What will we take to heaven....??

I was thinking over all the things that we have to get rid of before we go to heaven and they were too numerous, jealousy, pride, anger, just keep going from there.

So then I turned it around and went over what we truly need to have to take with us to heaven and came across what seems to stand out, one of which of course is our physical bodies which will be transformed. So what are the other things we will take....?

SOP gives us a heads up...

The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above. 13MR 82

The Bible says it in many different ways but here is my favorite....

1 Corinthians 13:1-10King James Version (KJV)

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Fortunately, this is God's work (Phil. 1:6) and not in my job description.

True it is God's work to transform our characters,
however, we are not robots with nothing to do concerning this, God gave us a mind to choose.
Do we choose to place our wills under (in submission to) God's will, or will we insist on doing things our own way?
God does not force the transformation, but if we are willing and daily submit self to Him, He will lead us into the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.

At the risk of derailing this thread as well, I will make a small comment:

I choose to place my will under (in submission to) God's will as I understand His will and not as someone tells me it is,

Good -- we are to seek God's will for our lives not depend on ministers or other people's opinions.
But now -- how do we know God's will?

Too many depend upon their feelings --
but according to scripture:

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
17:15 Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.

Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Also according to scripture:

John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

John 14:16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--"

John 6:45 "It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

So I'm not sure why one would advocate there is another essential component other than 1) the Holy Spirit and 2)Scripture. All others are suspect and not to be trusted. They can be helpful, but they are not essential.

O.K. so we do not derail the subject let's see --

Do scriptures tell us that our characters need to be transformed before we can enter God's glorious kingdom, or will God magically transform them at the second coming?

Now I know if one poster here, Elle, joins this conversation she claims everyone will be saved eventually, if they don't change now, God will see to it that they will be changed sometime in eternity.
But most of the rest of us here do not believe that.

Most of the rest of us posting on this forum, believe our present life on earth is probationary time -- the time we chose salvation from sin through Jesus, or to remain in sin and lose out eternity.


What do you believe?

I'm not real sure what you're flogging here, but let me clarify a few points from the way I see it.

We don't chose salvation, we chose Jesus.
We don't take anything to heaven, Jesus takes us.

That is in God's job description.


As mentioned in the "probation" thread, this concept needs fleshing out, because I'm not finding a lot of support for this idea. People seem to use the term a lot assuming that everyone else "knows what they mean." In reality it does not seem to have a real clear definition.

"Probation" has 2 meanings:
1)the release of an offender from detention, subject to a period of good behavior under supervision.

and/or

2)the process or period of testing or observing the character or abilities of a person in a certain role, for example, a new employee.

Neither of these two seem to fit with "salvation theory" for lack of a better term.

So offer up your definition of "probation" and how/when/why it closes.


btw, we are now officially derailed.

Choosing Jesus is choosing salvation.
There is no salvation anywhere else.

I will try to explain what is meant when we use the term
"time of probation" in spiritual terms.
It's probably closest to your first definition but not identical.

We are all offenders under the sentence of death, thanks to Adam plunging the human race into rebellion against God, as well as due to our sins.

Without Christ's "plan of salvation" there would be no hope, everyone would die and that would be the end of the human race.

But thanks to Christ's sacrifice we, the offenders are released from that eternal death sentence and given a period of grace in which we have the opportunity to choose Christ.

We are given a short life here on earth to accept Christ and invite Him into our lives to free us not only from guilt and the penalty of sin, but also from the power of sin, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the time of probation.

Once probation closes -- either at death, or just prior to the second coming at the end of this earth's sinful history, there is no more opportunity to change our "salvation status". We are either fully committed to Christ and assured of salvation, or we are following the rebel, Satan, in rebellion to Christ and His laws, and thus have rejected salvation and eternal life.

True. But choosing salvation is not necessarily choosing Jesus.



That's why we choose Jesus, not salvation.

While I agree that at death there is no more opportunity to make any choices, I think the opportunity to choose Jesus will remain open until His actual appearing in the heavens. It doesn't "close" at the time of trouble, or the Sunday law, or "after the mark of the beast is implemented," or any other such arbitrary event. Now, if one can demonstrate otherwise from the Bible, I'll be happy to examine the evidence.



