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Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? #117578
08/12/09 09:19 PM
08/12/09 09:19 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Quote:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


Quote:
Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other;...


Quote:
Mar 14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.


Quote:
Joh 18:22 And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?

Joh 19:2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
Joh 19:3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
Joh 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
Joh 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
Joh 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
Joh 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.



Mar 15:29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
Mar 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
Mar 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
Mar 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

so, was Jesus weak for allowing others to heap such abuse on Him? did He have to struggle not to retaliate?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117608
08/13/09 06:39 AM
08/13/09 06:39 AM
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crater  Offline
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I had this little embroidered saying and it comes to mind here.

"If you think being meek is weak,
try being meek for a week!" smile

Last edited by crater; 08/13/09 06:40 AM. Reason: spelling
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: crater] #117621
08/13/09 04:01 PM
08/13/09 04:01 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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amen to that!!


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117758
08/19/09 02:10 PM
08/19/09 02:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Jesus didn't allow them to heap abuse on Him until the "time". No one laid a hand on Him until the "time". He regularly escaped imminent danger without incident. He said "My time is not yet come." Then later on He said, "My time is at hand." That's when He allowed them to torture Him. And, no, Jesus didn't have to fight back wanting to hurt them. He loved them in spite of what they were doing to Him. There was nothing weak or wimpy about it. Such love requires supernatural strength. I pray for it all the time.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117759
08/19/09 02:13 PM
08/19/09 02:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Don't know if this is off topic - but is it God's will for us to fight for our rights or to fight to defend ourselves? Or, does He expect us to allow people to hurt us and take our stuff?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117767
08/19/09 02:55 PM
08/19/09 02:55 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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its amazing those are the only two options that come to our minds isnt it?!?

well it was for me, anyway, until incidents like these started registering on my mind.

check out the story of jehoshaphat.

it isnt singular.

or how about these?
Exo 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
Deu 1:30 The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes;
Deu 3:22 Ye shall not fear them: for the LORD your God he shall fight for you.
Deu 20:4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117772
08/19/09 03:04 PM
08/19/09 03:04 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus didn't allow them to heap abuse on Him until the "time".
He didnt?

didnt His brothers abuse Him constantly because they didnt understand Him?

thats just for starters.

but then again, i guess, it all depends on how we define "abuse".
the less we know exactly what it involves the more we are likely to practice it.

Quote:
Such love requires supernatural strength. I pray for it all the time.
it can only be a gift, thank God, because i havent been able to manufacture it yet.

and wouldnt give 2 cents for the love others might think they have. smile


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117795
08/19/09 08:59 PM
08/19/09 08:59 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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There seems to be a fine balance between being meek and asserting one's rights.

When Christ was accused by the priests and Pharisees, he preserved his self-control, but he took his position decidedly that their charges were untrue. He said to them: "Which of you convinceth me of sin?" "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why smitest thou me?" He knew that his position was right. When Paul and Silas were beaten and thrust into prison without trial or sentence, they did not surrender their right to be treated as honest citizens. When there was a great earthquake, and the foundations of the prison were shaken, and the doors were opened, and every man's bands were loosed, and the magistrates sent word to the prisoners that they might depart in peace, Paul entered a protest, and said: "They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? Nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out. . . . And they came and besought them, and brought them out, and desired them to depart out of the city." Through the action of Paul and Silas the name of God was magnified and the authorities were humbled. It was necessary that the honor of God should be vindicated at this time.
At all times and in all places the Christian should be that which the Lord designs that he should be,--a free man in Christ Jesus. ... To be meek does not mean that we shall regard ourselves as in a servile condition; for Christ is our sufficiency. ... In the world the Christian will be slighted and dishonored, and will consent to be least of all and servant of all. He will submit to be injured, to be despitefully used and persecuted, but wearing the yoke of Christ he will find rest unto his soul, and the yoke will not be galling. {ST, August 22, 1895 par. 4, 5}

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #117798
08/19/09 10:01 PM
08/19/09 10:01 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
There seems to be a fine balance between being meek and asserting one's rights.

