Our Guardian Angels?

Posted By: Daryl

Our Guardian Angels? - 01/09/13 06:55 PM

Do our guardian angels always accompany and protect us, regardless of where we go?
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/09/13 11:59 PM

A thorough study of this question would be very helpful. Some of our correspondence schools in Europe have issued lessons on the topic.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/10/13 12:02 AM

It seems quite clear that evil angels are doing the same thing, and I have been wondering if anything could prevent them from helping people in certain situations, since the Bible tells us that even the devil will appear as an angel of light.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/13/13 09:35 PM

Is there a link to any of those lessons?
Originally Posted By: Johann
A thorough study of this question would be very helpful. Some of our correspondence schools in Europe have issued lessons on the topic.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/15/13 06:18 PM

My search got me to this forum:

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/angels.htm

It is not by SDA, and therefore I'd not recommend it to just anyone for study, but it gives many helpful ideas.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/18/13 03:39 AM

Here is what EGW wrote about guardian angels:
Quote:
Chap. 306 - We shall Meet Our Guardian Angels

He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. Psalm 91:11. {Mar 314.1}


Not until the providences of God are seen in the light of eternity shall we understand what we owe to the care and interposition of His angels. Celestial beings have taken an active part in the affairs of men. They have appeared in garments that shone as the lightning; they have come as men, in the garb of wayfarers. They have accepted the hospitalities of human homes; they acted as guides to benighted travelers. They have thwarted the spoiler's purpose and turned aside the stroke of the destroyer. {Mar 314.2}

Though the rulers of this world know it not, yet often in their councils angels have been spokesmen. Human eyes have looked upon them. Human ears have listened to their appeals. In the council hall and the court of justice, heavenly messengers have pleaded the cause of the persecuted and oppressed. They have defeated purposes and arrested evils that would have brought wrong and suffering to God's children. To the students in the heavenly school, all this will be unfolded. {Mar 314.3}

Every redeemed one will understand the ministry of angels in his own life. The angel who was his guardian from his earliest moment; the angel who watched his steps, and covered his head in the day of peril; the angel who was with him in the valley of the shadow of death, who marked his resting place, who was the first to greet him in the resurrection morning--what will it be to hold converse with him, and to learn the history of divine interposition in the individual life, of heavenly co-operation in every work for humanity! {Mar 314.4}

With the word of God in his hands, every human being, wherever his lot in life may be cast, may have such companionship as he shall choose. In its pages he may hold converse with the noblest and best of the human race, and may listen to the voice of the Eternal as He speaks with men. As he studies and meditates upon the themes into which "the angels desire to look" (1 Peter 1:12), he may have their companionship. {Mar 314.5}
Posted By: kland

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/18/13 07:15 PM

If there is a place where angels and God won't go, then Jonah would have wished he knew about it.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/18/13 07:26 PM

Shouldn't that be a great comfort?
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/18/13 08:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Here is what EGW wrote about guardian angels:

Though the rulers of this world know it not, yet often in their councils angels have been spokesmen. Human eyes have looked upon them. Human ears have listened to their appeals. In the council hall and the court of justice, heavenly messengers have pleaded the cause of the persecuted and oppressed. They have defeated purposes and arrested evils that would have brought wrong and suffering to God's children. To the students in the heavenly school, all this will be unfolded. {Mar 314.3}


I hate to be such a skeptic, but is there any actual evidence of the above happening? How would we know if this is true or not? Perhaps someone can refer me to a case where we can say "That was an angel speaking." (This should not be too hard, since, as EGW says, this happens "often.")

Typically, in "the council hall and the court of justice", the speakers and actors are known to us. Council for the accused, political/environmental/"religious" activists, neighbors, workers, friends, (enemies), etc. We know these people. We know their historys, their wives/husbands, they have kids at the local school, they went to Harvard or Yale or CaUC, this is their second wife/husband/"significant other"/you get the point. Which ones of these are the angels?

I do not buy into the myth that angels live among us, that they are our neighbors, the kid pumping gas or flipping your burger, or the wizened old granny at church. If you propose that as a solution I would have to ask for "actual evidence" of THAT, and we would be back to where we started.

I do believe that angels sometimes intervene in human affairs. However, this does not equate to "they live among us." Those who believe that have been watching too much "Highlander" or "Twilight". (IMNSHO)

And I do not accept it as true just because Ellen White said it. (Sorry, Mountain Man ..er..certain posters on this forum)

So that's my rant for the day. The snare is set, and in a moment I shall spring it.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/18/13 11:12 PM

Hebrews 11:1

King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/18/13 11:59 PM

That covers a lot of ground... Can you be more specific?
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/19/13 04:32 AM

So let me understand...We are expected to believe the most random stuff based on the absolutely solid and irrefutable evidence of...

