The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

I want to prepare this discusson on the belief of "Sinless Perfection" with a description of what is meant by "Sinless Perfection" as many think it is a 'sinless' life which it is not as scripture makes clear.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So this is not a discussion on 'sinlessness' per se, as one can sin yet still reach this state of 'perfection'. It is a state or level that is reached with divine help in which we no longer sin or desire to sin, so lets start with the definition of the building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.


Now keep in mind that as the Fundamental Beliefs have the following:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

...Ellen White's writings are not a external source to the argument, but well within the realm of it as those who accept its source as the Spirit of Prophecy cannot be denied its use in this discussion.

Now there are many verses that speak of 'overcoming' so we must first look at them to see what is being overcome. If everyone can bring up the verses or quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy and lay them out so we can look at them. Here are a few:

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Overcoming sin, self, and Satan "even as [Jesus] also overcame" obviously cannot involve sinning and repenting until sinning ceases. It must necessarily mean successfully recognizing and resisting temptations from within and from without.

Is the problem one that God causes? (because He requires holiness and perfection) Or is the problem that sin itself ruins one's character so that one would not be happy in heaven?

Hopefully the difference is clear.



The problem is not one of what God requires, but of what unfits one for heaven.

When discussing perfection, is it important that we understand this distinction? I think it is.

Sin cannot dwell in the presence of God, therefore, God requires sinlessness. He desires greatly to dwell with us and greatly desires us to have peace and happiness, which means He must necessarily demand godliness, righteousness, and true holiness. They're called Ten Commandments for good reason. They're also not called Ten Suggestions for good reasons. God demands and commands sinlessness because it's for our good and the good of the Universe.

What does this mean? If we look at Christ, we see that sinners, full of sin, were able to dwell in the presence of Christ. However, when "divinity flashed through humanity," such as at the cleansing of the temple, the money-changers were constrained to leave Christ's presence. So there's certainly a sense in which the above is true, but we should understand what that circumstance is.

Sin is not a sentient being. It doesn't exist of itself. To say that sin cannot dwell in the presence of God doesn't really mean anything, unless we understand that sin is something which pertains to sinners. That is, sinners cannot reside in the presence of God, but not because of something which God does to make this the case, but simply because of the nature of sin, and how it acts upon one's conscience, as we see in the case of the money-changers. Or Judas is another example.



It's certainly true that God greatly desires us to have peace and happiness. To say that God "demands" godliness, righteousness, and true holiness should be understood in its proper context. God "demands" these things in that He communicates to us what the truth is. He tells us the truth about the nature of His kingdom, His own character, and the nature of sin.

It's not as if there were some other alternative, and God could "demand" something else.



What needs to be understood is what's driving things. As you point out, avoiding sin is for our own good and the good of the Universe. But against it's not as if there were some other way. God simply communicates the truth to us.

Also "sinless" is the same thing as love (agape), right? And "love cannot be commanded." (DA 22) Going on:"Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan."

This is why the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God" that man might be set right and kept right with God.

Even if sinners ceased sinning they would still be consumed in the presence of God. There's nothing arbitrary about it. That's just what would happen.

God commands and demands righteousness and true holiness because there is no other alternative. But He also does so to make it clear what is required of us. Again, they're called Ten Commandments - not something else.

And, we are commanded to love God and to love one another. It's not optional. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Mark
12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

If a sinner ceased sinning he would no longer be a sinner, and there would be no reason for him to die. He did the sinner stop sinning?



You're not giving any context here for your comments, so I don't know what point you're addressing or why. Of course there is no alternative to righteousness. What would the alternative be? What is required of us is to live according to the law of life for the universe, which is agape. This is because God wants us to live. The foundation of sin is selfishness, which can only lead to suffering, misery, and death, right? Agape = life. Selfishness = death.



Same thing. It's not an arbitrary command, but simply a description of reality.

Jesus told Ellen she would be consumed to death if she were allowed to appear in the presence of God in her current state. I take this to mean sinful flesh cannot survive in the fire light of God's person and presence. I realize you dispute (and despise) this observation.