When Christ was accused by the priests and Pharisees, he preserved his self-control, but he took his position decidedly that their charges were untrue.... He knew that his position was right. When Paul and Silas were beaten and thrust into prison without trial or sentence, they did not surrender their right to be treated as honest citizens.... Paul entered a protest, and said: "They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? Nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out. . . . Through the action of Paul and Silas the name of God was magnified and the authorities were humbled. It was necessary that the honor of God should be vindicated at this time.
At all times and in all places the Christian should be that which the Lord designs that he should be,--a free man in Christ Jesus. ... {ST, August 22, 1895 par. 4, 5}
interesting points being brought up at this particular time! also interesting how the Lord works when one calls on Him.

notice in Jesus case, and multitudes of others, they went ahead and continued to disrespect Him specifically, by putting Him on the cross. with others they were burned at the stake. that continues to happen with others today who are in the right. events are twisted and made to look as if one thing happened when in reality completely different events happened. that is just one example. our words can also be twisted, as they tried to do with Jesus, but He knew what He had said and what the issue was.

we never know when God will allow us to go down in ignominy,

or when He will intervene causing the ones in the wrong to hang him/herself.

in either case it is to His glory. at all times we are to turn the other cheek in love and allow God to work out our vengence for His glory.

in the end He wants to save the one harming others, in whatever form that might be, as much as He wants to save the one being harmed.

Psa 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law. i am always amazed at how He works when we call on Him to act! how he lets the perpetrators hang themselves leaves me with my mouth open.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117807
08/20/09 01:17 AM
08/20/09 01:17 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Yes, since both Jesus' and Paul's behavior was beyond reproach, nothing could be said against them. This was the reason why they could assert their rights. And the same must be true of every Christian.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #117816
08/20/09 03:51 AM
08/20/09 03:51 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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notice how gently the Lord can work!! absolutely amazing! then i guess He has to get stronger sometimes. frown and even sadder is when He has to give up, "let ephraim go". then He stops trying to convict us but lets us go the way we insist on going. we wonder at the jewish people in the days of Christ and the apostles.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Yes, since both Jesus' and Paul's behavior was beyond reproach, nothing could be said against them.
thats an interesting perspective.

it seems quite a bit was said against them, by those in power with Jesus, from the way i read it. but both Jesus and paul knew they were in the right. they knew the charges were not trueaccording to the quote.

while there was a higher earthly authority that could be appealed to that doesnt always work, again with the example of Jesus.

a side issue worthy of its own topic.

im not sure if your quotes relate to mms questions. "turn the other cheek" would have to do with not retaliating when someone does a real or perceived wrong, i would think. i dont see it related to speaking up when wrongs are committed.

defending ourself can get touchy. i would think what is going on in our mind as we consider defending ourselves would probably be the key to whether we are doing right or not.

are we out to get the other person? are we caring more about our self-preservation than the salvation of the other person? are we out to stop them no matter what methods/tactics we have to use? do we feel any "tugging" of the Holy Spirit?

those are some questions that come to mind.

but ultimately, i wonder if we are willing to allow the Lord control of the situation even if it means our death?



Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117817
08/20/09 03:57 AM
08/20/09 03:57 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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do we see Jesus as weak for allowing others to mistreat Him almost from day 1? He was God. He came to show us how the Father is. would the Father "get even"?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117826
08/20/09 02:14 PM
08/20/09 02:14 PM
Tom  Offline
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I don't believe asserting one's rights is the right concept. What Christ was doing was speaking out in behalf of the truth. There was no self-interest involved, but "truth-interest."

To throw a monkey wrench into things, it's very easy for us to deceive ourselves, and think we are acting out of "righteousness indignation" or some appropriate principle, when really we're just acting out of self interest. The truth is important, but defending our self isn't.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Tom] #117828
08/20/09 02:34 PM
08/20/09 02:34 PM
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Well I've certainly had some "righteous indignation" myself this week. Not for myself, but for the way some good friends of mine were treated.

I think it is appropriate to have "righteous indignation" in certain situations. In this case, it was a classic example of church politics at play. The two-faced leader who wished to boot these friends of mine from the institution came sweetly to them with a face of sympathy, promising to help them, if possible, to be able to stay. At the board meeting later, instead of bringing up the options this person had promised to raise in the meeting, this "leader" actually recommended against them, and in favor of a different plan which would mean my hapless friends would have just two days to exit the country, since they would no longer be able to renew their visas. This left them in a quandary, with countless things to pack, tickets to buy, paperwork to do, etc. on extremely short notice. These friends of mine have been very dedicated missionary workers here, and to my knowledge are the only ones in the institution having regular Bible studies with the non-Christian locals.