...wait for it...

the fact that we can't prove it at all!
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/19/13 04:52 AM

Here is another quote from the writings of EGW:
Quote:
In all ages, God has wrought through holy angels for the succor and deliverance of his people. Celestial beings have taken an active part in the affairs of men. They have appeared clothed in garments that shone as the lightning; they have come as men, in the garb of wayfarers. Angels have appeared in human form to men of God. They have rested, as if weary, under the oaks at noon. They have accepted the hospitalities of human homes. They have acted as guides to benighted travelers. They have, with their own hands, kindled the fires of the altar. They have opened prison doors, and set free the servants of the Lord. Clothed with the panoply of Heaven, they came to roll away the stone from the Saviour's tomb. {GC88 631.2}

In the form of men, angels are often in the assemblies of the righteous, and they visit the assemblies of the wicked, as they went to Sodom, to make a record of their deeds, to determine whether they have passed the boundary of God's forbearance. The Lord delights in mercy; and for the sake of a few who really serve him, he restrains calamities, and prolongs the tranquillity of multitudes. Little do sinners against God realize that they are indebted for their own lives to the faithful few whom they delight to ridicule and oppress. {GC88 631.3}

Though the rulers of this world know it not, yet often in their councils angels have been spokesmen. Human eyes have looked upon them; human ears have listened to their appeals; human lips have opposed their suggestions and ridiculed their counsels; human hands have met them with insult and abuse. In the council hall and the court of justice, these heavenly messengers have shown an intimate acquaintance with human history; they have proved themselves better able to plead the cause of the oppressed than were their ablest and most eloquent defenders. They have defeated purposes and arrested evils that would have greatly retarded the work of God, and would have caused great suffering to his people. In the hour of peril and distress, “the angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.” [Psalm 34:7.] {GC88 632.1}

Angels functioning as spokesmen can be easily accomplished by God, if and when He so desires to use His angels in such a manner, therefore, I wouldn't limit God in His ability to accomplish this.

If the Bible had stated that angels were and can be used as His spokesmen in the manner described by EGW, would you have accepted that?
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/19/13 07:05 AM

Um...didn't you just re-post the same quote? dunno

Just to be clear, I did not say that God could not do this. I merely asked for someone to note an event when angels had been used.

In virtually every every council room and court house where we have record of human discourse we know the people involved. In which discussion do we look at the tapes and say "Who's that guy? Where'd he come from?" "Gee, dunno. Must be an angel."

God can inspire people to speak his word...True!
God can work through human agencies.......True!
God sends people to influence judges, politicians etc,...True!
God sends angels to speak in human courts.........Um..False?

So before we proceed let's make certain that we understand the difficulty. It's not that God can't, or that EGW said it instead of the Bible, The question is When has this happened?
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/19/13 02:49 PM

When has this happened?

As angels wouldn't obviously manifest themselves as angels in such situations, we will not find any record of an angel doing that, however, if EGW said it happened, or is happening, then God can take care of how it can happen in those circumstances.

It's probably a question that we will need to ask Him directly sometime after the 2nd Coming.

By the way, my 2nd quote wasn't exactly the same as the 1st one.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/19/13 07:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
When has this happened?

As angels wouldn't obviously manifest themselves as angels in such situations, we will not find any record of an angel doing that,


I refer you to my previous post, ie: we are to believe based on absolutely no evidence.


Originally Posted By: Daryl
however, if EGW said it happened, or is happening, then God can take care of how it can happen in those circumstances.


I'm sorry. I refuse to give EGW that much divinity.

Originally Posted By: Daryl
By the way, my 2nd quote wasn't exactly the same as the 1st one.


Neither was it substantially different.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/20/13 01:06 AM

I don't give EGW any divinity in the same manner that I don't give any of the various Bible writers any divinity, however, I believe that EGW was inspired by God to write what she wrote in a similar manner that I believe all the various Bible writers were also inspired by God to write what they wrote.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/20/13 02:10 AM

Many years ago I read a couple of books published by our publishing houses which contained many stories of angels appearing like human beings helping people in desperate situations.

If you search you will find some stories like that in the Bible too.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/20/13 03:00 AM

Continuing on from my previous post here, don't you think that God could give an angel all the necessary credentials needed today, if called upon to present those credentials, in order for that angel to speak before the various councils of men?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/20/13 10:56 PM

First, the word "often" is very relative; second, the passage is speaking of special occasions, when the people of God was being "persecuted and oppressed," or when decisions would have "greatly retarded the work of God" or brought "great suffering" upon His people. It obviously is not saying that the direct intervention of angels is occurring today in legislative decisions of western nations.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/21/13 01:14 AM

Hello Rosangela, nice to see you on the forum again. How are things in Brazil?

