Avoid Contention Promote Harmony
Posted By: Avalee
Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/24/04 07:49 AM
quote:
Manuscript Releases
Vol. 15
Page 20-22
Ony by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. Proverbs 13:10
The Reformation was greatly retarded by making prominent differences on some points of faith and each party holding tenaciously to those things where they differed. We shall see eye to eye erelong, but to become firm and consider it your duty to present your views in decided opposition to the faith or truth as it has been taught by us as a people, is a mistake, and will result in harm, and only harm, as in the days of Martin Luther. Begin to draw apart and feel at liberty to express your ideas without reference to the views of your brethren, and a state of things will be introduced that you do not dream of.
My husband had some ideas on some points differing from the views taken by his brethren. I was shown that however true his views were, God did not call for him to put them in front before his brethren and create differences of ideas...
There are the main pillars of our faith, subjects which are of vital interest, the Sabbath, the keeping of the commandments of God. Speculative ideas should not be agitated, for there are peculiar minds that love to get some point that others do not accept, and argue and attract everything to that one point, urging that point, magnifying that point, when it is really a matter which is not of vital importance, and will be understood differently. Twice I have been shown that everything of a character to cause our brethren to be diverted from the very points now essential for this time, should be kept in the background.
Christ did not reveal many things that were truth, because it would create a difference of opinion and get up disputations, but young men who have not passed through this experience we have had, would as soon have a brush as not. Nothing would suit them better than a sharp discussion.
If these things come into our conference, I would refuse to attend one of them; for I have had so much light upon the subject that I know that unconsecrated and unsanctified hearts would enjoy this kind of exercise. Too late in the day, brethren, too late in the day. We are in the great day of atonement, a time when a man must be afflicting his soul, confessing his sins, humbling his heart before God, and getting ready for the great conflict. When these contentions come in before the people, they will think one has the argument, and then that another directly opposed has the argument. The poor people become confused and the conference will be a dead loss, worse than if they had had no conference. Now when everything is dissension and strife, there must be decided efforts to handle, [to] publish with pen and voice these things that will reveal only harmony.
Posted By: Midge Weir
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/25/04 07:29 AM
This chap. 5 of Matthew tells of the 'trouble' in the church in the last days.
The denomination is in trouble today. The world along with its traditions of men and compromise is in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination.
This chapter is directed to the "true church".
This chapter is directions to His diciples on how to work "within" the church.
Matthew 10:5 and on:
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, "go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samarians enter ye not:
(6)But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.....
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not send peace, but a sword.
I know that God's people will work together.
Satan will attempt to divide and conquer.
It will be the ones who live and work by a "Thus saith the Lord" that will get the work done.
NEVER did Christ do or say anything to stir up an argument or cause division, and any sincere Christian would follow that example. What a sad and serious thing to be one who would discourage a soul, unnecessairly.
EGW is addressing the possibility and the reality here in this statement.
But we need to always keep the whole picture in front of us.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/25/04 01:43 AM
Midge
I may be a bit slow here but could you please clarify how your comments relate to:
a) Avalees post
b) Matthew 5
c) Matthew 10
Thank you.
This statement
quote:
NEVER did Christ do or say anything to stir up an argument or cause division, and any sincere Christian would follow that example.
is not true. A simple search in the gospels with the word "divide" will show you that both Jesus acts and words divided the people. I also have a quote from acts where Paul, whom I think its quite safe to say was a sincere christian, knowingly caused a major fight in the priestly courtroom he was brought to.
John 9
16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath."
But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.
Bold here to mark out that they where discussing actions.
John 10
18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
19At these words the Jews were again divided.
Acts 23: 6Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead." 7When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)
9There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?" 10The dispute became so violent that the commander was afraid Paul would be torn to pieces by them. He ordered the troops to go down and take him away from them by force and bring him into the barracks.
