|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,593
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#106617
12/27/08 10:08 PM
12/27/08 10:08 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
In SDA theology Christ desired and lusted to sin but did not yield to His temptation to sin.... do we give the impression we believe this? apparently we do. in light of that should we be more careful? Unfortunately, Teresaq, I think many Adventists do believe this. Are you familiar with Dennis Preibe? He wrote a book, nearly 20 years ago, called "Face to Face With the Real Gospel". He is considered a Conservative among Adventists. He is/was (not sure) a professor at one of our schools.... Most conservatives we talk with, think he is correct in his thinking...and this is from the first edition of the book...(he since reprinted it and reworded it, but he told us personally he still believes what he originally wrote)...Years ago, after my husband and I had both read this book, he wrote a little booklet called, "Beware of the Leaven of the Pharisess".... I'll quote a bit of it here...sorry it is so long....but if you read it, I think you'll find it very enlightening. The first point that I want to look at is on pg. 59 (FACE TO FACE *). “Why did Jesus say, ‘I seek not mine own will’ (John 5:30), and ‘I come down from heaven, not to do mine own will’ (John 7:38)? Why would it be necessary to say this if His own will was faultless and pure, and holy? But if His own will and His own inclinations were tending toward the negative, then it would make sense for Him to ask that His Father’s will be done.” Please realize that Priebe is here saying that Jesus’ will was NOT “faultless, pure and holy” and also that “His own will and His own inclinations were tending toward the negative.” He is also interpreting John 5 & 6 to be saying that Jesus’ “will” was different than His Father’s. There are two parts to this that I want to examine: His “will” and His “inclination”.
Priebe says, “His own will was tending toward the negative.” I just want to compare this to three Spirit of Prophecy quotes.
i read the first paragraph and skimmed the rest. yes, i know of priebe. i havent really read much of his material-it doesnt feed the soul. i believe him to be an honest, sincere soul, otherwise, as im sure most "overboarders" are.  egw says somewhere that we should study the temptations of Christ, which this discussion, as well as another one, is driving me to do. thanks, daryl!! “Why did Jesus say, ‘I seek not mine own will’ (John 5:30), and ‘I come down from heaven, not to do mine own will’ (John 7:38)? Why would it be necessary to say this if His own will was faultless and pure, and holy? he not only completely missed the point here, he eradicated the real reason. i thought this was very good and impressive. i wish our brother had stayed with this thought which is a lesson for us. Christ depended in the Father all the time. Christ Himself, who made the worlds, was all the time in that sinful flesh of mine and yours which He took. He who made the worlds was there in His divine presence all the time, but never did He allow Himself to appear at all or to do anything at all that was done. That was kept back, and when these temptations come upon Him, He could have annihilated them all with the
assertion--in righteousness of His divine self. But if He had done so, it would have ruined us. To have asserted Himself, to have allowed Himself to appear, even in righteousness, would have ruined us, because we who are only wicked never would have had anything before us then but the manifestation of self. Set before men who are only wicked, manifestation of self, even in divine righteousness, as an example to be followed and you simply make men that much more confirmed in selfishness and the wickedness of selfishness. Therefore, in order that we in our wicked selves might be delivered from our wicked selves, the divine One, the holy One, kept under, surrendered, emptied all the manifestation of His righteous self. And that does accomplish it. He accomplished it by keeping Himself back all the time and leaving everything entirely to the Father to hold Him against these temptations. He was Conqueror through the grace and power of the Father, which came to Him upon His trust and upon His emptying Himself of self. p. 17, Para. 33, [GC1895].
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Daryl]
#106628
12/27/08 11:36 PM
12/27/08 11:36 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
I came across the following statement in relation to this aspect of the life of Christ:
In SDA theology Christ desired and lusted to sin but did not yield to His temptation to sin....
If anybody told you what I quoted above, how would you have responded to this? Would you have agreed with the above quoted statement, or would you have disagreed with it? Why would you either agree or disagree? I would clarify it in the following way: In SDA theology the sinful flesh Jesus inherited at birth tempted Him to indulge the sins common to man, but not only did He resist the unholy clamorings of His fallen flesh, He was also repulsed by them.
