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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112893
05/09/09 02:47 PM
05/09/09 02:47 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Deleted post (problem with delete feature)

Last edited by Tom; 05/09/09 02:48 PM.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112897
05/09/09 03:19 PM
05/09/09 03:19 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Being tempted from within means temptations that do not arise from external sentient sources, such as Satan. So to ask if Christ could be tempted from within is asking if Christ could be tempted without the devil (or some other evil being) explicitly tempting Him.

For example, if I pass by an attractive woman who is dressed provocatively, I may need to turn away to keep my mind pure. Could Christ have been tempted like that?

Regarding Christ's being tempted in all points as we are, a point that's often forgotten, or not understood, is that Christ bore our sins, in addition to taking our sinful nature. It was this combination that allowed Him to be tempted in all points as we are.

The SOP writes, "The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand."(DA 116) What are the enticements we find so difficult to withstand? These are the same things Christ was tempted to do. These temptations were difficult for Christ for the same reason they are difficult for us -- hereditary and cultivated tendencies to sin. In the case of Christ, of course, the cultivated tendencies were ours, not His. But, nevertheless, it was our sins which made His temptations difficult, just as our sins make our temptations difficult.

Quote:
Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man....In order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He humiliated himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that he might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him....The weight of the sins of the world was pressing his soul, and his countenance expressed unutterable sorrow, a depth of anguish that fallen man had never realized. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and unholy passion, which controlled the world, and had brought upon man inexpressible suffering.(Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness)


Let's look at some of the points, and come back to comment on them:

1.Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man.
2.In order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was.
3.He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He humiliated himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that he might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him.
4.The weight of the sins of the world was pressing his soul...He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and unholy passion...

Regarding Point 1, "Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man," this is both sin in its tendency and in its commission. Christ bore both in order to help man. His temptations in the wilderness involved both aspects.

Regarding Point 2, "In order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was." This describes the issue so clearly, it's difficult to understand how it isn't grasped. Where are we? We're in the pit of sin. Where do we need to be elevated from? Our pit. Where did Christ come to, in order to elevate us? He came to our pit. This is abundantly clear. He didn't hold Himself off from us, at arms length, but He came down to our level, where we are, in order to elevate us.

Now it wasn't necessary for Christ to commit sin in order to do this. It was necessary for Christ to take our sinful nature and to bear our sins.

Point 3 bears this out:

"He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He humiliated himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that he might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him."

Note:"to the lowest depths of human woe." "Lowest" means "the lowest point; a point at which it is not possible to go lower." This is the point that Christ went to. Why? In order to reach me, because that's where I am.

Note again: "bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him." This is speaking of "degradation." In another passage the SOP writes:

Quote:
Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame.(4SDABC 1147)


Christ took our nature, "degraded and defiled by sin," and, in addition to this, He bore our sin. Why did He do so? In order to "bring (man) up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him."

Regarding point 4, "The weight of the sins of the world was pressing his soul...He realized the strength of indulged appetite and unholy passion," I think what people often don't realize is that Christ felt the strength of our temptation, that He was actually tempted like we are.

Tom, you have said a lot, but it remains cloudy in my mind as to what you are actually trying to assert.

From my point of view, the following all hold true:

1) Christ would not have been tempted from within, according to your definition of such.
2) Christ did not "become sin" for us until He drank of that cup on the cross. This was not a "from birth" experience. The sins He bore were laid upon the Spotless Lamb, and caused His death, for they separated Him from the presence of the Father.
3) Christ was humiliated in taking our flesh, humbled to the dust, so to speak, but this in no way implies He bore sin-filled flesh. The flesh may be weak, but it does not contain sin.
4) Sin-degraded or sin-defiled flesh does not make the flesh itself sinful. I might put bullet holes in a piece of cardboard, but I would still not find bullets in it. Sin may have weakened the flesh, but the flesh itself is not sinful in the sense of harboring sin. Sin is a choice. Flesh does not choose.

If our flesh contains sin, and then we are asked to put away sin, would this not mean that we must cut away our flesh and/or commit suicide to be free? Let us not enter that slippery slope.

I do not believe Jesus would have had any impure desires towards a beautiful woman walking past. Why should He? He created that beauty. He knew it well. It would be no surprise to Him. In fact, if anything, I can imagine Him having sorrowful thoughts at how blemished and blighted her countenance and figure had become due to the taint of sin. Only Satan could have provoked in Him a temptation to think unseemly thoughts. And I'm sure Satan did. But I also know that Jesus did not fail, not even by a thought.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Green Cochoa] #112906
05/09/09 06:20 PM
05/09/09 06:20 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
1) Christ would not have been tempted from within, according to your definition of such.


Then He wasn't tempted in all points as we are, because we are tempted from within. That is, we don't need Satan to tempt us to be tempted.

