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Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: Tom] #103990
10/25/08 01:31 AM
10/25/08 01:31 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Especially this:

Quote:
The longer we reflect on Christ the more we become like Him while at the same time realize how different we are from Him.

Yes, that's very good.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: asygo] #103993
10/25/08 02:51 AM
10/25/08 02:51 AM
A
Aaron  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
Originally Posted By: asygo
Actually, for those who are alive after the close of probation, they will not be able to recall their sin, because they have been blotted out. But they won't be patting themselves on the back saying, "I'm doing pretty good."


Im a little confused about this. Is the memory removed from the brain when probation closes?

Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: Aaron] #103996
10/25/08 04:09 AM
10/25/08 04:09 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Aaron
Originally Posted By: asygo
Actually, for those who are alive after the close of probation, they will not be able to recall their sin, because they have been blotted out. But they won't be patting themselves on the back saying, "I'm doing pretty good."

Im a little confused about this. Is the memory removed from the brain when probation closes?

I'm not sure how it's going to work, but we are told it will happen.

Quote:
But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: asygo] #104009
10/25/08 06:21 PM
10/25/08 06:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Waggoner has a very good explanation of the blotting out of sin:

Quote:
Though all the record of all our sin, even though written with the finger of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the rock, and the rock should be ground to powder—even this would not blot out our sin.

The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from nature, the being of man . The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. "The worshippers once purged" [Hebrews 10:2, 3]—actually purged by the blood of Christ—have "no more conscience of sins," because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them—it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself—they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902).


This brings out the real point here. It's not that God does something unilaterally to affect the memory (this has ominous implications), but "their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found."

Often Scripture speaks of things not being remembered which has nothing to do with a faulty memory.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: Aaron] #104030
10/26/08 03:17 PM
10/26/08 03:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Aaron
I guess it boils down to one's definition of what sin is. Like Ive said before God can help us overcome sins in one's life. I think if you drink and feel its a sin then you can ask God to help you overcome that. I think if you swear alot and feel convicted to stop then ask God and over time He will help you overcome. The longer we reflect on Christ the more we become like Him while at the same time realize how different we are from Him. Thats why we always need Him, always need to go back to the feet of the Saviour. I don't believe one day you wake up and say "wow I cant even remember the last time I sinned"
Aaron

I also believe Christians do not say, "Wow, I can't even remember the last time I sinned." Simultaneously feeling they are like and unlike Jesus is not an indication they are guilty of sinning. People will feel this way throughout eternity. I am familiar with the evolution model of sanctification you describe above. In fact, it's what I believed for the first 13 years of my walk with Jesus.

One day a friend challenged me to prove it from the Bible. I thought it would be easy. However, I was unable to do it. The Bible never describes believers gradually evolving from sinning to not sinning. I was unable to support the idea that believers sin less and less often over time until they cease sinning.

Instead, I found that 1) while abiding in Jesus, 2) while partaking of the divine nature, and 3) while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - believers do not and cannot sin. It doesn't mean they are incapable of sinning, it's just that under these circumstances they do not and cannot sin.

To sin, therefore, they must neglect to do the things mentioned above, and then all they can do is sin. To cease sinning they must exercise the gift of repentance, and then God empowers them to resume doing those things that enable them to not sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Do you see what I mean?

Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: Mountain Man] #104031
10/26/08 03:28 PM
10/26/08 03:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Regarding remembering specific sins after they are blotted out:

Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. Certain destruction threatens them, and like Jacob they will not suffer their faith to grow weak, because their prayers are not immediately answered. Though suffering the pangs of hunger, they will not cease their intercessions. They lay hold of the strength of God as Jacob laid hold of the angel, and the language of their soul is, "I will not let thee go except thou bless me." The saints at length prevail like Jacob, and are gloriously delivered by the voice of God. {3SG 134.2}

Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: Tom] #104037
10/26/08 05:43 PM
10/26/08 05:43 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Waggoner has a very good explanation of the blotting out of sin:

Quote:
It is forever gone from them—it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself—they do not think of doing it any more (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902).