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#106644
12/28/08 07:56 AM
12/28/08 07:56 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Regarding Richard's post, this was put together during the time of Walter Martin's research for his book on SDA's. Non SDA's had publications which listed certain groups as "cults," including Seventh-day Adventism. They had several points they used, including relying upon some extra-Biblical authority, not believing in salvation by faith, and not believing the Christ is divine. The idea that Christ took sinful flesh (often misstated in less precise forms) was used in terms of trying to assert that SDA's had an unacceptable view of Christology. To counteract this, SDA leadership suggested that no, we did not believe that Christ took the nature of Adam after the fall, that this was the idea of a "lunatic fringe," although the following prominent Adventists were among supports of those who held this position: Francis Nichol, W. H. Branson, Ray Cottrell, Don Neufeld ... E. J. Waggoner, A. T. Jones, S. N. Haskell, W. W. Prescott, Uriah Smith, M. C. Wilcox, G. W. Reaser, G. B. Thompson, M. E. Kern, C. M. Snow, C. P. Bollman, Mead MacGuire, C. B.Haynes, I. H. Evans, L. A. Wilcox. William Wirth, E. F. Hackman, A. G. Daniells, Oscar Tait, Allen Walker, Merlin Neff, W. E. Howell, Gwynne Dalrymple, T. M French, J. L. McElhany, C. Lester Bond, E. K. Slade, J. E. Fulton, D. H. Kress, Frederick Lee, L. H. Wood, A. V. Olson, Christian Edwardson, J. C. Stevens, F. M. Wilcox, A. W. Truman, F. G. Clifford, Varner Johns, Dallas Young, J. B. Conley, Fenton Edwin Froom, W. E. Read, J. A. McMillan, Benjamin Hoffman, H. L. Rudy, ... M. L. Andreasen ( www.qod.andrews.edu/docs/11_herbert_douglass.doc) What Hebert Douglas wrote gives an interesting account of Adventist history in regards to our switch in position. It's difficult to summarize briefly, so I won't attempt to do so, but just caution that one should take into account that there was an agenda in place as a backdrop for the quotes Richard provided. Regarding the quotes themselves, there can be no question that Ellen White believed Christ took the sinful or fallen human nature common to humanity, a position she affirmed several hundred times. For example: He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. (MM 181) The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.(7SDABC 926) Christ did in reality unite the offending nature of man with his own sinless nature, because by this act of condescension he would be enabled to pour out his blessings in behalf of the fallen race.(RH 7/17/00) Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon Himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal. (DA 112) It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49) These are just a few. Perhaps the strong evidence that Ellen White's position was post-lapsarian (i.e., Christ took the human nature of Adam after the fall) is obtained when considering the historic setting in which she lived. For example, S. N. Haskell, when fighting against the Holy Flesh teachings, wrote to her: It is the greatest mixture of fanaticism in the truth that I ever have seen. I would not claim that we managed it the best way in everything, and yet I do not know where I made any mistake. We tried to do the very best we could, and had they not have talked against us and misrepresented our position, there would have been no confusion with the people. But when we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned, notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us.
Their point of theology in this particular respect seems to be this: They believe that Christ took Adam’s nature before He fell; so He took humanity as it was in the garden of Eden; and thus humanity was holy, and this was the humanity which Christ had; and now, they say, the particular time has come for us to become holy in that same sense, and then we will have "translation faith"; and never die" (RH 9/25/00)
This idea, that Christ took Adam's nature before he fell, is one that Haskell and EGW were fighting against. Then, a week later, Haskel wrote an editorial in the Review and Herald, stating: . . . [O]n pages 361, 362 [our present edition 311, 312]: "Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome. Made ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ he lived a sinless life. Now by his divinity he lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by his humanity he reaches us." (RH 10/2/00) Haskell was quoting from the Desire of Ages: Then he commented: "This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness." Here we see Haskell quoting from Ellen White, and interpret her meaning, in a public paper, to dispute a teaching that he and Ellen White were working on together to confront. It's inconceivable that Ellen White would allow Haskell to incorrectly quote her, given the circumstances. Other historic evidence includes that Ellen White endorsed the postlapsarian sermon of W. W. Prescoss entitled something like "The Word Was Made Flesh." She wrote: Truth was separated from error, and made, by the divine Spirit, to shine like precious jewels. The theme of this sermon was that Christ took our sinful nature. There's quite a lot more similar historic evidence, but I'll let this already long post end here.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rick H]
