Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble

His child: Would you say that the judgment of dead and living has ended and time of Jacob's trouble has begun?

Green Cochoa: I would not say that, His Child.

Daryl: I wouldn't say that either.

His child: why would anyone believe that the time of Jacob's Trouble has not started?

gordonb1: A valid but sobering question HC.

Green Cochoa: HC: "A decree went forth to slay the saints, which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob's trouble." -- EGW.

Green Cochoa: Has such a decree gone forth?

Green Cochoa: If it's easy to be mistaken about something like this now, imagine when our books are removed from us. Now is the time to study, learn, and memorize.

His child: "time of trouble, which is to increase until the end" EW 253.1 "I saw the time of trouble, such as never was,--Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble"
Broadside1, April 6, 1846 par. 8

Daryl: As these chats here are only temporary and eventually drop from this Chat Box, you may wish to create a thread instead of chatting about it here.

His child: Here is the thread

From my study, the Time of Trouble that Jesus calls the time of Jacob's trouble began yom kippur (9/21/13).

The time of trouble peeks when the Sunday law is passed. But when Jacob's time of trouble began, he was fleeing his uncle Laban, who was perusing him.

"time of trouble, which is to increase until the end" EW 253.1 "I saw the time of trouble, such as never was,--Jesus told me it was the time of Jacob's trouble"
Broadside1, April 6, 1846 par. 8

Laban would have taken everything back to his home and left jacob with nothing had god not appeared to him in a dream and told him not to speak good or ill toward Jacob.

The time of Jacob's increased until Jacob spent the night wresting with the angel.

Why would anyone say Jacob's time of trouble has already started?

Green C.has the right chronology.

I think we need to look at passages in their context.
A quote out of context is not truth.



And in the following she is summarizing the FUTURE time.



Trouble has been in the world since sin began.
But when the Great time of trouble comes -- PROBATION is closed.

As probation hasn't closed yet, the "Great time of trouble" hasn't started yet.

While this might be true, I think we will know less about when probation has closed than we will about the time of Jacob's trouble.

"No man knoweth the day, nor the hour...."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The 144,000 will know when probation has closed because they will cease praying and laboring for the salvation of the wicked. They will cry unto Jesus to thrust in His sickle and reap.

Revelation
14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

The prophetic time of "Jacob's Trouble" has passed, a LONG time ago, even before Christ. It is mentioned in Jer. 30 (esp. verse 7), a prophecy by Jeremiah the prophet of God concerning the events to happen just prior to the fall of Babylon and the return of the Jews to their homeland by the Cyrus decree.

It was a prophecy written in a book at about the time they were taken captive when God was telling them that the captivity was going to be long, but eventually they were going to return. However, in the prophecy, God said they were going to experience a period of great fear and trepidation of being swept away in the tumult; but God was going to save them.

You can see the entire prophecy in Jer. 29-30. Always remember: THE BIBLE INTERPRETS ITSELF! There is no need to push the words of men into its narrative.
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There have been many, many times of trouble since sin began, including the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon.

However, the classical prophets, while predicting immediate events, and warning their own contemporary nation of the results of sin, also were given extended views to events well beyond the scope of their day.

Thus we are discussing the last great "Jacob's time of trouble".
This time of trouble correlates with Daniel 12:1,2 -- after Jesus stands up to execute judgment, (probation has ceased, the plagues fall and evil is unleashed to fully exhibit itself) the world is plunged into a time of trouble such as never was before, and God's people will be delivered.

Incorrect interpretation. Read Jer. 29-30. The time of "Jacob's Trouble" has already been fulfilled. Please be a responsible Bible student.
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I didn't notice. What happened then? And are you sure yom kippur is in September and not October? (That give you more time to herald your opinion) I guess the time of Jacob's trouble is not very bad at all. Nothing to be concerned about. Thank you for putting us at peace.

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But what time of Jacob's trouble are you talking about. The little one prior to the Sunday law, the one for the wicked, or The time of Jacob's Trouble?

This has been a very informative read. Thanks to all.

Instead of my first statement, would I have been more correct to have said:


"Would you say that the judgment of dead and living has ended and little time of trouble has begun that will soon become the time of Jacob's trouble?"

As I have read the postings in reply to my original post, I have to restate:

His child: Would you say that the judgment of dead and living has ended and LITTLE time of Trouble that is soon to become the time of Jacob's trouble has begun?

