Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?

Does the Bible teach that everybody is Saved, or that some are Saved?

Please back up your posts with relevant Bible texts.

I want to begin with John 3:16 quoted below:

This well known Bible verse is conditional on believing on Jesus to be saved.

I have heard discussions claiming "limited atonement" and so on.

John 3:16 is one text that states clearly that salvation is conditional upon Jesus. But, what does that mean? 2 Peter 3:9 clearly states that God doesn't want any to perish, but, that all would come to repentance! So, we learn that repentance is one such condition. And without repentance, we perish.

At this point, I believe we can say that Jesus has made this opportunity of repentance available to all mankind. If we repent based on what Jesus has done for us, we are saved. If we don't! We are lost.

Yes, we have in John 3:16 believe on Him, which would obviously include repentance in 2 Peter 3:9 quoted below:

This also tells me that unless everybody repents, there will be people who will be lost, as in not saved, which further tells me that everybody will not be saved.

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13-14

Few find the way to life; many find the way to destruction.

True everybody needs to believe on Jesus to be saved.

So this text doesn't say neither if everybody or some are saved. We need to go further in the Bible and see if it answer the following questions :

#1. How does an unbeliever come to believe?
#2. Does the Bible say everyone will end up believing?

I'll let others find the answer to these questions. I do have texts from these two questions that say everybody will be saved. Do you know which ones I'm referring to? Both can be found in the NT.

That leads to two questions -- What does the Bible say about:

1. how does a man comes to repentance?
2. Does salvation rest on whether or not a man repent?

How does Righteousness by Faith fit with this deduction?

Your last sentence-statement is your interpretation of the text. The "life" and "destruction" needs to be qualified and defined according to context and the grand plan of salvation. But before going there let's try to see what Jesus meant with the "narrow gate"


The Required Fruit to enter the Narrow Gate

The context of this verse is from v.12 to v.23 which Jesus teaches about what "men should do"(see v. 12) or in another word, the "fruits" that the Lord requires. The conclusive answer the Lord gave is in red & found in v. 23.

Mt 7:21 "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness".

In Luke 13:23-28 also talks about the narrow gate but it is applied about how the people could avoid the coming judgment. This judgment had two application:

1)in their current situation of the coming judgment on the nation of Judah before its destruction in 70 -135 AD as Jesus' teachings was the last warning the Lord was giving to the people

2)the judgment that comes at Jesus 2nd coming when He'll be separating His sheep from the goats.

And do notice that both of these judgment are placed on BELIEVERS and not the unbelievers. Jesus is not making a distinction between the believers and the unbelievers here, but rather because of their disobedience and lawless practices -- the BELIEVERS do not pass thru this narrow gate.

This broader application of this narrow gate that Jesus is referring to is the first resurrection which is reserved for the believers that are qualified to be part of the Melchisedek Priesthood that will rule with Jesus during the Millennium and beyond.

Narrow Gate is the 1st Resurrections, the Broader road is the 2nd

The law in Num 10 suggests that there’s two resurrections with the Lord telling Moses to make two trumpets. The blowing of one trumpet summoned the priests and leaders (Num 10:4); whereas two trumpets blown summoned the whole congregation(Num 10:3).

Rev 20:4-6 speaks of the first resurrection “And I saw the thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the soul of those who had been beheaded…who had not worshipped the beast…; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection;….they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ”

To me this text is saying that only the priests who are called to “ reign with Christ for a thousand years” are raised at the first resurrection. That is probably why Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 quoted above has “trumpet” in the singular form which the angel will blow. One trumpet blown summoned only the leaders (Num 10:4).

Whereas in John 5:28 talks about the 2nd resurrection where “ ALL who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds…, those who commited the evil deeds…” Paul identifies those in 1st resurrection in 1 Thes 4:16 as “the dead in Christ” whereas in the 2nd is described as : a) “ ALL who are in the tombs” (John 5:28); b) “the dead, the great and the small”(Rev 20:12); c) “ both the righteous and the wicked” in Acts 24:15.

My understanding is the first resurrection is a "restrictive resurrection-gate" that summons only the Leaders. Only a few will pass that "narrow gate". The other believers will be summon with the unbelievers at the 2nd resurrection which is a "broader resurrection-gate".

In your understanding is the "broader resurrection-gate" one that "leads to destruction"?

Yes -- "the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezk 18:4

Notice in the above text it specifies that it is the SOUL that must die, not the body.

Have you sinned Asygo? I did many times and I still find myself still sinning today. I need to die. I believe we all have sinned -- we all have to die. Paul says he dies daily... What kind of death Paul is talking about? What kind of destruction do you think the Lord is talking about in Matthew 7?

AV Mt 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction[apoleia], and many there be which go in thereat:

apoleia "ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal)."

I believe Paul was talking about the second death, a spiritual death -- the death of the soul, the death of the old man that is nailed to the cross that dies with Jesus, the death that the baptism represents. I believe it is a spiritual destruction of the soul that Jesus is talking about.

Why do you assume that Jesus is talking about a physical destruction? Do you have Biblical support that Jesus was talking about a physical or eternal destruction? I have many other Biblical support that Jesus talks about a spiritual destruction of the soul at many other places.

Don't get me wrong, thru the course of time many have died a physical death via national judgments. The Judgments of the Lord is another discussion that is important to have and I believe it is in accordance to His laws of judgment given to Moses.

Without sidetracking, we all know that Jesus said that this physical death is only a sleep and all(well most) mankind will resurrect(@ the 2nd resurection) for the "eternal[olam, age abiding] judgment".

Then Paul quotes Isaiah 45 in these words "AV Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

hmmmm...... Could it be possible that the Lord is able to bring everyone to repentance at the great white throne? Could it be possible that the lake of fire is the SECOND DEATH -- a spiritual death? The same death that Paul was talking about and potentially the destruction Jesus was referring to?

Jesus spoke of the narrow way "which leads to life, and there are few who find it." If everyone eventually repents and receives life, in what way is that "few"? That would be "all."

QUOTE=Elle: "Notice in the above text it specifies that it is the SOUL that must die, not the body."
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What is the soul?

The soul is the essence of the individual. People (and scripture also includes animals) have individuality, souls -- they think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character.

When a soul dies, the individual is no more.
Also a soul CANNOT live with out the body.
When the body dies, the soul is dead.

Now a body or object can live without a soul -- but it can't think, reason, choose, or have emotions -- it is a mere vegetable or plant. It has no character.


What does Paul mean when he says "I die daily"?
No, it does not mean the soul dies, or that the body dies daily. (That can't happen "daily" for once the body with the soul dies, it's dead) It's the CARNAL NATURE that must be denied on a daily bases. This involves a process of character transformation not character oblivion. The carnal "soul" is transformed into a "soul" that follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Dying to self means putting away our selfishness, -- again character transformation not character oblivion.



If, as you say, the second death is the death of the soul, that would mean God gathers the wicked nations of people before his white throne and kills their souls but leaves their bodies alive.

What is left?
A bunch of mindless bodies, robots, who bow mindlessly before His throne for eternity.

Is that what God wants?

I don't think so --
He wants a people who CHOOSE to love Him (with mind and emotions) and serve him as rational individuals.

First death is the lot of all people --
we see the "first death" in action every time we go to a funeral.
People will be raised from the "first death".
It is our choice as to which resurrection --
Some to everlasting life (those who chose Christ and life)
Others to everlasting destruction (those who rejected Christ and choose death)

The second death is the eternal death.
They have already died the "first death" are raised after the 1000 years and die again, this time for eternity.

Two basic resurrections--
Those raised in the first resurrection will never die again, the second death has no power over them.

Those raised in the second resurrection are subject to the second death.


FIRST DEATH
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order

FIRST RESURRECTION:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has everlasting life.
6:48 I am that bread of life....
6:54 Whoso eats my flesh, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power,

SECOND RESURRECTION


Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev. 20:13 death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

SECOND DEATH

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev. 20:14 This is the second death.
Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

21:8 The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.






Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

Don't the "believers that are qualified to be part of the Melchisedek Priesthood" also go through this experience? If so, that would mean they are also on the broad road that leads to destruction. Who is left on the narrow road that leads to life, which Jesus contrasts with those on the broad road?

Jesus says the following:

• I do not know you, where you are from
• Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.
• There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Did He say this to people who will live with Him eternally in the kingdom of God?

Yes, the narrow gate will give IMMORTALITY (life) to the overcomers at the first resurrection. All the rest will remain with their mortal clothing.


When do believers repent? Right at the beginning of our spiritual birth(=Passover) -- and then we continue to repent(spiritual death of the soul=mind) daily throughout our spiritual sanctification walk(=Pentacost). But do notice that we are still clothed with the mortal body. Right? We are not yet change -- right?

So why do you interpret that if someone repents at the great white throne that they will receive the IMMORTAL Robe(=Life) right away? It was not so for you, nor anyone else in the past. Everyone first had to pass thru the 3 stages of spiritual growth (Passover=righteousness by faith, Pentecost=learn to hear His voice and His laws, Tabernacle=learn to walk in His rest(His Sovereignty) and serve Him) before receiving the IMMORTAL Robe of Life.

They will repent, but do remember that at that time they will have received their court ruling for every unlawful works they have committed. According to the law & the NT, sin equates to a debt that is owed to their victim.

Daniel saw the Lord's throne & the wheels being on fire(Dan 7:9) and a stream(river) came out of it (Dan 7:10). Then in Deut 33:2 it says that His law is a "fiery law". We know that the Lord will judge the people with His law -- right? So the lake of fire that John saw in Rev 20 was a symbolic picture of after the court ruling. The fire(=law) that came out of the throne to judge the people ended up in a lake of fire that symbolized the execution of the sentence of the law and the baptism of fire of the Holy Spirit for whatever time it takes for these to pay their debt and learn righteousness.

AV Isa 26:9 "...for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Yes, the Melchisedek Priesthood also goes through spiritual destruction and needs to die daily too. But they are the only ones that are trained and fully sanctified in their lifetime before they physically die. In another word, the Lord elected them FIRST and transform their "vessel of destruction" into a "vessel of honor" in their lifetime so they may become the FIRSTFRUIT of the remaining Harvests according to the Law. Most believers are not transform and end up dying as an "unfaithful servant" or as a "vessel of destruction".

This is told to us in Rom 9. Not everyone is trained like Jacob to become an overcomer -- a Melchisedek Priest. Esau was not. Prov 13:24 "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

Esau was a believer from Abraham & Isaac; but the Lord did not train him like he did for Jacob. However, Esau is as valuable in the plan, for the Lord used Esau to train Jacob. Without Esau, the Lord wouldn't of been able to train Jacob. "All work together for good".

Your question is lacking as it is built on some assumption that I pointed at other posts above. So I'll address the question in terms of being outside or inside the Kingdom.

In the Kingdom of God, there is a KING, LAWS, Land, and citizens.

Daniel 2:35 say " the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." The text says that little stone, first became a mountain implying that it grew to that size, and then that mountain grew to filled the whole earth. That stone and the mountain represents the Kingdom of God at Jesus 2nd coming when He and His Melchisedek Priest will rule the earth during the Millennium(Rev 5:10; 20:6 ). It will start small and grow until the Kingdom of God will cover the whole earth. Which implies that not everyone will be inside the Kingdom of God at Jesus 2nd coming and it might take the whole Millennium for all the nations of the earth to accept Jesus and enter the Kingdom.

AV Mic 4:1 . "But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

So my understanding is there were two application of the narrow door Mat 7 and Luk 13 : an emmediate and at the 2nd coming.

We have the history of what has happened to the emmediate application of this judgment that was towards the nation(House) of Judah. We know that they were CAST OUT of the Kingdom of God 40 years later after Jesus ministry. They were CAST OUT like Jesus had done previously with the House of Israel in 745 BC. Once Cast out, these Israelites and those Jews were disqualified to be CITISENZE and Leaders of the Abramic Blessings to the nations not because of some spiritual defects but because Israel refused the Lord Jehovah(Jesus) as their husband and Judah refused to accept Jesus as their King and as their Passover lamb -- both of these nations(Israel & Judah) were cast out of the HOUSE of God and lost their citizenship of His Kingdom based on that ground. In another word they found themselves on the outside of the Kingdom like all other nations --the Ethnos(=Gentiles). But they(the Jews & Israelites) still can re-enter the Kingdom today, right? Being CAST OUT doesn't equate you are eternally lost. That's a false assumption. It was not so for the nation of Israel, nor it was so for the nation of Judah. Then we have ample prophecies that says that [NATURAL] Israel will be restored and will be saved.

However, they all have to re-enter the Kingdom at the same level as like any other gentiles (ethnos) by one of the 12 gates, and accept Jesus as their King & Passover lamb, and go thru the next spiritual growth & training into Pentecost and Tabernacle.

But there were some Jews (and Israelites) that did not reject Jesus. Some of those were trained and became overcomers like Daniel, Ezekiel, and etc..., and others where not fully trained like Esau. Whatever if trained or not, what's important to note is that these were not CAST OUT of the Kingdom if they didn't reject Husband Jehovah and King Jesus.

I believe the same type of scenario will happen again at Jesus 2nd coming. Those that will find themselves totally outside the kingdom (the unbelievers and the blood-thirsty believers) will have to re-start their spiritual journey by breaking thru the first veil(=flesh = repentance = death) into the outer court= Passover level of faith, and move along the other level of faith and pass thru the other 2 veils(=more death) that separates each chambers and represents different levels of spiritual growth and faith.

However after the millennium at the 2nd resurrection perhaps the unfaithful believers might be split in two groups(the leaders vs. the pew warmers) or maybe they will all fall in one group. I'm don't know. I do know Jesus gives many parable about His judgment towards the unfaithful believers. There's the parable of them receiving some lashing, of their foundation of their works will be tested with fire, and etc... So the "unfaithful servants" receives a different judgment than the unbelievers and it is possible that after their(the unfaithful believers) judgment time is expired -- they might receive the IMMORTAL robe sometime after the 2nd resurrection. I don't know, nor do I think the Lord has reveal this as this revelation pertains to that AGE(olam & aion).

However, to my understanding there will be a harsher judgment for the abusive servants that will receive their rewards with the unbeliever(basically will be cast out) and will be thrown in the lake of fire. The lake of fire judgment goes until the end of Jubilee. The first Sabbath Millennium is the first weekly-Millennium Sabbath. Thus the end of the Great Jubilee is 7 x 7 Millenium = 49,000 years. It will be at the end of the Great Jubilee that the unbelievers and the abusive believers will receive their IMMORTAL Robe(life).

To wrap all of this with an observation. There is 3 Harvests in the law of Moses.

1st - Barley Harvest = Overcomers the Priest @ Jesus 2nd coming
2nd - Wheat Harvest = the Believers or congregation @ after the Millenium
3rd - Grape Harvest = the Unbelievers & abusive believers @ the Great Jubilee

All of these fruits make it at the Lord's table.

There is also the following Bible text:

This in conjunction with the other verses shows that our choice for salvation is only granted in this life, after which comes the judgment. Whatever choice we have made for or against the gift of salvation is sealed after we die.

This also shows that there is no second chance salvation after death.

Are you saying these people will be burning for 49,000 years as payment for their sins, then they will receive eternal life?

It is true that the soul(=mind) is the "essence" of the individual especially the "essence of the soulish individual" as the soul has usurp the authority of our spirit.

Do notice you characterize the soul as : "think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character." All of these are characteristics of the MIND. My understanding is the soul is basically the MIND. But it is not the whole person(body & spirit).

The Bible tells us in 1Thes 5:23 that we are Body, SOUL(=mind), and Spirit. It is the soul(reasoning and deduction and choice of the mind) that sins at the beginning with Adam & Eves. And sins still continues to take seeds first at the level of the mind(soul) before it manifest into an action from the body.


I disagree. When a soul(mind) repents and submits(=spiritual death = the 2nd death) to the Spirit, the persons still is around until his body decays into the natural death(=physical death = the 1st death).

I agree on the physical level --the physical brain[=body] needs to be functioning for the soul[mind] to exist. However there's two deaths like there's two births: the first being a physical death(or birth) and the second, a spiritual death(or birth).


I think we are saying the same thing -- the soul is the mind.




I never said the soul can live outside the body. Re-read my post and above.


The word "carnal" (sarkikos G4559) is related to the passion of the body like sex and appetite. There's only one text(Rom 8:7) in the KJV that sarkikos is translated as "carnal mind" but do note the word mind is not in the Greek translation. The carnal nature is relating to the flesh or lower level of our nature. Whereas the soul is relating to a higher level of our nature =the mind and not the body. Of course hunger or sex thoughts comes to our mind; but these are coming from signals from the body (hormonal or lack of glucose in our blood stream).

Look at the Greek word Psuche(G5590)transated as soul 58x, life 40x, mind 3x, heart 1x and Psuchekos(G5591 means soulish) translated as natural [man] or natural [body] 4x and sensual 2x.


There's no "carnal soul" in the Bible. Your mixing things together that is not defined as such.

One thing you haven't talked about is the spirit of man. The Bible tells us Man is a)Body, b)soul, and c)spirit. You have talk about the body(=that is carnal) and the soul(=mind), but no mention of man's spirit. But only mention of the Holy Spirit.

What I understand is the Holy Spirit via the SEED units with Man's spirit when they are begotten from above(1 Jo 3:9; Rom 8:16). When the Holy Spirit teaches us, He talks to our spirit. Our spirit is the highest level in us and is giving authority over the soul(mind). And the soul(mind) have authority over the body. So the order of the command of God goes first to our spirit, and our soul needs to submit to it and give it to the body that manifest it in a form of action.

The problem is the soul(mind) doesn't understand spiritual things.

AV 1C 2:14 "But the natural man[G5991 Psuchekos] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."

As far I have come to understand this, and let me be clear that I still do not have a firm grip on this, is the soul[mind] will always never understand spiritual things. The mind function is to analyse, put in order, classified, and etc.... but it is only our spirit that can understand spiritual things. So this death and submission of the soul to the spirit of man, is an only going thing. The order of authority of the spirit, soul, and body is the basic construction of man, and will stay as such forever and ever.


The transformation of character is not done by us but done by the Lord as He "puts my laws in their inward parts, and write it in their heart." (Jer 31:33) I still don't know what exactly this text means technically. Is the "inward parts" represents the body and "heart" represents the soul??? I don't know.


??? You made some assumption that I didn't say nor do I believe in.

The second death is a spiritual death that involves the mind[=soul] by submitting to the Lord commands and His leading via our spirit.

No, I said the fire is symbolic of the law. No, I never said there's a 42,000 years of literal burning (49,000 years total minus the 7,000 years that elapse at the time of the Great White throne Judgment). The total time of the payment for their sins depends on how much the total sums of their crimes amount to. Many will pay before the Great Jubilee will come. But for those that their debt are greater than what their 42,000 years can pay, the Jubilee law sets a limit of time for sin. At the Great Jubilee, all debts are cancelled(forgiven) and all are restored back to their inheritance = glorified body. Those that will pay before the great Jubilee comes, will have to wait for the time of the Great Jubilee to be changed into their IMMORTAL Robe.

Just like all the overcomers throughout history had to wait for the time of the 1st ressurection to be changed as a corporate body into their IMMORTAL Robe. And I'm assuming it will be the same for the rest of the believers resurrected after the Millenium. I don't know when, but sometime after their "lashing" period of time is completed and their time for them to go thru their Pentecost and Tabernacle growth, then they will all be changed together. My understanding from the first harvest and from the law; is these 3 harvests time are corporate events.

Sorry my explanation wasn't clear to you, but I meant the lake of fire is symbolic. I'm not going to repeat everything I said in that post but basically that the lake of fire symbolically represents the following:

a)the execution of the sentence of the law that was given at the great white thron. The Great white throne is the judgment of all great & small, according to their deeds. The lake of fire is what happens after the sentence is given -- thus it is the execution of the sentence.

b)the work of the Holy Spirit to teach them His Laws in the sanctification-purifying process

c)a repentance(=second death) & cleansing as symbolized in a baptism in a lake and washing rituals in the law.


Jesus is said to be like a refiner of precious metals, or fullers soap. The fire and the soap has the same goal to wash, or burn the impurities away. So why do you assume the fire is literal? Also why do you assume the judgment of God is all the same verdict -- physical death - annihilation - literal burning in fire by which this type of judgment is not found in the law.

The goal of any judgment of God was always correctional and to teach his people righteousness (His laws). (Is 26:9,10) But since man lifespan is so short, and a reasonable time of mercy (6000 years) was needed to proceed the Great White throne Judgment; thus, many has died a physical death. Some died because their nation was corrected(judged by the Lord) despite some individual that died were not guilty of their nation's sin. Then we have some individual that were judged in the Old Covenant time by stoning by which typified a defering of their judgment to the Great White throne which is like passing a case to the supreme court.

If you study the judgments of God, not all judgments sentences were stoning. Only adultery, pre-meditated murder and presumption sins were. All other judgments addressed the crime in the measure of the offence and in the level of knowing the law. All judgment were correctional in nature. For example, if you stole someone lamb and were found; the judgment was you needed to pay two fold(return the lamb you stole plus another one). If you couldn't return it because you had destroyed it or sold it; then you had to pay 4 times. However, it you returned it before anyone noticed it was stolen, and confess your sin, then the judgment was only 1/5 of the cost of a lamb plus returning the stolen one. This is one example of the judgment of the law that depends on the nature of the crime and other factors.

Giving a person a chance and time to repent when they are told their sin, was always part of the law also. David was both an adulterer and a pre-meditated murderer. David very well knew the law at the intellectual level before he committed these sins. Despite, David was given a chance to repent and was not stoned to death. David is an example of an overcomer that was being trained in his lifetime by the Lord and his sins were corrected on the spot by the Lord.

Most people are not trained in their lifetime because they serve another purpose and their judgment is defered at the Great White throne. For many(unbelievers and believers alike) their sins seems to not be corrected; whereas under the old covenant in the time under Moses sins were sharply addressed in the camp. Then, we have various examples how the Lord has applied His judgment on David, on the nation of Israel and of Judah and with the Gentiles(nations). We also can see there were many warnings before a pronouncement of judgment. Then we see a lapse of time between the pronouncement of judgment and the execution of the judgment. So there are many factors involved in the proceeding of justice with mercy to allow growth and establish order in the kingdom.

David did not die by a literal stoning, but he did pay for his sins(the Lords judgments on David) that lasted for a good part of his lifetime. This is how the Lord taught David not to murder and not to commit adultery. It was the Lord's judgment-correction that made it possible for these laws to get written in David's heart. Without judgment & correction that fitted his crime, David would of never learned nor would David have become an overcomer at the end.

What the Lord did for David or any other overcomer; He can do and will do to all other men via His judgment after the Great White Throne. It wouldn't be fair for Him to not take the time to train the other people like He did with the FIRSTFRUITS-Overcomers.

There's much more to be said on what the Law and history by which reveal the wisdom and depth of the judgments of the Lord.

This equating all sins to the same literal death penalty by a LITERAL FIRE at the Great White throne Judgment is totally absurd and not in the law = thus has no light in it. Not once in the law did the Lord sentence anyone to death by a literal Fire. Not once. Why do you think He will do so and change His ways at the Great White throne?

I don't. You're assuming that I agree to some or all of your interpretation of what Jesus meant by "destruction."

When Jesus said people are on the road that leads to life, I interpret that to mean that they will live in the end. When Jesus said people are on the road that leads to destruction, I interpret that to mean that they will be destroyed in the end.

You seem to be saying that their minds will be destroyed, leaving their body and spirit intact, and they will be taught God's law until they decide to obey. But even if they never obey, the Jubilee puts a cap on how long they will have to go through this reeducation process. In the end, EVERYBODY will live.

It seems that in your view, the debt of sin is repaid, not by death, but by a very very very long sermon. Having sat through some long sermons specifically designed to pummel me into submitting to a belief I oppose and reject, I imagine that is a fate that could be far worse than death.

I see that you have quite a framework to support your belief, but I am far from accepting the conclusion that God will force the impenitent to live in His presence. Heaven would be torture to them.

Well, the plan of salvation was devised to save every single single being that would ever live. But, as 2 Peter 3:9 states, we must repent!

So then, the choice is ours to make. I hope we all make the right choices in our lives.

This life is our only chance.

But, there are many fearful ideas I believe, of some kind of second chances just in case we get it wrong in this life! This life is the only chance we get, and it is more than enough.

Why do I say it is enough? Because we have a Just and Holy God who hopes to save us all.

