2nd Quarter 2014 Christ and His Law

The law of God is as sacred as Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. Through the ages that law has been preserved as the highest standard of morality. Not all the inventions of science or the imaginations of fruitful minds have been able to discover one essential duty not covered by this code. {ST, February 1, 1910 par. 6}
God's law is the security of life and property, of peace and happiness. It was given to secure our present and eternal good. A thoughtful kindness runs through every enactment. Each commandment is an enactment of mercy, love, and saving power. {ST, February 1, 1910 par. 7}

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

Why does the Old Testament refer to the commandments as a "Covenant"?

Some Bible students have noticed that the language used in the Ten Commandment is the language of a covenant.

What is the difference between commandments and a covenant?

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Could we construct a Bible study from the books of Moses that outlined the coming Christ?

9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

the birth of the child of Abraham, and that of Mary, was to teach a great spiritual truth, a truth that we are slow to learn and ready to forget. In ourselves we are incapable of doing any good thing; but that which we cannot do will be wrought by the power of God in every submissive and believing soul. It was through faith that the child of promise was given. It is through faith that spiritual life is begotten, and we are enabled to do the works of righteousness. {DA 98.3}

In reviewing our past history, having traveled over every step of advance to our present standing, I can say, Praise God! As I see what God has wrought, I am filled with astonishment, and with confidence in Christ as leader. We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history. {CET 204.1}

"We are not to inquire, What is the practice of men? or, What is the custom of the world? We are not to ask, How shall I act in order to have the approval of men? or, What will the world tolerate? The question of intense interest to every soul is, What has God said? We are to read his word and obey it, not swerving one jot or tittle from its requirements, but acting irrespective of human traditions and jurisdiction."{RH, October 1, 1895 par. 3}

The substitution of the precepts of men for the commandments of God has not ceased. Even among Christians are found institutions and usages that have no better foundation than the traditions of the fathers. Such institutions, resting upon mere human authority, have supplanted those of divine appointment. Men cling to their traditions, and revere their customs, and cherish hatred against those who seek to show them their error. . . . In place of the authority of the so-called fathers of the church, God bids us accept the word of the eternal Father, the Lord of heaven and earth.-Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, p. 398.

Does temper equal murder?

Murder begins in the heart, and epithets such as “raca” (empty head, stupid) are signs that there is hatred lurking within. The hatred that causes one person to hurl insults is the same hatred that causes another to commit murder. The attitude of the heart is the same, and it’s this attitude that makes a person morally guilty before God.

Jesus not only warns us against expressing unrighteous anger, which can lead to murder, but clearly commands that disparaging denunciations and name-calling be avoided. Such abusive words reveal the true intents of one’s heart and mind for which we will be held in judgment: “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve” (Jeremiah 17:10; cf. 1 Samuel 16:7; 1 Chronicles 28:9).

"The righteousness of Christ, as a pure white pearl, has no defect, no stain, no guilt. This righteousness may be ours. Salvation, with its blood-bought, inestimable treasures, is the pearl of great price. {FLB 111.5}
The thought that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, not because of any merit on our part, but as a free gift from God, is a precious thought. The enemy of God and man is not willing that this truth should be clearly presented; for he knows that if the people receive it fully, his power will be broken. {FLB 111.6}
Only the covering which Christ Himself has provided can make us meet to appear in God's presence. This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul. "I counsel thee," He says, "to buy of me . . . white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed. . . ." Revelation 3:18. {FLB 113.2}
By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {FLB 113.4}

While God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. {FLB 115.4}
The apostle James saw that dangers would arise in presenting the subject of justification by faith, and he labored to show that genuine faith cannot exist without corresponding works. The experience of Abraham is presented. "Seest thou," he says, "how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:22. Thus genuine faith does a genuine work in the believer. Faith and obedience bring a solid, valuable experience. {FLB 115.5}
Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally if we [would] press our way up the stream against the current of unbelief. {FLB 115.6}
The so-called faith that does not work by love and purify the soul will not justify any man. "Ye see," says the apostle, "how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24. Abraham believed God. How do we know that he believed? His works testified to the character of his faith, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. We need the faith of Abraham in our day, to lighten the darkness that gathers around us, shutting out the sweet sunlight of God's love, and dwarfing spiritual growth. Our faith should be prolific of good works; for faith without works is dead. {FLB 115

This lesson starts with Matthew 5:17. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

The verbs are the action words in a sentence. Here the verbs are "think" and "come" and "destroy" and "fulfill", so there is plenty of action. It is amazing to see what some of these action words are in the original Greek of the Gospel.

The lessons have shown us that the original word for "law" is "nomos". In Greek there is also a verb based on nomos which is "nomitzo" but here rendered "nomisete" which is the 2 aorist tense of the verb. The translators have conveniently translated the word with the English word "think" while in Greek it has a much richer meaning because in English there is no such word as "make it a law - or a custom - in your proclamation" The aorist tense which is rare in any other languages than ancient Greek, denotes that it is not only an action in the past, but something that is still effective.

Jesus had not come to make new laws or customs, but to reveal the deeper meaning of the basic laws and rules.

It's characteristic of SDA that they, extremely sensitive about and defensive of LAW AND ORDER (indeed, they are zealous for it), see every mention of LAW as being ultimately about the fourth commandment of the Decalogue and how righteous they are.

Genesis 2:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Compare the two Sabbath commandments in Exodus 20:8-11 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15. In what ways do these relate to the theory that the Sabbath is not only for Jews?

How would you answer this part from Sunday's study?

How would you answer this part from Sunday's study?

The Lost Meaning of the Seventh Day, by Sigve Tonstad, pages 183 and 197, are quoted in the teacher's edition of the current SS lesson, Christ and His Law, p. 63, chapter on the Sabbath. The point is that Sabbath healings are God's signature statement.

The most notable difference between the two commandments is the rationale for Sabbath observance. Exodus makes a direct reference to Genesis 2:3 as it elevates the fact that God both blessed and made holy the Sabbath day. On the other hand, Deuteronomy 5:15 points to Israel's divine deliverance from Egyptian bondage as being a rationale for Sabbath keeping. On the basis of the Deuteronomy text, many believe the Sabbath is only for the Jews. However, this argument totally ignores the fact that the Exodus text points to the Creation, when God established Sabbath for all humanity.

Furthermore, the Deuteronomy 5:15 reference to deliverance from Egypt is symbolic of the salvation we have in Christ. Hence, the Sabbath is a symbol not only of Creation but of Redemption, two themes that are linked with each other in the Bible (Heb. 1:1-3), Col. 1:13-20), John 1:1-14). Only by the fact that Jesus is our Creator could He also be our Redeemer, and the seventh-day sabbath is symbol of His work as both.

Paul then emphasizes that it is impossible for the "mind set on the flesh" to submit to God's law, or even to please Him (Rom. 8:7-8, NASB). This is obviously not a reference to the struggling individual of Romans 7:13-25, since that person serves the law of God "with my mind" (Rom. 7:25, NASB).

Instead, God chose to send His Son as a Substitute for us, in that He received the just penalty for sin as required by the law on behalf of all people.

We are more familiar with "carnal mind" for Rom 8:7. But given that Rom 7:25 says he serves the law of God with his mind, does the man of Rom 7:25 have a carnal mind?

Yes, of course, but he subdues it - "I allow not". Sinful flesh wars against the Spirit and mind of the new man, tempting him from within to indulge his innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. But while abiding in Jesus he does not sin, he cannot sin.

We are more familiar with "carnal mind" for Rom 8:7. But given that Rom 7:25 says he serves the law of God with his mind, does the man of Rom 7:25 have a carnal mind?

I wonder, then, what is sin: "while abiding in Jesus he does not sin, he cannot sin." Really?

Is the man of Rom 7 converted? He is definitely struggling against the flesh. He wants to do good, but there is a warring element in his members. Is this the condition of the unconverted? No. Only the converted wars against the flesh; there is no such conflict in the unconverted.

Rosangela, I believe Romans 7:14-25 describes thoroughly converted Christians who are successfully fighting the good fight of faith - resisting the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh. "I allow not." "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God."

There is such a conflict in the person who is in the process of conversion.
Does the converted person war against the flesh? Sometimes, but not in such a dramatic way as is presented here. Otherwise the converted person knows no victory.

"I am carnal, sold under sin" "For I do not do the good that I desire" "bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members" Does this describe the experience of the born-again, victorious Christian?

There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

Self will strive for the mastery and will be opposed to the work of bringing the life and thoughts, the will and affections, into subjection to the will of Christ. Self-denial and the cross stand all along in the pathway to eternal life, and, because of this, "few there be that find it." {2T 687.3}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

Rosangela, I believe Romans 7:14-25 describes thoroughly converted Christians who are successfully fighting the good fight of faith - resisting the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh. "I allow not." "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God."

James, it sounds like we agree. The lusts, desires, affections of the flesh tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus. While abiding in Jesus, while partaking of the divine nature, the Holy Spirit empowers us to recognize and resist the unholy temptations that come to mind.

Galatians
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1 Peter
2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Born-again believers, while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while partaking of the divine nature - do not sin and cannot sin. The Holy Spirit empowers them to recognize and resist the unholy temptations that come to mind - the lusts, desires, affections of the flesh that tempt them from within to be unlike Jesus.