Yes, I agree, the law describes righteousness and true holiness. But it also condemns sinning. Through the law, God commands and demands and promises obedience. But He also promises to punish and annihilate persistent sinners. If God hadn't promised to execute and eliminate unsaved sinners such recourse wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on.

PS - In accordance with the passages posted above, it is clear God commands us to love Him and to love one another.

You're right that I'm not crazy about the "fire light" idea. However, it makes sense to me that we, in our present condition, could not survive God in all His glory. I think the issue is one involving character, however, rather than fire light. That is, we would just be overwhelmed, like Isaiah was, because of the awesomeness of God's glory (character). Note how Isaiah responded ("woe is me, for I am undone").

Given that the issue is one of being overwhelmed by God's character, I don't think Jesus Christ, even in sinful flesh, would have had this problem. Admittedly, we don't have much from inspiration to go from, but, on the basis of intuition or common sense, it doesn't make sense to me that Jesus Christ could not have survived in God's presence.

The idea that sinners are capable of comprehending the character of God in a way that would result in them being consumed to death seems far fetched.

Does GC 543 seem far fetched? (It says that the exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, and that being in heaven would be torture for them, that they would long to flee from). Also DA 764 says that the wicked separate themselves from God, who alone is the source of life, thus cutting themselves off from life.

What gifts, talents, abilities, or whatever do they naturally possess that enables them to comprehend God's character so thoroughly that it results in them being consumed to death in His physical presence but not in His physical absence?

PS - No, not enjoying heaven doesn't sound far fetched. Yes, that they can separate themselves from God in a way that results in them dying seems far fetched. Please explain how you envision it happening? That is, what will they do to cut themselves off from God? What will they do to cause themselves to die in His absence?

I believe what DA 764 and GC 543 says about the destruction of the wicked. These are the passages that have best help me understand what happens.

I don't think God is physically absent from anywhere.

Regarding what happened, I think considering how Christ died can best help understand it. She writes that the cross proclaims that the wages of sin is death. So how did Christ die?

She talks about how Christ felt the anguish which the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race, that Christ couldn't see through the portals of tomb, that the sense of sin, and God's wrath, His displeasure against sin, broke his heart. I see similar things happening to the wicked. They can't see through the portals of the tomb. The sense of sin, of God's wrath, of His displeasure against sin, causes them anguish.

A key point to consider, I believe, is that sin causes one to believe things about God which are not true. In the case of Christ, He was able to overcome this by faith, by drawing upon His past experience, by His knowledge of Scripture. The wicked, not having faith, will just have the negative feelings which sin brings, of remorse, guilt, fear, anguish, etc.

Why didn't the Father's feelings about sin cause Jesus to suffer unimaginable soul anguish before He became a human?

If Jesus suffered for sin like the resurrected wicked will at the end of time does this mean they will hang on a cross and feel intense sorrow because they long to live eternally with the Father in heaven?

In what sense do you believe the Father is physically present here and now?

I have reworded your 4 points. Do you agree with them?

1) Sinful humans cannot experience real righteousness and true holiness relying solely on their own unaided abilities.

2) Perfection is a reality when sinful humans experience a full and complete conversion (i.e have learned how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus has commanded) and chooses moment by moment to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature. The result is they are experiencing victory over sin, self, and Satan and are maturing more and more in the fruits of the Spirit like Adam did before the Fall.

3) Before the Fall Adam had freewill and could sin, but when sinful humans experience a full and complete conversion they consciously choose to subdue and subject their inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies to a sanctified will and mind. While abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature they have no desire to sin.

4) Unconverted sinful humans cannot go to heaven and stand in the presence of Divinity. They would be consumed to death by the fire light of His person and presence. God commands and demands perfect righteousness and true holiness because it is right and righteous and the only way for anyone (men, angels, or otherwise) to experience peace and true happiness.

