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Re: plagues [Re: Mountain Man] #116277
07/18/09 04:25 PM
07/18/09 04:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Teresaq, what do you make of the following insight:

“[1] In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and [2] by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low.”

Which is which in light of what you wrote about the furious multitude fulfilling Eze 9? That is, I assume you believe number 1 above refers to the fulfillment of Eze 9, but what about number 2? What is it a fulfillment of? I believe number 2 refers to holy angels pouring out the plagues.

Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #116279
07/18/09 05:22 PM
07/18/09 05:22 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
"...the rage of the wicked multitude was turned upon each other."

A: That's the destroying angel of Ezekiel.

M: I disagree.

A: I believe that supernatural entities will be involved. But I think tq was saying that the wicked multitude IS the destroying angel. We could ask her. Do you want to be the good cop or the bad cop? I'll bring the halogen lamp. wink Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or run and hide. But secretly I'm laughing. Did you see the quote I posted at the bottom of the previous page where Ellen White says the destroying angel in Egypt is the same destroying angel in Eze 9?
ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
i need to clarify here, i believe. it was this that had me rolling.
Quote:
I'm not sure whether to laugh or run and hide
it caught me completely off guard.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: asygo] #116280
07/18/09 05:41 PM
07/18/09 05:41 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: teresaq
Originally Posted By: asygo
Do you agree that a holy angel sent by God caused Herod great agony of mind and body?
forgive me for jumping in yet again....but i dont remember where we are told what kind of "stroke" the angel gave. it seems our imagination, based on our experiences and mindset is coming up with our own picture of exactly what that means.

I don't think we need to know what kind of "stroke" this was. But it's clear to me that it came from the angel, as commanded by God, and resulted in great agony and death for Herod.

Quote:
The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God. {AA 152.1}
based on this-116202-it is extremely important, as i see it.
Quote:
Was he acting in harmony or in contradiction to God's will when he smote Herod? Yes or No? The answer to that will help determine if it's OK to cause others excruciating pain if it's eternally beneficial.


i dont think you see that you have a picture in your mind, whether conscious or not, and are trying to get people to agree with that picture with your questions.

im extremely resistant to questioning/interrogating because it is an attemtp to manipulate one into coming to the same conclusion as the questioner.

i dont want someone elses understanding. i want to be taught of God.

does this question
Quote:
Was he acting in harmony or in contradiction to God's will when he smote Herod? Yes or No?

naturally lead to
Quote:
The answer to that will help determine if it's OK to cause others excruciating pain if it's eternally beneficial.
if it does in your mind, ok. you are entitled to your understanding but dont try to make it someone elses understanding.

we dont know what kind of "stroke" it was. we dont know if the angel gave herod a disease or if he stopped preventing a particular disease from taking over.

anticipating that it doesnt seem to make much difference to you, it does to me.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: Mountain Man] #116281
07/18/09 05:47 PM
07/18/09 05:47 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Teresaq, I believe the "His messengers" in post #116227 (above) refers to holy angels. I do not believe they symbolize the wicked turning their weapons on the unfaithful shepherds of the flock during the outpouring of the seven last plagues. Again, not saying anything about what you believe.
in other words you see the two paragraphs referring to two different "killings"?

one paragraph is the lost slaughtering each other and the second paragraph is the angels slaughtering the lost?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: Mountain Man] #116282
07/18/09 05:55 PM
07/18/09 05:55 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Teresaq, what do you make of the following insight:

“[1] In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and [2] by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low.”

Which is which in light of what you wrote about the furious multitude fulfilling Eze 9? That is, I assume you believe number 1 above refers to the fulfillment of Eze 9, but what about number 2? What is it a fulfillment of? I believe number 2 refers to holy angels pouring out the plagues.
did you know that the time of trouble, Gods people delivered, and the desolation of the earth are parallel, each chapter covering different aspects of the same time period, as well as sequential?

just like the book of revelation.

you can put them in parallel columns and get a fairly comprehensive picture of what will happen, especially when every other text that touches on any point is added.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #116329
07/19/09 03:40 PM
07/19/09 03:40 PM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Arnold(speaking to kland):Where we seem to disagree is that it looks like you believe variable God and variable Hitler have the same methods.

This is backwards. At a minimum, you've been implying that both have the same methods by saying that what's OK for God to do is not OK for human beings to do (whether Hitler, or not). You've NOT said that the methods being used are different, but that God is justified by using these methods, whereas human beings are not.

By saying that it's not OK for human beings to do the same thing God is doing, you are stating in the clearest way possible that you believe that both are using the same methods. What kland has been arguing is that God does NOT use the methods that Hitler used.

His whole point has been that the methods that it is being suggested that God used are the same methods Hitler used. He's been arguing against this idea the whole time.

Are you speaking of "methods" in terms of inheritance or polymorphism?

It seems you are saying that the methods in variable God have the same routines as the methods in variable Hitler, but they call different methods. Am I hearing you right?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #116331
07/19/09 03:42 PM
07/19/09 03:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
we dont know what kind of "stroke" it was. we dont know if the angel gave herod a disease or if he stopped preventing a particular disease from taking over.