Finaly Luke 12
49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
/Thomas
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/25/04 03:34 AM
We are to avoid contention and promote harmony but not at the cost of compromising already known or established truth.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/25/04 05:47 PM
Amen Daryl. We must always stand for the truth when it comes to the pillars of our faith.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/27/04 09:02 AM
Daryl, I think I agree with your position, but maybe I'm not so sure I understand what you're saying. God made of alot compromises in the OT. What is more important, to win an argument or to win a friend? Perhaps compromising can buy time to build the friendship, and then later on the issue could be redressed? A compromise doesn't necessarily mean telling a lie or agreeing with a lie. Sometimes it means declaring a truce or a time out so as not to lose a friend. It can also mean agreeing to disagree, thus avoiding contention and promoting harmony.
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/27/04 11:30 PM
Maybe Daryl wrote what he wrote in light of the 3 previous posts in the thread... in which case we would be discussing another kind of compromise than the one you are adressing here Mike.
/Thomas
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/27/04 11:33 PM
Mike,
In what way did God compromise truth in order to avoid contention and maintain harmony?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 12:01 AM
Allowing polygamy and kings are two examples of how God compromised in order to meet His main objectives. Not enforcing the death penalty when David sinned. Allowing Captain Naaman to be in pagan temples is another one. There are many instances where God compromised to keep things on track.
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 12:29 AM
God is also allowing sin to continue to do its dirty work, however, God's allowing it isn 't God's approving of it.
The same is true of the examples you cited in the Old Testament.
Did God continue to do this in the New Testament?
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 01:57 AM
Jesus did not work to correct preconceived misconceptions. "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." John 16:12. Living under Roman rule was a compromise. The Protestant Reformation was a compromise. That is, God was leading men and women throughout the Reformation even though their knowledge of the truth was incomplete. The Great Disappointment was a compromise. Health reform was a compromise until 1863. In all these cases God overlooked the fact that their knowledge of the truth was incomplete and incorrect.
Posted By: Midge Weir
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 02:00 AM
vastergotland
You have asked me to clarify how my comments relate to Avalee's post. I will try.
It may help to be clear about my position as a Seventh-day Adventist Christian.
I have taken my name from the books of the denomination, because after much study, came to the conclusion that if I remained there [connected to the denomination] and worshipped with them, I could be distracted, responsible for corporate sins and lose my eternal life.
I came to this conclusion after many years of observing compromise and blatant disobedience by the denomination as a whole.
I read in the Bible that we are to separate ourselves from this kind of people.
I consider myself seeking to be one of the redeemed when Christ comes to take His people home.
I think that there are many people who find themselves feeling a fierce loyalty to their church, but lack the personal walk with God. I believe that if this was not the case, then there would not be the compromise and disobedience in the church, as there is.
The denomination, as a whole, refused an invitation to a corporate repentance in the early 1950s. The statement that was to represent the corporate body, was "it is not possible".
Why, in this modern age, is it not possible???
It was required by God and accomplished several times in the old Testament, but "it is not possible" for us today?? What has happened to us??
GOD HELP US!!
There is a very solemn study on CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY that applies to each individual that professes to be waiting for our Lord's soon return.
Briefly stated; If we are connected to persons or institutions, WHO PROFESS to be Christians and approve of sin, by participation or silence, then we, ourselves, become as guilty as the perpetrator. Please study the story of Achan.
I will not go further with those thoughts. If someone would like to know more, I will be happy to provide documentation, and references.
Having said these things, with as much heart as I know how, I will continue with my response to you, Vastergotland.
I find fault with the statement that Avalee has chosen to provide together with the statement from Proverbs 13:10, which clearly says that when our motive is pride, then contention is agitated, but when our motive is truly to defend truth, because of our love for our fellowman and for Christ, then we will speak wisdom.
The statement of Manuscript that was provided, I believe has serious error in it.
I do not believe that EGW penned these words under inspiration from God.
Here is why.
"We shall see eye to eye erelong,.."
there is no guarantee that this will happen for all of us, only the diligent Bible students and those that are overcomers
""..but to become firm and consider it your duty to present your views in decided opposition to the faith or truth as it has been taught by us as a people, is a mistake, and will result in harm..."