From my study, the Little Time of Trouble that leads into what Jesus calls the time of Jacob's trouble began yom kippur (9/21/13).

I don't know of any special event that made the news. But Yom kippur is in either Sept or Oct every year. This year it was on 9/23/13.

From my study of Daniel and Revelation, I learned the the judgment of the dead transitioned to the living and that ended 2/14/13.

In my quick study, I jumped from the LITTLE time of trouble to Jacob's Trouble. But thanks to those who took time to read a little more carefully, my lack of knowledge has been educated a little more.

I don't believe probation has closed for everyone yet, no. If you were where I am, you would probably agree. Yes, the light has been around for a long time in the Americas, and the light is fast becoming darkness there. But not so here in Asia. The light is still increasing, from nearly total darkness. I rejoice to have opportunities here and there to share with people who have never before heard why Jesus came to earth.

If probation has truly closed, would you be telling all of God's missionaries to cease from their labors and go find a cave to weather out the coming storm?

I suggest you thoughtfully weigh the results of such a belief as that probation has already ended. I urge you to continue to share the Good News with as many as will receive it before that awful hour arrives. God is merciful who will not shut that door too soon, but who waits for us to come to Him until the last possible moment.

Then should we also not with Him continue to spread God's Word to our utmost?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What we often call the "little time of trouble" takes place BEFORE probation closes.



The trouble builds up over time. It will be some sort of trouble in the world that will allow for Sunday legislature under the guise of "returning to God".

As Sunday is agitated due to turmoil in the world, and governments start making laws to "protect" Sunday from secular pursuits, believers will boldly proclaim the Sabbath more fully -- it will be a tremendously powerful last call to worship the Creator God Who is our Father in heaven, instead of bowing to the human "spiritual father" who thinks to change God's holy time and laws.

Probation will still be open, Christ will still be ministering in the sanctuary, and oh how we pray that all our loved ones will see and fully commit before it is forever too late.

But don't wait till you see this before seeking the Lord. Seek him NOW, today is the day of salvation. Many will fall by the wayside because they did not establish a vital relationship with their Creator during the times of relative Peace.

Just at what point probation closes we will not know.

The Sunday issue will escalate fast, and when God sees the message of the last loud cry has done its work, Christ will cease his priestly work and fully release the restraints on evil. Then the earth is plunged into a time of trouble such as never was. The plagues will fall. But for the faithful the most agonizing time will be just after the plagues become evident and especially after the death decree goes forth, for then they understand probation is closed.




The most urgent thing now is to spread the truth about the three angels messages. Eternal life or eternal death is in the balances.

******* STAFF EDIT *******
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Well said, dedication.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Could you show that to be true? I believe some would disagree. I just want to know how you know this.

I am at work, but when I get home will see if can post the time line on the final events we got last Sabbath from some in the group who are studying this.

???

As I read it the time allotted for the judgment: of the dead papacy was from Yom Kippur 10/22/1844 to 2/22/1928

The papacy had its deadly wound healed 2/29/1929

thus the time allotted for the judgment of the living papacy was from Yom Kippur 10/14/1929 to 2/14/2013 at which time Pope Benedict resigned. The living papacy with one pope ruling the papal kingdom ended.

the time allotted for the judgment of the living papacy had ended and on Yom Kippur 9/14/2013 the time of trouble began, which is to escalate until it becomes Jacob's trouble.

Daniel 11:43 tells of trouble in Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. The dictators were removed from office in that exact sequence: Egypt = jailed Mubarak. Libya = killed Qaddafi. And Ethiopia's Meles Zenawi died unexpectedly of "natural causes."

The Daniel 11:44-45 goes into a time of trouble like the world has never seen before.

America is in sequester mode. The US Government is shut down. And on October 17, 2013 (if the US Congress does not raise the debt ceiling) America will default on its debts. President Obama could be forced to take drastic measures if the debt ceiling is not raised. This is a formula for the Mark of the Beast.

And all of this is in the context of Daniel 7:17 identifying the kings from the earth (America) the last being Obama as I read the prophecy.

Thus as I read the evidence, we are in the time of trouble that is to worsen rapidly.

I believe that this is a tarrying time for the out pouring of the holy Spirit and the shaking.

As I continue to pray and study and read feedback from you all, Lord willing, I will understand more soon.

Blessings
Henry

Well said (it is rare that dedication and I agree). But as we study the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, we both may yet see things more clearly.