"We wrestle not against flesh and blood...." But it hurts to have it come from our own side...."friendly fire" they call it?

If it's a sin to be "righteously indignant" over such unChristian, and unfair treatment of others, please pray for me, as this has hit me hard.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Tom] #117830
08/20/09 04:41 PM
08/20/09 04:41 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
I don't believe asserting one's rights is the right concept. What Christ was doing was speaking out in behalf of the truth. There was no self-interest involved, but "truth-interest."

To throw a monkey wrench into things, it's very easy for us to deceive ourselves, and think we are acting out of "righteousness indignation" or some appropriate principle, when really we're just acting out of self interest. The truth is important, but defending our self isn't.
even defending the truth can cause us to break the law, whether ignorantly or willfully. many times we can think we are defending the truth, when in reality we are merely defending our own particular understanding but dont know it.

i think defending a churchs stance on any position would also come into play here. blindly defending any churchs position without having studied out the issues involved..."the church teaches it and that settles it for me". the church has to be right....

we really havent learned any lessons from history. when we start defending the churchs position over studying for ourselves, well, that seems to me to make us just as papal as any papist.

speaking the truth, many times, upsets the status quo which brings out the defenders of the status quo.

those dark ages were bloody, as were the reformation years. what is the estimation of how many the papacy put to death? what about both sides of the reformation years?

which brings us back to turning the other cheek and not retaliating when wronged whether real or perceived.

green cochoa, i am very sorry for what is going on with your friends. i will keep the situation in prayer. may God do what is right for all involved.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117882
08/21/09 03:17 PM
08/21/09 03:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Again, Jesus did everything on time, in a timely manner, according to the schedule mapped out for Him from eternity. He turned the other cheek when the time was right. But He also employed "His strange act" when the time was right. While here in the flesh, Jesus did not wield the sword. The time wasn't right. The "two phases of Christ's work,--as a suffering sacrifice and a conquering king" (DA 136) play out according to precise timing.

Ecclesiastes
3:1 To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;
3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117887
08/21/09 04:31 PM
08/21/09 04:31 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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turning the other cheek means to not retaliate when mistreated. are you saying there is a time to retaliate?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117888
08/21/09 04:53 PM
08/21/09 04:53 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Were not a great many untrue things spoken concerning the Saviour, and did He retaliate? God wants us to stand in moral dignity, recommending the divine power that enables us to possess our souls in patience. {GCB, April 4, 1901 par. 19}

Every man who transgresses the law of God places himself on the wrong side. His nature changes, and he becomes evil. All such will assuredly oppress their fellow men. God's people will suffer persecution from those who, if they had the Spirit of the Master, would manifest the same pitying love. But they are moved by a power from beneath, and they teach for doctrine the commandments of men. They do battle against God in the person of his saints; but God would have us remember that we are not to retaliate under provocation. {RH, November 7, 1899 par. 19}

But there were some who sought his society, feeling at peace in his presence, because he never contended for his rights. Tho he loved his brethren, yet they hated him, and manifested the most decided unbelief and contempt. In his home life, where all should have been at peace, he was constantly confronted by envy and jealousy. His labors were made unnecessarily severe because he was willing and uncomplaining. He did not fail nor become discouraged. He lived above these difficulties, as if in the light of God's countenance. He did not retaliate when he was roughly used, but bore insult patiently, and in his human nature became an example for all children and youth. He endured the heat and the cold, the sun and the rain, of his native hills and valleys. {ST, August 6, 1896 par. 8}

If you are annoyed or threatened in the streets by quarrelsome boys, do not retaliate. It is truly noble to forgive and pass over a wrong; but it is mean and cowardly to revenge an injury. Let me entreat you to be above everything like engaging in a dispute, or speaking disrespectfully or sneeringly of those who annoy you, and do not respect themselves enough to behave properly. Such boys are to be pitied. They have but little happiness. {AY 65.1}

Who and What is our example? how Christ lived on this earth? or a, perhaps faulty, picture of the God of the universe?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Tom] #117905
08/21/09 10:36 PM
08/21/09 10:36 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
I don't believe asserting one's rights is the right concept. What Christ was doing was speaking out in behalf of the truth. There was no self-interest involved, but "truth-interest."