I guess it depends on whether or not the born-again believer is consciously, deliberately choosing to abide in Jesus, to walk in the Spirit. Neglecting to abide in Jesus results in dethroning the Holy Spirit. Without the indwelling presence of the Holy, they cannot resist sin, self, or Satan. Without the Holy Spirit, they are as powerless as unbelievers. They are incapable of imitating the example of Jesus. They must continually, moment by moment, choose Jesus. Otherwise, by default, they fail and fall.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Rom 7:23 making me captive to the law of sin. Rom 8:2 has set you free from the law of sin. So your contention is that Paul is describing the same person in the two verses? Either you are captive or you are free. It cannot be both.

Take a look at these quotes. The first part of Romans 7 speaks about Paul's conversion:

The apostle Paul, in relating his experience, presents an important truth concerning the work to be wrought in conversion. He says, "I was alive without the law once,"--he felt no condemnation; "but when the commandment came," when the law of God was urged upon his conscience, "sin revived, and I died." [Romans 7:9.] Then he saw himself a sinner, condemned by the divine law. Mark, it was Paul, and not the law, that died. He says, further, "I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." [Romans 7:7.] "The commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." [Romans 7:10.] The law which promised life to the obedient, pronounced death upon the transgressor. "Wherefore," he says, "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." [Romans 7:12.] {4SP 297.1}


But here EGW seems to imply that in the second part of Romans 7 Paul is still speaking about his conversion:

It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}

James, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within people who are not consciously, continually choosing to abide in Jesus. Repentance restores the relationship sin severs. So, yes, it means the Holy Spirit is in and out. His location, however, does not undo rebirth or the maturation achieved while abiding in Jesus. Of course, if the Holy Spirit is forced out for a long period of time, ground gained is lost and rebirth is necessary.

James, it looks like we disagree on a fundamental truth.

Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation."

So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped. Then he said, "If now I have found grace in Your sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray, go among us, even though we are a stiff-necked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us as Your inheritance."

And He said: "Behold, I make a covenant. Before all your people I will do marvels such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among whom you are shall see the work of the Lord. For it is an awesome thing that I will do with you .... "

Influenced by the translation of 1 John 3:4 in the King James Version ("sin is the transgression of the law"), many restrict sin to the violation of the Ten Commandments alone. However, a more literal translation is: "sin is lawlessness" (NKJV) (anomia). Anything that goes against the principles of God is sin. Hence, although the Ten Commandments had not yet been formally revealed when Adam ate the forbidden fruit, he violated a command of God (Gen. 2:17) and was consequently guilty of sin. Indeed, it is through the sin of Adam that the curse of death has affected all generations of humanity (Rom. 5:12, 17, 21).

James, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within people who are not consciously, continually choosing to abide in Jesus. Repentance restores the relationship sin severs. So, yes, it means the Holy Spirit is in and out. His location, however, does not undo rebirth or the maturation achieved while abiding in Jesus. Of course, if the Holy Spirit is forced out for a long period of time, ground gained is lost and rebirth is necessary.

M: James, the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within people who are not consciously, continually choosing to abide in Jesus. Repentance restores the relationship sin severs. So, yes, it means the Holy Spirit is in and out. His location, however, does not undo rebirth or the maturation achieved while abiding in Jesus. Of course, if the Holy Spirit is forced out for a long period of time, ground gained is lost and rebirth is necessary.

D: Are you saying that the Holy Spirit actually enters us and leaves us like a yo yo each time we sin?

People who are abiding in Jesus do not sin. They cannot sin while abiding in Jesus. They must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus and then all they can do is sin. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell within them while they are thus divorced from Jesus.

Eph 4:30 AKJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed to the day of redemption.

How does Ephesians 4:30 fit into these last few posts?

James, neglecting or refusing to abide in Jesus results in sinning. The Holy Spirit does not forsake of abandon; instead, He works to impress, inspire and offers repentance.

This lesson indicates some have made wrong conclusions based on the KJV:

The commandments of God are comprehensive and far reaching; in a few words they unfold the whole duty of man. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. . . . Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Mark 12:30, 31). In these words the length and breadth, the depth and height, of the law of God is comprehended; for Paul declares, "Love is the fulfilling of the law" (Romans 13:10). The only definition we find in the Bible for sin is that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). The Word of God declares, "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). "There is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Romans 3:12). Many are deceived concerning the condition of their hearts. They do not realize that the natural heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. They wrap themselves about with their own righteousness, and are satisfied in reaching their own human standard of character; but how fatally they fail when they do not reach the divine standard, and of themselves they cannot meet the requirements of God. {1SM 320.1}

Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness: and sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3:4; 1881 edition)

Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3:4, current edition)

When one considers that the law is simply a transcript of God's character, "sin is anomia" teaches us that sin is anything against God's character.

People who are abiding in Jesus do not sin. They cannot sin while abiding in Jesus. They must neglect or refuse to abide in Jesus and then all they can do is sin. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell within them while they are thus divorced from Jesus.

James, neglecting or refusing to abide in Jesus results in sinning. The Holy Spirit does not forsake of abandon; instead, He works to impress, inspire and offers repentance.

It is through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that the Christian is enabled to resist temptation and to work righteousness. {Messenger, April 26, 1893 par. 4}

The soul must be surrendered to God, submitted to be purified and made fit for the indwelling of his Holy Spirit. {ST, November 20, 1884 par. 5}

The perfection of character which God requires is the fitting up of the whole being as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. {OFC 295.8}

My brother, if you open your heart to envy and evil surmising, the Holy Spirit cannot abide with you. {CCh 175.3}

If worldliness is allowed to come in, if we have no desire to pray, no desire to commune with Him who is the source of strength and wisdom, the Spirit will not abide with us. {OHC 154.4}

Those who are devoid of the Holy Spirit cannot be faithful watchmen upon the walls of Zion; for they are blind to the work that ought to be done, and do not give the trumpet a certain sound. {1888 1249.2}

If the heart is not kept under the control of God, if the Holy Spirit does not work unceasingly to refine and ennoble the character, the old habits will reveal themselves in the life. {CSA 21.5}

An indwelling Saviour is revealed by the words. But the Holy Spirit does not abide in the heart of him who is peevish if others do not agree with his ideas and plans. {CS 115.2}

God will not dwell with those who reject his truth; for all who disregard truth dishonor its Author. {HL 291.3}

Satan makes the idle man a partaker and co-worker in his schemes, and the Lord Jesus does not abide in the heart by faith. {FE 320.3}

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” Where there is no law there is no sin. What kind of world have we? What kind of world is it that will people heaven in their lawlessness? {1SAT 230.1}

Anything against God's character is a transgression of His law.

The lesson conflated "anomia" (transgression) with "anomos" (lawlessness). Their agenda was clear. They were simply trying to promote the modern versions and attack the KJV. The KJV, however, stands the test. It is solid. They can try to defeat it, and they will succeed in persuading many, but the facts are against them and can speak for themselves.

Don't believe me? Look up "anomia" in your Greek lexicon/dictionary. That is the word that appears in 1 John 3:4, correctly mentioned in the lesson, but incorrectly said to mean "lawlessness." They have twisted this one. Anomia and anomos are two different words, each with distinct, albeit related/similar, meanings.

The modern lack of ability to discriminate, even to call discrimination evil, seems to fulfill the Bible's words regarding those who will call evil good and good evil. We must study to show ourselves approved unto God, and "rightly divide" the Word of truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Dear SDA, unlike what you have been fed, the Ten Commandments as all the rest of the Jewish Old Testament laws as given by God served only to teach us how to express that love. Doing them and marking up a chalkboard of merits in no way commends you to God. Rather out of the sanctified heart will pour rivers of living water, and your life will bear the fruit of the Spirit abiding in you. You will naturally be righteous, falling yes, but ever rising, ever hopeful, ever longing for the glory to come. Love will be your food and drink and you will grow thereby.

Do not return to the vomit of pride in Sabbath-keeping again, please. For the end thereof is death. (Mark 3:1-6)

Have you ever wondered what is sin? It says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth ALSO the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." So there are sins which do not IMMEDIATELY appear to be infractions of the law, but ultimately are.

You have been fed the error that partial obedience is acceptable. God taught us how to love. Don't return to the vomit of pride in thinking man has come up with a better plan.

You have so many good things to offer, but your pride makes it stink. That just goes to show that knowledge tends to puff one up unless filled with the Holy Spirit. He didn't go away, but you have to start listening.

They do not appear to be infractions of the law because of the person's ignorance of the law. Every sin is covered by the Ten Commandments.

Thayer's definition of anomia:

1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it

For example, if you asked your sibling to do something for you, to which he agreed, yet reneged on his promise, he has sinned against you. That has nothing to do with the Decalogue.

Nothing? NOTHING?

NOTHING? Your example fits the ninth.

1. Thayer doesn't know what he is talking about.

Every sin is NOT covered by the Ten Commandments. For example, if you asked your sibling to do something for you, to which he agreed, yet reneged on his promise, he has sinned against you. That has nothing to do with the Decalogue. For him it is a sin, and a sin before you. Similarly, if you deliberately jumped a red light while driving, you are guilty of sin against society. There is no law in the Scriptures against jumping a red light, but by being granted a license to drive, you entered into an agreement to obey all the traffic laws of the land. You have sinned against the Board. That has nothing to do with the Decalogue.