I really think there has to be a third option here, that being the masses that have no idea what is going on, ie: neither "committed to Christ" or "following the rebel, Satan." Population growth is far out-stripping the rate at which the gospel is being spread, and if everybody must be given a fair shake at making an informed decision...Well, flat out Christ will never come. (Just an aside, I do not believe that Christ's coming is in any way dependent on "us." God will come when HIS time is ready. But don't get distracted by this.)

Just before he died the thief on the cross said to Jesus "Remember me" and Jesus said "You're in, Mate."

It's that simple.

We complicate it.

The issue of probation I addressed at on this thread.

As to the idea that the gospel could never reach the masses...
Why limit God?

I believe things will work out so everyone will be brought to decision.

Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Oh!? Which Bible texts says that? I found none! However, there is a law found in nNum 9:6-12 that says there is an opportunity for any man who missed keeping the 1st Passover(which symbolizes justification) to keep it on the 2nd month. (I will expand on this in the Are we at the close of probation?


I agree. The opportunity to choose Jesus will remain open for a much longer time that goes beyond His second coming.

Paul mentioned that there was another gospel being preached in his days. My understanding is that other gospel is based on the Old Covenant -- Man's ability to keep his promise to keep all the law. I believe no man will be saved by that old covenant.

However, as we all know, the Lord made another covenant that is call the new covenant. The new covenant is based on God's ability to keep His promise to write all His laws in our heart. The new covenant is NOT DEPENDANT ON MAN's CHOICE like it is with the old covenant, but on God's ability to keep His Word.

What I perceived in this and other discussions, that a lot of misunderstanding is due to not realizing that the Lord made a new covenant that cancels out the old covenant. The Church body took a major change after the death of Jesus that Paul devoted most of his writings to contrast these two covenants and emphasizing the power of the new.

However, it didn't take long with the early church to revert back into the old covenant mentality. This "rebellion" (to put it in dedication's 2 camps limited type of view) was the Lord's plan (not the devils).

I view those that are still in the old covenant mindset whose faith is on Man's ability "to choose Jesus" {in following all that He has said} ... I don't view this as a well-informed rebellion, but a stage of spiritual growth that is necessary to come to understand that Man cannot keep that ridiculous promise he has made. Man thinks he can....that's typical but not a mature well informed position.

The attempt to try to keep the Old covenant is a necessary stage to teach us that we cannot keep the law and opens our minds to the new covenant(God's promise to write His laws in our heart). That's the only way man can keep the law(or be saved) -- it is thru the new covenant whose timing fulfillment is the Lord's and NOT Man's.

As Nadi has quoted...I believe the Lord will finish what He has started...and none is dependent on Man's choice but all is dependent on the Lord's ability to write all His laws in our hearts as He has vowed He would do.

Oooops sorry. The point I wanted to make about death has been addressed already.

As far as probation is concerned, probation is inevitable.

Regarding the time at which judgment is final, i.e. the close of probation, and especially the idea of second chances beyond the second coming, I believe that there’s several places in the Bible showing that the time to be saved does not extend up to or after the moment of the second coming.


The wicked on that day are never described as repenting. Instead, they’re described as mourning, hiding, and expecting wrath.
Mat 24:30
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Rev 6:16-17
"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


Already providing an answer to their question, the Bible describes only one class that will be able to stand.
Psa 24:3-4
"Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully."
Rev 14:5
"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."


We can have no expectation that we would be capable of finding a repentance left to the last minute. By then we would be "...hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Heb 3:13) and such a repentance would be for fear of imminent judgment, not due to sudden love of Jesus and holiness.

It’s only by coming to Jesus, with all of our sins, that we can be cleansed. We cannot cleanse ourselves, because if we could then Jesus did not have to die. This is an important point because Jesus, who officiates as our High Priest in Heaven, must be there to plead His blood so that our sins can be blotted out, just as the high priest on earth offered the blood of sacrifice in the temple. When Jesus leaves the temple to return here is when probation closes. At that time there will no longer be an intercessor for sin. The righteous having been made clean will not need one, for "where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin" (Heb 10:18), and to the wicked it will never again be offered.
Heb 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (KJV)
"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (NIV)


For whether the wicked after have a second chance after the second coming, let’s look at the parables describing it in Matthew 25 and Luke 16. In the case of the 10 virgins, those who were not ready found only a closed door. For the servant who hid his master’s talent and did not increase it, what he had was taken away. The man who tried to participate in the wedding feast without the proper clothes was cast out. The Bible offers abundant hope for the salvation of the righteous, but absolutely zero hope for salvation to those who rejected it and the terms of it by the time of the second coming. It’s to the righteous that it’s said "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5) but those still with sins at the second coming have to hear the words "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat 7:23) Never is a second chance described because this is it; we’re already living our second chance right now. We have all sinned and are all given one life, this life, to be reconciled to God.

