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Re: plagues [Re: Green Cochoa] #117366
08/10/09 11:51 AM
08/10/09 11:51 AM
Tom  Offline
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14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
GC, it's hard to know how to respond to a post like this, as there are so many false assumptions gathered together, it would be tedious, and probably pointless, to try to disentangle them all. The purpose looks to be to ridicule a position you don't see light in, which doesn't foster an environment for discussion.

To give just one example of the false premises involved, let's consider point 10.

Quote:
The last plague was easy, of course. God always preserves our lives. The only part that makes me wonder is why He must preserve us from His own holy angels, who would kill us otherwise? But, I guess God preserved Balaam from His angel with the sword too, and Moses' life was preserved when similarly met in the wilderness by an angel with drawn sword. So God must have withdrawn His protection from His destroying angel for those poor firstborn.


The false assumption is here:

Quote:
The only part that makes me wonder is why He must preserve us from His own holy angels, who would kill us otherwise?


You assume that it's holy angels that killed the Egyptians. But the position you are ridiculing assumes it's unholy angels that killed the Egyptians. Hence the false premise.

The post is rife with such.

Fairness in discussing a position with which one does not agree involves accurately representing that position. To ridicule a position which is distorted is easy to do, and I suppose fun, but what purpose does it serve?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #117368
08/10/09 12:14 PM
08/10/09 12:14 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Tom,

I'm not sure the post was unfair. I said clearly in it that it was intended in a semi-serious, light-hearted way to express a theory that I do not personally hold.

I also did not say that you, or anyone in particular, would hold to such a view. I was presenting only how I would see it if I were to attempt to interpret the plagues under the "withdraw and permit" principle. I am convinced that you see a different angle, but I am unable to see it from your direction to understand how you have reached your interpretation.

The serious part of it, which I did not explicitly express, was the following message:

Even if you (generic "you", includes me too) explain the plagues under a "passive" modus operandi on God's part--that of "withdraw and permit," you still do not altogether remove from the picture a "tough love" side of God which executes justice upon sinners.

Had God truly used only "withdraw and permit" throughout all of the plagues, it still results in a distinct level of responsibility for them on God's part.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: plagues [Re: Green Cochoa] #117400
08/10/09 05:31 PM
08/10/09 05:31 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
A story is told of a young girl sitting on a park bench reading a Christian paper. As an atheist approaches, she cries out "Praise the Lord!" The atheist comes over to see what the excitement is about and learns that the girl had just read how God had opened up a path through the Red Sea for the children of Israel to go through. The atheist proceeds to carefully explain how the Red Sea is called the "Reed Sea" in modern times, and that its water is only a few inches deep. With a smug smile, the atheist goes on his way, only to hear shrieks of delight and more "Praise the Lord!" calls from the girl. He turns back to find out what the matter is. The girl says "God just drowned the entire Egyptian army in only a few inches of water!"

I see the plagues in a very similar light. God's actions cannot be explained away under the guise of "natural phenomena," nor can they be said to be merely God having withdrawn His protection and passively allowing the events described to take place. Nevertheless, if we were to suppose for a moment that God DID merely withdraw His protection....what might it have been like?

With that thought in mind, I have tried to explain the plagues, as follows.

NOTE: I do not espouse the interpretations that follow, I merely consider them here in a semi-serious, light-hearted way.

---------------
According to the "withdraw and permit" principle, the following (or similar explanation) must needs be true:

Ten Plagues (with history slightly updated)