Did you read Mark 3:1-6? I don't think so. And lest you be hasty in your self-righteous judgement, consider 1 John 2:1, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. AND IF ANY MAN SIN, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

I've never read anything so absurd! How long have you studied Greek? So a Greek scholar, who wrote a Greek lexicon, doesn't know what he is talking about?

I've never read anything so absurd! How long have you studied Greek? So a Greek scholar, who wrote a Greek lexicon, doesn't know what he is talking about?

Gordon, Luther translated the Bible to German. His Greek and his Hebrew didn't lead him to accept the Sabbath. Yet you can't say he was lost, neither can you say his Bible version can't be trusted.
As I said, if you can't trust Greek scholars, then you must be able to read the Bible in Greek - and the Greek used in the Bible is a dead language, so you will have to learn it with a Greek scholar.

I've never read anything so absurd! How long have you studied Greek? So a Greek scholar, who wrote a Greek lexicon, doesn't know what he is talking about?

Joseph Henry Thayer (November 7, 1828—November 26, 1901), US biblical scholar, was born in Boston, Massachusetts. ... Beginning in 1870, Thayer was a member of the American Bible Revision Committee and recording secretary of the New Testament company (working on the Revised Version). Thayer's chief works were his translation of Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (1886; revised 1889) as A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, and his New Testament Bibliography (1890). Thayer spent 25 years working on his Lexicon, and made thousands of revisions from Grimm's Wilke's Clavis. Rather unfortunately, Thayer's Lexicon became obsolete quickly.

Gustav Adolf Deissmann's work with the Egyptian papyri was soon to revolutionize New Testament and Koine Greek Lexicography with the publication of his: [1] Bible Studies: Contributions Chiefly from Papyri and Inscriptions to the History of the Language, the Literature, and the Religion of Hellenistic Judaism and Primitive Christianity published in 1901 (2nd edition 1909) and also, [2] Light from the Ancient East: the New Testament Illustrated by Recently Discovered Texts of the Graeco-Roman World London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1910.

These books and similar ones that followed helped confirm and sometimes correct inadequate definitions of many words in the Greek New Testament. With this new and valuable information for studying the Greek of the New Testament, Thayer's Lexicon became a victim of history, being published less than a decade before this papyri revolution.

In February 1891 Thayer published a lecture in which he expressed disagreement with the position of Biblical inerrancy, asserting that his own acceptance of various errors of history and science in the Bible did not materially detract from his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity.

---- Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer

Not fulfilling a promise is lying, wherher to a sister or to society; it's bearing a false witness against (to the detriment of) your neighbor. Besides, you are robbing them from the loyalty/veracity/honesty you owe to them as a fellow human being. It's easy (for those who can see the far-reaching claims of the law) to see that these are transgressions of the law.

There's no problem with the verses. The problem is your being obnoxious and arrogant. That says much more about your teachings than the verses you cite in vain. If someone is wrong, just point it out and we can learn truth. But if you stand as an accuser of the brethren, we just learn that you're a jerk. It's up to you what you want us to learn.

Be careful

I gave two examples. The first one, you answered. What of the second?

Returning to your answer to the first example: Reneging on a promise is NOT "bearing false witness against your neighbour"; and neither is it lying. You are just hell-bent on shoe-horning the action into the ninth commandment. Rather, it is causing someone to hope in vain.

Again, I direct you to Mark 3:1-6.

"Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 'Teacher, WHICH IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW?'

Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.'" (Mat. 22:35-40 cf. Mark 3:1-6)

James, Thayer's lexicon became obsolete because of new archaeological evidence which brought light upon some words, but obviously this is not the case with anomia, whose meaning has always been well known.
About the Bible, it's inerrant in religious matters, but it may have small incorrections in the realm of history and science.

Gordon, Luther translated the Bible to German. His Greek and his Hebrew didn't lead him to accept the Sabbath. Yet you can't say he was lost, neither can you say his Bible version can't be trusted.
As I said, if you can't trust Greek scholars, then you must be able to read the Bible in Greek - and the Greek used in the Bible is a dead language, so you will have to learn it with a Greek scholar.

The ten commandments can be summarized in the two commandments of love to God and love to men, and these two can be summarized in just one word - love. This doesn't mean that love makes the two commandments unnecessary, or that the two make the ten unnecessary. After the fall, specific sins had to be spelled out as violations of the law of love. It doesn't make sense to command unfallen creatures to not kill, to not steal, to not commit adultery, etc., but it does make sense to say this clearly to sinful creatures who would have a deadened sensitivity to sin and a twisted notion of love.

James, both examples are similar, as I said.


Of course breaking a promise is lying, of course it's saying something which will bring disadvantage or damage to the other person because of its nonfulfillment. Please read Numbers 23:19 and Hebrews 6:18.

Is asking that SDA do "NOT return to the vomit of pride in Sabbath-keeping", making myself an accuser of the brethren? Why do you refuse to heed the salient message in Mark 3:1-6?

Who proclaimed the Sabbath truth in Luther's day?

"I find from a passage in Erasmus that at the early period of the Reformantion when he wrote, there were Sabbatarians in Bohemia, who not only kept the seventh day, but were said to be...scrupulous in resting on it." Literature of the Sabbath Question, Cox, Vol. II, pp. 201, 202

He argued repeatedly that those who kept the "Jewish Sabbath" should also practice cir­cumcision. He said, "If Carlstadt writes more about the Sabbath, Sunday must give way and the Sabbath—that is, Saturday—must be kept holy. He would really in all things make Jews out of us and require circumcision." Luther quoted in this connection Galatians 5:3, "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

Luther believed that the Sabbath must be kept, but that Christians were free to observe any day as the Sabbath. It is difficult to assert precisely what Carlstadt's beliefs and practices were. "We do not know whether Carlstadt ever took a positive stand for the seventh-day Sab­bath. But we do know that many groups of Sabbath keepers were in existence in various places of Central Europe after he began to write on Sabbath observance." 2 There were Christians who kept the seventh-day Sabbath in Luther's time, and he referred to them on several occasions. In discussing them, he was so convinced that the seventh-day Sabbath was not the true day of rest that he went so far as to say that even the patriarchs did not keep the Sabbath.' Concerning the Sabbathkeepers, or "Sabbathers," Luther said this:

"We find in our day in Moravia a foolish rabble folk that call themselves the Sabbathers. They con­tend that we must, according to the Jewish regula­tions and customs, keep the Sabbath; and perhaps they will yet in time lay a similar requirement for circumcision.

"There are in Austria and Moravia, as it is re­ported to me, people at this time that in Jewish manner keep the Sabbath and compel circumcision. If these people come in contact with people that are not properly instructed in God's Word, they will do great damage."
Martin Luther, "Auslegung von 1. Mose" (Genesis), Schriften (Walch ed.), vol. 1, cols. 873, 1009-1010.

Those who judge that by the authority of the church the observance of the Lord's day instead of the Sabbath day was ordained as a thing necessary, do greatly err. Scripture has abrogated the Sabbath day; for it teaches that since the gospel has been revealed, all the ceremonies of the old law can be omitted. And yet, because it was necessary to appoint a certain day that the people might know when they ought to come together, it appears that the church [the apostles] designated the Lord's day for this purpose; and this day seems to have been chosen all the more for this additional reason, that mess might have an example of Christian liberty and might know that the keeping neither of the Sabbath nor of any other day is necessary.
Augsburg Confession, Article 28

You may want to begin your studies here: Biblical hermeneutics

Or you may want to start reading the Bible for yourself. You have a very naive approach to the text.

You are unduly obsessed with the letter of the Decalogue. When the lawyer asked him which was THE GREAT commandment in the Law, Jesus did not quote the Decalogue, nor did he point to it. He said rather, "YOU SHALL LOVE,"

In the passages that you quoted, we are being assured of the things God has promised. That has nothing to do with having reneged, but with making the promise (hence the reference to God not lying).

I have, personally, seen a number of errors in Thayer's perspective, and I don't put much trust in his commentary.

And how could Thayer or anyone else have read about the Sabbath in a newspaper? Please, remember that the Advent Movement had nothing to do with the Sabbath. The Sabbath truth was discovered some years later.

