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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108967
02/25/09 08:25 PM
02/25/09 08:25 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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So you are saying that if I commit a sin, I am genetically altered such that chromosomes I pass on to my posterity will have an inclination to that same sin? No, I didn't say this. I said you have inherited inclinations which tempt you to sin. So you're saying that we inherit inclinations which tempt us to sin, but NOT inclinations to sin? Is that right? Or is it the "genetically" part that you are seeking to clarify, that our inherited tendencies, tendencies which tend to incline us in the direction of being tempted to disobey, are passed on in a non-genetic way? BTW, when my kids popped out, they were not merely inclined to be tempted; they were inclined to sin. And without any training at all, they were born pretty good at being selfish.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#108968
02/25/09 08:46 PM
02/25/09 08:46 PM
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SDA
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i am only jumping in to say that the way roseangela presents it is the way i have understood that statement when i read it. Thanks, Teresa. It seems that three of us interpret in the same way what Ellen White wrote in the Baker letter. Arnold said the same in his post #108485 (Feb 16): I interpret the Baker letter as making a statement of this form: Adam's posterity was born with X, but Jesus did not have X for one moment. I confirm that. She was, at least part of the time, contrasting what Jesus was born with and what the rest of us are born with.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#108969
02/25/09 08:53 PM
02/25/09 08:53 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:As far as Christ's humanity is concerned, genetically it was like ours.
R:Is a spiritual nature transmitted "genetically" or not? I don't know what this means. Inclinations are passed genetically (which aren't due to non-genetic prenatal influences).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108971
02/25/09 08:55 PM
02/25/09 08:55 PM
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SDA
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Were they (Haskell, Jones, etc.) teaching that Jesus had, for even one moment, evil propensities? Is this how they fought the HF?
Did EGW teach that Jesus had evil propensities?
Do modern postlapsarians teach that Jesus had evil propensities? No to all of these. And this is what we non-postlapsarians teach. Fully in harmony with the Baker Letter, we say that Jesus never had any evil propensities. So what's the beef against the Baker Letter? Why don't you guys like it?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108972
02/25/09 09:00 PM
02/25/09 09:00 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
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Let's get back to what Haskell said, which I think is very clear and easy to understand. "This is fallen humanity, with all its hereditary inclinations." It's not so clear; at least not in terms of my understanding of postlapsarian belief. Here are my questions from post 108873: This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness.(RH 10/2/00) Was Haskell talking about only His physical nature, or was he including Christ's mind/spiritual/moral nature? Going back to the quote he was commenting upon: He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome.(DA 311, 312) In this statement, when EGW said "nature" was she talking about only flesh? IOW, can we plug in "flesh" for every instance of "humanity" and "nature" in these two quotes and still retain their correct meaning?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108973
02/25/09 09:01 PM
02/25/09 09:01 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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A:So you are saying that if I commit a sin, I am genetically altered such that chromosomes I pass on to my posterity will have an inclination to that same sin?
T:No, I didn't say this. I said you have inherited inclinations which tempt you to sin.
A:So you're saying that we inherit inclinations which tempt us to sin, but NOT inclinations to sin? Is that right? No, I didn't say this. I said you have inherited inclinations which tempt you to sin. Or is it the "genetically" part that you are seeking to clarify, that our inherited tendencies, tendencies which tend to incline us in the direction of being tempted to disobey, are passed on in a non-genetic way? No. BTW, when my kids popped out, they were not merely inclined to be tempted; they were inclined to sin. And without any training at all, they were born pretty good at being selfish. If you're trying to confuse me, you're doing a good job. Using the way-back machine, I said: Sins cannot be passed genetically, but inclinations can be. We all know what these inclinations are like, as we're all tempted by them. The results of yielding to these temptations is shown in the history of Christ's ancestors. Christ never yielded to the temptations which come from hereditary inclinations. He shared in our heredity, being tempted as we are tempted, but never yielded. Notice I said nothing about our sinning causing chromosomes to be altered, nor about inclinations to temptations to sin viz a viz inclinations to sin. I also said: As Haskell put it in interpreting Ellen White from "The Desire of Ages," Christ assumed fallen humanity, with all its hereditary inclinations. This looks to be Ellen White's point here. Christ accepted the law of heredity, with all its inclinations, inclinations which were manifest in His ancestors.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108974
02/25/09 09:02 PM
02/25/09 09:02 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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T:As far as Christ's humanity is concerned, genetically it was like ours.
R:Is a spiritual nature transmitted "genetically" or not?
T: I don't know what this means. Inclinations are passed genetically (which aren't due to non-genetic prenatal influences). Christ was born without a taint of sin in His spiritual nature. I understood you to be saying that we aren't born without a taint of sin in our spiritual nature, that is, that we are unlike Him in this respect. Then, what you appear to be saying is that our spiritual nature is not transmitted genetically. Is this correct?
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108976
02/25/09 09:04 PM
02/25/09 09:04 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I confirm that. She was, at least part of the time, contrasting what Jesus was born with and what the rest of us are born with. Here's a spot: Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing that I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, Thy Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy6 thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
These words are not addressed to any human being, except to the Son of the Infinite God.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108977
02/25/09 09:06 PM
02/25/09 09:06 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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And this is what we non-postlapsarians teach. Fully in harmony with the Baker Letter, we say that Jesus never had any evil propensities.
So what's the beef against the Baker Letter? Why don't you guys like it? This was discussed previously. People try to use it to teach things like Christ took a sinless human nature.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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