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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110686
03/29/09 04:24 AM
03/29/09 04:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom,
1. Do you think God knew Satan would influence the Romans to kill the Jews when He withdrew His protection? He knew something bad would happen. 2. Did Satan do anything that exceeded God's established limits? This seems rhetorical. How would this be possible? I don't understand why you ask questions like this. You've asked this particular one several times, and I've responded the same way each time. Please explain to me how what you're asking would be possible. 3. Does God expect us to assume that whatever happens is within His established limits? As you've phrased the question, I'm hesitant to answer the question yes or no, because it may give a wrong impression. So I'll answer it by saying that God does not permit Satan to do anything he wishes, as if he did so, the human race would be destroyed. As is pointed out in Job, God puts a hedge around people. Sometimes Satan is permitted to do things, but these things are never God's will, although God can work his purpose in spite of evil, even making use of the evil to do so. 4. If so, why does God allow some horrible things to happen but not others? I think this question will have to wait until the judgment. Also, you wrote - "Regarding what God does to ensure Satan does not exceed His limits, Scripture tells us God sets a hedge around those He's protecting." What does this mean to you? I assume you don't think the "hedge" is literal. How do you visualize it playing out in reality? I think the meaning is pretty clear in Job. God protected Job from Satan. When God withdrew His protection (to the extent He did), we see what happened.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110737
03/29/09 04:14 PM
03/29/09 04:14 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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T:You seem to have the idea that God purposes evil things. M:What do you consider to be evil? Here's what the Bible says about God and evil: Exodus
32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deuteronomy
29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Joshua
23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Judges
2:15 Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.
Isaiah
14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isaiah
45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Ezekiel
6:10 And they shall know that I [am] the LORD, [and that] I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.
Jeremiah
26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Micah
2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time [is] evil. T: Evil are things contrary to the principles of His government, contrary to His character, contrary to what Jesus Christ revealed about God, contrary to His will. What do you think the passages you quoted mean? I agree with you that "evil" is something that goes contrary to the will of God. Murder, rape, adultery, lying, stealing, etc. For example, commanding Moses to kill sinners was not "evil". Commanding holy angels to kill the first born in Egypt was not "evil". Employing fire to kill Nadab and Abihu was not "evil". Killing Ananias and Sapphira was not "evil". The passages posted above represent the plans and purposes of God to kill sinners. In some cases He repented of His plans and purposes to kill sinners. But in most cases God followed through with His plans and purposes to do "evil".
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110741
03/29/09 04:41 PM
03/29/09 04:41 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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1. Do you think God knew Satan would influence the Romans to kill the Jews when He withdrew His protection?
T: He knew something bad would happen. Do you think God knew the precise details? After all, it was God who established the limits beyond which He would not allow Satan to go. Do you think God thought Satan might hold back and stay far away from the maximum He was willing to allow? Or, do you think it is safe to assume God knew Satan would use every inch of rope God was willing to pay out and that He would have work hard to prevent Satan from exceeding His limits? 2. Did Satan do anything that exceeded God's established limits?
T: This seems rhetorical. How would this be possible? I don't understand why you ask questions like this. You've asked this particular one several times, and I've responded the same way each time. Please explain to me how what you're asking would be possible. I assume your answer is - No! If so, why do you think God would establish limits that allow Satan to do such arbitrary and horrible things to sinners? And, why do you think God is capable of allowing such things? 3. Does God expect us to assume that whatever happens is within His established limits?
T: As you've phrased the question, I'm hesitant to answer the question yes or no, because it may give a wrong impression. So I'll answer it by saying that God does not permit Satan to do anything he wishes, as if he did so, the human race would be destroyed. As is pointed out in Job, God puts a hedge around people. Sometimes Satan is permitted to do things, but these things are never God's will, although God can work his purpose in spite of evil, even making use of the evil to do so. Is it safe to assume, then, that whatever happens is within His established limits, that nothing happens that He doesn't allow? Or, do things happen sometimes that exceed His established limits? 4. If so, why does God allow some horrible things to happen but not others?
T: I think this question will have to wait until the judgment. I'll rephrase the question. In the case of the Jews and the Romans in 70 AD, why did God allow things to play out the way they did? Why didn't He establish limits that prohibited such cruelty and carnage? Why did He think such things were within the limits He was willing to permit? M: Also, you wrote - "Regarding what God does to ensure Satan does not exceed His limits, Scripture tells us God sets a hedge around those He's protecting." What does this mean to you? I assume you don't think the "hedge" is literal. How do you visualize it playing out in reality?
T: I think the meaning is pretty clear in Job. God protected Job from Satan. When God withdrew His protection (to the extent He did), we see what happened. Yes, we see what happened, but what we don't see is how God prevented Satan from exceeding His established limits. Nor do we see why God was willing to allow Satan to wreak such horrific atrocities against Job - he killed his children and flocks, destroyed his crops, and inflicted him with excruciatingly painful boils and sores. Why do you think God is capable of allowing such cruelty and carnage? Why do you think God is willing to allow such things to happen?
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110746
03/29/09 04:53 PM
03/29/09 04:53 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding #110737, you're reasoning is circular. You think what you believe is right, and conclude that it is on the basis of that assumption.
Also it sounds like you think it was God's will that people be killed. It also appears that you don't think killing people is evil (i.e. necessarily evil; I'm sure you think in some circumstances it is).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110917
03/31/09 01:02 AM
03/31/09 01:02 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, do you think it was evil of God to command Moses to stone sinners to death? Also, do you think the "evil" God purposed to do or did do in the following passages was justifiable and commendable? Exodus
32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deuteronomy
29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Joshua
23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Judges
2:15 Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed.
Isaiah
14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Isaiah
45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Ezekiel
6:10 And they shall know that I [am] the LORD, [and that] I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.