PS - A note on the word "overcoming": Overcoming sin, self, and Satan "even as [Jesus] also overcame" obviously cannot involve sinning and repenting until sinning ceases. It must necessarily mean successfully recognizing and resisting unholy thoughts and feelings (temptations) from within and from without. Do you agree?

Can one sin by having an incorrect idea of God's character, and communicating that incorrect idea to others? Or is simply having the right behavior sufficient?

Tom, please do not overlook 126556. Thank you.

PS - Regarding your question above, yes, it is possible to sin by misunderstanding the character of God and communicating it to others. However, such a sin would be considered a sin of ignorance and would not count against them in judgment. Based on what I posted above do you think I believe something about God that qualifies as a sin of ignorance?

I think it did. Not just the Father's, but Jesus' own feelings about sin.





This can't be a serious question.



God is physically everywhere. I don't know how else to answer your question. Without God's physical presence, nothing could live.

The following comes to mind:



I can't think of anything more important than what's spoken of here; that is, conceiving of God in a true character, worshiping the true God, the living God, as He is revealed in His word, in Christ, and in the works of creation.



I have no opinion regarding this. I'm not your judge, or anyone else's. However, when I see you state opinions about God which I believe are incorrect, I'll comment on that, as I have in the past.

No, I would disagree, as I cannot believe for a second that the Catholic leaders do not know what they teach is paganism, and that Christian ministers dont know what they teach on Gods law being nil, is incorrect, they are not that ignorant. In the end time the Holy Spirit will be poured out and the Sabbath will be shown in a way that will allow people to see what is truth

Rick, good point.

I don't see where the question is about contradictions in Mrs. White's writings. Of course that would only be an issue to Fundamentalists. Now there are points where we can explain the truth as a oneness of opposits, and at times she emphesises one side and other times the other where she saw that we need to make one of the opposits.

However this topic is a very important topic:

First there is an important point we need to understand that too many don't realize. Luther was an Augustinian, and Augustine believed in predestination. Calvin was baffeled as to why his beloved France refused the Reformation, and finally concluded that they were predestined to be lost. As his students were willing to return to France and end up burned at the stake, there was the currage to face incredable problems, therefore they were predestened for salvation. With all these feelings of predestination there was the idea that it did not matter what you do. If you were predestined to be saved, then you will be saved no matter what. And if you are predestined to be lost then you will be lost no matter what. We have tended to forget this point when we point out the quotes from the Reformers about the worthlessness of our works. Adventism, athough Protestant, tends not to be very Auginstinian. There were dissagreements on the nature of Inspiration between Jerome and Augustine, and our heritage tends to be Jeromeian. The Church also argued ofer differences between Augustine and St. Francis, and our Heritage stems from the Franciscans. And the issues between Augustine and Arminianism, while not completely Arminian, Mrs. White tended to make a oneness of this conflect with elements from both sides of the argument working together and the result still has God supream and in control, and we have things that limit our freedoms (family, environment, background, time in history we live in, etc), but we are moraly free and not predestined. We have to remember the influence that Augustine has had on the Church, however how our heritage is Jerome, St. Francis and stronly influenced by Ariminism, rather than Augustine.

Second: We need to continue to study the nature of hell fire and the distruction of the wicked. I understand that it is the flames that constantly surround the throne of God, God's brightness, glory, love, the glory of his character of love. That hell fire is God visible in person. When prophets saw God in person they initially felt like they were being burned alive, however as time went on instead of this feeling of being burned alive, they came to thrive in this fire. Jesus is our deepest desire. I can go into detail another time, but basically I understand hell fire being when the lost see Jesus, want to be with Jesus and other loved ones they see inside the city, but they feel the guilt of their sins and understanding the uglyness of their sins in God's sight and being unforgiving people they can't see how God can forgive them, feel that God will get them for their sins, go through what Jesus went through in the garden and on the cross, and while the long to come to Jesus and repent, they won't and sepperate themselves from the only source of life. I understand that God treats us the same, but there are two responces to how people react when they see Jesus in person. That fire that made the prophets feel like they were being burned alive but who they learned to thrive in, will either be where we thrive too, or else consumed by.