I never thought I would ever see so much confusion (Babylon) being sown
in a Seventh Day Adventist discussion of the nature of the soul.

Let us return to the beginning. What is God's definition of a soul?


"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7


When Adam was a completely formed body, was he a soul? No!
Was the breath of life "breathed into his (Adam's) nostrils the soul? No!
It was only when the breath of life and the physical body were united that Adam
"BECAME a living soul"!

A smartphone with no power source is a pretty chunk of glass, metal, and plastic.
A battery sitting on a table has no purpose.
Place the battery inside the smartphone and you have a scientific marvel that speaks, sees, and remembers!


This dark doctrine of no true eternal death belittles the great sacrifice of our Lord
and echoes the ominous words of the Serpent: "Ye shall not surely die"...

It is remarkable how often the Devil repeats that first lie spoken to our parents.

I realize there are some Pseudo-Adventists among us who would lead us to cast aside the words of God's Last Day Prophet, but for those with ears to hear, Sister White has warned us to beware these coming deceptions:

"The prophet says, “I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils” (Revelation 18:1, 2). This is the same message that was given by the second angel. Babylon is fallen, “because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication” (Revelation 14:8). What is that wine?—Her false doctrines. She has given to the world a false sabbath instead of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and has repeated the falsehood that Satan first told Eve in Eden—the natural immortality of the soul. Many kindred errors she has spread far and wide, “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9). – {2SM 118.1}"

Does anyone else find this theory of unsaved "souls" being purged by fire after death, then returned to the company of the redeemed, to be vaguely familiar?
It bares more than a passing resemblance to the Catholic teaching of Purgatory!


"Purgatory : a state after death according to Roman Catholic belief in which the souls of people who die are made pure through suffering before going to heaven."
Merriam-Webster

Either they bear fruit of the Spirit or they will perish, God will cut them out of his garden, there is no other way.

Luke 13King James Version (KJV)

1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

You are adding to this text. It doesn't mention anything about what you say "that out choice for salvation is only granted in this life". There's no mention of that at all in that text. You are extending your deduction that the text doesn't mention.

The text only says the following :

#1 "It is appointed to man to die ONCE" : which I believe everyone would agree that it is talking about the physical natural death of the body that Jesus defined as a sleep.

#2 "And after this the judgment" : which we know it is the Great White throne Judgment define in Rev 20 that take place after the Millennium.


Man Appointed to Die ONCE -- not TWICE

I have read some Universalist believers using this text to prove that scripture says man can only die the 1st death(the physical death) once. Since the Lord is resurrecting everyone after they had already died once, then it is impossible that they will die the physical death again -- a SECOND TIME.

I do think the Universalist have a point.


Death Cast in Lake of Fire BEFORE the People

Plus the Universalist use the scripture in Rev 20:14 that says "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." And they reason by saying since death was destroyed in the fire BEFORE the people were cast in the lake of fire in v. 15. than it is impossible for them to die again.

Because of these two texts (and other) Universalist believe that the "lake of fire" has to be symbolic.

However, those that believe in FOREVER BURNING IN A LITTERAL LAKE OF FIRE, also uses these same reasoning of Heb 9:27 & Rev 20:14 that Universalist uses to prove a forever burning for they cannot die the first death twice and death was destroyed before they were cast in the Literal fire. By which I think they have more of a biblical stand than SDAs annihilation position as we also teach a literal lake of fire interpretation as they do. We just don't believe in a forever burning; but they have a stronger biblical stand than we do and our interpretation conflicts with these two texts.

I don't believe that the book of Revelation is to be taken LITERALLY, John saw things that were presented to him in a symbolic language. Nor do I like to use these PROOF texts. I rather test interpretation on what the law says(Is 8:20) and understand it for it is prophetic laying out the plan of salvation that the Lord has in mind and will fulfill.


Universalist Vs. Restitution of all things

So this is why I do not fit in the camp of "Universalist" by which these people base their belief on some Grace texts and other NT texts. They do not believe in the fulfillment of the Law and have also nail the laws to the cross like most Christians(including SDAs) has done.

I am a firm believer of the "restitution of all things"(Acts 3:21) which is the central purpose of the Great White Throne. According to the judgments of the law given to Moses, justice is not rendered without restitution is rendered to the victim. In the law it was often equated by a sum of money rendered by the equivalence of the loss or damages that needed to be paid by the offender depending on the judgment prescribed in the law. Thus is everyone is Annihilated like we SDAs are taught to believe; then justice according to the law is not rendered because there's has been no "restitution of all things".


Heb 9:27 doesn't say that. Do you have another text to support this speculation? As far as I know, there's no text that says that.


That's not true. There is a LAW that is call the second Passover found in Number 9.

The Second Passover

This law is for the people that have missed the first Passover because (Num 9:6-10):

a) they "were defiled by the dead body of a man" : which those that resurrect after the Millennium are still MORTAL thus defiled by their own dead(mortal) body.

b) "be in a journey afar off" : that represent all of those that were far off from the Lord

Thus the Lord has made provision by Law that allows anyone after death that have mist the FIRST Passover for the reason listed above that they can keep the SECOND Passover and be justified by the blood of Jesus also.

Maybe you missed the part, "in conjunction with the other verses".

What is happening with death and hell? Didn't you say that when people are thrown in the Lake of Fire, that means they are being taught the law? Are death and hell being taught the law also?

I believe being thrown in the Lake of Fire means being destroyed - ceasing to exist - whether it is literal or symbolic of the exact mechanism for destruction. Therefore, death and hell are destroyed, like the impenitent.

??? And the next verse doesn't either say or implied what Daryl has deducted.

AV Hb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them [the overcomers] that look for him shall he appear the second time [Jesus 2nd coming] without sin unto salvation."

V.28 describe the judgment said in v.27 -- that really technically begin at Jesus 2nd coming when He & His overcomers will start establishing the Melchisedek reign and intercession. But later at the Great White throne is when all, great and small, will be judged.


Death(the physical) is not the end road for salvation

If that were so, then the following would not be possible:

-"for every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that He is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 3:10, 11).
-for God to be "the savior of all men, especially those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10).
- for all of creation to come into subjection to Christ.(Heb. 2:8)
- for "all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1Tim 2:4)
- for "dead men" to pay restitution for their sins as the law prescribes and teaches
- for justice to be rendered to all the victims of sins
- to fulfill the law of Jubilee where the Lord set a time limit for which we labor under the taskmaster of sin. The law establish that debt-bondage was limited to a maximum of 50 years which was the prophetic pattern(TYPE) of His plan of salvation.


The Great White Throne Judgment

At the Great White Throne, that's when all men will come to know the truth of the Great plan of salvation. All will be judged according to their works (Rev. 20:13) and according to their level of knowledge and responsibility.

This judgment will not be in any form of torture, for there is no torture in the divine law.

Men will be required to pay restitution for their sin. Yet since there will be no way that any man could ever pay the penalty for his own sins, he will be “sold” (Ex. 22:3) and will be placed under the authority of the overcomers who will teach him the ways of God. Not via oppression or abuse like the Israelites have applied the Jubilee law in the past, but by manifesting the love of Christ as a benevolent master-priest.

The Purpose of working off the debt incurred by sin

At the great Jubilee, all of creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Rom. 8:21). Their freedom is not be based upon their ability to work off their salvation and pay their debt that was incurred by sin. This Jesus has paid the full price for the entire world.

The purpose of this working judgment time was to teach them RIGHTEOUSNESS -- "for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Is 26:9) Jesus does not impute our trespasses unto us(2Cor 5:19) by this; however it doesn't mean He cannot use our sins to correct us and teach us His laws. All earthly parents does the same thing with their children.

The liberty of all men will be based upon the pure mercy and grace of God which is the foundation of the Jubilee Law.


The FirstFruits of Salvation Manifested at Jesus 2nd coming

So Heb. 9:28 tells us that this entire process of judgment begins with the second coming of Christ, when “those who eagerly await Him” (the overcomers) will be the first fruits of creation to receive the glorified body. Since the first fruits sanctify the rest of the harvest, thus all of creation "waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19) which are the overcomers. "Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God". (Rom 8:21) Seeing the FirstFruits (the overcomers) will be the primary sign confirming their own redemption in the end of time.

Remember, in the Law there are 3 harvests: the overcomers is the first one which is the Barley harvest, then the wheat harvest which are the believers, and last the grape harvest which are the unbelievers.

I hope you can show me what exactly is the confusion that is presented besides just mentioning it.

I'm most of the time quite detailed in my postings expressing the best I can what my understanding is and my biblical sources for my understanding; so that anyone that sees an error or confusion can bring it forth.


OK, are you saying the battery is the breath of life??? Could you be more specific and tell us what do you understand the breath of life means in Gen 2:7?

Body + breath = LIVING soul Tell me what is exactly the soul without the living part? Or let me put it this way Ps 16:8-11 says the soul goes to Scheol(Hades) when it dies(not living). So what exactly goes to Scheol -- the battery-breath?

Dedication and I both agree that the soul is "think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character." and is the "essence" of the individual. In quotes are dedications words, not mine and they reflect exactly what I was saying.

Do you agree with the above?

We both agree that the soul cannot exist without the body and that the soul dies.

I assume you agree with the above is as this is SDA standard belief.



There we go again -- casting the same fearful warnings.

????
This is what I was referring to and what you said:


I did tell you in post#179538 that the narrow road -- this "few" -- applies to the 2nd coming of Jesus when only the Overcomers will resurrect to reign with Christ during the Millennium. This few does NOT apply to those at the 2nd resurrection - the broad road. I even bold it and supersized the text as such :


Maybe you didn't read that big section in my post and just missed it.

So I did assumed that you had read it and since you quoted only the section about those that resurrect after the Millennium; so I tried to address that group -- and yes I did assumed you held the standard believe that only those that resurrect at the 1st resurrection gets life, and those that resurrect at the 2nd don't -- they get annihilated.


You simply missed what I said in that post.


No, you really mis-understood and I will take the blame for it as I know I'm not that great in putting thoughts into words. I said the 2nd death is a spiritual death where the mind(=soul) submits to Jesus. The destruction of the soul is basically destroying the pride of man that is in the mind which then leads to repentance.


I never talk about obedience directly as I didn't want to make things longer that it was already. So I never said what you assumed above nor do I believe in this. I had talked about hearing-obeying the Lord so many times in so numerous discussion that I recall once or twice you were involve in them; I assumed you knew my position on this. But I did mention in this discussion when I replied to you that anyone risen at the 2nd resurrection has to go thru the spiritual growth of Pentecost that is required by ALL including those that goes in the lake of fire which is all about learning to hear-obey the voice of God. Hear and Obey is the same Hebrew word -- shama, and they are used interchangeably for you cannot obey without hearing, and vice versa.


Sorry to sound like a sermon and it appears that I have annoyed you. The fact of the situation is that since I come from the other spectrum of a view; it has to be explained why and what biblical source that led me to believe in such. Also the fact that many has nailed the laws to the cross and don't reflect on it; and truth hinges on this(Is 8:20) is another problem and it needs to be explained. I try to be as brief as I can, but I do know I have a problem in not being succint.


???Impenitent? I never said that. I said that all will repent and submit to the Lord's judgment and leadings.
hmmm.

I don't believe the narrow gate represents the first resurrection, nor do I believe the broad one represents the second. I believe the narrow way represents the path to life, or the process of living a sanctified, faith-filled life. When Jesus comes, the rewards and punishments spoken of in the Bible's last chapter will be handed out, but the "way" in which people have lived and formed their characters up to that time will determine whether they are saved (both from sin and from death) or lost/destroyed. The resurrections are simply the results of "way" in which people have lived. Jesus is the "way, the truth, and the life." If we live in Jesus, we have eternal life, even now (see John 3:36).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes I did say fire = law; but No, I said the lake of fire is symbolic of the execution of the sentence pronounced at the Great White throne. I must of confused you when I explained that Daniel saw the throne & wheels in fire, and a river of fire, and that John saw the continuation of that fire into a lake. Sorry about that. Yes while serving their sentence in the lake of fire, they are being taught the law but via the judgment or sentence pronounced as quoted in Isaiah 26:9,10. I hope that is more clear. Sorry again for the confusion.

Are you serious? Are death and hades some people that were judge at the Great White Throne? I don't think so.

However since I believe all the people will repent as the Lord has sworn this will happened in Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 They will say of Me, “Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength…”

and Paul expands on this prophetic statement in Phil. 2:9 "Therefore also God highly exalted Him [Jesus Christ], and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

And Paul says in 1 Cor. 12:3 “no one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit.” To me this is a genuine repentance that can take place at no other time than after receiving their judgment at the Great White Throne and learning all the truth at that time(1Tim 2:4).

So since I do believe they will repent -- wouldn't that put them in the road to life from that point on?

Thus since Jesus said that he had the keys of death and hades in His possession in Rev 1:18; so possibly Rev 20:14 could means that since everyone has repented after the judgment, death is irrelevant now by this sure road to life and "all which He[Father] hath given me I should lose nothing" John 6:39. And no-one is in hades(=unseen) anymore since they were all resurrected -- right?


Do you believe the baptism of fire of the Holy Spirit destroys physically a person? Remember Daniel's 3 friends. They were in a literal fire, not even a symbolic fire, and they were not even destroyed because Jesus was with them.

So it is interesting that you said above such an extreme opposite view, that whether it is a symbolic lake of fire or not it will still physically destroy them. Shows that your mind is quite firm on this. Not even a "thus says the Lord" as "I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.". You must believe the Lord doesn't always really mean what He says or that text doesn't say what it says. Also you must not be aware that the Lord said twice that passing children thru a literal fire never even came into his mind.

Not the lake of fire at the end -- it is not symbolic, it is literal.
Satan is cast into the lake of fire --
Are you saying he will be saved too?

He will be destroyed.
And so will everyone cast into the lake of fire whose name is not written in the book of life.

Sodom and Gomorrah are a type of this lake of fire.
It was not a matter of having their "souls" destroyed and their bodies living. They died -- soul and body.

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
19:29 God destroyed the cities of the plain

Luke 17:28-30 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

There was nothing symbolic about the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah -- it was literal resulting in total destruction of those cities and its inhabitants.

We are not to make things symbolic that are obviously literal.

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 20:9 and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[/u]




Those text do NOT say the people repent.



Allegiance is an ADDED word, not part of scripture.

Every knee will bow and everyone will "swear".
THE WORD ALLEGIANCE IS NOT PART OF THE VERSE.

Read the whole context:

God is calling people to look to Him for salvation.

45:22-24 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

So what is the text saying?

The time will come -- and we know it will be at the white throne judgment, when everyone will realize that it was true, there was salvation only in Christ.

The word "swear" does NOT mean give allegiance
That word "allegiance" was added to the text, it's not part of the text.

To swear means to speak under oath, or to adjure.
Like -- "I adjure you to tell me the truth"
It means to tell the truth under oath.

Thus, yes, everyone before the white throne will bow, and confuse the truth -- Salvation was only in Christ.

That does NOT mean they repent,
It simply means those who rejected Christ, acknowledge the truth concerning what they rejected, they acknowledge the truth that they rejected life. They will confuss that salvation was only in Christ.

Remember -- the word "allegiance" is not part of that scripture, it was added.
To "swear" simply means they acknowledge the truth.



The same in Paul's writing:
Therefore also God highly exalted Him [Jesus Christ], and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.[/b]"

That does not say they all repent.
They will confess that that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Even Satan will confess that.
But they do not repent.
Everyone will acknowledge that God was just, that He had desired their salvation -- had fully provided for their salvation and had offered it to them during their lives, which they fully realize they rejected, but they don't repent.



Sometime before the second coming the final pronouncement is made:

Rev. 22:11 He that is unjust, let him remain unjust: and he which is filthy, let him remain filthy: and he that is righteous, let him remain righteous: and he that is holy, let him remain holy.
22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
22:15 For outside the city are the sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Rev.2:10-11 be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

--- The "confusion" is the claim being made that the soul is some sort of separate entity that exists apart from the physical body. The Genesis description of the creation of Man clearly shows that Adam did not become "a living soul" until the "breath of life" (that is the energy provided by God to make the body live) was united with the physical body.



--- The physical body goes into Scheol/Hades (the grave) and the breath returns to God.
Separated from the energy or "breath" the body ceases to function and becomes once more merely dust. There is no ethereal "soul" floating around thinking and feeling:

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
Psalm 146:4

--- To those of us who believe the words of Sister White, her caution that "the falsehood that Satan first told Eve in Eden—the natural immortality of the soul", would be one of the two final great deceptions spread by Babylon, IS a "fearful warning"!

If everyone is eventually saved via some quasi Purgatorial sin/debt repayment plan, why don't we all just have a good time: take what we want, sleep with whomever we please, kill anybody we don't like, "eat, drink, and be merry"?

After all what's a few hundred or thousand years of indentured servitude compared to the sinless eternity that follows?

In all the endless years of forever, we will never have another opportunity to play
such dark and self indulgent games!


This is the ultimate fruit of Universalism...

I totally agree with you that the narrow way is not the 1st resurrection and the broad way = the 2nd despite 98% of the cases will end up in such way. The Bible does not make such reference. I made such an association to address the assumption that Asygo was trying to make with Mat 7 by saying the broader way = destruction that ends at Annihilation. I do agree with him(he did not say it but implies it) that those that stays in the broader way will be in the 2nd resur. and will have to go thru "destruction" but I don't believe anyone will be annihilated.

Jesus used the narrow gate in two teachings :

1)Mat 7 saying its about bearing fruits(like RichH points out in another parable).

2)Luk 13 is about being CAST OUT of the Kingdom because of the coming Judgment. And that parable had two time application : a)the near future in 70 - 135 AD when Jerusalem & many people were destroyed and those that survived were dispersed. b)At Jesus 2nd coming.

But being cast out of the Kingdom does not automatically equates to losing their salvation as we see today the Jews and the ex-Israelites can come back into the Kingdom if they repent.

Then to make things even more complicated, in both teachings of the narrow & broad gate Jesus is ONLY referring to the BELEIVERS and is not addressing the UNBELIEVERS at all. The broad road points to the fate of the UNFAITHFUL BELIEVERS who doesn't bare fruits and some(not all) will be totally cast out of the Kingdom like the Jews were.

So to conclude, Mat 7 is a very poor text to try to prove that few are saved and most are lost. It's not even talking about being saved or not, its talking about whether or not you will have to be "destroyed" or cast out to be saved. That's another assumption Asygo is making -- being destroyed does not equate not being saved.

So really basically it's talking about few among the believers will pass thru the narrow gate and will become OVERCOMERS. It's not talking about being saved or not.

Sorry dedication I don't have time to adress every thing here.
Yes the fire is said to be the law in Deut 33:2, but my understanding is the lake of fire is the execution of the sentenced, verdict, judgment that the Lord gave according to the law.

Then the word satan has to be defined and it can mean an adversary. But to be brief, the Lord has pass a judgment on the adversary, the deceiver and will be destroyed.



The type in the OT was always physical and carnal; but it always pointed to a prophetic spiritual realm. It would take time to look at a few Hebrew words and the law concerning Sodom and Gomorrah but the sulfur(brimstone) was a cleansing agent like the fire and the soap is symbolically referred to in Mal 3.

The book of revelation is clearly spoken in a symbolic language. There's no doubt about that. So for everyone to say the lake of fire is literal is an assumption and doesn't go with the context of the whole book. Nor does your assumption aligns with what the Lord made clear to us in Num 12:1-8 that he speaks to prophets in "dark speeches"(riddles- symbolic language to be solved).




Rev 20:7-10 is a time that is between the 2nd resurr. and the Great White Throne. Theirs not much detailed said there but just an outline expressed symbolically. The end result of this final war is the adversary and the false prophets(=false teachings) are cast in the lake of fire. I don't think these are actual individuals but a figure of speech to say that the adversary and false doctrines will be destroyed and be no more effecting those in the 2nd resurr. because these will be concquered by that fire that came down(=voice, or events from God that reveal the truth of God). For if the false prophets are actual people and were cast out in the lake of fire before the great White throne, then there works won't be judged with the dead that are judge then.



No. it is a different English translation of the rendering of the Hebrew word shaba'. What makes one translation better than the other? It will be the one that renders the proper meaning of the Hebrew word in context better.

For sure many English translation only renders the word shaba' as swear, but in Bible Hub 8 translation renders it as "swear allegiance" or "confess allegiance" due to the context. And I agree with that translation and that's why I quote these instead of my usual KJV quoting.

The proper meaning of shaba' is " to be complete, but used only as a denominative from H7651; to seven oneself, i.e. swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times)."



I did and I have redone it and I don't see your interpretation valid -- every knee and every tongue means EVERY and shaba' means to pledge an oath 7 times and in this context "to swear allegiance" to me is a proper English translation since their knee is bowed down to the Lord while their tongue is shaba'ing while saying in the next verse "in the Lord have I righteousness and strenght"(Is 45:24). To say "I have righteousness and strenght in the Lord" is way more than an acknowledgement that the Lord judgment is just like our Church teaches.

I think you should also re-read the whole context.


Paul is quoting Isaiah 45 and he knows what shaba' means in this context. And I don't believe it mean what you say it means and what you would like it to mean.

There's no glory in having a group of people forced to admit that the Lord is right yet they don't want to submit to Him; but there is lots of glory if all repents and pledge allegiance to Him.

Do note that your interpretation (to admit God is just, but don't want to submit to Him) then makes that the Lord failed to bring all things in subjection to Christ. So you have a problem there with your interpretation.

I guess we both believe the verse does NOT mean what the other says it means.

Those verses do NOT mean everyone "swears allegiance".
The word "allegiance" is added, it is NOT in the original.


I know the word in the original is "shaba" H7650
and it does NOT mean to repent or give allegiance.

Just because people WANT it to mean something doesn't give them permission to add that word.


"Shaba" means
to swear, adjure, to take an oath, to tell the truth, to repeat that truth seven times.


There's nothing in that word itself, that means "repentance" or "allegiance".

People can "swear H7650" by God, or by Baal, or by their word, or by anything-- .
The Bible cautions us NOT to swear

The New Testament rendering of the term:
Matt. 5:33-35 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

In the OT to swear "shaba" H7650
can be to take any oath -- for example

Jeremiah 22:5
But if ye will not hear these words, I swear H7650 by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.

Amos 4:2
The Lord GOD hath sworn H7650 by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks


So we see the word "swear" H7650 does not mean to repent or give allegiance when it stands there by itself.

What are the people brought to acknowledge there before the white throne judgment?

They acknowledge that God is just.
They realize it was their own stupidity in choosing the illusive, thrills of sin and turning their backs on the outstretched hand of Christ the ONLY SAVIOR, that they are now on the outside facing eternal death (the second death)

Everyone will KNOW and acknowledge under oath, that GOD WAS JUST and did everything possible to save them.
No one will blame God for their eternal loss.
God's glory and honor is vindicated for eternity.

Your point is the word "allegiance" is not in the text; but the English text is a translation of shaba' and at least 8 translations rendered it that way.

My point is the context defines what shaba' means. And the context around the word shaba' is "every knee bows and every tongue swear. Surely they say "in the Lord have I righteousness and strenght".

So whether we add the word allegiance or not, the context still says that the shaba' was an allegiance type of oath. So the context disproves what you say the text says or doesn't say.


Isaiah 45 and the 3 places Paul quotes this text, none of these text says nor allude to any of what you say above. You are adding to scripture again. You are repeating teachings of men.

The context says everyone says "in the Lord I have righteousness and strenght" this is an allegiance, a wanting to follow Him, a dedication of ones life to Him, etc...

??? You must be talking about someone else because I did not say this nor allude to this concept.


??? No one mentioned Gen 2:7 nor challenged this.





The underlined and bold text above, you differ from what scripture says and even our Church.

the body goes back to dust(Ecc 12:7)
the soul(nephesh) goes to Scheol(=unseen) (Ps 16:10)
and the spirit(ruach) goes back to God (Ecc 12:7)

Our Church doesn't stress that the soul goes to Scheol, but mainly teach correctly about where the body and the spirit goes.

I still don't have a firm grip of what the breath(nashamah) in Gen 2:7 means technically. I know it is related to the soul(mind) and puts it in motion and probably keep the mind functioning also.

Do take note that this breath(nashamah, "vital breath, intellect") is not the same as the Spirit(ruach). You are confusing the two and equating it as the same. Our Church also does treat it as the same for it has not noticed that it was a total different word. So this shows that our understanding of the soul is lacking.