THE NAME OF MRS. ELLEN G. WHITE IS WIDELY KNOWN IN CONSEQUENCE OF HER WRITINGS AND HER PUBLIC LABORS AS A SPEAKER IN NINETEEN OF THE STATES AND IN THE CANADAS. HER BOOKS IN PRINT AMOUNT TO ABOUT FOUR THOUSAND PAGES WHICH HAVE HAD AN EXTENSIVE CIRCULATION. AND HER LABORS AS A SPEAKER COVER A PERIOD OF MORE THAN THIRTY YEARS. BUT IN THE LAST TEN YEARS THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD, IN HARMONY WITH THE WISHES OF THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM SHE HAS BEEN CONNECTED, HAS MOVED HER OUT TO SPEAK TO THE CROWDS AT OUR ANNUAL CONFERENCES AND CAMP-MEETINGS IN THE SEVERAL STATES WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN HELD. NEWSPAPER REPORTERS HAVE GIVEN SKETCHES OF HER ADDRESSES, AND HAVE MADE STATEMENTS OF THEIR EFFECTS UPON AUDIENCES WHICH HAVE GIVEN HER PROMINENCE IN THE MINDS OF THOUSANDS WHO HAVE NEITHER READ HER BOOKS NOR HEARD HER SPEAK. AND THE FACT WHICH IS MADE PROMINENT IN HER BOOKS THAT MRS. WHITE HAS RECEIVED THE SENTIMENTS SHE HAS TAUGHT BY DIRECT REVELATION FROM GOD, HAS MADE HER A PERSON OF PECULIAR INTEREST TO ALL THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED HER AS ONE THUS FAVORED OF THE LORD. AND, ON THE OTHER HAND, PERSONS HAVE NOT BEEN WANTING AMONG THOSE WHO REJECT HER TESTIMONY AND HER WORK, TO MENTION HER NAME UNFAVORABLY THROUGH THE PRESS, AND IN THE SPIRIT OF PERSECUTION SEEK TO EXCITE PREJUDICE AGAINST HER. THIS, HOWEVER, HAS SERVED AS AN ADVERTISEMENT, AND HAS GREATLY INCREASED THE DESIRE OF THE PEOPLE TO HEAR HER SPEAK, AND TO READ HER BOOKS. {ST, January 6, 1876 par. 1}

Joseph Henry Thayer (November 7, 1828—November 26, 1901), US biblical scholar, was born in Boston, Massachusetts.

He studied at the Boston Latin School, and graduated from Harvard in 1850. Subsequently he studied theology at the Harvard Divinity School, and graduated from Andover Theological Seminary in 1857.

He served as a minister in Quincy, in 1859–64 in Salem, Massachusetts, and in 1862–63 was chaplain of the 40th Massachusetts Volunteers during the US Civil War. He was professor of sacred literature at Andover Seminary in 1864–82, and in 1884 succeeded Ezra Abbot as Bussey professor of New Testament criticism in the Harvard Divinity School. He died soon after his resignation from the Bussey professorship.

Beginning in 1870, Thayer was a member of the American Bible Revision Committee and recording secretary of the New Testament company (working on the Revised Version). Thayer's chief works were his translation of Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (1886; revised 1889) as A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, and his New Testament Bibliography (1890). Thayer spent 25 years working on his Lexicon, and made thousands of revisions from Grimm's Wilke's Clavis.
...
In February 1891 Thayer published a lecture in which he expressed disagreement with the position of Biblical inerrancy, asserting that his own acceptance of various errors of history and science in the Bible did not materially detract from his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity.

Luther and his co-laborers accomplished a noble work for God; but, coming as they did from the Roman Church, having themselves believed and advocated her doctrines, it was not to be expected that they would discern all these errors. It was their work to break the fetters of Rome and to give the Bible to the world; yet there were important truths which they failed to discover, and grave errors which they did not renounce. Most of them continued to observe the Sunday with other papal festivals. They did not, indeed, regard it as possessing divine authority, but believed that it should be observed as a generally accepted day of worship. There were some among them, however, who honored the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. ... {SR 353.2}

GC, I wish I could understand yours and Gordon's viewpoint. Do you mean you will only believe a dictionary (which is not even a theological dictionary), if it's written by an SDA? I find this strange, because EGW's personal and office library was largely composed of non-SDA authors, many of them her contemporaries.

Commentaries sometimes must be taken with a grain of salt, but lexicons? There are no lexicons written by SDAs. If you can't trust a lexicon, you can't read the Bible in the original languages - not even if your mother tongue is Greek or Hebrew, for ancient Greek and Hebrew are very different from modern Greek and Hebrew. For those who have studied Greek and Hebrew, mere versions of the Bible are not enough, and lexicons are very useful tools.
As to Ellen White, she not only read but also quoted many Sundaykeepers - and many of them were her contemporaries. She had in her library, for instance, the Analytical Concordance of Robert Young, a biblical scholar (1822-1888). Surprisingly, she had in her library many books written by Brooke F. Westcott.
I didn't understand the reaction against Thayer. By the way, the definition he gave of the word anomia is biblically correct.

By the way, the definition he gave of the word anomia is biblically correct.

Lexicons are the new battlefield.

As for "anomia," it means: "transgression of the law," not "lawlessness." I could see phrasing it as "against the law." That might be nearly the same as "transgression." But "lawlessness" is too ambiguous.

Consider: "And because iniquity G458 shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." The "iniquity" here is "anomia." But it is NOT telling us that the love of many will grow cold for lack of laws!

#4. that we who believe will not be judged.

#5. that, being full of LOVE, we naturally do not sin.

#6. b) it remains forever among His people, for those who LOVE HIM.

The very foundation of THE THRONE OF OUR GOD IS LOVE (Rev. 22:1), not the Decalogue, not legalism and certainly not fear

Furthermore, I don't know that any student will conclude that "hamartia is anomia" means "sin is without law" given the Biblical context. Even in English, I don't remember ever seeing "lawlessness" used to mean "without law;" rather, it means "being against the law."

.
1. that the Law of Christ is the LAW OF LOVE,
2. that the Ten Commandments (as all of the OT) were given to teach LOVE,
3. that Christ revealed that LOVE, for our example,
4. that we who believe will not be judged (having passed from the condemnation of death to the hope of eternal life through our faith by the grace of God),
5. that, being full of LOVE, we naturally do not sin, hence the commandment that "Ye love one another as I have loved you" and again, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another",
6. that specifically about the Sabbath:

a) it was given as a safeguard against forgetfulness of our Creator, and
b) it remains forever among His people, for those who LOVE HIM.

The very foundation of THE THRONE OF OUR GOD IS LOVE (Rev. 22:1), not the Decalogue, not legalism and certainly not fear (2 Cor. 13:11, 1 John 4:17-18).

In the context of this week's lesson, how did Jesus relate to the law given in the OT?

"You have heard it said.... but I say....." Was Jesus throwing out the lessons He had given to man? Did He realize He had made a mistake and so gave us different instructions on how to love?

Or was He changing, not His mind, but the misunderstandings of man regarding His will?

In the context of this week's lesson, how did Jesus relate to the law given in the OT?

"You have heard it said.... but I say....." Was Jesus throwing out the lessons He had given to man? Did He realize He had made a mistake and so gave us different instructions on how to love?

Or was He changing, not His mind, but the misunderstandings of man regarding His will?

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {1SM 21.1}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}

Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 Has in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Mark 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! Truth came forth from the lips of Jesus, uncorrupted with human philosophy. His words were from heaven, such as mortal lips had never spoken nor mortal ears ever heard. His heart was an altar on which burned the flames of infinite love. Goodness, mercy, and love were enthroned in the breast of the Son of God. He set up his tabernacle in the midst of our human encampment, pitched his tent by the side of the tents of men, that he might dwell among them and make them familiar with his divine character and love. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}

All will be judged, but believers will not be condemned. Everyone lives and dies, then the judgement. But there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Even though we can be filled with love, we cannot say that "we naturally do not sin." In fact, if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us. We can say that we supernaturally do not sin, but even that must be tempered. Yes, we can love each other, but it's not a sinless love.

God's kingdom is founded on love. God gave us the Decalogue to teach us love. We agree so far. But to say that the foundation is love and not the Decalogue presumes that they contradict. To claim to love while disobeying the law is an empty claim.

In the context of this week's lesson, how did Jesus relate to the law given in the OT?

"You have heard it said.... but I say....." Was Jesus throwing out the lessons He had given to man? Did He realize He had made a mistake and so gave us different instructions on how to love?

Or was He changing, not His mind, but the misunderstandings of man regarding His will?

LESSON 9
Christ, the Law and the Gospel

Memory Text: For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (John 1:17, NKJV).

The law is an important part of the topic of Christ our righteousness. Yet it is often a controversial subject. There are some who speak little of Christ, while they spend much time preaching the law and profess to honor God's law. There are others who speak much of believing in Christ but to a large extent reject the law spoken by His own voice on Mount Sinai.

We must preach CHRIST in the law, for only this will bring home the truth of the wonderful gift of salvation from sin, and give power and nourishment in the message that will feed the spiritual life and growth of the people.


So what does it mean -- the law came through Moses?

It does NOT mean Moses originated the law, for we know God Himself spoke the commands from Mount Sinai.
God Himself wrote that law on tables of stone with His own finger.

Yet it was Moses who brought those tablets of stone down to the people. But sadly, for many it remained only the commandments written on the tablets of stone.

but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ

We can give a fine talk on the commandments of God, but it will not accomplish a truly reformed life, UNLESS Christ dwells in the heart and writes His magnified law upon our hearts and minds.

Through the presence of Christ in our lives and thoughts, His law is written upon the fleshly tablets of our hearts thus transforming our very lives.

Thus Christ, the gospel, His law, are intermingled as one in the Christ Our Righteousness. When we receive Christ, we receive righteousness, we receive His law magnified by the law of love, we receive godly love.

You're confused. Either it was inspired (without fault) or not (susceptible to errors). Make up your mind.

Do you have eternal life?

He who truly loves cannot and does not sin. Hence the commandment to love. Have you ever been in love?

"Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, WHICH IS NOT LAWFUL TO EAT EXCEPT FOR THE PRIESTS, and also gave some to those who were with him?" (Mark 2:25-26) Was Abiathar guiltless in this matter?

It seems the lesson is implying that the law can be fulfilled BY us if we have grace. Is anyone else getting the same thing?

