Is Ben Carson Right?

Posted By: The Wanderer

Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/26/17 12:33 AM

I hope this is the right forum section to post this in? I did my best guess. Please move if it actually is in the wrong section. smile

It appears that Dr Ben Carson is placing the blame for "being poor" on the poor.
Quote:
On Wednesday night, Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson — whose budget to help low-income households would be cut by more than $6 billion next year — added his own thoughts. He said in a radio interview that "poverty to a large extent is also a state of mind."

Carson — who himself grew up in poverty to become a widely acclaimed neurosurgeon — said people with the "right mind set" can have everything taken away from them, and they'll pull themselves up. He believes the converse is true as well. "You take somebody with the wrong mind-set, you can give them everything in the world (and) they'll work their way right back down to the bottom," Carson said.
Being Poor Is A State Of Mind??

To what degree is Carson right? To what degree is Carson wrong? Is there some happy "middle road" here? Would the Bible support Carson's statement on "being poor?"
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/26/17 12:25 PM

That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/26/17 04:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle
That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.
So you are disagreeing with Carson and saying that "poverty" is not a state of mind?

Myself, I certainly do not agree with him. he seems really out of touch on the issue.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/26/17 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle
That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
So you are disagreeing with Carson and saying that "poverty" is not a state of mind?

Correct. I disagree with Carson... He's basically saying that it's the people fault if we are poor....because we didn't make the right decision like he experienced. Carson believes anyone can get out of poverty like he did. He came from a poor family and "choose" his way to being a Neuro Surgeon.

This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

I agree with the Wanderer that he's not balance nor realistic in his outlook because he is not embracing the whole truth about this. The first one, by which is inexcusable and shameful....since he's in a leadership position in the US Government in helping the poor --- he should have gotten the a basic knowledge on how our economic system really works. From his respond....he doesn't even have that preliminary understanding. And he's in that seat of responsibility to help the poor???? He needs our prayers!

The other biggest truth Carson statement ignores is that the Lord Sovereignty is above man's daily choices. (Rom 9)

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Myself, I certainly do not agree with him. he seems really out of touch on the issue.
Ok??? you didn't explain to us why you do not agree with Carson. How is he out of touch on this issue?
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/26/17 11:15 PM

It might take me a day or so to get back to this topic. I will look forward to it.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/27/17 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/27/17 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?

No I said that Carson path was that. Not many experienced "getting out of poverty" like Carson have. Actually, most did not.

Poverty is increasing in all nations and will increase further as the current economic system further crashes and if the DEBT can get's kick further down the road without being address. Reality is ... all Western countries are in DEBT above their eye balls no matter if some individuals inside the country stricked it rich and has a successful story like Carson.

My point is Carson view is very narrow and not balance and I've listed 3 reasons in the above 2 posts up to now why I think Carson view is not balance and not realistic.

But you kland, from what I recall from other discussion....you probably agree with Carson. That's ok. We don't need to agree on every thing.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/27/17 03:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?

No I said that Carson path was that. Not many experienced "getting out of poverty" like Carson have. Actually, most did not.

Poverty is increasing in all nations and will increase further as the current economic system further crashes and if the DEBT can get's kick further down the road without being address. Reality is ... all Western countries are in DEBT above their eye balls no matter if some individuals inside the country stricked it rich and has a successful story like Carson.

My point is Carson view is very narrow and not balance and
I agree; and I think the multi-million dollar mansion he has recently purchased has softened him up the wrong way. He has obviously lost touch with the reality of poverty. And why does he have to call them "poor people?" Why not just say "low income" people or some such thing that does not denigrate.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/27/17 04:40 AM

There is no reason to use the freedom of speech on a Christian forum to simply bash someone who is not here to defend himself. His words are sufficiently general and open to interpretation that you cannot know of a certainty what he meant with them. However, I have a mind to be supportive of him for multiple reasons.

1) My grandfather, in the wisdom of his later years, used to say "poor people have poor ways." I didn't immediately understand this. Life experience has taught me how wise he was.

2) Oprah Winfrey had a case some years ago to put the theory to the test. I do not remember all of the specifics, particularly the monetary amounts, so forgive me if I turn out the wrong figures--but the story itself should still have merit. She, being black herself, wondered at the poverty of most black people, and wanted to help them somehow. She had no intention of conducting a social experiment--she simply wanted to make a difference. In any case, she thought they were poor simply because they had insufficient funds to make a good start. So she found a family upon whom she chose to exercise her philanthropy, and gave them well over $100,000--maybe half a million (but, again, I don't remember the figure clearly). It was far more money than the family had ever had access to before, in any case. If I recall, Oprah was chagrined to find that in a short time (under two years?), that family was dirt poor again.

3) I have personally witnessed people on food coupons buying microwave dinners and snack foods. It goes without saying that such foods are neither the most healthful, nor the most economical. Frugality seems foreign to them. You will notice that virtually all such "poor" people have a television and some satellite or cable subscription. Many have a nice car and/or a home upon which they must make monthly payments. Credit cards get used to buy things they think they must have right now, with the interest required later keeping them in their state of poverty.

4) Consider the lottery winners. How many are still wealthy ten years later? On the other hand, some millionaires have lost everything and gained it all back afterward. "Poor people have poor ways."

Dr. Carson was once poor. He likely has friends and family among the poor. He has had plenty of time to consider their condition. Middle class folk passing judgment on him without any consideration for his reasons for saying what he did does nothing to cast mud on him. The mud sticks to the hands of those who have attempted to sling it.

The Bible says many things about the poor. Among them are the following:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it: (Deuteronomy 15:4, KJV)

"However, there will be no poor among you, since the LORD will surely bless you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess, (Deuteronomy 15:4, NASB)

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. (1 Samuel 2:8, KJV)

For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper. (Psalms 72:12, KJV)


He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy. (Psalms 72:13, KJV)

Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock. (Psalms 107:41, KJV)

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill; (Psalms 113:7, KJV)

I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. (Psalms 132:15, KJV)

I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and the right of the poor. (Psalms 140:12, KJV)

...so much to Elle's thought that God makes the poor poor. God wants to bless, not impoverish. Of course, God does say this too:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. (1 Samuel 2:7, KJV)


I would take that in about the same context as Isaiah 45:7 where God takes responsibility for light and darkness, good and evil, because the Bible is clear that the poor have some responsibility for their own condition.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich. (Proverbs 10:4, KJV)

There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty. (Proverbs 11:24, KJV)

The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke. (Proverbs 13:8, KJV)

Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured. (Proverbs 13:18, KJV)

Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread. (Proverbs 20:13, KJV)

He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich. (Proverbs 21:17, KJV)

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. (Proverbs 22:7, KJV)

For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags. (Proverbs 23:21, KJV)

He that tilleth his land shall have plenty of bread: but he that followeth after vain persons shall have poverty enough. (Proverbs 28:19, KJV)

He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him. (Proverbs 28:22, KJV)

He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse. (Proverbs 28:27, KJV)

The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it. (Proverbs 29:7, KJV)

A poor man that oppresseth the poor is like a sweeping rain which leaveth no food. (Proverbs 28:3, KJV)


From these texts, we can get a summary of the Biblical causes of poverty as follows:

  • Dealing with a slack hand (careless/slow worker)
  • Withholding unnecessarily
  • Not heeding rebuke
  • Refusing instruction
  • Loving sleep
  • Loving pleasure
  • Being a drunkard
  • Being a glutton
  • Hasting to be rich
  • Hiding one's eyes from the needs of the poor


All of the above could easily be classed as part of the state of mind or character of the person. In other words, Carson is right on the money. Poverty IS related to one's own choices and mindset. Are there exceptions? Indubitably. For example, I am poor by American standards. I am not poor because of lack of work, nor for loving sleep. This week I literally worked myself sick, and am still fighting the fever as I rest this Sabbath. I am poor simply because of my sacrificial service as a missionary to people who have far less than I do.