Blessings
Henry

The Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar. If lunar months are 28 days long, in time it becomes out of sync with the solar calendar. So they add a 13th month every so often (Adar II) to keep it aligned. here are 2 links that you can check our for more information.

Yom Kippur - Atonement and Holiness - High Holidays - Chabad
www.chabad.org › Jewish Practice › Jewish Holidays › High Holidays‎ September 13–14, 2013. Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year—the day on which we are closest to G‑d and to the quintessence of our own souls. It is the ...
When is Yom Kippur in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017? - High ...

www.chabad.org › ... › Jewish Holidays › High Holidays › Holiday Dates‎
Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, falls on the Hebrew calendar date of 10 Tishrei. Here are the coinciding secular dates for upcoming years: 2013: September ...

I look forward to your post

I haven't read all this discussion, but what I've read there's a lot of speculation going on without really understanding the real trouble Jacob had and how he became victorious which was marked with his new name Israel. Jacob's life does set up the TYPE for the nation of Israel, and also for us individually that we need to go through those fall feasts pattern(time of trouble) before we can become victorious as he did. Is Jacob' trouble the same as the time of trouble SDAs has defined??? Let me know what you think.

Being in the SDA Church for over a quarter century, I never really understood Jacob’s victory over the angel besides the cliché presented at church. Nor after 5 years of observing the Feasts, did I really understood the meaning of the fall feast of Tabernacles(booths or Sukkoth(plural of sukkah)).

A sukkah is a temporary hut or tent. There are two places named Sukkoth in the Bible.

1. Sukkoth-Canaan
The first, is found in Gen 33:17 “Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built himself a house, and made booths[sukkoth, tents] for his livestock: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.”

This place was in Canaan. Notice that Jacob build himself a house and not a sukkah when he finally arrived in Canaan. It was his livestock(sheep and goats) that he build sukkoth for; thus he was led to called that place Sukkoth.

Initially, this text seems contradictory for why name a place Sukkoth when he didn't build any for himself??? Yet, it was in Jacob’s journey story after leaving Laban that I recently found some understanding in his victory and its connection with him arriving in Sukkoth-Canaan.

2. Sukkoth in the Wilderness
The second place name Sukkoth in the Bible, is the first Israelite encampment in the wilderness when they left Egypt. For 40 years, the Israelites moved and pitch their tent(sukkah) from place to place following the pillar of fire and cloud wherever the Lord led them. Israel were not to build a house and settle anywhere while being in the wilderness for they needed to promptly follow whenever the pillar of fire and cloud would move. Building a house to settle somewhere had to wait until the Lord led them into their final destination into Canaan -- the Promised Land -- to receive their inheritance. Thus, their wilderness experience in a tent(sukkah) was their intermediate spiritual journey that is between Passover(justification) and Feast of Tabernacles(entering the promised land).

Life of Jacob a TYPE of the Life of the nation of Israel
Hosea compares the life of Jacob to the life of Israel. Israel, like Jacob after his slavery to Laban, was heading to return to the land of Canaan to keep the appointed feasts(Hos 12:9). When we study closely his journey between leaving Laban and arriving to Canaan, we notice that there was 3 stops or encampments by which Jacob gave these places names. The meanings of these 3 places are types pointing to the 3 fall feasts(Day of Trumpet, Day of atonement and Feast of Tabernacle) that each one of us must experience in our own spiritual journey.

The Names of the 3 encampments of Jacob(Israel) with a brief explanation of its feast type:

1) Mahanaim : Means “two camps” by which was the place Jacob separated Rachel’s family(fig. overcomers) from Leah’s family(fig. the congregation). This points to the two resurrections which are symbolized by the feast of Trumpets. There were two trumpets made to summon the people. Blowing one trumpet summon the rulers(=overcomers who will rule with Christ), blowing both trumpets summon the congregation(=church).


