Modern Prophecies to Consider

While some in Adventism are awake to the times, in general the church is rapidly losing its prophetic understanding. Six weeks ago I talked to a pastor in Virginia who had retired last year. He told me he took an early retirement because his conference and union were so enmeshed in the Emerging Church movement that he couldn't be a part of it any longer.

The good news is that at the same time this is going on the Lord is raising up an army of Spirit-filled Sabbath-keeping non-Adventists who fully believe in the current application of the prophecies. There is general agreement among them that 2015 is a significant year prophetically because it's a Jubilee. They also agree that the seals, thunders, and trumpets are either immanent or underway in some degree but that the Lord will turn up the heat exponentially shortly. Here's a link to one site where some of them congregate. http://z3news.com/w/. They are not consciously aware that they are a prophetic movement but in substance, that is what they are.

To give an overview, I'll summarize what they say the Lord is telling them through scripture and prophecy to expect:

1. An economic collapse will come in stages starting not later than February 2016 with the market taking a number of blows until it reaches historic lows in the fall of 2016. (I wouldn't bank on this but because they are generally true to scripture I'll not be surprised if this prophecy is truly from the Lord. The same with the remaining six.)

2. Heightened social disorder and tensions in America will appear at the same time the economic collapse begins in February 2016 or earlier . This is the start of thousands of American cities burning.

3. Rioting will be a major cause of the urban destruction but foreign missiles and earthquakes and natural disaster such as eruptions and asteroid strikes will also be major causes.

4. World War III will start with America and Russia and China being the major players which will result in many American cities being destroyed by nuclear missiles launched from submarines off the coastal USA. They predict Chinese and Russian invasions. There is no definite time frame for this I'm aware of but one man claims the Lord showed him that an Asian missile from North Korea I think would be launched December 3, 2015. Some think the Lord will allow the US to intercept this one.

5. All of the above leads to famine and pandemics and, over time, depopulation and desolation, but as the population globally begins to shrink God will see to it that his people are given not only food but major resources to advance the gospel.

6. The visible church will go underground but become all the more effective by assuming business roles that will be covers for evangelism and that these businesses will be remarkably successful.

7. They are saying that all of this will reveal hearts as the mark of the beast is enforced; That the purified church will rise to the occasion as Holy Spirit is poured out. They urge that if you want to be ready, you have to learn now to walk by faith in the Spirit and be His hands and feet today doing good and reaching out to the lost now so that you know how to act then.

8. They teach the essence of the sanctuary doctrine; their focus is entering by faith into the Most Holy Place for cleansing and atonement and power for complete victory over sin!

Praise the Lord! The stones are crying out. Living stones that are true to the light they have. How should Adventists respond? Should we tell them to be quiet and that no one is allowed to prophesy post Ellen White? Or should we praise God.

And if December 3 does not pan out, then what, a revision? And if February 2016 does not pan out, then what, a revision? And if the fall of 2016 does not pan out, then what? And if December 3 does pan out, does that prove it was from the LORD? Can the devil not make all these things happen and even foretell their happening? Is all of this really necessary? What is THE MESSAGE that we are to give to the world?

It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. {COL 415.3}

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isaiah 40:9,10. {COL 415.4}

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them. {COL 415.5}

That is the message, and it will not fail.

I looked at them. They are pretty mundane, the usual alarmist solemnity: war, pestilence and mayhem. And the ever soon WW3, scaremongering about the powers that be. What exactly is the point in regurgitating the Bible with a modern spin without insight or meaning? It's as if God delights in violence and fear. They are false prophets, and I'm not afraid of them at all. (Deut. 18:22)

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These Sabbatarians are giving the message that we've been commissioned to give, the good news. I gave some of their prophecies as something to consider, but the focus of their message is "Behold your God," just as you quote APL.

James, by that definition all of the prophets would be fear mongers. These folk aren't saying anything other than what the prophets and Christ himself has always said - repent because the day of the Lord is near. It's the gospel that Christ is at the door. What better news!

APL, I have a few reasons for posting this.

1) They could be right, so this is a heads up. What they are saying just recently is very specific and is not far off and if true will have a global impact because the American economy is the single biggest factor in driving the global economy. These events - social upheaval and economic down turn - are supposedly only two months away.

2) To help us test the accuracy of their prophecies.

3) To help test the source. If they are precisely fulfilled and those giving them meet the other tests of scripture, I'd be more inclined to listen to both their predictions and messages.

4) To promote repentance.

5) To draw attention to the current and future application of the prophecies. Orthodox Adventism relegates most apocalyptic prophecy to history whereas the scriptures and Ellen White and these modern prophets are in agreement that the end-time prophecies apply to the end times.

Well, why not study the prophecies in the Bible? It seems those on z3 have given Satan an easy way into their hearts!

"The could be right?" Could be? Is that reassuring? And "is not far off", as I said, lets say nothing happens, then what? Maybe they will be right next time, so "heads up!"And if they are inaccurate, then make they will be next time, so "heads up!" Again, can not Satan duplication these things? How will tell the difference.How? Scared straight? Where does repentance come from? Only from God. We cannot repent on our own. So you have concluded that they are prophets. Interesting.

I found it "interesting" that they made a big deal about 2 cows being born with the number "7" on their head as if this was a very important sign. Like seeing the virgin Mary in a piece of toast. Is that where we should be looking for signs?

