is, they do not become the beast or the man of the beast.

". . . no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name . . . Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number Six hundred threescore six."

You are taking Esaiah 2 out of context and reading into it what you want it to say by focussing on some text while ignoring what it actually says in the context. That's deceptive.

Verse 1 specifies it is a prophecy concerning Jerusalem and Judah.
Verse 2 - 5 is a vision of the futur of the Kingdom of God established on earth(Dan 2:35; Dan 7; Rev 20:5; 5:10)) :
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Mountain is symbolic of a kingdom. Hills are smaller kingdom. Verse 2 says the Kingdom of God will be establish above all other kingdoms.
v. 6-9 : is a rebuke to Judah for abandoning the people of OLD Jerusalem while being interested in money, power, and their idols.
v.10-22 : is a call & prophecy to return to the "rock"(Jesus).
v. 11-17 The Lord says He will bow-humble down every man.
v.18 the Lord said He will destroy every idols.
v.19-21 When the Lord will do v.11-17 and 18, man will hide in the cleft of the Rock(Jesus).
v.20 says man will cast out their idols and money and hide in the cleft.


That's not true at all. V. 2 and the context contradics what you are saying. Read it again but this time by laying your heart idols(teachings of man or your personal interpretation) aside to really seek what the Lord is saying in Isaiah 2.