2) Penuel or Peniel : was the place where Jacob wrestles what he thought was a man and ended up being an angel. That’s when he had an epiphany moment realizing that he wasn’t wrestling with Esau all along, but with the Lord. That’s why Jacob said to Esau the next day “for I see your face as one sees the face of God" (Gen. 33:10). Jacob didn’t see the face of the Lord in the face of Esau unless it was by special revelation that he understood the Sovereignty of God behind every circumstance including Esau, Laban, etc... So Jacob named “the place Peniel[face of God ]: for I have seen God face to face, yet my life is preserved.” Gen 32:30

Dr. Bullinger comments on Jacob prevailing over the angel:



In Penuel was the day of revelation and decision for Jacob that completely changed his life from being a Jacob = usurper, contender(fighting against the enemy) to being Isra-el = God Commands ( seeing a Sovereign God behind every circumstances). Penuel represents the Day of Atonement by which the Lord turn it into a Jubilee for Jacob – the highest type of Sabbath. When Jacob’s eyes were opened to see the face of the Lord behind the circumstances, recognizing the Lord as Sovereign; only there after Jacob-Israel could stop fighting against enemies and start resting in God in all things and enter His rest.

For 98 years, Jacob wrestled with his brother Esau and with his uncle Laban. Then, God had mercy upon him and sent an angel the night before meeting Esau. Near daybreak, Jacob had the revelation and saw that he was actually wrestling with an angel. All along, the problem was not with Esau, but with his superficial vision. Esau was used to teach Jacob of His sovereignty.

This revelation brought Jacob to repentance which is depicted by the Day of Atonement and prepared the way for him to keep the feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth).

3)Sukkoth : was his final destination in the land of Canaan. He set up the Tabernacle type(or pattern) after his life-long journey as a Jacob in which by the Lord's mercy, he ended up as an overcomer as an Isra-el. Only once he overcame could he enter the Lord’s rest in Canaan and build himself a house to settle in.

Jacob became Israel because of his IMMENSE faith in God. He hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and sought diligently to attain it. He contended for it, he fought for it, he begged and pleaded for it, he craved it. His character was put on full display when he worked FOURTEEN YEARS for the hand of Rachel. It bore fruit in his pleading with the "Angel of The Lord" for a blessing and reassurance. It is that contention for, that earnestness of spirit to which God alluded when he changed his name to Israel: "because as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." (Gen. 33:28)

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There are some good thoughts above.
However, when was Jacob brought to repentance?

I believe it was at Bethel.
Jacob, quilt ridden, running from his brother who threatened to kill him, probably thinking he was cast out by God Himself, falls into a troubled sleep.
God reveals Himself to Jacob -- the ladder with angels ascending and descending. The very picture of showing Jacob that God cares. The covenant promises are made to Jacob.

At that point Jacob is repentant and restored to a relationship with God. His 21 years working for Laban revealed a changed character. Being cheated so many times by Laban, he faithfully preformed his contracts and God blessed him.

If Jacob had not repented back in Bethal, would this have been so?

But now Jacob is about to enter the promised land.

Gen. 32:1-2 and the angels of God met him.
And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

I see these "two camps" as God's host (the angels of God and the people of God)
The other camp is Esau and his men. The two hosts are about to meet.

The one who threatened to destroy him was marching against him to carry out the threat. "Thy brother Esau, he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him."

The odds, seen from a human standpoint, were strongly in favor of Esau doing away with Jacob. Esau with his army of 400 men against Jacob with wives and children and herds and cattle.

So Jacob (after arranging things) goes away to pray.
32:11 "Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children."

He is praying for deliverance from what he fears is sure death.
He sends all kinds of presents to Esau to appease him.

Then goes back to praying.
Suddenly Jacob is confronted by a "man" and they start to wrestle.
I don't think Jacob had any idea who this was, he was in fear of Esau and was fighting for his life.
No one else in all the Bible started physically wrestling when an angel appeared, they all fell down in awe. But Jacob figured he was being attacked and so he wrestled -- all night.

But sometime, possible when his thigh went out of joint, Jacob realized this was not Esau, or one of Esau's men, this was a heavenly being. That's when he started clinging and to plead for a blessing and reassurance.

And he received it!
He was delivered from the wrath of Esau and they met in peace.
Jacob entered the promised land.


How does this relate to the last days?

1. The ladder from earth to heaven -- that represents now, now we make our connection with heaven, now we repent and find the relationship with Christ.

2. The 21 years of faithful service -- character building-- that is also now as we live for Christ.

3. Just before the entrance into the promised land (symbolic of heaven) "Esau" who has claimed the land without the spiritual connection, marches against those to whom it is promised (those who keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus).

This is the night of Jacob's trouble. If Jacob had not repented and found his strength in the Lord previously he would not have prevailed with any heavenly Angel. But now in his trouble he does prevail and pleads for the blessing.