Did the angel cause Peter to have freedom, or simply stop the bondage? Either way, the angel did it.

Same with Herod.

Last edited by asygo; 07/19/09 03:43 PM. Reason: typo

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #116337
07/19/09 04:10 PM
07/19/09 04:10 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
T:It appears to me from your question:

A:Was the angel who rescued Peter the same angel who caused "great agony of mind and body" to Herod? The answer is clearly Yes.

Was he acting in harmony or in contradiction to God's will when he smote Herod? Yes or No? The answer to that will help determine if it's OK to cause others excruciating pain if it's eternally beneficial.

T:that you are agreeing with me in stating my opinion that you believe that angels do the same thing you believe God does, which is to cause pain if its eternally beneficial.

So this principle is evidently NOT limited only to God. Does it apply to human beings?

A:As a cousin of mine says, "You're jumping before you leap." Let's settle the clear matters first before we get into muddier waters.

Do you agree that a holy angel sent by God caused Herod great agony of mind and body?

If we can't settle that, we can't proceed, for the issue would become one of epistemology.

I've already explained what I believe about this incident in this thread (post #114997).

Here's that post:
Originally Posted By: Tom
Regarding the example you gave, I think anyone who shares the paradigm I laid out a few posts ago, would see that what caused Herod's death was God's ceasing to continue in some way something He was doing which was preventing Herod from being destroyed. We don't often think in terms that God has to do anything to keep us healthy. We have the ideas that our bodies are self-working, that God's not really involved. But God is involved in the workings of nature, including our bodies, in ways we cannot even fathom. If He should withdraw His actions, then instant death would take place, such as what we see with Ananias and Sapphira, or Herod.

Herod's painful death came not as a result of God's sadistically hurting and killing him, but as a result of his own rejection of God.

So let's say my son was being disobedient. If I starve him for 2 days, that would be sadistically hurting him. But if I just cease from feeding him for 2 days, that's perfectly fine. Is that what you're saying?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: plagues [Re: asygo] #116340
07/19/09 04:36 PM
07/19/09 04:36 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
So let's say my son was being disobedient. If I starve him for 2 days, that would be sadistically hurting him. But if I just cease from feeding him for 2 days, that's perfectly fine. Is that what you're saying?


No. You don't manage your son's body. You are not the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. I think you're going to be hard put to make an accurate analogy here which involves you.

The key to what I said is in these sentences:

Quote:
We don't often think in terms that God has to do anything to keep us healthy. We have the ideas that our bodies are self-working, that God's not really involved. But God is involved in the workings of nature, including our bodies, in ways we cannot even fathom.


The principles of GC 35, 36 apply:

Quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown....By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and (something bad happened)


Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from (experiencing bad things). The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the (bad things that would happen to them). But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the (bad things that would happen to them). The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.


I replaced the specific references to Satan with "bad things happened" to make clear my view that the principles explained here do not apply only to Satan. The statement:

Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy.


is not limited to simply protecting us from Satan. God is responsible for managing nature, and for managing our bodies, as well as preventing us from evil beings, and other things that could hurt us. If God withdraws His protection from any of these areas, bad things are bound to happen.

Now that I've answered your question, will you answer mine please? To make clear what I'm asking, at first you mentioned that sometimes God causes pain if this is eternally beneficial. I asked if this principle applied to human beings who also inflict pain upon others for what they think will be eternally beneficial. Your answer appeared to be "no," that this principle applies only to God, something akin to only He can be worshiped.

I pointed out that if holy angels cause pain for reasons that are eternally beneficial, then this principle is not akin to God's being worshiped, since angels cannot receive worship.

So we appear to have:

a.The principle of inflicting excruciating pain if it is eternally beneficial applies to God.
b.It also applies to angels.
c.Does it apply to humans as well? (if God commands humans similarly to how He commanded angels)

I'm interested in your answer to c.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #116341
07/19/09 04:39 PM
07/19/09 04:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: Teresaq, I believe the "His messengers" in post #116227 (above) refers to holy angels. I do not believe they symbolize the wicked turning their weapons on the unfaithful shepherds of the flock during the outpouring of the seven last plagues. Again, not saying anything about what you believe.

t: in other words you see the two paragraphs referring to two different "killings"? one paragraph is the lost slaughtering each other and the second paragraph is the angels slaughtering the lost?

I see the Bible and the SOP describing several things that will be happening during the outpouring of the plagues. The following passage touches on the demise of the wicked during this time period:

“[1] In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and [2] by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low.”

I believe the first point above refers to the scenes you quoted which describe the furious "multitude" killing the "false shepherds". And, I believe the second point above refers to holy angels causing death and disaster.

I also believe the men of Eze 9 and the angles of Rev 16 symbolize holy angels causing the death and destruction described in both chapters. I do not believe Eze 9 symbolizes the furious "multitude" killing the false shepherds. If one of the six men in Eze 9 symbolizes the angel who will number and seal the 144,000 just before probation closes how can the other five symbolize the furious "multitude"?

Now it's your turn to state your position as clearly as I have. Unless, of course, you haven't arrived at any solid conclusions, if you're still in study mode, if you're still undecided.

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