??? No one in this discussion said or allude to what you are trying to correct here.



With this text, you are bringing some confusion as you are implying that the word ruach is the same breath word in Gen 2:7. It is not. In Gen 2:7 the breath is nashamah and not ruach.


Well, you brought a "fearful warning" for nothing as no-one has brought any confusion yet besides you.

I see you haven't answered any of the question I ask you. Since you started to enlighten us by defining what was the soul -- could you please answer my question below so I can understand what you understand. But since you have confused nashamah with ruach; you probably don't know any more than I.

To claim that "sheba" means "an oath of allegiance" is what constitutes the "teaching of men" for it is not in the text.
The Word "sheba" does mean "an oath" to swear, adjure, to tell the truth, to repeat that truth seven times.

But it's purely the addition of men that this is an oath of allegiance and proof that all repent and pledge allegiance to God.



Even if some translations have added that word, "allegiance" it's still not there in the original text.

The Bible is perfectly clear that those who do not accept Christ in this life will not be given a second life in which to make that decision.



Are you sure?

In the passage God has proclaimed that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear...
To kneel and to swear does involve complete recognition of the sovereignty, justice and power of the One to whom they bow -- that's true enough. It does not follow, however that this is a picture of universal repentance or of salvation.

There is a sharp juxtaposition in the following verse.

"Only in the LORD, it is said of me, is righteousness and strength; even to him shall men come; and all those who were incensed against him shall be disappointed." HNV

"“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. NASB

"They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are deliverance and strength.’ ” All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.


The enemies of Jehovah are inflamed; enraged; angry, their attitude is not one of loving worship, they are active in indignation against the very ONE Whose glory and justice they can't help but honor and acknowledge.

But you did say:

Yes -- "the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezk 18:4
Notice in the above text it specifies that it is the SOUL that must die, not the body.


This was given in response to the question concerning this verse:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

What does destruction at the end of the road mean?


ProdigalOne answer was not contrary to any Adventist teaching.
The church (and scripture) has always taught that when a person dies, he ceases to exist. The body infused with God's breath of life is a living soul. When the breath of life departs, the whole person is DEAD.

As far as identifying "ruwach" spirit and "neshamah" spirit and soul, these words are at times used interchangeably, thus not making it logical to classify them in separate boxes. (That would be for another thread)
We do know that God gives the "breath of life" that quickens the body into a living soul.

When that "breath of life" is gone, the person is dead.
What returns to God? God's life giving breath, but I also believe an exact transcript of the person's "soul" their character, thought patterns and individuality also returns to God -- sort of like a computer disk with the full digitized details what that person was. (Though God would have far superior methods than computer disks) At the resurrection all that information is restored into the resurrected new body-- we will be who we were before the first death. The soul is not an identity of it's own -- it has no life apart from the body, but God will have an exact transcript of the "soul" of every individual.

BUT I must clarify -- what I said about the "soul" earlier is NOT exactly what you were saying at all.

I was saying that if this destruction at the end of the wide road means, as you wrote, that the soul is destroyed (but the body stays alive) then the ability to think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. would be destroyed. The soul is the "essence" of the individual, thus if his soul is destroyed, his very personhood would be destroyed.
What would be left, if the soul was destroyed but the body still alive? Just some mindless, emotionless robots bowing before the throne.

Thus that text in Matthew cannot be explained as the transformation that takes place in a repentant person's heart and mind when he/she comes to Christ. The soul is NOT destroyed by sanctification. It is transformed, not destroyed.

The text in Matthew has a clear juxtaposition.

Strait gate and narrow path LEADS TO EVERLASTING LIFE.
Wide gate and broad road LEADS TO DESTRUCTION.

Everlasting life is one destination at the end of one road.
Destruction (not re-education), is the destination at the end of the other road.

Elle, I have answered each of your questions and a previous poster has nicely clarified the points you did not understand. (thank-you for your wisdom Dedication, you are a great blessing! :-)

My understanding of the nature of the soul came from my first encounter with the Seventh Day Adventist Church at a Daniel/Revelation seminar in the early eighties. A brilliant Egyptian evangelist led several hundred of us, step by step, through each of the Church doctrines. The beauty and simplicity of the Bible was shown so wonderfully that the scripture twisting confusion taught by so many other denominations was made plain: exposed as the cursed wine of Babylon.

Sadly, in thread after thread, I see this same confusion being sown.


Elle, if you cannot understand the simple straight truth then I fear that you have been blinded by that confusion.

Be careful. There are two gestures (bow & swear) both having their own meanings. You are combining both of these gesture into one -- to swear. Non, non, non.

Meaning of the Two gestures

1.bowing the knee -- is a submission. All throughout the Bible this is the meaning of bowing before other Gods. This is why Daniel's friends did not bow down to the statue, because it means submission to the god the statue represents.

2. the tongue that swear -- is saying an oath. What type of oath or swearing are they saying?

These are the possibilities that comes to mind. If there's others, please let me know :

a) to swear whatever you are saying is the truth : it could be in a court of law, or to an individual, or to a group of people. This is not the case in this context.

b) to swear that you keep your end of the bargan-contract, your words, or keep this charge. This is also not the case in this context.

c) to swear an allegiance to an authority, to your leader, to a god, to a country, etc... This does fit this context because #1 they have bowed their knee before hand which means they had submitted to someone.



I don't see any juxaposition.



AV Isa 45:24 "Surely, shall [one] say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

The text above doesn't say as you allude that anger is in their heart and is their attitude when they bowed in submission and swore . The text says clearly the following:

a) "Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: " : Surely -- mean truly, I have righteousness in the Lord -- this say their righteousness & strength rest in the Lord now. This is definitely a statement a new convert says and not someone that is angry as you suggest. No longer their righteousness & strength rest on themselves as it were before.

b) "even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed" : This statement that comes AFTER part a) qualifies who where these men by saying -- men shall come to the LORD and all that are "angry" against him shall be ashamed -- after knowing the truth, someone can be ashamed that they were angry at the Lord before. Or this can be a simple statement that the Lord successfully brought his enemies into shame.

Then since we went this far, let's bring more of the context by bringing verse 22 and verse 25.

AV Isa 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
...
AV Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."

So verse 22 the Lord is saying to everyone to look unto Him and be saved. This is the context "look...be ye saved" before the next verse were the Lord swears and his word will not return empty that "every knee bow and every tongue swear". This oath the Lord said was in response to verse 22 to qualify it in what He will do.

Then in verse 25 the same context is brought in a conclusive matter -- "ALL Israel [u]shall be JUSTIFIED[/i] and [u]shall GLORY[/i]". These words are words of what happens after someone submits and swear allegiance, not words of forced swearing when still angry unrepentant mob saying "ok ok you win, you are righteous God and not you can annihilate us".

Sorry dedication, what you say is not found in the context.

Plus Paul quotes Isaiah 45:25 "all Israel shall be saved" with other Isaiah & Hosea texts to show that the blindness & dispersion(judgment) of Israel was for the fulfillment of the "fulness of the nations"(Gentiles=ethnos)in his Rom 11 study.

The context of Is 45:22-25 does not say what you are saying dedication. I can't buy that.

No. you are mis-representing what I said and I had clarified that to you by addressing every false assumption you had made of what I had said or implied. So here it appears that you deliberately mis-represent what I said to you after I had clarified what you did not understand beforehand. I hope it is not a deliberate mis-representation. I will repeat myself one more time, so there's no more of these assumption and mis-representation. Be careful.

In brief, my point in quoting Ezk 18:4 -- it is in the mind(=soul) that sin take place, and it is also in the mind someone repents -- which is a SPIRITUAL Death -- the death of that old person that is symbolized at baptism and we are raised to a new person that now submit our mind(soul) to the direction and leading of the Lord Jesus-Christ. This is the death -- the Spiritual death that I believe Paul dies daily. Paul does not die daily a Physical death.

That was my point, and my only point and my long post assert this. What you and Alchemy went on about the physical soul cannot live without the physical body and so on and so forth -- I never said so nor implied it or even was talking about the physical plane -- I was talking about the SPIRITUAL plane.

My association to that text and point was simply there's a SPIRITUAL Death.


???ProdigalOne said the body goes to scheol -- scripture or our Church doesn't say that. The body returns back to dust and to the ground. That's what scripture teaches.


Not true. These words are very different. They are not even spelled with the same Hebrew letters. Not even related words by the Hebrew lettering definition -- as each Hebrew letter is a word that the sum of them define the whole word. The simple fact these words don't have the same letters, these words are not the same.

Nice try. I know you were trying to save ProdigalOne mistakes.



Anyone can make some speculation and define things what they think it means. But what matters and what stand is how the Lord defines things in scripture and what He teaches us these to mean via personal revelation in our life.

Your speculation above is "what dedication thinks" and dedication deduced this by saying ruach and nshamah is the same word. Your foundation is not strong if you have the attitude to not pay attention to the words the Lord's uses to expressed things.


You define soul as "think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character." and the "essence" of the individual. And that is exactly my definition of the soul also. And this is exactly the defintion of the mind too. The only thing I have done that you haven't is I took another step and said Soul = Mind. You didn't do that or say that, but by definition you said that.


I have already addressed that same objection of yours in the other exchanged we had.

Let me quote what we previously exchange. We see below that you can only see the mind-Soul Death in a Physical plane, while I'm saying there's also a Spiritual mind-soul death -- the repentance and submission of the mind. This you do not want to make this association or acknowledge that there such repentance that takes place in the mind.

Probably its because you absolutely don't want to make either association of mind-soul or this spiritual death is the second death. I can understand that is the main problem for that gives an opening to take Rev 20 and the lake of fire symbolically. I will add to my reply in green to give more clarity when necessary. But I know clarification is not what you want.





I agree, as I have confirmed above also. On the physical level when the soul is destroyed, then if the body is still ticking, I agreed with you that the person is mindless. But I DID NOT SAY the soul is being destroyed on a physical level at the Great White throne -- I said very clearly and repetively that the soul dies on a SPIRITUAL LEVEL= repentance of the MIND-soul being my main POINT. Stop mis-representing what I said.


A humbling is a destruction of the mind in the sense that your esteem of your reasoning, of your great decisions you've made, of how great your wisdom is, and etc... all that take place in the mind and this needs to be destroyed before we come to repentance and take the road to salvation. There's lots of text in prophecies where the Lord tells us how He will destroy us by humbling us. The Lord humbling us is part of the plan of salvation and is a necessary step before He can transform us. He has to knock down all those hyped-mountains-of-trust-in-our-abilities-in-our-mind so to prepare the way for the Lord sanctification.


Re-read my post about it. You are not even in context of what Jesus used the "narrow gate" teachings. You cannot just add your interpretation, without first studying in what context Jesus was using this for and what He has said about it.

If my rendering of what was said in scriptures is not correct then bring that specifically and let's address that.

I even left out the Greek and Hebrew definition of "DESTRUCTION" because my post was getting too long. Good thing for I was annoying Asygo. But the word used for "destruction" has to be looked at.

To give you a "tease" -- Jesus said the following :

"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost[apollumi, "to destroy fully"]" Mat 18:11

The word apollumi means "to destroy fully". So we could translate Mat 18:11 as "the Son of man is come to save that which was destroy" Destruction does not mean what you or Asygo has interpretated it to mean -- as the end road -- no salvation & complete annihilation.

Jesus said He came to save what was lost(destroyed). He cannot save those that still have faith in their superior MIND's ability to choose their own ways, to know their own truth, and etc... He has to destroy that trust of their Superior Mind[its ability to choose their own ways via knowledge] FIRST, before there's a chance for them to get into the path of life-salvation.

You bring on definition of words derived from English translation and defined by the world dictionary and phylosophy of the world. You need to go beyond the world's definition of words and its English translation of scriptures, and the Church interpretation of scriptures. You need to seek the Lord's definition, meanings, and interpretation.

Elle,

After looking at many of your posts, it seems to me that you are doing a lot of copying and pasting from another source, which tells me that these are not your original thoughts, but that you are in agreement in those thoughts.

I am not saying that it is wrong for you to do this, but am just wondering if that is what you are doing.

Am I correct in my assumption?

I fully realize that you have made the "destruction" a symbolic destruction, and spiritualize the endtime destruction away to mean that everyone is humbled, repents and is re-educated.

You say the texts talking of end time "destruction" isn't "utter destruction" of the person, but a destruction of their minds causing them to repent, then being re-education. I disagree.

My point is that you are misinterpreting the text.
When the text says the "soul that sins will die"
I believe it will die, not be re-educated.

And even if you agree that "soul" means the mind, ability to think, reason, love, choose, the very essence of what makes a person, a person etc. if THAT IS DESTROYED, they will never understand spiritual things either.
The personhood will be destroyed, and if the body is still alive, it will be an empty shell --

That is the meaning of a "living soul". A dead "soul" has lost all those abilities.

You do not believe "destruction" in the end is actual destruction -- but only humbling, and re-educating of the mind.
While I believe "destruction" IS DESTRUCTION, not re-education.

I believe if the text says
the narrow road leads to life,
while the wide road leads to destruction, it means what it says.
LIFE and DESTRUCTION are opposites.
LIFE is LIFE, DESTRUCTION means destruction, not a life of being re-educated under some human priests, in what's supposedly the EARTHLY millennium.


I'm NOT MISINTERPRETING what you say --
I'm disagreeing with what I see as your interpretation, and showing why I disagree.


The text is saying something very different from what you are presenting.




But that does not fit the text under discussion, or the text in Ezekiel that says the soul that sins will die.
It's side stepping a very prominent truth in scripture, and trying to replace it with another. Every time the Bible warns that unrepentant sinners will be destroyed, you try to turn it into sinners will be re-educated in a second life, so they will repent and be saved.

Ez. 18:18 The father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
18:19 Yet say ye, Why? does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son has done that which is lawful and right, has kept all my statutes, and has done them, he shall surely live.
18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

You fail to see the constant juxtaposition or contrasts between the saved from the unsaved.

Those texts are talking about life and death. Not two different paths to life.
The son who is abiding in God's righteousness and living accordingly will LIVE and not die.
What is this talking about? Everyone dies in this world whether they are good or bad. Thus it is talking about the eternal life beyond the grave.

The one who is not abiding in God's righteousness and living according to his wicked desires WILL DIE.
Now note the parallel argument.
The first (the son) will not die. (he will have eternal life)
The other will die. ( not have eternal life, but die the death from which there is no more resurrection)


One can't say the good son (who will not die) means he doesn't have to have the born again experience to have eternal life.
But the wicked father (who will die) is just having a born again experience thus he will live.

It doesn't fit.




But again -- it does not fit those texts.
To apply that concept to Ezekiel would be to imply that the good son (who will not die) means he doesn't have to "die daily" to have life.
But the wicked father (who will die) is just having to "die daily" in the second life and will also live.


And what Elle writes, is what Elle speculates the Bible says, and deduces what Elle thinks the Bible is saying. Or she is quoting what someone else thinks the Bible is saying.

Everyone can only share what they see in scripture.



Who is "we"?
And yes, I do believe the final destruction of the wicked is very physical.
The texts that speak of "repentance and submission" as part of conversion, are speaking of a spiritual "new birth" in THIS LIFE. This is NOT the second death.

The first death is a PHYSICAL death (we see it every time we go to a funeral -- it is the lot of every human)
The second death is a PHYSICAL death (it is a death from which there is no resurrection.

The SPIRITUAL death -- of repentance and dying to the things of the world and being alive to Christ that Paul speaks of, must happen BEFORE the first death,
Those who experience this "death to sin" and finding life in Christ, will not be hurt by the second death.

7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

I'll reread the text, not your post.
The text clearly says
the narrow road leads to life
the broad way leads to destruction

Life and destruction are the two destinations open to mankind.
Which will we choose.

To spiritualize away the obvious meaning would be to say
Those who enter the narrow gate don't have to die "the spiritual death" their minds are left intact, and they will live.
Those who enter the wide gate, have to "die the spiritual death" and they too will have life.

That is NOT correct interpretation.







apoleia G684

destroying, utter destruction
perishing, ruin, destruction

Yes, it does mean utter destruction at the end of the road.

Jesus said He came to save what was lost (perishing-- heading for utter destruction).

But thanks to Jesus coming to save us, we don't have to go down that broad road that is leading to utter destruction.
If we come to Christ NOW, in this life, in repentance and trust, He will save us, -- that is the narrow road that leads to life.
It's the ONLY road to LIFE.

Elle said:

"???ProdigalOne said the body goes to scheol -- scripture or our Church doesn't say that. The body returns back to dust and to the ground. That's what scripture teaches."



Perhaps we need to define the word "Sheol"?

Strong's #7585: "grave, hell, pit". "A noun meaning the world of the dead, Sheol, the grave, death, the depths. The word describes the underworld but usually in the sense of the grave and is most often translated grave."


"The body returns back to dust and to the ground. That's what scripture teaches."

I agree. Since the word Sheol means the grave, your euphemistic reference to it as "the body returns to the dust and to the ground" (the grave) seems to line up with my understanding.

I believe the physical body does in fact go to "Sheol" when it dies.
Do you have some alternate definition of "Sheol" that suggests that I am not in agreement with Scripture and the Church?

Well if I'm doing some copy and paste, then my source is a poor writer

No this is my own writing and my own words and my own reflection on the matter. I'm well capable of studying scriptures while looking up Greek and Hebrew words and testing doctrinal theories as I have done so the past 7+ years.

At times I do refer to Myron Robertson's(an SDA on Adventist Online that is a true Bible student link of his posts on AO) or Stephen Jones studies to know their impression on a topic and how they went about to express it. If I want to present their same points; I will chew these down and put it in my own words. Like anyone who studies material will refer to many sources during their studying time.

But I do prefer to study things on my own and exercise letting the Holy Spirit guide my thoughts and impressions. I will refer to Myron or Stephen or commentaries or other sources if I'm stuck and don't know what that portion of scriptures means because of the wording, or not aware of some historical background.

If I copy and paste a study from anyone, I will quote them as I have done in the past providing a source.

Also, remember we have already done this type of study in 2011 - 2013. Does All Being Saved in the End and Nobody Being Lost Have Biblical Support? link. So I had done these studies then and also in other forums. Also it has been a long studying process that I had done myself for many years before I knew Myron or heard of Stephen. So this topic is very familiar to me and I am able to write much faster than topic that I haven't studied as much.

The problem with many SDAs brothers and sisters that exchange in the forum, they do not seriously study the matter on their own. They only look for "proof texts" to debate in a discussion and repeat like a parrot the interpretation that was being taught to them. Many have neglected their Christian Duty to test all things like Ellen and James has rebuked us to do.

My posting wouldn't be so long if most had done their own studying before hand and I wouldn't have to address so many mis-representation of scriptures that often is twisted, things added, not the context, and etc....

I wished most would do their studying prior to posting especially if I happen to be in the discussion as I will signal mis-representation. I don't always, but at time I will. And then when I do, I know it causes embarassement. I'm sorry for that.

There's no harm to check if what you are about to say is really what scripture is saying. Actually it is a good exercise that I do all the time before I present something as we don't always remember how the Bible says things, or even if it really said what we thought it said. Many times by doing this exercise I found out what I thought was in scripture was not there. There's many things we say in our church that is not found in scriptures.

Going to Sheol-Hades and back to the ground is not the same place or thing. The body decomposes back into dust meaning the matter does not disappear -- this is not the same thing as the unseen or underground "world" where the souls of the dead goes in sheol-hades.

I know people defines sheol or hades as our modern graves and imagine the physical dust being there. But hades(G86) or sheol(H7585) are defined as the unseen and the underworld(a subterranean place) where the soul(not the body) goes.

Sheol "from H7592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates."

Hades "háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls"

I do know that in our Church some members do equate the returning to the grounds and hades-sheol together as you do. I'm not sure if our Church holds that same position. I always recalled being taught that the body goes back to dust and I agree with that. But maybe they do equate hades-sheol as the going back to dust; but if they do -- well I think this is not what scriptures says and confusing the issue by bunching two different concept together.

I assume that you are also aware that the sea creatures are also referred to as souls.

Indeed -- the church has always taught that the human being is a whole unit.

Death is NOT a dividing in which one part goes to dust and the other part to some subterranean retreat. That's where the whole concept of a burning hell was manufactured. Since most Christians believe in a burning hell, and the continuation of life in some subterranean retreat, you will find that definition in many concordances and word study books.

At death the soul is dead, the body is dead. Just because some verses render different words for where the dead person now is -- "back to dust" "underground" "no longer seen" "the grave" "a sepulcher" etc. etc. "sleeping with the fathers" has nothing to do with this discussion
IF WE ALL AGREE that the whole person is DEAD, when they die, and nothing of that person is living in some other sphere.

God does have an accurate record of the "soul" or the complete character (thoughts, character, personhood) of the deceased, (how or where He has that record is not the issue) the important part is that the resurrected new body will be the SAME person that died.

IF WE ALL AGREE that the whole person, at death, is DEAD, and nothing of that person is living in some other sphere, let's get back on topic --


Since the topic is will everyone eventually be saved? So, that person who goes into the grave, returns to dust, or however he is disposed of at death, what happens when they are resurrected?

If they rejected God in this life and failed to "die to sin" and be "born again in Christ" IN THIS LIFE, will they all be brought to repentance, be re-educated by a human priesthood, in a second life, and given eternal life?

It looks like you guys have had quite a bit of fun since I took my break. I'll catch up over the next few days.

I just want to clarify that I am not annoyed in the least. You and I can disagree as vigorously as we can muster, and it won't annoy me as long as there is a genuine exchange of ideas. What will annoy me are attempts to suppress honest dissent, when ideas flow only in one direction. That is a spirit I have no interest in engaging.

If you need a long post or many posts or many long posts to explain your ideas, I have no problem with that. If I get tired or run out of time, I know how to shut down my computer. LOL

The reference to a long sermon was not about you. I was remembering instances of literally sitting through sermons at church that were designed to oppose my beliefs. Given that there is usually no exchange of ideas during sermons, you can imagine how much it annoys me when that happens.

That is how I envision your description of the 40,000+ year session with the broad road travellers. They will get a sermon until they change their mind (or soul, as some call it).

BTW, is Satan going to be in that congregation?

I think I understand what you meant. What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't match what I think Jesus meant.

For example, Jesus said few will find the road to life. What you're saying is that few will find the road to life at the 1st resurrection, but everybody will eventually find it at the 2nd resurrection. You are adding to what Jesus said in a way that changes what He meant.

Yes, I believe those who miss the 1st resurrection will be annihilated. In fact, you cited a verse that I believe teaches that:
What happens to "those who commited the evil deeds"? The full verse makes a distinction between the different types of resurrections.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29)

I believe Jesus was making a contrast between the 1st resurrection that leads to life and the 2nd resurrection that leads to condemnation. But in your view, that "condemnation" also eventually leads to life, 40,000+ years later. So you would have Jesus saying, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of life also, but later."


God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life. (Acts 11:18)

Repentance leads to life. So in your view, the wages of sin is not death, but postponed life.

This is why it seems you are saying that the impenitent will also live eternally.

In your view, people will be paying for their sins in the Lake of Fire, which you also equate to a re-education process that eventually leads to repentance. This process can take thousands of years.

But you say there may be those who can't fully pay off their sins even after 42,000 years (which translates to usury with a pretty high interest rate, since the longest life of sin we know was only 969 years long). These sinners get in because of the Jubilee limit, not because they have come to repentance. Am I understanding you correctly?

Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant with the sermonizing and thinking you were referring to me. Forgive me for making those comments afterwards about you "being annoyed with me". It shows that I was hurt by it; but yet it is not a reason to say those comments.

You know I was a little surprise after reading your post that you would say such things as I never read that sort of attitude from you. I should of stick to my initial gut feeling and re-read your post. But no I just reasoned with it that maybe I hit you on a hard day or touching too deeply on sensitive topics. Anyway, so sorry for this.




Since my post was already too long, I skipped explaining about the Jubilee law. So I understand why this "way outside the box" interpretation is very unfamiliar.


Nope! was that short enough of an answer

According to your understanding, Elle, the "lake of fire" is not a physically burning, destroying to ashes, place? If I remember correctly you interpret the lake of fire as being re-educated by the law? Is that your interpretation?

According to scripture: Those not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire . (Rev. 20:15)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire as well as the false prophet. (20:10)

Mattherw 25:41 says Those who aren't Christs are told to Depart from Him, they are cursed, and sent into the fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Yes. Those in the broad road will have to undergo destruction[be humbled] before finding life.