Welcome Josh M, I was blessed by your post.

Personally, in my studies of Scripture, the idea of a third option seems comforting to many. The Three Angels Messages don't mention a third option. I am not aware of a third option anywhere in Scripture! But, in the end, we all have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Welcome back to the forum Josh. I think you were addressing my posts, so I did an effort to reply back.

I'm sorry for this reply to be long but there were lots of things to address.

Josh I agree with these texts but your application of these are lacking of the full scope that the law and other scriptures gives. My understanding is that the unfaithful servants who are believers will be mournful when they see that they didn't make the 1st Harvest which is the Barley Harvest. The first harvest constitute of the overcomers who are grown to be the leaders and will constitute Christ Body at His 2nd coming who will rule with Him during the Millennium. (Rev 5:10; 20:4-6)


What question are you referring to? Are you referring to what you said at the beginning of your post: “the time at which judgment is final, i.e. the close of probation” or the OP’s question? Despite, you haven’t provided an Biblical answer to neither.


These texts and others of the sorts describes those that are groomed and elected to become the 144K – the overcomers – the body of Christ – the sons of the Melchisedek Order – and other names employed in the Bible to described this first harvest group that can be viewed as the Barley Company. Barley was the first crop to be harvested in the law.

Josh, according to the law there are 3 harvests not only 1 as your position assumes. The first harvest, the Barley Company, only constitute a small group of people -- the least in size of the 3 harvests. Paul and the law describes this first group as the firstfruits by which by purpose gives the promise of a greater harvests to come to the people. There are actually 2 other harvests after the Barley group.

Here are the harvests in order of their Feast seasons :

1. The Barley Company @ Passover : that represents Christ & His Body(the Overcomers) : These overcomers only overcame because Jesus work on them first and put them thru the fire (not a literal fire) first.. That’s the only reason. They are not better or more special than the others and they know it.

2. The Wheat Company @ Pentecost: that represents the Congregation (the Church)

3. The Grape Company @ Tabernacle: that represents the Nations and unbeleivers.

The first triage (separating the sheep[1.Barley Company] from the goats[2.Wheat Company]) happens at Jesus 2nd coming. The second triage (removing the abusing servants from the 2.Wheat Company and put them with the 3.Grape Company) happens after the Millennium.

So these two "cut off" time does exist; but these texts doesn't say that’s there's no other chances for the 2.Wheat Company or the 3. Grape Company. These two other harvests will matures in their own harvest process, own season and own time.

Most believers will fall in the Wheat harvest company and their works will be judged also by fire, but scripture is clear that that same fire will save them like fullers soap. Thus it is NOT a LITERAL FIRE they will be experiencing at that time. It is a figure of speech using physical earthly symbolism explaining spiritual realities to come.

1Co 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

In this text above, I believe Paul is describing the fate of the 2. Wheat company at the Great Judgment throne who are the "unfaithful servants" in Jesus' parables. From Rev 20:4-6 and other scriptures, we know the Barley company is already changed and been ruling with Christ already for 1000 years. So I believe, Paul is not talking about the Barley company, but the unfaithful servants that will undergo this Fire testing after the Millennium.

My understanding is most unfaithful servants will receive their reward after being tested by the fire. Many will only have "wood, hay, stubble" (symbolizes works from “the flesh” or aka “the carnal man” or aka as “the natural man”). At harvest, the outside woody stubble is first removed from the grain and burned in the fire. Do note that farmers never burns their grain at harvest. That fire only burns the “fleshy” works which is the outside shell that 1 Cor 3 indicates.

Notice that 1Cor 3 implies that some unfaithful believers(==2. Wheat company) will have valuable works that are "gold, silver, precious stones” which these will NOT burn in the fire and they will received their reward accordingly as describes in many of Jesus faithful & unfaithful servants parables. Again those that will receive a reward here, are NOT the Barley company that resurrected before the Millennium, but the Wheat company that resurrects after the Millennium.

