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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111956
04/19/09 01:05 AM
04/19/09 01:05 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
However, I don't know if being the "Son of God" over-ride his inherited tendencies toward sin? My hunch is no, because of Heb 2.


There are two natures involved, Elle. The way Sister White puts is it that Christ took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature. You're correct that our sinful nature had inherited tendencies to sin. His being the Son of God did not "override" these, because, if He did, the following would not be true:

Quote:
As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us.(DA 24)


If His being the Son of God "overrode" the tendencies to sin incumbent upon our sinful nature, then He have exercised in His own behalf a power that is not freely offered to us. Now Christ did defeat these tendencies, but He did so not by His own power, but by the power of His Father, a power which is freely offered to us.

Quote:
I agree with Rosangela and Arnold's definition of sin and it's victory is through the spirit/mental and not the physical.


Everyone agrees with this. It's a bit of a mystery why the bring this up.

Quote:
We have the promise of having Christ victory through His indwelling spirit.


Amen!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111957
04/19/09 01:10 AM
04/19/09 01:10 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
To me, tendencies toward sin are themselves sinful, and we are called to overcome such tendencies.


It's true we are called to overcome them, but simply having sinful flesh is not of itself a sin.

Quote:
This is why I do not believe Jesus could ever have had them.


That Christ was understood as having the tendencies to sin common to sinful flesh is how Ellen White's writings were understood by her contemporaries. For example:

Quote:
"Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome. Made ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ he lived a sinless life. Now by his divinity he lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by his humanity he reaches us."

This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness.(RH 10/2/1900; emphasis mine)


The first paragraph is Ellen White from "The Desire of Ages." The second is S. N. Haskell commenting on that as SDA's were fighting against the Holy Flesh ideas.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111958
04/19/09 01:20 AM
04/19/09 01:20 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Elle:If you wish to quote Heb 2:17, "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren," and then tell me that is why you believe Jesus had tendencies to sin, you might as well tell me He was a sinner. We are. If He was to be "made like unto His brethren," why not be made as a sinner? Only then could He truly understand what we experience, right?

GC:Wrong. This is a devil-inspired doubt, but I'm sure every Christian at one time or another thinks it. We all must surely feel at times that since Jesus had never sinned, He could not truly understand our trials at overcoming the sin addiction. But this is wrong. He created us. He knows our thoughts. He lived among us, surrounded by sin--yet He remained unswayed by it.


Actually she's right. Of course we have to be careful in how we phrase things to make clear we're not implying that Christ sinned, but Elle is right on point. John says that Christ "knew what was in a man." Christ was born "under the law." He took our sinful nature in order to share in our temptations and sorrows.

The best I've seen at explaining this is A. T. Jones. I quotes a bit from him a littler earlier. I'll see if I can find it.

Quote:
In Christ the battle has been fought on every point, and the victory has been made complete. He was made flesh itself--the same flesh and blood as those whom He came to redeem. He was made in all points like these; He was "in all points tempted like as we are." If in any "point" he had not been "like as we are," then, on that point he could not possibly have been tempted "like as we are."

He was "touched with the feeling of our infirmities," because He "was in all points tempted like as we are." When He was tempted, he felt the desires and the inclinations of the flesh, precisely as we feel them when we are tempted. For "every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts [his own desires and inclinations of the flesh] and enticed." James 1:14. All this Jesus could experience without sin, because to be tempted is not sin. It is only "when lust hath conceived," when the desire is cherished, when the inclination is sanctioned -- only then it is that "it bringeth forth sin." And Jesus never even in a thought cherished a desire or sanctioned an inclination of the flesh. Thus in such flesh as ours He was tempted in all points as we are and yet without a taint of sin.

And thus, by the divine power that he received through faith in God, He, in our flesh, utterly quenched every inclination of that flesh and effectually killed at its root every desire of the flesh and so "condemned sin in the flesh." And in so doing He brought complete victory and divine power to maintain it to every soul in the world. All this He did "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." (Lessons on Faith)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Green Cochoa] #111959
04/19/09 01:32 AM
04/19/09 01:32 AM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
E: Is there other Bible text that can shed light on this question?
G: How about Mrs. White?