#106645
12/28/08 11:22 AM
12/28/08 11:22 AM
|
|
|
In SDA theology Christ desired and lusted to sin but did not yield to His temptation to sin.... do we give the impression we believe this? apparently we do. in light of that should we be more careful? Unfortunately, Teresaq, I think many Adventists do believe this. Are you familiar with Dennis Preibe? He wrote a book, nearly 20 years ago, called "Face to Face With the Real Gospel". He is considered a Conservative among Adventists. He is/was (not sure) a professor at one of our schools.... Most conservatives we talk with, think he is correct in his thinking...and this is from the first edition of the book...(he since reprinted it and reworded it, but he told us personally he still believes what he originally wrote)...Years ago, after my husband and I had both read this book, he wrote a little booklet called, "Beware of the Leaven of the Pharisess".... I'll quote a bit of it here...sorry it is so long....but if you read it, I think you'll find it very enlightening. The first point that I want to look at is on pg. 59 (FACE TO FACE *). “Why did Jesus say, ‘I seek not mine own will’ (John 5:30), and ‘I come down from heaven, not to do mine own will’ (John 7:38)? Why would it be necessary to say this if His own will was faultless and pure, and holy? But if His own will and His own inclinations were tending toward the negative, then it would make sense for Him to ask that His Father’s will be done.” Please realize that Priebe is here saying that Jesus’ will was NOT “faultless, pure and holy” and also that “His own will and His own inclinations were tending toward the negative.” He is also interpreting John 5 & 6 to be saying that Jesus’ “will” was different than His Father’s. There are two parts to this that I want to examine: His “will” and His “inclination”.
Priebe says, “His own will was tending toward the negative.” I just want to compare this to three Spirit of Prophecy quotes.
“The WILL, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service.” DA-668.
“The time of the Passover was drawing near, and again Jesus turned toward Jerusalem. In His heart was the peace of PERFECT ONENESS WITH THE Father’s WILL, and with eager steps He pressed on toward the place of sacrifice.” DA-547. “...perfect ones with the Father’s WILL”. Can Priebe’s statements and this quote be made to harmonize?
The last quote may be the best one for this comparison, because it is from the chapter in Desire of Ages, which is a commentary on John 5, which Priebe uses to say that Jesus’ will was contrary to His Father’s and that “His own will was tending toward the negative.” In Desire of Ages, pg. 208 she says, “Jesus repelled the charge of blasphemy. My authority, He said, for doing the work of which you accuse Me, is that I am the Son of God, one with Him in nature, in WILL, and in purpose.” In the very discourse where Jesus is claiming His oneness with God, (“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” John 5:18.), and where Ellen White says He is “one with Him in WILL”, Priebe is saying “His will was tending toward the negative”, and contrary to His Father’s. I find this incredible! Please read those chapters for yourself – John 5 and “Bethesaida and the Sanhedrin” and decide for yourself. On pg. 210 of Desire of Ages, she says, “The humble Nazarene asserts His real nobility. He rises above humanity, throws off the guise of sin and shame, and stands revealed, the Honored of the angels, the Son of God, One with the Creator of the universe. His hearers are spellbound. No man has ever spoken words like His, or borne himself with such a kingly majesty. His utterances are clear and plain, fully declaring His mission, and the duty of the world.”
And as an answer to the often asked questions, “Why did Jesus say ‘I seek not mine own will’?” First, He was trying to make them understand that everything He did was from God the Father – Whom they claimed to acknowledge as their supreme Ruler – (Jesus, they didn’t acknowledge), and that in rejecting Him, they were truly rejecting God. “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.” John 5:23. A similar statement is found in one of the very next chapters of John’s Gospel, where He says, “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.” John 7:16. Again He was trying to make them understand that in rejecting His “doctrine”, they were in reality, rejecting God’s doctrine. No on would ever say that Jesus was here saying His “doctrine” was different from His Fathers’. Secondly, Jesus was showing an EXAMPE of submission and surrender to God, just as He was baptized as an example. Please read pgs. 208 and 209 of Desire of Ages. She gives a very strong illustration of this. And in the midst it says, “He (Jesus) said, ‘I DELIGHT to do Thy WILL....” (Psalms 40:8).