There is no way that we could be sure what she might be referring to here, but to present the message AS IT WAS IN THE EARLY YEARS OF OUR DENOMINATION, today, goes blatantly against the modern understanding of our beliefs in some important areas.
"Begin to draw apart and feel at liberty to express your ideas without reference to the views of your brethren..."
Many, who are feeling this fierce loyalty to the Church, as opposed to God and truth, will feel a need to "correct" one who is standing against the church views and conclusions and see them as divisive.
"My husband had some ideas on some points differing from the views taken by his brethren. I was shown that HOWEVER TRUE HIS VIEWS WERE, God did NOT call for him to put them in front before his brethren and create differences of ideas...."
God deals in truth and I cannot believe that He would ever condone keeping it silent. This concept is NOT scriptural. It is??
"Christ did not reveal many things that were truth, because it would create a difference of opinion and get up disputations,..."
I would need to see a scriptural reference for this. I am 'open' does anyone have one??
"Now when everything is dissension and strife, there must be decided efforts to handle, [to] publish with pen and voice these things that will reveal ONLY [????] HARMONY."
Vastergotland, do you agree with this part??
EGW said:
"And now to all who have a desire for truth I would say: Do not give credence to unauthenticated reports as to what Sister White has done or said or WRITTEN. If you desire to know what the Lord has revealed through her, read HER published works." 5T p.696
" I said, "If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read HER published books.
[8RH 01-26-05 Notes of Travel, #2 (Moline and Battle Creek) pr. 19]
Think about why she would give us this caution.
She knew that the books were vulnerable.
As for Matthew 5 and Matthew 10:
I think it was a mistake for me to refer to Matthew 5. Please excuse that reference.
I looked up the reference for the verse where Jesus said that He did not come to bring peace, but a sword and found that in that very chapter, is where Jesus told us how to work for “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. Matthew 10:34 I find that verse a bit contrary to the words in the statement that Avalee has presented.
Now, as for the statement that you declare is ‘not true’, allow me to call your attention to the fact that the statement says that Christ NEVER did or said anything FOR THE PURPOSE OF stirring up an argument or FOR THE PURPOSE OF causing division. THAT WAS MY POINT, Vastergotland.
What He did and said, DID INDEED stir up commotion, - but that is not what He had in mind when He presented truth to the people. He was not a ‘trouble maker’.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 02:25 AM
Midge, it is clear in the SOP that Sister White did not share your views regarding the church. And Jesus said the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest. True, we must not fellowship with such church members, as if nothing is amuck, after the church service.
7T 16
Enfeebled and defective, needing constantly to be warned and counseled, the church is nevertheless the object of Christ's supreme regard. {7T 16.4}
TM 49
Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard. {TM 49.1}
Matthew
13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Posted By: Midge Weir
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 03:23 AM
Mike,
You are clearly referring to the Denominational Church and I am referring to the Church referred to in Revelation 12:17 "... the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
When Christ was here he worked with a pure church and wept for the "Church" that He wanted to gather to him and they would not, which was Jerusalem.
According to 8T p. 250 and 251 EGW wrote about how that unless the church repented, she would abhore herself.
As far as I can find, this statement was written in 1903.
Who can truthfully say: "Our gold is tried in the fire; our garments are unspotted by the world"? I saw our instructor pointing to the garments of so-called righteousness. Stripping them off, He laid bare the defilement beneath. Then He said to me: "Can you not see how they have pretentiously covered up their defilement and rottenness of character? 'How is the faithful city become an harlot?' My Father's house is made a house of merchandise, a place whence the divine PRESENCE and glory have DEPARTED. For this cause there is weakness, and strength is lacking.
Unless the church, which is now being leavened with her own backsliding, shall repent and be converted, she will eat of the fruit of her own doing, until she shall abhor herself. When she resists the evil and chooses the good, when she seeks God with all humillity and reaches her high calling in Christ, standing on the platform of eternal truth and by faith laying hold upon the attainments prepared for her, whe will be healed. She will appear in her God-given simplicity and purity, SEPARATE FROM EARTHLY ENTANGLEMENTS, showing that the truth has made her free indeed. THEN HER MEMBERS WILL INDEED BE THE CHOSEN OF GOD, HIS REPRESENTATIVES.
