Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character?

The quote you posted is truncated. It ends with an ellipse. Which is why I posted quite a few other places where she describes Paul's experience and the expression "I die daily". When considered as a whole, it is obvious she believed Paul subdued his natural, selfish inclinations and did the will of God. He refused to act out the clamorings of his fallen flesh nature. Paul, like everyone else, possessed defects, weaknesses, and imperfections. While abiding in Jesus, however, he was empowered to subdue them. He refused to act them out.

Right in the common walks of life is where self is to be denied and kept in subordination. Paul could say: "I die daily." It is the daily dying to self in the little transactions of life that makes us overcomers. {CCh 80.2}

Every soul must battle against inclination. Christ came not to save men in their sins, but from their sins. He has made it possible for us to possess a holy character; do not, then, be content with defects and deformities. But while we are to seek earnestly for perfection of character, we must remember that sanctification is not the work of a moment, but of a lifetime. Said Paul, “I die daily.” Day by day the work of overcoming must go forward. Every day we are to resist temptation, and gain the victory over selfishness in all its forms. Day by day we should cherish love and humility, and cultivate in ourselves all those excellencies of character which will please God and fit us for the blessed society of heaven. {HS 181.2}

Sanctification is the work, not of a day or of a year, but of a lifetime. The struggle for conquest over self, for holiness and heaven, is a lifelong struggle. . . . Paul's sanctification was the result of a constant conflict with self. He said, "I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). . . . It is by unceasing endeavor that we maintain the victory over the temptations of Satan. Christian integrity must be sought with resistless energy, and maintained with a resolute fixedness of purpose. {HP 26.3}

There is a science of Christianity to be mastered--a science as much deeper, broader, higher, than any human science as the heavens are higher than the earth. The mind is to be disciplined, educated, trained; for we are to do service for God in ways that are not in harmony with inborn inclination. There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Our hearts must be educated to become steadfast in God. We are to form habits of thought that will enable us to resist temptation. By a life of holy endeavor and firm adherence to the right the children of God are to seal their destiny. {HP 26.4}

On one occasion I spoke in reference to genuine sanctification, which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. While in Oregon I had been shown that some of the young churches of the New England Conference were in danger through the blighting influence of what is called sanctification. Some would become deceived by this doctrine, while others, knowing its deceptive influence, would realize their danger and turn from it. Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. Said he, "I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. {LS 237.1}

The life of the apostle Paul was a constant conflict with self. He said, "I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did God's will, however crucifying to his nature. {MH 452.4}

At the close of his life of conflict, looking back over its struggles and triumphs, he could say, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day." 2 Timothy 4:7, 8. {MH 453.1}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. In this warfare there is no release; the effort must be continuous and persevering. It is by unceasing endeavor that we maintain the victory over the temptations of Satan. Christian integrity must be sought with resistless energy and maintained with a resolute fixedness of purpose. {MH 453.2}

No one will be borne upward without stern, persevering effort in his own behalf. All must engage in this warfare for themselves; no one else can fight our battles. Individually we are responsible for the issues of the struggle; though Noah, Job, and Daniel were in the land they could deliver neither son nor daughter by their righteousness. {MH 453.3}

The Lord requires us to be submissive to His will, subdued by His Spirit, and sanctified to His service. Selfishness must be put away, and we must overcome every defect in our characters as Christ overcame. In order to accomplish this work, we must die daily to self. Said Paul: "I die daily." He had a new conversion every day, took an advance step toward heaven. To gain daily victories in the divine life is the only course that God approves. The Lord is gracious, of tender pity, and plenteous in mercy. He knows our needs and weaknesses, and He will help our infirmities if we only trust in Him and believe that He will bless us and do great things for us. {4T 66.4}

I spoke again about thirty minutes in reference to genuine sanctification which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. Paul's sanctification was a daily conflict with self. Said he, "I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). His will and his desires daily conflicted with duty and the will of God. In the plan of not following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. The reason many in this age of the world make no greater advancement in the divine life is because they interpret their own will to be just what God wills. They do exactly as they desire and flatter themselves they are conforming to God's will. They please self in everything and have no conflict with self. {TDG 251.2}

Many battle well at first against selfish desires for pleasure and ease. They are sincere and earnest, but grow weary of protracted effort of daily death, ceaseless turmoil with resisting Satan's temptations, and indolence seems inviting, death too self-repulsive, and they close the drowsy eyes and drop under temptation instead of resisting it. Fashionable sins, pride of life, do not seem so very repulsive. {TDG 251.3}

Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. "I die daily," he said. Every day his will and his desires conflicted with duty and the will of God. But instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. If we would press forward to the mark of our high calling in Christ Jesus, we must show that we are emptied of all self, and supplied with the golden oil of grace. God is dealing with us through his providence. From eternity he has chosen us to be his obedient children. He gave his Son to die for us, that we might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, cleansed from all the littleness of self. Now he requires of us a personal work, a personal self-surrender. We are to be controlled by the Holy Spirit. God can be honored only when we who profess to believe in him are conformed to his image. We are to represent to the world the beauty of holiness, and we shall never enter the gates of the city of God until we perfect a Christlike character. If we, with trust in God, strive for sanctification, we shall receive it. Then, as witnesses for Christ, we may make known what the grace of God has wrought in us. {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 3}

Paul's sanctification was the result of a constant conflict with self. He said: "I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did God's will, however crucifying to his own nature. {8T 313.3}

The Lord would have us submissive to his will, and sanctified to his service. Selfishness must be put away, with every other defect in our characters. There must be a daily death to self. Paul had this experience. He said, "I die daily." Every day he had a new conversion; every day he took an advance step toward Heaven. We, too, must gain daily victories in the divine life, if we would enjoy the favor of God. {ST, March 3, 1887 par. 18}

True conviction of sin, real heart sorrow because of wickedness, death to self, the daily overcoming of defects of character, and the new birth—these, represented as old things, Paul says had passed away, and all things had become new. Such a work many know nothing of. They grafted the truth into their natural hearts, and then went on as before, manifesting the same unhappy traits of character. {OFC 300.5}

