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Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #100174
06/25/08 04:46 PM
06/25/08 04:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
But if knowing about Jesus' revelation of God's character before He died on the cross was sufficient to take Enoch, Moses, and Elijah to heaven, sufficient for them to feel secure and unafraid of God, why did Jesus actually have to die on the cross?


The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?

 Quote:
Also, were holy angels and unfallen beings less secure than Enoch, Moses, and Elijah before Jesus actually died on the cross?


Here's a statement that speaks to this:

 Quote:
The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. (5 SDABC 1132)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100289
06/27/08 07:10 PM
06/27/08 07:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
But if knowing about Jesus' revelation of God's character before He died on the cross was sufficient to take Enoch, Moses, and Elijah to heaven, sufficient for them to feel secure and unafraid of God, why did Jesus actually have to die on the cross?


The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?

 Quote:
Also, were holy angels and unfallen beings less secure than Enoch, Moses, and Elijah before Jesus actually died on the cross?


Here's a statement that speaks to this:

 Quote:
The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. (5 SDABC 1132)

If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angles and unfallen beings? Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #100309
06/28/08 03:19 AM
06/28/08 03:19 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity


Why are you making this assumption?

 Quote:
why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angles and unfallen beings?

Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.


That's not much of a point. Of course it did more than that.

I asked you this question:

 Quote:
The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?


Your response?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100388
07/01/08 02:26 PM
07/01/08 02:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity


Why are you making this assumption?

Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angles and unfallen beings?

Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.


That's not much of a point. Of course it did more than that.

The point is the angels were already secure in their faith in Jesus' law and love *before* He lived and died as a man. So, the question is - Why did Jesus have to live and die the perfect life and death? What did it accomplish?

 Originally Posted By: Tom
I asked you this question:

 Quote:
The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?


Your response?

Apparently so. It worked for the angels; it worked for Enoch, Moses, and Elijah; why wouldn't it have worked for us? What would have happened if no one had sinned after A&E? What manner of death would Jesus have had to die to atone for the two sins of A&E?

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100395
07/01/08 03:59 PM
07/01/08 03:59 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.


So do we.

 Quote:
MM: Why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angles and unfallen beings?

Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.

TE:That's not much of a point. Of course it did more than that.

MM:The point is the angels were already secure in their faith in Jesus' law and love *before* He lived and died as a man. So, the question is - Why did Jesus have to live and die the perfect life and death? What did it accomplish?


As already cited from DA:

 Quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)


I don't understand how this isn't answering your question. Please note the "not until" part.

 Quote:
TE:The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?

MM:Apparently so. It worked for the angels; it worked for Enoch, Moses, and Elijah; why wouldn't it have worked for us? What would have happened if no one had sinned after A&E? What manner of death would Jesus have had to die to atone for the two sins of A&E?


The atonement has to do with setting us right with God. This could only be done by revealing God:

 Quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)


The way that God sets us right is by way of revelation. Christ revealed God in order to set us right. This was the "whole purpose" of His mission.

From the DA quote above, it was not until the death of Christ that the character of Satan was clearly seen by angels. So His death was necessary for them, as well as for us. As she explains elsewhere, apart from Christ's death, the universe would be no more secure than it was when Satan first leveled his accusations against God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100453
07/02/08 06:26 PM
07/02/08 06:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

So, do you agree with my assumption?

 Originally Posted By: Tom
MM: Why wasn't it sufficient to safeguard the holy angels and unfallen beings?

Why did they have to wait until after Jesus actually died on the cross? The point I'm hoping to arrive at is that the death of Jesus accomplished more than merely convincing the loyal angels that their faith in Jesus was not misplaced.

TE:That's not much of a point. Of course it did more than that.

MM:The point is the angels were already secure in their faith in Jesus' law and love *before* He lived and died as a man. So, the question is - Why did Jesus have to live and die the perfect life and death? What did it accomplish?

TE: As already cited from DA:

 Quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)


I don't understand how this isn't answering your question. Please note the "not until" part.

It doesn't address my question. It simply says the angels saw Satan unveiled. It doesn't explain why Jesus had to die. The point is - They were already secure in the law and love of God. They were serving Him faithfully and would have forever even Jesus had not died on the cross.

 Originally Posted By: Tom
TE:The same question could be asked of us. We never actually saw Jesus die on a cross. The Holy Spirit communicates Christ to us. He could do that without Christ's actually dying on the cross, couldn't He?

MM:Apparently so. It worked for the angels; it worked for Enoch, Moses, and Elijah; why wouldn't it have worked for us? What would have happened if no one had sinned after A&E? What manner of death would Jesus have had to die to atone for the two sins of A&E?

TE: The atonement has to do with setting us right with God. This could only be done by revealing God:

 Quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)


The way that God sets us right is by way of revelation. Christ revealed God in order to set us right. This was the "whole purpose" of His mission.

From the DA quote above, it was not until the death of Christ that the character of Satan was clearly seen by angels. So His death was necessary for them, as well as for us. As she explains elsewhere, apart from Christ's death, the universe would be no more secure than it was when Satan first leveled his accusations against God.

Obviously there is more to it, because the unfallen universe was already serving God faithfully and would have forever even if Jesus had not died on the cross. That's the point. Nowhere does it say they would have rebelled against God if Jesus had not died on the cross. Understanding why Satan deserves to die is helpful and needful, but it doesn't change the fact they were already secure in the law and love of God.

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #100462
07/02/08 08:27 PM
07/02/08 08:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

So, do you agree with my assumption?


No, I was asking you a question to help you reason things out.

 Quote:
It doesn't address my question. It simply says the angels saw Satan unveiled. It doesn't explain why Jesus had to die. The point is - They were already secure in the law and love of God. They were serving Him faithfully and would have forever even Jesus had not died on the cross.