Enough said.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/27/17 08:29 AM

Green; your use of "freedom of speech" in the above post, is quite out of context. Mister Carson has gone on public record as saying what was posted above; and no matter what you say, it raises questions. I could have easily quoted all the same stuff to you. You have not really proved anything here.
Posted By: Charity

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/27/17 10:34 PM

Carson's statement is general and like Green says can be taken differently. It does appear to have an element of insensitivity to it but I agree with Green that we should give our brother the benefit of the doubt and put the best construction on it. In doing that we'll be promoting what I think is motivating Carson and is key to improving the lot of the poor - a positive mind set and a determination to rise above apparently insurmountable obstacles and to be grateful regardless of our lot in life.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 04:43 PM

Here's Green's Biblical summary of the poor that is severely cherry-picked one-sided towards his personal opinion; for he is incapable (due to scales of blindness) to bring out the whole truth of God expression on this subject in scripture.

Originally Posted By: Green

Dealing with a slack hand (careless/slow worker)
Withholding unnecessarily
Not heeding rebuke
Refusing instruction
Loving sleep
Loving pleasure
Being a drunkard
Being a glutton
Hasting to be rich
Hiding one's eyes from the needs of the poor

The problem with this type of blinded bias & narrow view, is it is not realistic and balance. People don't buy into that anymore. Notice on his 10 listed elements, that the first 9, the fault & responsibility is put on the poor.

What I find quite interesting and probably God's touch in this is what Green's last & 10th element of his list says. I would like to have the Biblical source of this. The 10th element on Green's list is not towards the poor; but those outside of poverty (or those who judges the poor)....these people are Hiding one's eyes from the needs of the poor. This can be taken in many ways, but the way I read it... that most people "hide their eyes"(are blinded) to the reality of the problem of the poor.

Here's a partial list (in addition to Green's 10[really 2] items list) what I recall scripture saying on the subject of the poor :

1-the Spiritual leaders ... oppressed, stole, fleeced, the people (thus became poor).
2-the Spiritual leaders ... didn't teach the truth to the people-poor...so they are left in ignorance of God's laws that led to problems and poverty.
3-the Spiritual leaders .... didn't give the poor justice in their courts...basically the poor doesn't have a voice.
4-the Spiritual leaders .... didn't feed or protect the needy like the laws commanded them to do. God gave many laws to protect the poor so there would always be plenty to eat in the land for the poor so to prevent them from losing every thing when something happens -- like war, the death of the sons or husband, famine in the land, etc.... So if these laws are not followed by the leaders...well this will result in more poor in the land.
5-Nations ruled by Pagan Barbaric Kings .... oppresses the people...thus increased the poor population in their land.
6-God's Judgment upon a nation whether Gentile or the Israelites that comes on them.... destroys possession, buildings, homes, orchards, fields, death of men, etc.... that produces more poors.
7-A natural disaster that destroys possession like crops, housing, kills people, ....produces more poors.

Green why didn't you bring these elements that is also found all over in scriptures? That would of been a more honest objectional and credible stand. I do believe that the New-Creation Man that is in you will succeed. Jesus will not fail you or anyone in this forum. Blindness...is blindness. I had many scales of blindness fall from my eyes just since 2017 began. I couldn't believe it how blinded I was....all those years. God never cease to impress me. We cannot heal blindness from ourself. Scripture says that it is God that makes the blind, and He's the only one that can heal them too. When the soon rain will come, I do believe many things will change and many blindness scales from our eyes will be removed. We have many....so be ready. We do and will always resist the processs...but the scales will fall anyway and it will be liberating when it happens. That's when we enter more into the true rest and joy of God.

I also do agree with the Wanderer comment about Green's post :
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Green; your use of "freedom of speech" in the above post, is quite out of context. Mister Carson has gone on public record as saying what was posted above; and no matter what you say, it raises questions. I could have easily quoted all the same stuff to you. You have not really proved anything here.


Carson made a public statement and is now in a leadership role to serve "the poor people" in the nation of the USA. no small thing...He needs to be constructively criticized by the people that he represents if he get's offline. This is totally different if we talk about John Smith, that serve no public function, and is not a member of this forum that cannot defend himself.

However, regarding Mark's comment, I do agree on what is bolded and underlined below.
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Carson's statement is general and like Green says can be taken differently. It does appear to have an element of insensitivity to it but I agree with Green that we should give our brother the benefit of the doubt and put the best construction on it. In doing that we'll be promoting what I think is motivating Carson and is key to improving the lot of the poor - a positive mind set and a determination to rise above apparently insurmountable obstacles and to be grateful regardless of our lot in life.

Yes, I do agree with that. I do think Carson is sincere in what he says. All of us have our own "blind spots" and I believe Carson's personal experience and having the typical SDA Arminian point of view and trying to accomplish Trump's goal that wants to bring back jobs (that the former governments gave our jobs to off-shore countries) in the USA ... has cataract-ed his eyes on this issue.

I do want Carson to be successful and that's why I believe he needs all of our prayers so that he can come to the truth and have a very balance & knowledgeable outlook and thus be very effective in his calling.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 06:33 PM

Elle,

As I understood things, the opening post in this topic did not address itself to Carson's views about how to treat the poor, but rather his views about why they are poor. I am certain no one posting here, nor Dr. Carson himself, would say poor people should be treated unfairly (see James chapter 2), defrauded of just wages (see James chapter 5), or thought to be less in value to those more fortunate (see Matthew 5; consider the "Widow's Mite").

If you wish to turn from Dr. Carson's views to my own, perhaps a new topic is in order--but I will spare you the trouble: I believe poor people should be treated just as considerately as anyone else, and, yes, the Bible teaches this.

Regarding the text you think addresses the rich in place of the poor, perhaps you haven't considered the full evidence.

Originally Posted By: Elle
What I find quite interesting and probably God's touch in this is what Green's last & 10th element of his list. I would like to read the Biblical source of this. The 10th element on Green's list is not towards the poor; but those outside of poverty....these people are Hiding one's eyes from the needs of the poor. This can be taken in many ways, but the way I read it is what Green and Carson are doing.... they are hiding their eyes to the reality of the problem of the poor.


Firstly, you do not know what you are saying. You began by chiming into this discussion with accusations toward Dr. Ben Carson, a very distinguished and respectable person whom you should have been more hesitant to criticize. Now you have turned your accusative sword upon me for having defended him? You have made false accusations. May God forgive you, for you have certainly done so in ignorance. You do not know me. You do not know how this very month, I put nearly half of my meager stipend into the medical care of a poor widow who lives nearby. You do not know how many months I have gone without pay to rescue another poor widow in my community from poverty so that she could provide for her three young children. You do not know how many times I have given food to the beggars who came to me. You do not know how my heart yearns for the poor, and how often I am pained to be unable to help them more. But I am poor.

The Bible says:

Originally Posted By: The Holy Bible
A poor man that oppresseth the poor is like a sweeping rain which leaveth no food. (Proverbs 28:3, KJV)


Even poor people are held to account for how they treat others among the poor.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Green
You have made false accusations.

Which are??? ...please be specific!
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 08:25 PM

Elle,

I'm in no mood to argue. If you do not see that you have accused me of dishonesty (for not including more Bible texts--when I'm the one who has made the most use of Bible verses in this discussion); of blindness (see your opening sentence and other portions of your post); and of hiding my eyes to the reality of the problem of the poor, who am I to open your eyes?

I do note that my last post seems to have had some effect. You edited your post and removed the latter false accusation before posting your question asking me to point it out. I must say, that does appear a little dishonest.

Here's what you first posted:
Originally Posted By: Elle
This can be taken in many ways, but the way I read it is what Green and Carson are doing.... they are hiding their eyes to the reality of the problem of the poor.