Then in a case were an “unfaithful servants” is found having all his works being "wood, hay, stubble", 1Cor 3 says that despite all their works burns(meaning all the works he did in his life was all carnal -- none of it was commanded by the Lord) -- according to 1Cor 3:14 these people are still saved. They are still viewed by the Lord as valuable grain that can be used. Once all the stubble and hay are removed, the grain can be used for good food for the Lord's feast table.


The statements above have so many holes and lacks. I will address a few :

1. What last minute are you talking about? God is not limited by time unless He specifies a time limit which He did in the Law of Jubilee. The law of Jubilee does NOT even allude remotely that salvation is only extended before the graves. That's not Biblical -- thus another teaching of men.

The law of Jubilee limit the time a sinner with or without a redeemer to pay his debt. All sins are reckoned as a debt.(check out the Lord's prayer...sin and debt is used interchangeably). This time limit is Grace built in the law. The Lord has bound Himself BY LAW to free all man at the time of the Jubilee and to cancels all debts whether the people has paid it all or not. I think you need to read Lev 25 where the Lord expressed these limits that He instituted in His plan of salvation.

2. BTW “sudden love of Jesus and holiness” does not happen without Jesus putting someone thru the fire first...because scripture is clear that "NONE seeketh God"(Rom 3:11). Everyone was hardened by sin for all have sinned.

3. In Is 45:23 the Lord swore that "every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance"... there is a genuine repentance that happens after the great White throne. (see Post#181160 for more info on this topic)

4. And then should I mention that there’s 3 levels of repentance represented in the Sanctuary with its 3 veils before entering each chambers. The veils symbolizes the tearing of the flesh before we can enter the chamber.

The 3 chambers are :

1)Outer Court where the congregation were allowed to enter and bring their sacrifices. This represents the Passover Level of faith where our Spiritual journey starts by being justified by applying Jesus blood on our heart altar

2)the Holy Place where the Levites were allowed but not the congregation. This represents the Pentecost Level of faith where the believer starts to learn hearing God's voice and serve Him

3)the Most Holy Place where the High Priests and His Sons were allowed and not the other Levites. This represents the Tabernacle Level of faith where the believer finally enter the Lord's rest. Meaning the believer doesn't speak his own words anymore or do his own works anymore. Like Jesus example on earth, he repeats only what He hears the Father says and he only do what He sees the Father doing.

Each chamber represents a level of spiritual maturity that each requires a tearing of the flesh(==repentance) before entering. Those that are in the Outer Court are not mature enough yet to work in the Holy Place and even less in the Most Holy Place. However, I believe at the end Jesus will succeed to shepherd everyone thru the 3 chambers and “subdue all things under His feet… so the Lord God can be all in all”(1Cor 15:28).

5. And then there’s the question of what type of seed you were created to be(based on Rom 9 and other texts of the sort). Not every one is a Barley seed. Some are Wheat seeds or grapes that requires different harvest tools and process. Each type of seeds have a different growing season and harvest time.


The parables of the 10 virgins with oil and the faithful servants describes what will happen to the overcomers (the Barley company Harvest) versus the other believers that has not enough oil in their lamps (the Holy Spirit did not prepare them…thus they are not ready yet) who are also the “unfaithful servants”. So basically it is only talking about the first triage of the first two Harvest company who are all only the believers. It is not referring to the unbelievers in that parable.


Josh the Bible tells us that Jesus came for the unrighteous or the loss. He didn't come to save the righteous.


Paul is quoting Deut 4:31 there and the Lord is talking about His Church that you term as "the righteous one". For sure, they have been "imputed righteousness" like anyone else in the World but I think you would agree they are far from being righteous without the work of the fire(Holy Spirit) to remove all that dross and shaft.

So in essence I disagree with you, I think in Deut 4:31 the Lord is talking about everyone -- because Scripture says He is the Savior of the World(Jn 12:47, etc), all will repent(Is 45:23,etc...), and by the end[of the Jubilee -- 49,000 yrs(=antitype --1000 yrs per 1 Jubilee year)] He will succeed to have subdue everyone(Phil 3:21;etc...) by then.