Green I made clear many times that I want to base my belief on the Bible alone.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. ]Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that [u]imperfection of character[/u] is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2} [Christ's Object Lessons (1900)]
Moral perfection is based on a spiritual/mental born again continual dependancy experience. Ellen is saying that we shouldn't lower the standard in order to accomadate cultivated tendencies. She's did not say that cultivated tendencies are sins. She's talking about perfection of character which is manifested through the spirit of Christ which we depend on.

Originally Posted By: EGW
The refining influence of the grace of God changes the natural disposition of man. Heaven would not be desirable to the carnal-minded; their natural, unsanctified hearts would feel no attraction toward that pure and holy place, and if it were possible for them to enter, they would find there nothing congenial. The propensities that control the natural heart must be subdued by the grace of Christ before fallen man is fitted to enter heaven and enjoy the society of the pure, holy angels. When man dies to sin and is quickened to new life in Christ, divine love fills his heart; his understanding is sanctified; he drinks from an inexhaustible fountain of joy and knowledge, and the light of an eternal day shines upon his path, for with him continually is the Light of life. {AA 273.2} [The Acts of the Apostles (1911)]
I see no problem with this quote either and is an explanation of the born again man. His natural heart must "subdued" by the grace of Christ,
- then man is "quickened to new life in Christ" (this is the working of the mind of Christ in you.
- "divine love fills his heart" (this is not your carnal heart that springs out love, but "divine love" fills his heart which is Christ love in you),
- "his understanding is sanctified" (here our faculties are not changed, but they are sanctified by the presence of Christ in you)

Originally Posted By: Green
To me, it is clear that tendencies to sin are sin. Mrs. White is here calling our attention to the fact that tendencies to sin are imperfections of character, which are sin.
I don't see it at all. The tendencies to sin is part of the seed of the fallen Adam. Adam before committing sin, did not have the tendencies to sin, and yet he fell. How did he commit sin? By the spirit of rebellions. Not because of his flesh. It is through the spirit that we commit sin or not, not by the flesh. Jesus never rebelled against the father and was sinless even thought his body had the genetic inheritences of the Fallen Adam. God made it clear that our body will only be changed(tendencies to sin will be removed from our bodies) at the second coming.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #111960
04/19/09 01:39 AM
04/19/09 01:39 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom,

Did you miss my post #111950?

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111961
04/19/09 01:41 AM
04/19/09 01:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I have already replied that the only thing I can think of that Waggoner is referring to is man's sinful nature as sin. However, what I want you to do is to explain this in relation to the baby question.


Why? I wasn't presenting this quote in reference to the baby question. When Ellen White was asked such questions, she tread on egg shells. She was very guarded in what she said. I don't wish to go beyond her comments, which, if memory serves, is in 3SM.

There's a quote by EGW which talks about how people will go into areas of speculation in order to avoid the straight lines of truth. I've got this way wrong in the words, but not so wrong in the general idea. We have very little revelation about babies. We have very clear revelation that Christ took our sinful nature. We know what the position of Ellen White's contemporaries was (hers too, unless we go through twisted contortions of logic).

For example, W. W. Prescott preached a postlapsarian sermon on the theme that Christ came in sinful flesh. Not "likeless of sinful flesh" as flesh like ours, but actually different, but "flesh of sin" exactly like ours. She endorsed this sermon as "truth separated from error." This should be enough to resolve the question. Imagine if Donnell had preach a sermon with the Original Sin ideas he had, like this:

Quote:
Where did Adam stand before his fall?. . . He was holy. Now, in order to pass over the same ground that Adam passed over, Christ would most assuredly have to begin just where Adam began! . . . . Now, we know that his divinity was holy, and if his humanity was holy, then we do know that that thing which was born of the virgin Mary was in every sense a holy thing, and did not possess the tendency to sin


and Ellen White had endorsed this sermon. It would then be clear that Ellen White was a prelapsarian. But she didn't endorse these ideas. She endorsed the ideas of those who combated these ideas.

Quote:
As to dispeling some of the false notions as to what the postlapsarian position is, I think you must dispel these false notions from the mind of Kirkpatrick et al, for this is the position held by all present postlapsarians I know.


What you are presenting as postlapsarian positions are not the positions that Jones, Waggoner, Haskell, Fifield and others held, as I've been demonstrating by their quotes. You've not quoted anything.

I know many postlapsarians who believe the ideas of Jones, Prescott, and Waggoner that I've been sharing. I've mentioned several of them here, such as Wieland, Short, Finneman, Sequeira and Gibson.

