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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112516
05/01/09 09:18 PM
05/01/09 09:18 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I don't think I'm being judgmental on this point. Remember, I was there; you weren't.


You were being judgmental by not qualifying your statement, which you acknowledged above (i.e., that you should have qualified your statement).

I don't care about your LK experience. Let me rephrase that. I'm sorry for any negative experiences you suffered, but LK is only one perspective of things. You can't validly lump your negative experience with whatever group with which you were trying to fellowship with all postlapsarians. I know *many* gracious postlapsarians, just wonderful people. (I know many gracious prelapsarians too).

I've asked you several times if you agree with the "old guys" (i.e. Fifield, Waggoner, Jones, Haskell). I don't believe you've answered. I'm curious to know.

If you would quote things, it would sure be easier to discuss things with you. If you can't do a direct quote, make one up. Like, "I recall something like this being said:" and quote it. That way I have some context for your comments, and I could well agree with your points. But when you make these broad generalizing statements about postlapsarians, that's most unfortunate. These are statements I know to be false by my own experience, just as much as you know your statements to be true by yours. That's because I run around a different group of people than you.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112517
05/01/09 09:21 PM
05/01/09 09:21 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Think I'm going to disagree with you here (or with Arnold's experience)? Um, no!


I don't understand your comment here.

Did you read Fifield's sermon which I posted earlier? If not, I can repost it. I rarely hear people make the points Fifield made. Jones, Waggoner and Prescott made similar points. I'm not saying I haven't heard people make these points, just that I hear it way to rarely, and it's a message people need to hear. Not simply that Jesus is our example, and we can overcome (an important message), but Jesus knows our experiences and sympathizes with us.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112518
05/01/09 09:24 PM
05/01/09 09:24 PM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
I don't understand your comment here.

I asked the question rhetorically. IOW, no waayyy was I going to disagree with either of you.

Quote:
Did you read Fifield's sermon which I posted earlier? If not, I can repost it. I rarely hear people make the points Fifield made. Jones, Waggoner and Prescott made similar points. I'm not saying I haven't heard people make these points, just that I hear it way to rarely, and it's a message people need to hear. Not simply that Jesus is our example, and we can overcome (an important message), but Jesus knows our experiences and sympathizes with us.

Yes, of course, I did. These are the sort of thematic sermons I wish our church could hear today! No doubt.

William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #112521
05/01/09 09:44 PM
05/01/09 09:44 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I asked the question rhetorically. IOW, no waayyy was I going to disagree with either of you.


Ok. Good.

Quote:
Yes, of course, I did. These are the sort of thematic sermons I wish our church could hear today! No doubt.


Yes, me too. In the church I went to last week the pastor gave a real nice sermon on the Prodigal Son. He said usually such sermons focus on the prodigal, but he wanted to focus on God's character. Very nice. God's character is what it's all about (see my signature).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112526
05/02/09 01:15 AM
05/02/09 01:15 AM
W
William  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 158
London, England
Quote:
God's character is what it's all about (see my signature).

See mine. . . bloody marvelous. And with that, an exquisite Sabbath for all.

Willy, er, William


:: Harmony not hate leads your opponent's mind to wisdom; beating him there always with tender heart. —Anonymous
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #112527
05/02/09 01:34 AM
05/02/09 01:34 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: asygo
We take turns. In a few weeks, it will be my turn to disappear while I move. Actually, I should disappear now. Got work to do.

Hi Arnold, Before you disappear, could you comment what you thought of Pastor Liversidge "Victory in Christ" message?

So far so good. In fact, very good.

He teaches victory in experience, not just in theory. He also teaches victory in heart and mind, not just in action.

And it is all founded on accepting what Jesus did for us, not what we do for Jesus. From what I've heard so far, he has the root and the fruit in the correct order. His session on Romans 6 is very good.

I'll have to read the transcript one of these days. If only I could read a book while driving.

I went through his book, and it's just a transcript of his CDs. Nothing more really. I was quite moved by the message and it did put everything in perspective for me. I would like to listen to your sermons too, since my hunch is that you have the same focuss as Pastor Liversidge. That's what I want to focuss myself and live by. As soon as I can fix my computer's speakers or figure out how to burn CDs, I'll would love to have more real food. Do you by any chance, have transcript of your sermons?


Blessings
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112528
05/02/09 02:31 AM
05/02/09 02:31 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
I did a search of "sinful nature" as used by Ellen White and it seems to me she used it to refer to our weakened nature. If anyone can see how she used it differently please point it out.


