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Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107439
01/11/09 04:35 AM
01/11/09 04:35 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,984
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Quote:
tom: In the case of Moses and the Sabbath-breaker, I believe the hunter father analogy applies. It's not simply that the individual Jews who approached Moses were uncertain how to proceed, but there was the mindset of the whole nation to consider. God had to work with an entire nation of ignorant, backward folks (who had to be told to do things like bury their dung) who had just been slaves, so God did the best He could given the circumstances He was in.


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, are you suggesting commanding Moses to bury his dung explains why God commanded him to kill sinners?


hi mm, im really confused as to how you could draw your question from the point tom was making.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107445
01/11/09 07:31 AM
01/11/09 07:31 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:Such actions on God's part to not represent His ideal will. We see His ideal will expressed in Christ.

Some examples that have been mentioned in regards to this are polygamy, divorce, and the granting of a king. None of these things were God's will, yet He permitted them.

M:Tom, are you suggesting polygamy was not a sin?


I don't understand your question, or, rather, why you are asking this question. What I wrote was the things I mentioned are examples of things which God permitted which are not His ideal will.

Regarding your first two questions, of 107432, they don't make any sense to me.

Quote:
T:Regarding your assertion that Christ did not reveal the wrath of God, I think you're mistaken. First of all, all man can know about God was revealed by Jesus Christ. The wrath of God is certainly something that one can know about God. Regarding where Jesus Christ revealed this, above all He did so on the cross.

M:On the cross, it was God who withdrew His protection, who manifested His wrath - not Jesus. The cross is not an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection and sinners dying as a result, nor is it an example of Jesus commanding someone to bury their dung or to kill a sinner.


It's an example of God's wrath.

Quote:
You still haven't provided examples for these two attributes of God's character. Please stop insisting that Jesus demonstrated either one of these traits when He said, Your house is left unto you desolate. They still had three and half years of probation to go to get it right.


Regarding the dung, I guess you're making a joke. Regarding Jerusalem, Jesus said He longed to gather them as a hen protects its chicks. That was present tense. Christ would have protected them, had they been willing. He longed for that. They refused.

Regarding Christ's revealing God's character, John writes:

Quote:
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18)


According to Ellen White, this was the whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth.

Quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)


Her motivation for writing this was John 17, which is evident by reading the context of what I quoted from here.

And, of course, there's the statement that all that man can know of God was revealed by Christ.

There are other texts too, such as Heb. 1:1-3, which tell us that Christ was the exact image of the Father.

Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

What all the above tells us is that God is like Jesus Christ. So to understand the OT correctly, we need an interpretation which agrees with what we see that Jesus Christ revealed.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Tom] #107510
01/13/09 06:41 PM
01/13/09 06:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
M: The idea that God compromised the truth to accommodate the perverted desires of sinners is absurd.

T: No one has suggested this. The idea that has been suggested is that God meets people where they are, at times acceding to what they want rather than insisting on what He wants ("at times" is a very conservative way of putting this), as well as tailoring His plans to meet the reality of the hearts and mind-sets of the people He is dealing with. Such actions on God's part to not represent His ideal will. We see His ideal will expressed in Christ. Some examples that have been mentioned in regards to this are polygamy, divorce, and the granting of a king. None of these things were God's will, yet He permitted them.

M: Tom, are you suggesting polygamy was not a sin?

T: I don't understand your question, or, rather, why you are asking this question. What I wrote was the things I mentioned are examples of things which God permitted which are not His ideal will.

We've discussed this elsewhere and you argued Ellen said polygamy is a sin. You quoted the following passage to prove your point: "Polygamy . . . was no less a violation of the law of God . . ." {PP 145.1} Do you agree polygamy is a sin? If so, do you also believe God permitted it in the law of Moses?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107512
01/13/09 07:54 PM
01/13/09 07:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
T: In the case of Moses and the Sabbath-breaker, I believe the hunter father analogy applies. It's not simply that the individual Jews who approached Moses were uncertain how to proceed, but there was the mindset of the whole nation to consider. God had to work with an entire nation of ignorant, backward folks (who had to be told to do things like bury their dung) who had just been slaves, so God did the best He could given the circumstances He was in.