I find these statements very interesting Brother Mark because I mentioned to you in an email over a year ago and 6 months ago I believe, that Revelation 17 says the seventh papal king since the title "king" was given back to the pope, retired on the anniversary of the signing of the Lateran Treaty, and lightning struck St Peter's Basilica and I am starting to believe that this was the starting point of 3 1/2 years 'til he dies, and now you and your friends have a similar message but connected to the results to look for instead of the sign/ starting point. You go way out on a limb there. Those dreams you linked to are not from God.

The prophecy in Rev 17 says the seventh king "must remain a little while" (ESV) and Jesus said in John 7:33, 12:35, 13:33 & 16:16 that His ministry would be a "little while" which indicates a definite time of 3 and 1/2 years, as His ministry was predicted and fulfilled on time.

If you look at all of those quotes in John (7,12,13 & 16) it is quite profound the mysteries involved. John 16 has many end time elements, including "they will put you out of the synagogues" and "But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them." Also He talks about the Comforter coming (early and latter rain). But the most intriguing element to chapter 16 is when He told them in verse 16 "A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. 17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?"

This prophecy has two elements to it, two time frames; the early and latter rain. This is an obvious reference to the 3 1/2 years of His ministry til His death, and the time till the Early Rain, but also the end of probation and the testing time that comes before the second coming. Then he answers their question about the riddle...

"Truly, truly,(emphatically) I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice (like the three and a half years of the French Revolution; the slaying of the two witnesses/ when they cry Peace and safety). You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come."

That is an obvious reference to the birth of the 144,000 as Revelation 12:1-6 alludes to in a secondary sense after the birth of Christ, the man child. The 144,000 are the remnant of the seed.

Then He says in verse John 16:25 “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father."

Benedict XVI retired on Feb 11, (same month you are espousing) 2013. Three and a half years later would be August 11, 2016. Not February like you guys are saying. The fact that Benedict XVI said he had a "mystical experience" which told him to retire on the anniversary of the signing of the Lateran Treaty, then lightning struck the Basilica, had very profound elements that God illustrate to me that day. He gives me these things so when the time comes I will recognize the fulfillment. I am starting to believe from what God showed me that the lightning strike was a starting point till the death of the seventh king who "MUST REMAIN a short time".

Revelation 12:1-6 says that after the BIRTH of the the 144,000 "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. But isn't it interesting that Luke 10:18 says “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." And Benedict was told to retire on the anniversary of when the popes became kings again and lightning struck the basilica?

Every one of the previous popes length of life were dependent on God. So this comprehension would not be connected to the TIME of Daniels and Revelations time prophecies. Time shall be NO MORE connected to those prophecies, but must still fall in the right places after the prophecies before them are fulfilled. All in their place.

There are several references to Revelation 12:17 being fulfilled in the 144,000.



The bridge the angel makes in Revelation 10:1-6 with his right foot on the sea and left foot on the earth is the bridge of time that God permitted for the development of the Image to the beast in America from 1929 till the sixth king, JPII, who reestablished the Jesuits to Rome in 1981, also reestablished the office of the Inquisition where Benedict XVI (the seventh) came onto the scene. Then right before he died JPII brought Bergoglio to Rome, making him a Cardinal in 2001, who almost succeeded Pope JPII back then. Now Bergoglio the Jesuit, was Pope Francis almost 12 years to the day after the election of Benedict XVI. The eighth king came from "Out of" the seven hills of Rome and is the "beast that was" restored.

I have not been told to proclaim some of this as fact yet, but I am not discouraged when praying either and everything else is solid in the Spirit. If these things are fulfilled this way then imagine the impact on being able to say this is fulfilled to the world. There are certain things I need verification on first, but some here will accuse me of time setting.

Brother Mark, please be careful talking like you have the prophetic gift. I care for you, but you do not yet have that gift as you claim. Peace.

Correction; the bridge the angel makes standing between the sea and the earth begins in 1844, but includes the time frame of the establishment of the Image to the beast. ending when the seventh king Benedict 16 retires, beginning the 3 1/2 years.

I agree. The calves with the "7" on their heads should be questioned. Many though are biased against modern prophecy to the point that no amount of evidence will persuade them. We want hearts that are open to the evidence regardless of the "unusual" sources God may use. History is repeating. The gentile Magi were more knowledgeable of the prophecies and in tune with the living prophetic gift than God's people.

Here's a link to a paper I wrote inviting investigation into how Ellen White applied end-time prophecy.

Thanks for sharing this and the link of this group.

I applaud anyone who enters the Pentecost level of faith where we learn to hear the Holy Spirit and follow Him intead of our own voice that is carnal and cannot understand spiritual things(1Cor 2:14). The "natural man" is the one that needs to be stoned and tells us to follow strange gods that we have not known before(Deut 13:2)(see Post#178533).

The thing about this Pentecost level of faith -- it is a LEARNING stage where it is very natural and part of the process to make mistakes. It is tru our mistakes thst often we learn the most. We have to understand this and extend our support to our brothers and sisters and not be like the Israelites of Old or the Jews who were quick to stone any "false" prophets because of their own lack of not being able to hear the Holy Spirit for themselves for not entering that Pentecost level of faith.

So I can see that many who posts in that sites, are learning to hear like any others -- meaning that what they have expressed in their own words a) may not be the word of the Lord by adding their own interpretation of what they saw and heard. and b)not fully understanding what the Lord is doing for they are just a young learner.