As far as I know, these conditions have not been met. Where does that leave us as individuals?
As far as the statements that you have provided regarding the Church being the object of His supreme regard. Would it not be true that He would be referring to the TRUE church, which KEEP, [not just preach] the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
See Rev. 19:10 ".....for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Our own leadership have participated in the distortion of the SOP until we [inside the denomination] do not have it any more. The ORIGINAL WRITINGS are resisted by the denomination.
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 04:28 AM
Midge I am so sorry that you have such feelings as you do. I do not agree with you about the Spirit of Prophecy not being penned by God's prophet, Ellen G. White. This is such a sad thing for you to say. We must keep eyes on Jesus.
Posted By: Midge Weir
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 05:58 AM
Avalee,
I am sorry that you got the impression that it is about my feelings.
I have studied these things for at least the last ten years and discussed it with many. I have done my best to give references for my conclusions.
I will be happy to consider inspired statements that would explain that I am wrong.
I believe very firmly that EGW penned the Spirit Of Prophecy.
Please do not report that I do not.
I also believe and have seen for myself that "men" have changed the inspired writings.
Posted By: Will
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 06:32 AM
Hi Midge,
I would like to recap your thoughts so I know where you are coming from:
1. You feel based on the evidence from what you have read that the writings of Sister White have been tampered with excliding the 1858 Great Controversy?
2. You feel that the SDA church has backslidden into apostasy and is being tainted (leavened bread) by people on the top?
God Bless,
Will
Posted By: Midge Weir
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 08:10 AM
Hi Will
Not quite.
1) I believe that EGW was given inspired messages from God for His people.
I believe that some of our earlier pioneers resisted these messages because some of them were very pointed and required humbling of hearts and changes made in their lifestyle.
I believe that, after James White died there were efforts to change and delay her writings. Many of them. [If not all] Not just a few. Then after she died the writings were tampered with, word and idea changes, additions and deletions happened.
There was even a committee appointed to "make corrections", in 1883. How can 'men' make corrections to God's express word to His 'messenger'?
I believe that certain ones of the faith knew that it was happening and that it was wrong. They wrote about it.
But prestige and power win with human beings.
2) In recent years, [within the recent 50 or so]
Certain individuals have found that there are many of the ORIGINAL BOOKS that still exist in their ORIGINAL form. [Before the tampering]
The 1858 Great Controversy is one of them.
But we have available to us, at least 30 of the testimonies to the church. The Redemption Series [8 of them] these are where The Desire Of Ages came from. and many more. I can provide a complete list if anyone wants it.
I have read all of these books and studied some in depth.
I have compared the ORIGINAL books with the ones that came later and seen the changes, additions and deletions. The 1858 Great Controversy is among the ORIGINAL books, that I believe is minus the changes and ideas of man.
3) I do see that the church has backslidden.
I do not blame it entirely on the leaders at the top. But they do carry a huge responsibility when they step up to lead, counsel and teach the people.
We are counseled as a people that we are to study, as laymen, 'to see if these things are so.' If we were doing our part as individuals and living in harmony with the word of God, we would be a people that would give an account to each other, including the leaders.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 08:56 AM
quote:
As far as the statements that you have provided regarding the Church being the object of His supreme regard. Would it not be true that He would be referring to the TRUE church, which KEEP, [not just preach] the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. See Rev. 19:10.
Midge, I agree with you that the statements regarding the supreme regard of Christ applies to the Remnant Church of God and prophecy. But please notice how Sister White describes this church.
TM 49
Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard. {TM 49.1}
What we are waiting for is the shaking. The shaking will weed out the unconverted, time serving members and leaders, and the church will be purified and ready for the latter rain.
LDE 179
The great issue so near at hand [enforcement of Sunday laws] will weed out those whom God has not appointed and He will have a pure, true, sanctified ministry prepared for the latter rain.--3SM 385 (1886). {LDE 179.2}
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 01:24 PM
Midge
You have said alot this night.