The quarterly asks: John 1:17 states that grace and truth originated with Jesus Christ. Using that text, many people place the law in opposition to the grace and truth. Why is this a false dichotomy? In what ways do the law and grace and truth all work together to reveal to us the character of God as seen in the plan of salvation?

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I think the lesson is saying that grace is both God's unmerited gift of eternal life and God's enabling us to do His will. It says:
"Grace not only frees us from the condemnation of the law, but it enables us to keep the law in the way that we are called to do."

Unfortunately the thread title is misleading.
Christ came to vindicate His Father's Law.

"Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared
in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts
of His Father's law." (Patriarchs & Prophets 366)
___________________________________

I remember reading that, and I wasn't comfortable with it. Does grace enable US to KEEP the law as GOD requires? Or does grace enable us to RECEIVE CHRIST'S acceptable obedience as ours? Yes, grace teaches us to live godly lives, but is our godliness acceptable as-is?

What did you think of the previous lesson on God's law vs Christ's law? Do you believe they are different? Or is Christ's law the same as His Father's law?

I remember reading that, and I wasn't comfortable with it. Does grace enable US to KEEP the law as GOD requires? Or does grace enable us to RECEIVE CHRIST'S acceptable obedience as ours? Yes, grace teaches us to live godly lives, but is our godliness acceptable as-is?

The leason seems to swing from one side to the other, rather than keeping an even keel.

What did you think of the previous lesson on God's law vs Christ's law? Do you believe they are different? Or is Christ's law the same as His Father's law?

Isn't it both? Grace enables us to receive Christ's acceptable obedience as ours (justification - pardon - it doesn't involve our works) and it enables us to keep the law as God requires (sanctification - it involves our works). Of course our imperfect obedience in sanctification is also covered by Christ's perfect obedience to be acceptable (as per the famous quote: "O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ." {AG 154.5}), but it is then considered perfect - as God requires.
WDYT?

Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?

Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?

Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?

Grace enables us to obey, but it is an imperfect obedience that requires the covering of Christ's righteousness. If we have grace, we obey, but our obedience does not meet the law's perfect claims. Rather, Christ's perfect obedience meets those claims as we abide in Him. Therefore, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled IN us, not BY us; by Christ's work FOR us, not His work IN and THROUGH us.

How does that sound?

Christ became the sinless sacrifice for a guilty race, making men prisoners of hope, so that through repentance toward God because they had broken His holy law, and through faith in Christ as their Substitute, Surety, and righteousness, they might be brought back to loyalty to God and to obedience to His holy law. {FW 117.3}

As the sinner, drawn by the power of Christ, approaches the uplifted cross, and prostrates himself before it, there is a new creation. A new heart is given him. He becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus. Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require. God Himself is "the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. And "whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30. {COL 162.4}

That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight. God help us to render to Him all His law requires. We cannot do this without that faith that brings Christ's righteousness into daily practice. {2SM 380.4}

God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. {6BC 1072.8}

God could not bring down his law to meet the standard of wicked men, neither could man, fallen by sin, meet the demands of the law by a blameless character and life. But by faith in Christ the sinner could be cleansed from his guilt, and he enabled to render obedience to the law of his Maker. {LP 242.2}

Christ has paid all that man owes to God from the beginning of his life. Sin is the transgression of the law, and through Christ man must now render perfect obedience to that law. By his righteousness of active obedience, Christ clothes me with his righteousness, in order that I shall not continue in sin, but perfect a character after the similitude of Christ. {HM, November 1, 1897 par. 10}

From a sense of thorough conviction, you can then testify to men of the immutable character of the law manifested by the death of Christ on the cross, the malignant nature of sin, and the righteousness of God in justifying the believer in Jesus, on condition of his future obedience to the statutes of God's government in heaven and earth. {RH, April 24, 1888 par. 15}

Christ bore the penalty that would have fallen upon the transgressor; and through faith the helpless, hopeless sinner becomes a partaker of the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust. Christ imputes his perfection and righteousness to the believing sinner when he does not continue in sin, but turns from transgression to obedience of the commandments. {RH, May 23, 1899 par. 8}

In everything Christ sought first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and that which he did he commands his followers to do. This example he gave to the human race that they might in his strength render to God the obedience he requires, and in the end present themselves perfect before his throne. He was one with the Father. His life was a fulfilling of the law, a continual obedience to God's commands. {RH, October 2, 1900 par. 14}

God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

In Christ we are as if we had suffered the penalty we have incurred. In Christ I am as if I had obeyed, and rendered perfect obedience to the law, which we can not perfectly obey without Christ imparts to us His merits and His righteousness. {PUR, September 4, 1913 par. 3}

Man's obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ's righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help. {AA 532.1}

Every soul may say: "By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness, which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ, and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." {NL 27.2}

Knowing himself to be a sinner, a transgressor of the holy law of God, he looks to the perfect obedience of Christ, to His death upon Calvary for the sins of the world; and he has the assurance that he is justified by faith in the merit and sacrifice of Christ. He realizes that the law was obeyed in his behalf by the Son of God, and that the penalty of transgression cannot fall upon the believing sinner. The active obedience of Christ clothes the believing sinner with the righteousness that meets the demands of the law. {SD 240.4}

Christ perfected a righteous character here upon the earth, not on His own account, for His character was pure and spotless, but for fallen man. His character He offers to man if he will accept it. The sinner, through repentance of his sins, faith in Christ, and obedience to the perfect law of God, has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; it becomes his righteousness, and his name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. He becomes a child of God, a member of the royal family. {3T 371.2}

Only the covering which Christ Himself has provided can make us meet to appear in God's presence. This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul. "I counsel thee," He says, "to buy of Me . . . white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." Revelation 3:18. {COL 311.3}

This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life--the same condition that was required of Adam before his fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden--harmony with God's law, which is holy, just, and good. {COL 391.2}

True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares: "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." And he prays: "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly." 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 5:23. The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for His disciples: "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth." John 17:17. And Paul teaches that believers are to be "sanctified by the Holy Ghost." Romans 15:16. What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told His disciples: "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." John 16:13. And the psalmist says: "Thy law is the truth." By the word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in His law. And since the law of God is "holy, and just, and good," a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy. Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says: "I have kept My Father's commandments." "I do always those things that please Him." John 15:10; 8:29. The followers of Christ are to become like Him--by the grace of God to form characters in harmony with the principles of His holy law. This is Bible sanctification. {GC 469.2}

What does this mean: "AND of His fullness we have all received, AND grace for grace" (John 1:16)? What does "AND grace for grace" mean?

John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

Are you saying that the work through us and in us is imperfect such that we will only give imperfect obedience? Is the covering of Christ a cloak for iniquity?

"Obedience and submission to God's requirements are the conditions given by the inspired apostle by which we become children of God, members of the royal family." -- Ellen White.

The Bible is clear that only the obedient are called children of God. The disobedient are children of the devil. Therefore, the above statement cannot be referring to Christ's obedience, for then everyone would be a child of God.

Just a point of clarification. Obviously, there is a certain "obedience" which must be our own.

"By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in His merits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with His righteousness, which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent. All is of Christ, and all the glory, honor, and majesty are to be given to the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." {NL 27.2}

"By His perfect obedience He has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me.

How is Christ our substitute?

Christ did not obey the law for anybody.

Romans 5:18-21 AKJV
18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came on all men to justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin has reigned to death, even so might grace reign through righteousness to eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, there is definitely obedience that is our own. But we owe even that to Jesus, as it is His imparted righteousness. And it still does not entitle us to heaven, as that is by His imputed righteousness.

I hope to spend some time this week discussing the role of obedience in the covenants.

The sinner, through repentance of his sins, faith in Christ, and obedience to the perfect law of God, has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; it becomes his righteousness, and his name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. He becomes a child of God, a member of the royal family. {3T 371.2}

I concur.

Christ imputes his perfection and righteousness to the believing sinner when he does not continue in sin, but turns from transgression to obedience of the commandments.

God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven. {RH, June 4, 1895 par. 7}

Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 4}

In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.

However, if we are His children, we are heirs to the promises of the covenant. Therefore, our task is to be His children.

WDYT?