Quote:

2) Christ did not "become sin" for us until He drank of that cup on the cross. This was not a "from birth" experience. The sins He bore were laid upon the Spotless Lamb, and caused His death, for they separated Him from the presence of the Father.


It's clear He was bearing them before this:

Quote:
Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man....He who knew no sin became sin for us....The weight of the sins of the world was pressing his soul


This is speaking of the temptation in the wilderness, over three years before the cross.

Quote:
3) Christ was humiliated in taking our flesh, humbled to the dust, so to speak, but this in no way implies He bore sin-filled flesh. The flesh may be weak, but it does not contain sin.


Prescott calls it "flesh of sin." Ellen White endorsed Prescott's view.

There are actually two things going on. First of all, there is sin-damaged flesh, as we all have. Our flesh tempts us to sin, but, as you rightly point out, we do not have sin in our flesh until we choose to sin. Christ took flesh like ours, in this regard, a flesh able to tempt us, without the help of Satan.

The second thing is that Christ's flesh was full of sin -- ours!

Quote:
4) Sin-degraded or sin-defiled flesh does not make the flesh itself sinful. I might put bullet holes in a piece of cardboard, but I would still not find bullets in it. Sin may have weakened the flesh, but the flesh itself is not sinful in the sense of harboring sin. Sin is a choice. Flesh does not choose.


We're in agreement here, except that your first sentence could be written more clearly. Of course sinful flesh must be sinful, otherwise it wouldn't be called "sinful flesh." But the "sinful" in "sinful flesh" does not imply a participation in sin, but rather a condition, which is what you are saying, and I agree with your point.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112913
05/09/09 07:30 PM
05/09/09 07:30 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
The fact is, only a homosexual can be tempted like a homosexual, only a gambler can be tempted like a gambler, only an alcoholic can be tempted like an alcoholic, only a thief can be tempted like a thief, only a murderer can be tempted like a murderer, only a rapist can be tempted like a rapist, and only a pedophile can be tempted like a pedophile.

Then Christ wasn't tempted like any one of us!

Only a proud person can be tempted like a proud person, so Christ couldn't have been tempted as such a person.

Only a selfish person could be tempted like a selfish person, so Christ couldn't have been tempted as a such a person.

Only a presumptuous person could be tempted like a presumptuous person, so Christ couldn't have been tempted as such a person.

No matter what my sin is, Christ wasn't tempted like me. Not much consolation there.

What you propose, that Christ had to be tempted with our very same temptations, will never work. A man is tempted like a man, and a woman is tempted like a woman. There are gender-specific temptations, and specific differences in temptations that are common to both. Christ couldn’t be tempted like a woman, therefore there’s not much consolation for women, according to you. How can Christ understand a woman who is tempted to commit an abortion, for example?

The following passage explains how Christ shared in our temptations:

[Christ] undertook the cause of man, and with the same facilities that man may obtain, withstood the temptations of Satan as man must withstand them. This was the only way in which fallen man could become a partaker of the divine nature. In taking human nature, Christ was fitted to understand man's trials and sorrows and all the temptations wherewith he is beset. Angels who were unacquainted with sin could not sympathize with man in his peculiar trials. Christ condescended to take man's nature, and was tempted in all points like as we, that He might know how to succor all who should be tempted. {1SM 252.1}

... Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. God was manifest in the flesh. He humbled Himself. ... He stooped to poverty and to the deepest abasement among men. For our sake He became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. "The foxes have holes," He said, "and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head" (Matt. 8:20). {1SM 253.1}

Christ submitted to insult and mockery, contempt and ridicule. He heard His message, which was fraught with love and goodness and mercy, misstated and misapplied. He heard Himself called the prince of demons, because He testified to His divine Sonship. His birth was supernatural, but by His own nation, those who had blinded their eyes to spiritual things, it was regarded as a blot and a stain. There was not a drop of our bitter woe which He did not taste, not a part of our curse which He did not endure, that He might bring many sons and daughters to God. {1SM 253.2}

... Behold Him making the wants, the trials, the griefs and sufferings of sinful men His own. Can we not take home the lesson that God endured these sufferings and bruises of soul in consequence of sin? {1SM 253.3}

He understood our temptations through His temptations. This is clear. And He also bore the guilt of our sins as if He had committed them. Two different things.

P.S. Thank you for the correction. (Rapist, not raper.)

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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112916
05/09/09 07:42 PM
05/09/09 07:42 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
There are actually two things going on. First of all, there is sin-damaged flesh, as we all have. Our flesh tempts us to sin

Only if it refers to the lower, corrupt nature, for the body of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God.

The words, "flesh"... embrace the lower, corrupt nature: the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. {SpM 209.2}

Obs. Well, thinking better, the needs of the body can be used by Satan as a source of temptation.

Quote:
The second thing is that Christ's flesh was full of sin -- ours!

No, the guilt of our sins was in His mind; not His body.

