HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
kland 15
Rick H 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
dedication
dedication
Canada
Posts: 6,411
Joined: April 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,847 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 41 of 55 1 2 39 40 41 42 43 54 55
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #105087
11/24/08 05:05 PM
11/24/08 05:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Jesus did not have an evil heart; instead, He was incarnated with the same sinful flesh you and I inherited at birth. Yes, His sinless, divine nature recoiled from evil; nevertheless, His sinful nature clamored for sinful expression. Such clamoring do not constitute a sin, nor does it contaminate or corrupt character.

A: We have two sources of sin: Satan and the evil of our own hearts. That's according to the MB quote. If Jesus did not have an evil heart, that only leaves Him with Satan as a source of temptation. Right?

M: Arnold, the Bible says Jesus was tempted in "all points like as we are".

A: The MB quote says temptation comes from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. Do you believe there are other sources of temptation besides these two?

Yes. I believe hereditary traits and tendencies are a third source of temptation. I view it in the following way:

1. External sources of temptation include evil angels, unholy people, and all manner of places and things like taverns, music, movies, etc. All these originate outside of us and are channeled through our faculties of mind and body and flesh.

2. Internal sources of temptation include (a) hereditary traits and tendencies and (b) cultivated sinful traits of character (aka "the old man", "the evil of our own heart"). Both of these originate inside of us.

After our "old man" is crucified, that is, after we experience genuine rebirth, and while we are abiding in Jesus, while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while we are partaking of the divine nature 2(b) cannot tempt us from within.

Jesus was tempted by 1 and 2(a).

Do you agree?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #105089
11/24/08 05:27 PM
11/24/08 05:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

Do you believe that Jesus had a corrupt nature?

Quote:
Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. {16MR 182.3}

Yes, Jesus' flesh was sinful, nevertheless, His character was sinless. He came "in the likeness of sinful flesh". (Rom 8:3) His flesh nature warred against Him in the same way and for the same reasons it wars against us.

The word "nature", as it relates to human nature, means many different things in the SOP. It can mean either the higher powers of the mind, the lower powers of the flesh, the appetites and passions, the faculties and functions of the body, the desires of the heart, or cultivated traits of character. The context determines the exact meaning.

Jesus inherited at incarnation everything we inherit at birth. In this sense, His "nature" (everything save character) was fallen and corrupt the same as ours. The only difference between us and Jesus is that He never, ever sinned. Therefore, He never developed "old man" traits of character. In this sense His "nature" (character) was sinless and uncorrupted.

Like Jesus, the 144,000 will possess a nature that is both sinful and sinless. That is, their characters will be sinless, whereas, everything else will be sinful and corrupt. They will stand before God without an Intercessor. They will be blameless and without spot. From this I must conclude possessing sinful flesh, which wars against us, does not corrupt or contaminate us. Nor did it corrupt or contaminate Jesus.

Do you agree?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105198
11/26/08 05:52 PM
11/26/08 05:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Bump for Arnold.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105510
12/03/08 08:41 PM
12/03/08 08:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Bump again.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105530
12/04/08 01:50 AM
12/04/08 01:50 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
I agree with some, disagree with others.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
A: The MB quote says temptation comes from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. Do you believe there are other sources of temptation besides these two?

Yes. I believe hereditary traits and tendencies are a third source of temptation.

I don't agree with this. Why don't hereditary traits and tendencies count as evil of our own hearts? 1) They are in our own hearts. 2) They are evil. So why don't they count?

Also, how significant do you think is the impact of these "hereditary traits and tendencies" in terms of tempting one to sin, which is the context of the EGW quote? If you are correct that it constitutes a third source, EGW must not have considered it significant, since she completely ignored it.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
1. External sources of temptation include evil angels, unholy people, and all manner of places and things like taverns, music, movies, etc. All these originate outside of us and are channeled through our faculties of mind and body and flesh.

I agree, though I don't see your distinction between "body" and "flesh" as far as channels through which we are tempted.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
2. Internal sources of temptation include (a) hereditary traits and tendencies and (b) cultivated sinful traits of character (aka "the old man", "the evil of our own heart"). Both of these originate inside of us.