Josh, you are mis-applying this texts. This text are talking about the believers who has "prophesied in thy name" who has "cast out devils" and has "done wonderful works". In v.23 the point Jesus is making by saying "I never knew you" is that these works was not commanded by Him. Meaning whatever voice these believers heard; it wasn't His. All these works are not from Jesus and are only "wood, hay, stubble" because these believers never heard Jesus voice to do these things. So they acted according to their own will and not according to the Lord's will.

Show, me from the Bible where it says that the chance of salvation ends during our lifetime before Jesus 2nd coming. I have found none.


However we have in Num 9:6-12 stating that there is a 2nd opportunity for justification(Passover) offered to those that are defiled which the 2 cases covers everyone that will resurrect after the Millennium.

The Second Passover == A 2nd Opportunity for Justification For ALL

Num 9 states two reasons why some people were not being able to keep the first Passover.

a) Defiled because of touching a dead body (Num 9:6,7,10). In our state of mortality we are touching a “dead body”. So legally speaking this includes everyone that will resurrect at the 2nd resurrection after the Millennium -- scriptures refers to them as "dead" in Rev 20:12.

b)Defiled because has been away on a long journey (Num 9:10). Being away on a long journey is being away from our home which spiritually means being away from the Lord's house or spiritually speaking -- being away far away from the Lord.

In this TYPE, the Lord prophetically speaks of all who resurrects after the Millennium : the Wheat Company(the unfaithful believers) and the grape Company(non-believers). These people are given a 2nd opportunity to be justified. This 2nd opportunity is established by LAW.

This theory of Men that someone has to repent before the grave... doesn't hold the test of scriptures for 3 reasons(and there's more) that I have mention :

1. No scripture to support that

2. Num 9 which says everyone is given a 2nd opportunity for justification

3. the law of Jubilee establishes that EVERYONE is returned or restored to their original estate having their complete debt forgiven whether or not they have paid it before the time of Jubilee comes or not.

Elle, are you saying a literal allowance translates into a spiritual application in spite of evidence against such application?

You think the "grape Company" is saved?
Is it possible to disprove that or is that just a belief you have?
That is, what would it take to disprove that for you?

Kland what do you mean with "literal allowance"? Can you be more specific by using the 2nd Passover texts and statement I made that you are objecting.


Please provide these evidences.


Yup! The Lord gave us as a pattern of 3 Harvests in His law by which in the Law these harvests are all harvested and the fruits of it consumed. This illustrates the plan of salvation. The whole law is prophetic and Jesus said every word of it will be fulfill and none of it will pass without being fulfilled.

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim 2:4


Well, I don't care what I personally believe or what Mo or Jo believes either. What I care is the Lord's interpretation-view-intention-definition-etc.... that can only be behold by having taking all scriptures of the subject into account and bring these on the table to the Lord to teach you His interpretation of it, by which is only possible by hearing the Lord small voice and guidance when studying.

I very well know my understanding is lacking and needs adjustment. That's why I will always provide as much scriptures as a reasonable post can handle with my take of what it says. I am very open to be wrong but I need some sound scriptures support to be shown that.

Thus I have always invited you and anyone else here to really study, but most people are not here to study nor know how to be a real Biblical students. Most people are here to socialize which is fine to have other motives.

Well you shouldn't be out to disprove anyone. Right? We all should know that we do not know all the truth and are under the Lord's tutelage(Gal 4;1Jn 2:27).

If the Lord draws us into a discussion, well its because He wants us to study it a little deeper, get more understanding, see how the Lord will guides the discussion, etc.... right?

However, to get a study-discussion going at times I do take someone post, like I do often with dedication, who does provide a good presentation of her understanding position with scriptures --- and then I go thru it and address all the specifics things that is not sound. It's not that I want to disprove dedication, I am exercising "testing all things". While doing that tedious exercise, many impressions comes from the way things are presented, look at words not looked before, look at scriptures at dedication's angle, etc... I always personally benefit from doing this exercise and it gets the discussion moving forward.

I am very grateful for anyone who want to disprove test what I say, because you may consider something that I haven't and see things I did not see before.

I strongly believe, like Ellen & James counseled us many times, that it is a Christian duty to study the Lord's words and tune our ears to better hear Him. My thing is we need to test all things and that's what I've been doing this seriously for the past what 9 years now????

I understand you don't agree with my position, but that position didn't come without serious personal studying behind it. To start, I do need sound scriptures. Then after studying all that you presented and if it agrees with all scriptures..... Then the next step would be to seek a confirmation of this from the Holy Spirit.