By the way, you have done an excellent job of putting a spin on the quote in question, which tells me that you don't really believe it, either. Certainly not the way it's written. It needs the "correct understanding.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/21/13 02:52 AM

I can agree with this, but not to the extent that it can't happen, if necessary.
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
First, the word "often" is very relative; second, the passage is speaking of special occasions, when the people of God was being "persecuted and oppressed," or when decisions would have "greatly retarded the work of God" or brought "great suffering" upon His people. It obviously is not saying that the direct intervention of angels is occurring today in legislative decisions of western nations.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/23/13 12:18 AM

Hi JAK, things are fine here. I do believe the quote, but we must distinguish between what is written in the quote and what is not written there.
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/23/13 12:24 AM

Quote:
I can agree with this, but not to the extent that it can't happen, if necessary.

I think it can happen if necessary, but I believe in this case an unknown person would be allowed to speak.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/23/13 07:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Daryl
Continuing on from my previous post here, don't you think that God could give an angel all the necessary credentials needed today, if called upon to present those credentials, in order for that angel to speak before the various councils of men?


Like a sleeper agent? In other words, God gives the angel a cover story. The angel isn't really who he says he is. Kind of a lie, isn't it?

I do think that angels are at times present on earth, manifesting themselves as humans, as Johann has pointed out. I think they may be present in such things as protest rallies (if the cause relates to God's purposes) or in townhall type meetings, where the public speaks to an issue, or public hearings. These are all places where "anybody" can speak.

But I don't think they are present in the governments of nations, or that "often in their councils angels have been spokesmen". The men in these councils are known to each other. They hold positions in the government. They are the Minister of Defence, or the Minister of Trade, or some such thing.

So, I am not convinced of the truth of this statement ({Mar 314.3} ); not without some sort of evidence to support it.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/23/13 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Hi JAK, things are fine here. I do believe the quote, but we must distinguish between what is written in the quote and what is not written there.


Please expand on your answer. The quote seems to be clear enough:
Quote:
"Though the rulers of this world know it not, yet often in their councils angels have been spokesmen. Human eyes have looked upon them. Human ears have listened to their appeals. In the council hall and the court of justice, heavenly messengers have pleaded the cause of the persecuted and oppressed.


Also, if "often" is relative, please explain in what way.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
It obviously is not saying that the direct intervention of angels is occurring today in legislative decisions of western nations.


This seems to me to be saying that it is happening in our governments, today. So if not our governments, today, then who's governments, when?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/24/13 09:05 PM

JAK, as I see it, in that statement she is looking at History as a whole, not speaking specifically about a moment in time (in that case, modern times). She is clearly speaking about moments in history when the people of God was persecuted and the governments and law courts took decisions related to that. "Often" is relative in that it may mean dozens of times, hundreds of times, and so on, depending on the total number of times something happens. How many times in history did governments and law courts took decisions which involved the persecution of the people of God?
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/24/13 11:27 PM

In some cases, as I have understood the situation, Christian people may be standing before a judge, an assembly, or in any special circumstances, when they have been quite desperate, not knowing how to present the truth in the best light possible. They may have sighed a prayer. Then, without knowing what was going on, they saw themselves saying or performing something that was beyond their knowledge or experience. To them it was something they could not understand. It looked like they were doing it, and yet it was some other agent in them doing it.

This is how I have understood some of the stories I have read in the past where the conclusion drawn is that it was an unseen angel working through that person.

This is how I understood many of those experiences ever since my childhood, and I have found no reason to change that picture now. Because I have seen divine miracles.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/25/13 12:07 AM

Johann, that is something that I can totally agree with.
Posted By: kland

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/25/13 02:21 AM

Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Continuing on from my previous post here, don't you think that God could give an angel all the necessary credentials needed today, if called upon to present those credentials, in order for that angel to speak before the various councils of men?


Like a sleeper agent? In other words, God gives the angel a cover story. The angel isn't really who he says he is. Kind of a lie, isn't it?

I do think that angels are at times present on earth, manifesting themselves as humans, as Johann has pointed out.
But if they manifest themselves as humans, isn't that a lie as you say?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/25/13 02:34 AM

Quote:
In some cases, as I have understood the situation, Christian people may be standing before a judge, an assembly, or in any special circumstances, when they have been quite desperate, not knowing how to present the truth in the best light possible. They may have sighed a prayer. Then, without knowing what was going on, they saw themselves saying or performing something that was beyond their knowledge or experience. To them it was something they could not understand. It looked like they were doing it, and yet it was some other agent in them doing it.

