By MM: I'm sorry, Scott, I still don't get your point. "They misunderstood [1] this and [2] believed that God wanted them to keep the law to earn salvation. So [3] the covenant that God offered wasn’t [4] the one they agreed to." Please explain to me the following points (also, please post inspired quotes to support your explanations):

1. What did they misunderstand?

2. Where does it say this?

3. What did God offer them?

4. What did they think they were agreeing to?

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Hi Tom,

I think you are wasting your breath on GC. You two obviously don't agree on who has authority. GC refuses to consider Paul and Waggoner when they disagree with his theology.

The fact is that Paul is the only systematic theology we have on the Old and New Covenants. Throw him out and one can believe what they want.

The Jews don't believe Paul and they still believe that they can bargain with God, meet the terms of the covenant, and earn their salvation.

If GC doesn't accept the 1888 message what could you possibly say that would have an influence on him?

scott

Yes, it seems you have ideas quite different than Waggoner's. It seems to me that Waggoner's ideas were correct during the time when EGW was endorsing him.



EGW has something interesting to say about that:





The statement I quoted was written in 1895, which is during the time that EGW was endorsing him.



Clearly, since you believe Paul was not balanced.



I agree with this. However, saying that someone is not balanced is not the same thing as saying such a one did not have the entire picture.



The only way it seems possible to me that you could write this is by not understanding what Paul was saying. Waggoner's explanation of what Paul said seems to me spot on. To requote just a portion:



Is there something about this with which you disagree?

This is so unbiblical I don't even know where to start!



Do you get your theology from the Bible? All God promised Noah is that He would save Him from a flood and never flood the earth again! Noah was a type of Christ in that He saved all who would enter the ark, but if you compare what God said to Noah to what He said to Abraham there is very little in common other that “God said”.

You have obviously heard someone say that there was only one covenant and you believed them and now you are set out to cram the round peg into the square hole. Since you didn’t get your view from the Bible please allow me to paste the whole covenant between God and Noah here:



[b]I would love to see the non existent biblical support that links Noah’s covenant to Abraham’s.

scott

Lest the gathering clouds and falling rain should fill men with constant terror, from fear of another flood, the Lord encouraged the family of Noah by a promise: "I will establish My covenant with you; . . . neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. . . . I do set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud. . . . And I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature." {PP 106.1}
[Patriarchs and Prophets (1890)]

With the assurance given to Noah concerning the Flood, God Himself has linked one of the most precious promises of His grace: "As I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of My peace be removed, saith Jehovah that hath mercy on thee." Isaiah 54:9, 10. {PP 107.2}

Says the prophet, "When Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness, . . . and will not behold the majesty of Jehovah." Isaiah 26:9, 10. Thus it was after the Flood. Released from His judgments, the inhabitants of the earth again rebelled against the Lord. Twice God's covenant and His statutes had been rejected by the world. Both the people before the Flood and the descendants of Noah cast off the divine authority. Then God entered into covenant with Abraham, and took to Himself a people to become the depositaries of His law.... {PP 120.3} [Patriarchs and Prophets (1890)]

by GC: You will notice that, throughout the Bible, God keeps referring to His covenant as "My covenant." I don't see Him saying things like "My first covenant", "My second covenant", "My third covenant." If you wish to dissect them into separate covenants, I suppose I cannot stop you. However, just as there are separate laws given throughout the Bible, they all point back to just one law--which can be summed up in one word: "Love." It is the same with the covenants. They are all made of the same metal, upon the same anvil.

Scott,

You're mighty brave to tell me what I think or don't think. In fact, more than brave, you are incorrect. I don't disagree with Paul. I have challenged you to prove your view on the covenants without his writings, not because I disagree with them, but because Paul's very writing style lends itself to misunderstandings, and in order to understand the issues properly, it greatly simplifies things to find the answers elsewhere first, and then compare to Paul to see how his statements fit the whole.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. (Genesis 6:18, KJV)

And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; (Genesis 9:9, KJV

And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Genesis 9:11, KJV)

And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15, KJV)

And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. (Genesis 17:2, KJV)

As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. (Genesis 17:4, KJV)

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. (Genesis 17:7, KJV)

And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. (Genesis 17:9, KJV)

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. (Genesis 17:10, KJV)

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. (Genesis 17:13, KJV)

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14, KJV)

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; ...and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. (Genesis 17:19, KJV)

But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. (Genesis 17:21, KJV)

And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. (Exodus 6:4, KJV)

And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. (Exodus 6:5, KJV)

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Exodus 19:5, KJV)

For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you. (Leviticus 26:9, KJV)

And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: (Leviticus 26:15, KJV)

Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. (Leviticus 26:42, KJV)

Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: (Numbers 25:12, KJV)

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring... and break my covenant which I have made with them. (Deuteronomy 31:16, KJV)

For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware ...then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. (Deuteronomy 31:20, KJV)

Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. (Joshua 7:11, KJV)

And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. (Judges 2:1, KJV)

And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; (Judges 2:20, KJV)

Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. (1 Kings 11:11, KJV)

But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? (Psalms 50:16, KJV)

My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. (Psalms 89:28, KJV)

My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. (Psalms 89:34, KJV)

If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. (Psalms 132:12, KJV)

For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; (Isaiah 56:4, KJV)



Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. (Ezekiel 16:60, KJV)

Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; (Jeremiah 33:20, KJV)

...the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. (Jeremiah 11:10, KJV)

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. (Isaiah 59:21, KJV)

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; (Isaiah 56:6, KJV)

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; As I live, surely mine oath that he hath despised, and my covenant that he hath broken, even it will I recompense upon his own head. (Ezekiel 17:19, KJV)

...which my covenant they brake, ...saith the LORD: (Jeremiah 31:32, KJV)

Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night...(Jeremiah 33:25, KJV)
...have transgressed my covenant,...(Jeremiah 34:18, KJV)
And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: (Ezekiel 16:62, KJV)
...and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. (Ezekiel 44:7, KJV)
...because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law. (Hosea 8:1, KJV)
...that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 2:4, KJV)
For this is my covenant unto them, .... (Romans 11:27, KJV)
....because they continued not in my covenant, ...saith the Lord. (Hebrews 8:9, KJV)

My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Malachi 2:5, KJV)

First: You gave me no biblical support at all unless you consider Ellen as part of the cannon of scripture.

Second: The text you use (gen. 9:11) linking "My Covenant" to all of God's covenants because God showed "grace" is like saying that a watermelon is the same as a cucumber because they are both green.

I don't disagree with Paul. I have challenged you to prove your view on the covenants without his writings, not because I disagree with them, but because Paul's very writing style lends itself to misunderstandings, and in order to understand the issues properly, it greatly simplifies things to find the answers elsewhere first, and then compare to Paul to see how his statements fit the whole.

Like Scott, you're quite brave to tell me what I believe...and like him, you are also incorrect.

I accept the 1888 message as having been inspired. My question was whether the statement you quoted from Waggoner were given before or after his apostasy. Makes a difference, doesn't it?

C. S. Lewis also experienced more than one phase of his life, in which his writing styles were quite different. It makes a difference in which era he wrote as to whether or not there is much credibility with it from a Christian standpoint.

GC: Three things should stand out in those texts above:

1) "My covenant"
2) "Everlasting"
3) Relationship of "statutes", "oath", "commandments" to "covenant."


But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. (Genesis 6:18, KJV)

And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; (Genesis 9:9, KJV

And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Genesis 9:11, KJV)

And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15, KJV)