They were ungovernable, unsubdued, unregenerated, and unconsecrated . . . They had never viewed themselves in the light in which Paul viewed himself, which led him to see the moral defects in his character. They had never been slain by the law of God, and had not separated themselves from their impurities and defilement. {2T 554}

No man can gain eternal life without holiness; hence the question of deepest interest with each of us should be, "Am I meeting the requirements of God? Am I doing his will? Am I forming a character that he can approve?" And where shall we find the will of God expressed, except in the moral law, that law which has been given to us as the standard of righteousness, to reveal to us the defects in our moral character; that law which Paul declares to be holy, just, and good? {BEcho, June 1, 1887 par. 2}

While we point the sinner to Jesus as the one who can take away sin, we must explain to him what sin is, and show him that he can be saved from his sins, but not in them. He must be made to realize that "sin is the transgression of the law." Paul made the inquiry, many years after the death of Christ, "Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Thus Paul exalts the moral law. When this law is practically carried out in every-day life, it is found indeed to be the wisdom of God. It serves to detect sin. It discovers the defects in the moral character, and shows sin to be exceeding sinful, revealing it in all hideousness. Through obedience to its requirements, Christian character is perfected. {BEcho, April 16, 1894 par. 11}

The law of God is a perfect standard of character. It shows to every man the excellence which he must possess in order to be saved. God has held up before us this great detector, that all may see whom he will commend, and whom he will condemn. The law revealed to Paul his defects of character; but he did not seek to abolish the law because he stood condemned before it. He said, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came [home to his conscience], sin [in his character] revived, and I died. . . . Wherefore the law [that worked so sharply against the natural propensities] is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." To his quickened conscience, sin became exceedingly sinful. This is the work of the law and the Holy Spirit, that convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. {HM, October 1, 1897 par. 10}

Now, while we point the sinner to Jesus Christ as the one who can take away sin, we must explain to him what sin is, and show him the necessity of being saved from his sins, not in them. He must be made to feel that he must cease to transgress the law of God, which is to cease to sin. Paul makes the inquiry many years after the death of Christ, "Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Thus saying, Paul exalts the moral law. When this law is practically carried out in every-day life, it is found indeed to be the wisdom of God. It serves to detect sin. It discovers the defects in the moral character, and in the light of the law sin becomes exceeding sinful, revealing its true character in all its hideousness. {RH, September 27, 1881 par. 16}

The law of God given from Sinai is a copy of the mind and will of the Infinite God. It is sacredly revered by the holy angels. Obedience to its requirements will perfect Christian character, and restore man, through Christ, to his condition before the fall. {RH, September 27, 1881 par. 17}

We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

Before Paul experienced genuine conversion to God, selfishness controlled his mind and soul. His estimate of everything was a wrong estimate, for self-aggrandizement and selfishness had an influence upon his entire life and character. He praised his own zeal. He was carrying a mirror with him, not a mirror in which to discover the defects of his character, but a mirror in which he might admire himself. Everything was turned into self-glorification; but after Jesus was revealed to him, his lofty opinion of himself was gone. He saw nothing in which to glory, save the cross of Christ. The Lord brought Paul over a path that was difficult to travel, but the apostle saw in it precious opportunities to prove his fidelity to Jesus, whom he had persecuted in the person of his saints. {ST, June 1, 1888 par. 7}

As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself "from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God {UL 231.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

I asked, If this is the same as subduing sinful tendencies, could you say the same about Christ?

Selfishness must be put away, and we must overcome every defect in our characters as Christ overcame. In order to accomplish this work, we must die daily to self. Said Paul: "I die daily." He had a new conversion every day, took an advance step toward heaven. To gain daily victories in the divine life is the only course that God approves.

If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the blood-washed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering, in the name of Jesus, overcome as He overcame. {Con 66.1}

We are called upon to overcome in this life as Christ overcame. Heaven has provided us with abundant opportunities and privileges, so that we may overcome as Christ overcame, and sit down with Him on His throne. But in order to be overcomers, there must be in our lives no petting of fleshly inclinations. All selfishness must be cut out by the roots (Letter 156, 1900). {6BC 1112.6}

When a man is earnestly engaged day by day in overcoming the defects in his character, he is cherishing Christ in his soul-temple; the light of Christ is in him. Under the bright beams of the light of Christ's countenance his entire being becomes elevated and ennobled. He has the peace of heaven in his soul. Many give loose rein to passion, avarice, selfishness, and deception, and all the time excuse themselves and lay the blame on the circumstances which brought around the trial to themselves. This has been your case. God permitted your surroundings to exist to develop character. But you could have made your surroundings; for by resisting or enduring temptation, circumstances are controlled by the might of the will in the name of Jesus. This is overcoming as Christ overcame. "This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." {4T 346.1}

You may feel that you cannot meet the approval of heaven. You may say, "I was born with a natural tendency toward this evil, and I cannot overcome." But every provision has been made by our heavenly Father whereby you may be able to overcome every unholy tendency. You are to overcome even as Christ overcame in your behalf. He says, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Revelation 3:21). It was sin that imperiled the human family; and before man was created the provision was made that if man failed to bear the test, Jesus would become His sacrifice and surety, that through faith in Him, man might be reconciled to God, for Christ was the Lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). Christ died on Calvary that man might have power to overcome his natural tendencies to sin. {YRP 350.3}

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." He speaks of Himself as well as the Father when He speaks of omnipotent power, and claims for Himself perfect righteousness. In Christ dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world untainted by the corruptions that surrounded Him. We also are to become partakers of that fulness, and only in this way shall we be enabled to overcome as Christ overcame. {BEcho, November 1, 1892 par. 8}

We want to be right, to do right, and then be cheerful and happy, believing that the Lord will bless us every day while we fight the good fight of faith, overcoming appetite and passion in the oft-repeated conflict, overcoming as Christ overcame, by meeting the enemy with, 'It is written.' {MM, September 1, 1891 par. 3}