Where? And how?

Am I understanding your interpretation correct : Do you understand Jesus means only the few who enters in the way that leadeth to life will have immortal life? If so do you also believe that all the believers that entered the broad way never entered into the life path from the beginning? I believe that all the believers in the broad road have entered the life path that starts at Passover representing their conversion; however they never finished the path and have not entered the Pentecost and/or the Tabernacle spiritual growth level as opposed to the Overcomers that finished the complete LIFE PATH.

We see this dimension expressed by Jesus who worded that these believers (servants) that “knew his lord’s will” but “didn’t prepare himself… shall be beaten with many stripes” Lk 12:47 They are not prepared because they didn’t go thru Pentecost or/and Tabernacle. Jesus doesn’t say these servant will be annihilated or they will be killed but will suffer some lashes(whatever this means spiritually in application).

According to other parables, they will receive a lesser fate compare to the believers that are found beating their fellowservants. Jesus said of those that they will find their fate with the unbelievers.

Both of these fate is for the believers in the broader road that leads to destruction(=humbling) via some lashings or paying the full sum of their debts like the unbelievers. I will cover this more later.



I believe John 5:28,29 is about ONLY the 2nd resurrection
1- Do note that the Greek word for condemnation is krisis that means judgment. So this second group will face the judgment talked about in Rev 20 where all their works will be judged.

2-Notice Jesus says "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves". He's talking about an hour [or a point in time] when ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice. This can not be the 1st resurr. where only a few hears His voice. It can only be the 2nd resurrection. There’s a thousands years between the 1st resurr. and the 2nd. I don’t think that hour lasted 1000 year either.

This "ALL" of the 2nd resurr. has two groups:
1) the “good” to the resurr. of life -- the believers that didn't make it at the first resurrection and
2) the “evil” to the resurr. of judgment -- the unbelievers.

Jesus has presented many parables about the first group who He refers to as a “servant”, or "wicked servant" or “evil servant”. As you well know a servant is a believer.

Why the same wide road Believers are said to be “good” in John 5:28,29 while “wicked” in other Parables?

Why is Jesus referring to them as "wicked" in other parables and in John 5 here as "good". I don’t really know; but two things came to mind:
1)maybe Jesus is referencing these two groups by our own preconceived terms we have towards believers verses unbelievers. This is not unusual as He did the same thing when He gave the parable of the servant who was given 1 talent and buried it thinking His master was hard and reaped what was not his own without Jesus correcting His misrepresentation of Himself in this parable(Mat 25:24).
2)maybe the “good” and the “wicked” is not the difference between the believers and the unbelievers; but rather those that do “good works” versus those that do “evil works” without making a differentiation if they are believers or unbelievers. We all are guilty of doing “evil works” even the overcomers that made it to the 1st resurr. Also we know that many believers do not hear-obey the voice of God, whereas some unbelievers hear it while fulfilling the law without professing Jesus is Lord. So it could be that the “good” and the “wicked” is separated in terms of if we forgive our neighbor their debt towards us, nor mis-treat severily (either physically or mentally) especially those that are under our charge.

Narrow road that lead to life of the 1st ressur. and the Resurrection of life in the 2nd

In Mat 7 we have a division amongst the believers into two groups : the “fruitful” believers versus the “unfruitful” believers or as said in Mat 25:32,33 the Lords divides the believers between the sheep and the goats. The fruitful sheep believers are raised at the 1st resurr. while the “goats” believers resurrects at the 2nd resurr. where we find another division. This time it is “the ALL that are in the grave” that are divided again into 2 groups: the good and the wicked. The “good” (I’m assuming they are the believers) are raised to a resurrection of life while the “wicked” (assuming unbelievers) to a resurrection of judgment. I think the meaning of “resurrection of life” is the same as the “narrow gate that leadeth to life” found in Mat 7. The only difference is the group in Mat 7 received it before the Millennium while those in John 5 received it sometime after the Millennium after receiving their lashing(Luk 12:47,48) and having their “good” works tested against the foundation Jesus has laid(1Cor 3:10-13) that led to their destruction(humbling).

The “good” receives their reward and Life after being tested and receiving their Lashings

Do note that Paul says in 1C 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” So this text talks about the judgment of the believers or the “good” group where their works will be tested. If all their works are burned because it didn’t come from the Lord’s foundation and came from “stubbles” or “hay”(=flesh), he himself shall be saved because of that fire. The fact the person is not annihilated by that fire; prove that it is not a literal fire but spiritual that represents the Holy Spirit involved in this testing and purifying process of this believer. He may have some good works proven by this fire; but even if he ends up with none whatsoever that stood the test; he himself will be saved by that fire.

Nobody knows how long this testing last and the application of this text and the lashings constitute as this is not reveal in scripture and is reserve to be known during that age. But whatever time it will take to have this done, these two events will bring these believers into full maturity(=Tabernacle) and will receive their reward(some level of responsibility in the Kingdom) then and will receive the immortal and incorrupt body(=life).

Some believers receives their reward and are tormented with the unbelievers

Now some of these servants-beleivers raised at the 2nd resurr. were found mistreating others and the Bible is specific that their fate is with the unbelievers. In Mat 24:49 & Luk 12:46 we read the evil servant that "smite his fellowservants" the Lord shall "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers".
Another type is read in Mat 18 where Jesus speaks of a man that was forgiven a large debt; but then after didn't forgive the small debt of his fellowservant. The text doesn’t use the words that he beated him. But he probably did for the text says “he layed his hands on him and took him by the throat”(v.28) Regardless if he did or not, his judgment was with the unbelievers also by saying the Lord "delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto to him. "(v.34)
Do notice that in Mat 18 the evil servants was not physically destroyed but his sentence was to pay his entire debt. This is what is symbolized in the law of Jubilee. This would require another long post to go thru the scriptures describing the law of Jubilee. But this is the only place in the whole law where Redemption is defined – within the context of the law of Jubilee. We find many other laws in the Jubilee including paying their debt by being sold for their servitudes. Also it talks about not mistreating the servants-slaves that have rights including every 7th year a sabbatical rest. If the slaves are mistreated the law requires that he be freed. Basically the law of Jubilee is the frameworks and foundation where all other laws given to Moses works into.


Well, they have to undergo destruction[humbling] before they receive life.

Yes repentance leads to life.

And the wages of sin is death(Rom 6:23). Paul had covered this in Rom 5 that because of the sin and the act of one man(=Adam v.12, 15, 17, 18) – death was imputed to ALL MEN. This is the wages of sin that we carried such judgment since the sin of Adam by being made MORTAL. This is the 1st death that was imputed on all mankind because of the sin of Adam.

However, this was reversed by Jesus by imputing His righteousness & LIFE by the act of one man(=Jesus Christ v.15,16,17,18,19). Paul repeated this basic truth in so many ways to make sure we wouldn’t miss it. However, it looks that most still have missed it.

Life is postponed yes and no.

No -- Legally speaking concerning the Father’s point of view, the righteousness of Christ was successfully imputed on all men at the cross. Before the cross, we have in Isaiah 45 the Lord swore saying His word shall not return empty, that “every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Surely, shall one say “In the Lord have I righteousness and strength” .

The Lord, foreknowing the future, knew that He will lead all men to repentance from the beginning when He drew up His plan of salvation. He said it in so many other ways starting to Abraham saying His seed will bless all the families of the earth. He also been swearing that the whole earth will be filled with His Glory since Moses if not earlier. He repeated this at least 5 times in the Bible and I think much more than this.

Yes – the reality of it is postponed in time and will be done in 3 harvests:

1)the Barley company after 6000 years at Jesus 1st coming;
2)the Wheat company after the 7000 years at the Great White throne;
3)the grape company after 49,000 years at the Great Jubilee.

7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and there be many that enter that gate:
7:14 Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and there be few that find it.

The broad way -- is the easy way -- it requires no real commitment. It is the door of self gratification, and leads to destruction -- complete destruction, utter destruction, not just humbling.

The contrast is obvious--
One gate and path leads to life
The other gate and road leads to destruction.



Due to sin the human race all ended up on the road to utter destruction.

Christ came to save the lost -- *the perishing" human race which was facing nothing but utter destruction, oblivion --
Without Christ that was the only end point for humanity.

Christ OPENED another door -- the narrow gate that leads to life!

Because the Savior came -- we have a choice--
Continue to slide down the broad road to destruction,
or enter the narrow gate that leads to life.
That choice is presented in scripture as two gates. or doors.

Christ is that DOOR which few find!
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

To enter that door, one must "die" that "spiritual" death Paul speaks of --
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That is the "dying daily" that Paul is speaking about. It is not the "second death" it is a dying to sin and living with Christ that MUST take place in this PRESENT LIFE.

It is KNOWING that Christ paid for our sins, (He took our punishment) and we long to be like Him in character -- loving Him.

The born again experience must happen in this life.



What you (Elle) are describing sounds like a revised version of purgatory -- forced repentance, (even though you say it's not forced) but there is no other way of looking at it with thousands of years of being "punished" for one's sins and of brain washing till the person breaks and accepts God.

They are not impenitent for once all truth is expose and they receive their judgment fitted for their crimes; then I believe is then Isaiah 45:23-24 will be fulfilled by bowing their knees(=submission) and swearing allegiance saying "the Lord is my righteousness and strength".



This is what I understand Jesus said in the following :

-in Ex 22:3 that "he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold", This is the basic law for the judgment of sin.

-in Mat 18:25 "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all hat he had, and payment to be made" You cannot be more direct than that and this comes from the mouth of Jesus. I believe this is a reference to Adam and goes with what Paul says in Rom 5 concerning the imputation of the MORTALITY on all mankind. Because of Adam sin's the whole humanity was sold under sin for Adam sin.

-in Rom 7:14 -- Paul says "I am carnal, sold under sin". Yes, Paul debt has been redeemed by Jesus when he said that; however the debt is still not cancel and He now works for Jesus instead for working under the bondage of sin. But he is still have a debt that his sin incurred; but he's paying it to His redeemer now. That's why he refers himself to a "servant[slave] of Jesus Christ"

-in Mat 18:30 of the man after being forgiven his large debt that didn't forgive the small debt of his fellowservants Jesus said "cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt" I can only see that the prison is the lake of fire, and this believer will be required to pay his entire debt. I don't if this judgment is so because he beated his fellowservants or only because he couldn't forgive the small debt. It's possible that it is based only on not being able to forgive for the Lord will judge you with the same measure you will judge others.

-in Deut 28:68 "ye shall be sold unto your enemies" Here the Lord applies this basic "sold" law on a corporate level for the nation of Israel whenever they were disobedient. If you read in the book of Judges, we see this exact wording "he sold them ...to..enemies"Jud 2:14 "he sold them ..to..Mesopotamia" Jud 3:8 "he sold them..to..Canaan" Jud 4:2 "he sold them...to the Philistine"Judge 10:7; The Lord sold Israel 6 times in total to other nation before they cried for to be ruled by a Man instead for they thought the Lord's judgment-correction was too severe. That did divert them being sold to nation somewhat, but then as you know on the 7th time Israel were "sold" to the Assyrian with the destruction verdict. So here we see the Lord gave small correction (judgments) before a bigger sentence - the destruction. However, once deported, Isaiah emmediatly talk about the restoration of Natural Israel in his letter. I do not see destruction equating to annihilation in scriptures even for the corporate level despite they underwent some physical destruction. Anyway the point that is being made right now is the "sold" judgment-concept is all over the Bible. That's the way the Lord dealt with His people in the past as prescribed in the law.

-in Lev 25:23 "the land shall not be sold for ever". This symbolic term "land" really apply to our body for we are made from the dust of the ground. Adam was named after the ground('adamah) he was taking from. The law of Jubilee talks about "returning to your possession" the spiritual application of the law is not a return to a physical piece of property on earth; it is about returning to our immortal & incorrupt body-land state Adam had before he fell -- the glorified body -- that the feast of Tabernacle pre-figures. This is the meaning of the Lord oath in Num 14 "But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with thee glory of the Lord".(see also Ps 72:19; Is 6:3; Hab 2:14) He's referring to all the people of the earth in these passages.

-Also the law of Jubilee talks about "all debts are cancelled" when the Jubilee time rolls over.

-Deut 15:12 Whoever is sold shall serve 6 years, then "the 7th year thou shalt let him go free from thee." This law goes hand in hands with Lev 25:4 where the Lord said to give the land a Sabbatical yearly rest. But after the Sabbath yearly rest, the slaves returns to work to pay for their debt that is owed, until it is fully paid or until the Jubilee rolls over. Whatever comes first. This is why the first Millennium after Jesus 2nd coming will be the first "Sabbath Millennium" cycle of the Jubilee. The Great White Throne judgment comes after the first Sabbath Millennium is completed. This is when the real judgment-business is addressed with these two groups of people raised at the 2nd resurr.

v.23 "...for the land in mine" Since the Lord is the owner of our body (and also the earth) no-one has the right to sell themselves "to the devil" for eternity. If we signed such contract, well the Lord trumps it with His law of Jubilee because He both owns the devil and us and no such deal is lawful.


As you know I did not equate the lake of fire as a "re-education process". The lake of fire is the execution of the sentenced issued at the Great White throne.

The "inhabitants learning righteousness when judgment is in the land"(Is 26:9) is a by-product of this judgment. This is the basic principle our own children learns also to do right when we corrects them.

The primary purpose of the lake of fire is to establish the lawful order in the land by fulfilling all of these :

-bringing justice to the victims for the damages incur,
-giving a chance for the offender to make it right to the victim with useful work towards paying for their debt,
-reconciling the victim with the offender,
-and to restore the offender

All of these goals are part of this "esbablishing the lawful order". And this can only be done justly by addressing sin with a rightful judgment that fits their crimes (the sentenced of restitution is just -- not less, nor greater than the damage incured) according to the law of judgments already given to Moses.

Do notice what the Lord says in Isaiah 26:10 "Let favour[mercy] be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD."

Overall, the last 6000 years, mercy was shown to the wicked, both to the wicked believers and the unbelievers. Today we can all witness and conclude that it did not produce righteousness or respect for the Lord with all this time or with all our increasing advance knowledge. We see this principle also while raising our own children. If we do not correct[bring judgment] their behavior; their behavior will get worst. If our judgment is not just and too harsh; it will not produce respect towards us. It is very important that our judgment is very fair to lead our children to respect us and to come to obey us and to learn the right way. Personally, what I have learnt that giving them a time of mercy with warning is a necessary foundation before bringing them our judgment-correction.



???Usury. A forgiveness of all debt is not a usury.



I'm not understanding your question.

-"the longest life of sin was only 696" -- Ok I think I got a little what you are saying. (Not that it matters, but wasn't it 969? or something around there). Remember that death and hades was cast in the lake of fire(Rev 20:14) before the people were cast in(Rev 20:15). Thus these people will live the fullest time of 42,000 years until the Great Jubilee rolls over. No one will die again the 1st death. Despite they will be kept alive all these years, they won't have their immortal and uncorrupt body until the Great Jubilee comes. Thus they will still struggle with the "flesh" and will learn to hear-obey the Lord's voice like any other people that received their inheritance before them.


I don't understand what you mean with "get in because of the Jubilee limit".

Remember they have come to repentance before being cast into the symbolic lake of fire. When someone repents & submit to the Lord, it doesn't mean all the laws are automatically written in our hearts. We all know that. We are all [supposively] learning to hear-obey the Lord.

There is a physical birth and a spiritual birth[born of the Spirit].
There is a physical death and a spiritual death[death of the mind].
There is a physical destruction and a spiritual destruction[destruction of the pride].

These are all biblical concepts talked about all over scriptures.



I have responded to this already two times. This is the last since there is no point in just repeating ourselves over and over again. I have understood your point of view and I think by now you know mine.

When Paul(or yourself) dies daily[submission of the mind to the will of God], you do not become a vegetable. What I think is totally unreasonable you stubbornly apply a physical death of the mind(soul) to an obvious spiritual death reference of the (mind)soul that we Christian should undergo everyday like Paul. Makes no sense.



BTW. Have you ate the physical flesh and drank the physical blood of Jesus? If not you have no life in you.

AV Jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Well during the Millennium is a time to establish the kingdom by which will start small and grow into a mountain and that mountain will fill the whole earth (Dn 2:36) There will be some teachings as any denomination do while on an evangelistic ministry. But the real learning of Righteousness will happen when the Judgment will come on the earth AFTER the Millennium.

I don't think there will be much judgment at Jesus 2nd coming beside all the nations flowing to the Kingdom to learn the wisdom and judgments of the Lord as said in Isaiah 2:2.

Now if all dies at Jesus 2nd coming like you believe and our Churches teaches, who will the Priests rule over during the Millennium? Where will be the nations and the People mentioned in Ezekiel 42-44 that the Priest will intercede on their behalf? Which people will flow to the mountain of the Lord in Isaiah 2:2? People from other planets?


You may disagree. That's ok.


You stubbornly do not want to admit the obvious which makes you sound very unreasonable while exposing your heart idol despite scriptures.

The obvious : Paul didn't die a physical death ; thus it must be a spiritual -- like the submission of the mind to the will of the Lord. Connection with Ezekiel -- soul(mind) must die = same spiritual death Paul dies daily.


hmmm...So you say the 1st death and the 2nd death is the same???

Do you believe that the 1st birth and the 2nd birth is the same too?

And what type of death did Paul died daily ??? the 3rd death?

I thought the Lake of Fire was for the purpose of learning what people didn't learn the first time around. I clearly have no clue what you're proposing. For my sake, please explain what will literally happen from the 2nd coming and onward; only say "lake of Fire" if you actually mean a lake made of fire. I'm obviously confused, so please keep it simple for me. Thanks.

True, and I discussed these things.

That spiritual "dying to sin" and "rebirth in Christ" must take place IN THIS LIFE.
It must take place BEFORE the first death, (before that death we witness every time we go to a funeral).


That's where you leave the "track".
Your mistake is thinking the "spiritual death" isn't something that takes place in this present life, but in some other life.

Yet everything Paul writes about the "spiritual death to sin" and "spiritual rebirth to life in Christ" is urging people to experience this NOW, TODAY.

Due to sin the whole human race was on the road to utter destruction.

Christ came to save the lost -- He came to save the perishing" human race which was facing nothing but utter destruction, oblivion --
Without Christ that was the only end point for humanity.

Christ OPENED another door -- the narrow gate that leads to life! He made it possible for every person to be saved, (that doesn't mean everyone will be saved) His sacrifice is all sufficient, He supplies all the merits, He supplies the Holy Spirit.
Everything we need, He supplies -- but we must chose to accept it. He will not force it. The choice is ours, and many will sadly reject it.

Because the Savior came -- we have a choice--
We can choose to ignore Christ's great and awesome gift and continue to slide down the broad road to destruction,
or we can enter the narrow gate that leads to life.
That choice is presented in scripture as two gates. or doors.

Christ is that DOOR which few find!
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

To enter that door, one must "die" that "spiritual" death Paul speaks of --
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


That is the "dying daily" that Paul is speaking about.
It is the conversion the dying to sin and living with Christ that MUST take place in this PRESENT LIFE.

The born again experience must happen in this present life.
Don't be deceived into thinking there is a future life in which to make that choice.

2 Cor. 6:2 in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts,


In your theory Elle,
Whether you realize it or not, you deny the need of the spiritual death to sin in this life.

Thus you are actually the one confusing the spiritual with the physical "death".

That's because you apply "the spiritual death" which is dying to sin and being alive in Christ which scripture urges us to do IN THIS PRESENT LIFE,
as being the meaning of "the destruction" of the wicked at the end.

You turn an obvious physical death into a "spiritual death", and by doing this you actually deny the need to die that "spiritual death" in this present life.





John 8:24

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Why is that so important for Jesus to say?
Is Jesus using the word "die" spiritually, or literally?
It's obviously literal -- because to "die to sin is to live in Christ", that is spiritual.
To die in your sins without Christ is to die physically -- and that does not lead to life, it leads to utter destruction.


The first and second death in scripture are NOT spiritual -- they are literal.
The first death you see at every funeral.
The second death is also physical.

I see you did not respond to the "lake of fire" texts.
They can't be referring to the "soul cleansing fire"
the lake of fire is a literal second death.

TEXTS--

According to scripture: Those not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire . (Rev. 20:15)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire as well as the false prophet. (20:10)

Matthew 25:41 says Those who aren't Christ's are told to Depart from Him, they are cursed, and sent into the fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

From this we realize that those who "died in their sins" at the first death (the one we witness at funerals) end up in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.



It's not me that's applying Paul's words of the spiritual dying to sin, being alive in Christ to the physical death experienced in the first and second death.
The "spiritual death" and the physical second death are two separate things.
What doesn't make sense is
in not realizing that those who see no need to respond to Christ's call to die to sin, and rise to newness of life in Christ, IN THIS PRESENT LIFE, will not have eternal life, but will suffer a literal eternal death.



And that is another major DIFFERENCE --
The Millennium is not a "second chance" time here on earth.
If Christ's kingdom has not taken root in a person's life IN THIS PRESENT LIFE, it will be too late.

That stone in Daniel 2 utterly destroys in one smashing blow -- "Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them"




There will be HUGE judgment at the 2nd coming.
Any Christ that appears on earth to set up a "growing" literal kingdom here -- WILL BE SATAN.

When the true Christ comes it will be overwhelming event.
The saved are resurrected in the first resurrection, the saved living, changed in a twinkling of an eye to immortal bodies and together they rise to meet Christ in the air. (1 Cor. 15:50-58; 1 Thess. 4:16-17)
Rev. 19:21 And the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,




Your view of God's domain is very, very narrow.
First off -- all do not die at the 2nd coming, the wicked DIE at the second coming.
Multitudes of saved from every tribe, tongue and nation will be resurrected -- they will be very much alive and they will ascend with Christ to heaven. Where will be the nations flowing to the New Jerusalem to worship God? They will be in heaven during the 1000 years. Later the city will descend to earth and the earth will be recreated.

As for Ezekiel's temple -- the literal temple described there was meant for the pre-cross period, it was never built.

The New Jerusalem takes it's place.

Rev. 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

OK. I think this is a good timely request. I thought I’ve said too much already but I’m sure there’s things that just doesn’t add up to the interpretation we’ve been taught from the Church.

My aim in these coming 4 posts is not repeat what I’ve already mentioned, but to add concepts that may clarify the things already said but this time with more of a focus to the law. It is the law that we failed to study and meditate on by which is one of the main reason why we are in darkness. Of course I’m only going to give a quick overview and make it as short as possible of what I understand what scripture is saying. Nor am I saying I got it all figured it out and got it straight. I do hope you guys can point whatever sound too stretchy.

I won’t start from the 2nd coming as requested, I felt it is important to start from our current captivity to Babylon that I labeled "the pre-2nd coming". The reason why is it explains briefly the basic debt-to-slave-judgment law and will gives a start to understand how the Jubilee law works. I’ve already written up to #9 but it needs revision and getting more of scriptures references. I may be able to deliver these 4 posts hopefully before Monday. Well that’s my aim.

Here is a brief overview of what will [somewhat] LITERALLY happen from pre-2nd coming and onward:

A. Pre-2nd Coming AGE
1. Captivity to Babylon :
2. Captives’ Repentance & Fall of Babylon :
3. Transfer of Authority :

B. The Rule of the Melchisedek Order in the Millennium AGE
4. The 1st Resurrection -- only The Rulers-Overcomers :
5. Jesus 2nd Coming & War :
6. The Lake of fire -- The Beast and the False prophet Cast Alive
7. The Sabbath Millennium :

C. The Judgment of the Dead AGE
8. The 2nd Resurrection :
9. The War
10. The Lake of Fire: Adversary and False Prophet Burn
11. The Great White Throne Judgment
12. The Submission & Swearing Allegiance
13. The Lake of Fire : Death and Hades Cast in

D. The Judgment Execution AGE
14.The Lake of Fire: Execution of Judgment sentence of the People
15. The Great Jubilee : Debt canceled, everyone returns to their possession[=Glorious Body]
16. All is Under Jesus feet, then the Son also…that God may be all in all

The format of the Posts will be the following :

# Event : a as brief as possible description

Law : related laws

Scriptures : related texts

Other Readings : If needed I will give a links mainly to my own post here if I had address these in the past. If the subject is something complicated that wasn’t touch previously in this forum and there is too many thing to address, I may give a link to Myron’s(an SDA) post on AO (if he has address the matter) as he’s been studying quite fervently the law for the past 14+ years and knows it better than I. He is easier to read than I.