The Bible says God’s will is, “This is the WILL of God even your sanctification.” 1 Thes. 4:3. IF Jesus’ will was different from God’s, what would this mean? Ellen White says, “From His earliest years He was possessed of one purpose; He lived to bless others.” DA-70. “Jesus alone could read this secret. Yet He did not expose him. Jesus hungered for his soul. He felt for him such a burden as for Jerusalem when He wept over the doomed city. His heart was crying, ‘How can I give thee up’?” I believe it can be equally said of Jesus: “This is the will of God, even your sanctification.”
The other part of the quote that I want to look at concerns His “inclinations”. “His own INCLINATION was tending toward the negative”, Priebe says in FACE TO FACE, pg. 59. In BC-1128, Ellen White says, “NEVER in ANY way, leave the SLIGHTEST impression upon human minds that a taint of or INCLINATION to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption.” Please read this quote over and over and let every word have its proper bearing, and then compare both quotes very carefully. There is no way that these quotes can be made to harmonize. The subject of our “inclinations” deserves further study, but I won’t spend time on that in this paper.
The next quote I want to look at is on FACE to FACE, pg. 60. Here he says “He knew what it was like to want to go wrong. He knew what it was like to feel the temptation to rebel against God, and that temptation arose within His nature.” There are also two points in this quote that I want to examine. First, “He knew what it was like to WANT to go wrong”. Please realize that he is saying Jesus knew by experience. I again want to compare a few Ellen White quotes with this statement. The first is from 1888 Materials pg. 538. “...as we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ we have a power and a strength that is imparted unto us, and we will not WANT to sin.” “...we will not WANT to sin”. Again, I believe there is no way these two quotes can be made to harmonize. Here are a few more to consider. “Never before had there been a being upon the earth who hated sin with so perfect a hatred as did Christ.” 1SM-254. “...Never lived there another who so hated evil.” ED-79. Try to think of anything you have a “perfect” hatred for and then ask yourself if you “want” to do it. In 7BC-927, she says, “...the refined sensibilities of His holy nature rendered contact with evil unspeakably painful to Him.” Can you imagine “wanting” to do something that in just witnessing it you find “unspeakably painful”? She also says, “...as the sinless one His nature recoiled from evil.” SC-93, 94.
Please allow me to make one illustration. To me, one of the most sickening things I can think of is child sexual abuse. If there is anything I “hate with a perfect hatred”, “recoil” from, find “unspeakably painful”, it is this. I believe with all my heart that never in a million years would I for one second “WANT” to do this.
The second part of that quote I want to look at says, “He knew what it was like to feel the temptation to rebel against God, AND THAT TEMPTATION, AROSE FROM WITHIN HIS NATURE.” FACE to FACE, pg. 60. In Mount of Blessings, pg. 116, it says, “Temptation is enticement to sin, and this does not proceed from God, but from #1) from Satan and #2) from the evil of our own hearts.” I find Priebe’s quote very disturbing in the light of this quote. Now coming from a different aspect is this quote, “The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from WITHIN.” AA-551. Once again I find a serious conflict between what Ellen White says and what Priebe says.
On pg. 59, Priebe says, “Are not our problems basically self and pride and the desire that come from our fallen nature? Do we not fall most often because of the inner desire that lead us astray? If Jesus did not have any of these, could it really be true that He was tempted in all points as we are?” This quote is absolutely incredible! And I thank God that he chose the specific words that he did – SELF and PRIDE.
Please compare his statement with the following six quotes:
1). “So utterly was Christ emptied of SELF that He made no plans for Himself.”
DA-208.
2). “The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from
heaven; while PRIDE, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked.
But these are sins that are especially offense to God; for they are contrary
to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the
very atmosphere of the unfallen universe.” SC-30.
3). “The divine love ruling in the heart EXTERMINATES PRIDE and selfishness.”
5T-168.
4). “Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest; but he
who learns of Christ is EMPTIED of SELF, of PRIDE, of love of supremacy,
and there is silence in the soul.” MB-15.
5). “PRIDE, ambition, deceit, hatred, selfishness, must be cleansed from the
heart.” 5T-175.
6). “It was the PRIDE and ambition cherished in the heart of Satan that
banished him from heaven. These evils are deeply rooted in our fallen
nature, and if not REMOVED they will overshadow every good and noble
quality and bring forth envy and strife as their baleful fruits.” 5T-242.