To throw a monkey wrench into things, it's very easy for us to deceive ourselves, and think we are acting out of "righteousness indignation" or some appropriate principle, when really we're just acting out of self interest. The truth is important, but defending our self isn't.

If you are having trouble with the word "assert," you can express it in another way. I'm limited in this respect, as you know. But there is a fine balance between being meek and not surrendering one's rights.

To be meek is not to surrender our rights; but it is the preservation of self-control under provocation to give way to anger or to the spirit of retaliation. Meekness will not allow passion to take the lines. {ST, August 22, 1895 par. 3}

As I said, there must be a fine balance here. Being a people pleaser and a doormat for others is one extreme. Thinking that you are being persecuted if someone simply disagrees with you or sees things in a different light from you; or, drawing persecution upon yourself, is the other extreme. The key word is balance, and balance is found in unselfish meekness - not surrendering one's rights, but also not retaliating when under real persecution.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117906
08/21/09 10:55 PM
08/21/09 10:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
turning the other cheek means to not retaliate when mistreated. are you saying there is a time to retaliate?

I tend to think turning the other cheek means to keep our eyes on Jesus when someone is being abusive. However, I do not think it means to hand over my daughter after the bad guy is done raping my wife.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117907
08/21/09 11:08 PM
08/21/09 11:08 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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True. I don't think Lot's behavior in offering his two daughters was correct - or meek.
Turning the other cheek must have a context - and it doesn't seem to be something literal, or something applicable to all circumstances, for when Christ was slapped in the face at His trial, He didn't turn the other cheek but said instead, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?"

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117913
08/22/09 03:04 AM
08/22/09 03:04 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: teresaq
turning the other cheek means to not retaliate when mistreated. are you saying there is a time to retaliate?

I tend to think turning the other cheek means to keep our eyes on Jesus when someone is being abusive. However, I do not think it means to hand over my daughter after the bad guy is done raping my wife.
i find it intriguing that almost immediately the topic turned to protecting ourself instead of studying Christs meekness.

i would think we already had self and self-preservation down to an artform.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #117916
08/22/09 03:31 AM
08/22/09 03:31 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Turning the other cheek ... for when Christ was slapped in the face at His trial, He didn't turn the other cheek but said instead, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?"
ahhhh! the light is dawning!! it looks like i have developed a different picture of what turning the other cheek means than, apparently, others have developed.

for me, Jesus did turn the other cheek. pointing out abuse is not being retaliatory. of course it didnt do Him much good. they wanted to shut Him up so bad they didnt care what they did to Him.

i think Jesus was very strong in allowing others to mistreat Him over and over - and loved them still. still spent hours in prayer to reach out to any and all, to heal those who would never thank Him...


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117945
08/22/09 02:26 PM
08/22/09 02:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: I tend to think turning the other cheek means to keep our eyes on Jesus when someone is being abusive. However, I do not think it means to hand over my daughter after the bad guy is done raping my wife.

t: i find it intriguing that almost immediately the topic turned to protecting ourself instead of studying Christs meekness. i would think we already had self and self-preservation down to an artform.

I don't understand your comment. Are you surprised someone would observe on this thread that turning the other cheek means keeping our eyes on Jesus?

In what sense do you think refusing to offer my daughter to be raped after the bad guy is done raping my wife is an art form of self and self-preservation?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117951
08/22/09 04:51 PM
08/22/09 04:51 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
turning the other cheek means to not retaliate when mistreated
Originally Posted By: teresaq
it looks like i have developed a different picture of what turning the other cheek means than, apparently, others have developed.

for me, Jesus did turn the other cheek. pointing out abuse is not being retaliatory.

True. Your definition is only one of several available. Context determines which definition applies.

Originally Posted By: teresaq
i think Jesus was very strong in allowing others to mistreat Him over and over - and loved them still.

Yes, we could say Jesus was very strong. We could also say Jesus was very loving.

There are times when God's strength is displayed by NOT allowing mistreatment. And He will love both the mistreated and the mistreater.