But life will not be sacrificed in the struggle to overcome depraved appetites. And it is a certainty that unless we do overcome as Christ overcame we cannot have a seat with him upon his throne. {RH, March 18, 1875 par. 11}

John pointed the people to the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. He said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). There is a great deal in that "taketh away." The question is, shall we keep on sinning as though it were an impossibility for us to overcome? How are we to overcome? As Christ overcame. He prayed to His heavenly Father; we can do the same, and that is the only way. Then, we are to overcome something, for it is stated that those who shall see Him in His beauty shall be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. {9MR 76.1}

It is by overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil that any student comes into possession of that knowledge that gives him access to the tree of life. We must all learn that we must overcome as Christ overcame in our behalf. All pride is sin, and must be expelled from the soul. Christ came to cut us loose from the originator of sin. He came to give us a mastery over the power of the destroyer, and to save us from the sting of the serpent. Through his imparted righteousness he would place all human beings where they will be on vantage ground. He came to this earth and lived the law of God that man might stand in his God-given manhood, having complete mastery over his natural inclination to self-indulgence and to the selfish ideas and principles which tarnish the soul. The Physician of soul and body, he will give wisdom and complete victory over warring lusts. He will provide every facility, that man may perfect a completeness of character in every respect. {7MR 320.1}

When Christ would define the advancement possible for us, He said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This advancement is not gained without effort. The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, can not inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the formed habits, must be given up. {ST, May 18, 1904 par. 7}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We can not, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that struggle for the mastery. We can not overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He can not work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {ST, May 18, 1904 par. 8}

But a warfare against self, subduing the desires and affections of his own heart, and searching out and controlling the secret motives of the heart, is a more difficult warfare. How unwilling is he to be faithful in such a contest as this! The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. The holy life and character of Christ is a faithful example. His confidence in His heavenly Father was unlimited. His obedience and submission were unreserved and perfect. He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister to others. He came not to do His own will, but the will of Him that sent Him. In all things He submitted Himself to Him that judgeth righteously. From the lips of the Saviour of the world were heard these words: "I can of Mine own self do nothing." {3T 106.2}

Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give, to His human nature, a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {6MR 341.2}

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {6MR 341.3}

The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in human nature which we now have. {6MR 341.4}

The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, could only keep the commandments of God, in the same way that humanity can keep them. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. {6MR 342.1}

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 3:18. The glory he mentioned is character, therefore by thinking and talking of Jesus we become charmed with His character, and by faith we become changed from character to character. "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." "Ye are the light of the world . . . Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." We must practice the example of Christ, bearing in mind His Sonship and His humanity. It was not God that was tempted in the wilderness, nor a god that was to endure the contradiction of sinners against himself. It was the Majesty of heaven who became a man--humbled Himself to our human nature. {6MR 342.2}

We are not to serve God as if we were not human, but we are to serve Him in the nature we have, that has been redeemed by the Son of God; through the righteousness of Christ we shall stand before God pardoned, and as though we had never sinned. We will never gain strength in considering what we might do if we were angels. We are to turn in faith to Jesus Christ, and show our love to God through obedience to His commands. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus says, "follow me." "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Jesus leads the way. Do not wait and continue in disobedience, hoping circumstances may change making it easier for you to obey. Go forward for you know the will of God. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." {6MR 342.3}

Why did I get the feeling that Roseangela thought you thought differently?

Jesus did not wait to reveal certain cultivated sinful traits of character until a better time.

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

The minds of many are clouded with unbelief because those who unite with the church as the chosen of God do not reveal the virtues that are the fruits of the Spirit. Joining the church is not a sure evidence that a man has joined himself to Christ. The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {12MR 51.1}

Above I wrote - "Jesus revealed to him his cultivated sinful traits of character in a new light."

You did not address the quotes I posted above. Those quotes, and many others like them, make it clear Ellen White believed people crucify all of their cultivated sinful traits of character when they experience conversion in God's appointed way.

Those who gain eternal life must bring every appetite under the control of the Spirit of God. Then will they have power to run the race set before them. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 6} The Christian must lay aside all selfishness, living and working for the good of others. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 7} The Christian must lay aside all self-seeking. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 9}

Only the power of God can banish self-seeking. This change is the sign of His work. When the faith we accept destroys self-seeking and pretense, when it leads us to seek God's glory and not our own, we may know that it is of the right order. "Father, glorify Thy name" was the key-note of Christ's life, and if we follow Him, this will be the key-note of our life. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 11}

The Christian must lay aside doubt. Not one that in penitence and faith has claimed His protection will Christ permit to pass under the enemy's power. The Saviour is by the side of His tempted ones. With Him there can be no such thing as failure, loss, impossibility, or defeat; we can do all things through Him who strengthens us. When temptations and trials come, do not wait to adjust all the difficulties, but look to Jesus, your Helper. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 12}

Envy, malice, evil-thinking, evil-speaking, covetousness,--these are weights that the Christian must lay aside if he runs successfully the race for immortality. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 15}

Envy, malice, evil thinking, evilspeaking, covetousness--these are weights that the Christian must lay aside if he would run successfully the race for immortality. Every habit or practice that leads into sin and brings dishonor upon Christ must be put away, whatever the sacrifice. The blessing of heaven cannot attend any man in violating the eternal principles of right. One sin cherished is sufficient to work degradation of character and to mislead others. {AA 312.1}

"Love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous" (1 Peter 3:8). True moral worth does not seek to have a place for itself by evil thinking and evil speaking, by demeriting others. All envy, all jealousy, all evil speaking, with all unbelief, must be put away from God's children. {HP 178.5}

God has a variety of workers, and He treats all impartially. He desires us to change the past order of things. He desires us to cease our evil thinking and evil speaking, and to put away our hasty words. We are to part forever with our cruel thoughts and feelings, and love as brethren. We are no longer to act like unmanageable, undisciplined children. "As He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation." Give up now and forever all wrong habits. Take yourself to task. Discipline yourself. Lift the cross and deny self. Control yourself. Then there will be an opportunity for Christ to let His mind be in you. Your words will be sweet and pure. You will give no place to the enemy by giving way to evil thinking and evil speaking,--his most successful means of keeping the church in a weak, unconverted state. {AUCR, April 15, 1905 par. 8}