And that was the primary false accusation that I felt you should be aware of. Note that I did not wish to make known my selfless acts to promote me. I am nothing. I only felt you should be aware of how perilous your ignorant accusations were in the sight of God, and this illustration of how you misunderstood me should help you understand that you may have equally misjudged Dr. Carson.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
There is no reason to use the freedom of speech on a Christian forum to simply bash someone who is not here to defend himself. His words are sufficiently general and open to interpretation that you cannot know of a certainty what he meant with them. However, I have a mind to be supportive of him for multiple reasons.
I think this is the only point I will address for now. making an accusation like this before you know the actual details of why i said it is not the best approach. I can agree that his words were general enough, one could take it several ways. I used to have respect for Carson, but that has changed. The one thing that I will say is that the remarks of Carson's which I called into question are disparaging remarks. The only thing i cannot say at this time is, was it intentional, or unintentional, on Carson's part? I am currently looking into this more to hopefully figure it out.

There is a much bigger question here. Why are people "poor?" What causes that? Will "poor people" be saved then, if it is their fault and it is because they are not in the right mindset? So far, I find Dr Carson's approach to be disparaging, and harmful to the cause of the poor.

I was hoping this topic could also be used to discuss more of the "bigger question" here. I will gladly retract anything I am proven wrong about. smile
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Elle,

I'm in no mood to argue. If you do not see that you have accused me of dishonesty (for not including more Bible texts--when I'm the one who has made the most use of Bible verses in this discussion);

No... not because you didn't quote "more" biblical texts because you said that this was a "summary of the Biblical causes of poverty" ... that's by far a true statement.....re-read what you've said below:
Originally Posted By: Green
[u][b]From these texts, we can get a summary of the Biblical causes of poverty as follows:[b][u]

Dealing with a slack hand (careless/slow worker)
Withholding unnecessarily
Not heeding rebuke
Refusing instruction
Loving sleep
Loving pleasure
Being a drunkard
Being a glutton
Hasting to be rich
Hiding one's eyes from the needs of the poor


What I think was "dishonest" (as you had to skim over 200+ Biblical text about the poor to pull out the ones that favored your stand) is this list was by far a true representation of the Biblical cause of poverty. I came up with 7 additional ones from the top of my head; but if I would of had the time to read all the 200+ texts...I probably could of seen some more.

Actually your list only really listed 2 Biblical causes by which the first 9 in you list the cause is the same -- the fault is on the poor.


Originally Posted By: Green
of blindness (see your opening sentence and other portions of your post); and of hiding my eyes to the reality of the problem of the poor


Well someone that couldn't see the other 7+ causes of poverty(even though I had mentioned some of these in my previous posts) in scriptures, and only could list 2 by which one(the faults on the poor) is repeated 9 times....I think it is quite obvious there's some level of blindness going on.

Eh... as I said...I have my own blind spots and so does Carson. We're all blind Green. We're all in the same boat, having similar problems.

Originally Posted By: Green
I do note that my last post seems to have had some effect. You edited your post and removed the latter false accusation before posting your question asking me to point it out. I must say, that does appear a little dishonest.

You're jumping into false conclusion Green. I had already changed my post before I had read your reply. As you know...English is not my mother tongue....Plus I suffer from some sort of expression dyslexia...I think it is quite obvious when reading my posts....especially those that I don't take the necessary time to re-edit them....it takes me quite awhile to write a post that I often have to re-read and make correction so the expression can at least has some level of readability and clarity.

Just like you did for your own post that I'm currently replying. I've noticed you had changed some stuff from the first posting that I had read. I didn't think anything wrong of that. Even an English expert who knows many languages, like yourself, might go back and re-write some of the words and thoughts earlier expressed.

Originally Posted By: Green
Here's what you first posted:
Originally Posted By: Elle
This can be taken in many ways, but the way I read it is what Green and Carson are doing.... they are hiding their eyes to the reality of the problem of the poor.


And that was the primary false accusation that I felt you should be aware of.

Take it the way you want.... but I personally do believe in you and Carson because I have absolutely no doubt that Jesus will succeed with you also. I see you as a brother on the same team Green.

Originally Posted By: Green
Note that I did not wish to make known my selfless acts to promote me. I am nothing. I only felt you should be aware of how perilous your ignorant accusations were in the sight of God, and this illustration of how you misunderstood me should help you understand that you may have equally misjudged Dr. Carson.

That was really out of context Green. Whatever you do to help the poor...doesn't change the fact of what you have expressed of your view of them -- that you believe it is their fault they are poor.

And I said ... that that view is not balance and realistic. There's always some level of faults distributed to all levels...but to only present two level without the other 7+ others....I think it is unbalance and not a realistic outlook.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Elle,

As I understood things, the opening post in this topic did not address itself to Carson's views about how to treat the poor, but rather his views about why they are poor.

Even poor people are held to account for how they treat others among the poor.
I can agree to these two comments. Subsequent to the OP, I am now asking the why question too. I think the comment I quoted from Carson engenders this and similar questions.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle

The problem with this type of blinded bias & narrow view, is it is not realistic and balance. People don't buy into that anymore. Notice on his 10 listed elements, that the first 9, the fault & responsibility is put on the poor.
I find that this is the general direction of the Carson comment I quoted in the OP. Thats why I brought up the subject here.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 10:38 PM

This socialistic politically correct nonsense that Carson can't remember what it is like to be poor is just out and out nonsense. Carson is going to forget the formative years of his life? Riiiiight! NOT!!!!

I am poor. I am most likely the poorest person by far on this site. I wasn't always that way, but the vicissitudes of life have rendered me that way. I grew up poor too, but fought my way out of it, only to become poor once again through no fault of my own. And I do not consider it an insult to be called poor. It is an accurate description of my economic situation.

I have never considered being wealthy my goal in life. Never wanted it. Saw pretty early in life just how many people will sell their souls for money and wanted nothing to do with that. One of my favorite songs all time is Richard Cory by Simon and Garfunkel. It's about the rich man who went out and put a bullet in his head because his life had no meaning, and the poor man who still wanted to be just like Richard Cory because he was wealthy.

If someone wants to look down on me because I'm poor, that is their problem, not mine. I wouldn't want someone like that for a "friend". Anyone who has that idea has no depth of personality, character, and thought. It is also true that anyone who thinks a poor man must have help to make it for no other reason than because he is poor thinks that a poor man is incapable of making it on his own. That is indicative of the same shallowness of personality, character and thought. That kind of thinking is insulting to say the least. It is what is always found in political correctness.

I'm poor so I'm stupid? I'm poor so I have no ability? I'm poor so I just can't make it on my own? How insulting can you get? That thinking is nothing more than arrogance and discrimination. Most poor people do not stay poor all their lives, despite what the socialists would have you believe. Incomes go up and down over life times. A person can start out poor and through education, effort, and determination rise out of his poverty. Many do. I did it. Also, many people can start out wealthy and because of indolence, lack of ambition, wasteful spending, etc... end up in poverty. Which person is more to be pitied? Which person is the one who cannot make it on their own? The poor man or the rich spendthrift?

I would point you to many people to show that their poverty was no hindrance to their becoming greatly successful: Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell, Glenn Beck, and many more. Read the autobiographies of Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Walter E. Williams, and Thomas Sowell. All started out in poverty but all overcame it. All were determined to overcome it. All of them wanted to learn. They were poor in money but not in spirit, ambition, and determination.

You can find the autobiographies of Booker T. Washington and Frederick Douglass online. They are excellent reads and show just how discriminatory the socialist thinking is that says that blacks, and/or poor people, can't make it without the government paving the way.

Here's a statement from an article by Frederick Douglass titled "What the Black Man Wants".
Quote:
Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!



Me? I was happy with middle class income. I never wanted wealth. It was never my goal. I saw what that kind of ambition did to too many people and wanted nothing to do with it. It turned human beings into fiends. Greed always does. And greed is found in human nature, not in a political or economic system. For the proof of that look at the Soviet Union, Red China, etc.... The political elites lived like feudal lords while their subjects starved to death or drank themselves to death because of hopelessness.

