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The Covenants #11732
11/18/04 10:17 PM
11/18/04 10:17 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The New Covenant is the same thing as the Abrahamic covenant. It is salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone. This is how Abraham was saved and the only means by which any one cannot be saved.

The New Covenant included the promise of an inheritance, which was the new earth, to be received by the righteousness of faith. (Rom. 4:13) Since that land was an everlasting possession, the promise of the land includes the promise of everlasting life and the promise of the resurrection. Also since it would be a land in which righteousness would dwell (2 Pet. 3:13), the promise included righteousness. The promise included God Himself ("I am thy exceeding great reward" Gen 15 I think, from memory). And of course it included the promise of the Messiah, the Seed by who all nations would be blessed.

So in short, the promise included everything needed. Abraham believed, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

When God spoke to the COI, He pointed them to the promise, or covenant (same thing), He had made to Abraham. They misunderstood God, and rashly took it upon themselves to try to obtain the righteousness which God was attempting to give to them as a free gift. It was never God's intention that they or anyone else would try to obtain righteousness from the law, as such a thing is impossible. The people responded, "All that the Lord has said, WE will do." This is the essence of the Old Covenant -- works righteousness, attempting to obtain righteousness by good works.

It is important to note that God was not originally attempting to do anything with the COI other than what He done with Abraham, which was to preach the Gospel (Gal. 3:8). There was no need for God to institute a new or different plan because the plan He had was perfect. If the COI had simply believed God's promise, all would have been well.

Let us note how Jeremiah responded to the same words which God proclaimed to the COI:

"Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant, Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God: That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD."

The response of the people was "All that the Lord has said, we will do." The response of Jeremiah was "So be it, O LORD." Jeremiah understood God's words to be a promise, which they were. The only reason the Old Covenant came about in a formal sense was because of the unbelief of the people. This is why it can be said that the Old Covenant leads to bondage (Gal. 4:24). If it had originated from God, it would not have led to bondage because God does not lead us into bondage but out of bondage.

Finally the last point to tie together is showing that "promise" and 'covenant' are the same thing. "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Gal. 3:17, 18)

Genesis says that God made a covenant with Abraham to give him the land, but Paul says it was given to him by promise. He also says that to disannul the covenant would be to make the promise of none effect. This shows that "covenant" and "promise" are equivalent.

In summary, the essence of the Old Covenant is the attempt to obtain righteousness by keeping the law. The New Covenant is the writing of the law in the heart, which happens when righteousness is obtained by believing in Christ.

Re: The Covenants #11733
11/20/04 06:52 AM
11/20/04 06:52 AM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
One of the best things I've read on this subject is "Why the Old Covenant Failed," by Joe Crews --

http://www.nisbett.com/library/why_old_covenant_failed-los13.html

(including a devastating argument against Sunday sacredness!)

Re: The Covenants #11734
11/21/04 07:00 AM
11/21/04 07:00 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I got the impression that the presentation of Mr. Crews was presenting the Old Covenant as if it were God's intention to make a pact or agreement with the COI. "Notice how God asked Moses to present His offer to the people. Here are all the elements of a true covenant. Conditions and promises are laid down for both sides."

I don't think this is a right understanding of what was happening. Later on he writes:

"The crucial weakness in the whole arrangement revolved around the way Israel promised. There was no suggestion that they could not fully conform to every requirement of God. Neither was there any application for divine assistance. 'We can do it,' they insisted. Here is a perfect example of leaning on the flesh and trusting human strength. The words are filled with self-confidence. 'All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.'"

This is exactly right and an excellent description.

A key point to keep in mind is that the covenant (promise) God made with Abraham was perfect. There was no need for God to establish a different covenant with the COI, because there was nothing wrong with the one already in operation, the Everlasting Covenant, or Abrahamic Covenant. Indeed, this is exactly what God was doing -- repeating the promise He had made to Abraham.

Jeremiah understood what God was doing and responded, "So be it." This is an appropriate response to make to a promise. This is actually a translation of the Hebrew word "Amen" which has the connotation of "I believe." In other words, Jeremiah was responding exactly as Abraham did. Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteous. Same as for Jeremiah.

The Old Covenant was not an invention of God's, but originated with the people's response of unbelieve to God's gracious promises. The same Old Covenant principle manifests itself whenever one responds to God by unbelief, which inevitably leads to works-rightouesness. We see this principle as early as Cain, who brought an offering of vegetables to God.