1 John
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

"Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." Holiness does not consist in profession, but in doing the will of our Father which is in heaven. The crying of "Lord! Lord!" will not secure for us an entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Let no man cheat his soul with the delusion that he is saved simply because he can talk of faith and repentance. There are those who exclaim, "I am saved! I am saved!" who yet walk contrary to the doctrine of Christ. The word of God declares, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Obedience must be rendered to all God's commandments in this world before a soul will be chosen as a safe member of the kingdom of heaven, one of the royal children of God. Mrs. E. G. White. {YI, February 10, 1898 par. 6}

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3}

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. . . . For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:24-26). It is essential to have faith in Jesus, and to believe you are saved through Him; but there is danger in taking the position that many do take in saying, "I am saved." Many have said: "You must do good works, and you will live"; but apart from Christ no one can do good works. Many at the present day say, "Believe, only believe, and live." Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

His commandments and grace are adapted to our necessities, and without them we cannot be saved, do what we may. Acceptable obedience He requires. The offering of goods, or any service, will not be accepted without the heart. The will must be brought into subjection. The Lord requires of you a greater consecration to Him and a greater separation from the spirit and influence of the world. {2T 169.1}

Faith does not make void the law, and though there are persons who insist that through faith in Christ they are freed from obligation to keep the law, yet the teaching of prophets and apostles contradicts their position. "Faith without works [obedience] is dead." Men's characters are estimated according to their works. James says, "Show me thy faith without thy works [if it were possible], and I will show thee my faith by my works." Faith in the great plan of redemption without corresponding works is not reckoned as faith. Christ our Redeemer did not suffer the penalty of the law for our sins in order to deliver us from obligation to keep God's commandments. Christ suffered the penalty of the law, which was death, in order to give to man another trial, to provide for him another probation, and allot to him another opportunity of proving loyal to the authority of God. Every soul is to be tested, for he is held responsible for obedience to the divine law, and, although Christ has died for man's transgression, those who continue in disobedience will suffer the penalty of their sin. The condition upon which men will be offered the benefits of salvation is through repentance toward God, because of transgression of his holy law, faith in Christ, by which he receives power from on high to become an obedient subject of the government of God. Those who would be saved must take Christ as their personal Saviour, and become not only hearers, but doers of his words. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {ST, September 24, 1894 par. 9}

we can not obey unless we have Christ's righteousness.

Therefore, Christ's righteousness is obtained by our own obedience.

In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.
we can not obey unless we have Christ's righteousness.

we can not obey unless we have Christ's righteousness.

You have things out of their proper order. If what you said were true, it would mean that at least one of the following must also be true:

1) all sinners have Christ's righteousness; or
2) we are unable to obey through the God-given freedom of choice and exercise of our will unless/until we have Christ's righteousness.

This robe [spotless character], woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. [yet is green really saying we can keep the law by ourselves??? He has said we need to obey before we can get Christ's righteousness. Perhaps green is confused by the terms obey and submit, who knows?] When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

You wrote - "Our imperfect obedience is required, but not sufficient." You applied the expression - "imperfect obedience" to the results of abiding in Jesus. Here is how Ellen White used the phrase:

Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 4}

That's why we don't gain heaven by OUR obedience.

True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. {AA 565.1}

Only for those who return to their allegiance to God, only for those who obey the law that they have violated, will the blood of Christ avail. Christ will never become a party to sin. (MR 900.37).

Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. {Ev 308.4}

The moment the sinner believes in Christ, he stands in the sight of God uncondemned; for the righteousness of Christ is his: Christ's perfect obedience is imputed to him. But he must co-operate with divine power, and put forth his human effort to subdue sin, and stand complete in Christ. {FE 429.3}

In perfect obedience to His holy will, we are to manifest adoration, love, cheerfulness, and praise, and thus honor and glorify God. {AG 58.5}

Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. {AG 138.4}

But by perfect obedience to the requirements of the law, man is justified. {HP 146.4}

We would invite all to come, all to abide in Christ, to advance daily in the perfection of character by abiding in Christ. As they do this, they find that rest that can come only through perfect obedience. {HP 277.4}

This is true sanctification, for sanctification consists in the cheerful performance of daily duties in perfect obedience to the will of God. {ML 250.5}

Did you ignore the It is written?

Do you know what Forgiveness is? There are two Green word translated into English as forgive. Do you know what they are and what the difference between them is?

God does not hold anything against any one. God is forgiveness (Charizomai) personified. Sinners that parish, will parish forgiven by God. What we need is forgiveness (Aphiemi) as in 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The whole Talmud consists of 63 tractates, and in standard print is over 6,200 pages long. It is written in Tannaitic Hebrew and Aramaic. The Talmud contains the teachings and opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including Halakha (law), Jewish ethics, philosophy, customs, history, lore and many other topics. The Talmud is the basis for all codes of Jewish law and is much quoted in rabbinic literature.

Do YOU need to know the difference between "Charizomai" and "Aphiemi" in order to forgive someone? Do YOU think God consults his Greek lexicon before deciding whether to "Charizomai" you or to "Aphiemi" you?

But asygo, green said, "In order to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, we must first obey His law.". He can't be wrong, can he???

The sinner, through repentance of his sins, faith in Christ, and obedience to the perfect law of God, has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; it becomes his righteousness, and his name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. He becomes a child of God, a member of the royal family. {3T 371.2}

Meanings can get lost in translation.

Heaven is gained by our acceptance of someone else's obedience, character, life. We are heirs of the promise, not earners.

...Jesus will not commission holy angels to extricate those who make no effort to help themselves. {1T 345.2}

...Every effort within their power must be put forth to avert destruction; for God helps those only who help themselves. {LP 267.1}

...The Lord helps those who seek to help themselves; but when men will not take special pains to follow out the mind and will of God, how can he work with them? Let us act our part, working out our salvation with fear and trembling.... {GCB, May 30, 1909 par. 14}

... For the Lord always helps those who help themselves. The Lord is acquainted with all the circumstances, and will work for those who do their very best. ... {RH, September 27, 1887 par. 11}

But to pray in Christ's name means much. It means that we are to accept His character, manifest His spirit, and work His works. The Saviour's promise is given on condition. "If ye love Me," He says, "keep My commandments." He saves men, not in sin, but from sin; and those who love Him will show their love by obedience. {DA 668.2}

I'm not wrong on this one, APL, because Mrs. White said it. If it's wrong, take this up with her and with God who inspired her.

Let me quote that one again for your review.



Mrs. White lists three prerequisites to receiving Christ's imputed righteousness. Obedience is one of them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I'm not wrong on this one, APL, because Mrs. White said it.

Our obedience may never be perfect, and can never save us--for all have sinned and come under the penalty of death as a result--but when we do all in our power, God will then work in our behalf to save us from sin and destruction.

The love of Jesus and the love of money cannot dwell in the same heart. {CS 157.3}

God cannot dwell in your heart or thoughts where self rules supreme. {DG 122.2}

Envy, malice, jealousy, and distrust are cherished, and Jesus cannot dwell where these traits are entertained. {GW92 459.2}

If suspicions and envy and jealousies and evil surmisings are cherished, these will exclude the blessing of God, for Jesus cannot dwell in a heart where these things are cherished. The soul temple must be cleansed of every defilement. {RC 277.2}

Selfishness must be put away; for the love of God cannot dwell in the heart where self is enshrined. The inclinations which war against the holy principles of purity and godliness must be wholly given up. {RH, December 1, 1896 par. 14}

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

The Spirit of God does not propose to do our part, either in the willing or the doing. This is the work of the human agent in cooperating with the divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God's will, the grace of Christ stands to cooperate with the human agent; but it will not be the substitute to do our work independent of our resolving and decidedly acting. {2MCP 691.3}

To make God's grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to co-operate. The Holy Spirit works in us, that we may work out our own salvation. This is the practical lesson the Holy Spirit is striving to teach us. "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." {MYP 147.2}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

We can not obey on our own. We have not the power. We can only obey because of what Christ does for us and to us. I hear you saying that we can obey on our own. If you are not saying that, then pardon me.

When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. {DA 324.1}

He is not at all saying we can obey without Jesus' supernatural aid. He is saying the following:

Again, the idea that the fruit of Jesus' supernatural assistance yields imperfect obedience is not supported in the Bible or in the SOP.

I have an idea. How about everyone shut down their SOP software and let's just go to the Bible? I saw somehing in Galatians that I had never really noticed before, and I would like to get a better handle on the Scriptures before going into the SOP. I want to use the SOP as a guide to my studies, not as its foundation.

1 Tim. 1:9 Who has saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I would like that you affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

I have an idea. How about everyone shut down their SOP software and let's just go to the Bible? I saw somehing in Galatians that I had never really noticed before, and I would like to get a better handle on the Scriptures before going into the SOP. I want to use the SOP as a guide to my studies, not as its foundation.

M: Again, the idea that the fruit of Jesus' supernatural assistance yields imperfect obedience is not supported in the Bible or in the SOP.

A: See COL 331 quote above...

This robe [spotless character], woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. [yet is green really saying we can keep the law by ourselves??? He has said we need to obey before we can get Christ's righteousness. Perhaps green is confused by the terms obey and submit, who knows?] When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

We are far to prone to take sentences from EGW's writings and use them as "proof texts" to bolster our own ideas, and thereby totally miss the bigger picture. There is very little real Bible study here.

Christ fills that cup 100% with HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. And we walk in that righteousness to His glory. This changes the whole focus from "I must clean up my act in order to be acceptable to God" TO I am His child, how can I dishonor Him by doing this sin, I want to maintain righteousness which is shown by doing the will of God, I want to be close to Him!

Arnold, be careful here. If Jesus has power to save to the uttermost, and if His grace is sufficient for all, your theology, given the sentiments expressed in your comment above, would lead you necessarily to the point of saying everyone will have to be saved. It's either that, or you make God show partiality.

If God has no "partiality," then what is the difference between "saved" and "lost?"

I say, the difference is us. We make the difference, not God. How do we make the difference? There is a work of faith which we must do. There is an "obedience" which God does not do for us and which we must do for ourselves, or lose Heaven.

Do you define the "work" we do actually "choosing"? All of our righteousness is like filthy menstrual rags. We cannot obey. Only by the righteousness of Christ can be obey.