There is one more very important point which must be examined. It concerns what Christ inherited by nature. Priebe is very correct in opposing the New Theology teaching that Christ came with an unfallen nature or the nature of Adam before the fall. But in doing this he makes some very grave mistakes. On pg. 55, he says, “If Jesus’ life is to have any meaning as an example for us, then it is crucial that He inherit just what I inherit.” In his own book, Priebe says, “We do inherit BADNESS, weakness, and CORRUPTION from Adam.” Pg. 27. Again Priebe says on pg. 55, “...it is, crucial that He inherit just what I inherit.” Ellen White says,”...Because of sin his (Adam’s) posterity was BORN with PROPENSITIES OF DISOBEDIENCE. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God...not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity.” BC-1128. Ellen White clearly teaches WE INHERIT evil propensities, in the same paragraph she contrasts Christ with us and she says He did not inherit evil propensities.” On pg. 54, he says, “The crucial point is that a sinful propensity is permitted to develop from our INHERITED bent to evil. Jesus never developed such sinful propensities.” And on pg. 55, is the sentence, “If Jesus’ life is to have any meaning as an example for us, then it is CRUCIAL that He inherit JUST what I inherit.” Please reread those last two quotes very closely. Priebe is clearly and openly teaching that Jesus Christ had a bent to evil. Please give this point some very serious thought and study. How you stand on it is absolutely critical. Remember, “He is the Pattern Man.” 7BC-970. Tammy, In what I have studied of his writings, I have not come across where Dennis Preibe says that Christ desired or lusted to sin, do you have a link or sermon...? As for any Adventist believing this, I have never come across this... Rick Good Morning, Richard, I only have his original printing here...but as I said before, we spoke with him personally, and he stands by what he said in the 1985 edition. Priebe says, "Are not our problems basically self and pride and the desires that come from our fallen natures? Do we not fall most often because of the inner desires that lead us astray? If Jesus did not have any of these, could it really be true that He was tempted in all points as we are?" FF-59. Compare his statement here to what Inspiration says of self and pride: “It was the PRIDE and ambition cherished in the heart of Satan that banished him from heaven. These evils are deeply rooted in our fallen nature, and if not REMOVED they will overshadow every good and noble quality and bring forth envy and strife as their baleful fruits.” 5T-242.
“Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest; but he who learns of Christ is EMPTIED of SELF, of PRIDE, of love of supremacy, and there is silence in the soul.” MB-15. And, on the same page in his book, he says, Note that He had to resist the inclination to use His power. Where did that inclination come from if not from within, from His own desires? Why did Jesus say, 'I seek not mine own will' (John 5:30), and 'I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will' (John 6:38)? Why would it be necessary to say this if His own will was faultless and pure and holy? But, if His own will and His own inclination were tending toward the negative, then it would make sense for Him to ask that His Father's will be done.
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#106646
12/28/08 12:02 PM
12/28/08 12:02 PM
|
|
|
Kevin Paulson, who agrees with Priebe, says it like this: 'His character revealed a perfect hatred for sin' (5BC 1142).
But notice it is the CHARACTER, not the flesh, that is being referred to here. It doesn't say Jesus' fleshly nature revealed a perfect hatred for sin, but rather, His character. And regarding the statement that "the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me" (John 14:30), Ellen White is clear this is a matter of CHERISHED sinful desires, not the lower nature we are born with. Statement made on GCOList 2004. Another statement by Paulson: In the pamphlet A Solemn Appeal, devoted to the topic of sexual indulgence, listen to what Ellen White says about Jesus' familiarity with our temptations:
"All are accountable for their actions while upon probation in this world. All have power to control their actions. If they are weak in virtue and purity of thoughts and acts, they can obtain help from the Friend of the helpless. Jesus is acquainted with all the weaknesses of human nature, and if entreated, will give strength to overcome the most powerful temptations" (A Solemn Appeal, p. 78; quoted in OHC 337).
I might add that the only weaknesses being discussed in the context of this statement are sexual weaknesses. Ellen White is certainly not speaking here of benign human weaknesses such as hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc. The weaknesses being described in the above context, which our Lord is here declared to be "aquainted with," are internal inclinations toward sexual indulgence and immorality.
And how, let us consider again, is Jesus declared to "know" our weaknesses?
"He knows BY EXPERIENCE what are the weaknesses of humanity, what are our wants, and where lies the strength of our temptations, for He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (DA 3329).