When the latter rain is poured out, the church will be clothed with power for its work; but the church as a whole will never receive this until its members shall put away from among them, envy, evil-surmisings, and evil-speaking. Those who cherish these sins know not the blessed experience of love; they are not awake to the fact that the Lord is testing and proving their love for him by the attitude they assume toward one another. Christ says to us, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." When this commandment is obeyed, envy, evil-speaking, evil-surmising, and evil-thinking will not be indulged; they will have no part in the formation of character. {RH, October 6, 1896 par. 9}

Sin perpetuates itself. How cruel then it is for those who claim to have a knowledge of God to show that they are not doers of his word. They indulge in evil thinking, criticizing, and accusing, and in this way they misrepresent Christ's character. They are false witnesses, just as were the Jews. I pray that the vision of the soul may be sanctified, that the sin of accusing and criticizing may be put away, as a sin that crucifies afresh the Son of God, and puts him to an open shame. The Holy Spirit must work in our hearts. Let no false pride, no pharisaism, be cherished. Rather let us seek for the spirit of a little child. If we knew, if we only knew, how the Lord regards those who indulge so freely in evil surmising, we would fear to manifest such, a spirit. These surmisings are a repast from the enemy, a banquet of his own preparing. Those who give place to them have an experience in accordance with them; for the mind is built up from the food given it. {RH, October 17, 1899 par. 7}

My brethren and sisters, are we willing to leave self out of the question? Are our energies spent in the Master's service? Are our voices often raised in earnest supplication for power from on high? Is our faith pure and strong? Have we put away all prejudice, all evil thinking and evil speaking? Are our affections set on things above, or are they twining about the things of this earth? Are our eyes open to see the needs of those around us? Can God call us faithful watchmen? {RH, November 12, 1914 par. 8}

So, it sounds like we agree hereditary, dormant, unknown, uncultivated, defective sinful traits of character do not count as sin, and will not count against people in judgment.

Jesus had no need to reveal to Paul his cultivated sinful traits of character in a new light after he experienced conversion in God's appointed way.

But Paul, like everyone else, possessed dormant, unknown, uncultivated, defective traits of character. Jesus would, from time to time, reveal certain of them to Paul in advance of upcoming circumstances that would bring Paul face to face with them for the first time. By so doing, Jesus worked to prepare Paul to successfully recognize and resist them.

MM wrote: "Newborn believers, people who complete the "long, patient, protracted process of conversion" in God's appointed way (as opposed to all other ways) are free from "all selfishness," "all evil thinking," and "all evil speaking".

The only reason we aren't held accountable for sins not yet revealed to us, is NOT because we are free from all selfishness and evil thinking, but because Christ's merits and blood cover us.

In other words 99.999999% of Christians (including Adventists) are not converted.

It seems to me that you are denying that the decision to renounce all sin and crucify self, and to fill the mind with pure thoughts and to daily walk with Christ and depend on His strength, which involves a complete "about face" in ones life, isn't yet conversion, and that conversion doesn't take place until perfection is reached. (free from "all selfishness," "all evil thinking).

Rosangela, the multitude of passages posted on this thread make it clear Paul died to sin, self, and Satan the moment he experienced conversion in God's appointed way. Jesus did not wait until a later date to reveal to Paul certain cultivated sinful traits of character.

So you equate the renouncing of sin and self and full commitment to serve only Christ as no longer having any more selfishness or sin within our characters that still need to be revealed? What is growth in holiness?

And were God to reveal the full scope of our selfishness in one swoop we would be totally overwhelmed . . .

It's not true that these unrecognized entanglements are not being practiced and cultivated, for they are.

God's people are in danger of being separated from the Sun of Righteousness. "This is the will of God," the apostle says, "even your sanctification." This sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, entire conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to him through obedience to the truth. Our conscience must be purged from dead works to serve the living God. If our lives are conformed to the life of Christ through the sanctification of mind, soul, and body, our example will have a powerful influence on the world. We are not perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglement of self and sin, and go on unto perfection. "We all, with open face, beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all who have true faith. Shall we not anoint our eyes with eye-salve, that we may discern the wonderful things God has for us? {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 2}

Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. "I die daily," he said. Every day his will and his desires conflicted with duty and the will of God. But instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. If we would press forward to the mark of our high calling in Christ Jesus, we must show that we are emptied of all self, and supplied with the golden oil of grace. God is dealing with us through his providence. From eternity he has chosen us to be his obedient children. He gave his Son to die for us, that we might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, cleansed from all the littleness of self. Now he requires of us a personal work, a personal self-surrender. We are to be controlled by the Holy Spirit. God can be honored only when we who profess to believe in him are conformed to his image. We are to represent to the world the beauty of holiness, and we shall never enter the gates of the city of God until we perfect a Christlike character. If we, with trust in God, strive for sanctification, we shall receive it. Then, as witnesses for Christ, we may make known what the grace of God has wrought in us. {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 3}

God is leading out a people to stand in perfect unity upon the platform of eternal truth. Christ gave himself for the world, that he might "purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." This refining process is designed to purge his people from all unrighteousness and the spirit of discord and contention, that they may build up instead of tearing down, and consecrate their energies to the great work before them. God designs that his people shall come into the unity of the faith. In his prayer for his followers Christ said: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 4}

The soul is exalted and transformed by dwelling, not on self and on the sorrows and hardships that surround us, but on the glories of the eternal world. Unbroken communion with God gives increased knowledge of his truth and will, and of the soul's susceptibilities and powers; and the result will be unselfish motives and right traits of character. There will be no darkness or gloom to reflect to others. More of Heaven in men on earth would make religion attractive, and win souls to Christ. {ST, March 5, 1885 par. 11}