Christ fills that cup 100% with HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I was praising God for your post until you finished with the words above. Too bad. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful or imperfect. Jesus is not party to sin. Sin cannot abide in the heart wherein Christ reigns supreme. Sin and Jesus cannot cohabitate. "If his Spirit abides in the heart, sin cannot dwell there." {RH, March 16, 1886 par. 2} The fruit of abiding in Jesus is "perfect obedience" - not sin-stained imperfect obedience.

I have an idea. How about everyone shut down their SOP software and let's just go to the Bible? I saw somehing in Galatians that I had never really noticed before, and I would like to get a better handle on the Scriptures before going into the SOP. I want to use the SOP as a guide to my studies, not as its foundation.

I hear what you are saying. However, including inspired insights and testimonies here hardly counts against "real Bible study". If Ellen White were alive and posting here I doubt we would feel like "very little real Bible study" is happening. Many of the SOP quotes posted here include Bible texts.

Jesus does not have the power to save to the uttermost? YES HE DOES! Hebrews 7:25 Why he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.

By His sacrifice, Christ has given every one of us the freedom to resist and reject what He has given us. And sadly, many do. The lost want their own final end; at the judgment at the end of the thousand years of Revelation 20, they will ask for destruction. Those who are saved at last are simply those who gladly received the gift. That simple.



God is not partial. If He were, then there would be grounds for separation of Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, saved and lost.



Do you define the "work" we do actually "choosing"? All of our righteousness is like filthy menstrual rags. We cannot obey. Only by the righteousness of Christ can be obey.

You are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. You can choose to serve Him. {SC 471.}

The children of Israel failed at Sinai. They said, Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD has spoken we will do. They promises were ropes of sand. This is old covenant. This is Hagar, bondage (Galatians 4:24-25). This is what the brethern chose after 1888 instead of accepting the truth. The nature of Christ was also clearly proclaimed by Jones and Waggoner to counteract Romanism (Babylon) and its immaculate conception of Mary and thus the unfallen nature of Christ. We need to come out of Babylon!

I agree.

But do we have a part to play? I believe our part is to open the cup sonwe can receiveHis righteousness. The righteousness is all His, but we must be willing to be made righteous.

Arnold was saying that God gives us the obedience of Christ. If we can only obey when the obedience is given us, why should God, who has the power to do so,not give His obedience to everyone? Wouldn't that be "partial?" If God picks on a few people to give His saving obedience to, why is that not partial?

I understand that God gives His salvific obedience to those who show by their own obedience that they love and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. Without obedience on our part, the obedience of Christ is not imputed to us.

Faith is believing in God, believing in His promises.

Inviting Him into one's life, and trusting Him enough to surrender all to Him.

Faith is manifested by works, that is true faith will reveal itself in a changed life, eager to do God's will, which one may call "works", but that does not elevate works into the means to obtain salvation or the gifts of God.

James says works show that he has faith. No contradiction there. If his "faith" does show itself in a changed life (eager to do works for God) then it isn't faith at all -- but dead.

To receive we must open the door of faith, and allow Christ into our lives.

The so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead" (James 2:17). Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart" (Psalm 40:8). And just before He ascended again to heaven, He declare, "I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15:10). The Scriptures says, "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3). . . . {RC 274.4}

That's like saying a parent helps a baby to walk only after they have shown their own walking ability.

If you are sowing faith, rendering obedience to Christ, you will reap faith and power for future obedience. If you are seeking to be a blessing to others, God will bless you. . . . The joy we give to others will be reflected upon us again, for as we sow, we shall reap. . . . {TMK 92.4}

Those who have had living faith in the messages of God for the time in which they have lived, and who have acted out their faith in obedience to his commands, have been accepted of God, and have escaped the judgments that were to fall upon the disobedient and unbelieving. The word came to Noah, "Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me." Noah obeyed and was saved. The message came to Lot, "Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city." He placed himself under the guardianship of the heavenly messengers, and was saved. Those who obeyed the warning of Christ in marking the sign of the coming ruin, and in fleeing from Jerusalem, were not involved in her destruction. The message comes in our own time, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen. . . . Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Those who obey this message will escape the terrible plagues that will surely be visited upon her. {RH, November 5, 1889 par. 11}

I hear what you are saying. However, including inspired insights and testimonies here hardly counts against "real Bible study". If Ellen White were alive and posting here I doubt we would feel like "very little real Bible study" is happening. Many of the SOP quotes posted here include Bible texts.

Many from among our own people are writing to me, asking with earnest determination the privilege of
using my writings to give force to certain subjects that they wish to present to the people...I dare not give the least license for using my writings in the manner which they propose. In taking account of such an enterprise, there are many things that must come into consideration; for in using the testimonies to bolster up some subject which may impress the mind of the author, the extracts may give a different impression than that which they would were they read in their original connection. {Christian Writers 152.3}and {1SM 58.3}

And next year, we will have all her material available.

I agree. Faith is obedience. To receive, we must be obedient.

Ellen White quote:
The so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God is not faith, but presumption.

Grace is God's gift. Faith is our own action. It's a bit like saying God grants us the spark, and we must keep the flame alive through our own obedience.

[quote=dedication]That's like saying a parent helps a baby to walk only after they have shown their own walking ability.

God does not save those who do not obey. Our obedience does not save us nor make us worthy--salvation is a gift of grace--but our obedience is a prerequisite to God's ability to make His salvation available to us.

Self-denial will enable those who have done nothing in the past to do something tangible, and show that they believe the teachings of the word, that they believe the truth for this time. All, both old and young, parents and children, are to show their faith by their works. Faith is made perfect by works. We are in the very closing scenes of this earth's history; yet there are but few who realize this because the world has come in between God and the soul.--Letter 81, 1897.

It is true that there are many who have never had the light of present truth, who, through the grace given them of Christ, are keeping the law as far as they understand it. Those who are thus living up to the best light they have, are not of the class whom the apostle John condemns. His words apply to those who boast of believing in Jesus, who claim holiness, while they lightly regard the requirements of the law of God. While they talk of the love of Jesus, their love is not deep enough to lead to obedience. The fruit they bear, shows the character of the tree. It proves that their faith is not genuine. Yet this class, though entitled to nothing, though they have no right to the promises of God, boldly claim all His blessings. While they give nothing, they claim everything. They close their ears to the truth, refuse to listen to the plain "Thus saith the Lord," but by professing holiness they deceive many, leading souls away by their pretentious faith that has no foundation.--Gospel Workers, pp. 226, 227. (1892) {Ev 596.3}

"Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). There are many in the Christian world who claim that all that is necessary to salvation is to have faith; works are nothing, faith is the only essential. But God's Word tells us that faith without works is dead, being alone. Many refuse to obey God's commandments, yet they make a great deal of faith. But faith must have a foundation. {FW 47.1}

God's promises are all made upon conditions. If we do His will, if we walk in truth, then we may ask what we will, and it shall be done unto us. While we earnestly endeavor to be obedient, God will hear our petitions; but He will not bless us in disobedience. If we choose to disobey His commandments, we may cry, "Faith, faith, only have faith," and the response will come back from the sure Word of God, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). Such faith will only be as sounding brass and as a tinkling cymbal. In order to have the benefits of God's grace we must do our part; we must faithfully work and bring forth fruits meet for repentance. {FW 47.2}

We are workers together with God. You are not to sit in indolence, waiting for some great occasion, in order to do a great work for the Master. You are not to neglect the duty that lies directly in your pathway, but you are to improve the little opportunities that open around you. . . . {FW 47.3}

Abraham did not stop to question how God's promises could be fulfilled if Isaac were slain. He did not stay to reason with his aching heart, but carried out the divine command to the very letter, till, just as the knife was about to be plunged into the quivering flesh of the child, the word came: "Lay not thine hand upon the lad;" "for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." {CC 56.4}

Our obedience may never be perfect, and can never save us--for all have sinned and come under the penalty of death as a result--but when we do all in our power, God will then work in our behalf to save us from sin and destruction.

To clarify this . . . Our works will never be perfect, because we have already sinned. We can, however, become sanctified to a point where we perfectly reproduce the character of Christ. . . I hope this is more clear.