This is fine and part of the learning process. These people needs to be praised and encouraged to continue their learning walk with the Spirit. I'm sure there are good gems from them to be retrieved. However, you need the Holy Spirit yourself to filter out all the learning mistakes they are doing and only extract what is coming from Him.

I view the purpose of this stage and the prophetic messages given to them as the Lord wants us to excersice ourself(the body) hearing His voice by testing all things by which as a result we gather some oil for our lamp before His coming. So we shouldn't be afraid and we are to take our Christian Duty seriously in testing all things with the Holy Spirit according to Deut 13, Deut 18, Is 8:20 and other scriptures.

Concerning, America being in the receiving ends of woes -- I do expect this to happen also. It's been like 10 years the Lord send Jonathan Cahn to give us this warning.

I do not believe that it will come from China or Russia; but rather from Mystery Babylon's next move as they no longer can bring havoc in the Middle East anymore since Russia last move in bringing in the S400 that can bring down any aircrafts within 250 miles of radius. (see Post#178547)

Also I expect some natural disasters coming from the Lord to shake some sense into us.

As far as my understanding goes, there's ony 1+ year left (see Post #161945) before Mystery Babylon will be fully destroyed. I expect this last year will be the most significant up 'till now.

The Magi had more to go on than a "7" on the face of a cow. And so do we when we study Daniel and Revelation.

EGW writes: When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. {TM 114.4} Why, because they will then be scared to death and have a forced repentance? No. Because they will see the true non-violent character of a God we can love.

That quote is one of my favorites. I hope you have a look at my paper because the main purpose is to show how Ellen White encourages the study for these books from a fresh, current perspective.

I'll have a look James at the "little while" phrase. That's worth checking into.

I think you may have me confused with someone else regarding February being the start of 3.5 years. I don't think that and I wasn't aware that anyone on the Z3 site was promoting that or on any other site. Your post is the first I've heard of it as far as I know.

Btw, I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet. If you're part of the remnant you will understand prophecy and be part of a prophetic movement.

Elle, I'm still cogitating on your comments. Interesting.

Such as the number "7" on cows? And what if all these predictions you list don't come true? Reject them and look to the next sensational thing?

God desires the light found in the books of Daniel and Revelation to be presented in clear lines. It is painful to think of the many cheap theories picked up and presented to the people by ignorant, unprepared teachers. Those who present their human tests and the nonsensical ideas they have concocted in their own minds, show the character of the goods in their treasure house. They have laid in store shoddy material. Their great desire is to make a sensation. {1MR 62.3} (read the whole chapter)

What?

"Lead the minds of the youth from truth to truth, up higher and higher, showing them how scripture interprets scripture, one passage being the key to other passages. Thus the Scripture itself will be the educating power, holding the thoughts in captivity to Christ.—Letter 27a, 1892. {Ev 581.1}

where does the bible say that two calves having 7's on the heads have anything to do with scripture and are saying you are like the Magi? WOW! You need help.

You're aware Elle that your view of learning how to prophesy is unorthodox? In fact, the idea of learning to prophesy was so foreign to me that I almost dismissed it immediately. But then I thought maybe I should look at that idea more carefully. For one thing, like you said, those who get these revelations initially may not be able to tell the difference between their imagination and a revelation. On the Z3 site for example, it's common for the person sharing their dream or vision to give a caution that they aren't sure it's from the Lord and directing people to prayer and the scriptures. That's a good sign and healthy. I think James has the same struggle here on Maritime. A lot of what he writes in his blogs is inspiring but at times he mistakes impressions for inspiration and is offended when we doubt some of his material and/or thinks he's being persecuted because he's not always believed.

I fully believe James has had some direct revelations from the Lord. His conversion story sounds authentic and some other things - just not everything. It's not that anyone here is intentionally trying to offend or persecute this brother who we should love and respect. It's that each one of us has a God-given responsibility to compare the revelation of a peer with scripture.

Mark,

You're not making sense. I haven't seen or heard anything remotely legitimate.

Maybe, you can take the time and truly understand Daniel 7 and learn that these other claims aren't worth the time.

"Those teachers who have not a progressive religious experience, who are not learning daily lessons in the school of Christ, that they may be examples to the flock, but who accept their wages as the main consideration, are not fit for the solemn position they occupy. “Take heed therefore unto yourselves,” the word of God declares, “and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.” “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind.” Acts 20:28; 1 Peter 5:2. These words are spoken to the teachers in all our schools, which are established, as God designed they should be, after the example of the schools of the prophets, to impart knowledge of a high order, not mingling dross with the silver. But false ideas and unsound practices are leavening that which should ever be kept pure, institutions in which the love and fear of God should ever be first. {CT 281.3}

Our church has become so enamored with their own agenda there is very little of the Spirit they hear. That is why God is circumventing their process and bringing in others who have learned DIRECTLY from Him instead of the errors of their peers.

Have you ever made a recording of a recording of a recording? What happens is the signal degrades till the flaws are amplified over and over.

God's bible is fresh, but the putting away of the Spirit of Prophecy has hindered the work. Instead of dealing with issues our God told us to deal with through His servant Ellen White, they have focused on psychology and earthly pursuits.

