Review of Entropy

From Wikipedia:
In thermodynamics, entropy (usual symbol S) is a measure of the number of specific ways in which a thermodynamic system may be arranged, commonly understood as a measure of disorder. According to the second law of thermodynamics the entropy of an isolated system never decreases; such a system will spontaneously proceed towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the configuration with maximum entropy.


One must be cautious about "order", for some have seen hexagonal patterns in mud or rock and said, see, that's a sign of Intelligent design, not.

For entropy is more than just "disorder" as to what we would call "ordered" or "unordered". It also involves energy and temperature.

Entropy is an extensive property. It has the dimension of energy divided by temperature,


That is, the hexagonal patterns observed have less energy than if they were not in hexagonal patterns. Systems seek the lowest order with the least amount of energy. While wax honeycomb may seek a lower order of a melted pool, at a higher temperature, mud and rocks seek a lower order, even if they form a pattern, at a lowered temperature. Over time, the rocks eventually break down, becoming sand, and then soil. The comb may disintegrate, insects and bacteria may break it down.

To put in a very general term, things run down if left to themselves. Life is an uphill battle.


Many believe that God not only has created the laws of physics, but He sustains the laws of physics.

Ellen White has this to say:
Not by its own inherent energy does the earth produce its bounties, and year by year continue its motion around the sun. An unseen hand guides the planets in their circuit of the heavens. {FLB 28.3}
The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. Every drop of rain or flake of snow, every spire of grass, every leaf and flower and shrub, testifies of God. These little things so common around us teach the lesson that nothing is beneath the notice of the infinite God, nothing is too small for His attention. {FLB 28.4}


This is not to say that God causes entropy, but that other laws of physics, which some atheists say just keep going without God, Ellen White here, and elsewhere, is saying that God is constantly keeping them going. For without God, all would go into entropy.

But now we have someone on another thread suggestting otherwise.

True, nature is not self-acting. But here he is saying that the laws of entropy do not work on it's own, that Jesus has to intentionally cause things to run down. That Jesus not only causes the forest to grow, He causes it to decay, to run down. It's not that Jesus gives energy to life on earth, but He takes that energy away, to run things down.

This would also mean that when the rain falls, it doesn't run down to a lower entropy state, but it would stay on the hills, would pile up in a liquid mass, if Jesus didn't make it flow down.

I disagree. Nature runs down if Jesus doesn't uphold it.

All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. {FLB 164.2}


Upon all created things is seen the impress of the Deity. Nature testifies of God. The susceptible mind, brought in contact with the miracle and mystery of the universe, cannot but recognize the working of infinite power. Not by its own inherent energy does the earth produce its bounties, and year by year continue its motion around the sun. An unseen hand guides the planets in their circuit of the heavens. A mysterious life pervades all nature--a life that sustains the unnumbered worlds throughout immensity, that lives in the insect atom which floats in the summer breeze, that wings the flight of the swallow and feeds the young ravens which cry, that brings the bud to blossom and the flower to fruit. {Ed 99.1}
The same power that upholds nature, is working also in man. The same great laws that guide alike the star and the atom control human life. The laws that govern the heart's action, regulating the flow of the current of life to the body, are the laws of the mighty Intelligence that has the jurisdiction of the soul. From Him all life proceeds. Only in harmony with Him can be found its true sphere of action. For all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God, a life exercised in harmony with the Creator's will. To transgress His law, physical, mental, or moral, is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. {Ed 99.2}

Is discord, anarchy, ruin nothing other than entropy?

Shall we consider that all created things die by the will of God?

No!

It is that all created things live by the will of God!

The passage speaks of the earth not by its own inherent energy producing its bounties. It means if it wasn't from God's energy, the earth WOULD NOT produce it's bounties. One must not misconstrue her words to mean that by God's energy does the earth NOT produce it's bounties when those times happen.

Kland, you need to back up your observations with actual quotes that say so. It is not enough for you to simply say so. Now, where in the Bible or in the SOP does it say - The laws regulating things deteriorating from death to decay to dust act independent of Jesus' power (i.e. act of their accord and volition).

By the way, on a different but similar note, the reason people die the first death, instead of living forever, is because Jesus denies them free access to the tree of life. Both the Bible and the SOP says so in no uncertain terms. Listen:


Again, the reason sinners do not live forever is because Jesus denies them free access to the tree of life. They die because of action taken by Jesus.

MM, what passages did you just read that I posted?

I don't believe you are understanding entropy.

If Jesus sustains the earth to produce it's bounties, then what do you suppose will happen if Jesus no longer sustains it?

If there is an active force causing something to happen, that does not require there to be an "anti-active" force causing something to not happen.

If you were to keep pouring water in a bucket with a hole in it to maintain it's level, what happens if you stop adding inputs to it?

Kland, if Jesus ceased enabling nature to act, nature would cease to exist. Nature is not self-acting. Simple as that. No Jesus, no nature. Gravity is not self-acting. Jesus must act for gravity to act. No Jesus, no gravity. Etc.