You pointed to the church as fallen and said that you therefore have separated yourself from it while refering to Pauls advice to be separate from false believers. In Pauls day it seems to me that the churches while a unity still stood and fell individually. Therefore I wonder if a more appropriate response or action would have been to find a group which you would considder not fallen within the denomination. (Perhaps that wouldnt be so great advice either though 'thinking about Jesus lesson on the plank and the speck'".
What I would want to know on the Achan example is, are we a people like Israel was a people? If yes, where on earth can you find a group where noone sins to join?
You wrote
quote:
God deals in truth and I cannot believe that He would ever condone keeping it silent. This concept is NOT scriptural. It is??
God may say, not yet.
Reading the whole initial quote again, it seems to me that it speaks of something very different than what you are trying hard to make it. Perhaps a more suitable following quote could have been choosen, namely quote:
1 Timothy 1
Warning Against False Teachers of the Law
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
I mean, it speaks about keeping focused, not majoring in minors. A person who teaches Jesus and Him born, lived, crucified, resurected and now working in Heaven would not be accused by this quote. I do not know if this last applies to you or not.
I do agree on you point in the last two EW quotes, to go to her published books for the prophecies and not to manmade compilations. Ironically one of those quotes isnt from a book ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
On division, while Jesus may or may not have intended to cause division at these times, the example with Paul is clearly an intended effort to divide the court.
On the next post, replying to Mike, you make a difference between the SDA and the church refered to in revelation. Could you explain further on this difference, who do you see the two as being today? Can this "Gods true church on earth" be difined within boundaries? There are different way in which this view can be held, which of them do you go with?
What you describe in your reply to Will is that this denomination from some of the first pioneers and onwards would have been the Church Hypocritical. A cowardly ingenuine and false movement. What you appear to be saying is that only a remnant within this church ever knew God. Is this what you are saying?
I would finaly like to point out to you that salvation is not found in doing the right things (for instance the parable on the sheep and the goats) or knowing the right things (the pharises and lawyers of Jesus day knew the writings backwards and forwards). While these things are important, when left to their own they are inadequate to bring life. Only knowing God, our Creator will lead to life eternal.
/Thomas
Posted By: Avalee
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 04:09 PM
Midge again I will say I am sorry you feel the way you do. I will leave it up to the others to dialoge with you. I once knew a man who was teacing the people at a former church I belonged to that we would marry and have children on the new earth. When I gave the people the truth from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy this man told the people that others had changed what the Spirit of Prophecy said. I called the EGW Estate and told them what this man said and they sent me a copy of the original documents. Which by the way made a stronger point against what he was trying to teach as not all of the document was used in the books we have. It is a very sad thing when people try to do this to God's words to us.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/28/04 06:58 PM
Daryl, the following post may have been overlooked by you. I would still appreciate your response. Thanx.
quote:
Jesus did not work to correct preconceived misconceptions. "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." John 16:12. Living under Roman rule was a compromise. The Protestant Reformation was a compromise. That is, God was leading men and women throughout the Reformation even though their knowledge of the truth was incomplete. The Great Disappointment was a compromise. Health reform was a compromise until 1863. In all these cases God overlooked the fact that their knowledge of the truth was incomplete and incorrect.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/29/04 05:52 AM
quote:
Jesus did not work to correct preconceived misconceptions.
I can't agree with that. He came to give us God's truth, and truth always dispels misconceptions.
It would be better stated, "Jesus did not work to correct *all* preconceived misconceptions." He corrected what He could while He was here, but He also knew that some preconceived misconceptions were so deeply ingrained that it would take time to overcome them. That would be left to the Holy Spirit to accomplish. (Peter's experience in Acts 10 is a good example of that.)
Posted By: John H.
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/29/04 06:13 AM
Midge, I think the idea that men have changed the SOP, that we can't trust large portions of it, is the same as saying God can't protect His messages to mankind. Which, to me, belies a lack of faith in His abilities. The "changes" you talk about were authorized and overseen by Mrs. White herself, and that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt. I say "reasonable" instead of "all" because God doesn't remove all occasion for doubt. Those who want to doubt, will.