Love will dictate what God will do - whether to allow mistreatment or prevent it.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117955
08/22/09 05:26 PM
08/22/09 05:26 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
In what sense do you think refusing to offer my daughter to be raped after the bad guy is done raping my wife is an art form of self and self-preservation?

There is a masochistic concept of meekness. But that's not what God has in mind.

If someone comes to rape my wife, I will definitely have a few words with the bad guy. And I guarantee that one of us will be incapacitated by the time the conversation is over. If he does finish with my wife, I will be in no condition to offer my daughter.

I love my wife and daughter too much to let someone do that to them, and I love the bad guy too much to let him do that to himself.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: asygo] #117956
08/22/09 05:35 PM
08/22/09 05:35 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: teresaq
turning the other cheek means to not retaliate when mistreated
Originally Posted By: teresaq
it looks like i have developed a different picture of what turning the other cheek means than, apparently, others have developed.

for me, Jesus did turn the other cheek. pointing out abuse is not being retaliatory.

True. Your definition is only one of several available. Context determines which definition applies.
im interested to know other definitions that would apply in Jesus life here on earth. "Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek?" (i didnt mean for it to rhyme, it just turned out that way. smile )

we are told that Jesus life here on earth is our example so studying His life, i would think, would cover all the bases.

i mean, that His life would show what turning the other cheek is and is not.

would you agree or disagree?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117958
08/22/09 05:41 PM
08/22/09 05:41 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: I tend to think turning the other cheek means to keep our eyes on Jesus when someone is being abusive. However, I do not think it means to hand over my daughter after the bad guy is done raping my wife.

t: i find it intriguing that almost immediately the topic turned to protecting ourself instead of studying Christs meekness. i would think we already had self and self-preservation down to an artform.

I don't understand your comment. Are you surprised someone would observe on this thread that turning the other cheek means keeping our eyes on Jesus?

In what sense do you think refusing to offer my daughter to be raped after the bad guy is done raping my wife is an art form of self and self-preservation?
we are told that Jesus life here on earth is our example so studying His life, i would think, would cover all the bases.

i mean, that His life would show what turning the other cheek is and is not.

would you agree or disagree?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117977
08/22/09 11:04 PM
08/22/09 11:04 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Pardon my jumping in, but what conclusions have we reached so far?
Turning the other cheek shouldn’t be taken in the literal sense, but in the figurative sense of not retaliating, for when Christ was slapped in the face at His trial, He didn't physically turn the other cheek, but pointed out abuse. As you said, pointing out abuse is not being retaliatory. Now, MM is just analyzing a situation which goes one step further. Instead of simply pointing out abuse, he is analyzing the question of preventing abuse. So the question is, Being meek, or turning the other cheek, means you must let abuse happen? How can this question be answered on the basis of Christ’s life?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #117980
08/22/09 11:27 PM
08/22/09 11:27 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Pardon my jumping in, but what conclusions have we reached so far? Turning the other cheek shouldn’t be taken in the literal sense, ...


i dont know. im up for trying it out, by the grace of God. unfortunately, being altogether too human, i hope i remember. it doesnt necessarily mean actually being hit...it can apply to something else. either way im up for it.

i remember reading one particular book about a russian police officer who routinely, with others, hunted down the christians in the woods. he related an event where an old woman was being hit. she prayed out loud, Father, forgive them. he felt someone grab his arm, tho no one did, as he was about to hit her again. eventually he was converted.

another story is of a man who would be raking his lawn or whatever and certain individuals would come along and push him down and taunt him. he just got back up and kept on what he was doing. it ended up impressing the taunters so much they stopped.

ive read many such stories.

so my question would be, where does trust in God play into this?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117982
08/22/09 11:57 PM
08/22/09 11:57 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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OK, but what I see in these stories (and others I've read) is that the people being abused had no way to prevent the abuse (an old woman x a police officer, one man x several individuals). The same was true of Christ (humanly speaking), who probably had His hands tied and was being guarded by the Temple police. So they were unable to prevent the abuse, but though abused they didn't show any anger or resort to retaliation. However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117991
08/23/09 02:43 AM
08/23/09 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: I tend to think turning the other cheek means to keep our eyes on Jesus when someone is being abusive. However, I do not think it means to hand over my daughter after the bad guy is done raping my wife.

t: i find it intriguing that almost immediately the topic turned to protecting ourself instead of studying Christs meekness. i would think we already had self and self-preservation down to an artform.