The same with God's faithful in the end, it will be a time of pleading for deliverance and begging for His blessing.
And they prevail, because they have previously repented and committed themselves to God.

They are delivered.

No. No it doesn't. Are places named only for people?

Yes, I understand the calendars are different, but why September and not October? Which one is correct? Why do people like these say it is in October? http://www.lightedway.org/html/calendar13.pdf

Probably has to do with the starting point. What starts it? Who's right?

"I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God’s people." {EW 270.2}

We are now in the time of the shaking. Our message as Seventh Day Adventists of the state of the dead will warn the world that the current tide of events were prophesied in scripture and in the testimonies, and this will cause persecution to build against us.

"The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; (THEN) they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.—The Great Controversy, 588 (1911). {LDE 144.4}

The rights of our freedom of conscience is our right to keep the Sabbath.

So the Sabbath issue comes after our warning the world about spiritualism, just like God showed me.

Then after the unsanctified are shaken out of the true church, persecution begins to build over the Sabbath issue.

"I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect.... I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, “It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel.”—Early Writings, 271 (1858). {LDE 186.5}

The loud cry of the third angel is "Babylon has fallen and has become the habitation of demons". So when demons are appearing as angels of light to deceive the world and we are warning everyone, the world begins taking notice of our doctrines and begins persecuting us over the Sabbath issue.

“I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question to unite the hearts of God’s dear, waiting saints. I saw that God had children who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They have not rejected the light upon it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully.” {EW 85.2} (so the latter rain falls at the same time as the little time of trouble or persecution begins and THEN we start to proclaim the Sabbath issue more fully, so the Spiritualism issue is what begins the little time of trouble and then we receive the latter rain and begin to proclaim the Sabbath more fully)continuing...
This view was given in 1847 when there were but very few of the Advent brethren observing the Sabbath, and of these but few supposed that its observance was of sufficient importance to draw a line between the people of God and unbelievers. Now the fulfillment of that view is beginning to be seen. “The commencement of that time of trouble,” here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check (holding the 4 winds during 9/11) so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the “latter rain,” or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out." {EW 85.3}

Notice the bible quotes she inserts here. "At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry". The nations being angry is part of the prophecy that Jesus told us in Matthew 24;3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them...28 Wherever the corpse is, there the eagles will gather.

This is the sign that these events are about to be fulfilled.


“See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

THEN

15 “... when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Sunday Law), standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Here are the two great issues, first Spiritualism and then the Sabbath.

"I saw that soon it would be considered blasphemy to speak against the rapping, and that it would spread more and more, that Satan’s power would increase, and some of his devoted followers would have power to work miracles, and even to bring down fire from heaven in the sight of men. I was shown that by the rapping and mesmerism, these modern magicians would yet account for all the miracles wrought by our Lord Jesus Christ, and that many would believe that all the mighty works of the Son of God when on earth were accomplished by this same power. I was pointed back to the time of Moses, and saw the signs and wonders which God wrought through him before Pharaoh, most of which were imitated by the magicians of Egypt; and that just before the final deliverance of the saints, God would work powerfully for His people, and these modern magicians would be permitted to imitate the work of God.
That time will soon come,(It's now here) and we shall have to keep hold of the strong arm of Jehovah; for all these great signs and mighty wonders of the devil are designed to deceive God’s people and overthrow them. Our minds must be stayed upon God, and we must not fear the fear of the wicked, that is, fear what they fear, and reverence what they reverence, but be bold and valiant for the truth. Could our eyes be opened, we should see forms of evil angels around us, trying to invent some new way to annoy and destroy us. And we should also see angels of God guarding us from their power; for God’s watchful eye is ever over Israel for good, and He will protect and save His people, if they put their trust in Him. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him. {CET 170.1}
Said the angel, “Remember, thou art on the enchanted ground.” I saw that we must watch and have on the whole armor, and take the shield of faith, and then we shall be able to stand, and the fiery darts of the wicked cannot harm us. {CET 170.2}

The angel that strengthens the third angels message is proclaiming the visions of Mary as Satan appearing as an angel of light and this will soon be called blasphemy, and this is what attracts the wicked to persecute God's saints, which is when the latter rain falls and we proclaim the end time message with power proclaiming the Sabbath more fully.

I agree, not only for people, but mainly for what happened. What I see is two things that happens when Jacob arrived in Canaan.