As I have invited many, including you, to truly study the question at hand, I would recommend to TEST any statement I make by first addressing the supporting scriptures brought forth by asking these following questions :

- is the scripture taken out of context?
- Is my paraphrase or statement based on that scripture reflects what the scriptures really says?
- Is there than one scripture used to base this statement?
- Are there other contradictory scriptures?
- Check the scripture translation -- is it a bias translation? are the key words true to its original source word in Hebrew or Greek.
- Do a word study of the topic in question to find God's definition of the subject via scriptures by finding the Hebrew and its correspondance Greek word and looking all the application of it in scriptures.
- Put aside your heart idols(your preconceived ideas of the topic) and ask the Lord to tell you what He thinks of the subject.

I hope that helps.

Glad to hear you're interested in seriously studying. Wonderful!.

Great. Well could you start by answering the following that you failed to support your statement with scriptures and address Num 9 that I believe counter your statement.


Here's the link of Post#181792 where I quote and expanded a little on Num 9(see the last part of the post).

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten"

Psalms 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

Isa. 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness."

Ps. 6:5 "Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?"

Ps. 115:17 "It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to the place of silence;"

I disagree with your numerous and fanciful "laws" and prefer to stick to legitimate, rational bible study methods.

??? Do you include what the whole law(Pentateuch) says in your studying methods to come to know what is truth or not?

Elle, you have stated before that whether you yourself keep "the whole law" or not isn't relevant, but what you say.

Elle, please respond to the following where I point out the texts you claim do not exist.

Sorry Nadi, I didn't see you had responded with texts. I meant to get back to you anyway using kland comment to me regarding "fanciful" application of the law. I'm not the one who talks in symbolic language (see Num 12:8). It is the Lord who speaks in such a way that requires the Spirit to solve the puzzle. I will get back to this by answering kland.


Nadi, none of these texts suggest that there ain't any other opportunity after the resurrection of the dead. These text all refers to our state when we are in the graves(the unseen). But we all know that we all will be call out of the graves either at the 1st or 2nd resurrection. Jesus describes being dead or being in the grave(the unseen) as a SLEEP.

So, none of these texts address what happens after they come out of the unseen (once they are resurrected), they will have their minds, body, and spirit back and they will be aware of the Judgment process and what the Lord is saying and doing.

These text only says what you cannot do while you are in the grave(the unseen). However what happens after the resurrection is another story and they will be able to do what they weren't able to do while being in the grave. None of these texts makes reference to our state after the resurrection nor is stating whether or not there is another opportunity.

Just a side note here : only your soul goes to the grave(the unseen) according to scriptures...Right? Your body goes back to dust and your Spirit returns to the Lord. see (Ps 146:4 you quoted and other scriptures).

Here is what the texts you brought forth is saying :

A. You(the soul) don't know anything, nor any reward, nor any memory (Ecc 9:5) of course when it is in the grave(the unseen).

B. Psalms 146:4 list where Spirit, Body and soul goes : "His breath [ruwach] goeth forth[returns to God], he[his body] returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts[connections in mind=soul] perish."

C. In the pit (grave) you cannot praise, sing, or "hope for faithfulness"(you cannot hope to do anything in the grave) (Isa. 38:18; Ps 6:5; and 115:17 )

So at the 2nd ressurection of the dead after the Millennium, when everyone's soul will come out of the graves (the unseen), would you agree that the Lord will bring back the soul to its body and spirit of individuals together again, so these people will undergo the Judgment at the Great White throne?

These are the texts we need to look carefully at.

While I personally disagree with your position on several points, I do find it intriguing, as I have not encountered this line of reasoning prior.

However, as all things must be proved by the Word, give me a little time to formulate a response.

And thanks for the challenge...

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Sorry, I still cannot read minds kland. Tell me what these texts says to you. Be explicite.

I don't understand your point about probationary time. For my two cents worth; there is a time when salvation is available for mankind and a time when it is not. The time when salvation is available for mankind is probationary time.

I disagree with the use of the term "probation." As I pointed out, every aspect of the term demands or implies behavioral performance of some kind, and as such it is a works-based concept. We are given a certain amount of time to get our characters in line with Christ's, etc., etc.