  1. God had been purifying the polluted water of the Egyptians all along so that they would have something to drink. Now, God stops protecting the water, and lets it become blood. (But after one week, He protects it again so that it will be water.)
  2. Now, even while the river was unprotected, and bloody, God still protected all of the frogs' eggs which He had been shielding from both the pollution and the blood, and had been maintaining dormant as a mercy to the poor Egyptians. Now, God withdraws His protection so that the Egyptians can taste the reality of frogs--everywhere!
  3. The dust upon which the Egyptians walked was teeming with lice eggs, but God protected them from the eggs. God did not even allow the magicians to find those eggs when trying to repeat Moses' "trick", and this was after God had already withdrawn His protection so that lice covered the land of Egypt like dust.
  4. While those frogs lay in stinking heaps, God was building up His army of flies! Now, by "permitting" them to come, He "allows" the flies to swarm out in unison...except for in Goshen. The frogs in Goshen had not drawn flies, so they still stank without nature's remedy.
  5. Now, the flies had distributed an infectious disease among all of the cattle. So when the plague of murain came, it was actually just a natural outbreak with serendipitous timing.
  6. The boils came from the same plague of the murain, which managed to infect the poor Egyptians as they buried their dead cattle. God was unmerciful in not protecting them.
  7. God had been protecting the Egyptians from the scourge of hail all along, and so the upper atmosphere had such a weight of hail that when God withdrew His protection, it became such a hailstorm as they had never known before. If only God had not protected them so much, perhaps the hail would have come down a little at a time and caused no damage. But by withdrawing His protection now, He would prove He was God. Had He not predicted it?
  8. The army of locusts had been around all along too, but God had been preventing the winds from blowing them toward Egypt. Now, it was but a simple matter to withdraw that protection so that the locusts would devour the remnant of the Egyptian crops.
  9. This miracle is amazing! God has been protecting the entire earth all along from the power of a "black hole" which would eat up our sunshine. However, just to prove to the Egyptians who He was, He withdrew that protection for three days...ONLY for the part of the land where the Egyptians lived!
  10. The last plague was easy, of course. God always preserves our lives. The only part that makes me wonder is why He must preserve us from His own holy angels, who would kill us otherwise? But, I guess God preserved Balaam from His angel with the sword too, and Moses' life was preserved when similarly met in the wilderness by an angel with drawn sword. So God must have withdrawn His protection from His destroying angel for those poor firstborn.
everyone is entitled to their opinion but i would remind what the messenger of the Lord says:

It is best for every soul to closely investigate what mental food is served up for them to eat. When those come to you who live to talk and who are all armed and equipped to say, "Report, and we will report it," stop and think if the conversation will give spiritual help, spiritual efficiency, that in spiritual communication you may eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God, "to whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious." These words express much. We are not to be tattlers, or gossipers or tale bearers; we are not to bear false witness. We are forbidden by God to engage in trifling, foolish conversation, in jesting, in joking, or speaking any idle words. We must give an account of what we say to God. We will be brought into judgment for our hasty words, that do no good to the speaker or the hearer. Then let us all speak words that will tend to edification. Remember that you are of value with God. Allow no cheap, foolish talk, or wrong principles to compose your Christian experience. {KC 64.3}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: plagues [Re: teresaq] #117409
08/10/09 07:07 PM
08/10/09 07:07 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
GC:I'm not sure the post was unfair.


Regarding fairness, what I wrote was:

Quote:
Fairness in discussing a position with which one does not agree involves accurately representing that position. To ridicule a position which is distorted is easy to do, and I suppose fun, but what purpose does it serve?


I understand you were trying to be funny, and I appreciate the disclaimer, but the distortions take away from the humor for me. I'm not sure how appropriate ridicule is, in general, when discussing things like this as well.

Quote:
I said clearly in it that it was intended in a semi-serious, light-hearted way to express a theory that I do not personally hold.


Nobody holds the view.

Quote:
I also did not say that you, or anyone in particular, would hold to such a view.


It doesn't need to be said, as it's so clearly implied.

Quote:
I was presenting only how I would see it if I were to attempt to interpret the plagues under the "withdraw and permit" principle. I am convinced that you see a different angle, but I am unable to see it from your direction to understand how you have reached your interpretation.


I haven't gone through each of the plagues to try to decipher this, as I see no necessity for it.

The way to reach the interpretation is simple. Start with the principle that all that we can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ in His humanity. Add to this that what Jesus Christ taught, He lived. This means that by studying Christ's life, we can see what God is like. I don't see that the traditional understanding of the plagues corresponds to what Jesus Christ lived. I let what Jesus Christ lived be the "tie-breaker."