1. He settle there to enter his rest for his long wilderness journey was over.
2. He build succoths for his animals.

What's odd is the most important of these events is himself entering the Lord's rest after 98 years of wrestling. However, the name came from the Lord and it is prophetic. So, I see that there's something else from this story that would reveal the reason why it was call Succoth.

Oh??? As far as the Bible reveal about what Jacob did and his walk during his first 98 years does not support what you are claiming above. Be careful James, it is a sin to extract from the Bible what is not there.

Here is what the Bible says :

A. Jacob fought Esau starting at the womb. Of course, he’s just a fetus then. But it does show that Jacob’s genetic makeup had a predisposition to fight his brother before he was even born.

B. Jacob started 3 main fights or contentions(2 with Esau and 1 with Laban). The Bible doesn’t tell us any fight Esau had instigated with Jacob; however it does show that Esau did fight back Jacob’s offenses.

C. For sure, the Bible does tell us that Jacob cared for the spiritual things more than Esau; however, Jacob was far from “hungering and thirsted after righteousness” as you worded. He used deceipt and cunning trickeries to get the birthright illegally.

D. The Bible tells us that he took advantage of his brother’s hunger to cut a deal

E. The deal was illegal for it was not Esau to give or to own the birthright. The birthright was to go to the eldest by law. Only the Lord had the authority to remove Esau from his birthright. Just because the Lord spoke the prophecy to Rebecca that Jacob was going to rule over Esau doesn’t give any man the right to fulfill the prophecy deceitfully and illegally. It was the Lord to disqualified Esau by His providential hands to prove Esau unworthy of the birthright and then give it to Jacob. All prophecies needs to be fulfilled by the Lord in His appointed time and in His ways(always according to the law) via His works.

F. Then we see Jacob going along with his mother’s plot to deceive Isaac in giving him the blessings. I think I don’t need to comment there, but that shows to me that Jacob did not have any “IMMENSE faith” not did he ”hungered and thirsted after righteousness” there either.

G. Because of his deceiving treacherous actions, he had to flee from his family and homeland immediately for Esau had valid reasons to be angry at him.


H. He arrived at Laban’s house without a dowry to get himself a wife. These details are not mentioned in the Bible but it is in the book of Jasher. Also we know that the Lord’s law talks about a dowry. Customs of the land of that time show the dowry was necessary. Not to enrich the father of the bride, but it was so the father could safe keep that money away to give insurance for the daughter in case something happens that she would find herself without a husband whether it be by loss(death) or divorcement. This was the purpose of the dowry by which in those days was the only way to protect the woman and her children.

So for Jacob, to come empty pocket, had to sell himself as a slave-laborer so that his labor would be banked to provide Rachel a dowry by the Lord’s law and by the custom of the land. Yes, what Laban did in giving him Leah instead Rachel was not right. But that was the Lord’s doing and His requirement of Jacob to work more years as a slave-laborer to train him further.

It was because of Jacob’s sins to Esau and his family that the Lord arranged circumstances so Jacob had to be sold to Laban. This is how the Father’s ways to correct us when we disobey His laws(=ways).

I. He left Laban with his children & grandchildren without letting him know and giving him a chance to say goodbye. Where was Jacob’s immense faith there? The Lord never told him to do that. Yes, the Lord did command him to return to his family’s land, but there wasn’t any instruction to escape Laban like he did. Here again he is being deceitful and using his .


I don’t see where in the Bible Jacob had this “IMMENSE faith in God” that you talk about in those beginning 98 years of his life. What the Bible describes is a man that contended with his brother & Laban all his life. It was the Lord’s mercy on Jacob by sending him an Angel that got him out of that rut he was in.

J. Tell me, where was Jacob’s faith that he didn’t even know that it was an angel of the Lord he was fighting? How embarrassing. He was so preoccupied with fear to be killed by Esau, that he thought the angel was a man coming to kill him(probably he imagined it was one of Esau’s men or Esau himself). He fought all night thinking it was a man. Only at day break when the angel touch his hip; he realized it was not a man. Some faith.

Then he held on a little longer demanding a blessing from the Lord. More of his trickeries and his fighting used on the Lord this time. Good thing the Lord was merciful and open his mind to the revelation that entitle Jacob to his new-name.