Pre-2nd Coming AGE


1. Captivity to Babylon : When the Lord puts a nation in captivity, it is an execution of a judgment issued from His heavenly Court throne. In our corrupt Babylonian juristic system we send offenders to prison when the crime is too great. For less serious crime a fine is typically issued that requires immediate payment. If you do not have that money to pay the fine you end up in jail.

In the Lord's juristic system in the TYPE(law of Moses), fine are also issued for crimes, but people are not sent to jail if they cannot pay their fine. The people are “sold” to “any redeemer". This is not the close-kin redeemer, nevertheless still a “redeemer” in its definition of the word for he purchased the debt-note. I will address the close-kin redeemer at event #14(the Lake of Fire: execution of the Judgment for the people). The close-kin redeemer has an additional right compare to "any redeemer". The redeemer pays the fine in exchange for your labor under their authority.

Basically you become their "slaves". However, this "redeemer" has to function according to the Jubilee law and other laws that says that the "slave" :
a)has rights,
b)very good vacation(7th day Sabbath, 7th year Sabbath, and all feasts days),
c)should not be abused,
d)should be loved and treated as any other citizens, and e)should be freed on the 49th year despite if he has paid his debt in full or not.

Spiritually speaking, a “slaves” is someone that works for someone else’s business and learns how that family operation and how they successfully bears "fruits". A God fearing family of the would treat the slave as a son until he can be a sole mature citizen capable of bearing his own “fruits” for the kingdom.

The Jubilee law does not only apply for the law breakers such as criminals & offenders, but for anyone found in a debt situation that can result from : a) bad family business-land management; b)misfortune as death or injury of husband, sons; c)natural disaster losing crop, animals, infrastructures; d)war captives; e)purchased slaves; and f)even your own children. Basically, the Jubilee law addresses all that doesn't bear the "fruits" that the Lord requires. Thus the criminals are under the same treatment as any other countrymen that has a debt because of lack of "fruits". In the firstfruits laws, the Lord's requires "the best" of our fruits due without delay during the Feasts(spiritual growth level). If these are not rendered to Him; thus it is viewed as a theft towards the Lord.

On a corporate national level, the Lord will judge a nation and will execute the judgment by applying the same "if he have nothing, then he shall be sold" law. Spiritually, money is not what the Lord really requires, but “fruits”. So on a corporate level the "redeemer" becomes another nation. The foreign nation has no idea that they are a "redeemer" and that Israel was under judgment. All they know is “gee we have dominion over Israel -- we're going to profit from them ”. However, “purchasing” the “debt note” from Israel is not the greatest thing, for this means the nation-redeemer is now responsible to deliver those expected “fruits” . By which they will not and they also will go under judgment . Without going any further into this, what is important to point out here as it will relate to the lake of fire of #14, is that the "selling-captivity" resulting from the execution of the judgment sentence on a corporate level on Israel or on a individual level, is that it took off from their back the responsibility to produce the required fruits for the time in captivity and gave the nation or individual time to re-coop and ponder on their sin and how they end up “in captivity”. Being employed, all their needs are met, and they are in a loving family environment to learn a trade to become productive. So this "selling-captivity" is really mercy embedded in the Jurisdiction system of the Lord. The responsibility to bear those fruits is on the redeemer.

Now, we have mention in the past post, that the Lord corrects first those He “loves” as related to “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated”. Scriptures says a father that corrects a son is love towards the son. Paul says “if ye be without chastisement, ….then are ye bastards, and not sons.” Heb 12:8 The point here is on the corporate-nation level, the Lord mostly spent His time correcting Israel FIRST as oppose to hardly any correction towards the other nations. That's why Israel was corrected so many times in the book of Judges. He put Israel 111 years total in captivity under 6 different nations versus to around 200 years in freedom in the land of Canaan before the reign of King Saul came. These judgments-correction were acts of a Father who was disciplining that nation for a great purpose. And He's not done with them.

Now with this background, let’s get to the 7th captivity to Old Babylon. Despite the rise of Babylon was to bring judgment-correction on the house of Judah, all other nations around Canaan were put under the same captivity-sentenced. It is the same with the current captivity to Mystery Babylon. Despite this on-going captivity(since old Babylon) -- its aim was to correct the Israelite-Christian; but it brought the whole world under the hard captivity of Mystery Babylon too.

Law : Firstfruits laws (Ex 22:29;23:16-19; Num 18:12...). Laws of tribulation found in Deut 28 & Lev 26 that basically says -- "If you disobey I will sell you to foreign nation and you will become the tail." The Jubilee law in Lev 25. And the Basic debt note - selling judgment law in Exodus 22.

Scriptures : The book of Judges: Israel was “sold” to other nations 6 times. Daniel: the extend of the 7th captivity from Babylon to Medo-Persia, Greeks, Roman, and little horn. The requirement to deliver fruits of the Kingdom is found vineyard prophecies in Isaiah 5:1-7 and Mat 21:28-41.

Other Reading : Debt Note Redemption


2. Captives Repentance & Fall of Babylon : Repentance and submission to the judgment-correction from the Lord is what breaks any captivity to a foreign nation.

Law : AV Lv 26:41 "And [that] I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob,...Isaac,...Abraham... and I will remember the land... 46 These [are] the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Notice the underline stating that the humbling and acceptance of the punishment(judgment-correction) is what will free them from being under the authority of the foreign nation. Thus our release from Mystery Babylon is depended on this LEGAL requirement. I don't know if the repentance is required only from a small group of believers or should be at the nationwide, but my hunch as I see the events unfold, the Lord is working to bring this level of repentance nationwide. We will soon see what level of repentance is legally required so to free us from this 7th captivity.

Scriptures: If you study the book of Judges, take special notice of the texts that talk about the deliverance of Israel to every captivity by a sending a Judge-deliverer. You will notice that there was an increasing level of repentance required on the part of Israel before any deliverance.

Literally speaking we are still under this 7th captivity that extended under Mystery Babylon. Spiritually speaking we are still under captivity of the “Babylonian-carnal-confusion” false teachings & system that is not in favor of our growth unless the Lord is interested some individual cases.


3. Transfer of Authority : Daniel 2 shows the big statue by which represents the 4 beastly Kingdom. The world and Israel have been under captivity of the overall BEAST Empires since Babylon was given authority. Today we are at the time of the toes or feet. When the small stone (our deliver) strikes the statue and grinds the entire statue to dust(whatever time frame that takes); then scripture says this authority that these Beastly Kingdom had over the earth is transferred to the "Saints of the Most High"(Daniel 7). These are the overcomers, the King-Priesthood(Melchisedek Order) that will reign on earth(Dan 2:35; Rev 5:10; 20:6) during the Millennium.

Law: Joshua(=Jesus) & Priesthood(=Overcomers) enters Canaan(=the world). They enter Canaan with authority from above to rule over the nation while establishing the Kingdom of God in the promises land.

In Deut 34:9 their is a transfer of authority from Moses(symb. of Jesus 1st coming and His death) to Joshua(symb. of Jesus 2nd coming before entering the promised land=world).

Scriptures : The book of Joshua and Daniel 2 & 7.


4. The 1st Resurrection of the Overcomers : The first resurrection happens at the Feast of trumpet. However, it is at the Feast of Tabernacle those alive are changed. So there's a small gap of time that encompassate the Day of Atonement-blowing of Jubilee trumpet for a purpose. This is a big subject with many scriptures. I am working on a post detailing this that reaches its climax at the 8th day of Tabernacle as a request from Mark. But for the subject at hand, it is important to note that the 1st resurrection is a restrictive resurrection that calls only the Leaders of the Kingdom.

Rev 20:4-6 “And I saw the thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the soul of those who had been beheaded…who had not worshipped the beast…; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection;….they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ”

Law: The command given to Moses to construct two trumpets(Num 10:4) which suggest two resurrection. The blowing of one trumpet summoned the priests and leaders (Num 10:4); whereas two trumpets blown summoned the whole congregation(Num 10:3).

Scriptures : The book of Joel, texts relating to 1st resurrection and relating to the reign of Melchisedek.

Other Reading : I will start another discussion about this subject and the 2nd coming with a focus on the 8th day laws and Tabernacle but will provide a link in this discussion (link) where Mark requested it.

I did a mistake last post by adding Event#4 with section A. I have rewritten it by including the Tabernacle TYPE from the story of Elijah and Joel 2 as a base to express this entire section B.

I’m sorry for this post to be so long. There were so many things to address here. I think the other two section-post will be much shorter and simpler for me to write. If anyone only wants to read a summary of what I think the Literal of the Spiritual application will be – just go to the bottom of each event and read the “Literal :” headline.

We know the first coming of Jesus was an Antitype of the Spring Feast. Now we expect that His 2nd coming will revolve around the Fall Feasts. There’s many pattern of the fall Feast found in the Bible. I’m using mainly the Elijah story with Joel 2 as the template for my interpretation of this section. The other patterns gives other good information of these events that I don’t refer here but I will in this discussion (link).

After reflecting on the 2nd coming being linked to the fall feast, I have renamed the Millennium AGE of Section B as “the Tabernacle AGE” by which it represents the Corporate Church spiritual growth Level during the Millennium. I think the Church’s growth level is a better name that appropriately represents the “change” that each AGE(Aion, Olam) undergo.

Below is a briefing of each age with the focus of what level of anointment they received, what type of SWORD they acquire to evangelize the nations in their age time, and their success level. This comparison shows the necessity for the Tabernacle anointment before Jesus 2nd coming.

Passover AGE : It covers the time from Moses to Jesus 1st coming when the Corporate Church was only a spiritual Babe that is represented by the Passover Feast with its circumcision(=accepting Jesus as Lord) and baptism during their corporate Passover experience. They didn’t enter the Pentecost spiritual level when they first arrived at the foot of Sinai and heard the Lord’s voice. They only could handle hearing the 10Cs and then “stood afar off”(Ex 20:21). That day was Pentecost. The congregation backed up from the presence of the Lord ,“ And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. ”( Ex 20:19) It is true that hearing the Holy Spirit does kill our carnality of the flesh, but it never killed Moses physically when he “drew near the thick darkness were God was”(v.21) This resulted that Israel did not have the Sword of the Spirit when they entered Canaan; they only had the carnal sword. (see #5)This is the main reason why they failed miserably. It is interesting to note that the Lord coordinated Israel entrance in Canaan at Passover (Jos 5:10) showing their level of spirituality.

Pentecost AGE: From Pentecost to Jesus 2nd coming is when the Corporate Church received the Holy Spirit. When they came out of the upper room they had the sword of the Spirit by which 3000 men “died” (repented) that day with it. But because Pentecost is a Leavened Feast (Lev 23:17), they soon lost that powerful spiritual sword and the Church resorted back to the carnal sword as we have seen in the 1260years of RCC rules. The protestants treated the native Indians in America with the same carnal sword as the RCC and the Israelites. So no finger pointing. Nevertheless, this age represents an adolescent level of growth when we learn our Father’s business. Jesus expressed this level of faith-growth when He was around 12 years old as He was being trained by the Father before coming to the mature Priestly age of 30 to start His ministry. Also let us note that Paul said that the early Church only received an “earnest” deposit of the Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; 5:5; Ep 1:14) at Pentecost. It is at the Tabernacle fulfillment that the Church was to receive the FULL measure of the Spirit that will enable them to be successful. Thus the Passover Age and the Pentecost Age was not the appointed time and was an insufficient anointment to bring about the great commission to the World.

Tabernacle AGE : From Jesus 2nd coming to the Great White Throne Judgment AGE. Tabernacle is typified by living for 7 days inside a sukka(=tent=our body) made of living branches(=immortal robe). This is when the fullness of the Spirit is received by the Overcomers. That’s when they will receive that Sword of the Spirit and will not lose it and will succeed to fulfill the great commission.

B. Tabernacle AGE: The Rule of the Melchisedek Order

4. The 1st Resurrection of the Overcomers : The day of Trumpet was known by the Jewish circle as “the day of the Awakening Blast”. My view is the first resurrection happens at the Feast of trumpet. However, those that are alive are only changed at the 1st day of the Feast of Tabernacle. So there's a 14 days gap of time before these two groups of Overcomers get’s unified. The Day of Atonement is in between these two events. The purpose of the 1st resurr. event is to prepare the hearts of all the believers for the day of Atonement. It is important because it will bring much repentance amongst the Church leaders and members. I think Joel 2:12-18 indicates that the Church leaders will blow the Jubilee trumpet on that day. This is a big subject with many scriptures to go over. This is further detailed in another post that leads to the meaning of the 8th day of Tabernacle that Mark was interested in.

But for this subject at hand, it is important to note that the 1st resurrection is a restrictive resurrection that calls only the Leaders of the Kingdom as Rev 20:4-6 indicates.

Rev 20:4-6 “And I saw the thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the soul of those who had been beheaded…who had not worshipped the beast…; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection;….they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ”

Elijah Resurrect Widow’s Son :
Elijah’s fall feast pattern begins when he raised the widow’s son back to life (1Kg 17:17-24) and ends with the rain(=8th day of Tabernacle) that puts an end to the drought [of the word]. In between we have the showdown day in front of all the people so they could make a decision between believing the prophets of Baal or Elijah. This showdown was a Type of the Day of Atonement. I will develop this further down as I progress in the event #5 and #6. Coming back to the current event at hand, the widow nicely expresses the purpose of the 1st resurrection of the overcomers with these words: “Now by this [1st resurr.] I [the people will] know that thou art a man [the overcomer they meet] of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth”(1Kg 17:24). In brackets are my addition to link her words to the 1st ressur.

Law: The command given to Moses to construct two trumpets(Num 10:4) which suggest two resurrection. The blowing of one trumpet summoned the priests and leaders (Num 10:4); whereas two trumpets blown summoned the whole congregation(Num 10:3).

Scriptures : 1Thes 4:16(notice trumpet is in singular form); Rev 20:4-6; 1Kg 17:17-24; Joel 2:1-11;
Other Reading : I will start another discussion about this subject and the 2nd coming with a focus on the 8th day laws and Tabernacle but will provide a link in this discussion (link) where Mark requested it.
Literal : Only the leaders[Overcomers] are raised. Those that are alive are changed 14 days later at the 1st day of Tabernacle.

5. Jesus 2nd Coming & War : The 2nd coming of Jesus happens in the middle of the Feasts of Tabernacle. This is indicated with two events by Jesus in the NT. But before that, is the Day of Atonement that I will cover here. It’s connection with the Feast of Trumpet is shown in Joel 2:1-11. To be brief the witnessing of those raise at the 1st resurr. will prepare the hearts for the Day of Atonement.

The Elijah Day of Atonement Pattern

Elijah said to the people “How long will you hesitate between two opinions? ” (1Kg 18:21) This was a great day of decision where people sat on the fence not knowing who to believe or just too scared to side with Elijah--the heretic -- that went contrary to their leaders by which caused a severe drought [of the word of truth] in the land. So when the prophets of Baal finished their big show with no results; by evening came Elijah’s turn. He first repaired the altar with 12 stones. The number twelve represents the divine government. It represents the overcomers who will rule with Jesus by which the fire[=law] of God is to fall on. After Elijah told the people to poor 12 barrels of water over the sacrifice and altar which may represent that they do not lack the Spirit of truth; Elijah made a simple prayer. Then a big manifestation of fire came down from heaven making clear the Lord’s choice of prophet to the people. In the coming 2nd coming fall feast events. It will make clear to the people who the Lord’s chosen leaders are (1Kg 18:8,9) and fulfill what Elijah said in his prayer “that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again. ” This Elijah ministry to “turned their heart back again” is given in more details in Mal 4:6 “he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers”. I think the “children” here represents the people; whereas the “fathers” represents the spiritual “fathers” of the pass like Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, Paul, and etc… -- those resurrected from whom the Word of the Lord came from. Thus it could be that the purpose of the 1st resurrection of the Overcomers and the showdown was to restore the believers trust in the chosen [spiritual] leaders[fathers] from whom the Word the Lord has spoken thru them throughout history. So to bring a great revival in the Church so they would know that this “Elijah company” [those resurrected] is really “of God and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth”(1Kg 17:24).

Right after the showdown, Elijah said “seize the prophets of Baal” and they slew them. Remember above, there are two types of swords : a)the carnal one that literally cuts off the head, and b) the sword of the Spirit that “kills” men by bringing them to repentance. I believe that these false prophets will repent with more weeping than the others.

The believers will recognize the authority given to the Elijah-Melchisedek company among them and they will work with them to support the kingdom during the Millennium.

We know after Pentecost in the book of Acts, the disciples went to all the world to preach the gospel. Pentecost had a small anointment that still accomplished great things. Of course there were also many failures. And the failure was even greater for those from the Passover Church. In both of these ages the Church failed to manifest the Love and character of God. But with the greater anointment of Tabernacle, the Elijah-Melchisedek company will accomplish greater things with great success with no failures. The Love and character of God will be fully manifested and will become “the desire of all nations”(Hag 2:7).


The Elijah Tabernacle Pattern

In 1Kg 18:43 it says Elijah had to pray 7 times for the rain. He only prayed one time for the fire; then why the need to pray 7 times? Since we are seeing a Fall feast pattern starting with the resurrection followed by a day of decision, then I believe this 7 times points to the 7 days of Tabernacle. It is possible that Elijah prayed 7 times -- one time on each day. Definitely not something we can prove by scripture. So whether it was 7 times in one day or in 7 days, then afterwards Elijah sent a messenger to say to Ahab to hurry to go to Jezreel so the heavy shower wouldn’t stop him. (v.44)

Jezreel was the name of a place but it was also the prophetic name Hosea gave to his first-born son. This word have two meanings : God scatters and God sows. God scattered the House of Israel but really He sow them in the field (=world Mat 13:38; 44) so to reap a great harvest yet to come. So for Ahad[=the Chruch leaders] and Elijah[=Elijah-Melchisedek company] to both go to Jezreel[=Israel who is sown in the world] indicates that the great harvest starts after the 8th day of Tabernacle. As Hosea & Isaiah prophesied that lost Israel[=Jezreel] will be found and restored while many other nations will be gathered with them as we read in Isaiah 56:6-8.
6” Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath And holds fast My covenant; 7Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.” 8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, “Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered. ”


John 7:37-39 & Joel 2:23-32 : The Latter rain and the 8th day of Tabernacle Connection
In the 4 gospels, Jesus is recorded keeping the feast of Tabernacle only once found in John 7. Jesus told the disciple to go ahead of him to keep the feast. Then all of sudden Jesus appears in the middle of the Feast days in the midst of the Temple [an indication of timing & nature of Jesus 2nd coming]. Then on the 8th day of the feast, “ Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.(Jn 7:37-39) Jesus prophesies that from the belly of the believers “shall flow rivers of living water”. That’s quite a statement and notice the water that will quench that drought of the word spoken in Elijah, comes out of the belly of believers. My understanding is it is from the “belly”[=inward parts – from experience] of the Overcomers that the “rivers of living water” will flow out of. It is from them, who are the body of Christ, that the people of the world will get their thirst quenched for the living word of God.

The fall feast pattern shown in Joel 2 starting with a blowing of the trumpet in v. 1-11 that points to the 1st resurr. Then v.12-18 talks about “turn ye…fasting…weeping…. mourning” (v.12) that can only be referring to the Day of Atonement. There’s another blowing of the trumpet in v.15 that can only be the Jubilee trumpet that is blown only on the day of Atonement. The rain that comes afterwards in v. 23-32, according to the feast pattern, can only be the result of the 8th day of Tabernacle Feast like Jesus prophesy in John 7:38 which is also the same rain that comes after 7 times in the story of Elijah. All these 3 Fall Feast patterns ends with the rain.

Joel 2:23 make an association of the “rain “(moreh=teachers) with righteousness that some scholars have translated as “teachers for righteousness”. I think that is a correct translation that to me the 3 texts discussed above seems to be pointing to. And this rain is said in Joel 2:24-27 to cause much [spiritual]food in the land. Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 entirely in relation to the Pentecost event when the Holy Spirit(rain) came down on the people. Pentecost was only a dim picture of what will come at Tabernacle. In addition we read in Joel 3:12-16 specifying that it is the heathen that is the recipient of the rain and becomes awakened. That makes sense since the Elijah story points to the believer’s time to believe is at the day of Atonement; whereas the unbelievers is at the time at the 8th day of Tabernacle.

Jesus 2nd coming described in Rev 19 : Let’s now bring the story of Elijah, Joel 2, and what Jesus said in John 7 together with Jesus 2nd coming described in Rev 19.

“11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war….13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. ”

We all agree this is talking about Jesus 2nd coming. I put this event at the timing after the 8th day of Tabernacle. The army with Him, I believe is His Priesthood for they are ” clothed in fine linen”. Notice that His name is “The Word of God”. Usually the name God presents Himself symbolizes the purpose of His appearance and what He’s going to do. This view is supported in v.15 by saying that “out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword”. We know this represents the Sword of the Spirit. It is this sword that the Israelite lacked when they entered Canaan(=World). But the Melchisedek Priesthood will have the sword of the Spirit and will use it wisely to “smite the nations” with it. I don’t believe the nations will be killed physically for the sword is not a physical sword it is the tongue of Jesus = His Word. This prophesies of the greatest Evangelistic crusade that history will ever see.

The WAR at Jesus 2nd Coming : Since the 2nd coming of Jesus starts at a Sabbath Millennium, I do not think the works of men will be judge during that Millennium. Thus, I think the war in Rev 19:17-21 is about recognizing & accepting the Melchisedek Priesthood that the Lord has given the authority over all the earth. I have another Biblical source for this believe and it is based in understanding the purpose of the Judgment of Canaan back in Joshua’s time which is the Type of His 2nd coming. I won’t go into it here, but in brief the judgment was about usurping authority and not recognizing the Lord’s governing body.

Of course the heathen rulers, who weren’t with the believers during the Day of Atonement, will need some convincing to accept the Melchisedek Priesthood authority. Here we need to study the laws of wars describes in Deut 20 to know how the Lord proceeded in the past and according to His law. But briefly a holy war is always conducted by first giving an explanation of the Lord’s judgment, then offering a Peace resolution, giving time for the judged party to reflect and respond. If they accept the peace resolution they are not destroyed and are absorbed into the Kingdom.

These are online outlines based on what the law expresses of the Lord’s way. How the Melchisedek Priesthood will proceed under the Lord’s leading and when and on who (groups, nations, etc.???) will they engage is still to be known. But I think that the Lord will be wise declaring a peace resolution that will be very reasonable. But in the case that some will reject the resolution, then that’s when they need to face destruction[humility]. I don’t know how it will be.

Then if there’s a war necessary, as far as my understanding goes its not done by warring “against flesh and blood”(Eph 6:12). From what I’ve seen from the spiritual warfare conducted by the Church involve in the fall of Mystery Babylon, it was all done in the heavenly court. Not once, did it require any physical flesh to flesh type of warfare. It was all done via spiritual warfare and yet it was successful to bring Mystery Babylon the Great down before our eyes. That is a huge subject of its own that I won’t attempt to describe. Nor this is an easy subject for us to grasp. However those that are interested to read what I’m referring to can read the past spiritual warfare log that took place between 1981 – 2008 in the book Wars of the Lord.

Law: The book of Joshua & the Fall Feast pattern. The War will follow the ways of Deut 20.
Scriptures : Elijah fall feast pattern 1Kg 17 & 18; Joel 2 fall feast pattern, Jesus keeping the fall feast in John 7, and Jesus 2nd coming in Rev 19. Lies (false prophets) swept away by waters Is 28:17;
Literal : Jesus 2nd coming happens at the feast of Tabernacle and on the 8th day, the Overcomers receive the “rain” so they become “teachers of righteousness” to quench the thirst for the Word of God to the World. Jesus 2nd coming will be the greatest Evangelistic crusade that history will ever see. The judgment over the nations will be concerning accepting the Melchisedek Order authority. When war is required, it will be conducted according to Deut 20. If the peace treaty is rejected, then a spiritual warfare (resolve conflict in the Heavenly court) could be conducted so the Lord pronounced some sort of judgment that will be manifested on earth in some form and in His time.