Here are a couple of things I'm sure all postlapsarians would agree with:

1.Christ took our sinful nature upon His sinless nature.
2.Haskell was right "This is fallen humanity, with its hereditary inclinations" and Donnell was wrong "did not possess the tendency to sin."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #111962
04/19/09 01:46 AM
04/19/09 01:46 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Quote:
E: Because of this text and others, I switch to believe that Jesus had the body with the inheritence of the tendencies toward sin, however, from day 1(don't know if it's from the conception like John the Baptist, the womb was filled with the Holy Spirit or as you suggested before birth), Jesus always abideth 100% to the Father's Spirit, and therefore did not sin.
R: But Elle, John the Baptist was a sinner, like the rest of the human race, while Jesus was without sin. If both were filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, what made the difference between John the Baptist and Jesus, especially while they were still young children?
John the Baptist was not "the son of God" and fell short of the glory of God. However, Jesus said, that there weren't a greather man than John the baptist.

Quote:
E: I believe that Jesus did not possess any of the Godly powers(omni-potent, immortality, omniscience, or omnipresence)
R: You seem to have missed it, but I asked you in the other thread how you explain the first temptation if Jesus couldn't change stones into bread.

Scripture said the temptation was to "command" which shows that Satan knew that Christ still had authority because He was the "son of God". Just as Christ said about us, A"nd the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you." Luk 17:6 We have the same authority as Christ representative, but do you believe?


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #111969
04/19/09 07:32 AM
04/19/09 07:32 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
E: Is there other Bible text that can shed light on this question?
G: How about Mrs. White?

Green I made clear many times that I want to base my belief on the Bible alone.

View Ellen White as you wish. What she says on this matter, as a prophet of God, I feel obliged to accept. However, in the following quote, she does cite several passages of scripture. Perhaps you wish to study them carefully and see how they compare to her words.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; Heb. 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}


Jesus was the second Adam. This is Biblical. Adam was created perfect. So was Jesus. Hence the comparison.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {5BC 1128.6}


Ellen White speaks very boldly on this topic. "Never" is a strong word. As touching this topic, Ellen White would have us know we are treading on holy ground. She warns us to be very careful of how we present the nature of Christ.

Once again, based on these passages, which I accept as God's Word to us, I view the fleshly nature of Christ as including only that level of weakness in health and constitution to which our sin-filled millennia of inheritance had brought, to the exclusion of any moral weakness whatsoever. Christ had no tendencies to sin, only weakened defenses against it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Green Cochoa] #111970
04/19/09 11:08 AM
04/19/09 11:08 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; Heb. 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

Green: Jesus was the second Adam. This is Biblical. Adam was created perfect. So was Jesus. Hence the comparison.
It all depends on your definition of "perfect" or "sin". According to scripture he put on human nature and it was an obligation for Him to do so for him to take our place. Heb 2:17, Rom 8:3, Phil 2:7. I agree with EGW that Christ was the second Adam and perfect in Character for he never in his mind took a bent toward sin eventhough he inherited a body the same as ours with a bent towards sin. That's what makes him perfect and the second Adam, because 100% of all his existence on earth, he abided in the Father. Never once, did he let the Father go. So through his dependency to the will of his Father, he became victorious.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." ... {5BC 1128.6}
Again look where EGW puts the emphasis, and I agree with her, Jesus never in any way yielded to corruption in his mind. There's some that says that having the thoughts of sin in their mind, but if they didn't consent to it, they didn't sin. I don't agree with that. I totally believe that Jesus never had a thought of sin in his mind.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #111971
04/19/09 11:46 AM
04/19/09 11:46 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Elle,

You and I will perhaps continue to differ on this, for I do take the view that a "thought of sin," so long as it is not cherished but is at once banished from the mind, amounts only to a temptation, and is not a sinful choice. Such is within the Tempter's capability, to plant evil thoughts in our minds.

Every person has two voices to which he or she may listen: the voice of conscience, and the voice of the tempter. Jesus surely must have had a "thought of sin" in His mind when it was presented by the devil, or else we would say He had an unfair advantage over us in that He did not actually hear Satan's suggestions. However, He met these thoughts with the Word of God, and gave a prompt rebuff to them.

And regarding Mrs. White's emphasis, she is emphasizing all of the points in that sentence, not one above another. Regardless of the emphasis, each point stands true in its own right. She says very plainly that Christ did not have any "inclination" to sin. This word has the same meaning as "propensity" or "tendency."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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