Last edited by Rosangela; 05/09/09 08:00 PM. Reason: add comment
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112919
05/09/09 08:21 PM
05/09/09 08:21 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
off-topic and not meaning to ignore the points you are making...

Quote:
For example, if I pass by an attractive woman who is dressed provocatively, I may need to turn away to keep my mind pure. Could Christ have been tempted like that?


ok, here, isnt that the wrong goal? im trying to figure out how to state my thought so if you can hang in there with me.
when Jesus saw attractive women "provocatively dressed" wouldnt His concern have been for the woman? wouldnt He have seen the person and her need? im not saying that He wouldnt have been tempted for a second, but wouldnt His love and mission overrode that? shouldnt that be our goal?

joseph had to run in his situation, and times like that all we can do is run from it, but in other times isnt the goal to overcome, for victory, for love for our fellowman?

i hope my thought came through.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112920
05/09/09 08:37 PM
05/09/09 08:37 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Being tempted from within means temptations that do not arise from external sentient sources, such as Satan. So to ask if Christ could be tempted from within is asking if Christ could be tempted without the devil (or some other evil being) explicitly tempting Him.

... I think what people often don't realize is that Christ felt the strength of our temptation, that He was actually tempted like we are.


i dont have a problem with that. i just think that His mission and goal were stronger.

can you see my point?

now that garden of gethsamene was the real struggle for Him, it seems to me. but as i think of it, the constant harassment by the enemy, either directly or through his pawns. the constant twisting, deliberat misunderstanding of His intentions. i can understand that just a tad from what i have gone through at times on these forums by the "godly". tho some of the people dishing it out, in my case, are probably pretty good people who just didnt realize what they were doing.

for Him to have gone through all that and on a much more constant scale and to not have given into even a thought or feeling of irritation, etc, whereas i have reached a snapping point. but to have had still a constant love and wanting to reach the unreachable!!

what a goal!!

i think that is where the "144,000" are going to have to get to.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #112922
05/09/09 09:01 PM
05/09/09 09:01 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
[quote]Quote:
4) Sin-degraded or sin-defiled flesh does not make the flesh itself sinful. I might put bullet holes in a piece of cardboard, but I would still not find bullets in it. Sin may have weakened the flesh, but the flesh itself is not sinful in the sense of harboring sin. Sin is a choice. Flesh does not choose.


We're in agreement here, except that your first sentence could be written more clearly. Of course sinful flesh must be sinful, otherwise it wouldn't be called "sinful flesh." But the "sinful" in "sinful flesh" does not imply a participation in sin, but rather a condition, which is what you are saying, and I agree with your point.


and that is how i understand the nature He took. weakened. its hard to fight temptations when we are worn down from whatever. course i dont know any other condition than the one i was born with, but i do know being in better condition than i am now, with the limitations of my injured back which affects a lot. if that is in keeping with the thought.

but Christs goals/mission were His driving force.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #112923
05/09/09 09:40 PM
05/09/09 09:40 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Teresa
Christs goals/mission were His driving force.
Just to expand to what you might of wanted to say. If we are to believe that Jesus was our example, well to be realistic, I don't have love/goals/mission naturally in my heart, so if I depend to find these in my heart, then I'm lost.

I believe that Jesus driving force was to depend and submit to the Father. The Father love, goals and mission(Father's Spirit) dwelled in Jesus. That's how Jesus became victorious, and showed us the Father. Jesus said that without the Father, He can't do anything.

So I believe that it's the same for us. We need to depend and submit entirely on Jesus and realize that without Jesus, we can't do anything. By having Jesus dwelling in us, we then have the love, goals and missions of Christ and of the Father.


Blessings
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #112926
05/09/09 10:48 PM
05/09/09 10:48 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Teresa
Christs goals/mission were His driving force.
Just to expand to what you might of wanted to say. If we are to believe that Jesus was our example, well to be realistic, I don't have love/goals/mission naturally in my heart, so if I depend to find these in my heart, then I'm lost.

I believe that Jesus driving force was to depend and submit to the Father. The Father love, goals and mission(Father's Spirit) dwelled in Jesus. That's how Jesus became victorious, and showed us the Father. Jesus said that without the Father, He can't do anything.

So I believe that it's the same for us. We need to depend and submit entirely on Jesus and realize that without Jesus, we can't do anything. By having Jesus dwelling in us, we then have the love, goals and missions of Christ and of the Father.


let me tweek your point a bit.

no, we do not naturally have these in our heart. and Jesus, as our example, never relied on Himself. remember, Jesus was God and man.

Jesus spent hours in prayer communing with the Father, in nature, meditating on the word/hiding it in His heart. but all of this was as our example in how we could become as He was. that we might be to God and others as He was.

but the important point i am trying to make is how we are to become. we have to come to the point of absolute love towards God and our fellowman. the only way to have the Jesus dwelling in us and be dependent on God, is through the example Jesus gave us in paragraph 2 of my post.

are we saying the same thing in different words?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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