Where in the Spirit of Prophecy does it say a pastor gets a free house and $65,000 a year? Or free schooling for their children when others are put out of the schools for not making the multi thousand dollar payments? Only the rich get a Seventh Day Adventist schooling?

The school of the prophets is for those who listen to the word above anything. But even in the days of Jesus they had been stagnated and He as a child could share more truth than they could bear. Was Jesus just more gifted? Or was this because of confidence in the word of God and the Spirit who wrote those words?

When a child prays God hears them. Not because of their knowledge but because of their faith.

Faith is essential to learning in the Spirit.

Some have greater faith than others and their lives should be lifted up as an example and encouraged. I was so excited to be told by God that He loves me and He wants me to learn under His guidance, then I came and shared my experience and was immediately shot down by every leader I met in the church. WHY?

Just because I claimed that GOD had lead me to the Sabbath truth and the SDA church, they could not take credit. They could not reign me into their line of thinking. They refused to baptize me for over a year, when other people who went through a two week Leo Schreven seminar who were still smoking and drinking were baptized right then. On the seventh day of my fast when God showed me the Sabbath truth and I heard His voice tell me to join the SDA church I was given total victory over drugs and alcohol like a gift through faith, and I left what I was being groomed for, a multi million dollar job of rock musician/ recording artist/ sound engineer. Most of the 55 new members of the Fairbanks SDA church who were baptized the same day God taught me about the Sabbath continued doing the same things in their lives they had before claiming the title SDA, making no change, yet some were made deaconesses and deacons in their first month being baptized, and I was put out of the congregation because God told me to contend with their desire to change the church and ordain women elders.

I can tell you how God thinks on this if anyone is interested. But very few are. This is a testimony of why there are no schools of the prophets any more. When prophecy is ignored what makes them think they are working for God?

"The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. “Where there is no vision, the people perish” (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God’s remnant people in the true testimony.—Selected Messages 1:48 (1890). {LDE 177.5}

I love the Spirit of Prophecy and scripture and I am blessed for it, to give to others, but very few want to learn. Everyone seems to have their own opinions of what this verse means or that. No unity in knowledge of the truth.

There has not been even one time that God has shown me something that I could not find total support for in the Spirit of Prophecy, yet even my closest brothers in the church find something to argue with.

I am not perfect, but the God who teaches me with no one else involved IS perfect. He knows what He meant when He wrote those words through the prophets and He shows me directly. Then I present it faithfully and people fall all over themselves to try to hurt me or challenge the message. So much so that I have wanted to be rid of the church many times. That is my flaw. I am a son of thunder. I do not revel in it.

But my God encourages me to stay, even without a place to congregate (which makes me very sad). He tells me to continue to pay tithe and offering on everything He gives, to a church that not one person has tried to contact me from in over 6 years.

How many of you could endure that much? My wonderful wife, the miracle of miracles in my life has seen it all. God led her right to me. She supports everything yet the church that we were married in has not even contacted her in 6 years. They sent a police officer to tell us not to come to the Andover church any more because I stood up against a lesbian elder. How many of you would still be desiring to be part of this church?


I am blessed because I have not given up hope or faith in God. I will be victorious and those who persecuted me will fall by the side. EVERY SINGLE PERSON who abused me have left the church. No longer calling themselves SDA.

I fear for them and pray. ***** STAFF EDIT *****

I think you're on the wrong thread. I have a thread on Daniel 7 in the Private Forums sections. Is that why I'm not making sense? But now that you're here, did you look at my paper (see the above link) on Ellen White's application of most of Daniel and Revelation to the future? I'd be interested in your comments/thoughts.

(bold emphasis mine)

I know you have another thread on Daniel 7. That is why I mentioned it.

You see, if we stick to that thread and learn those lessons in understanding Bible prophecy, I think that will clear up a lot of the confusion in this thread.

But, I'll read that link when I find it.

Blessings Mark,

The writer of this document errors in his understanding as well.

For instance, he quotes Sister White as saying;

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {14MR 287.1}

Now, here is the understanding rendered;

"This statement is one of a group of similar statements where Ellen White makes a future application to the trumpets and seals of Revelation." (bold emphasis mine)

First of all, the seals are not even mentioned. The Ellen White quote mentions trumpets and vials. The vials are the plagues which are still future, if you are talking about the seven last plagues in Revelation.

As far as the trumpets go, there are other trumpets other than those seven trumpets in Revelation. For instance; There is the Trump of God in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. There are also plagues other than the seven last plagues of Revelation.

So, I don't see the confusion. But, I do see a lot of misunderstanding.

Maybe Mark, you could comment on the article you linked to.

Yes, I’m aware – but really it’s the Lord that is unorthodox :+) His thoughts are not like our thoughts (Is 55:8,9). Often His thoughts and ways are unorthodox to our pre-conceived ideas and our limited understanding of the divine plan.