6. The Lake of fire -- The Beast and the False prophet Cast Alive : Rev 19:20 says that the beast (=the Babylonian system) and the false prophet (=the system propaganda lying machine via mainstream media, movies, tempered historical account, etc..) that deceived the world will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone”. I don’t believe these false prophets here are the same as the ones in the Elijah story who where the false prophets hired by King Ahab’s(church Leaders) wife Jezebel. For Elijah story, I think it can also represent the false doctrines insides all denominations. Whereas the false prophets of Rev 19:20, are those that are employed by the beast(=the Babylonian system) to keep their system lying propaganda machine going that touches every sector of our society including the infiltration in our churches. The people that contributed to this machine and system can repent whereas the Beastly system and lies that this Babylonian machine produced and have become part of our thinking and works probably needs to be burn “alive”. This could means that the system and all these lies that makes up deeply our whole societies fabric and ways of living will need to be addressed and burned one by one as the people learn of the Lord's Kingdom ways exposing the futility of the beast system and lies throughout the Millennium.

Law: ?
Scriptures : Ezek 24:12
Literal : Perhaps the Beast System with its “Babylon’s lying propaganda machine” will be burn “alive”. For the way of life resulting from the beast system & lies is heavily embedded in society ways and programmed in our minds. It needs to be addressed and burned one by one as the people(the unbelievers) learn about the truth of God's Kingdom and His ways throughout the Millennium.


7. The Sabbath Millennium : Daniel 2:35 and the book of Joshua both tells us that the Kingdom of God was/will be establish a little at a time. Daniel 2:35 says that the Kingdom started as a stone that grew to become a great mountain, that increased in size until it filled the whole earth. This could mean that it will take the whole Millennium for the Kingdom to occupy the whole earth. It’s not going to happen in one day. As the living water comes out of the belly of the Overcomers(John 7:38), eventually it will re-hydrate all the land(=people) and will cause plenty of [spiritual]food(Joel 2:18-27) to grow for all.

The great mountain[=kingdom] of the Lord will be above all other mountains[=nations kingdoms] and the people shall want to go to the Lord’s great mountain and learn God’s law.

AV Isa 2:2 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. ”

Law: Function of the Priests to teach and intercede for the people in the law.

The Jubilee law does release all the slaves from having to pay their debt on the Sabbaths. Their debts are not cancelled, but it is a forebearance of debt on the 7th day, 7 feast days, 7th year, and 7th Millennium. They resume their slave-debt-working once these Sabbaths are over.

In the case of the slaves that refuses their freedom and returns to the house of their Master saying ” I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: ” Ex 21:5 is the prophetic type of the Overcomers. They refuse to be freed because they have learned to agree with their Master’s ways(laws) and found that His laws are good while being in captivity and have grown to love who He is. The “wife” represents the Church that the Lord gave him and the “children” are his fellow members. So the Master bore His slave’s ear to the door[=Jesus](Ex 21:6) by which represents the slaves ability to hear perfectly Jesus.

Jesus refers to Ex 21:5 in John 8:35-36 by saying “And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. ” A servant will leave the house once freed; but a son stays in His Father’s house for ever. The slaves that returns are Sons. Thus true freedom does not come when our captivity ends; and we are freed to go; but it is when we become Sons that agrees with their Father’s laws, ways, and business. He returns to His Master’s house forever to work along side with His Father in His business. The Priesthood works on the Sabbath much more than any other days of the week. And even more during the Sabbath year of rest for the law says the Master are not to let His slaves freed empty. They need to provide for their servants needs (their food, clothing, etc) that were freed. Thus we have the Overcomers and the repented Church “Levites” that will continue to work during the Millennium Sabbath in ministering towards bringing others to this ultimate freedom only found in Jesus.

Scriptures : Daniel 2:35; Isa 2:2-3;

Literal : The Lord’s Kingdom increases gradually over the entire Millennium. The Kingdom of God is above other Kingdoms and the people will flow to the Lord’s mountain to learn His laws.

///

Elle, that is quite a lot of detail, MORE THAN what was revealed to John. Aren't you afraid that you are adding to the Revelation of Jesus Christ?

According to the Book, the millennium begins with the capture of Satan and ends with his release. The idea is that for a 1000 years, truth will triumph. We know this because concomitant with the capture of Satan, is the beginning of the reign of Christ alone; and with Him, a VERY special resurrection:

"Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4)

ONLY those who had been beheaded are raised to reign with Christ: NO ONE ELSE, until the end of the millennium.

My question to you is: do you plan on being beheaded, can you bring the days of the Beast and False Prophet into your lifetime, can you resist the Mark of the Beast that is not in your world? If not, then you are not part of the those that reign with Christ during the millennium. I'm sorry. But if your name remains in the Lamb's Book of Life, at the end of the millennium, you will inherit eternal life; otherwise not. Not everyone is saved; as it is written, "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire -- this is the second death." (Rev. 20:15,14)

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Jesus set the pattern of those who will be raised. Was Jesus beheaded?

Maybe, just maybe the book of Revelation is symbolic. Have you ever thought of that? Isn't there enough indications of that?

Have you ever read what the Lord Himself said to Aaron and Myriam in Number 12:1-8? He said He speaks to prophets in dark Speeches (riddles[=symbolism to be solve]) (v.8).

Well if you say we have to take the Revelation of Jesus Christ literally then --- Have you ate Jesus flesh and drank His blood yet? If not you will not be raised up. (John 6:54) And most of those that were literally beheaded, probably 100% of them didn't eat Jesus flesh or drank His blood. So I think there's many problems with your interpretation rule.

To me the beheading in Rev 20:4 means an overcomer needs to loose its own head by receiving a new mind & will -- the mind of Christ; thus receiving a new HEAD. Jesus is the HEAD of the body of overcomers.

///

There are two resurrections, separated by a millennium: the SPECIAL resurrection at the beginning, and the GENERAL resurrection at the end. You are obviously not part of the first (unless you plan on beheading yourself), but that in no way affects your salvation, and shouldn't bother you at all. Those are special people to God and Christ with whom He reigns. John 21:21-22 is worth considering, "Peter, seeing [John], said to Jesus, 'But Lord, what about this man?' Jesus said to him, 'If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.'"

If you hold fast, you will be raised AFTER the millennium to receive your reward of eternal life. Take courage in that as a promise that will not fail. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire -- this is the second death." (Rev. 20:15,14)

Isn't your name written in the Book of Life? Then be faithful and it will remain. If not, you will surely die. Not everyone is saved. See John 3:16. ONLY the faithful will shine like the stars forever.

///

So there are some raised who do not have a new mind and will (and not referring to after the millennium)?

No -- I believe that ALL that are raised at the 1st resurrection will be "beheaded"[spiritually speaking]. For sure some will had suffered a literal form of beheaded death before the grave, but most not. I do not believe that a literal beheading before death is a requirement to attain the 1st resurrection like James is proposing. To me it just doesn't add up with many other scriptures. If that would be so then that would means many like David, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Paul, John, etc... won't make it just because they didn't die with a physical literal head chopping?

Well at least, that's my view... and I think our Church doesn't holds James view on this text either -- well at least I've never heard of it before. Actually I had never paid any reflection on this "beheaded" words in that verse before. So I'm grateful James brought it up. I had found myself agreeing with James many times, as I have seen him say some pretty profound things; but I'm not agreeing with this one.

But like all things...everyone needs to chew on this, look what other scriptures says, and go to the Holy Spirit with this and let Him tell you His interpretation.

///

Elle, you say "To me it just doesn't add up with many other scriptures. If that would be so then that would means many like David, Joseph, Jacob, Moses, Paul, John, etc... won't make it just because they didn't die with a physical literal head chopping". You say so because you assume that the resurrection at the beginning of the millennium is the only chance anybody has for eternal life. That is incorrect.

There is a GENERAL resurrection at the end of the millennium. The Holy Scriptures say, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. ... And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:13-15)

It was to this GENERAL RESURRECTION AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM that Jesus referred when He said, "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)

Not everyone is saved. See John 3:16.

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I never said nor implied that the 1st resurrection "is the only chance anybody has for eternal life". You clearly show that you haven't read the discussion nor understood what I've said. Sorry to say but, if anyone is assuming here, it is clearly YOU.



I agree.



I agree that John 5:28-29 is talking about only the General resurrection which is the 2nd resurrection. Our Church take this text to say that it's talking about the 1st and 2nd resurrection by which I disagree.

So me and you we agree until now.


Ok now you need to elaborate.

So tell me how do you view what will happen after the 2nd resurrection?

And then, do you believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Paul, John, etc... that were NOT literally beheaded before their death, won't make it at the 1st resurrection?

Do you believe that Rev 20:5 says that those that resurrect at the 1st are called to reign with Christ during the Millennium? Thus you don't think all those great leaders of the past won't be risen? and why not?

And if this is all false--

Which I see plainly in scripture that it is false--

What happens to all those who accept it as truth, and think they will have another chance in some future life in which everyone regardless of how they related to God in this life will be saved?

This teaching that everyone will be saved eventually no matter how they relate to God in this life is simply re-iterating Satan's first lie --

Don't worry about rejecting God's Word now -- you won't really die (at least not a death of annihilation), you'll still enjoy everlasting life.

Like Jeremiah, (In chapter 28) when confronted by the false assurance of Hananiah who was claiming to be speaking God's Word, I can only say:

Paraphased from Jeremiah 28

Amen: the LORD do so: the LORD perform thy words which thou hast prophesied, to bring again the people of the LORD'S house, and all that is carried away captive. Nevertheless hear thou now this word that I speak in thine ears, and in the ears of all the people; the true Biblical prophets have prophesied against those who cling to evil.
The LORD has not sent those who prophesy peace; who make the people to trust in a lie.


Why give people the false assurance that they will have a second life in which to chose God?


If what you say is true -- then there is nothing to worry about, no matter what a person believes now, they will still have eternal life.

BUT if it is a lie --
And I know Satan is working very hard to twist scripture into lies that will cause people to be lost for eternity --
How many people will loose eternal life, with that false assurance?

C. The Judgment of the Dead AGE

8. The 2nd Resurrection :

The first resurrection is described as a selective resurrection of those who will rule with Christ during the Millennium in Rev 20:4 (see event #B4). Only one trumpet was blown in 1 Thes 4:16 and 1Cor 15:52 by which in Num 10:4 says it summons only the Leaders. And again consistently, Jesus also associated the sound of “a trumpet” to “gather together his elect ” in Mat 24:31.

All the texts associated with the 2nd resurrection have no mentions of trumpet or trumpets; however it describes the group in some way as “all” or “the rest” :

-Rev 20:5 : “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ”

-John 5:28 : “ ALL who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds…, those who commited the evil deeds…”. John 5 says it is ALL who are in the tombs hear His voice. Contrasting this verse with the 1st resurr. in 1 Thes 4:16 worded as “the dead in Christ”; that does not mean all is in this resurrection but only those in Christ

-Rev 20:12 : ““the dead, the great and the small”. This implies ALL.

-Acts 24:15 : “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. ” Paul says there’s A(one or a certain) resurrection for both “the just and unjust”. This is a similar text as John 5.


Law: The two trumpets Moses commanded to build. One trumpet sound
Scriptures : 1st: 1Thes 4:16; Rev 20:4,6; Mat 24:31; 1 Cor 15:52; 2nd: John 5:28,28; Acts 24:15; Rev 20:5;
Literal : All who remains in the graves (those that does good deeds and those that does evil deeds) resurrect.


9. The War

Before the Millennium “the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan, and bound him [in the bottomless pit] for a thousand years… that he doesn’t deceive the nations no more “(Rev 20:2,3). I’m not going to express my view on this. This is a big discussion on its own. I have done this study in the past many times and there's too much mis-representation and mis-understanding of many texts on this subject to address here. But for the sake of the discussion at hand; let us only say that the Lord neutralized the deceiver during the Millennium. He is not cast in the lake of fire like the Lord did for “the beast” and “the false Prophet” before the Millennium in Rev 19.

But do notice that the deceiver is unbound at the same time of the 2nd resurrection event. These people resurrected were not part of the Day of Atonement “showdown” to the believers before the 2nd coming, or with the ex-unbelievers who lived during the Millennium. Thus the 2nd-resurr-people current mind understanding is what they knew before they died. Thus their minds are still in adversary with the Lord for they still do not know Him or His laws.

AV Re 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. ”

It is natural for the unconvinced mind to kick off with their survival instinct in the goal the usurp the authority given to the Saints. The Bible doesn't give us how long this war lasted. It could be brief or long. I don’t know. But it got resolved with this “fire came down from God out of heaven”.

Fire is the Law. The Holy Spirit is also symbolically represented by fire. It is via the Holy Spirit voice that speak to us the Lord’s Law. Like when they heard the Law from Mount Sinai. So this could be that the Lord made Himself quite audible; maybe with a combination of some physical fire like He did at Mount Sinai. But I don’t believe that fire “devoured them” in a literal sense, for if it did; no one would be around to be judged as said in Rev 20:11-15.

Jer 5:14 confirm this “devouring” & “fire” can be a figurative language as it says “I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them”.

Law: Deut 33:2 That the Lord’s law is fire. The Lord’s voice is also fire. Ex 20; Deut 5:4 “the Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire”.
Scriptures : Rev 20 :7-9; Jer 5 :14;
Literal : Most likely some very audible voice with maybe a physical fire manifestation like Mt.Sinai.


10. The Lake of Fire: Adversary and False Prophet Burn

Rev 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ”

I’m not going to express my view on this. But for this discussion, I can say that the deceiver is no longer around at this point of time. Nor have “the beast” and “the false prophet” been around since the beginning of the Millennium.

Something I would like to note, is that we have seen 3 similar patterns having a “war” with a resolution that made an end to the war resulting with the end or casting in the lake of fire some dark leader with their false prophets. Let me list them below for comparison.
.....The War…………………………………….……Deceived People ………………..…The Fire………………………..Leader…...….False Prophet
**1. The Elijah’s DoAtonemt showdown…………Believers…………...Fire over altar(=Overcomers)……..Jezebel.....….F.Prop.of Baal
2. After the 2nd coming……………………………Unbelievers……...………tongue of Jesus ……………………….Beast……………..False Prophet
3. After the 2nd resurrection……………Believers & Unbelievers………………..Fire from God……...…….Satan……..….no F.Proph. left

**Just a reminder that the Elijah’s Day of Atonement showdown happens about a week before Jesus 2nd coming(midst of the Feast of Tabernacle).

Notice the comparison above, that the resolution for two incidence were fire. In the #1 case, the fire came down on the altar that represented the overcomers. The fire came down to bring conviction to the people and to unite “the children” hearts to their [spiritual] fathers (=their leaders).

In the #2 case, it was not fire, but the tongue of Jesus. To me Jesus word is also fire for Jer 23:29 says “Is not my word like as a fire? ”

Law: Deut 33:2 That the Lord’s law is fire. The Lord’s voice is also fire. Ex 20; Deut 5:4 “the Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire”.
Scriptures : Jer 23:29; Rev 20:10.


11. The Great White Throne Judgment
AV Re 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Mis-conception #1: Some Are found in the Book of Life
Verse 15 can imply that there were some that were found in the book of life. The ones whose names are not found in the book of life(most likely unbelievers) are the ones that are cast in “the lake of fire”. Verse 15 does not say that ALL were not found in the Book of life. That’s an assumption we SDAs make in our interpretation. Some names are found in the book of life and are those that did the “good deeds” that will receive the resurrection of life after their works are tested and receives their "lashings"(whatever that means spiritually).

Mis-conception #2: Not everyone gets the same judgment

Another assumption we make, is we say that everyone gets the same judgment -- annihilation. That’s never was the case in the past, nor this is implied or said in the Lord judgment laws. The law says “an eye for an eye” Ex 21:24, 25 meaning, if you loose an eye, the law’s restitution will be the value of an eye -- not more, not less. The law’s sentence will match the level of the offence, and the level of their pre-knowledge of the law. Verse 12 is clear people are judged according to their works.


The Judgment of the “Good-Deeds people” of the 2nd Resurrection

In Rev 20 there’s no mention of what happens to those “good-deeds” people that are found in the book of life. All we know is their works will be judged(Rev 20:12-13). Since, Rev 20 does not expand on any of the details; we need to resort to Jesus multiple parable to get that information.


Timing

In terms of timing of events, I think the “good-deeded” people will be judged first. We find that pattern in scriptures that our Church believe in such principle.


Public vs. Private Court Case

I don’t think all judgment will be public. From what I know of the Lord, I don’t think He will make a public show of our dirty rags. I think whatever sin that involved only your own person will be kept personal, but those sins that was an offence towards another individual(s) or of the public realm of the nature like being given a leadership role and how unlawfully this authority was used -- I think these will be made public (or maybe only call those that the sin effected directly) for the sake of justice and the work of reconciliation towards the victims it effected.

But overall the trials will be quite extraordinary where all injustice will be made known, and dealt with fairly, and justice will be served righteously in the eyes of all men to mend hearts.


Good-Deeds-Group Works tested via their Foundation
As believers, our works should be laid on no other foundation than Jesus-Christ(1C 3:11-15). Paul says “that every man’s work shall be made manifest”. The only time and place I can think of for this to happen is at the Great White Throne Judgment. Thus the works of the “good deeded” groups are tested by “FIRE” against the foundation Jesus has laid.

In verse 15 Paul conclude “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” Even if all their works are burned because it didn’t come from the Lord’s foundation but came from “stubbles” or “hay”(the flesh), he himself shall be saved because of that fire. The fact the person is not annihilated by that fire but in the contrary is saved by it; shows that it is not a literal fire but spiritual that represents the Holy Spirit involved in this testing and purifying this believer. He may have some good works proven by this fire; but even if he ends up with none whatsoever that stood the test; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”


Good-Deeds Group gets some flogging

I think after their works are tested, they will undergo some flogging. Jesus said of them that they knew his lord’s will” but “didn’t prepare himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes” Lk 12:47 Here theirs two issue pointed out,

1) “didn’t prepare himself” : The only way to prepare yourself is to go thru His discipline and graduate from His “spiritual growth school”. Theirs 3 levels. The first level is quite easy which is expressed in the Passover (circumcision of the heart that Jesus does, & baptism, and eating some baby food(milk)). The second level is Pentecost, is when you are old enough to learn to hear & obey the law thru the Holy Spirit’s training. That’s quite extensive training described in Rom 13. The third level is Tabernacle, is the time you learn to put in practice your gifts and callings by walking in His rest.

2) “neither did according to His will” . Most Christians have not gone thru the Pentecost spiritual level of growth. If they never learn to hear the Lord’s voice; then how can you come about to obey Him? Right! There’s many that has put themselves in some ministry today; but their calling never came from Jesus. This is what I think Jesus was telling to those that prophesied, cast out devils, and have “done many other wonderful works” “in the name of Jesus”. Jesus simply said to them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness” Mat 7:22-24 It’s impossible for anyone to do His will if you didn’t hear Him. And many don’t know how to hear Him and differentiate His voice from our own.

So their judgment is a certain number of flogging. I think this is symbolic of some "fire" judgment than the lake of fire. Jesus didn’t say they will physically die from it. And in Deut 25:3 the number of flogging is limited to 40. “Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. ”

Thus 40 “flogging” (??? Spiritually) is the most that can be sentenced. Interesting to note, that in Luk 12:49 Jesus seems to link these “flogging” aka "stripes" with "the fire".

AV Lk 12:48 "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?"


The “good” receives their reward and Life after being tested and receiving their Lashings

Nobody knows how long this testing last and the application of this text and the lashings constitute as this is not reveal in scripture and is reserve to be known during that age. But whatever time it will take to have this done, these two events will bring these believers into full maturity(=Tabernacle) and they will receive their reward(some level of responsibility in the Kingdom see Mat 25:21-23) then and will receive the immortal and incorrupt body(=life).


Some believers receives their reward and are tormented with the unbelievers

Abusive towards a Brother

Now some of these servants-beleivers raised at the 2nd resurr. who were found mistreating others; the Bible is specific that their fate is with the unbelievers. In Mat 24:49 & Luk 12:46 we read the evil servant that "smite his fellowservants" the Lord shall "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers". And also see Mat 5:22 "whosoever say, Thou fool shall be in danger of hell fire"

Unforgiven towards a Brother

Another reason is given in Mat 18 where Jesus speaks of a man that was forgiven a large debt; but after didn't forgive the small debt of his fellowservant. The text doesn’t use the words that he beated him. But he could of for the text says “he layed his hands on him and took him by the throat”(v.28) Regardless if he did or not, his judgment was with the unbelievers also by saying the Lord "delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto to him. "(v.34)

Do notice that in Mat 18 the evil servants was not physically destroyed but his sentence was to pay his entire debt. This is what is referred in the law of Jubilee. We will get to that in more detail in the next post in Section D.


The Redemption Law & other brief notes found in the Jubilee

One thing important to note for now is -- Redemption is only defined within the context of the law of Jubilee. We find many other laws in the Jubilee including paying their debt by being sold for their servitudes. Also it talks about not mistreating the servants-slaves that have good vacation rights including every 7th year as a release and a complete sabbatical rest. If the slaves are mistreated the law requires that he be freed.

Basically the law of Jubilee is the frameworks and foundation where all other laws given to Moses works into.


The ”Evil-Deeded" People of the 2nd Resurrection get Judged Next

After the “good-deeded” people cases are all over, I think next will be all the cases of “those that did evil deeds”. By then, these people will have been in many trials were injustice was done towards them by the “good deeded people”. Every people on earth have plenty of injustice done towards them including these “evil-deeded people”. I think the same type of trials will be conducted for them but their judgment will not be some number of “flogging” or "small fire", but “the lake of fire”. I will cover this in details in the last post in Section D.

Law : "eye for an eye" Ex 21:24,25; Maximum number of 40 stripes Deut 25:30; be sold Ex 21:3; pay debt, law of redemption and law of Jubilee Lev 25.
Scriptures : White Throne Jugment Rev 20:11-15; works of believers tested with fire against foundatation 1Cor 3:11-15; believers not prepare or didn't do according to His will Luk 12:47-49; I never knew you Mt 7:22-24; reward is a level of responsibility in the Kingdom Mat 25:21-23; evil servants gets reward with unbelievers Mat 24:49, Luk 12:46, Mt 5:22; unforgiven servant have to pay his entire debt Mat 18:28-34; abusive servant receice reward with unbelievers Luk 12.
Literal : The good deeded believers gets there trial first and receive some sort of judgment before receiving their reward of eternal life. The evil deeded believers and unbelievers gets cast in the "lake of fire" (will cover that in section D)


12. The Submission & Swearing Allegiance

I think that by the time everyone passes in front of the Great White Throne; that’s when the Lord’s oath in Isaiah 45 will be fulfilled. During the trials this is what everyone will experience and witness :

-everyone got judged for their works with fairness,
-with a sentence fitting for their crimes -- an “eye for an eye” meaning not less nor more.
-with mercy by giving them a way for them to restitute for their crime according to the law in the sin offering and elsewhere,
-seeing the wisdom in the Lord’s judgment to make a way to reconcile them to their victim,
-seeing that the Lord does address all evil deeds,
-seeing that He judges His servants first, and the remaining groups later
-seeing their evil deeds still served a purpose in the overall plan (“all things work together for good” Rom 8:28),
-understanding via witnessing in some court cases that the law forbids any brother to look at them as a criminal,
- understanding via witnessing in some court cases that the law says everyone is to treat ex-criminals with love and respects
- understanding via witnessing in some court cases that the law forbids mistreating a bond-servant or anyone
-knowing that by the end of the Great Jubilee they too and all others will inherit the glorious body that the Overcomers and the “good-deeded” people are about to receive.
-by the end of all the court cases that's when all the resurrected ones will come to know the truth. Coming to know all the truth is salvatic in this text -- AV 1Ti 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
-I can see that by the end of the trials everyone will think in their minds “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! ” (Rom 11:33). I think it will be overwhelming.

I do believe that the Lord surely knows how to bring anyone to repentance. He brought me to repentance, and He brought a very barbaric King Nebuchadnezzar to repentance with far less revelation of the truth than that. With all the revelation put on the table and whatever showdown they received before the Great white Throne – I have no doubt that the Lord’s oath below will be fulfill :

Every Knee will bow and Every Tongue Swear Allegiance

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear [allegiance] . 24 Surely, shall [one] say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: [even] to him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. ” AV Isa 45:23,24

I do not believe in our Church and most denomination position on Isaiah 45:23 that Paul quoted 3 times, that it doesn’t say it’s a repentance. I think this type of opinion is quite bias based on pre-conceived interpretation.



Above is an example of someone's view & interpretation. When we look at the text for what it says, it is not what this person or many others try to make it say.