M: Tom, are you suggesting commanding Moses to bury his dung explains why God commanded him to kill sinners? Where in the Gospels did Jesus command someone to bury their dung or to kill a sinner?

T: Regarding your first two questions, of 107432, they don't make any sense to me.

I underlined what you wrote above about dung. You gave the answer above in response to my question as to why you think God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Burying dung and executing sinners should have been obvious to them. However, Moses and the Jews were so ignorant and sin hardened that, according to you, it forced God to explain things as simple as burying their dung and stoning sinners to death. But in so doing God ran the risk of being misunderstood by the onlooking nations (you cited your humane hunter story as proof). If this isn’t what you meant, then please explain what burying dung has to do with why you think God commanded Moses to kill the sinners. Thank you.

Quote:
M: On the cross, it was God who withdrew His protection, who manifested His wrath - not Jesus. The cross is not an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection and sinners dying as a result, nor is it an example of Jesus commanding someone to bury their dung or to kill a sinner.

T: It's an example of God's wrath.

Yes, it is. But that’s not what I’m asking you. My question has nothing to do with examples of God manifesting His wrath. I am specifically looking for examples of Jesus employing the “withdraw and permit” method of causing death and destruction while He was here in the flesh. So far you haven’t posted an example. For awhile you were insisting that Jesus declaring, “Your house is left unto you desolate” is an example of this attribute of God’s character, but declaring such a thing is not the same as thousands of people dying.

Elsewhere on this forum it is being argued that Jesus merely repeated Ezekiel’s prophecy that the temple would be destroyed in 40 years after Jesus' death. As such, the prophecy predated Jesus’ incarnation by 500 years. It would not, therefore, be an example of Jesus demonstrating how God employed the “withdraw and permit” method of causing death and destruction. It would be an example of Jesus simply saying what God has promised to do, but it is not an explanation of why God did such things in the past, nor is it a demonstration of how He did such things.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107513
01/13/09 07:59 PM
01/13/09 07:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
hi mm, im really confused as to how you could draw your question from the point tom was making.

I don't know what his point is or how it addresses the question. Do you?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107514
01/13/09 08:05 PM
01/13/09 08:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: Teresaq, in light of the topic of this thread, do you see a contradiction in the way Jesus handled the situation in relation to the woman caught in the act of adultery and the way He handled the situation in relation to Moses and the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? If not, please explain why. Thank you.

t: i repeat the da quote above sounds so contradictory to the context that i had to post the context.

Would you mind answering the question anyhow? If you do mind, then please let me know. Thank you.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107515
01/13/09 08:06 PM
01/13/09 08:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
is going against Gods will a sin? is rejecting God to reign over them a sin?

My question precisely. Here's the answer I submitted above:

Originally Posted By: MM
I don't see God compromising with sin in this case. Wanting a godly king to lead them was not a sin. Below is the part that sounds like a blessing to me. Having such a king leading the people would be nearly identical to Moses.

17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left: to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

What do you think? Have you arrived at a conclusion yet?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107532
01/14/09 03:29 AM
01/14/09 03:29 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
from 107308
Quote:
Quote:
t: i missed the part where it was supposed to turn out to be a blessing. perhaps you could point it out. whatever might have been meant how does that change the fact that God gave the israelites what they wanted and not what was His will?

Quote:
Here's the part that sounds like a blessing to me. Having such a king leading the people would be nearly identical to Moses.

17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left: to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

You asked, "Whatever might have been meant how does that change the fact that God gave the israelites what they wanted and not what was His will?" I don't see God compromising with sin in this case. Wanting a godly king to lead them was not a sin. Or, do you know of a quote that says otherwise. I know it wasn't God's ideal for them, but was having a king a sin in and of itself?


teresa:
Quote:
teresa: is going against Gods will a sin?