I injected some race here because Ben Carson is black, and he is despised by the political left in this country. However, his thinking is right in line with former slaves like Booker T. Washington and Frederick Douglass.

Being helplessly poor is a state of mind. It is wanting other people to take responsibility for you, to give you that which you do not want to put out the effort to earn yourself. I went to high school with a couple of guys that were what we called retarded. Both of those guys had a good life in spite of not having enough intellect to graduate high school with more than a D+ average. One went on to own his own business. The other was a steady employee. Both did well for themselves. Were they rich? No. But they are happy, contented, and comfortable. They made their own way without any government help, and they are proud of the fact they did. It has given them a lot of self-respect. Self-respect that living off the government would never allow them to have. I like both of those guys. I always have. That they had to work as hard as they did to graduate from high school made me respect them back in the 70's. That they have continued to live productive lives is a testament to their character and determination. Socialists would rob them of that, and for that, plus many more reasons, I detest socialist thought.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/28/17 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
This socialistic politically correct nonsense that Carson can't remember what it is like to be poor is just out and out nonsense. Carson is going to forget the formative years of his life? Riiiiight! NOT!!!!
This socialistic politically correct nonsense that Carson can't remember what it is like to be poor is just out and out nonsense. Carson is going to forget the formative years of his life? Riiiiight! NOT!!!![/quote]To be "socialistic" it would have to be a political theory that advocates state ownership of industry and capital. How you drew such a comparison from the one-sentence comment I made is something I will likely never know. Your comment here misquotes me in many ways. Here is what I said:
Quote:
"I think the multi-million dollar mansion he has recently purchased has softened him up the wrong way. He has obviously lost touch with the reality of poverty."
I did not even come close to stating that Carson would or will "forget his formative years." I said that he has recently purchased a multi-million dollar mansion, and that this shows something to the world, about what he is doing and why.

I dont think you are giving "socialism" a fair definition by stretching it way out there somewhere to try to force it to mean the one-sentence comment/reflection I made on Carson's observable actions in his new appointment for "helping" the poor.

One might note too, at this point that according to the article I referenced that Carson has slashed the budget for "helping" the "poor" by 5-6 billion dollars.

As others have already pointed out the Bible also calls people "poor" in several different ways, but I am not questioning that. I am questioning the disparaging comments and actions of someone who should know better. He is either in the process of forgetting, or just in the ignoring of his "formative years."

Like it or not, money does talk, and it does change some people. I am simply reflecting on real life observations.

I have not drawn firm conclusions in this matter yet.
Posted By: Green Cochoa

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/29/17 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
You're jumping into false conclusion Green. I had already changed my post before I had read your reply. As you know...English is not my mother tongue....Plus I suffer from some sort of expression dyslexia...I think it is quite obvious when reading my posts....especially those that I don't take the necessary time to re-edit them....it takes me quite awhile to write a post that I often have to re-read and make correction so the expression can at least has some level of readability and clarity.

Just like you did for your own post that I'm currently replying. I've noticed you had changed some stuff from the first posting that I had read. I didn't think anything wrong of that. Even an English expert who knows many languages, like yourself, might go back and re-write some of the words and thoughts earlier expressed.

I have no idea what you are talking about, Elle. For your information, you again make false statements. I have not edited any of my posts in this thread. You may need to get some help. Your mind is playing tricks on you. Please put less confidence in your perceptions and memory until you have gotten some help.

Originally Posted By: Elle
What I think was "dishonest" (as you had to skim over 200+ Biblical text about the poor to pull out the ones that favored your stand) is this list was by far a true representation of the Biblical cause of poverty. I came up with 7 additional ones from the top of my head; but if I would of had the time to read all the 200+ texts...I probably could of seen some more.


I am glad you feel the list was a true representation. I don't understand why you think it is dishonest to use selected Bible verses. Next time you choose one of the 31,102 verses in the Bible, will it be "dishonest" to quote it?

Again, please consider getting some help. You may be deficient in some essential nutrient or vitamin, or you may have some elemental or biochemical toxicity affecting your mind. For now, I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. At present, you seem unable to properly interpret what I say.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
I hope this is the right forum section to post this in? I did my best guess. Please move if it actually is in the wrong section. smile

It appears that Dr Ben Carson is placing the blame for "being poor" on the poor.
Quote:
On Wednesday night, Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson — whose budget to help low-income households would be cut by more than $6 billion next year — added his own thoughts. He said in a radio interview that "poverty to a large extent is also a state of mind."

Carson — who himself grew up in poverty to become a widely acclaimed neurosurgeon — said people with the "right mind set" can have everything taken away from them, and they'll pull themselves up. He believes the converse is true as well. "You take somebody with the wrong mind-set, you can give them everything in the world (and) they'll work their way right back down to the bottom," Carson said.
Being Poor Is A State Of Mind??

To what degree is Carson right? To what degree is Carson wrong? Is there some happy "middle road" here? Would the Bible support Carson's statement on "being poor?"


The Bible does teach that we shouldn't help the poor if their lazy!
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 05:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.


Excellent post Elle.

This will vary from place to place, but, a lot of the poor in the USA and even around the world are NOT poor because they did it to themselves. There are a lot of people who want to work and can work, but, work and money are not available to them. This is not their fault.

This is why people need to stop trusting their governments and industries and turn to God for wisdom and hope.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 05:46 AM

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Elle
That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.
So you are disagreeing with Carson and saying that "poverty" is not a state of mind?

Myself, I certainly do not agree with him. he seems really out of touch on the issue.


I hate to say it, but, too often, I find Brother Carson too political in his thinking.
Posted By: Alchemy

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 05:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?

No I said that Carson path was that. Not many experienced "getting out of poverty" like Carson have. Actually, most did not.

Poverty is increasing in all nations and will increase further as the current economic system further crashes and if the DEBT can get's kick further down the road without being address. Reality is ... all Western countries are in DEBT above their eye balls no matter if some individuals inside the country stricked it rich and has a successful story like Carson.

My point is Carson view is very narrow and not balance and I've listed 3 reasons in the above 2 posts up to now why I think Carson view is not balance and not realistic.

But you kland, from what I recall from other discussion....you probably agree with Carson. That's ok. We don't need to agree on every thing.


Another excellent post Elle.

As long as we have to get our money from debt, there isn't any way to stop the debt crisis from growing! Factories and jobs are going to be lost regardless of your state of mind.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Excellent post Elle.

This will vary from place to place, but, a lot of the poor in the USA and even around the world are NOT poor because they did it to themselves. There are a lot of people who want to work and can work, but, work and money are not available to them. This is not their fault.

This is why people need to stop trusting their governments and industries and turn to God for wisdom and hope.
I agree, her post makes a lot of sense. The Bible defines how we are to relate to our governments, and it is our responsibility to do so respectfully.

I feel that Carson is out of line with the statements I have read about his take on "poverty." Nothing I have said about Carson is intended personally, but I do think money sometimes changes people, and having come from "poverty" myself, i can categorically state Carson is wrong in what he has publically said. I dont want to fight with him, or about him. I am addressing an idea he is putting forth.
Posted By: kland

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 05:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?

No I said that Carson path was that. Not many experienced "getting out of poverty" like Carson have. Actually, most did not.
But you are. Else, you are saying Carson made a choice. Therefore, others can make a choice. And you therefore, would be supporting what Carson says.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Carson. I'm just calling your statement an error, "Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception", when you make that a comparison to poor in general.

Without.
Therefore.
People are poor because of their mom or the Lord.

Your words, not mine.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By: kland
There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Rather than what the Lord "failed" to do, it looks like Elleis simply saying what she thinks the Lord did do, through Carson's mother. She is trying to point out a success, and a success that I have no problem with either. He did a lot with a little.

I am simply questioning Carson's idea in this topic where he appears that he is saying people are poor because of their wrong-thinking. If that was so then,how do some ungodly people get rich?