Meaning of the Two gestures

1.bowing the knee -- is a submission. All throughout the Bible bowing means a submission and subservient position.

2. the tongue that swear -- is saying an oath. What type of oath or swearing are they saying?

These are the possibilities that comes to mind. If there's others, please let me know :

a) to swear whatever you are saying is the truth : it could be in a court of law, or to an individual, or to a group of people. This is not the case in this context.

b) to swear that you keep your end of the bargan-contract, your words, or keep this charge. This is also not the case in this context.

c) to swear an allegiance to an authority, to your leader, to a god, to a country, etc... This does fit this context because #1 they have bowed their knee beforehand which means they had submitted to someone.

Then we have verse 24 that further support the notion it was a repentance and submission:

a) "Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: " : Surely -- mean truly -- I have righteousness in the Lord -- this say their righteousness & strength rest in the Lord now. This is definitely a statement a new convert says and not someone that is angry as in the example quote from this person suggested. No longer their righteousness & strength rest on themselves as it were before.

b) "even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed" : This statement that comes AFTER part a) qualifies who where these men by saying -- men shall come to the LORD and all that are "angry" against him shall be ashamed -- after knowing the truth, someone can be ashamed that they were angry at the Lord before. Or this can be a simple statement that the Lord successfully brought his enemies into shame.

Also verse 22 & 25 brings more of the context by both mentioning it was about these people receiving salvation.

-verse 22 the Lord is saying to everyone to look unto Him and be saved -- "look...be ye saved" before the next verse were the Lord swears and his word will not return empty that "every knee bow and every tongue swear". This oath the Lord said was in response to verse 22 to qualify it in what He will do.

-Then in verse 25 the same context is brought in a conclusive matter -- "
ALL Israel shall be JUSTIFIEDand…. shall GLORY ". These words are words that confirms what will happen after everyone submits and swear allegiance.
This context, and the text itself if by far words of forced swearing when still angry unrepentant mob saying "ok ok you win, now you can annihilate us”.


Timing for the Lord to Fulfill His Oaths and other promises

It took some time to fulfill, but the Lord is in no hurry and have all the time on His side.

AV Hab 1:12 . “[Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction. ”


The Second Passover

Many say that you need to repent in your lifetime. That’s not true. No where in the Bible mentions that. Actually in the law of the Second Passover in Num 9:6-10 it says the opposite.

The Lord have provided by LAW a means for the people that have missed the first Passover a chance to observe it on the second month.

These are the reason why the people had missed the first Passover in this law :

a) they "were defiled by the dead body of a man" : which those that resurrect after the Millennium are still MORTAL thus defiled by their own dead(mortal) body.

b) "be in a journey afar off" : that represent all of those that were far off from the Lord in their lifetime.

This law basically includes everyone at the 2nd resurrection. No one is excluded. Thus this law allows everyone that have mist the FIRST Passover for the reason listed above that they can keep the SECOND Passover and be justified by the blood of Jesus also.

Law: The Second Passover Num 9:6-10
Scriptures : Every knee bow & tongue swear Isaiah 45:22-25, Rom 14:11, Ph 2:10,11; The Lord's glory will fill the whole earth Num 14:21, Ps 72:19, Isa 6:3, Hab 2:14; Everyone will know the truth and be saved 1Tm 2:4.
Literal : Every knee shall bow and every tongue will swear allegiance to the Lord = repentance and submission to the judgment sentence giving at their trial when their works were judged.


13. The Lake of Fire : Death and Hades Cast in

The death (& hades) here is the death(1st & physical) that was imputed to all mankind because of Adam’s sin.

The Hades(the unseen – Sheol in Hebrew) here is the place the soul goes(Ps 16:10, 30:3, 49:15, 86:13, 89:48; Pr 23:14; Acts 2:27,31; ) whereas the body returns to dust. The Greeks had described it as “subterraneous” place but it is really an “unseen” place for the soul(=mind) by which is also “unseen”.

The 1st death and Hades goes hand in hand. I think in the past I’ve said they were both destroyed(v.14) in the lake of fire before the people are cast in(v.15). Right now I’m wondering if that’s an incomplete interpretation. The reason I’m bringing my own interpretation in question is because of 1Cor 15:26 that says “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death ”. The possible interpretation of that by its context that it happens just before “Christ put all things under his feet ”(v.27) which is a referenced at the end of the Great Jubilee when Christ succeeds to bring all things in submission before He put Himself in submission to the Father “that God may be all in all ” (v.28).

Thus "death and Hades cast in the lake of fire" could be be a slow or a “legal” type of destruction until death and hades is totally destroyed at the end of the Great Jubilee. 1Cor 15:55-56 quotes from Hos 13:14 that says “I will deliver this people from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction? I will have no compassion ”. The people got redeemed before they were cast in the lake of fire -- so where is the sting of death and destruction of hades?

Legal vs. Complete Fulfillment

This a term that we do not use much; but we do have this teaching in our perception of the power of the Word of God when spoken. Basically when a judgment is pronounced, it is legally recognized at that moment as fulfilled, for any word of God pronounced is fulfilled -- it is just a matter of time before it is completely manifested as fulfilled on earth. When Jesus died at the cross, He legally justified the whole world. These are examples of official "legal time" that start from the beginning of the spectrum of the spoken word or Legal act of Jesus. However these are things not yet fulfilled and have not come to full reality on earth(or in our body)yet. When it is fulfilled, then we are at the other end of the spectrum of the "fulfillment time". In another word, the "legal or when sentenced pronounced" is when "God, who ...calleth those things which be not as though they were." Rom 4:17

So perhaps Rev 20:14 statement is the "legal time" or "the beginning time when the spoken word" is recorded in the heavenly court. And the end of Great Jubilee is the fulfillment of what was pronounced in Rev 20:14 and is when death and hades becomes fully destroyed when all is restored back to their glorified body at their full release and forgiveness of their debt at the Great Jubilee time. That's what I could see to reconcile these texts.

Law:
Scriptures : death and hades cast in lake of fire before the people Rev 20:14,15; death is last enemy destroyed 1Cor 15:26-28, death and hades have no sting and no destruction ICor 15:55-56, Hos 13:14; God call things that are not as if they were Rom 4:17.
Literal: Death(1st physical) and Hades legally destroyed before people are cast in the lake of fire, but is completely destroyed at the end of the Great Jubilee when they received their glorious immortal garment.

Dedication, it appears that Elle's demi-catholic, pseudo-biblical, doctrines are not to be held accountable for the souls that they may lead to perdition.

It is difficult to believe that she came up with this dark delusion on her own. Even without the elements borrowed from catholicism, there is a huge amount of sophistry and intricately twisted scripture. I wonder how many leaders and websites are out there repeating this particular iteration of the original satanic lie: "thou shalt not surely die!"?

I also believe that everybody who ever lived, etc. will ultimately be saved is a lie of the devil.

Deception is deep. The master lie could be the opposite of your statement.

If you could only show from the Bible that the Lord's end plan is that some are saved(and not all) -- that would give your statement some credence. The fact is, the Bible says the opposite.

The common mistake is most Christian do not understand the plan of salvation that is reveal in the judgments laws, Jubilee laws and in the 3 Feasts. The law teaches us that there are 3 harvests. Thus most Christian take NT texts (or some OT) that points to the first harvest and deduced that's the end for everyone that didn't make that harvest while ignoring all other texts that reveals the Lord's plan that goes beyond the 1st harvest(=1st resurrection).

Up to now, no one was able to bring forth any Biblical support that only some are saved. Those that were brought forth were mis-applied or mis-understood texts.

• John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life."
   
• Mat. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels'."
   
• 2 Pet. 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and THE ELEMENTS WILL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

What does Jesus mean by saying some will perish in everlasting fire together with the devil and the devil's angels? Is it the same day of which Peter speaks when he said, "the elements will melt with fervent heat"?

///

Good verses and a good question that I would like Elle to answer.

There is also the following:

Matthew 25:41 ASV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

Here's another one:

Rev 20:12 KJV And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Elle,

John 3:16 speaks of "whosoever believeth" (some, not all) should not "perish" but have "everlasting life." What the text does NOT say is the clincher to your question. The text does NOT say that Jesus' gift of eternal life will be given to ALL.

As others have pointed out, the Bible speaks of some who perish. Many places in the Bible address those who will be separated out from the righteous and be lost, burned, or perish. "Perish" does not mean "live." They are polar opposites.

For example, from Psalm 1:6 "For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

This theme is found consistently throughout the Bible. Jesus said in Matthew:

18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

There is no reason for Jesus to pronounce a woe (curse) upon those who offend others (e.g. teach them to sin) if in the end they will be saved like the ones they offended. And why would Jesus cast the saved into "hell fire"? Saved people are not burned, nor cast in the fire to be burned.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So do you believe ALL are not raised in the first resurrection?

Though your post appears to be responding to Daryl, I will be happy to say that from my understanding of the Bible only a special group of wicked people will be raised before Christ comes, and definitely not all of them. In fact, I understand that there are to be THREE general resurrections. (I say "general" to distinguish them from special resurrections where an individual is raised to life, such as occasionally occurs in our world even today.)

1. Christ's murderers -- These will be raised just before He comes so that they have opportunity to witness His coming. (See Matthew 26:64 and Revelation 1:7.)

2. The righteous dead -- These will be raised at the trump of God when Christ has come, and they will rise to meet Him in the air, following which the righteous living will also join them in the air. (See 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.)

3. All the wicked who are to be raised to face judgment (a special few will never be raised again per God's mercy) -- These will be raised at Christ's third coming and will see the New Jerusalem with the saints of God in it. These will all acknowledge that God has been fair in punishing them, but will, nonetheless, seek to make war with Him in order to overcome the City and possess it for themselves before God will bring fire upon them and destroy them all, root and branch. (See John 5:28-29, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:9-10, Revelation chapter 20, Romans 14:11-12, Philippians 2:10-12, Revelation 19:20, Malachi 4:1-3, and Matthew 18:8-9.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Why do you believe a lie?

///

James, if it were a lie I wouldn't believe it. I only believe what I understand to be the truth. I expect you are the same. Few people knowingly believe lies.

Here is the reason for my belief:


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Perhaps it failed to register (on you) that she failed to provide any biblical evidence for an idea drawn out of thin air.


On the other hand, Jesus speaks of those who will be better off not having been born:

• JUDAS: "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born." (Mark 14:21)
   
• PEDOPHILES: "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." (Luke 17:2)

And, Jesus (and Paul) also speaks about the resurrection of EVERYONE.

• See John 5:28, "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL WHO ARE IN THE GRAVES will hear His voice ..."
   
• See Rom. 14:10-12, "For WE SHALL ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.' So then EACH OF US shall give account of himself to God."

According to Jesus Christ (and Paul) then, ALL who are in the graves, we shall ALL (EACH ONE of us) be raised, bow and confess. Therefore, the thin idea that only some will be raised (EGW, 1SG 193.1) is false, misleading and beguiling.

///

You have a choice what you will believe, James. However, there is plenty of Biblical evidence to support what I believe. I believe in a God of mercy, don't you? I don't believe God is a cruel tyrant, do you?

Essentially, in not choosing to accept what Mrs. White declares as being consistent with the nature of God, you turn your eyes away from the teachings of the Bible about God's character. You have the freedom to do this, granted by God, but do you think God feels happy when people believe lies?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

///

EGW's and your lack of Biblical evidence is glaring still.

///

Then prove to me, from the Bible, that God is not merciful. I assumed you would not require proof that God was merciful, but it appears I misunderstood your position. Please show me, from the Bible, where I am wrong. Maybe I read texts like Exodus 34:6-7 differently than you do?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Psalms 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Ellen G. White has been demonstrated to be a true prophetess of God. So, there is every reason to listen to her writings.

When Isaiah talked about the birth of the Messiah in chapters 7 and 9, much of that would have been brand new to most Israelites. But, it was true all the same.

We as Seventh-day Adventists share in the "testimony of Jesus" and are blessed by it.

///

EGW's and your lack of Biblical evidence is glaring still. And you know it.

///

I would never affirm such a statement as yours, James. This is very common with those who don't understand and apply "thought inspiration" to our reasoning. The Bible is thought inspired, not verbally inspired.

You will find the same with Sister White's writings as well.

Sorry, I was a few pages back and thought Elle's was the last post.

If you are referring to
He lets him be as though he had not been;

Is there anywhere else where she says a similar thing about the wicked in general?

??? Didn't I already replied to you about this? Did you mean to comment on something you disagree? Sorry, but I still don't have the gift of reading minds.

No, Elle, I didn't find where you replied. But the above was to green as he thought I was replying to him.

Perhaps it failed to register (on you) that Ellen White failed to provide any biblical evidence for an idea drawn out of thin air (EGW, 1SG 193.1).

On the other hand, Jesus speaks of those who will be better off not having been born:

• JUDAS: "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born." (Mark 14:21)
   
• PEDOPHILES: "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." (Luke 17:2)

And, Jesus (and Paul) also speaks about the resurrection of EVERYONE.

• See John 5:28, "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL WHO ARE IN THE GRAVES will hear His voice ..."
   
• See Rom. 14:10-12, "For WE SHALL ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written: 'As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.' So then EACH OF US shall give account of himself to God."

According to Jesus Christ (and Paul) then, ALL who are in the graves, we shall ALL (EACH ONE of us) be raised, bow and confess. Therefore, the "STRANGE" idea that only some will be raised (EGW, 1SG 193.1) is false, misleading and beguiling.

///

James, is there a difference between the resurrection of EVERYONE and the salvation of everyone?

(Unless you are only addressing Green's "as though he had not been;" in which case, I'll wait until he answers my question. He's been called out on that before, but is repeating it)

James, SDAs believe everyone will be raised. I (& I think Adventist) don't agree with Green's 3 resurrections theory, but putting Green's pre-1st resurrection aside, my understanding is SDAs believe that the 1st resurrection is for only the ones that did "good" and the 2nd resurrection is for the "evil" which constitute everyone else that is raised and end up annihilated.

I now differ from SDAs position. As you probably read my post, I believe that the 1st resurrection is only for the Leaders (those called to reign with Christ Rev 20:6). The 2nd, I believe like you, that all (the ones that did the good deeds and the ones that did the evil deeds) BOTH will be resurrected.

We (Green, SDAs, you, and I) all have some variation in what we believe, but overall I see that we all are saying the same thing that everyone will be raised.

Actually, I believe in FOUR general resurrections--but three of those are future.

The very first one was the one that occurred at Jesus' resurrection. Others were resurrected in a "special group" of first-fruits that, in my understanding, have become the elders in heaven spoken of in Revelation. They join Moses, Elijah, and Enoch as witnesses in Heaven for all of humanity that what God has done is fair and good.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Could it be possible that you do not understand all these verses? That there's more to it than what you read superficially?

Rev 20:5,6 repeats twice that the FIRST(not the 3rd or 2nd) resurrection takes place before the Millennium at Jesus 2nd coming. And then the bible tells us there's another resurrection after the Millennium. To me these verses tells me there's 2 resurrections.

Elle,

Is one who rejects truth trying to instruct someone else to do likewise? I have it on good authority that people were raised with Jesus and taken to heaven as first-fruits of His work of redemption here on earth. Furthermore, consider when Revelation was written. If the author were looking forward in time, there would have been no need to consider this first special resurrection.

In fact, there are two "mass" resurrections and two special resurrections. Each of the special resurrections may include only a small, select group--one for saints, one for the lost. Again, with the mass resurrections, one is for saints, one is for the lost. The Bible is clear on the two mass resurrections as to who each is for and at what point they occur in relation to earth's history.

When the Bible uses terms like "first," it does so just as we might in modern English. Sometimes it really means the "original," such as the first Adam, and sometimes it simply refers to the order in which something occurs, such as the first day, month, or year, or the "first covenant" which actually came after the so-called "new covenant" in terms of its origination but comes before it in terms of its application to the followers of God. Nor do such terms intend to be an exhaustive list in and of themselves. One could easily study the scriptures and find many more covenants between mankind and God than simply two, and yet we do not see the Bible numbering them all. Why? It numbers the two that are most important. There is no need to speak of 1) Adamic Covenant, 2) Noachian Covenant, 3) Abrahamic Covenant, 4) Jacobic Covenant, 5) Israelite Covenant, etc. when two simple covenants can better help us to understand the most important truths for us to know. I would humbly suggest that these resurrections, in like manner, typify the two contrasted themes that have special importance for us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

ouch!


Who? Peor?


The Bible doesn't say that those raised were a)taken to heaven b)were firstfruits. Where did you get that? Not from scriptures. This is the text in question :

AV Mt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is the only text in the gospels that talks about it. No other gospels or Paul or other writers refers to this. Thus we do not have a 2nd witness for this text.

The text doesn't say that those who were raised :

a)who exactly were these people -- "saints" is vague

b)that they were raised to immortality. Most likely they were raised back to life like all the others previous to them like Lazarus and the little sick girl and then died like any other.

c)that they were the firstfruits.

d)that they went to heaven. The text says they went to the city of Jerusalem where many people saw them.

So again GreenC you are filling up the gaps(Peor) with things that the Bible doesn't say. In another word -- you are adding to scriptures.


Are you still talking about Mat 27?


According to scriptures, to me it says that the 1st resurrection is restrictive by only calling the Leaders. Rev 20:5.


The 2nd resurrection is a "mass" resurr. of all the rest that didn't make the 1st resurr. restricted to the leaders (Rev 20:6). This "mass" resurr. is all of those who did the "good deeds" and of those that did the "evil deeds". John 5:28,28



Nice theory but too bad it doesn't speak according to the Law. Moses made two trumpets.(see text comments under the Law heading in B4 about the 1st resurr.) The sounding of one trumpet summoned only the Leaders, whereas the sounding of two trumpets summoned the whole congregation.

These describes the two resurrections:
the 1st is a restrictive for the leaders only,
the 2nd is a "mass" for the remaining congregation (the goods & the evil)

Your theory doesn't talk according to the law.


No to me the Bible is clear (see texts above of the two resurrections) there's only one restrictive resurr. for the Leaders and one "mass" resurr. in relation to the law and scriptures.

Another witness...


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

That is not a witness, it's a commentary that need to be tested.

1. I hear that the Desired of Ages is one of the book that was made clear that Ellen White didn't write. It was her secretary that wrote it. However, it seems that Ellen did approve it and put her name on it. I say "it seems" as history is known to be distorted by the Jesuit. Regardless, all things has to be tested with scriptures. Including what I say and I hope you don't mind that I will test all that you say as it is our Christian duty as Ellen & James & Deut 13 & other scriptures say so.

2. No where in scripture does it say that those that was raise were raised to immortality.

3. No where in scripture does it say that they were the firstfruits. Actually that goes against what Paul said. He said they were the firstfruits and no one of them got changed to immortality yet and they all died.

4. If this was the raising of the firstfruits and a group raised to immortality -- at least one of the other disciples and apostles would of commented on it. That would of been a huge event. No one comments on it because these people wasn't raised to immortality and weren't firstfruits.

5. Jesus was the wave sheaf -- the firstfruits of the Barley harvest. When a firstfruits was presented at the temple, it blessed the harvest and everyone went to harvest their entire field. The harvest was not a partial harvest as what you are suggesting. So right there, to me you are not speaking according to the law. Everything that needed to be harvested for the Barley was harvested at the same time. The law forbids anyone to harvest anything before the wave sheaves was presented at the temple.

Jesus was the HEAD of the first Harvest of Barley. The Barley Harvest represents the Leaders- the overcomers at the 1st resurrection. They constitute the BODY of the first harvest. And the Barley Harvest (those raised at 1st resurr. + those alive) will be unified together as a group just before Jesus 2nd coming when the HEAD will be attached to the BODY together representing the Barley Firstfruits Harvest.

Their's 3 harvests, the next one is the Wheat harvest that represents the Church people that still have some leaven in them. The Wheat harvest is Pentecost which the main sacrifice was two loaves of leaven bread. They will gain their immortality robe once they are tested by fire and receives their lashing (whatever this means in a literal fulfilment).

The third harvest is the Grapes that represents the unbelievers. They are those whose name are not in the book of life and are cast in the lake of fire which is the execution their judgment is some form of servitude until the Great Jubilee comes. Then they will be return to their lost inheritance which is the glorified immortal body.

Elle,

I know not whom you would believe. Only yourself, I fear. Nevertheless, here is another witness, but perhaps I already know you will reject it, just like the keepers of the vineyard did with the messengers their Lord sent.



And another witness...



And another one...



Another one...



Are they all Jesuits, Elle, who would understand things differently than you?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

We do not know who in our early Church history were with the Jesuits or with the Masons. So in the post above you are making an assumption that all those men were not. Let us suppose that all were not, we still have to test everything they say.

Here's a quote from another discussion with a link.

This picture does suggest that our church was heavily infiltrated within our leaders as early as 1888 that started sometimes before. This dark history of our Church, it is hidden to us. Thus, this support why the Lord told us in Deut 13 to test all things.

As I have seen in the other discussion you are very strong in adding to scriptures and giving many assumptions while treating them as truth. I hope you don't mind that I will test everything you say and not take these men's quotes as witnesses.

To my understanding of what a true witnesses are, they only will repeat the Lord's word and speak as Moses Deut 18 (meaning they won't contradict the Law or the testimonies(manner of keeping the law -- Is 20:8).

Just because you found some people within the Church pioneers holding your position; doesn't mean what they spoke came from Jesus mouth and that they are true witnesses.

Is this still an Adventist forum?

I can't believe what is holding top place here --
Someone who is filling the forum with actual JESUIT DOCTRINES of a supposed earthly kingdom of a Christ with resurrected saints where (which will actually be "spirit beings" impersonating resurrected saints), are the leaders, in a "new world restructured order" and these resurrected saints (actually fallen angels claiming to be resurrected saints) will "teach" earth's inhabitants to "obey the law"...

This is precisely what the new age JESUITS are promoting.



And then we have the clincher -- the declaring that tAdventist doctrines are the doctrines of Jesuits!

Adventist doctrines are the very fortress AGAINST these Jesuit doctrines but of course this opposition to the "new world order" must be maligned as the enemy, for the biggest deception this world will experience to be successful in its hope to deceive even the strongholds against it.

May God help us -- the end is near, very soon satan and his masters (fallen angels) will appear as the "Christ" with his supposedly resurrected "leaders" and woe to the world ---
Too late they will realize the utter deception.

AMEN!!!

At last, someone has spoken the truth about these seemingly endless jesuitical philosophies polluting this supposed Seventh Day Adventist forum!

Forgive me if I stray from the topic of this thread; however, the persistent undermining of Seventh Day Adventist beliefs, the misrepresentation of inspired pioneers, the jaw-dropping attempts to discredit God's endtime Prophet Ellen White and dim the clear light of the Spirit Of Prophesy, these heinous actions must be confronted!

If this is truely a forum for "Seventh Day Adventists and the friends of Seventh Day Adventists", then there must come a point where we MUST make our stand with Christ and declare: " Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

The shear number and length of these detailed, insidious, attacks on Adventism make one wonder, is there some sort of deliberate orchestration here? It hardly seems credible that one individual could generate such a prodigious volume of creatively deceptive postings.

Last year, I confronted Elle on her false claim to membership in the Seventh Day Adventist Church (a mentally deficient blind man could see that she accepts the 28 Fundamental Beliefs about as readily as that Jesuit wolf the Pope does!). Of course all my talk of personal accountability and old fashioned honesty was dismissed because, she felt that her Adventist Church was where God wanted her to be.

That falsehood is continued in this forum. Elle's profile claims that she is a Seventh Day Adventist. Does anyone believe this to be true?

ProdigalOne, back to your ways. I understand it's difficult for a leopard to change its spots.

BTW This is a SDA forum discussion and I'be been SDA for 30 years now. I have addressed your accusation or displeasure about me being here before and I have made suggestion how to address it properly.

BTW. I didn't start this discussion and this discussion was started by Daryl after I have said something in another post. In another word he wanted to have this discussion and my participation.

Everything I say, it is a product of past scripture studies and based on scriptures. I've provided many scriptures with details so to give you or anyone an advantage to take anything that you see that I say viewed out of line of the Bible; to bring it forth. Then let's test it together. I could be wrong or you may be wrong. That's the point of studying and testing what we think we know. Right?