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.


is rejecting God to reign over them a sin?


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: teresaq
is going against Gods will a sin? is rejecting God to reign over them a sin?


My question precisely. Here's the answer I submitted above:

Originally Posted By: MM
I don't see God compromising with sin in this case. Wanting a godly king to lead them was not a sin. Below is the part that sounds like a blessing to me. Having such a king leading the people would be nearly identical to Moses.

17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, [to] the right hand, or [to] the left: to the end that he may prolong [his] days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.


so you dont see "going against Gods will" or, "rejecting God to reign over them" a sin, is what you are saying?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #107534
01/14/09 03:53 AM
01/14/09 03:53 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
from 107439

Quote:
tom: In the case of Moses and the Sabbath-breaker, I believe the hunter father analogy applies. It's not simply that the individual Jews who approached Moses were uncertain how to proceed, but there was the mindset of the whole nation to consider. God had to work with an entire nation of ignorant, backward folks (who had to be told to do things like bury their dung) who had just been slaves, so God did the best He could given the circumstances He was in.



Quote:
Mountain Man:
Tom, are you suggesting commanding Moses to bury his dung explains why God commanded him to kill sinners?


Originally Posted By: teresaq
hi mm, im really confused as to how you could draw your question from the point tom was making.




Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I don't know what his point is...


ok. smile


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: teresaq] #107541
01/14/09 09:06 AM
01/14/09 09:06 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I underlined what you wrote above about dung. You gave the answer above in response to my question as to why you think God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Burying dung and executing sinners should have been obvious to them.


What?

Quote:
However, Moses and the Jews were so ignorant and sin hardened that, according to you, it forced God to explain things as simple as burying their dung and stoning sinners to death.


What?

Quote:
But in so doing God ran the risk of being misunderstood by the onlooking nations (you cited your humane hunter story as proof). If this isn’t what you meant, then please explain what burying dung has to do with why you think God commanded Moses to kill the sinners. Thank you.


No, this isn't what I meant. I don't see how you could possibly come up with such an idea. Doesn't what you're suggesting seem rather odd?

My comment about dung was parenthetical, literally. Here's what I said, with the parenthetical portion removed:

Quote:
In the case of Moses and the Sabbath-breaker, I believe the hunter father analogy applies. It's not simply that the individual Jews who approached Moses were uncertain how to proceed, but there was the mindset of the whole nation to consider. God had to work with an entire nation of ignorant, backward folks who had just been slaves, so God did the best He could given the circumstances He was in.


Somehow you seem to have fixated on the parenthetical comment, and that impacted your understanding of what I was saying. That certainly wasn't my intent. Anyway, here's the thought again, without the parenthetical comment, which hopefully is clear.

Quote:
Yes, it is. But that’s not what I’m asking you. My question has nothing to do with examples of God manifesting His wrath. I am specifically looking for examples of Jesus employing the “withdraw and permit” method of causing death and destruction while He was here in the flesh. So far you haven’t posted an example.


I've posted several examples on different occasions.

MM, if you disagree with what's being said, that fine, you have that right, of course. But to assert that an example is not being given when one has been isn't fair. I not only posted Jerusalem as an example, but I posted other examples as well. You disagree with the underlying principle. How could you possibly agree with the examples of a principle you disagree with?

You've asked me this question several dozen times. I haven't ignored your question, but answered it. You didn't agree with my examples. That's fine. But don't assert I didn't address your question. Also, what's the point in continuing to ask a question that's been answered a couple of dozen times?

You're whole way of putting things is foreign to anything I've been communicating. Like this:

Quote:
It would not, therefore, be an example of Jesus demonstrating how God employed the “withdraw and permit” method of causing death and destruction.


I've never said anything like this. I've said this:

Quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35, 36)


I've simply said that the principles enunciated here apply to other cases besides Jerusalem. I've also said that behind any disaster, or bad thing happening, ascribed to God, the general principles spoken of here apply.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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