It is a common question that many ask,and one which requires no pointed attacks on Elle
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 06:18 PM

It is likely that I do not know everything about this topic,and that I have yet to learn what I am missing the boat on.:)
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 06:22 PM

God has not called you to defend yourself, but to be faithful. Here is what I do:

(1) Spend extra time in prayer and fasting,
(2) Talk about it with a trusted friend, and
(3) Go out of my way to act in loving ways to my attackers.

People eventually will see the same issues you saw, if you are correct.
Posted By: Elle

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 07:24 PM

I do agree with your post above. I do have a reflection to add to your thought below.
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: kland Elle
There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Rather than what the Lord "failed" to do, it looks like Elleis simply saying what she thinks the Lord did do, through Carson's mother. She is trying to point out a success, and a success that I have no problem with either. He did a lot with a little.

I am simply questioning Carson's idea in this topic where he appears that he is saying people are poor because of their wrong-thinking. If that was so then,how do some ungodly people get rich?

It is a common question that many ask,and one which requires no pointed attacks on Elle

The Wanderer don't worry about kland. I'm not. Kland often brings up some very good objections that needs clarification that adds to the discussion. Over the years, I have benefited personally from kland objections as without them, I wouldn't of "chewed my cud"(pondered) a little more deeper.

But also, he is good in twisting things and bringing confusion in the matter like he is trying to do in his posts previous. So I take some and I leave some. That's what I do and I have told kland himself about a year ago, that I will do that with his posts.

I believe that the attacks is totally normal and expected. It's part of the process as we grow in Christ. We all buck along this process. I'm still bucking myself when the Lord reveal more new things that shakes my pre-conceived view.

But at the end God "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1Ti 2:4 meaning we (e.g. me & kland & Green & everyone else here) will come to all agree because God will bring us all in the knowledge of the truth. So I know this day is coming where we will all agree and work together in subduing the whole world under Christ feet so that God can be again "all in all". Not "all in some", but "all in all".

I don't want to tell you to not correct kland when he's pulling his stuff. That's not my place. You do whatever the Spirit leads you. But for myself, it's ok. As I understand that the attacks, the bucking, or whatever else is part of the process ... meanwhile I know God perfect plan in us is progressing & maturing and at the end He will fulfill all His words & promises.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/30/17 10:33 PM

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Gary K
This socialistic politically correct nonsense that Carson can't remember what it is like to be poor is just out and out nonsense. Carson is going to forget the formative years of his life? Riiiiight! NOT!!!!


To be "socialistic" it would have to be a political theory that advocates state ownership of industry and capital. How you drew such a comparison from the one-sentence comment I made is something I will likely never know. Your comment here misquotes me in many ways. Here is what I said:
Quote:
"I think the multi-million dollar mansion he has recently purchased has softened him up the wrong way. He has obviously lost touch with the reality of poverty."
I did not even come close to stating that Carson would or will "forget his formative years." I said that he has recently purchased a multi-million dollar mansion, and that this shows something to the world, about what he is doing and why.

I dont think you are giving "socialism" a fair definition by stretching it way out there somewhere to try to force it to mean the one-sentence comment/reflection I made on Carson's observable actions in his new appointment for "helping" the poor.

One might note too, at this point that according to the article I referenced that Carson has slashed the budget for "helping" the "poor" by 5-6 billion dollars.

As others have already pointed out the Bible also calls people "poor" in several different ways, but I am not questioning that. I am questioning the disparaging comments and actions of someone who should know better. He is either in the process of forgetting, or just in the ignoring of his "formative years."

Like it or not, money does talk, and it does change some people. I am simply reflecting on real life observations.

I have not drawn firm conclusions in this matter yet.



Wanderer,

1. When you say Carson has forgotten what it is to be poor, you are saying he has forgotten his formative years for he spent all of them in poverty.

2. Trump and Carson haven't actually cut a cent from the budget in Carson's department. When the government talks about "cutting" it is not saying they are going to spend less money next year than they did this year. It is saying they have reduced the proposed increase in future spending. The media and the government are complicit in this behavior. It is nothing but sophistry when they say they have "cut" spending. When the average man thinks of a "cut" in his personal spending he means he is going to spend less than he did last year/month. Not so the government.

3. The more the government spends the worse the situation is for the poor. They are hurt the worst for deficit spending automatically causes inflation. And who gets hurt the worst by inflation? The poor. When the little they have is worth less than it was previously it is a big deal to them. It is not a big deal to the wealthy individual. They have enough in reserve that inflation is to them no big deal.

4. The government is responsible for most of the current poverty. It has so over-regulated business that it cannot thrive, and without thriving businesses jobs disappear, and what jobs disappear first? The lower income jobs. Also, the more regulations are in place the more businesses have to spend on accountants and lawyers so they can figure out how to comply with the regulations and how much that compliance will cost them. That means they must hire more lawyers and accountants which are high paying jobs. What is sacrificed to pay those expenses that the government mandates? Lower paying jobs for the cuts have to be made somewhere in the labor costs. Put the blame where it belongs, on leftist style government following socialist dogma that says the government should control everything.

5. The fact that you cannot trace out the principles of Marxism in what goes on around you every day says you do not understand it. Socialism, Marxism, is about government control of the economy, not necessarily complete government ownership of it. This is why Obamacare is socialism. It is the government mandating how healthcare will be paid for and how much of it will be administered, how doctors will treat patients, what they can prescribe, how much will be paid for specific treatments, etc.... That is government control.

In the last week or so a story came out about a farmer who was fined $2.8 million for tilling his own field. Why? Because during the winter and early spring when river water levels are high that portion of his field floods. Then, later in the spring in dries out when the water level in the river goes down. The land is dry the rest of the year. It does this every year. The EPA fined this guy all that money because he tilled a dry field. Think that didn't cost some jobs over what is pure nonsense? Think those are high paying, or lower paying, jobs that will be lost? Look at all the jobs that have been taken away by the EPA over the years. They have almost completely destroyed several industries. Government mandated job loss. Government mandated poverty. What about NAFTA and other "trade policies" the government has created? They destroyed hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country, if not millions. More government mandated poverty for once all those good paying manufacturing jobs were gone what was left? Service jobs such as flipping hamburgers, janitorial, working in a retail store, etc... where the income level is reduced by more than 50%. Once more, government mandated poverty.

What does the left scream about that Trump is doing? He is getting rid of NAFTA and other really lousy "trade" deals that have destroyed good paying US jobs. He is trying to bring manufacturing back here because those are jobs that pay well and many of them are highly skilled jobs for machinists, welders, etc.... Jobs that it doesn't take a 4 year liberal arts education to get. He is also backing out things like the Paris environmental agreements that kill jobs. You leftists scream about that too, and then you blame everyone but who is really responsible for the job losses and resulting poverty. Another example of government mandated poverty.

Deficit spending, who thought up this job and wealth destroying idiocy? The Marxist's hero economist, John Maynard Keynes. Let's look at him a little. I'm just going to say what I know about him and then give you a link to a book on him that documents it all.

Keynes was a real piece of work. His goal in life, as told to a friend of his, was to do one of three things: organize a trust, swindle the investing public, or manage a railroad. He despised thrift, economy, Christianity, heterosexuality, anyone who had a lower IQ than he had, and honesty. His "great" economic book, General Theory, is nothing more than fraud. It is deliberately written in such obscure and convoluted language that it is almost impossible to understand. He claimed it was all new material, but it has been proven by economists who studied it that it is nothing but a collection of economic theories that had been discarded as unworkable before he wrote the book. He just repackaged them in such obfuscated language that it took years to understand what he was saying. Many of his "facts and figures" are outright dishonest and pulled out thin air, while many of his mathematical formulas have been shown to completely false. This man is the one who most western governments, including the US and Canadian governments and their politicians follow. Why? It gives politicians power to say they can "jumpstart" the economy with government money, in other words, with spending and an ever increasing debt. The facts are, however, much different. Every time politicians and central banks interfere with the economy they create more problems. Our economies are so tinkered with now that there are no "free markets" left. Remember Obama's recent $400,000 speech? A reward for pushing government money to his buddies.