Quote:
The serious part of it, which I did not explicitly express, was the following message:

Even if you (generic "you", includes me too) explain the plagues under a "passive" modus operandi on God's part--that of "withdraw and permit," you still do not altogether remove from the picture a "tough love" side of God which executes justice upon sinners.


Why not? The "tough love" part, I thoroughly agree with. Nobody knows "tough love" like God. However, I don't understand why you would tie this to "executing justice upon sinners." Or, to put it more accurately perhaps, such a tie is unnecessary. That is, one can do "tough love" without "executing justice."

Now, to be clear, I believe in the concept of executing justice, as I believe it is expressed in Scripture, such as here:

Quote:
8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?(Micah 6:6)


and here:

Quote:
“Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother. (Zech. 7:9)


But I think how you are using the phrase is as a euphemism for God's causing the wicked to suffer in die as a punishment for what they've done. If that's what you mean, I don't see that this is "tough love." If that's not what you mean, then that would be great.

Quote:
Had God truly used only "withdraw and permit" throughout all of the plagues, it still results in a distinct level of responsibility for them on God's part.


You may have noticed that I have objected when MM has expressed things this way. I have pointed out that the SOP expressed the concept as people causing God to withdraw His protection. If you wish to express an idea that I'm actually trying to share, please use that language, as opposed to MM's language, which I've been arguing against (unfortunately, with very limited success) for some time now.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the people caused God to remove His protection. What do you see to be God's responsibility in this case?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #117422
08/10/09 09:48 PM
08/10/09 09:48 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Tom,

The Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are both exceedingly clear that God directly brought the plagues upon the Egyptians. It was not a matter of "I will withdraw my protection, and see what happens next." God was applying His judgments directly.

If you do not choose to accept that, I think God's judgments yet future will come as a shock to you. The seven last plagues will be more terrible than the ten which Egypt experienced, and I have no doubt in my mind but that God is directly in control of them, not just "withdrawing protection" (which I agree that He does) and then seeing what the devil conjures up with the extra liberty. The devil will not be the source of the plagues. He may be a recipient instead. Who knows? He feared for his life during the flood...and yet, I do not understand how you would interpret that event either.

In my mind, we remove a portion of God's honor in trying to attribute the plagues to any other source. God was honored to be recognized as the responsible party for their causation. This let the world know that He was God and He alone. The love portion of the story is in the fact that through these plagues, He was able to bring a large company of people out of bondage and into a closer relationship with Himself. That is what "executing justice" means here. Freeing the oppressed from the oppressor. Yes, God brought death upon the oppressor in some of those plagues. However, it is worthy of note that any Egyptian who followed what Moses said did not need to die, and indeed, some did follow Moses. God is good. But God is not mocked. Those who did not follow received the promised punishment.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #117434
08/10/09 10:41 PM
08/10/09 10:41 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
For the sake of argument, let's assume that the people caused God to remove His protection. What do you see to be God's responsibility in this case?

Tom, using the example I gave in a previous discussion, if a person who wants to jump from a building asks you to remove the protection net you put there, and you do remove it, are you exempt from any responsibility for the death of the person?

Re: plagues [Re: Rosangela] #117454
08/11/09 02:04 AM
08/11/09 02:04 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Rosangela, according to the SOP, those who rejected God *caused* Him to remove His protection:

Quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them ... (GC 35)


So to relate this to your example, we would need to say that the person jumping *caused* (not asked) the protection to be removed.

Do you see that God was responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #117455
08/11/09 02:17 AM
08/11/09 02:17 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
GC:The Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are both exceedingly clear that God directly brought the plagues upon the Egyptians.


The Bible and the SOP are both exceedingly clear that Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. The SOP tells us that what Jesus taught, He lived. So the life of Jesus Christ is a full and complete picture, or revelation, of God. So where did Jesus Christ act as you picture God acting in the plagues of Egypt?