As for the church being fallen or not, here are some additional quotes from her pen:
"The Lord has sent messages of warning and entreaty, messages of reproof and rebuke, and they have not been in vain. But we have never had a message that the Lord would disorganize the church. We have never had the prophecy concerning Babylon applied to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, or been informed that the 'loud cry' consisted in calling God's people to come out of her; for this is not God's plan concerning Israel."
{RH 10-03-93 para. 12}
"Again, I say the Lord hath not spoken by any messenger who calls the only church in the world that keeps the commandments of God, Babylon. True, there is chaff with the wheat; but first gather the chaff and bind it into bundles to burn it, but gather the wheat into the garner. I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized, or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this. There is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. Those who shall heed this false message, and try to leaven others will be deceived, and prepared to receive advance delusions, and they will come to naught."
{1MR 303.01} (1893)
"When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track."
{3SM 18.4} (1893)
The loud cry of Revelation 18 calls on us to come out of Babylon, but Babylon does not include the SDA Church. Yes, there are apostates and worldlings in the church, but prophecy has declared that this is to be so! What we need to do is fight back, to take our church back from these people, not give up and leave altogether. I already left one time 20+ years ago; by the grace of God it won't happen again.
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 11/30/04 07:45 AM
quote:
It would be better stated, "Jesus did not work to correct *all* preconceived misconceptions."
Yes, that's what I meant. Thanx for the clarification. The point I was attempting to make is that God sometimes compromises in order to maintain enough harmony to gradually lead us into all truth - without blowing us away with too much information too soon.
Posted By: John H.
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 12/03/04 08:36 PM
Yeah, it would be 'cruel and unusual' to shine a 3000-watt light into the eyes of someone who's lived in a dark basement for years, wouldn't it. :-)
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 12/03/04 11:54 PM
Mike,
Yes, God allowed them to have a human king. That is clearly stated in the Bible as quoted below: quote:
1 Samuel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
Yes, the above verses state very clearly that God permitted them to have a king like the other nations, but He also warned them of the consequences of such a request even to the time when they said that they have no king but Ceasar.
And yes, God allowed them to have more than one wife. The earliest Bible verse is found in Genesis 4:19, quoted below:
quote:
Genesis 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
I don't see, however, where God gave permission to have more than one wife as He later on permitted them to have a king like the other nations. For some reason though God allowed it in the same way He allowed Sunday worship to replace Sabbath worship.
Paul warned the church of false doctrine creeping in, however, God allowed false doctrine to creep into the church. I don't think this would be compromising truth, but rather it would be allowing error, false doctrine, to creep into the church.
Error only creeps in though when we compromise the truth. It is we, who compromise the truth, not God.
Does that then mean that we can still compromise the truth today?
Also, what kind of harmony did it bring?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 12/04/04 12:11 AM
Daryl,
Is your question wether we do compromise truth or wether we can safely compromise truth from Gods perspective?
It would be yes and no I think.
/Thomas
Posted By: Daryl
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 12/04/04 12:14 AM
Thomas,
I also edited another question in my last post, namely what kind of harmony did compromise really bring?
Posted By: vastergotland
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 12/04/04 01:48 AM
An interesting question you ask there. What harmony has compromise brought. Compromise doesnt bring that much harmony between the compromiser and other persons who may stay with truth. In the early history when the missionaries started to compromise the requirements for becoming a christian such as accutally knowing what one was doing, it lead to a situation where almost everyone still alive believed in the same compromises which lead to some kind of harmony. In all the history of christianity isnt allways all that harmonious, then again, harmonious times seldom make it into the history books. Good question though.
/Thomas
Posted By: Mountain Man
Re: Avoid Contention Promote Harmony - 12/04/04 05:38 AM
Acts
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Revelation
2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
2:25 But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.
God works with us where we are, laying only those burdens we can bear, and no more. This is a type of compromise, that is, tolerating error for the sake of harmony.