Yet when outsiders like Carson and Trump start reducing the rate of increase in spending, and reduce regulation, what happens? The so-called "friends of the poor" scream bloody murder that they are killing the poor man. Baloney. They are working to help the poor man by creating an economic landscape that is friendly to jobs so that wages will increase as the labor pool shrinks and people will have the money they need to live on.

People look at the debt clock and think, wow, we are $20 trillion in debt. LOL. We are so far in debt that if we cut government spending to the point that we could start to pay off our debt at $1 trillion a year it would take us around 150 years to pay it off. See, our "debt" is spending that Congress has actually taken in hand and said, this is how this will be paid for. We have other spending that Congress hasn't even thought about dealing with, as in how we are going to pay for it when it comes due. And that debt, the last time I looked at it back in 2010 or 2011 was at $120-140 trillion. We are bankrupt many times over. And yet you guys scream when government spending is reduced in any way.

Did you know Obama set things up with the banking industry so that the government can just go in and take money away from us if a big enough crash hits? That's right. They can drain anyone's bank account at will. It's that way in Canada, GB, France, Australia, Germany, Italy, Greece, Japan, etc....

Here is the link to the book on Keynes. Read it. Educate yourself about who you have been following in economic thinking. https://mises.org/library/keynes-man-1
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 06:08 AM

Gary, you have shared REALITY - thanks!

Fifty or sixty or so years ago, a person in north America with drive and determination could raise themselves out of poverty.

But half a century later things have drastically changed, as pointed out in Gary's post. Today the 'socialist' type government -- controlling everything has so regulated and manipulated everything, that it is becoming extremely difficult for most to lift themselves out of poverty.

Rather than knocking Carson, as most were doing -- people should consider what Carson is actually trying to address! A change in government back to something a little more "normal" rather than this beastly control system that is bleeding the middle class dry and driving them into the low income population, while the formerly "low income" category is reduced to poverty.

Yes -- poverty can become a "state of mind" -- a state of hopelessness, a state of "what's the use" why even try. A state of mind that governments have largely created. The aim of socialist government is to get people DEPENDANT on them, then they can control them at will.

One of reasons America grew great, was the independent nature of it's citizens, free to dream and work to achieve their dream -- a land where anyone who had the ambition could advance and achieve. That is no longer the case due to things like Gary described (and there are many more things put in place to impoverish the populations, to take away their drive to achieve and make them dependent upon government).

Could it be that Carson was talking about government changes that bring back the "state of mind" where people feel they can achieve?
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 06:39 AM

dedication,

It is true that it is harder today than it was when I was young, but it is still possible. If men such as Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington could rise out of poverty after being born into slavery with the overt racism of that day, it can still be done today. It just takes the same kind of effort and sacrifice those men put forth to improve themselves.

If you read their stories you will see just how much they differ from the poor blacks and whites of today. Those men asked for nothing but the chance to stand on their own two feet. They didn't ask for something for nothing. They despised something-for-nothing and recognized it as being destructive to self-respect and dignity, and the prospect of making a success out of their lives. Their state-of-mind was not even similar to what the government has taught people to think today.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 08:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Here is the link to the book on Keynes. Read it. Educate yourself about who you have been following in economic thinking. https://mises.org/library/keynes-man-1
well,I thank you for your efforts,but you have essentially wasted your breath. How you can say all this stuff about me is just plain amazing.You have no idea what my political leanings are, I have only stated a 2 or 3 sentence disagreement with something Carson says,and unless you are a mind reader, you should not presume to know people so well from just a few internet posts. You appear to have your mind made up so I will leave you to it.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
dedication,

It is true that it is harder today than it was when I was young, but it is still possible. If men such as Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington could rise out of poverty after being born into slavery with the overt racism of that day, it can still be done today. It just takes the same kind of effort and sacrifice those men put forth to improve themselves.

If you read their stories you will see just how much they differ from the poor blacks and whites of today. Those men asked for nothing but the chance to stand on their own two feet. They didn't ask for something for nothing. They despised something-for-nothing and recognized it as being destructive to self-respect and dignity, and the prospect of making a success out of their lives. Their state-of-mind was not even similar to what the government has taught people to think today.
Blaming the government for HOW people are thinking is just another pile of dead bones. There are plenty of poor people who do not think like the government wants them to
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 08:57 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication

Rather than knocking Carson, as most were doing -- people should consider what Carson is actually trying to address!
If people would actually do this then it would be seen how wrong his take is on poverty. He has very much confused the cause and effect factor to something that is not real, and that will not help.Come back here in 6 months and tell me again how "wrong" I am on this point.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Elle
I don't want to tell you to not correct kland when he's pulling his stuff. That's not my place. You do whatever the Spirit leads you. But for myself, it's ok. As I understand that the attacks, the bucking, or whatever else is part of the process ... meanwhile I know God perfect plan in us is progressing & maturing and at the end He will fulfill all His words & promises.
You are right.God is in control smile
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Gary K

Here is the link to the book on Keynes. Read it. Educate yourself about who you have been following in economic thinking. https://mises.org/library/keynes-man-1
well,I thank you for your efforts,but you have essentially wasted your breath. How you can say all this stuff about me is just plain amazing.You have no idea what my political leanings are, I have only stated a 2 or 3 sentence disagreement with something Carson says,and unless you are a mind reader, you should not presume to know people so well from just a few internet posts. You appear to have your mind made up so I will leave you to it.


Well, good try, but no ceegar....

I have read hundreds, if not thousands, of your posts. This is not the only site you post on, nor that I read. I have seen you parrot left-wing talking points many a time. Never once have I seen you express conservative, constitutionalist, or libertarian
political ideas.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Gary K
dedication,

It is true that it is harder today than it was when I was young, but it is still possible. If men such as Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington could rise out of poverty after being born into slavery with the overt racism of that day, it can still be done today. It just takes the same kind of effort and sacrifice those men put forth to improve themselves.

If you read their stories you will see just how much they differ from the poor blacks and whites of today. Those men asked for nothing but the chance to stand on their own two feet. They didn't ask for something for nothing. They despised something-for-nothing and recognized it as being destructive to self-respect and dignity, and the prospect of making a success out of their lives. Their state-of-mind was not even similar to what the government has taught people to think today.
Blaming the government for HOW people are thinking is just another pile of dead bones. There are plenty of poor people who do not think like the government wants them to


Really? Let's take a look at what goes on on college, high school, and even middle school campuses anymore. A bunch of eighth graders just refused to have their picture taken with a Republican politician. Why? They hate the ideas Republicans stand for. College students are highly opposed to the 2nd amendment. They demonstrate against it quite often. They even riot over the free expression of ideas that they disagree with. They say blacks shouldn't even have to pay for their education because their ancestors were slaves. They are a direct reflection of what the media and the government, through the federal department of education, has been teaching them for the last few decades. They push the LGBT agenda in every way possible, and anyone who says that is wrong is attacked viciously. Schools are fast becoming centers of fascism, not freedom of expression. School administrators are banning private prayer, the Bible, almost everything to do with Christianity while pushing Islamic beliefs, etc.... These are all the things the leftist politicians have been pushing for years, and getting highly aggressive about since Obama was first elected. Not getting an abortion is considered too controversial to even discuss on school campuses anymore.