Quote:
It was not a matter of "I will withdraw my protection, and see what happens next." God was applying His judgments directly.


Again, where do you see this in the life of Jesus Christ in His humanity?

Quote:
If you do not choose to accept that, I think God's judgments yet future will come as a shock to you.


This is a good point. On the other hand, if *you* choose not to accept that Jesus Christ in His humanity was a full and complete revelation of God, then *you* may mistake the work of Satan for the work of God. This follows logically, doesn't it?

I agree with you that the stakes are very high here in having the right view of things.

(I need to supplement my statement here "if *you* choose not to accept that Jesus Christ in His humanity was a full and complete revelation of God..." I doubt you would flat out state, "Jesus Christ was not a full and complete revelation of God," so I'm not speaking of your words or conscious belief here. What I'm suggesting is that if you believe that God (or Jesus Christ, if you want to say this was He) acted fundamentally differently than how Christ acted in His humanity, then, in effect, you are saying that you don't believe that Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of the God of the OT.)

Quote:
The seven last plagues will be more terrible than the ten which Egypt experienced, and I have no doubt in my mind but that God is directly in control of them, not just "withdrawing protection" (which I agree that He does) and then seeing what the devil conjures up with the extra liberty. The devil will not be the source of the plagues. He may be a recipient instead. Who knows? He feared for his life during the flood...and yet, I do not understand how you would interpret that event either.


According to the SOP, the "great deceiver" hides his own work by making it appear that God does the things which He permits (which Satan actually does). From 14 MR 3 we read:

Quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.


Here it points out that "t is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey." I find the belief that God's power will combine with Satan's power to do exactly the same thing which Satan's power is doing odd.

Quote:
In my mind, we remove a portion of God's honor in trying to attribute the plagues to any other source.


Unless this is really the "great deceiver hiding his own work." In this case we would be doing the reverse to get this wrong, right?

Quote:
God was honored to be recognized as the responsible party for their causation. This let the world know that He was God and He alone. The love portion of the story is in the fact that through these plagues, He was able to bring a large company of people out of bondage and into a closer relationship with Himself. That is what "executing justice" means here. Freeing the oppressed from the oppressor. Yes, God brought death upon the oppressor in some of those plagues. However, it is worthy of note that any Egyptian who followed what Moses said did not need to die, and indeed, some did follow Moses. God is good. But God is not mocked. Those who did not follow received the promised punishment.


According to the SOP, the use of force is the last resort of all false religion. Wouldn't what you're suggesting have true religion and false religion doing the same thing?

Also, how is it that you view that God is capable of using force and violence to get His way? Where is Jesus Christ's life do yous see this happening? Also, what about the statements from the SOP that compelling power is only to be found in the government of Satan, and that the Lord's principles are not of this order? Do you understand her to mean that generally speaking the Lord's principles are not of this order? Or do you see the plagues of Egypt as not using compelling power?

A final question: How is it that you see that God is honored by having death and destruction attributed to Him?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #117456
08/11/09 02:30 AM
08/11/09 02:30 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
The Bible and the SOP are both exceedingly clear that Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God.

Been out of it for a while, but I saw this.

Tom, I remember touching on this some weeks ago, but don't remember resolving it. Are you saying that if we read only Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and ignored the rest of the Bible, we would still know as much about God as if we had studied the entire Bible? IOW, is there no information in the other 62 books that is not included in the 4 Gospels?

I remember listening to a Chuck Swindoll sermon where he mentioned having a big problem and determined to read the New Testament until he found the solution God had for him. I thought his focus was too narrow, since he was leaving out the OT. Would you say his focus was too broad, since everything can be found in the Gospels?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: plagues [Re: Tom] #117457
08/11/09 02:34 AM
08/11/09 02:34 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
It was not a matter of "I will withdraw my protection, and see what happens next." God was applying His judgments directly.


Again, where do you see this in the life of Jesus Christ in His humanity?

The cursed fig tree.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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