Unbelief is the root of all sin, and we see that Cain killed his brother. Similarly the people's unbelief manifested itself in the debauchery at Sinai.

It is just as possible for one to be in principle under the Old Covenant now as it was for the COI.

Re: The Covenants #11735
11/22/04 11:11 AM
11/22/04 11:11 AM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
quote:
I got the impression that the presentation of Mr. Crews was presenting the Old Covenant as if it were God's intention to make a pact or agreement with the COI. "Notice how God asked Moses to present His offer to the people. Here are all the elements of a true covenant. Conditions and promises are laid down for both sides."

I don't think this is a right understanding of what was happening.

Why not, Tom? Isn't that what is covenant is, by definition?

Re: The Covenants #11736
11/22/04 03:44 PM
11/22/04 03:44 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
A "covenant" between two human parties could be seen as a pact, which each side has conditions to fulfil, etc. However, between God and man it's a one-way street. God already has everything, and we are not His equal. He promises everything we need and more than we can ask or think as a gift. The only condition on our part is to believe His promises, like Abraham did. "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." You can see in the Jer. 11 text referred to earlier that Jeremiah also understood this as he responded "So be it" or "Amen" (which is equivalent to "I believe") as opposed to the COI (children of Israel) who didn't understand and responded "All that the Lord has said, we will do."

Gal 3:17, 18 says, "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

Note that Paul equates disannuling the covenant with making the promise of no effect. In vs. 18 Paul says God gave the inheritance to Abraham by promise, but Genesis says God made a covenant to give him the land. So we see that the terms "covenant" and "promise" are equivalent.

God does not expect us to make promises to him (He knows we don't keep our promises) but to believe His promises to us. This in a nutshell is the difference between the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant is based on our vain promises to God, our vain attempts to obtain righteousness by the works of the law, whereas the New Covenant is based on the sure and secure promises of God to give us rigtheousness by faith in Christ.

Re: The Covenants #11737
11/23/04 05:31 AM
11/23/04 05:31 AM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
I must disagree with the one-way street idea. All covenants, even those between God and man, have conditions set on both sides. Otherwise we're getting into Calvinist thought.

Abraham did more than just believe God; "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. True belief always results in obedience, in action that puts the human in harmony with God's law. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10. "Righteousness" is the same as keeping God's law; Psalm 119:172, Romans 8:3,4.

It is true that the Old Covenant was based on faulty promises -- those of the Israelites, when they said, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Exodus 24:7. They were leaving out the concept of righteousness by faith in God, obeying in His strength.

Re: The Covenants #11738
11/24/04 04:06 AM
11/24/04 04:06 AM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
Interesting to know how righteousness is overlooked int he Bible, but God only desires that we are obedient by faith since the righteous will live by faith. Since righteous live by faith and are obedient, didn't Jesus tell us to "Go ye therefore into all the world", and aren't we suppose to proclaim the 3 Angels message to people especially those outside the SDA church?
With the above tasks at hand how is this message shown to others who hae not heard the message at all?
God Bless,
Will

Re: The Covenants #11739
11/24/04 12:05 AM
11/24/04 12:05 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
John, it's difficult to communicate with people because you don't know where they're coming from. If you say something one way, it's likely to be taken as license for sin. Say it another, and it's legalism. This quandry is something that causes me to admire Ellen G. White's writings. She's beautifully balanced.

By "one way street" I did not mean that God unilaterally does anything, the way Calvinism has in mind. What I meant is that God provides everything that we need, and more than we can ask or think, as a gift which we receive by faith. Among the gifts we receive is righteousness, which is obedience to the law (1 John 5:17, 1 John 3:4).

Does this make sense? If not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.

Re: The Covenants #11740
11/25/04 09:21 PM
11/25/04 09:21 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
Yeah, I think so. It's a sure fact that God has infinitely more to offer than we do! But still we have a role to play, there has to be two-way interaction in any covenant between God and man. He offers, we respond in faith and obedience.

Re: The Covenants #11741
11/27/04 08:31 PM
11/27/04 08:31 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The word "covenant" means "promise."

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Gal. 3:17, 18)

See how Paul equates "covenant" and "promise"? He says God gave Abraham the law by promise. Genesis says God made a covenant with Abraham to given him the land. These are just different ways of saying the same thing.

God has made promises to us. Our part is to believe those promises. Believing the promises of God is not like believing a mathematical formula, but results in our being transformed into the image of Christ.

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