Many think that repentance is a work which devolves wholly upon man, but this is an error. The Bible does not teach that man must repent before he comes to Christ. Repentance must precede forgiveness; but the sinner does not repent till he has faith in Christ as his mediator. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. His love, shining from the cross, speaks eloquently of the sufferings of the only-begotten Son of God for fallen man. This love draws sinners to Him. The transgressor may resist this love; he may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist, he will be led to the foot of the cross, in repentance for the sins that caused the death of the Son of God. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 1}

If it were possible for man of himself to repent, Christ's atoning sacrifice would be in vain. But this is not possible. Repentance comes from Christ just as verily as does pardon. It is a false theory which teaches that repentance is a work which man must do himself, without any special help from Christ. If one step in the way of salvation could be taken without Christ, every step could be taken without Him. But without His help, the sinner can not take the first step in this way. The grace that brings forgiveness brings also contrition and repentance. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 2}

It is true that great reformations in outward conduct are made by those who have never expressed faith in Christ, and who may not have even a knowledge of Him. But it is none the less true that it is the influence of His grace that put into their hearts the desire to reform. The change in their life is the result of a blind faith. Ignorantly they worship that which leads them to respect true manhood. If they continue to walk toward the light, increased light will shine upon them; and they will bow in adoration before God, filled with gratitude for the love that led Him to give His only-begotten Son as a sacrifice for the lost race. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 3}

The repentance that God accepts is a repentance that needs not to be repented of,--a repentance revealed by a radical change of mind and heart. The heart must be brought into subjection to Christ, and a repentance that brings about such a change can never originate with man. Only from Him who declared, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me," can such repentance proceed. As the sinner yields to the drawing power of Christ's love, sorrow for sin and a desire to turn from his evil ways fill his heart, and as he seeks help from God, strength from on high is given him. The Saviour says, "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 4}

Those whom God pardons He first makes penitent. Some will say that this leaves man with nothing to do, with no part in the struggle against sin. This is not so; all the powers with which man has been entrusted must be employed in the effort to do the will of God. Man can never be saved in indolence. Christ declared, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work;" and those for whom He has given His life are to be co-workers with Him. We must watch and pray, lest we enter into temptation. We must fight against pride, self-exaltation, jealousy, evil thinking, and evil-speaking. Our earnest effort to overcome the evil in our characters will make manifest the sincerity of our prayers. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 5}

We must exercise faith in God. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." It is by faith alone that we can claim His promise, saying, "I receive the things I ask for; Thy Word is sure; it can not fail." {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 6}

We must be willing to realize our need. Those who feel that they are sinful and poor and wretched are the very ones to whom the invitation of mercy is extended. Jesus says, "I came not to call the righteous,"--those who are clothed with the garments of their own righteousness,--"but sinners to repentance." Those who are rich and honorable in their own estimation do not hunger and thirst after righteousness. They feel no need; therefore they do not ask for and receive the blessing of God. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 7}

Without the help of the Saviour, fallen man could never keep the law of God. But how glorious is the truth of the atonement? What a firm foundation have the saints of the Most High on which to place their hope of salvation! Not one of God's promises can fail. Through the righteousness of Christ the condemned sinner may be purified and made white. The Redeemer has carried the world's burden of guilt and woe, and He is able to strengthen His children for the conflicts that day by day they will meet in the path to heaven. {ST, March 18, 1903 par. 8}

Now, getting closer to the point of this discussion, our faith is shown in our effort to obey--which then unlocks heaven's storehouse of blessing and strength to help us obey more perfectly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary; but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable", sda bible commentary 6:1078... {1SM 344.2}

The pastor who fulfills his high commission must give his people faithful instruction on every point of the Christian faith, showing them what they must be and do in order to stand perfect in the day of God. He only who is a faithful teacher of the truth will at the close of his work be able to say with Paul, "I am pure from the blood of all men." {AA 393.4}

The Corinthian believers needed a deeper experience in the things of God. They did not know fully what it meant to behold His glory and to be changed from character to character. They had seen but the first rays of the early dawn of that glory. Paul's desire for them was that they might be filled with all the fullness of God, following on to know Him whose going forth is prepared as the morning, and continuing to learn of Him until they should come into the full noontide of a perfect gospel faith. {AA 307.2}

Is perfect obedience a requirement of the New Covenant or a promise? If it is a requirement, from whom is it required? If it is a promise, by whom and to whom is it promised?

Even our prayers need to be cleansed before they are acceptable. Passing through our corrupt humanity everything we do is defiled.

1. Is perfect obedience a requirement of the New Covenant or a promise?
2. If it is a requirement, from whom is it required?
3. If it is a promise, by whom and to whom is it promised?

Even our prayers need to be cleansed before they are acceptable. Passing through our corrupt humanity everything we do is defiled.

Green - you speak Old Covenant, where the people promised to keep the law, and our promises are ropes of sand.

The new-covenant promise is, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. While the system of types which pointed to Christ as the Lamb of God that should take away the sin of the world was to pass away at His death, the principles of righteousness embodied in the Decalogue are as immutable as the eternal throne. Not one command has been annulled, not a jot or tittle has been changed. Those principles that were made known to man in Paradise as the great law of life will exist unchanged in Paradise restored. When Eden shall bloom on earth again, God's law of love will be obeyed by all beneath the sun. {MB 50.2}

It is both a requirement and a promise. Look at the Ten Commandments. They are part of this covenant. Are they a requirement or a promise? I say both.

Arnold,

Think about it...can God write His law on our heart and mind without an action of repentance on our part first? Choosing Jesus is our first work. Without this, God cannot give us His righteousness. We receive His grace through faith, and faith itself involves an action on our part. Without this action, God cannot give us His righteousness.

I was repeating the thoughts of Ellen G White, based on Scripture. Not many people today accept fully Ellen. They replace her with new interpretations by powerful TV speakers and adjust their doctrines accordingly.

Back in the days when we still had the faith which Jesus predicts will almost disappear by the time He returns, my mother held me on her knees as we went through these truths, reading both in the writings of EGW and Scripture.

That is all true. But all of that combined still does not meet the requirements of the law. Now, as in Eden, the requirement is perfect obedience. But sinful man cannot give it. Only Jesus has the required perfect obedience.

If righteousness could be found in the law, then we would not need grace.

Moses lifted up his hands toward heaven when Israel and the opposing power were in warfare. Before all Israel he stood with his hands uplifted toward heaven. As soon as they began to drop the enemy gained the victory, and every time his hands were uplifted toward heaven the forces of Israel gained the victory. So Aaron and Hur stood on each side and held his hands toward heaven as a symbol, signifying that he was laying hold of the God of heaven as they must do. They must stretch their arms toward heaven. Christ is their helper. {1SAT 244.2}

Arnold, perhaps we are in agreement then. It is certainly only Jesus who saves us. The best analogy I can think of at the moment is that of Moses in holding up his arms.



This is our example. God did not hold up Moses' arms. That was Moses' part. We must also do likewise. When we have done all we can, God steps in and does the rest.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think perfect obedience is both a gift AND a requirement of God. The "requirement" portion can only be fulfilled by Christ, since we have all sinned. Regardless of whether or not we can reach a point of sinlessness, sin is already a blight upon our record from the past, which can only be erased by blood. Jesus' blood can do that for us--this is the "gift."

The "gift" portion includes the ability to live a sinless life. It includes the desire to live such a life. It includes the seed of faith to start us on this journey.

What does the "gift" NOT include? This is where we may see things differently.

I believe God's gift of grace leaves some portions to us, including "acceptance," which is more than a mere "assent" to the truth (as Mrs. White would have put it). Our part also includes the exercise of faith, which includes obedience on our part as an act of reciprocal love. It is our part to resist the devil and his temptations. God will not do the resisting for us. Once we resist, however, He will help us in the fight.

Basically, while it is true that God is in a sense 100% responsible for our salvation, and we do not deserve it in the least, it is also true that God does not just "give" His salvation to everyone. God extends His salvation to those who prize it, seek for it, and work for it. Only those who are thus seeking with all their hearts will find it.

That is the New Covenant. In the New Covenant, the heart is in it. God's laws are treasured, loved, and obeyed from the heart.

The "Old Covenant" was an unfortunate no-man's land of knowing the law, recognizing its validity and understanding its import, but no true desire of the heart to follow it. It consisted in a head knowledge and vain promise to follow the law, without any real motivation or strength to follow through on that promise. In this scenario, it is impossible to keep the law for any length of time.

M: Eventually we need to reconcile the Bible and SOP statements that say the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "pure and holy and undefiled" and "pleasing and acceptable" to God with the one or two SOP statements which seem to imply such fruit is defiled, in need of cleansing, and displeasing and unacceptable to God. So far we have not addressed it.

A: I addressed it but you ignored it as irrelevant. And in this case, this sub-topic IS irrelevant. The question is this: Is perfect obedience a requirement for the sinner to participate in the New Covenant? Or is perfect obedience a gift from God to those who are already participating in the New Covenant? IOW, is perfect obedience our offering to God, or God's gift to us. I think the answer distinguishes between the Old and New Covenant.

I don't recall you explaining why Adam's pre-fall sinlessness is relevant. Yes, perfect obedience is required to maintain justification. The fruit of abiding in Jesus does not require justification. The only thing it lacks is merit. Jesus supplies the merit. But in so doing He does not change it from sin to righteousness.

RE: http://www.ssnet.org/lessons/14b/less11.html

The last question for Friday (June 13) is, "How does the denial of the law, or even of one of the commandments, play into Satan's hands as he seeks to overthrow the law of God?"

Satan does not seek to overthrow the law of God. We know this because his greatest instruments are those who keep the law of God.
...
Satan is God's greatest law keeper.
...
And this is the law of God which Satan is adamant is worthless: LOVE.

I don't think you know anything about God's law. "Satan is God's greatest law keeper." Really?

Try this instead: "Love is the fulfilling of the law," courtesy of Paul.

God's law is ALL about love, no more, no less. You like to belittle other religions, especially Adventists. Yet, you are utterly, incredibly, mind-numbingly clueless. You are neck-deep in a false dichotomy that Satan has used for ages.

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

As a blind Pharisee, he saw himself blameless in law-keeping. But when his eyes were opened, sin revived and he died. Externally, he could claim perfection, but a true understanding of the claims of the law revealed him to be dead in trespasses and sins.

That's what happens when one is taught by Jesus, not Pharisees. Choose wisely.

You don't understand anything you are reading, and to prove it, I would like you to tell us what Paul meant when he said:

The lesson asks, "Why can't we really be keeping the commandments if we don't show love?"