M: I don't understand your comment. Are you surprised someone would observe on this thread that turning the other cheek means keeping our eyes on Jesus?

In what sense do you think refusing to offer my daughter to be raped after the bad guy is done raping my wife is an art form of self and self-preservation?

t: we are told that Jesus life here on earth is our example so studying His life, i would think, would cover all the bases. i mean, that His life would show what turning the other cheek is and is not. would you agree or disagree?

Why would you limit it to Jesus' life here on earth? Ellen White taught that we should study Jesus' example in both the OT and the NT. She wrote, "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}

Also, I don't understand how your comments and question address the two questions I asked you. Here they are again:

1. I don't understand your comment. Are you surprised someone would observe on this thread that turning the other cheek means keeping our eyes on Jesus?

2. In what sense do you think refusing to offer my daughter to be raped after the bad guy is done raping my wife is an art form of self and self-preservation?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117992
08/23/09 02:50 AM
08/23/09 02:50 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?

Absolutely. I was a special forces sergeant in the US Air Force, and we were taught how to "diffuse, deescalate, and disarm enemy combatants". It usually worked wonderfully well. However, I understand it doesn't work at all on Jihadists. Apparently their zealous desires rob them of normal human values.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118036
08/23/09 06:28 PM
08/23/09 06:28 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
OK, but what I see in these stories (and others I've read) is that the people being abused had no way to prevent the abuse (an old woman x a police officer, one man x several individuals). The same was true of Christ (humanly speaking), who probably had His hands tied and was being guarded by the Temple police. So they were unable to prevent the abuse, but though abused they didn't show any anger or resort to retaliation. However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested. there are many stories like his, also.

but you all are sure making me feel good. laugh i thought i was the only one looking for "loopholes"


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118038
08/23/09 06:40 PM
08/23/09 06:40 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Why would you limit it to Jesus' life here on earth? Ellen White taught that we should study Jesus' example in both the OT and the NT. She wrote, "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}



Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Mar 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118060
08/24/09 01:41 AM
08/24/09 01:41 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested.

What would be the motivation of the man for calling the police? Wouldn't he do it because he was angry, or as a kind of retaliation?
In case he didn't call the police, nor had any kind of reaction, but after the individuals had left he cherished anger, would heaven consider him meek?
In case it was just one individual attacking him, and he tried to prevent him from doing that by holding him, talking to him and seeking to calm him down, wouldn't heaven consider him meek?
I think the key is your inner attitude, what is in your heart. And in some way the aggressor can sense it.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118068
08/24/09 04:02 AM
08/24/09 04:02 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested.

What would be the motivation of the man for calling the police? Wouldn't he do it because he was angry, or as a kind of retaliation?
In case he didn't call the police, nor had any kind of reaction, but after the individuals had left he cherished anger, would heaven consider him meek?
In case it was just one individual attacking him, and he tried to prevent him from doing that by holding him, talking to him and seeking to calm him down, wouldn't heaven consider him meek?
I think the key is your inner attitude, what is in your heart. And in some way the aggressor can sense it.

my original post to which you replied above is below. you said the man was not able to do anything about his tormenters like the other examples given. i was pointing out that in his case he could call the police.
Originally Posted By: teresaq
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
OK, but what I see in these stories (and others I've read) is that the people being abused had no way to prevent the abuse (an old woman x a police officer, one man x several individuals). The same was true of Christ (humanly speaking), who probably had His hands tied and was being guarded by the Temple police. So they were unable to prevent the abuse, but though abused they didn't show any anger or resort to retaliation. However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested. there are many stories like his, also.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118096
08/24/09 05:50 PM
08/24/09 05:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Yes, but what I was trying to point out is that, IMO, suffering the abuse without responding to it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is meek, and trying to prevent the other person from abusing doesn't mean that the person isn't meek. Is that explanation clearer or have I just made the waters muddier? smile

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118124
08/25/09 04:16 AM
08/25/09 04:16 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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But there were some who sought his society,
feeling at peace in his presence,

because he never contended for his rights.