However this point is different for those who believe that hell fire is of a different nature and who believe that they face God and God either says "Welcome into heaven" or "You are lost" and they leave for hell kicking and screaming. However how we stand on this second point is one that we need to keep in mind as we study and discuss.

Third: Mrs. White saw a difference between perfecting our nature and perfecting our character. It is character perfection that we are to go after.

Fourth: The law of God is self sacrificing love. Nothing more and nothing less. When we love the world as Jesus has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished, we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts. Now we may ask what does self sacrificing love mean and so we have the 2 great principles to love God supreamly and our neighbor as ourselves. Now we can ask how we do this, and so we have the 10 commandaments, the first third, consisting of 3 commandaments, tell us how we can love God supreamly. The last third consisting of 6 commandaments tells us the work of the Holy Spirit in making us loving and lovable people, loving our neighbor as our selves, and the middle third, consisting of one commandment tells us that the only way we can love God supreamly and our neighbor as ourselves is through resting in a friendship and relationship with Jesus. Everything else are just applications, and while God's law is absolute, the applications are not absolute.

Although character perfection means to love God and all that God made as Jesus has loved it. We will still have our sinful nature, a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world, Everything, even our best will always be tainted with this disposition, tainted with selfishness. We will always commit sins of omission as while we are doing out best to help as many others as we can, we cannot help all of them, there will always be starting people as we eat. However we will do our best, and will share the love of Jesus as best as we know now. We will question our actions as to whether it is going more towards loving the world as Jesus has loved it, or if it goes more towards feeling we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. And we will be showing the love of Jesus.

Now as to the question about whether God the Father loves us as much as God the Son: I suppose you are thinking where Mrs. White discribes God the Son approching God the Father three times to ask to save us.

We need to remember, there is but one God, infinite and impersonal, outside of time and space, the creator of time and space. A God too big to be comprehended. So God is also inside of time and space, in the relm of finite, teaching us that God is the almighty creator ruler of the universe, the great unapproachable light/the deep darkness, or God the Father. This revelation of God is necessary but alone not sufficient, we need to also have God as one of us, one we can be close to. This revelation of God is what we call God the Son, also necessary but alone insufficient. Then there is God working with our cells to work and with our subjective expirence, so we have God the Holy Spirit. We need all three of these.

As the personal aspect of God, it is God the Son's job to be the spokesman for the trinity. When Jesus approached God the Father 3 times to ask if he can come and save the human race, it was not that God the Father was less interested, but that Jesus was asking on behalf of the entire triniy, once for each of them. Also the 3 are related to the 3 deceptions of Satan and how each one of them were difficult to deal with. The difficuly we see in the 3 requests were for each member of the trinity. And when Jesus asked 3 times for this cup to pass from him and how the cup was too great to bear, again Jesus was praying as the spokesman for the trinity, praying for each member, and praying that each deception of satan alone was two great to bear, much less all three at once.

And as you study the poetic forms in the Bible, and the chaisms and parrelism, the Bible would presume a parrelism for the 3 times that Jesus asked for the cup to pass from him would need the other side of the poem, of him asking for the cup.

I hope this helps, I know I summed up too much but willing to expand if needed.

Does this imply Jesus also committed sins of ignorance since He was unable to help everyone?

The question isn't about "not sinning".

The question is about "abiding"...

Amen, Timber. Not sinning is not the goal. Not sinning is not right doing. Right doing involves abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature "that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works . . . rich in good works." (2 Tim 3:17 and 1 Tim 6:18)

Being in harmony with God, brings us to to the place were Job as an upright man, and Enoch who walked with God, were. So it is possible to overcome sin, but no one except Christ can say they are without sin. Thus we have to distigush from the imperfect person we were, and what through Christ we can become as the Holy Spirit transforms us.