Again, I'm not understanding how you are not understanding the text.

 Quote:
Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds.


Satan's character wasn't clearly revealed until Christ's death. May I suggest you read the whole chapter. Look at how she applies Rev. 12:10. It wasn't until the cross that Satan was defeated. That's when he was cast down. He was defeated by Christ's death. The cross is what made the universe eternally secure. Without Christ's death, it would have been no more secure than it was when Satan first made his accusations. The issue wasn't that the angels weren't being faithfully serving God, but that Satan had raised doubts. These doubts were removed by the cross.

 Quote:
Obviously there is more to it, because the unfallen universe was already serving God faithfully and would have forever even if Jesus had not died on the cross. That's the point.


Not really. The point has to do with the Great Controversy, which was over the character of God, not over whether or not angels were faithfully serving God.

 Quote:
Nowhere does it say they would have rebelled against God if Jesus had not died on the cross.


DA 764 presents this as a possibility, where it speaks of the doubt that would have remained had God left Satan to reap the results of his sin.

 Quote:
Understanding why Satan deserves to die is helpful and needful, but it doesn't change the fact they were already secure in the law and love of God.


On what basis are you asserting they were secure? The SOP says the universe was *not* secure, until the death of Christ.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100495
07/04/08 01:29 AM
07/04/08 01:29 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
[quote=Tom Ewall]
 Quote:
MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

MM: So, do you agree with my assumption?

TE: No, I was asking you a question to help you reason things out.

What is your point?

 Quote:
MM: It doesn't address my question. It simply says the angels saw Satan unveiled. It doesn't explain why Jesus had to die. The point is - They were already secure in the law and love of God. They were serving Him faithfully and would have forever even Jesus had not died on the cross.

TE: Again, I'm not understanding how you are not understanding the text.

MM: Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds.

TE: Satan's character wasn't clearly revealed until Christ's death. May I suggest you read the whole chapter. Look at how she applies Rev. 12:10. It wasn't until the cross that Satan was defeated. That's when he was cast down. He was defeated by Christ's death. The cross is what made the universe eternally secure. Without Christ's death, it would have been no more secure than it was when Satan first made his accusations. The issue wasn't that the angels weren't being faithfully serving God, but that Satan had raised doubts. These doubts were removed by the cross.

Even before Satan was exposed at the cross, the holy angels were secure in the law and love of God. They chose to love and serve God before the evil angels were cast out of heaven. You seem to be saying their loyalties were tentative before the cross, that their security was conditional, dependent upon Satan's final downfall - as if they were saying, "We'll love and serve you for the time being, but if you cannot eventually disprove Satan's accusations, we're going to rebel, too." Is this what you believe?

 Quote:
MM: Obviously there is more to it, because the unfallen universe was already serving God faithfully and would have forever even if Jesus had not died on the cross. That's the point.

TE: Not really. The point has to do with the Great Controversy, which was over the character of God, not over whether or not angels were faithfully serving God.

MM: Nowhere does it say they would have rebelled against God if Jesus had not died on the cross.

TE: DA 764 presents this as a possibility, where it speaks of the doubt that would have remained had God left Satan to reap the results of his sin.

MM: Understanding why Satan deserves to die is helpful and needful, but it doesn't change the fact they were already secure in the law and love of God.

TE: On what basis are you asserting they were secure? The SOP says the universe was *not* secure, until the death of Christ.

What if God had decided not to implement the plan of salvation? What would have happened to the loyal angels and loyal FMAs? Did God have to go through with the plan of salvation in order to prevent the loyal beings from rebelling, too?

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #100502
07/04/08 02:32 AM
07/04/08 02:32 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.

MM: So, do you agree with my assumption?

TE: No, I was asking you a question to help you reason things out.

What is your point?


Here's the first part of our conversation here:

 Quote:
MM:If explaining that the Son of God would one day pay our sin debt of death on the cross was sufficient to safeguard Enoch, Moses, and Elijah for eternity

TE:Why are you making this assumption?

MM:Because they received eternal life in heaven without witnessing the actual life and death of Jesus.

TE: So do we.


My point was the we, no less than Enoch, Moses and Elijah, receive eternal life without having witnessed the actual life and death of Jesus.

 Quote:
Even before Satan was exposed at the cross, the holy angels were secure in the law and love of God.


I don't know why you keep asserting this. I've quoted for you the statements saying that they were only secured after the cross. What is your basis for asserting something contrary to this?

 Quote:
They chose to love and serve God before the evil angels were cast out of heaven.


That's not the same thing as being secure.

 Quote:
You seem to be saying their loyalties were tentative before the cross, that their security was conditional, dependent upon Satan's final downfall - as if they were saying, "We'll love and serve you for the time being, but if you cannot eventually disprove Satan's accusations, we're going to rebel, too." Is this what you believe?


I believe what I quoted. I'll quote it again.

 Quote:
The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. (5SDABC 1132)


I'm also quoted DA 758:

 Quote:
To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.


Remember there are two principles involved in the Great Controversy. To believe one is to have doubts about the other. To the extent that the angels were not sure about Satan's character, they were unsure about God's. This quote makes clear their minds weren't settled in regards to Satan until the cross.

 Quote:
What if God had decided not to implement the plan of salvation? What would have happened to the loyal angels and loyal FMAs? Did God have to go through with the plan of salvation in order to prevent the loyal beings from rebelling, too?


The above quotes make it clear that the Plan of Salvation benefited them just as it benefited us.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #100506
07/04/08 04:49 AM
07/04/08 04:49 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
I moved our little sub-thread re: perfection having failed and how Jesus could have failed to a new thread, How could Jesus have failed? in the Search For Truth forum. See you there.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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