Christ came not to be ministered unto, but to minister; and when his love reigns in the heart, we shall follow his example. If we keep uppermost in our minds the unkind and unjust acts of others, we shall find it impossible to love them as Christ has loved us; for there are few persons who do not on close acquaintance reveal unamiable traits of character. Even the best of us have these unlovely traits; and in selecting friends we should choose those who will not be driven away from us when they learn that we are not perfect. Mutual forbearance is called for. We should love and respect one another notwithstanding the faults and imperfections that we cannot help seeing; for this is the Spirit of Christ. Humility and self-distrust should be cultivated, and a patient tenderness with the faults of others. This will kill out all narrowing selfishness and make us large-hearted and generous. {ST, March 5, 1885 par. 12}

If you have perplexities and troubles--and these are the common lot of mankind--do not tell them to others, and thus shadow their path. Do not go for help to every source but the right one; but tell Jesus everything; take it to the Lord in prayer, and then believe that he accepts you and your burden. Faith is the gift of God, but the power to exercise it is yours. A single earnest expression of faith strengthens faith; but every expression of doubt confirms doubt, and helps to gather about your soul the dark shadows of unbelief. Then do not open your soul to Satan's temptations by cherishing and expressing the doubts that he insinuates. Talk faith and courage. Press to the light; and bright beams from the Sun of Righteousness will dispel clouds and darkness, and sweet peace will pervade the soul. {ST, March 5, 1885 par. 13}

Every child that is not carefully and prayerfully disciplined will be unhappy in this probationary time and will form such unlovely traits of character that the Lord cannot unite them with His family in heaven. {CG 213.3}

They forget that Christ has said, "Without Me ye can do nothing." John 15:5. They walk apart from Christ, their life is not pervaded by His grace, and the characteristics of self are revealed. Their service is marred by desire for supremacy, and the harsh, unlovely traits of the unsubdued heart. Here is one of the chief secrets of failure in Christian work. This is why its results are often so meager. {COL 52.1}

My brethren in the gospel ministry, let us feed the flock of God. Let us bring encouragement and cheerfulness to every heart. Let us turn the eyes of our brethren and sisters away from the unlovely traits of character possessed by nearly everyone, and teach them to behold Christ, the One altogether lovely, the Chiefest among ten thousand.... {Ev 346.3}

Many who claim to be children of God are children of the wicked one, and have all his passions, his prejudices, his evil spirit, his unlovely traits of character. But the soul that is indeed transformed will not despise any one whom Christ has purchased with His own blood. Men may have both hereditary and cultivated prejudices, but when the love of Jesus fills the heart, and they become one with Christ, they will have the same spirit that He had. {SW 13}

We have no time to spend in cultivating and cherishing our unlovely traits of character. The hour of grace is fast passing. Christ has borne long with the world, but the cup of long-deferred wrath is fast filling. God has given us light, great light. Have we walked in the light? Have we lived the light? Have not some, fully satisfied with their own unsanctified, irreligious lives, walked directly contrary to the light? {HM, November 1, 1897 par. 8}

The beautiful mansions are opened to those who have practiced self-denial, who have brought their wills into subjection to the will of God, and in life and character have conformed to the divine standard. They may have by nature fierce tempers and grave faults, and these may have been fostered and increased by wrong methods of training; but if through the grace of Christ they subdue their unlovely traits, and fight the good fight of faith, they will receive the overcomer's rich reward. {ST, January 8, 1885 par. 12}

Even among professing Christians there are persons who are always on the watch for some thing at which to take offense. If their friends are absorbed in matters that require their attention, and have no time to devote to them, they feel slighted and injured. In the family they seize upon some unfortunate word that has been dropped, and take offense at it, as though it were designed to hurt and disparage them. If these continue to cherish such unlovely traits of character, they cannot expect to be loved. Their lives are like the gorgeous flowers which possess no fragrance. Much to be preferred is the simple, unpretending blossom that blesses with its sweet odor those who come in contact with it. {YI, June 10, 1897 par. 8}

Character will always be tested. If Christ dwells in us, day by day and year by year, we shall grow into a noble heroism. This is our allotted task, but it can not be accomplished without help from Jesus, without resolute decision, unwavering purpose, continual watchfulness, and unceasing prayer. Each has a personal battle to fight; each must win his way through struggles and discouragements. Those who decline the struggle, lose the strength and joy of victory. No one, not even God, can make our characters noble or our lives useful unless we make the effort necessary on our part. We must put features of beauty into our lives. We must seek to expel the unlovely traits, while God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure. {YI, October 29, 1907 par. 13}

Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and He does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the sin bearer. . . . Let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition (MS 56, 1900). {7BC 941.7}

You deceive yourself with the idea that these unamiable traits do not exist, until you are brought into positions which make you act and speak in a manner that reveals them to all. You are not willing to see and confess that it is your carnal nature which has not yet been transformed and brought into subjection to Christ. You have not yet crucified self. {2T 572.1}

Those only who are converted will enter into the kingdom of heaven. What would we think of Christ manifesting no warmth of love, no disposition to help those in need? Yet many who profess to be His followers are cold and unsympathetic. They make little effort to help those with whom they come in contact. They are not transformed in character. Their words show that they are not converted. They have none of Christ's tenderness. Their unamiable traits of character, their lack of sympathy, show that they have lost their first love. They need to repent and be converted; for Christ is greatly dishonored by their selfishness. The Saviour does not abide in their hearts, or they would be touched with the feeling of others' infirmities. They are self-centered, harsh, unaccommodating. {PUR, February 9, 1905 par. 5}

If, when Christ comes the second time, they are as they are now,--harsh in words, coarse in spirit, destitute of Christlike love,--their candlestick will be removed out of its place. They will not be ready to meet their Lord. O, that they would feel the necessity of putting on the Lord Jesus! O, that they would seek to understand what is due from man to his fellow man! {PUR, February 9, 1905 par. 6}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects.{RH, January 18, 1881 par. 2}

he nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. {AA 561.2}

"The Lord Jesus came to earth that he might recreate the image of God in man. He says to the repenting sinner, "A new heart will I give you." "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." He who abides in Christ, and has Christ abiding in his heart by faith, cannot retain the same unlovely traits of character as were made manifest in his life before he had a connection with Christ. Christ came to save men from their sins, not in their sins." {ST, August 21, 1893 par. 2}