Here's one:

Quote:
He takes away the destructive tendencies of the sinful nature and brings the human agency into His service. (18MR 208)


Originally Posted By: Tom
Here's another:

Quote:
We are not left to ourselves to fight the battle against self and our sinful natures in our own finite strength. (GW 418)


Originally Posted By: Tom
Here she uses it synonymously with "sinful flesh"

Quote:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh"--it could not justify man, because in his sinful nature he could not keep the law --"God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 5:1; 3:31; 8:3, 4). (GAG 140)


so how are you reading those statements?

i found it interesting that the "sinful flesh" is used only once which makes it difficult to form a definition.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: William] #112529
05/02/09 02:36 AM
05/02/09 02:36 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: William

Yes, I agree. That short snippet leaves too much room for misinterpretation. Keep in mind, I've searched online for other comprehensive descriptions of NT but cannot seem to find any, and those I did find either don't extensively deliberate on details or arbitrarily demonize the opposition. Do you have any qualified sources in mind?

William

glad you think so.

it seems much better to me if someone disagrees with anothers understanding that they explain why.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112530
05/02/09 02:41 AM
05/02/09 02:41 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Last one (on "sinful nature" not meaning simply "weakened nature")

Quote:
When [God] gave Jesus to our world, He included all heaven in that one gift. He did not leave us to retain our defects and deformities of character, or to serve Him as best we could in the corruption of our sinful nature.(To Be Like Jesus 327)


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #112531
05/02/09 02:45 AM
05/02/09 02:45 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
That attitude is one reason why I think postlaps are misinformed at best or malicious at worst.

This seems like a splendid example of the pot calling the kettle black. You say "postlaps." Not "some postlaps," but simply "postlaps." ... So because you may know some postlap or postlaps who is or are misinformed or malicious, you feel it's fine for you to label all of them as "misinformed" or "malicious."

You are right. I should have said "some postlaps." I have had the pleasure of meeting a few gracious postlaps. For example, after an hour of talking with Dennis Priebe about soteriology one afternoon, he said he saw nothing wrong with what I said.

So I'll limit my "misinformed or malicious" label to whoever wrote that, and to whoever believes it.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
I am, at least by Kirkpatrick's definition, a New Theologian. Yet, in terms of overcoming sin, I have yet to find anyone, Old Theologians included, who has a stronger stance against sin.

Then it appears your not a New Theologian by said definition.

You must not know LK's definition. I think you can find it on GreatControversy.org. The fact that I believe Jesus had a human nature with both pre and post-Fall qualities makes me a New Theologian in his sight.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
While some call for complete overcoming of sin in the last generation, I call for complete obedience in THIS generation.

It is the unkind generalization of New Theologians displayed in your quote that led your GYC buddies to label me an antinomian. What a joke! (The ignorance is the joke. Being judgmental is never a joke.)

If you find fault with being judgmental, should you be such yourself?

I don't think I'm being judgmental on this point. Remember, I was there; you weren't. You weren't the one accused of being a spy, of joining the discussion for the express purpose of causing trouble, of being antinomian simply because I believe that Christ's nature is different from mine, of being evil because I ask too many questions (which they haven't answered to this day). And to think I was initially excited because I thought I had found a haven of rest after the many years of battling antinomianism and ungodliness in my church. That was misplaced faith!

I think I'm qualified to make a call on this one. Now, if you have evidence to refute my experience, please present it. I'd like to have my faith restored. As it is, most postlaps I have come across have an inordinate fascination with finding fault with non-postlaps, whether justified or not.

Check this out. For the first couple of years at Mentone, I went back and forth with LK on this topic. We wrote many volumes trying to explain our respective positions. Eventually, he gave me some pulpit time. He scheduled me for a day when he was away, and didn't even have time to listen to the sermon audio. That tells me that he knew me well enough to know that I wasn't going to preach error, and didn't need to check up on me. He's one of the gracious ones.

In contrast, is one of his members. On a day when I was scheduled to preach, she went to LK to tell him that I should not be allowed to speak in church anymore because she heard that I did not hold the same belief on the nature of Christ. This is a lady who had listened to several of my sermons already, and loved every one of them, even wanted to make tapes to send out to her friends. To his credit, LK told her that he had discussed the issue with me at length, and he doesn't think there's going to be any problem. I eventually had a one-on-one with this lady for another reason, and I asked what she thought I believed about the nature of Christ. She did not know; she couldn't even offer a guess. But you gotta watch out for them prelapsarians!

Another time, I was being considered by the board to be added as an elder. One of the board members approached the person who put my name up. Her concern was, "He doesn't believe like us." This was the same lady who gave me a paper by Priebe, and when I said I have some concerns with it, she didn't want to discuss it. (But Priebe himself sees no problem with my position.) Anyway, the lady who put my name up, a postlap herself, replied that her son discussed it at length with me and sees no problem, LK discussed it at length with me and sees no problem, she knows I am definitely against sin so she has no problem, and my kids are well-behaved, so maybe my belief is not so bad. I eventually became an elder, and I doubt that LK shed any tears over it.

So I've seen a range attitudes among those who are "like Jesus."


i understand completely your point and am not trying to minimize it but.....

i think we could agree that we can get stuck in whatever position-the daily, for example-and condemn the other side for bringing in "new theology" smile because they dont believe just like we do.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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