To comment on “learning to prophesy” somehow we limit our definition of prophesy with forecasting or understanding what is to come in the future. Jesus said about John the Baptist to be the greatest prophet ever born (Lk 7:28) yet he never gave any prediction. He was just 6 months older than Jesus and his brief ministry was to prepare the way for Jesus and bare witness of Him. I believe that John’s prophetic greatness that Jesus was praising lies in his ability to repeat only the word of God as he received it without adding or subtracting to it and only do what he saw the Father do. Basically John walked as Jesus walked. We all know we are called to walk as Jesus who – cease (the proper definition of Sabbath) from all [carnal]speech and work by only saying what He heard the Father say, and by only doing what He saw the Father do. This is what I believe what we need to develop while we “learn to prophesy” – then all our speech and all our actions will be the Lord’s words and actions and in essence is “prophesy” because it is not our own. However, this is highly dependant on our ability to hear our Father’s voice clearly and differentiate it from our own voice. That’s where the great difficulty lies as you pointed out. I’ve been in this learning process for the past 7 years by which some tools the Lord has provided helps us; despite much can only be learned via life experiences.

I believe our biggest hindrance in hearing correctly the Lord is our heart’s idols. Heart’s idols are teachings of men or our pre-conceived ideas : of the Lord’s character, what is His ways, how He judges, what is his intentions behind His laws, what constitute His plan of salvation, what is His will, and etc. Heart’s idols distort everything twisting the pure “Word of God” whether if His word comes from our dreams or visions, hearing His voice when He talks to us, from reading scripture, or from life experiences. Heart idols make us blind.

Our first lesson to learn is to put these heart idols aside for the Lord warns us if we come to Him with heart’s idols that – “I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols” (Ezek 14:3,4). This goes contrary to what our Church “orthodox” teachings. No, this text does not say the Lord is going to correct us with the truth; but the very opposite -- He will answer us according to the multitude of our heart idols. I think this means we will see or read everything thru the eye glasses of our idols and we will find support for them almost everywhere and our heart’s idols will be magnified. In the same sense when the Israelites despised the manna and wanted to eat flesh food – well he will give us “flesh” – fleshy teachings of men until it gets us sick. This is a vevy serious warning that we shouldn’t take lightly. So I think any sons-of-God-in-training-during-Pentecost’s-growth-level-of-faith must learn (which includes any prophets in training) to set aside our heart idols. I don’t think the Lord is asking that we bring down those heart idols; but only to set them aside. In another word, to acknowledge that our understanding is limited, shallow, and most likely with errors of some sort. Any interpretation of any Word received or of scriptures must be provided by the Holy Spirit.

We all have heart idols which I view is the “leavened” in us; thus we do not see Him yet face to face. My view is those heart-idols comes down in proportion to what He personally reveal to us as we learn more of His truth, His ways, and His mind. That’s the whole essence of the purpose of Pentecost. Pentecost is a “leavened” feast because the offering was two leavened loaves (Lev 23:17) which represents us who still have heart idols(=sin). It only becomes an acceptable offering to the Lord if the TWO loaves are “baked” in the fire which represents the Holy Spirit. Why TWO loaves? This probably points to the law of double witness to establish any truth on earth. The law of double witness is a tool the Lord uses to speaks/confirms things to us.


Yes that is very good and very healthy. They did us right to say that and lawfully promoting that we go to the Holy Spirit.

Concerning what I have highlighted above, the Lord did provide us with tools to help us distinguish which thoughts, revelation, or [spiritual] food are “clean” from those that are “unclean”. These are found in the food laws (Lev 11 & Deut 14). I will only briefly mention them but a more thorough study of all the food laws equips us with vital [spiritual] dietary principles for all sons of God in training which deserve our attention and meditation.

In brief, the first part of the law concerning which beast of the earth to eat teaches us the beasts that are “clean” must “chew the cud” and have “hoofs split in two”. In application, no [spiritual] food is considered clean unless the sons of God “chews their cud” (=ponder or meditate on it) and have it stand on two separate hoofs that have contact on the earth (=double witness to establish something on earth). Only the Holy Spirit can provide the necessary witnesses in some fashion to establish that this thought, or revelation, or what you heard preached, or your understanding of that text, or etc… is indeed a “clean” food.

This law also teaches us the manner in which to present [spiritual] food to others. We must always allow time for the hearer to “chew their cud” and ask the Lord for a double witness to establish the validity of the food that is being presented. If anyone insist that people must believe him without question or time, then he renders the food unclean, regardless of how true the food may be.

The problem is not always with the messenger presenting the food. If a person refuses to hear the Holy Spirit’s voice, then they are eating “unclean” foods because they accept what we say without the Holy Spirit’s double witness. In essence, they are eating our “flesh” instead of Christ’s “flesh”. Only the Holy Spirit can convert whatever come out of our mortal mouth into Christ’s flesh. This was Israel’s problem when they refuse to hear the word from the Holy Spirit at Mt. Sinai and sent Moses to hear on their behalf. (Ex 20:19) They erroneously thought that Moses' witness was sufficient and thus wanted to eat “unclean” [spiritual] foods in an unlawful manner.

Chewing the cud (=meditating) is as important as receiving a double witness in order to extract its full nutritional value and to turn it from “flesh” to spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can give us understanding so we can properly assimilate the [spiritual] food and make it part of us.

Both “chewing the cud” and receiving a double witness from the Holy Spirit are both required to render any food as “clean”. So allowing time to meditate and putting the people (or ourselves) in the hands of the Holy Spirit is essential in partaking of any [spiritual] food.


For sure, I do not doubt one bit that the Lord is talking to James and to you. For example, I perceived that the word you heard last spring was the Lord’s. I like how you quoted these to make a distinction from the remaining of what you wrote. The Lord gives us room to speculate or ask questions during our pondering of the meaning of what we heard or seen or felt as an impression as long as we do not treat these as Truths.