This new-name describes the Lord (Isra(rule)-el(Elohim)) not Jacob. His new name means that it is the Lord that rules and not Jacob; thus it is like a statement made about the Lord via the name. As long as you fight or try to rule the Lord and circumstances – you are by definition an usurper (anti-Christ) not in agreement with the Lord and not an Isra-el(someone that let the Lord rule) by definition. Anyone that let the Lord rule, are those who enter the Lord’s real rest by definition and become part of the body of overcomers named Isra-el who follow the circumstances that the Lord set in their lives and know He is behind those.

K. The Bible mentions that Jacob fought against the Lord. Is it a good thing to fight the Lord? No. never is and never was and never wll be. Jacob ended up cripple for the rest of his life as a reminder. Anyone fighting with the Lord is proof of their lack of faith. Those who are in faith, agrees with the Lord and become His amen on earth. We are call to fight with the Lord in His battles in spiritual warfare, but never fight against the Lord or men or authorities as Jacob was doing there.

L. Jacob was just like one of us who had a lot of things to learn in what constitute having faith in the Lord. James, you have blown Jacob as a super holy guy(contrary to what scriptures shows) with this "IMMENSE faith" and this “hunger and thirst for righteousness” by which you are saying that these entitled him to become an overcomer. This is pure righteousness by works. This whole concept is embracing being born with some super quality or by your own choices that pre-dispose you to be an overcomer or saved. If this is the case, then Christ died in vain. The story shows here that Jacob became an overcomer once he stop fighting man or the Lord and understood that the Lord is behind all circumstances including Esau & Laban. This is something all people can attain regardless of their level of faith, genetic disposition, and past evil records.

The bottom line is that the time of trouble has begun. The LITTLE TIME OF TROUBLE that will progress into the Bib time of trouble.

Did I state that right?

The USA has not formed an image to the beast. The Papal Roman Wound has not been healed. Sunday Laws are not being enforced. The sealing of the 144,000 has not started. The shaking of Seventh-day Adventists has not started. The little time of trouble has not started. Probation has not closed. The seven last plagues are not being poured out. Jacob's time of trouble has not started. The great time of trouble has not started.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In ancient Israel, what determined the beginning of the year, the need of an intercalary month and, consequently, the date of the feasts, was the barley harvest.

Do tell.

Well that would mean that one couldn't say some thing started in September of this year or in October, but the year would start at different times at different places. Unless one were to hold Jerusalem sacred and need to send people over there to find out when the "year" starts.

Sometimes, we need to meditate on the word of God, think deeply about matters, search diligently within ourselves for the answers we seek.

///

The success of the gospel in all the world was due to its independence of culture. It carried only two rites with it: baptism and the communion. And it's message was one of love and faith: the principal example of which was Jesus Christ. Beyond that were only the Pharisaic demands of a foreign people. Often times, Christianity got bogged down by unnecessary and weighty matters, contrary to the light, lithe and urgent message Jesus intended for the world to be made manifest through the life of His evangelists.

///

Yes, it would mean that, and this was precisely what happened - that is, messengers were sent to Jerusalem to inquire as to the beginning of the year (and of each month).

Excellent post, dedication.

Bro MM

In Revelation 13 the second beast is the image beast
But when the descriptions of the papal beast (13:1-10) are compared to (13:11:18) the beasts do not look anything alike.
From the obvious differences, some might conclude that the image beast (second beast) does not look like the first beast (papal beast).

But though the description of the first beast is not given in the same terminology as the second beast, the second appears as the first. How so?

The papacy is clothed in lamblike garb.



The second beast presents itself as being lamblike, as does the papacy.

The second beast is depicted as having 2 horns. The papacy now has 2 horns (popes: Francis & Benedict the retired).

The image to the beast is now formed on that level.
Is it completely formed? No

Is there more to come? YES

Has the Papal Roman Wound been healed?

John-Paul II received his wound and it was healed-he survived and he died 42-monghs after 9/11/01. And in the interim Reagan healed the papal wound by recognizing JPII as head of state. and Bush I recognized him as the "world's moral leader" which was akin to making the pope the head of all the churches.

Are Sunday Laws being enforced?

Not the universal Sunday Law. But there are pockets where Sunday Laws are being enforced. Waiting for Sunday Law enforcement is like the people in Noah's day waiting for the rain to start before they see the necessity to go into the ark.

Has the sealing of the 144,000 started?




Has the shaking of Seventh-day Adventists started?




Has the little time of trouble started?