I have read posts of yours that were in favor of many of these things. So don't even imagine that I have assumed anything from only one or two posts of yours. You have expressed your leftist ideas again and again online.
Posted By: Nadi

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 05/31/17 11:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
Really? Let's take a look at what goes on on college, high school, and even middle school campuses anymore. A bunch of eighth graders just refused to have their picture taken with a Republican politician. Why? They hate the ideas Republicans stand for. College students are highly opposed to the 2nd amendment. They demonstrate against it quite often. They even riot over the free expression of ideas that they disagree with. They say blacks shouldn't even have to pay for their education because their ancestors were slaves. They are a direct reflection of what the media and the government, through the federal department of education, has been teaching them for the last few decades. They push the LGBT agenda in every way possible, and anyone who says that is wrong is attacked viciously. Schools are fast becoming centers of fascism, not freedom of expression. School administrators are banning private prayer, the Bible, almost everything to do with Christianity while pushing Islamic beliefs, etc.... These are all the things the leftist politicians have been pushing for years, and getting highly aggressive about since Obama was first elected. Not getting an abortion is considered too controversial to even discuss on school campuses anymore.

I have read posts of yours that were in favor of many of these things. So don't even imagine that I have assumed anything from only one or two posts of yours. You have expressed your leftist ideas again and again online.

Quite a harsh and, in my experience, unwarranted condemnation of "...college, high school, and even middle school campuses..." Although these things do undoubtedly occur, I do not see them as either normal or universal. There are thousands of schools where these things do not occur, and free speech and tolerance is promoted.

It is unfortunate to paint an entire group (ie: "college students") based on the behavior of some, or claim that "anyone" who says otherwise is "viciously attacked." Undoubtedly some are. But when I read statements like the above I see a very strong, non-negotiable bias.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 06:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
dedication,

It is true that it is harder today than it was when I was young, but it is still possible. If men such as Frederick Douglass and Booker T. Washington could rise out of poverty after being born into slavery with the overt racism of that day, it can still be done today. It just takes the same kind of effort and sacrifice those men put forth to improve themselves.

If you read their stories you will see just how much they differ from the poor blacks and whites of today. Those men asked for nothing but the chance to stand on their own two feet. They didn't ask for something for nothing. They despised something-for-nothing and recognized it as being destructive to self-respect and dignity, and the prospect of making a success out of their lives. Their state-of-mind was not even similar to what the government has taught people to think today.


Agree!
It is still possible.
As a Canadian I've seen it more in the "native" populations.
The government played a big hand in destroying the drive and self respect of the natives -- placing them on reserves, giving them houses, and all sorts of benefits, yet so many have basically just "given up". All those benefits and they are living in poverty and their suicide rate is extremely high.

Yet, not all -- there are "natives" who are thrifty and have studied and worked to lift themselves out of the despondency, they established business, they have nice homes, jobs, and self respect, dignity and purpose.

What you wrote is very true.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary K

I have read posts of yours that were in favor of many of these things. So don't even imagine that I have assumed anything from only one or two posts of yours. You have expressed your leftist ideas again and again online.
Regardless of what I am;it has nothing to do with the cause/s of poverty. What I am is not the topic of this thread. I have asked the question: "Is Ben Carson right?" When you can supply enough empirical evidence to show that he is right, people will be more inclined to believe your desperate ploy to sneeringly disparage my character. The more you do this, the more I believe I am right. Carson is wrong on this one. As a man of science, he is ignoring the realities of cause and effect in poverty. IMHO smile
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 08:17 AM

Getting into the influence of the "educational system"!

To be honest I can only shake my head SMH at some of the things going on in our educational system.

Teachers are not supposed to fail, or give failing grades to their students even if the students don't do any work, and don't apply themselves, because it might destroy their "self esteem".
What are these so called educators thinking?
That's not building self respect, it's creating monsters who think the world owes them everything while they do nothing.

Then there is the big emphases on rewards to "motivate".
The students who are really into doing their work, get a sticker at the end. BUT the students who don't do their work are given rewards (often much bigger rewards) for every question they answer. Thus they get way more rewards for being difficult than the students who apply themselves to learning.



Again -- it's creating the mentality that the world owes them a living even if they do nothing.

Another problem in all this is students often are not taught to do something simply for the satisfaction of doing necessary tasks and learning tasks well. Too often school work or other essential work is done only for some reason unrelated to the task itself. Thus the task is done with minimal effort -- just enough to get by, to gain the "rewards" or "handouts" promised, rather than seeing value and dignity in the task itself.
Posted By: dedication

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 08:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Nadi


There are thousands of schools where these things do not occur, and free speech and tolerance is promoted.


Now it is true " There are thousands of schools where .. free speech and tolerance is promoted."

But then we need to ask -- tolerance of what?
Free speech on what topics?

How about the one topic mentioned?

There are two groups:

Group one says alternate sexual lifestyles are normal, you must tolerate them.

Group two says: We will tolerate them in that we will not harm those who believe different from us, but we do not believe it is normal, it destroys the family structure, for the normal family is husband/wife and children. We believe the alternative sexual arrangements are wrong.

Group one says: group two is not tolerant, we will not tolerate intolerants. You many not express yourselves on this subject for that is being intolerant.

Group two says: But what we expressed is tolerance of something we do not believe in, we will not harm them. But you want more than tolerance -- You are imposing your view upon us expecting us to sanction your alternate lifestyles, and allow you to teach our children that it is normal, while we must not express our views. That is intolerance.

Group one: we will not tolerate intolerance

Group two: so you are the intolerant ones even though you teach tolerance and free speech, you will not tolerate or allow free speech to those who differ from your view point.

And thus what Gary wrote is by far more true than many realize:

"Schools are fast becoming centers of fascism, not freedom of expression. School administrators are banning private prayer, the Bible, almost everything to do with Christianity while pushing Islamic beliefs"

--- and spiritualistic beliefs -- what is celebrated in most public schools?
Halloween is big time with lots of goblins, witches, and gruesome stuff, celebrating death, skeletons, gravestones. Say anything that those things offend you, and you are said to be "intolerant".

Christmas has lots of santas reindeer, and elfs. As to the Nativity-- ah better not have Nativity, it might offend someone, and we must not offend anyone -- right?
(well those offended by Halloween decorations of witches and little devils with pitch fork decorations are intolerant, don't worry about offending their comfort)

For all the talk of "free speech" and tolerance, both are being compromised.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 07:02 PM

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: Gary K

I have read posts of yours that were in favor of many of these things. So don't even imagine that I have assumed anything from only one or two posts of yours. You have expressed your leftist ideas again and again online.
Regardless of what I am;it has nothing to do with the cause/s of poverty. What I am is not the topic of this thread. I have asked the question: "Is Ben Carson right?" When you can supply enough empirical evidence to show that he is right, people will be more inclined to believe your desperate ploy to sneeringly disparage my character. The more you do this, the more I believe I am right. Carson is wrong on this one. As a man of science, he is ignoring the realities of cause and effect in poverty. IMHO smile


Your view of Ben Carson's words has everything to do with your political philosophy. Your comments on him and your politics are inseparable.

Just where have I smeared your character? I have brought up only one person's character on this thread, and that was the character of John Maynard Keynes. I brought it up because his character has everything to do with his life and the economic fraud he perpetrated upon the world. All I have said about you is that your views are very much socialist in nature, and that is absolutely true. That you parrot what the left-wing media says is also true.

Have you ever studied economics? I have spent the last few years studying it. Not full time, but I have spent considerable time on the subject, as in hundreds of hours of study. I have a total of 100+ ebooks and collections of essays and articles made into ebooks by economists, plus I have read a half dozen or so paper books on the subject too. So, I am not writing from a position of ignorance and supposition, but from a position of far more knowledge of economics than is normally found outside of actual economists themselves. I have also read extensively on all sides of the political issues involved. How many hours of reading and study I have put into it I have no idea but it is probably close to the same number of hours I have spent on economics.

Being disabled and unable to work has left me with nothing but time on my hands and rather than spend that time uselessly I have devoted it to study for the last almost 20 years. Most days I spend more hours studying/reading than people spend working. They spend 40 hours a week working. I spend anywhere from 60-70 hours a week studying/reading.