This brings out the real point here. It's not that God does something unilaterally to affect the memory (this has ominous implications), but "their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found."

Often Scripture speaks of things not being remembered which has nothing to do with a faulty memory.

It may be true that they do not think of sin/sinning any more, but that is not what the GC quote says. She says they cannot recall the sins.

EGW: They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, they cannot bring them to remembrance

Waggoner: they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins

Last edited by asygo; 10/26/08 05:47 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: asygo] #104043
10/26/08 09:38 PM
10/26/08 09:38 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
It may be true that they do not think of sin/sinning any more, but that is not what the GC quote says. She says they cannot recall the sins.


She is not saying their memory is faulty. She is not saying they don't remember what they did. She is saying they can't bring to remembrance sins that need to be confessed. That's because they're aren't any!

Quote:
But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}


They "have no concealed wrongs to reveal." They can't bring any concealed wrong (i.e. unconfessed sins) to remembrance to confess, because they're aren't any. They've already been confessed (they have gone beforehand to judgment).

When considering an interpretation, especially what might be an over literal one, it is prudent to consider the implications of the interpretation being considered. For example, consider a person who is 50 years old, and was recently converted, has become part of the 144,000, and is going through the processing being described, trying to bring to memory sins to be confessed. Now if what she means is that they literally cannot remember anything they did which was sin, then the entirety of their memory would be erased! The first 47, 48, 49 years or so (until the person was converted) was nothing but sin. So he would have no memory of his childhood, youth, or adulthood, other than the last number of months from the time he was converted.

Waggoner's idea fits. It seems clear he had the EGW quote in mind. He offers an interpretation which fits the common sense test.

The Bible says that God will remember our sins no more. Do you think this means He can't remember what we did?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: Tom] #104045
10/26/08 10:29 PM
10/26/08 10:29 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. (John 2:11)


All of Jesus' disciples, with the exception of Judas, believed in Christ, which is to say, they were born again. We seem them learning in their experience as they were with Christ. This is an object lesson for us! The same prejudices, mistakes, lack of faith, in their lives are present in ours. We miss much of the blessing Jesus wished to impart to us if we cut off their experience from ours, as if it weren't relevant to us, because they weren't converted.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will we continue to sin till we die.? [Re: Tom] #104047
10/26/08 11:22 PM
10/26/08 11:22 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
It may be true that they do not think of sin/sinning any more, but that is not what the GC quote says. She says they cannot recall the sins.

She is not saying their memory is faulty. She is not saying they don't remember what they did.

Did you read the quote MM posted?

Quote:
They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. {3SG 134.2}

The plain meaning of the text is that they could not bring the sins they had committed, which have been pardoned, to remembrance.

Originally Posted By: Tom
She is saying they can't bring to remembrance sins that need to be confessed. That's because they're aren't any!

Quote:
But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

They "have no concealed wrongs to reveal." They can't bring any concealed wrong (i.e. unconfessed sins) to remembrance to confess, because they're aren't any. They've already been confessed (they have gone beforehand to judgment).

You are doing some serious violence to the text. In the phrase, "they cannot bring them to remembrance," what is the antecedent of "them"? It is sins that have been blotted out.

You say that they cannot remember because there's nothing to remember. Your interpretation would have her saying that these nonexistent sins were blotted out. That makes a mockery of the judgment and the Judge.

Originally Posted By: Tom
When considering an interpretation, especially what might be an over literal one, it is prudent to consider the implications of the interpretation being considered.

Do you believe that the life of an unconverted person is one long, continuous sin? That if he cannot remember his sins, then he will not remember anything? I don't think so.

But you seem to have difficulty grasping the possibility that God can make you forget something. How about the disciples? They didn't recognize Jesus, even after the years of labor together.

God is resourceful and powerful. Don't underestimate what He can do, even if it goes against your current belief system. Especially if a prophet says He's going to do it.

If I filtered everything I read by what I already believe, I would never learn anything significantly new, and neither would I detect any of my errors.

Originally Posted By: Tom
The Bible says that God will remember our sins no more. Do you think this means He can't remember what we did?

No. It means He will not take it into account when dealing with sinners.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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