The gospel seed often falls among thorns and noxious weeds; and if there is not a moral transformation in the human heart, if old habits and practices and the former life of sin are not left behind, if the attributes of Satan are not expelled from the soul, the wheat crop will be choked. The thorns will come to be the crop, and will kill out the wheat. {COL 50.3}

All self-indulgence is to be cut away from their lives. Before they can really understand the meaning of true sanctification and of conformity to the will of Christ, they must, by co-operating with God, obtain the mastery over wrong habits and practices. {CG 396.3}

Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. {CCh 297.3}

John says, "The light"--Christ--"shineth in darkness," that is, in the world, "and the darkness comprehended it not. . . . But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The reason why the unbelieving world are not saved is that they do not choose to be enlightened. The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

Whatever may be our temperament, we are to form a character after the divine Pattern; we have no excuse for retaining the mold and superscription of our nature; for Christ has died that we may have his mold and superscription. We cannot retain self and yet be filled with the fullness of God. We must be emptied of self. If heaven is gained by us at last, it will be only through the renunciation of self, and the receiving of the mind of Christ. Pride and self-sufficiency must be crucified, and the vacuum supplied with the Spirit and power of God. Are we willing to pay the price required of us for eternal life? Are we ready to sit down and count the cost, and conclude that heaven is worth the sacrifice of dying to self, of having our will brought into perfect conformity with the will of God? Until we are willing, the transforming grace of God will not be manifested upon us. When we present our emptied nature to God, he will by his Holy Spirit supply the vacuum made by the renunciation of self, and give us of his fullness. The Lord would not have us perish. He would have us consecrate to his service all there is of us; for he desires to bless us more than we desire to be blessed. He would have us abide in Christ, receive his blessing, and diffuse it to others while we live, that we may enjoy a blessed eternity. Life is short, but eternity is endless. {ST, November 21, 1892 par. 4}

Young men and young women need more of the grace of Christ, in order that they may bring the principles of Christianity into their daily life. The grace and righteousness of Christ are offered as a free gift; the subject of justification by faith is to be studied and put into practice. Let us all realize that young and old, if they would behold the glory of Christ, must go into the cleft of the Rock. If we would become Christians, we cannot retain our natural habits, and hold fast to the weakness of our character that dishonors our Saviour. We can find no excuse in the plea that this or that sin is the result of "my way." {YI, September 14, 1893 par. 2}

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God. {DA 173.1}

That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

Who has the heart? With whom are our thoughts? Of whom do we love to converse? Who has our warmest affections and our best energies? If we are Christ's, our thoughts are with Him, and our sweetest thoughts are of Him. All we have and are is consecrated to Him. We long to bear His image, breathe His spirit, do His will, and please Him in all things. {SC 58.2}

Those who become new creatures in Christ Jesus will bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. They will no longer fashion themselves according to the former lusts, but by the faith of the Son of God they will follow in His steps, reflect His character, and purify themselves even as He is pure. The things they once hated they now love, and the things they once loved they hate. The proud and self-assertive become meek and lowly in heart. The vain and supercilious become serious and unobtrusive. The drunken become sober, and the profligate pure. The vain customs and fashions of the world are laid aside. Christians will seek not the "outward adorning," but "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3:3, 4. {SC 58.3}

There is no evidence of genuine repentance unless it works reformation. If he restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, confess his sins, and love God and his fellow men, the sinner may be sure that he has passed from death unto life. {SC 59.1}

Many who sincerely consecrate their lives to God's service are surprised and disappointed to find themselves, as never before, confronted by obstacles and beset by trials and perplexities. They pray for Christlikeness of character, for a fitness for the Lord's work, and they are placed in circumstances that seem to call forth all the evil of their nature. Faults are revealed of which they did not even suspect the existence. ... It is because God is leading them that these things come upon them. Trials and obstacles are the Lord's chosen methods of discipline and His appointed conditions of success. He who reads the hearts of men knows their characters better than they themselves know them. ... In His providence He brings these persons into different positions and varied circumstances that they may discover in their character the defects which have been concealed from their own knowledge. He gives them opportunity to correct these defects and to fit themselves for His service. Often He permits the fires of affliction to assail them that they may be purified. {HDL 8, 9}

To men whom God designs shall fill responsible positions, He in mercy reveals their hidden defects, that they may look within and examine critically the complicated emotions and exercises of their own
hearts, and detect that which is wrong; thus they may modify their dispositions and refine their manners. The Lord in His providence brings men where He can test their moral powers and reveal their motives of action, that they may improve what is right in themselves and put away that which is wrong. God would have His servants become acquainted with the moral machinery of their own hearts. In order to bring this about, He often permits the fire of affliction to assail them that they may become purified....
God leads His people on, step by step. He brings them up to different points calculated to manifest what is in the heart. Some endure at one point, but fall off at the next. At every advanced point the heart is tested and tried a little closer.
by EGW, Councils for the Church Chapter 6 p. 55

The wonderful point is --
We are covered by Christ's righteousness, as long as we follow the Holy Spirit's leading, and are co-operating with His cleansing work in us, we are accounted perfect in each stage as we grow in God's grace unto full maturity in Christ.

Faults are revealed of which they did not even suspect the existence. . . In His providence He brings these persons into different positions and varied circumstances that they may discover in their character the defects which have been concealed from their own knowledge.

Unknown inherited traits of character do not count as sins.

Good point. I agree. I should have said - Unknown, uncultivated inherited traits of character do not count as sins. They do not count as sins until we cherish or act them out in words or deeds.

Having them is not the same as sinning. If we don't know about them we cannot cherish them or act them out. If circumstances do not bring them to out attention they are a non-issue.

M: Having them is not the same as sinning. If we don't know about them we cannot cherish them or act them out. If circumstances do not bring them to out attention they are a non-issue.