The seafood laws can help clarify how to handle speculation or our time of pondering or questioning a subject, or when we read secular information or scientific papers and etc. Often pieces of truths are mixes in the theories of men. In brief, the seafood laws helps us to stay safe while swimming in the sea of [theories of ] men (Rev 17:15) by which our own theories would be included in this category. The scales represents the armor of God (Eph 6:13-17) that protects us. The fins represents the guidance of the Holy Spirit who will lead the way thru the sea of the knowledge of men avoiding us to eat dung foods(teachings of men) and helping us to extract the gems that are His.

The bird food laws teaches us to avoid birds(=spirits) of prey because they are bloodthirsty. To me this means to avoid eating [spiritual] foods that is bloodthirsty in spirit or sharing [spiritual] foods with a bloodthirsty attitude & spirit. The purpose of blood is to atone (cover - intercede) for the sins of the world whereas those that uses [spiritual] foods to expose the sins of others by accusation and violence are in essence being “bloodthirsty”. The Lord is the mediator of the world, and we, the body of Christ, should be also having the same mind, heart and purpose. Interpretations, teachings, or our views have a spirit. These spirits needs to be tested also (1Jn 4:1).

I think in essence EJ Waggoner understood thia "bird food" law and applied this in all his studies and meditation of the Word after Christ gave him an “extra-Biblical revelation” of “Christ reconciling the world unto Himself”. After his personal revelation included in the quote below, if he couldn’t see this revelation [=spirit of the purpose of His blood] in any other text in the bible he was studying, then to him he didn’t understand it and refuse to teach it to anyone.

Another point worth considering, my understanding is the Lord does not give a revelation only to one person but likes to disperse revelation to many… the info is similar having parts that repeat while providing different pieces of the puzzles to each individuals so that we learn to depend on one another so to unite us and learn to function as a body even when it comes to revelation. I believe the Holy Spirit works at both levels: corporately and individually. For sure individuals and even corporate churches can be at different level of faith, nevertheless the Lord guides and speaks to all and we need to encourage this.

We need to be careful not to isolate ourselves or view ourselves separate from the body or greater than any individual including the unbelievers who have not yet entered into the Lord’s Kingdom. We are just not all at the same level of faith. Some has just recently entered Passover(babes), others have already crossed into Pentecost(teenagers) and are learning to hear and obey God’s voice, while some few others have entered into Tabernacle level of faith(mediators). All have to go thru the same path but at the Lord’s orchestrated different timing. That’s why in the law the Lord provided 3 harvests that depicts the different timings of readiness of each groups. This was always so and time constraint is not a factor for the Lord. We need to see everyone in the eyes and foreknowledge of the Lord.

Then we have different purposes – all working together in the plan of the Lord. For sure there’s many in the Church whom their holy work is to stone others, as strangely as it sounds. They rarely bring any legitimate argument or piece of revelation received for the body. Despite, they have their purposes and I understand that their work is needed and part of the Lord’s plan too. It doesn’t mean that the Lord isn’t going to put a word in their mouth for us to hear that in it will bring to us a revelation. So in essence the Lord can use them or anyone to prophesy without them having any notion that they are speaking for the Lord.

I personally like the forum to test things. I think it’s a great tool for us and especially a small forum like Maritime online. Those that does bring feedbacks that are Biblical and have weight on the subject at hand, I view them as “messengers” from the Lord to revise our thoughts so we can identify the “mistakes impression” from the inspired one. I now see that Prophets or “messengers” can comes in all forms and shapes and even from places or a time not expected. The Lord can speak thru many living things even a donkey. Even objects, events, songs, astral objects, appointed time, etc.. really their no limits for the Lord to convey a message.


I agree! That’s what I understand from Deut 13:1-5, Is 8:20 and 1Cor 3:11-15.

wow. just wow.

Great post Elle and well said. Your thoughts came shining through shimmering with an appealing French-Canadian aura. It was all a great read - John the Baptist, clean spiritual foods etc. Thanks for taking the time. I especially liked the thoughts below:



Yes we have to be open to the truth that even our worst enemies have. This was a major part of the genius of Abraham Lincoln's leadership. He learned volumes from his enemies and opponents and harnessed their good points in his cause. He was known for enlisting them in his administration.

It's not possible to do that - learn from those hostile to us - and at the same time be a scoffer. So I'm like you. I really appreciate this forum as a place to vet my ideas because regardless of the hostile reactions I sometimes get, I always learn something. My thanks to Daryl and team for providing the freedom of expression you find here over the last 15 years.

There is a down side to this. Some of those who aren't yet equipped to handle personal attacks, instead of bridling their tongues and keyboards, reply defensively and, sad to say, over the years I've seen the forum become a stumbling block to more than one or two.

Let me add one more thought about turning freedom of expression into a licence for thrusts and jabs. The low level of tolerance, love and courtesy that's displayed here so often on Maritime Online tends to give a casual observer the impression that this is the norm. And it is too often the norm here but it's not the norm of heaven and it's not the norm for other forums. For those who are open, I recommend having a look at the dialogues on Z3 News. It's open to the public. I can't remember if you have to register to post, but the norm there is love and respect. Check out the comments section following a typical blog. Meditate on the difference in spirits and the fact that these folk don't know nearly as much of the theory of the truth that we do. Salvation is of the "Jews" but once again, the Samaritans are outdoing us "Jews." Remember what Christ did to the fruitless fig tree? Brothers and Sisters, judgement starts with us. It's time to pray like Daniel did in chapter 9, starting with close examination of ourselves.