Tho he loved his brethren,
yet they hated him,
and manifested the most decided unbelief and contempt.

In his home life,
where all should have been at peace,
he was constantly confronted by envy and jealousy.

His labors were made unnecessarily severe
because he was willing and uncomplaining.

He did not fail nor become discouraged.

He lived above these difficulties,
as if in the light of God's countenance.

He did not retaliate when he was roughly used,

but bore insult patiently,

and in his human nature became an example
for all children and youth.

He endured the heat and the cold, the sun and the rain, of his native hills and valleys. {ST, August 6, 1896 par. 8}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118127
08/25/09 01:34 PM
08/25/09 01:34 PM
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What I understand meekness to be in relation to Christ's life. At all times we must be polite to others and never should have a spirit of anger or retaliation, even when our rights are violated. However, there are occasions when surrendering our rights or failing to point out abuse would only encourage a spirit of injustice in others. In this case you wouldn't be helping, but doing damage to, the person involved. That's why Jesus didn't keep silent in His trial. I think the Holy Spirit will guide us as to the correct behavior to pursue in each individual case.
An example taken from Ellen White's life:

"The very same thing you complain of in C. H. Jones, in reference to your book, was carried out in reference to 'Great Controversy' and 'Patriarchs and Prophets'. The Pacific Press violated their solemn promise to me that if I would take ten cents royalty, they would give wide sale to the book. They would have reduced the royalty still more, but warnings were given me that I was encouraging a spirit of injustice, and that it was my duty to guard not only my individual rights, but the rights of others. I was to take my stand firmly, and not to be swayed by men, however high their position, for their business transactions were not all directed by the Spirit of God. The Lord will vindicate only the truth, and all who practice injustice and double dealing God will judge." {1888 1382.1}


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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118134
08/25/09 04:55 PM
08/25/09 04:55 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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i realize you are trying to bring "balance" but i think studying His life would do that.

Quote:
He did not fail nor become discouraged.

He lived above these difficulties,
as if in the light of God's countenance.
these statements, seem to me, to be what should be highlighted.

even tho we claim to be christian we are all at different levels or stages of understanding, we all have limited vision, when it comes to the character of God, and so fail in our treatment of our fellowman, not to mention everything else.

knowing how Jesus reacted, once we get over the "i dont want to do that" laugh mentality, and how, can really help.

so, was Jesus weak for turning the other cheek, or did He know something we dont?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118158
08/25/09 08:47 PM
08/25/09 08:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: Why would you limit it to Jesus' life here on earth? Ellen White taught that we should study Jesus' example in both the OT and the NT. She wrote, "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}

T: [See Bible quotes below]:

Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Mar 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Teresa, you appear to be agreeing with me. If so, then I'd say a celebration is in order.

yay yay yay

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118160
08/25/09 09:04 PM
08/25/09 09:04 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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we are agreeing that the scriptures, start to finish, testified of a Savior from our predicament?

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118196
08/26/09 04:39 PM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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I thought we were agreeing on the following: "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118226
08/27/09 04:30 AM
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teresaq  Offline OP
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did you know that there are only two fragments of the manuscript that that came from, at least that i know of?

in its context she is referring to kelloggs living temples pantheism.

she was stressing that God has "personality" which means that He has a form, a real solid Being, in Whose physical image we were created.

the two fragments:
Human talent and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. But guesswork has proved itself to be guesswork. Man cannot by searching find out God. This problem has not been given to human beings. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in His Word and in the life of His Son, the great Teacher. {6BC 1079.9}
Let men remember that they have a Ruler in the heavens, a God who will not be trifled with. He who puts his reason to the stretch in an effort to exalt himself and to delineate God, will find that he might far better have stood as a humble suppliant before God, confessing himself to be only an erring human being. {6BC 1079.10}
God cannot be understood by men. His ways and works are past finding out. In regard to the revelations that He has made of Himself in His Word, we may talk, but other than this, let us say of Him, Thou art God, and Thy ways are past finding out. {6BC 1079.11}
There is a knowledge of God and of Christ which all who are saved must have. "This is life eternal," Christ said, "that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." {6BC 1079.12}
The question for us to study is, What is truth--the truth for this time, which is to be cherished, loved, honored, and obeyed? The devotees of science have been defeated and disheartened in their effort to find out God. What they need to inquire is, What is truth (MS 124, 1903)? {6BC 1079.13}

