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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110011
03/16/09 07:06 PM
03/16/09 07:06 PM
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M: God uses physical force indirectly to prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits through 1) holy angels, 2) the forces of nature, and 3) humans (i.e. armies, individuals, etc). However, there is also the story of Jesus touching Jacob's hip. This is an example of direct physical force.
T: I wouldn't call this physical force. I would say God uses influence. For example, the humans (armies, individuals) are the ones who used physical force. The influence which God uses is primarily the influence of the Holy Spirit. So, you agree that those whom God influences use physical force. Good. To what purpose? T: I don't see how you can assert that God uses physical force to achieve His purposes when we're told that force is contrary to the principles of His government. If what you alleged were true, then God would be using a principle contrary to the principles of His government. That can't be right. True, God doesn't use force to make people love and obey Him. But it is obvious that He uses physical force indirectly through 1) holy angels, 2) the forces of nature, and 3) humans to prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110012
03/16/09 07:07 PM
03/16/09 07:07 PM
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Tom, I would like to take a break from explaining how I think God prevents evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits and study what you believe.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110078
03/17/09 02:53 PM
03/17/09 02:53 PM
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T: I wouldn't call this physical force. I would say God uses influence. For example, the humans (armies, individuals) are the ones who used physical force. The influence which God uses is primarily the influence of the Holy Spirit.
M: So, you agree that those whom God influences use physical force. Good. To what purpose?
Why did you insert "use physical force" when Tom said use the influence of the Holy Spirit. Do you think the Holy Spirit uses physical force? T: I don't see how you can assert that God uses physical force to achieve His purposes when we're told that force is contrary to the principles of His government. If what you alleged were true, then God would be using a principle contrary to the principles of His government. That can't be right.
M: True, God doesn't use force to make people love and obey Him. But it is obvious that He uses physical force indirectly through 1) holy angels, 2) the forces of nature, and 3) humans to prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits. Are you saying that when Ellen White says physical force is contrary to the principles of His government she really means to qualify it by only to force people to love and obey Him? That wouldn't be clearly stated, would it? 
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: kland]
#110079
03/17/09 03:03 PM
03/17/09 03:03 PM
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T: I wouldn't call this physical force. I would say God uses influence. For example, the humans (armies, individuals) are the ones who used physical force. The influence which God uses is primarily the influence of the Holy Spirit.
MM: So, you agree that those whom God influences use physical force. Good. To what purpose?
k:Why did you insert "use physical force" when Tom said use the influence of the Holy Spirit. Do you think the Holy Spirit uses physical force? I think perhaps you misunderstood MM here. He is saying that the people who God influences use physical force. Are you saying that when Ellen White says physical force is contrary to the principles of His government she really means to qualify it by only to force people to love and obey Him? Actually she doesn't say "physical force," but "force," which is a much more forceful statement, so to speak. Most of the force we use, after progressing from childhood, is more subtle than physical force. Examples in the religious realm are "hope of reward" and "fear of punishment" are common ways of trying to coerce people. In contrast, agape works by the presentation of light and truth, the "force" being that of the truth itself, when it finds an answering chord in the soul.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110132
03/18/09 03:33 PM
03/18/09 03:33 PM
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I think perhaps you misunderstood MM here. He is saying that the people who God influences use physical force. Yes, I took him to mean that, but was that what you meant when you said, "The influence which God uses is primarily the influence of the Holy Spirit"? Actually she doesn't say "physical force," but "force," which is a much more forceful statement, so to speak. You are correct. MM seems to readily insert and imply physical is worse and it does seem to have the connotation. But really, being coerced into doing something is much worse than being made to at gunpoint. Such as, do this (what I want you to) or you'll make the angels cry.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: kland]
#110214
03/19/09 04:06 PM
03/19/09 04:06 PM
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Are you saying that when Ellen White says physical force is contrary to the principles of His government she really means to qualify it by only to force people to love and obey Him? Which quotes are you referring to?
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110215
03/19/09 04:08 PM
03/19/09 04:08 PM
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Tom, please don't overlook addressing my post above (110011).
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110225
03/19/09 05:35 PM
03/19/09 05:35 PM
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T:I think perhaps you misunderstood MM here. He is saying that the people who God influences use physical force. K:
Yes, I took him to mean that, but was that what you meant when you said, "The influence which God uses is primarily the influence of the Holy Spirit"? I just meant that the Holy Spirit influences people.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110235
03/19/09 09:01 PM
03/19/09 09:01 PM
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T:I think perhaps you misunderstood MM here. He is saying that the people who God influences use physical force. K:
Yes, I took him to mean that, but was that what you meant when you said, "The influence which God uses is primarily the influence of the Holy Spirit"? I just meant that the Holy Spirit influences people. That's what I thought. Therefore, would it be appropriate to question him about inserting "use physical force"? Was that out of line?
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: kland]
#110240
03/19/09 09:34 PM
03/19/09 09:34 PM
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No, I just thought there may have been a misunderstanding.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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