Freedom of speech and conscient for the Lord to guide us is what the reformation fought for. Probably at Z3news people at the forum learned the hard way to not stone others because they were stoned themselves for their "unorthodox" views. So they have repented because of a result of the great works of the stoners. Stoners and persecutioners are very important in the divine plan. Acording to the law -- these does a "most Holy work" for every thing they touch becomes holy. (very excellent study by which I don't remember where exactly the text is found right now).

I, myself, remember in my early years at the forums; I was also abusing others. It took lots of time(many years) for the Lord to bring me to repentance of that and also lots of time to learn to forive others. I'm "nice" today only because of the Lord's Holy work in sending stoners at me and opening up some scriptures to my mind. Today I do realize that without my stoners and without those that have persecuted me, I would be still stoning myself. I am very grateful for their work. I share the same sentiment as Joseph when he said to his brothers :

AV Gn 50:19 "And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God? 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive." Yeah they though evil in doing what they did to Joseph, however it is thanks to their great work that God was able to sanctify Joseph with it and prepare him for such position to save many. They "thought evil" however "God meant it for good". We need to see events, even the negatives one in the Lord's eyes and tru His great fabulous plan He has set up.

Yes I agree, judgment starts at the house of the Lord.

Good thing the Lord has a plan to bring down the rain to bring us into repentance. I don't believe, from experience, we can repent of our own without His careful work in preparing us to receive it.

Also, we need to keep in mind that it is the Lord who makes the blind, the deaf, and the dumb. and "AV Ex 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

In a similar way, the Lord has put Abraham asleep when he made His covenant known today as the "new covenant". This "putting Abraham asieep" event in itself is prophesy. We now see that He has also put His Church "asleep" because He has resolve to bring about His plan Himself. The new covenant is entirely dependant on His promise and not based on the ability of the "flesh".

The very few (a remnant) that is somewhat half awake still have no great understanding of what is going on overall. This is what my view of the Lord's good pleasure and His Sovereignty signature in the events of His plan -- so that at the end we will acknowledge it is the Lord that has saved us in all 3 levels(Passover=Justification, Pentecost=sanctification, and Tabernacle=glorification) of our spiritual walk.

I expect a very successful and very huge harvest before Jesus 2nd coming. I don't think the rain is going to make miracles by bringing anyone to "perfection" in by-passing any of the spiritual levels of growth. I think the rain will bring us all in the next level of spiritual growth depending on where we were located before it.

Also I expect some believers (hopefully not too many) that will be like Jonah -- angry that the Lord did not destroy the people and not impressed with the successful rate of the conversions. The reason why is given by Jesus' parable of the evil servant whose big debt was forgiven by the King but didn't want to extend the same forgiveness to others. In the story of Jonah, he from the start didn't want the Lord to forgive the people of Ninevah. I think Ninevah represents the unbelievers of the World.

I view these events(the unforgiving attitude and poutting servant after the facts) as prophecy. I do hope that the fact that many believers will be poutting at the role of the coming events will help them see their own hearts and repent. Hopefully Johah did repent but the story doesn't say so and I don't know. We also don't know how things will play out once the latter rain falls and the effect of the "evil servants". But for sure I do expect that there will be some (mostly those the Lord caught beating of their fellow servants Luk 12:45) that will not repent and will be cast out of the house. However Jesus did says they will still have their portion [of inheritance], just not with the overcomers but with the unbelievers. (Luk 12:46)

I agree. There's a mystery here. On the one hand the Lord tells us to rend our hearts not our garments. We do have an essential role in repenting. On the other, it's equally clear in scripture that repentance is a divine gift of grace.

Taking your analogy of the Tabernacles level of faith, I have to say you're on to something important. I wouldn't want to leave any reader with the impression that we can expect the latter rain without receiving the early rain first: That is, we have to be at the latter rain level of spiritual growth before the latter rain can ripen us in the final stage of growth. But you're right that repentance is central at every stage including the very final stages of growth.

In addition to the prophetic significance of Abraham being given the covenant in his sleep, Isaiah and Daniel are also types of those who receive the covenant and final endowment of the Spirit. In both cases they are simultaneously impressed with their undone condition. Isaiah 6:5 and Daniel 10:8 Repentance is a prerequisite to our enlightenment. Our sense of need for the merits of Christ's righteousness and our appreciation for the sacrifice of Christ is directly proportional to our understanding of our undone and unworthy condition. And yet at the same time, the Father's infinite gift to us of His only Son underscores the value of the soul in heaven's eyes.

Mark, I did add the 3 first paragraphes and some minor corrections for clarification while you were responding. Sorry about that.

I agree with you above. It's a good way to put it and I often forget that the "early rain" is the equivalence of entering the Pentecost level of faith. Tx for bringing this up and is a good way to explain it.