Oh, and just so you know, I have also read a lot on psychology and sociology. Not as much as I have on economics and political philosophy, but still more than someone with a 4 year degree in those subjects. My interests are many and I am curious about just about everything so I read extensively on many subjects. I may only have 15 years of formal education, but I have spent many thousands of hours educating myself.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Really? Let's take a look at what goes on on college, high school, and even middle school campuses anymore. A bunch of eighth graders just refused to have their picture taken with a Republican politician. Why? They hate the ideas Republicans stand for. College students are highly opposed to the 2nd amendment. They demonstrate against it quite often. They even riot over the free expression of ideas that they disagree with. They say blacks shouldn't even have to pay for their education because their ancestors were slaves. They are a direct reflection of what the media and the government, through the federal department of education, has been teaching them for the last few decades. They push the LGBT agenda in every way possible, and anyone who says that is wrong is attacked viciously. Schools are fast becoming centers of fascism, not freedom of expression. School administrators are banning private prayer, the Bible, almost everything to do with Christianity while pushing Islamic beliefs, etc.... These are all the things the leftist politicians have been pushing for years, and getting highly aggressive about since Obama was first elected. Not getting an abortion is considered too controversial to even discuss on school campuses anymore.

I have read posts of yours that were in favor of many of these things. So don't even imagine that I have assumed anything from only one or two posts of yours. You have expressed your leftist ideas again and again online.

Quite a harsh and, in my experience, unwarranted condemnation of "...college, high school, and even middle school campuses..." Although these things do undoubtedly occur, I do not see them as either normal or universal. There are thousands of schools where these things do not occur, and free speech and tolerance is promoted.

It is unfortunate to paint an entire group (ie: "college students") based on the behavior of some, or claim that "anyone" who says otherwise is "viciously attacked." Undoubtedly some are. But when I read statements like the above I see a very strong, non-negotiable bias.


I can give you hundreds of links to what is happening on all levels of public education. And to say that the attacks upon those who advocate free speech and libertarian and conservative points of view aren't vicious is to ignore reality. Just this last week a liberal biology professor was told by the police that they could not hope to protect him on campus so he had to hold his biology classes off campus. What was going on is that groups of protesters were stopping and searching cars on campus, doing what the police described as "looking for someone". And the police were told to "stand down" and let the demonstrators do what they wanted to by the college president. That "someone" was a professor who objected to the idea that white people out to be banned from campus during a day celebrating blacks.

These kinds of things are very wide spread. Have you seen the number of times high school kids have been sent home because they wore an American flag shirt? Why were they sent home? Because the American flag is too "controversial". Did you read about the students who wanted to create a pro-life organization on their high school campus for the purpose of educating people about abortion and to give diapers to those unwed students who had babies? It was denied because it was too "controversial".

These are daily headlines from across the country. It is a daily event, not a weekly or monthly event. So, this is very widespread in public education. And when school administrators do not repress conservative points of view they are sued by leftists. The climate is freedom from religion, not freedom of religion. It is also very much freedom from free speech, not freedom of speech.

I'd like to see you give me some news articles showing how the public school system is upholding free speech for all sides of society. If you can find some I can give 30 or 40 that show just the opposite.

Oh, did you see the news blurb on the college professor who suited up in a ninja costume, put on a mask, and then took a large bike lock to the demonstration he participated in and beat those he disagreed with over the head the steel bike lock?

How about Kathy Griffen's little stunt yesterday with a replica of Donald Trump's head? How much outrage have you seen from the main stream press about that? Can you even imagine what they would have been like if a conservative/libertarian comedian had done that with a likeness of Obama's head? The bias is so blatant I am amazed at how many people still argue against it. To me there is only one word that describes it: indoctrination.
Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 07:35 PM

So far, I see nothing that qualifies you to analyze me the way you have. Do you really think that 100 + books in your shelf or on your computer qualifies you any better than the next guy? You have no idea how wrong you are in what you have said about me here. You dont know me,you have never met me,and you have never tried to find out just what I do believe. Sometimes, it would be better if we understand one book properly,than a hundred books wrongly.

I happen to be quite familiar with Keynes and many other interesting topics,and how it fits into Canadian History.But you will never know about any of that because i will not be back to this topic.I am not into the poison
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/01/17 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
So far, I see nothing that qualifies you to analyze me the way you have. Do you really think that 100 + books in your shelf or on your computer qualifies you any better than the next guy? You have no idea how wrong you are in what you have said about me here. You dont know me,you have never met me,and you have never tried to find out just what I do believe. Sometimes, it would be better if we understand one book properly,than a hundred books wrongly.

I happen to be quite familiar with Keynes and many other interesting topics,and how it fits into Canadian History.But you will never know about any of that because i will not be back to this topic.I am not into the poison


Oh, I see. The ideas you have expressed again and again have nothing to do with how and what you believe....

It's funny how you can tell me I have wrong understandings of things, but if I say so to you I'm into character assassination.

This reminds me of a conversation I had one time with another socialist. I started laying out the evidence for what I believed and what I saw happening in the world and his reply was I was reading all the wrong sources. Funny thing was, I was going to the original sources for my information. To him they were the "wrong" sources to read.
Posted By: Garywk

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/02/17 02:41 PM

Originally Posted By: dedication
Getting into the influence of the "educational system"!

To be honest I can only shake my head SMH at some of the things going on in our educational system.

Teachers are not supposed to fail, or give failing grades to their students even if the students don't do any work, and don't apply themselves, because it might destroy their "self esteem".
What are these so called educators thinking?
That's not building self respect, it's creating monsters who think the world owes them everything while they do nothing.

Then there is the big emphases on rewards to "motivate".
The students who are really into doing their work, get a sticker at the end. BUT the students who don't do their work are given rewards (often much bigger rewards) for every question they answer. Thus they get way more rewards for being difficult than the students who apply themselves to learning.



Again -- it's creating the mentality that the world owes them a living even if they do nothing.

Another problem in all this is students often are not taught to do something simply for the satisfaction of doing necessary tasks and learning tasks well. Too often school work or other essential work is done only for some reason unrelated to the task itself. Thus the task is done with minimal effort -- just enough to get by, to gain the "rewards" or "handouts" promised, rather than seeing value and dignity in the task itself.




Agreed. The devil is one behind all of this for it creates people who hate anything that crosses their will/desires. It brings to mind Ellen White's statement on the antedeluvians in her comments in the SDABC on Genesis 6:11.
Quote:
They worshipped selfish indulgence,— eating, drinking, merry-making,—and resorted to acts of Violence and crime if their desires and passions were interfered with.

In the days of Noah the overwhelming majority was opposed to the truth, and enamored with a tissue of falsehoods. The land was filled with Violence. War, crime, murder, was the order of the day. Just so will it be before Christ’s second coming (Manuscript 24, 1891).



Posted By: The Wanderer

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? - 06/06/17 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Gary K
How about Kathy Griffen's little stunt yesterday with a replica of Donald Trump's head? How much outrage have you seen from the main stream press about that? Can you even imagine what they would have been like if a conservative/libertarian comedian had done that with a likeness of Obama's head? The bias is so blatant I am amazed at how many people still argue against it. To me there is only one word that describes it: indoctrination.
Well; I certainly can agree with this comment re Cathy G. What a disgusting thing that was. Here in Canada, I dont get a lot of that kind of news, and dont have a TV so I had to google that and look it up. I was amazed. (to put it politely). I also would add that it is my personal opinion that what Carson said about the alleged cause of poverty is also "indoctrination," and so far from reality, that no one is going to be helped if he allows that thought to over-shadow the work he is supposed to be in charge of. Time will tell us more on that detail. I do like one thing Carson has been talking about, and it has to do with increased budgets for training and mentoring that will enable more people to do for themselves, what Carson has done for himself. I just think that that one comment, which the OP of this topic mentions is way too far out in left field. I believe that this kind of comment does not reflect the true causes of poverty.
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