Notice once again how Jesus knows "by experience . . . where lies the strength of our tempations," the strongest of which--according to the previous passage--come from within...
Can you see how this thinking does not agree with the Spirit of Prophecy?
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#106647
12/28/08 12:20 PM
12/28/08 12:20 PM
|
|
|
Here is one more statement from Paulson: In short, Jesus had sinful passions and evil propensities in His lower nature, where He kept them under the control of a sanctified will -- as indeed we may, through His power. But He did not have these passions and propensities in His higher nature, where we need not retain them either. Copied from another forum. . Ellen White NEVER, NEVER says anything like this!
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#106659
12/28/08 06:09 PM
12/28/08 06:09 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
Here is one more statement from Paulson: In short, Jesus had sinful passions and evil propensities in His lower nature, where He kept them under the control of a sanctified will -- as indeed we may, through His power. But He did not have these passions and propensities in His higher nature, where we need not retain them either. Copied from another forum. . Ellen White NEVER, NEVER says anything like this! cringe!! this is the problem. whatever validity post-laps might have/had many are disregarding the clear warnings of egw and keep going deeper and deeper into what is a mystery and where angels fear to tread. and so that the post-laps dont feel picked on here and dig in their heels completely missing the point of concern. pre-laps, according to egw went too far the other way saying Jesus could not be tempted at all. higher/lower nature? 
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: teresaq]
#106669
12/28/08 08:04 PM
12/28/08 08:04 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
I agree with Tom on this important truth. Jesus was tempted from within and from without in the same way we are and for the same reasons we are. He also developed sinless traits of character in the same way we do and with a sinful flesh like the one we inherit at birth. His experience in sinful flesh teaches us there is no nature so rebellious that He cannot subdue it. Being tempted from within or from without in no way contaminates the character. It's not what goes in but what comes out that determines guilt or innocence. Listen:
A man may be trying to serve God, but temptations from within and from without assail him. Satan and his angels urge and coax him to transgress. {9T 222.2}
The enemy is on the track of every one of us, and if we would resist temptations which assail us from without and from within, we need to make sure we are on the Lord's side . . . {TMK 301.5}
Every one of us needs to have a deep insight into the teachings of the Word of God. Our minds must be prepared to stand every test and to resist every temptation, whether from without or from within. {1MCP 67.4}
There is no difficulty within or without that cannot be surmounted in His strength. . . There is no nature so rebellious that Christ cannot subdue it, no temper so stormy that He cannot quell it, if the heart is surrendered to His keeping. {HP 17.4}
But through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet slide imperceptibly into sin. {CT 424.3}
Apart from divine power, no genuine reform can be effected. Human barriers against natural and cultivated tendencies are but as the sandbank against the torrent. Not until the life of Christ becomes a vitalizing power in our lives can we resist the temptations that assail us from within and from without. {2MCP 760.2}
True character is not something shaped from without, or put on, but it is something radiating from within. If true goodness, purity, meekness, lowliness, and equity are dwelling in the heart, that fact will be reflected in the character; and such a character is full of power. {TDG 146.4}
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: teresaq]
#106670
12/28/08 08:06 PM
12/28/08 08:06 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Here's something she wrote: Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield, for God made him pure and upright in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet with temptations of Satan, He bore the "likeness of sinful flesh" This speaks of "corrupt principles" and "tendencies to evil." Paulson writes (from the article Daryl is discussing: Put simply, this passage makes no sense unless we acknowledge that Christ had tendencies to evil in His lower nature. Note again that it says Adam had no "indwelling sin," "no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil." Then the next sentence reads, "But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore the 'likeness of sinful flesh'". All the arguments we often hear about the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) are beside the point so far as this statement is concerned, since the expression is used here to draw a contrast with the unfallen Adam -- who, the statement tells us, had no indwelling sin, corrupt principles, or tendencies to evil. Certainly such terms as "indwelling sin" and "corrupt principles" could not apply to Jesus, but at least it must be acknowledged that Jesus' fleshly nature included tendencies to evil. Otherwise the statement offers no contrast with Adam, and makes no sense at all.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#106676
12/28/08 08:48 PM
12/28/08 08:48 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
who is arguing that we cannot overcome all evil in our characters?
you all dont see that some go too far?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