Jeremiah
26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Micah
2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time [is] evil.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110918
03/31/09 01:02 AM
03/31/09 01:02 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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1. Do you think God knew Satan would influence the Romans to kill the Jews when He withdrew His protection?
T: He knew something bad would happen. Do you think God knew the precise details? After all, it was God who established the limits beyond which He would not allow Satan to go. Do you think God thought Satan might hold back and stay far away from the maximum He was willing to allow? Or, do you think it is safe to assume God knew Satan would use every inch of rope God was willing to pay out and that He would have work hard to prevent Satan from exceeding His limits? 2. Did Satan do anything that exceeded God's established limits?
T: This seems rhetorical. How would this be possible? I don't understand why you ask questions like this. You've asked this particular one several times, and I've responded the same way each time. Please explain to me how what you're asking would be possible. I assume your answer is - No! If so, why do you think God would establish limits that allow Satan to do such arbitrary and horrible things to sinners? And, why do you think God is capable of allowing such things? 3. Does God expect us to assume that whatever happens is within His established limits?
T: As you've phrased the question, I'm hesitant to answer the question yes or no, because it may give a wrong impression. So I'll answer it by saying that God does not permit Satan to do anything he wishes, as if he did so, the human race would be destroyed. As is pointed out in Job, God puts a hedge around people. Sometimes Satan is permitted to do things, but these things are never God's will, although God can work his purpose in spite of evil, even making use of the evil to do so. Is it safe to assume, then, that whatever happens is within His established limits, that nothing happens that He doesn't allow? Or, do things happen sometimes that exceed His established limits? 4. If so, why does God allow some horrible things to happen but not others?
T: I think this question will have to wait until the judgment. I'll rephrase the question. In the case of the Jews and the Romans in 70 AD, why did God allow things to play out the way they did? Why didn't He establish limits that prohibited such cruelty and carnage? Why did He think such things were within the limits He was willing to permit? M: Also, you wrote - "Regarding what God does to ensure Satan does not exceed His limits, Scripture tells us God sets a hedge around those He's protecting." What does this mean to you? I assume you don't think the "hedge" is literal. How do you visualize it playing out in reality?
T: I think the meaning is pretty clear in Job. God protected Job from Satan. When God withdrew His protection (to the extent He did), we see what happened. Yes, we see what happened, but what we don't see is how God prevented Satan from exceeding His established limits. Nor do we see why God was willing to allow Satan to wreak such horrific atrocities against Job - he killed his children and flocks, destroyed his crops, and inflicted him with excruciatingly painful boils and sores. Why do you think God is capable of allowing such cruelty and carnage? Why do you think God is willing to allow such things to happen?
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#110937
03/31/09 02:41 AM
03/31/09 02:41 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Do you think God knew the precise details? God knew everything that could happen. After all, it was God who established the limits beyond which He would not allow Satan to go. Do you think God thought Satan might hold back and stay far away from the maximum He was willing to allow? Or, do you think it is safe to assume God knew Satan would use every inch of rope God was willing to pay out and that He would have work hard to prevent Satan from exceeding His limits? We know that Satan does different things in different circumstances. God knew all the possible things Satan might do. 2. Did Satan do anything that exceeded God's established limits?
T: This seems rhetorical. How would this be possible? I don't understand why you ask questions like this. You've asked this particular one several times, and I've responded the same way each time. Please explain to me how what you're asking would be possible.
I assume your answer is - No! If so, why do you think God would establish limits that allow Satan to do such arbitrary and horrible things to sinners? And, why do you think God is capable of allowing such things? You seem to always want to put the blame on God. I disagree with this outlook. God is not responsible for the evil that men or angelic beings do, and He does everything He can to prevent evil. But God respects free will. Free will means that evil beings to evil things. Is it safe to assume, then, that whatever happens is within His established limits, that nothing happens that He doesn't allow? Or, do things happen sometimes that exceed His established limits? Again! I just asked you in the post you are responding to how this would be possible. Please answer my question. [quoteI'll rephrase the question. In the case of the Jews and the Romans in 70 AD, why did God allow things to play out the way they did? Why didn't He establish limits that prohibited such cruelty and carnage? Why did He think such things were within the limits He was willing to permit?[/quote] For the reasons pointed out in GC 35, 36, which I've quoted many times. Yes, we see what happened, but what we don't see is how God prevented Satan from exceeding His established limits. Yes, we don't see that. Nor do we see why God was willing to allow Satan to wreak such horrific atrocities against Job - he killed his children and flocks, destroyed his crops, and inflicted him with excruciatingly painful boils and sores. This we do have light on. Why do you think God is capable of allowing such cruelty and carnage? Why do you think God is willing to allow such things to happen? How would you have God prevent evil, MM? You seem to think God was responsible for what happened. Is this correct?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110938
03/31/09 02:45 AM
03/31/09 02:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, do you think it was evil of God to command Moses to stone sinners to death? I think your question is based on false premises. Also, do you think the "evil" God purposed to do or did do in the following passages was justifiable and commendable? What?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: Tom]
#110962
03/31/09 02:05 PM
03/31/09 02:05 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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I believe the reasoning is as follows. God is not evil.
God can do no wrong.
Therefore, anything God does, is "just", and good.
If I see (or think) of God doing something, no matter how cruel or atrocious, it must be good because God is doing it. We do not need to consider if I am seeing or understanding it correctly because it doesn't really matter since everything God does is good. Seems like I've said this before, but I believe that is how Hitler wanted his subjects to believe about him.
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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits?
[Re: kland]
#110964
03/31/09 02:40 PM
03/31/09 02:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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This isn't an actual quote, right? It's just making your hypothetical reasoning clear to see.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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