9/11/01 should teach us something:



The wheat and tears grow together until the harvest. Likewise when the Bridegroom comes the foolish virgins and the wise virgins are separated one from another.

His Child, as always, thank you for sharing your views. I appreciate the kind and loving way you share.

I appreciate the thought provoking questions you ask.

By God's grace we must always remember not to ever join ranks with the "accuser" of the brethren. As a sinner, I long to help other saints toward the kingdom without ever discouraging even one.

Sabbath
blessings
HCH

We are not to sit and watch/wait for such laws.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

"The present truth--the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus--has not yet been sounded as it must be." We must experience the truth. Then we can proclaim it. I suspect there are more people alive on earth nowadays who have no knowledge of "the present truth" than when Ellen White wrote the above.

EGW also made a statement to the affect that if we put things off for another day, we may be a day too late.

"We are not to sit and watch/wait for such laws"

Amen brother , so true. We did a post awhile back called "The Sunday Law Hoodwink".

http://godsloveandlaw.com/2013/01/26/the-sunday-law-hoodwink/

I don't believe this is correct. Looking at relevant excerpts from Revelation 11-14 we see the following-

11 "And I beheld another beast..."
12 "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him..."
14 "...saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast..."

Following the text alone, without interpretation, the second beast is not the same entity as the first beast. The second beast is also not itself the image beast, but tells people to make the image beast.

This is an important distinction because, as we see in verse 15, the image beast acts as a distinct entity as may be considered a third beast. Depending on which one you read as "he" in verse 16, it could be read as saying the image beast is the one to force the mark of the beast on people.

??? The Bible doesn't say Jacob was a man with an “IMMENSE faith in God” before He overcame. Show me the supported texts that made you say this.

It looks like the discussion has not even considered the time of trouble of Jacob yet? Don't you think it is common sense to first understand Jacob's trouble recorded in Genesis before we try to figure out what will be the end time of Jacob's trouble?

Hi Josh,

I don't know where your thought "the second beast is not the same entity as the first beast" came from in relation to my comment. I implied no such assertion.



I study the papacy and America in its current position and see very clearly an image beast. The only thing lacking is for America to push Sunday sacredness and all the trappings of the Mark of the Beast.

I will admit that it was late and I was half asleep when I read your post, but it's mostly from this quote-
This comes across to me as a suggestion that the second beast is secretly the first beast in different clothing.

Now that I've reread your post many times I don't think that's what you meant. I don't think you're that far off, but I disagree that the first beast is under any requirement to match the appearance of the second beast. The image beast is separate from the second beast. It's described in Revelation as being made at the direction of the second beast and as an image "of" and "to" the first beast. It's the image beast that looks like the first beast, not the first beast that changes its appearance to that of the second beast.




What makes the image beast an image of and to the first beast is that it imitates the behavior of the first beast, which is to say that a religious power uses civil power to enforce its will upon all people. The image beast seems to be apostate Protestants who, having accepted the Pope's Sabbath instead of God's Sabbath, use their influence over the civil powers to force people to receive the mark of the beast.

I believe Jacob's trouble is during this time, which is still future from now, but probably not by much.

That is what I understand Jacob's trouble to be. Consider the following from Great Controversy-

Also from Patriarchs and Prophets, describing that night-

Jacob's trouble was not simply that he faced hardship or danger, but that he faced the guilt of his past and the fear that he was not worthy to stand before God.

He didn't repent before he wrestle with the angel. The Bible make no mention of that nor do I believe it is that the reason he got the victory.

This was his prayer before he wrestled with the angel:

AV Gn 32:11 Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, [and] the mother with the children.

He was still in fear while wrestling. Actually all night long he thought he was wrestling with a man.

AV Gn 32:24 . And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

The Bible doesn't say who Jacob thought it was but we know that Esau was coming for him and he was afraid for his life and for his family. So it is not a long stretch that Jacob thought he was wrestling with either one of Esau's men or Esau Himself.

It's only when the angel touch his hip that he realized it was an angel and not a man. Then Jacob kept on holding on to the Angel until he received a blessing. Kinda demanding don't you think? Jacob was still the same Jacob that took what he wanted by trickery. He hasn't repented yet.

Despite of Jacob, the Lord did grant him a blessing for the Lord had made a unconditional promise-covenant with him. So He gave Jacob the biggest BLESSING ever! And that is what any Christian has to have this same revelation-victory-blessing to be given the same name ISRAEL.