The problem with that is that salvation is by grace through faith; there are no works involved. We are powerless to change our characters. (Even your prophet EGW says this.)

So, while you are correct to say that "there is a time when salvation is available for mankind and a time when it is not.", this is not "probationary time." This is "choosing time," and as long as a person is alive and cognizant they can choose, right up to (IMHO) the time when Christ returns.

So "probation" never closes, because it was never open.

Matt. 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matt. 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matt. 7:21 (Jesus spoke) Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.


Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral, nor impure person, nor covetous, or idolatrous person, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
5:7 Be not partakers with them.
5:8 For once you were in darkness, but now you partake of light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Gal. 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
6:8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if it is true that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 But if Christ is in you, the flesh is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
8:11 If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if we live after the flesh, we shall die: but if we through the Spirit are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

CONCLUSION

No, we are not saved by our works, they do not "earn" us any merits -- salvation is only in Christ. However, that does not mean the disobedient who simply "choose" to say they believe will be saved.
The choice to accept Christ involves the turning from sin and full surrender to Christ IN OBEDIENCE to His will. That is called "faithfulness".
Anything less is resisting the Holy Spirit and denying Christ.

If probation is not open -- we are all doomed, for all have sinned (sin is rebellion against God as our Master and Lord). Probation is the time when the Holy Spirit calls us to repentance, to "wash our robes in the blood of Christ, and leads us out of sin into a life of obedience with Christ.
Our works do not save us, but they do show who our Master and Lord is. They show who has our allegiance and our hearts.

dedication,
Not surprisingly, you completely missed the point of my last post.

The problem with this definition of "sin" is that it is, while generically correct, is quite ambiguous, perhaps intentionally. It lacks any kind of concreteness, and is open to each person's interpretation.

For example, I consider it a sin to screw my brother's wife, but the Lord put Onan to death for not making her pregnant (which obviously implies intercourse.)

I consider genocide to be a sin, yet the Lord repeatedly ordered genocides in the OT. (Jericho, David and the Edomites, Saul and the Amalekites 1 Samuel 15:2-3, etc.)

Polygamy is considered sin, yet Jacob had 2 wives AND screwed their handmaids as well, and ALL the offspring were considered tribes of Israel. Abraham couldn't produce a child by Sarah, so he humped her handmaid hoping to get a child. All God said about that was "No, your offspring will come by Sarah. Give Ishmael an inheritance and send him away."

So to say "sin is rebellion against God as our Master and Lord" means nothing without some indication of how you translate that into today's socio-cultural mix. And how you interpret that is different from how I interpret that and how someone else interprets that and on and on and on.

That depends on what you mean by "works based". All because some work or deed is required doesn't mean it is work based. For instance; Keeping God's commandments is required to demonstrate love and faith toward God and love and respect toward mankind, yet, you can earn salvation by it.

You are quite correct to say that it depends on the meaning of "works based." (More specifically, understanding what I intend when I use the term.) As such I would like to point out that my opposition is to the term "probation" and not the idea.

We (humans) are on earth for a finite period of time, during which we may choose to follow Christ, or choose not to follow Christ. This is not "probation" because it is not based on behavior (as the term probation denotes) but upon choosing. Actually, it is God who is on probation as WE learn what HIS character (ie: behavior) is like. (There are huge implications to the above statement regarding choice which are outside the scope of this thread.)

I am actually a strong believer in living a certain way because one is a Christian. Our behavior ("works", if you like) reveals our character, hence our choice. This is one of the reasons I reject ANY church as being "God's True Church" since the behavior of the leadership reveals their universal lack of Christian character and commitment to God. This is MOST true in churches which make the loftiest claims for themselves. ("Church" is here being used to indicate denominations.)


By the way, I am assuming you meant we CANNOT earn salvation by it. But please clarify.

Thank you, Nadi. I meant to say "can't earn salvation."

You said none of Nadi's texts makes reference to our state after the resurrection nor is stating whether or not there is another opportunity.
I gave some other texts.

Yes.... I was following... and I repeat myself... "Tell me what these texts says to you. Be explicite." or in Jesus own words "How readeth thou?" Luk 10:26

The underline means "please state your point clearly to me. How does the text you quoted relate to my point made?".

Ummmm.... They were devoured.

? What type of devouring do you read? Literal, spiritual, literal fire from heaven? be explicite! and then what's your point with this with what I've said?