A: God would do well to make sure we don't ever encounter those circumstances, so we can all be sinless. There are people who have been taught all their lives that having multiple wives is a good thing. Are they not guilty because they don't know any better?

Faults are revealed of which they did not even suspect the existence. ... It is because God is leading them that these things come upon them. Trials and obstacles are the Lord's chosen methods of discipline and His appointed conditions of success. He who reads the hearts of men knows their characters better than they themselves know them. ... In His providence He brings these persons into different positions and varied circumstances that they may discover in their character the defects which have been concealed from their own knowledge. He gives them opportunity to correct these defects and to fit themselves for His service. Often He permits the fires of affliction to assail them that they may be purified. {HDL 8, 9}

Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? No, they wouldn't have unknown defects of character. Instead, they might have dormant, untapped, uncultivated traits of character. There is a difference between defects of character and traits of character.

Rosangela, did Paul ever reach the point where he was no longer practicing the sinful habits he cultivated while in the world? Or, did he die before Jesus was able to reveal to him all the sins he was committing ignorantly? By the way, can you name some of the sins he might have been committing ignorantly? And, can you explain why Jesus didn't reveal them to him?

Rosangela believes everyone inherits a certain number of defective traits of character that are already cultivated, already developed - before we commit our first sin. She also believes we are guilty of them as if we sinned and cultivated them ourselves. She also believes they stain the fruit of abiding in Jesus, defiling them with sin, making them unacceptable to the Father. She also believes this is proof Jesus was not like us, that His human nature was like ours, not like born-again believers. I disagree with her.

M: Rosangela, did Paul ever reach the point where he was no longer practicing the sinful habits he cultivated while in the world? Or, did he die before Jesus was able to reveal to him all the sins he was committing ignorantly? By the way, can you name some of the sins he might have been committing ignorantly? And, can you explain why Jesus didn't reveal them to him?

R: Mike, you have a wrong notion. You think that only when a person is practicing some kind of sin/sinful habit does he/she have a defect of character. Love or obedience less than perfect is a defect of character. A selfish desire reveals a defect of character.

M: Rosangela believes everyone inherits a certain number of defective traits of character that are already cultivated, already developed - before we commit our first sin. She also believes we are guilty of them as if we sinned and cultivated them ourselves. She also believes they stain the fruit of abiding in Jesus, defiling them with sin, making them unacceptable to the Father. She also believes this is proof Jesus was not like us, that His human nature was like ours, not like born-again believers. I disagree with her.

R: I don't think your words adequately describe what I believe. I believe defective traits of character are synonymous with defects of character - whether you have cultivated them or not. So, people are born with defects of character which they will later manifest and develop. Of course a newborn is not guilty of anything, for his unconscious defects of character are sins of ignorance; but they are the reason why he is born in need of Savior.

Mike believes fetuses commit sin in the womb. I disagree with him.

M: Rosangela, did Paul ever reach the point where he was no longer practicing the sinful habits he cultivated while in the world? Or, did he die before Jesus was able to reveal to him all the sins he was committing ignorantly? By the way, can you name some of the sins he might have been committing ignorantly? And, can you explain why Jesus didn't reveal them to him?

R: Mike, you have a wrong notion. You think that only when a person is practicing some kind of sin/sinful habit does he/she have a defect of character. Love or obedience less than perfect is a defect of character. A selfish desire reveals a defect of character.

M: So, your answer to my question is - Paul sinned until the day he died.

"So, people are born with defects of character (sins of ignorance} which they will later manifest and develop."
1) Will they manifest and develop all of them and become guilty of them?
2) Or, will they avoid manifesting and developing some of them?
3) If so, are they guiltless of the ones they do not manifest and develop?
4) Why do sins of ignorance require a Savior if people are guiltless?

Yes, I believe children begin sinning shortly before they are born.

M: So, your answer to my question is - Paul sinned until the day he died.

R: No! You asked: "Did Paul ever reach the point where he was no longer practicing the sinful habits he cultivated while in the world?" My answer was that yes, Paul reached the point where he was no longer practicing the sinful habits he cultivated while in the world, otherwise he wouldn't have said, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor. 11:1). This doesn't mean that, at this point, he was totally exempt from defects of character. We are born with natural defects of character which we will have to subdue until our vile body is changed.

"Christ will never neglect the work that has been placed in His hands. He will inspire the resolute disciple with a sense of the perversity, the sin-stained condition, the depravity, of the heart upon which He is working. The true penitent learns the uselessness of self-importance. Looking to Jesus, comparing his own defective character with the Saviour's perfect character, he says only-- 'In my hand no price I bring; Simply to Thy cross I cling.'" {HP 64.6}

This insight does not mean they are guilty of sinning..,

Through the power that Jesus gives, we can be "more than conquerors." But we cannot manufacture this power. Only through the Spirit of God can we receive it. {HP 64.2}

We need a deep insight into the nature of Christ and into the mystery of His love, "which passeth knowledge" (Ephesians 3:19). We are to live in the warm, genial rays of the Sun of Righteousness. Nothing but Christ's loving compassion, His divine grace, His almighty power, can enable us to baffle the relentless foe and subdue the opposition of our own hearts. What is our strength? The joy of the Lord. Let the love of Christ fill our hearts, and then we shall be prepared to receive the power that He has for us. {HP 64.3}

Let us thank God every day for the blessings that are ours. If the human agent will humble himself before God, . . realizing his utter inability to do the work that needs to be done in order that his soul may be purified; if he will cast away his own righteousness, Christ will abide in his heart. He will put His hand to the work of creating him anew, and will continue the work till he is complete in Him. . . . {HP 64.4}

Beholding Christ for the purpose of becoming like Him, the seeker after truth sees the perfection of the principles of God's law, and he becomes dissatisfied with everything but perfection. . . . But he knows that with the Redeemer there is saving power that will gain for him the victory in the conflict. The Saviour will strengthen and help him as he comes pleading for grace and efficiency. {HP 64.5}

Christ will never neglect the work that has been placed in His hands. He will inspire the resolute disciple with a sense of the perversity, the sin-stained condition, the depravity, of the heart upon which He is working. The true penitent learns the uselessness of self-importance. Looking to Jesus, comparing his own defective character with the Saviour's perfect character, he says only - "In my hand no price I bring; Simply to Thy cross I cling." {HP 64.6}

Arnold, are Christians perverse and depraved?