I had viewed the “deep sleep” that Abraham experienced in Gen 15:12 very differently than those that had falling down as dead in the presence of the Lord by Daniel 8:18 and 10:8,9 and with John in Rev 1:17. I do agree with your observation of Daniel, Ezekiel, and I would add John that seeing the glory of God like that when they are still in a “corrupt and mortal” body, gives us the sense of being “undone and unworthy”. However, I had view Abraham “deep sleep” as being totally different were I was thinking he was unaware whereas, I was reading Daniel and John “fell at his feet as dead” being conscious and awake. But after re-reading the texts in Gen 15:12, Abraham was aware as Daniel and John for scripture says “an horror of great darkness fell upon him” and in v. 13 the Lord spoke to Abraham. So I was wrong. Also the same Hebrew tadermah is used to described both Abraham and Daniel experience. Tadermah root word is radam that means “to stun, i.e. stupefy (with sleep or death).” Interestingly the same word is used in 1 Sam 26:12 when David snuck in the cave were King Saul and his soldiers “were all asleep; because a deep sleep (tadermah) from the Lord was fallen upon them". Then in Isaiah 29:10 concerning the corrupt leaders of the Church saying “For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep (tadermah)". So I was taking Abraham experience in the context of Isaiah 29:10 and 1 Sam 26:12 and not linking it to Daniel, Ezekiel or John experience.

I am very reluctant to say or view that there is two different application of the Tadermah word. I don’t view the Hebrew language as any other language that can carry multiple meanings in one word. I have the tendency to view Hebrew words carrying multiple meaning at once. For example, the word shama that means both at the same time “to hear” and “to obey”. One cannot obey without hearing, and vice versa. So shama means both these words; thus in our English translations of this words, hearing or obeying could be used interchangeably.

All this to say, well I need to go back to the drawing board with the Lord and chew on this more so He can reconciled all these texts. I haven’t attached the need of “repentance” or “undone condition” as you expressed to Abraham “deep sleep” experience. I was making a parallele with Abraham deep sleep as being blind and I think I am wrong in doing so. So I appreciate this input and the correction it brought to my thinking.

I do agree with what you say above that at each level of faith there’s a repentance stage (=dying of the flesh) that is symbolized by the breaking of the veil that separates each compartment of the temple. The way I express it that there’s 3 veils that needs to be ripped(=repentance) that allows us to enter to the next compartment(=level of faith) and get us a little closer in seeing the glory of God. So I do see the repentance connection that you are putting to Daniel, Ezekiel “deep sleep” with Abraham’s experience.

Elle, a friend sent me an email today saying we need to repent even if we're not conscious of any wrong doing. She's likely right. When Christ came preaching repentance there were many who felt no need. When Christ told his fellow citizens of Nazareth he came to set them free, they denied they were enslaved by sin. But their murderous reaction to his teaching provided the proof of their abject slavery to evil. If we're in that boat we have a few options. We can ignore Christ's testimony, we can attack the messenger or we can say yes, it's true. Even though we don't immediately see our corrupt nature we will eventually like Isaiah, Daniel and John did if we're at least willing to admit our need for deliverance.

I really appreciate your frank admission of being guilty of throwing stones. I still struggle with that, with bridling my tongue. I say, Lord help me to see the myriad of other ways I'm deficient in reflecting Christ.

That's a good point and it is well said and I agree with the above. Let's bring this a step further for the purpose to qualify it. Repent of what? or how do we repent? I don't like putting anyone on a spot. But for the sake of reflection, I don't believe that the answer is the list of dos and donts. Don't get me wrong, that list does help us to learn.

It's not much of an admission really, despite I am sorry and was guilty of it and still am to some extend. I brought it up for the goal to bring a tangible example of how the Lord works all things together -- in an attempt to show the Lord's purpose in having most believers as stoners as it has been the case since Adam. Only when we see the big picture and see the Lord's Sovereignty behind all things can we come to forgive ourself and our dear brothers and sisters like Joseph did.

My view is we all started at the same place(slaves of sin) and are on the same journey going thru the same learning-growing process. We were (and most still are) all vessels of destruction and in His appointed times set tru the Feasts' growing path He reshapes that lump, a little at a time, into a vessel of honor.

Of course, as you know, because of my view that the Lord is going to finish the work He started in all of us -- I see everyone(without any exception) ending up in the full glory and image of Jesus. This gives me a total different pair of eyeglasses than my brothers has who sincerely believes that 90%+ of the population will be annihilated. I'm not saying this to jab you or anyone reading this. Just pointing out the benefit in it and the power of it if what I believe is truly the gospel message that was preached.

That's what my point I was trying to make regarding the stoners two or three posts ago by quoting Ex 4:11. I see a huge implication of responsibility on the Lord when He said "Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?". Let me add to this list -- the stoners. I believe He hold Himself responsible by making someone blind : "AV Ex 21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake." If we believe He keeps His own laws and these are prophetic... then in this law He's saying that the blind servant that He is responsible for will be set free. That text doesn't say when. I believe at the latest they will be set free at the time of the Great Jubilee -- 43,000 years from now, if the prophetic applicatin equivalence of 1 year = 1000 years. I think that's plenty of time for the Lord to teach everyone righteousness after the Great White throne judgment. (Is 26:9..for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.)

It would be nice if the Lord could save every one. There's nothing He'd like more than that. I think you are more optimistic that scripture. . I'm guessing you think we'll have another chance after we die?

It is my understanding that our fate is sealed after death.

In other words, there isn't any second chance after death.

The thief on the cross who called out to Jesus in repentance will be with him in Paradise (Heaven), whereas the other thief who didn't will not be with Him in Paradise (Heaven).