This is how I have understood some of the stories I have read in the past where the conclusion drawn is that it was an unseen angel working through that person.

This is how I understood many of those experiences ever since my childhood, and I have found no reason to change that picture now. Because I have seen divine miracles.

I also totally agree with this, although EGW doesn't seem to be speaking of this kind of experience in that quote.
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/25/13 02:56 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Continuing on from my previous post here, don't you think that God could give an angel all the necessary credentials needed today, if called upon to present those credentials, in order for that angel to speak before the various councils of men?


Like a sleeper agent? In other words, God gives the angel a cover story. The angel isn't really who he says he is. Kind of a lie, isn't it?

I do think that angels are at times present on earth, manifesting themselves as humans, as Johann has pointed out.
But if they manifest themselves as humans, isn't that a lie as you say?

I was thinking the same thing.
Posted By: JAK

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/25/13 03:18 AM

True, "If" the angel in question appeared as a specific person, or had a specific identity.

In other words, if an angel appeared in "their councils", he/she/?? would have to be a specific person, with some kind of credentials, else why would the "rulers of this world" allow them in or listen to them? Why would a Christian on defense allow a random stranger to testify for them? (Ie: how would they know about this guy to get him/her/?? to testify?) The prosecuting attorney would want to know who this witness is, ergo some sort of "cover story". This could be construed as a falsehood.

On the other hand, if some young christian girl is driving alone along a remote and desolate stretch of highway and has a flat tire and a car full of thugs pulls up behind her with malice aforethought, and said thugs surround the car, and the young christian girl prays for protection, and the thugs look into the car window and see two big Marines sitting in the back seat and promptly leave, then this could only be viewed as God protecting his children. The angels where not attempting to pass themselves off as any particular person, just a couple Marines (whom every sane person has a justifiably healthy respect for.) Ie: Not a lie.

But that was a good question.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/25/13 01:27 PM

Divinity is never a falsehood to the believer.

To the unbeliever the creation story, as well as any manifestation of divinity, is a falsehood.

Angels are the heavenly servants of divinity who do their service here on earth. Since we do not comprehend divinity, and divinity is not limited to human achievements, much of what they do cannot be explained and may seem to us as a lie, if we take pleasure in entertaining such thoughts.

May God help us to have our understanding more open to divine interventions in our lives, that the world may see that we are His children.

In my youth I met a number of people who had known Ellen White as a personal friend, and some even stayed with her in her home. Now all of those people have passed away. Does that make it more difficult for us to realize how great things God is able to do, also through His human humble servants? How about when they work together with angels?
Posted By: Rosangela

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 01/30/13 10:12 PM

Quote:
Here is what EGW wrote about guardian angels

This is another quote:

A guardian angel is appointed to every follower of Christ. These heavenly watchers shield the righteous from the power of the wicked one. This Satan himself recognized when he said: "Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not Thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?" Job 1:9, 10. The agency by which God protects His people is presented in the words of the psalmist: "The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear Him, and delivereth them." Psalm 34:7. Said the Saviour, speaking of those that believe in Him: "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of My Father." Matthew 18:10. The angels appointed to minister to the children of God have at all times access to His presence. Thus God's people, exposed to the deceptive power and unsleeping malice of the prince of darkness, and in conflict with all the forces of evil, are assured of the unceasing guardianship of heavenly angels. Nor is such assurance given without need. If God has granted to His children promise of grace and protection, it is because there are mighty agencies of evil to be met--agencies numerous, determined, and untiring, of whose malignity and power none can safely be ignorant or unheeding. {GC 512, 513}
Posted By: Daryl

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 02/06/13 05:20 AM

So only the followers of Christ have their own respective guardian angels?

Until I read the EGW quote provided by Rosangela, I thought that everybody had a guardian angel.

I assume everybody has their own recording angel.
Posted By: Johann

Re: Our Guardian Angels? - 02/06/13 10:19 AM

Scripture teaches us that Satan is the ruler of this world, but that does not prevent the Holy Spirit from influencing people - and the Holy Spirit working through those who have accepted Christ - appealing to people that they open a living connection with their Creator. Then He will provide them with a guardian angel.

I have a notion some people we do not consider Christian at all might have this protection.

Originally Posted By: Daryl
So only the followers of Christ have their own respective guardian angels?

Until I read the EGW quote provided by Rosangela, I thought that everybody had a guardian angel.

I assume everybody has their own recording angel.
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