Up to now in this discussion, you brought something(the state of the dead) forth that I wasn't out of line of it and then at the end -- it was you that was misquoting scripture -- remember you said that the soul was going to dust when I quoted at least 5 Bible verses that said the soul goes to sheol. Then you said another thing that Sheol was the same as going to dust -- to the graves. Now these are big mistakes in our Adventist believe that I never seen before and I could of attack that if my purpose was to bring down the Adventist Church. I didn't because that's not my intention at all, plus it was way out of topic.

I'm here to study. If you believe that I'm not representing scripture properly, then show me where. Don't give cheap empty statement. I've given you a very condensed summary with scriptures and the law. Then use that to show where I'm out of line with the scriptures. OK? Qualify the accusation you are bringing. Talk is cheap. Walk the talk.

Here's a handy 4 sections Index with it's link. I haven't posted section D yet.

A. Pentecostal AGE :Pre-2nd Coming
Link : Post#179702
1. Captivity to Babylon :
2. Captives’ Repentance & Fall of Babylon :
3. Transfer of Authority :

B. Tabernacle AGE: The Rule of the Melchisedek Order
Link : Post#179772
4. The 1st Resurrection -- only The Rulers-Overcomers :
5. Jesus 2nd Coming & War :
6. The Lake of fire -- The Beast and the False prophet Cast Alive
7. The Sabbath Millennium :

C. The Judgment of the Dead AGE
Link : Post#179913
8. The 2nd Resurrection :
9. The War
10. The Lake of Fire: Adversary and False Prophet Burn
11. The Great White Throne Judgment
12. The Submission & Swearing Allegiance
13. The Lake of Fire : Death and Hades Cast in

D. The Judgment Execution AGE
Link : Coming Soon.
14.The Lake of Fire: Execution of Judgment sentence of the People
15. The Great Jubilee : Debt canceled, everyone returns to their possession[=Glorious Body]
16. All is Under Jesus feet, then the Son also…that God may be all in all
[/quote]

Oh I just notice dedication post. ProdigalSon post was saying amen to her words.


I never said that our doctrines are Jesuits Doctrines, but as I agreed with ProdigalSon statement:

So we should suspect that some portion of our doctrines has been infiltrated. Also, some of the doctrines received by the Pioneers was just the standard view in their time. The Lord didn't reveal everything to our Church in the mid 1800s and on. Didn't revelation stop after 1888? Because of the Church rejection of Righteousness by Faith? I agree with many here on the forum that there's more to be known. What I see some of our standard view needs to be deepened or even be corrected at some places.


Well, good if you see where I'm erring -- I would like to know. That's the purpose for bringing this on the table.

That means you can point them out. Up to now you haven't succeeded. Most of the time you add things to scriptures, or twist things around to support mis-understood or shallow interpretation. Remember Is 45:23? -- at the end it was you that were in error, not me. And there were some more...


Like I said to ProdigalSon -- talk is cheap. Walk the talk. Show me where are the errors or misrepresentation of scriptures.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Next paragraph:
Let all who claim to be reformers be such in the fullest sense of the word. The Lord is merciful. He does not chastise His people because He hates them, but because He hates the sins that they are committing. If they will turn from their wrong ways, and seek counsel from Him, He will be spared a repetition of their chastisement. He waits long for His erring people to repent, that He may remove the rod from them, and grant them His forgiveness and love, filling their hearts with His peace and joy. But those who in self-complacency strengthen themselves in their own way must be left to suffer the consequence of their wrong course. Cause will be followed by the sure result.
Ellen G. White. {PUR, August 14, 1902 par. 11}

Elle said:

"ProdigalOne, back to your ways. I understand it's difficult for a leopard to change its spots.

BTW This is a SDA forum discussion and I'be been SDA for 30 years now. I have addressed your accusation or displeasure about me being here before and I have made suggestion how to address it properly. "


A leopard does not change its spots, just as a lie does not change the truth.

According to what you have said on other threads, you may well have been a Seventh Day Adventist many years ago; however, as you and most of the members here know, this is no longer the case.

Over time have been seduced by the teachings of false prophets such as Stephen Jones, whom you quote repeatedly elsewhere.

On the books membership in a church does not make you a Seventh Day Adventist.
"The kingdom is within you". If your heart and mind do not embrace the special Endtime Truths entrusted to the Seventh Day Adventist Church then you are a member only according to "the letter of the law".

Isn't it time to admit that the doctrine/tares you stubbornly sow among us are those of other faiths, such as God's Kingdom Ministries? http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/

Elle said,

"I'm here to study. If you believe that I'm not representing scripture properly, then show me where. Don't give cheap empty statement. I've given you a very condensed summary with scriptures and the law. Then use that to show where I'm out of line with the scriptures. OK? Qualify the accusation you are bringing. Talk is cheap. Walk the talk."


Alas, Babylon is fallen...
You labor to convince us that Babylon is a system of financial empire and that the coming Kingdom of God will be based on mammon. How can you not see, the doctrine you preach is the very Wine of Babylon! Alas, I fear that you are fatally intoxicated by it.

Yes "talk is cheap", and striving to reason with you from Scripture appears to be futile. As in our discussion of the state of the dead and Sheol, your convoluted Jesuitical arguements have been met time after time with logical, intelligent, simple, biblical, Truth.

Many times, I have witnessed sensitive, wise, gentle souls such as dedication, Green Cochoa, Alchemy and numerous other knowledgable, godly, members of this forum patiently present the straight Word of God in answer to your confusing, Neo-Babylonian, rhetoric; only to have their honest, thoughtful, words dismissed by an incredibly misguided claim that the topic under discussion is "spiritual", or that your interpretation is correct because you have the amorphous confirmation of "two witnesses"???


"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2Timothy 4:3-4


Decades ago, in newborn ignorance, I joined myself to the Charismatic/Penticostal movement. Though the denominational labels, modes of worship, and crooked doctrines have evolved, the spirit that guides you was shown to me then: I cannot accept your private, emotion inspired, interpretations and unbiblical, worldly beliefs.


You say that if I believe that you are not representing scripture properly, then I should show you where?

Though you be shown the Truth, graven in stone by flame and the very finger of God, we will never agree on His holy nature, His perfect righteousness, or His divine plans for the Earth and Humanity.

The problem is that the Word of God was inspired by the Holy Spirit and you are being led by a much different spirit. You are an unwitting agent of the dark system you claim to despise...

Elle, I am truely sorry if my words seem harsh, or cruel,
that was never my intention.

The Conflict of the Ages is almost history,
I love you dear sister. Please, won't you come home?


"...thou hast left thy first love.
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place..." Revelation 2:4-5


You will be in my prayers,
that is all I have left to give.

Hi ProdigalOne,

From skimming quickly everything, I see you are NOT addressing the discussion at hand and you are still focusing on ME. Saying things AGAIN that is non related to the discussion.

I would appreciate if you the discussion. Tackle what I said relating in the discussion of scriptures that you think I misrepresent. That would be more effective and productive.

There is no point in discussing salvation with you, Elle.
Your universalist doctrines lead to the Pit! They belittle the sacrifice of Christ (everyone is automatically saved, there is no choice, no free will) and annul all motivation for a sanctified life (everyone will live eternally, "Thou shalt NOT surely die!", so why not just sin if it feels good?)

Your arguments have been met and eloquently refuted by more knowledgeable members than I. Yet you still cling to your Jesuit inspired prosperity theology. If a simple thus saith the Lord cannot change your faulty views, then nothing I or anyone else can say will.

Since the discussion has reached the point where you are "skimming quickly everything", then perhaps it is time to depart.

God has promised that He will NOT clear the guilty. As we study the plan of salvation through the Sanctuary Service, we can see is keeping that promise.

The words in brackets were missing in your original post, however, I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that not everybody will be saved, but that only some will be saved in comparison to the many who will be lost, which really is the intended purpose of this particular thread.

You're correct Daryl. I just noticed yesterday that I had missed clarifying that I was talking about God in that statement. I appreciate the reproof.

I want us to seriously consider what is written in the New Testament, which I believe wouldn't contradict anything written in the Old Testament in that, if there is anybody who understood what was written in the Old Testament, it was Christ Himself.

If the NT, therefore, says that people will perish in the Lake of Fire, then people will perish in the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(bold emphasis mine)

That is an important point. There are many professed Christians who believe the way of salvation was different in it's relation to the Law of God in the Old Testament than in the New Testament. This confusion has to do with which law?

God was just as gracious in the Old Testament as in the New. Its just that the ceremonial law wasn't practiced in the NT as in the OT. There was a change in the relation and practice with regard to the ceremonial law, but, not with the Moral Law or Ten Commandments.

I am not in any way implying that we are saved by keeping the Moral Law, but, it is important to our relationship with God.

Good statement Alchemy. I agree that He will not clear the guilty. Even those that are redeemed are not cleared. If you know what I mean; but I'm not surprise you don't for our understanding of the word "redeem" is very shallow and have not looked it up how it is defined in the law.

We and the Whole World have been redeemed since the foundation of the earth(Rev 13:8). The plan of salvation was already laid before creation. Thus LEGALLY (because the Lord decreed it with a plan), we all were already redeemed before we came to Christ.

Then, we learn from the sanctuary service that sin is only COVERED. It is only at the end of the Feasts time (Day of Atonement is the legal time sin is removed in heaven -- 8th days of Tabernacle is the manifestation time where sin is actually removed from our body when we are clothed with immortality) that sin is removed from the Sanctuary which represents our body temple.

And yes what Daryl put in bracket to bring an emphasis is extremely important -- only Jesus can remove the sin out of our body temple. But somehow we confuse that after we come to Jesus as most Christians take the same path as the Israelites has taken when they vowed to obey all the laws, statues, and commandments. This off-path is equal in replacing that section in bracket with "[that we] keep the promise"

And then, we forget that it is Jesus that removes sin and go down the same Jewish mindset that we are somehow more special and we are saved because He chose us and we chose Him; and loose sight that what He did with us He can and WILL DO to others also in HIS TIME according to His DECREE/PLAN set at the beginning of time.

The Harvest time right now, is NOT for the Church believers, and NOT for the Unbelievers. The time right now is to get the FIRST Harvest (Barley) ripened and harvested. Then it will be the turn of the rest of the believers, and then after the Grape harvest will follow just as illustrated in the Law.

Paul makes such reference to this in 1Cor 15:22,23

ALL (not some) Will be Made ALIVE

AV 1C 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive."

Notice the text it says "in Adam ALL die" -- the all here is NOT some -- it is all men that died because of Adam's sin.

Then Paul say in the same verse "EVEN SO in Christ shall ALL be made alive." --the all here is the same all as "in Adam ALL die" -- thus "in Christ shall ALL be made alive" -- NOT some but ALL -- the same ALL that died in Adam will be made alive in Christ.

But Every man will be made alive in his own Squadron

Let's now look at what Paul says with this context in the next verse :
23 "But every man in his own order[tagma, squadron]: Christ[christo, Anointed] the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Paul says every man "will be made alive" in v.22 -- Not all at the same time BUT in his own order of squadrons. The word tagma means squadron. Every man of the ALL of v.22 is divided into 3 squadrons. And according to the order of their squadron they will be made alive as depicted in the law with the 3 harvests.

Paul says the first squadron is "Christ[christos] the firstfruits[aparch]". This translation makes no sense for Jesus is not a squadron. He is one person. Without spending 3 paragraph to look closely at the Greek of "aparchE Christos" this can also be translated as the "anointed firstfruits". Christos is often translated as anointed because it means just that. Thus this translation would make more sense for two reason :
#1 the Barley squadron which are the Overcomers is also called the firstfruits in the NT.
#2 the Overcomers is a squadron for they will be more than one person.

To me the overcomers is the first group-squadron of men that Paul is referring to in the ALL of the 2nd part of v.22 to "be made alive"[=receive the immortal & incorruptible body].

The second squadron of the ALL is "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Which Christ's coming is Paul referring to? It is true that there are 2 comings, but it doesn't mean that when Jesus - the Judge (with His body -- the overcomers that are given thrones also to judge the world with Christ) comes to sit at the Great White throne after the Millennium is over, that event could also be considered as a coming. It is another great event in the history of the plan of salvation. Actually an epic of all events when finally the Judge that will bring "restitution of all things" in His Court Order that was preached from the beginning of time has finally come(Acts 3:21). That is another important "coming of Jesus" when He sits at the Great White throne with the overcomers(1st squadron) to judge the believers (the 2nd squadron) and the unbelievers (the 3rd squadron).

Christ will purify the 2nd squadron with fire and lashes(figuratively speaking according to what Jesus described in the Mat & Luke and according to what the law depicts in His plan of salvation). And when that fire and the lashes time are over, the 2nd squadron also "will be made alive" (v.22)

And then afterward Jesus will work on the 3rd squadron. Just like the 3 harvests works. -- all in its own order[tagma, squadron] and time.

The Law says there's a Jubilee and 3 Harvests :

The Jubilee is portrayed as 7x7years (49 years) + 1 year; but its fulfillment time is in Millennium not years by which the coming 7th millennium is a the first Sabbath Millennium. After the Sabbath Millennium is over, comes the Great White Throne Judgment Event. According to the Jubilee LAW, ALL debt(not some) are forgiven then and everyone returns back to their estate (glorified body which was Adam's first estate that he lost because of sin).

The 3 harvests are the following :

Barley at Jesus 2nd Coming : represents the Overcomers who are the Firstfruits of the Harvests.

Wheat after the Millenium : represents the remaining of Beleivers.

Grapes at the end of the Jubilee : represents the unbelievers.

Elle, you misunderstand Paul's word in 1 Cor. 15.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order:)

• Christ the firstfruits,
   
• afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
   
• 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.)

ALL indeed are made alive, to be sure. But consider that #3 when Christ puts an end to all rule, even death itself (that 'reigns' over us still) is destroyed. See Rev. 20:11-15. And it is also written, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels ...'" (Mat. 25:41)

Why do you obsess over the Law, seeking desperately for meaning, when Christ offers a full, complete and final interpretation?

///

Elle, would you be saying that Revelation talks of the second death, to really mean life? Though those will not be God's son?

Tx for bringing in further context of this quote. Before proceeding to your points made, I notice you didn't comment on the firstfruits despite you quoted v.20 that says Christ is the firstfruits. But let us not forget that Jesus was only the HEAD of the body and He is only ONE PERSON; thus He cannot be the "squadron" that 1Cor 15:23 is referring to. It is not only Jesus that is said to be the firstfruits in scriptures -- the overcomers are also referred as the firstfruit(Jm 1:18; Rev 4:14) because they constitute HIS body. The HEAD and the BODY are both Firstfruits and will form ONE "being"(or government) -- the Melchizedek Order.

In terms of which firstfruits(Jesus or the Overcomers) was Paul referring to in verse 23? I see it that it can only be the Overcomers, because :

#1. As I already mentioned, they are numerous in number -- thus they do make a "squadron". Whereas Jesus cannot be a "squadron" for He is only one person.

AV 1C 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. 23 "But every man in his own order[tagma, squadron]: Christ[christo, Anointed] the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

#2.This I haven't mentioned before -- the "Every man" in verse 23 is not referring to Jesus. It is referring to the ALL that died in Adam and the ALL that is made alive in Christ in verse 22. Paul was not referring to Christ as inside that ALL group. Christ is the ONE that reverse the curse that was put on Adam and ALL of his children.



Death is destroyed, but that doesn't mean that the people is LITERALLY destroyed also. You are making an assumption there.


Yes, but you need to understand what that "everlasting fire" which is the "lake of fire" really is according to the mind of Christ -- not according to Men's interpretation.


Because :
1. the Law is the foundation of all truth (Is 8:20; Deut 13)
2. the law is the expression of Jesus' character
3. Jesus and the Holy Spirit always speak according to the law. So if I want to understand something in the NT or something Jesus said; I need to first understand what He said in the Law and other parts of the OT about that subject.
4. Jesus or the Holy Spirit will not teach us anything contrary to the Law for Sin is define as the breakage of the law.


James, you cannot understand Jesus "full, complete and final interpretation" without a)knowing His symbolic language, b)knowing His mind; c) knowing His ways that are all expressed in the law.

Many takes Jesus' same words and come to various different interpretations. Jesus language that you allude to be an "interpretation" is not an "interpretation" at all. He spoke as much in "dark speeches"(symbolic language) as He did in the OT(read Num 12:1-8). The disciples even recognized that Jesus always spoke in Parables. He did explain the meaning of some of His parables to the disciples, but not all of them were interpretated. Thus most Christians does the mistake to take all of Jesus' words LITERALLY like I have seen you done many times.

That's a good thought. No I wouldn't equate the 2nd death as it means "life". Well at least not the "life" that is associated with the 1st resurrection and the 2nd. So it seems the word "life" needs to be further define. After some reflection, what I see from scripture; it seems there's two "stages" or "definition" of life (I lack here: better words needs to be used to express this better):

#1. The path of life : This is what Asygo brought forth which I though was a very good point to take note. We know that all seeds must die first to come to life. But that life starts as a little plant that takes time before they become mature in bearing fruits. Scripture seems to view this as "the path of life".

#2. When we are change : During our "path of life", death(mortality) still reside in us. We remain mortal until Jesus clothes(changes) us with immortality. This is what I am seeing what texts similar to the "dead raised to life"(Heb 11:35) means or text like Jn 5:29 of those "that have done good unto the resurrection of life". The "life" here means to be clothed with immortality and uncorruptness.

To make a distinction, their were many dead raised to life in scriptures like Lazarus, the sick little girl, and others ...; but they weren't changed to immortality when raised. But yet they were in essence "types" or symbolic representation of those dead who are raised to life that happens at the 1st resurrection and at the 2nd.


Life(#2) = Sonship & Inheritance

Notice Rev 21:7 talks about "Sonship" and "inherit all things". "Sonship" comes only to those that have grown into full maturity and are bearing the acceptable good fruits that are pleasing to the Lord.

The believers that have accepted Jesus, their "seed" have died; but many are only at the young plants stage still and are not able to bear any fruits. This analogy has limitation for I think this "seed" has to died many times as we know from Paul's revelation and from our own experiences, that this initial "seed" death is not the only "death" that we are to die. The initial "seed" death does not automatically makes us mature. This 2nd death(the spiritual death) needs to be died daily ....until we come to this "ultimate full death" that we are willing to put our entire life aside to become that "living sacrifice" like Jesus was at the cross. Jesus' death on the cross was for others. He traced what road we are to take and what "death end" we are to reach. I'm not talking about a literal death on a literal cross, but the same death in laying our whole life for the sake of others.

From studying the peace and burnt offering, this is the ultimately sacrifice where the Lord is bringing us all to. And that doesn't come right away at our conversion. It takes a lot of dying of self (thru the harsh discipline of the Lord) before we matured to the point that we are willing to put our whole life aside to become a "living sacrifice" for others like Jesus. That's only when we have reached that maturity and have become that acceptable fruit that the Father requires.

That "life" (#2 which equates to Sonship & inheritance) is only fulfilled when mortality(death) and corruptness is removed from our body when we are changed(actually clothed with life as depicted in the Feast of Tabernacle by living in a booth made of living branches). Before that event comes, our body are still clothed with mortality(death).

At Jesus 2nd coming, only the Overcomers, the first squadron(1 Cor 15:23), will have reached that maturity stage first. Let me emphasize they did not reached it because of their willingness throughout their growth stage. They have reached it because the Lord has disciplined them and brought them to that place. 100% of the credit goes to Jesus because of His promise He made of writing His laws in our hearts and minds. We cannot do .00009% of that work. What the Lord has done with the Overcomers(the firstfruits) He can and will also do to other. The definition of firstfruits according to the Law is that -- it is a promise of the remaining harvest by blessing the remaining harvests.

Actually I was talking about "death".


Do you have reason to believe it means not "sons" at first, but later? To me, the direct and clear meaning of the verse is never to be sons.

Group 1: reward for overcomers, sons
But
Group 2: burn, 2nd death.

I don't know how one can see that the 2nd Death means life.

Doesn't make any sense to me.

This sounds like a false second chance doctrine to me.

It just seems to me that those who insist that God never kills anyone are going to have a lot of trouble with the second death and the flood, as well as other instances.

God is Life! Yet, because of the entrance of sin, there is now death available. And yes, death is the absence of God who is life. God is never a hateful tyrant even when He is executing judgment. Amen! So, let us turn away from sin so we can have life in God. (Deut. 30:17-20)

Nope - no trouble at all. Jesus demonstrated the second death, and how was God involved? God does not kill, sin kills. Also: It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}

And

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

APL wrote;

"Nope - no trouble at all. Jesus demonstrated the second death, and how was God involved? God does not kill, sin kills."

Yes. Very much!

There aren't any Romans around to kill anyone in the second death. God rains down fire and brimstone to destroy the wicked. 1 Corinthians 15:26 tells us the last enemy destroyed is death itself. Satan can't even destroy that.

You see, neither the Romans nor Satan put Christ in the second death. They helped to put Christ in the first death, but, not the second death. Only God can do that. So, I don't find your point valid APL.

Now, I do agree that all this death is because of sin! Absolutely! That is how Satan and his angels are destroying themselves! But, God isn't going to wait for that to happen. He will do it Himself.

looks like there's confusion about what constitute the second death.

We know Jesus defined the two births.
....... the first birth is physical, the second is spiritual.

It's the same with the two deaths.
.........the first is physical, the second is spiritual.

The spiritual death is the death we die at our baptism,
............................is the death Paul said he dies daily.
............................is the death Jesus died at Getsamy when he gave his will up and submitted to the Father's will instead.
............................is the death we also die every time we give up our own will, and follow the Father's will.
............................is the death (submitting to the Father's will) Jesus died at his baptism
............................is the same death (submitting to the Father's will) we die at our own baptism.

kland ask if this second death equal life? i said not really not right away. it does lead to life thought .... we need to die this second death untill the LORD brings us to the ultimate DEATH END....when we are willing to become a TOTAL LIVING SACRIFICE by putting our entire life to the side for others. This is the ultimate second death that leads to the cross(figuratively speaking). When we reach this-- giving up our life to become a living sacrifice for others-- is when we have become mature and reached 'Sonship' become a true SON shares the Father's burden to work for others to bring them also into the Father's ultimate rest. The ultimate Sabbath rest is when we cease of all our own works(in all words or in all deeds) at all time and like Jesus only speaks what the Father told Him to say and only does what he saw the father doing. There's no rest or life without reaching that level.

(bold emphasis mine)

Blessings Elle,

I am not aware of anything in Scripture that teaches the second death is like some kind of purgatory. As if we must go through the second death until we finally die to self and are admitted into Heaven! I believe you have somehow merged the second death in Scripture with the Roman Catholic idea of purgatory.

As far as the second death is concerned, I believe there are two kinds.

One is the death to self we must experience while we are alive for Christ in the here and now. We die with Christ here on this earth. It is interesting how we experience this second death before the first death. Unless you are translated that is.

Secondly; the literal death of the lost after the thousand years. Both, their first and second deaths are physical and literal.

There is a literal aspect in the destruction of the death even. Death will never exist again after the second death.

I hope I was clear.

You should read the article by Ellen White in Signs of the Times, April 14, 1898 titled, "Christ and the Law." You will find a different picture of the fire from God than what you are depicting. The article also defines God's wrath. I'll let the article speak for itself. You can read it HERE

Christ suffered the death of a sinner, and how was God involved? Did God kill Christ? God does not kill sinners, sin kills sinners.

Would you be saying that those who refuse Christ will have a forced "baptism"?

If death is the absence of God, then why do you think God needs to kill those who choose to be absent from Him?

The Bible speaks so plainly about this that even a child should be able to understand it, therefore, why do some try to make the Bible say what it doesn't say?

When the Bible was inspired to be written, it wasn't to be so complicated that we had to be a Philadelphia lawyer to understand it, but that is what the devil would want a lot of people to think.

Are you talking about not everyone being saved?
Or are you talking about the Bible is clear that God kills?
For instance, regarding Saul the Bible says:

1Ch 10:14 But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Clear enough for a child?
Or not?

This thread is about whether or not everybody who ever lived on this earth will ultimately be saved.

Is the question this; Has God ever personally killed someone? - or - Has God ever had someone killed?

The answer is both.

As far as Daryl's point of what this thread is to be about; No! Ultimately, many if not most human beings that have ever lived will be destroyed by God. It's called the Lake of Fire.

Conclusion - God is the ultimate destroyer. And sin does not kill, God kills. NO!

Yes, sinners die, but why? That should be the question one asks.

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

Understanding how sinner die is a central theme of the Great Controvery over the character and government of God. Sin is THE cause of death. The inevitable results of sin is death, not execution by God.