Christ is the "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9. As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. But against these principles there is struggling an antagonistic power. The result of the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is manifest in every man's experience. There is in his nature a bent to evil, a force which, unaided, he cannot resist. To withstand this force, to attain that ideal which in his inmost soul he accepts as alone worthy, he can find help in but one power. That power is Christ. Co-operation with that power is man's greatest need. In all educational effort should not this co-operation be the highest aim? {Ed 29.1}

Is Christ working against Himself to cause evil, to cause sickness, disease, and death? No. Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

God does not cause sickness, disease, and death.

Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}

In drooping flower and falling leaf Adam and his companion witnessed the first signs of decay. Vividly was brought to their minds the stern fact that every living thing must die. Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death. {Ed 26.3}

Continually they were reminded also of their lost dominion. Among the lower creatures Adam had stood as king, and so long as he remained loyal to God, all nature acknowledged his rule; but when he transgressed, this dominion was forfeited. The spirit of rebellion, to which he himself had given entrance, extended throughout the animal creation. Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil. {Ed 26.4}

APL, evil angels are not at liberty to cause death, disease, and destruction. They must have Jesus' permission. They are not free to do as they please. They must receive permission from Jesus. Jesus determines what they can do, how they can do it, where they can do it, and when they can do it. They are not free to do as they please. Jesus works to ensure they do not exceed the limits He sets.

Also, nature is not self-acting. If Jesus ceased to act, nature would cease to act or cease to exist. The idea that Jesus need only cease restraining the pent up forces of nature for it to wreak havoc is "science falsely so called".

God has suspended the natural consequence of sin temporarily. This is part of the Great Controversy. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. {DA 764.2} The inevitable results of sin is that it causes the sinner to perish. The inevitable results of sin is not execution by God. Sin pays its wage.

MM's view is that God decides who will be raped, who will be murdered, which children will be abused and then manages how much. Is there any free will? Death and destruction are not the works of God, but of Satan and sin.

Jesus (God) does not prevent freewill. People are free to think and to act. Jesus may or may not be free to intervene and prevent rape, murder, etc. Circumstances dictate whether He can or cannot. Jesus is not free to protect everyone. He is bound by rules of engagement according to the Great Controversy. Sometimes circumstances demand that He prevent rape, murder, etc. And sometimes circumstances demand that He permit it.

APL's view is that Jesus (God) withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction. He also believes evil men and evil angels are not free to do as they please. They must receive permission from Jesus to wreak havoc. Jesus also works to ensure they do not exceed the limits He sets. They are only allowed to do what Jesus is willing to permit. No more, no less.

I agree with APL.

But MM - you say God inflicts sickness and death. Which it is? MM - you can tell who is doing what. That is a problem.

That is a different reality. Let's take it one point at a time. Jesus (God) causes, commands, and permits death, disease, and destruction. Which is it? It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes Jesus causes it Himself, sometimes He commands holy angels to do it, and other times He permits evil angels to do it. It is not a question of - Which is it? Or, which way is right? The truth is - all three are right. None of them are wrong. Jesus decides which way is best under the circumstances. He always knows best. He never gets it wrong.

My point is simple, which is - You believe Jesus (God) withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction. You believe evil men and evil angels are not free to do as they please. They must receive permission from Jesus to wreak havoc. You also believe Jesus works to ensure they do not exceed the limits He sets. They are only allowed to do what Jesus is willing to permit, what circumstances force Him to allow. No more, no less.

I totally agree with you. Yes, we disagree on other aspects of the issue. But on this point we agree. Now, the why of it neither one of us can say. That is, why Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to harm innocent women and children we cannot say with absolute certainty. Yes, He respects freewill. However, that doesn't explain everything. The only thing we can say with certainty is that in Heaven Jesus will explain to us why He was forced to do this and that. His explanation will make perfect sense. It will not lessen the pain and sadness. Today we can take comfort, find solace in the fact Jesus will one day explain it to us. By faith I believe.

I'm not sure we agree an anything. I don't think you do understand what I believe, and that's fine. What I believe is immaterial to your salvation.

The wages of sin is death, not execution, death. The inevitable results of sin is death, the natural consequences of sin is death. Why was sin permitted? Because the universe did not understand this, that the natural consequences of sin is death, not execution by God. Sickness, disease and death are caused by sin, not by God.

APL, I am very sure we agree on the following:

I'm sure we do not agree MM. God gives NO permission for anyone to violate His law.

The following was posted online recently by Kevin Straub, compiler of the book, As He Is, www.teachservices.com, an SDA book publishing and distributing company. The quote speaks for itself.

I AM OF THE CONVICTION THAT EVERY instance of entropy, calamity, destruction, and death is entirely due to the results of sin (defined as a disconnect with God and righteousness) and not to that of the active employment of God's power to negative ends. I believe that God's power and presence is consistently exercised by the Divine for purposes of creativity, sustenance, and restoration. When any kind of evil or degradation occurs, it is due to the principle which I have come to describe by the term "Divine Recession," or the withdrawal of God. The level of entropy or destruction which occurs is in proportion to the degree of recession. The Bible terminology for DR is "the hiding of His face" which is the description and definition of God's anger, or wrath. We find first mention of this in Scripture, in Deuteronomy 31:16-18, where the results of rejecting God are depicted in certain terms as "evil and troubles" which shall befall the people who choose other gods and the reason is emphatically provided, couched between two uses of the phrase, "hide my face" as because "our God is not among us."