Is everything Jesus empowers them to do stained with sin and selfishness?

The righteousness of Christ, which will be imputed to the believing soul, will be the title by which his entrance into heaven will be assured. Through the influence of the Spirit of God, the believer is transformed in character; his taste is refined, his judgment is sanctified, and he becomes complete in Christ. The love that was manifested toward him in the death of Christ, awakens a response of thankful love, and in answer to sincere prayer, the believer is brought from grace to grace, from glory to glory, until by beholding Christ, he is changed into the same image. – {YI December 6, 1894 Par. 4}

It is a process.

The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

John says, "The light"--Christ--"shineth in darkness," that is, in the world, "and the darkness comprehended it not. . . . But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The reason why the unbelieving world are not saved is that they do not choose to be enlightened. The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

When Christ would define the advancement possible for us, He said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This advancement is not gained without effort. The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, can not inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the formed habits, must be given up. {ST, May 18, 1904 par. 7}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We can not, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that struggle for the mastery. We can not overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He can not work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {ST, May 18, 1904 par. 8}

The victory is not won without much earnest prayer, without the humbling of self at every step. Our will is not to be forced into co-operation with divine agencies, but it must be voluntarily submitted. Were it possible to force upon you with a hundredfold greater intensity the influence of the Spirit of God, it would not make you a Christian, a fit subject for heaven. The stronghold of Satan-would not be broken. The will must be placed on the side of God's will. You are not able, of yourself, to bring your purposes and desires and inclinations into submission to the will of God; but if you are "willing to be made willing," God will accomplish the work for you, even "casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." Then you will "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." {ST, May 18, 1904 par. 9}

Arnold, when believers complete the "process" - what is the state and status of their good words and good works (the fruit of abiding in Jesus)? You wrote, "I believe true believers . . . are dirty channels" and "what passes through dirty channels is dirty." "Sin-stained, too". Is this true even after they complete the "process"?

If this is your relgion, Arnold, then we are brothers in Christ!

A: The righteousness of Christ, which will be imputed to the believing soul, will be the title by which his entrance into heaven will be assured. Through the influence of the Spirit of God, the believer is transformed in character; his taste is refined, his judgment is sanctified, and he becomes complete in Christ. The love that was manifested toward him in the death of Christ, awakens a response of thankful love, and in answer to sincere prayer, the believer is brought from grace to grace, from glory to glory, until by beholding Christ, he is changed into the same image. – {YI December 6, 1894 Par. 4} It is a process.

M: Arnold, when believers complete the "process" - what is the state and status of their good words and good works (the fruit of abiding in Jesus)? You wrote, "I believe true believers . . . are dirty channels" and "what passes through dirty channels is dirty." "Sin-stained, too". Is this true even after they complete the "process"? . . . She wrote, Then you will "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Again, what is the state and status of the good words and works God works out in and through true believers who have completed the "process"? Dirty and sin-stained?

A: That is for another thread. The salient questions here are: While one is in the process of sanctification - still dirty - is he considered a true believer? If true believers are dirty, are they choosing to be dirty, or is it something they cannot fully control? When one is in the process of salvation, does God reveal every problem all at once, or does He give it in manageable chunks?

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

M: Is everything Jesus empowers them to do stained with sin and selfishness?

A) No. But what passes through dirty channels is dirty.

1) No. What do you mean by No?

2) Dirty? What do you mean by Dirty?

There are things people do they have no idea are sins. For example, they do not realize working or buying and selling on the Sabbath is a sin. God reveals these kinds of things to them in "manageable chunks". However, cultivated defective traits of character are different. God does not allow them to pine away wishing they were free. He offers them victory now.

M: Is everything Jesus empowers them to do stained with sin and selfishness?

A) No. But what passes through dirty channels is dirty.

M) No. What do you mean by No?

A) No, Jesus does not empower us to sin or to be selfish. We don't need Him for that.

M) Dirty? What do you mean by Dirty?

A) Defiled.

Matthew
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Romans
12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men.

1 Timothy
2:2 Lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
5:4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.

Colossians
1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Peter
2:20 Wye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.

1 John
3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

You misread my post. I agree the fruit of abiding in Jesus is "defiled" and requires the meritorious blood and righteousness of Jesus to ascend acceptable to the Father. Where you and I disagree is the idea the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful and selfish or somehow stained with sin and selfish and for this reason it is unacceptable to the Father. There is absolutely nothing sinful or selfish about the fruit of abiding in Jesus. Exactly how and why passing through corrupt human channels makes it unacceptable to the Father is not explained. One thing is certain - Jesus does not take sin and make it acceptable to the Father.

Please show from the Bible that the fruit of abiding in Jesus is sinful and selfish and unacceptable to the Father.

The prophet Hosea had pointed out what constitutes the very essence of Pharisaism, in the words, "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." Hosea 10:1. In their professed service to God, the Jews were really working for self. Their righteousness was the fruit of their own efforts to keep the law according to their own ideas and for their own selfish benefit. Hence it could be no better than they were. In their endeavor to make themselves holy, they were trying to bring a clean thing out of an unclean. The law of God is as holy as He is holy, as perfect as He is perfect. It presents to men the righteousness of God. It is impossible for man, of himself, to keep this law; for the nature of man is depraved, deformed, and wholly unlike the character of God. The works of the selfish heart are "as an unclean thing;" and "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6. {MB 54.1}

This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God was "manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." But Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." When on earth He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." By His perfect obedience, He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ the heart is united with His heart; the will is merged in His will; the mind becomes one with His mind; the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then, as the Lord looks upon us, He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {ST, November 22, 1905 par. 5}

It's hard for me to conclude the fruit of living "His life" is stained with sin and selfishness.

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him”. Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.{ST July 4, 1892, par. 8}