I agree that both are internal. I disagree with the concept that 2b is "evil of our own heart" while 2a is either not evil or not of our own heart.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
After our "old man" is crucified, that is, after we experience genuine rebirth, and while we are abiding in Jesus, while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while we are partaking of the divine nature 2(b) cannot tempt us from within.

I disagree with this. 2b continues to tempt, but the Spirit-empowered Christian does not succumb. At least that's where I stand now; there are quotes that suggest what you are saying. I still have to wrestle with them.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus was tempted by 1 and 2(a).

I disagree. Did you read my little analysis of the relative strength of Christ's external and internal temptations? Check them out here: primary source of Christ's temptations and Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #105555
12/04/08 08:30 PM
12/04/08 08:30 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The heart in Scripture represents the innermost part of man, where he does his deep thinking. We don't inherit our heart.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #105639
12/06/08 01:55 AM
12/06/08 01:55 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, the following passages make it clear that we are born with hereditary traits and tendencies which me must learn to rein in, to keep under the control of a sanctified will and mind.

Quote:
Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

The first experience of the new convert is happy and joyous; but trials come; the perplexities of life are to be met; sinful traits of character that have not been controlled, strive for the mastery, and too frequently obtain it. {SD 89.3}

Self will strive for the mastery and will be opposed to the work of bringing the life and thoughts, the will and affections, into subjection to the will of Christ. {2T 687.3}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. {MB 141.3}

Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. {VSS 304.4}

If before the birth of her child she is self-indulgent, if she is selfish, impatient, and exacting, these traits will be reflected in the disposition of the child. Thus many children have received as a birthright almost unconquerable tendencies to evil. {AH 256.1}

Each soul inherits certain un-Christlike traits of character. It is the grand and noble work of a lifetime to keep under control these tendencies to wrong. {HP 231.2}

Children inherit inclinations to wrong, but they also have many lovely traits of character. These should be strengthened and developed, while the tendencies to evil should be carefully guarded against and repressed. {1MCP 144.4}

Men may possess capabilities given them in trust of God, but if they are not humble men, daily converted men, as vessels of honor, they will do the greater harm because of their capabilities. If they are not learners of Christ Jesus, if they do not pray and keep their natural hereditary and cultivated tendencies under control, traits of character that God abhors will pervert the judgment of those who associate with them. {4BC 1138.5}

It will be well to remember that tendencies of character are transmitted from parents to children. Meditate seriously upon these things, and then in the fear of God gird on the armor for a life conflict with hereditary tendencies, imitating none but the divine Pattern. {4T 438.2}

Fear lest your will shall not be held in subjection to Christ's will, lest your hereditary and cultivated traits of character shall control your life. {COL 161.1}

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. {CH 440.1}

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105648
12/06/08 07:03 AM
12/06/08 07:03 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, do you have Zurcher's book? There's a quote in there which applies "evil tendencies" to Jesus, in a manner similar to GC 489.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #105686
12/07/08 12:45 AM
12/07/08 12:45 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I don't have Zurcher's book. But I found this online:

Whidden quotes from Jean Zurcher’s book, Touched with Our Feelings: A Historical Survey of Adventist Thought on the Human Nature of Christ:

Christ did not come “in power and splendor,” or even with the sinless nature of Adam…

This does not imply, however, that Jesus inherited “evil tendencies” from Adam. Although the body of Christ was subject to physical deterioration and inherited the weaknesses of man’s physical constitution , He inherited none of the inclinations to evil associated with fallen human nature.

http://egwrctx.info/three-adventist-views-for-the-humanity-of-christ_120/

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #105716
12/07/08 06:49 AM
12/07/08 06:49 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There's a quote in the Zurcher book which speaks of Christ's having "evil tendencies" in the same sense as GC 489. That is:

Quote:
There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery.


In the case of Christ, of course, these are innocent tendencies which are passed on by heredity. It's interesting, of course, that she would refer to these tendencies as "evil." However, there are many strong statements about Christ's assumed human nature ("defiled and degraded by sin," "sinful," "offending") so it's not that surprising; there's nothing good about our flesh.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Page 41 of 55 1 2 39 40 41 42 43 54 55

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1