Other Biblical phrases used to depict the same mechanism of wrath are "giving over," (e.g., Psalms 78:50) "giving up," (e.g., 2 Chronicles 30:7) "delivering up" and "sparing not." (e.g., Romans 8:32).

The "consistent view" of God's character, which I hold firmly, pertaining to His relation to the use of violence in the conduct of His own defense in the great controversy teaches that God never does as man, in that He will break the law in order to uphold the law. In the case of this discussion, we specifically focus upon God’s own relation to the commandment "thou shalt not kill," in His willingness to use threats of damaging or lethal force and His actual use of damaging or lethal force. Man takes special license to legitimize the threat or use of damaging or lethal force to uphold the law, which ordinarily prohibits the same. God's ways are infinitely higher than man's and everything He does is in righteousness. This is all to say, God never takes license to employ unrighteousness to achieve righteous ends, as man does. This is pragmatism.

Further, it moves the contest, at least in specific times and places, to an arena that has nothing to do with the contest over principle, ideology and truth: that of raw power alone. Viz., in seeing God as willing to step outside of His “normal” character, which is a transcript of the law, and do something highly irregular, or “strange” in that He would actually turn the use of His power to fearful, destructive and coercive ends. (Note the intentional use of the word “strange,” which is often claimed that such an act of God is violence in a proactive modality, when it is rather proven that His strange act is none other than our “Divine Recession,” or hiding of face; but this is another study.) This type of behaviour from One Who has all power, as Creator of all the powers, reduces the theme of the great controversy to nonsensical gibberish. For, as it is said, “love wins” yet if the All-Powerful can at times override the preferred theme of demonstration of love, rolling up His sleeves and getting busy in active force and destruction and killing of His enemies just to make sure that all things move in the direction of a favorable outcome for “love,” we have nothing but sheer hypocrisy. The case of the flood is a primary exhibit in this regard, for here we have the world nearing the point where God has only a handful of souls that acknowledge Him in truth. God, fearing that the line to the coming Saviour would be extinguished altogether, as it is said, had to intervene and “time out” the wicked inhabitants by killing them and starting over with only His own. All of this is akin to a petulant child playing a game with an opponent who is whipping him soundly, getting extremely frustrated and flipping the board over, scattering pieces everywhere, then picking them up and resetting the board in a much more favorable position for a winning outcome. The Scriptures do not support this idea but rather the theme of DR. Notice:

Isaiah 54:7-9 For a small moment have I forsaken you; but with great mercies will I gather you. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on you, said the LORD your Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah to me...

Also we find in Job the same principle of giving the wicked over to the results of their own choices:

Job 22:15-17 Have you marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? 16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflowed with a flood: 17 Which said to God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them?

I believe that the final advance of the reformation; the key to the complete understanding of God’s glory (character); AND the core of the power of the fourth angel--that “glory angel” of Revelation 18 that comes in to join with the third angel’s message at last--is the view to the correct understanding of God’s character in relation to the use of force and violence.

“Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. HERE is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness…” {CTr 247.2, emphasis added}.

1 John 1:4-5 And these things write we to you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Life=light
Darkness=death

Death is not in God to give. Man can choose it and receive it, but the Source of life cannot produce it, any more than a source of physical light can produce darkness. Only when the light is disconnected does a state of darkness ensue, all as natural consequence.

So, Jesus withdraws His protection . . . and then what? What does He think will happen? Does He have any idea what nature, evil men, and evil angels will do? He knew a world-wide flood would kill everybody outside the Ark. How did sinning cause such a flood? How did wanton, calloused flesh-eating cause water above and below the earth to burst forth with such violence as to destroy the entire world? Here's how Jesus sees it:


Listen as Jesus, through the Spirit of Prophecy, describes penalty and punishment:


"These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty." "Thus God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." Obviously entropy is not the result of Jesus withdrawing His protection and permitting the forces of nature to unleash its pent up power. Nature is not self-acting.

Miller's rules of Biblical interpretation, quoting Ellen White:

"1. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible; 2. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by diligent application and study; 3. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering; 4. To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know, then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form your theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error; 5. Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed, or wisdom is my rule, and not the Bible." {RH, November 25, 1884 par. 24}

When you leave out references, you can come to the wrong conclusion.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

God is not the executioner. Sin pays its wage, death.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this [that sin causes death]. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin [sin causes death - not God - this is a key point in the Great Controvery]. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}


God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

God does not rule by the use of prevailing power. Rebellion is not overcome by force.

MM, please give evidence that you understand entropy.

Or give your substituted definition of entropy explaining why and how it is different from the ones I listed.

Or state that you do not believe entropy exists.

I think answering one of those is important given the title of this topic, no?

Without God, the forces that keep matter intact would not exist. That's as disorganized as it can get, I think - maximum entropy.

However, that is not to say that God can never accelerate the process of increasing entropy.