The seventeenth chapter of John speaks plainly regarding the personality of God and of Christ, and of their relation to each other. "Father, the hour is come," Christ said: "glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee." [John 17:23, 3, 5-11 quoted.] Here is personality, and individuality (MS 124, 1903). {5BC 1145.10}

testimonies 8 devotes many, many, pages to the subject. kellogg became a trinitarian. trinitarianism supports spiritualism in all its forms. it denies that the Father has a form, "body and parts".

so, yes, in that regard, the ot, as well as Jesus, point out quite clearly that the Father, as well as the Son, possibly the Holy Spirit, definitely have "personality", form, "body and parts". we arent given much info on the Holy Spirit, and according to the statements above we are not to speculate.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118253
08/27/09 05:40 PM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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Teresa, thank you for sharing. Yes, I knew Ellen White was arguing against panhteism. But, do you think the following insight refers to more than the mere fact God is physical Being? "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}

PS - The following insights clearly say the Holy Spirit is as much a person as the Father is:

We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds. --Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . . {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118284
08/27/09 10:52 PM
08/27/09 10:52 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Teresa, thank you for sharing. Yes, I knew Ellen White was arguing against panhteism. But, do you think the following insight refers to more than the mere fact God is physical Being? "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}
i think ellen white added the extra two words in this instance to deal with the pantheism issue.

if you wish to add it to her other statements in other contexts that is your perogative.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118309
08/28/09 03:43 PM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaaq
i think ellen white added the extra two words in this instance to deal with the pantheism issue. if you wish to add it to her other statements in other contexts that is your perogative.

"All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}

So, yes, you believe this statement is limited to the pantheism issue. Thank you for answering my question.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118341
08/29/09 02:32 AM
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MM, she also said elsewhere that all that can be known of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son. So what we learn of God in Scripture was revealed in the life and character of His Son? Do you understand this? I'll try to illustrate by an example.

Say in one place she wrote, all that can be known about something (say "thing 1") was revealed by X and Y, and elsewhere she wrote, "All that can be known about thing 1 was revealed by X." This means that

1.All that can be known about thing 1 was revealed by X.
2.All that can be known about thing 1 was revealed by X and Y.

From this, by simple logic (which I hope makes sense to you) we can conclude that there may be things about thing 1 which X revealed but Y did not, but there cannot be anything that Y revealed about thing 1 that X did not.

So, in terms of the EGW quotes, it is a true statement that everything that can be known of God was revealed in the union of 1)the live and character of Jesus Christ in His humanity and 2)Scripture. It's also a true statement that everything that can be known of God was revealed in the life and character of Jesus Christ in His humanity.

I hope you can follow this. The key point is that, based the the EGW statements, there's nothing revealed about God in Scripture that was not revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Tom] #118380
08/30/09 01:08 AM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, prove your point. For example, when did Jesus command someone to stone a sinner to death? When did Jesus withdraw His protection and allow the forces of nature to cause death and destruction? When did Jesus withdraw His protection and permit evil angels to cause death and destruction? These are all things you believe Jesus did in the OT.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118391
08/30/09 03:39 AM
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teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, prove your point. For example, when did Jesus command someone to stone a sinner to death?
yes, when did He? and why didnt He?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118421
08/30/09 06:46 PM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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He did in the OT, but He didn't in the NT. Why? Because it wasn't His purpose. He came the first time as a "suffering sacrifice", but He will come a second and third time as a "conquering King".

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118425
08/30/09 07:01 PM
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teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
He did in the OT, but He didn't in the NT. Why? Because it wasn't His purpose. He came the first time as a "suffering sacrifice", but He will come a second and third time as a "conquering King".
and the difference is in our own minds, according to our sinful state....

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118448
08/31/09 02:49 AM
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Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
and the difference is in our own minds, according to our sinful state....

What do you mean?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118604
09/01/09 08:38 PM
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The reason for the death penalty in the OT:

Quote:
The Lord said of the children of Israel, "Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my Sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols, wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live." Because of continual disobedience, the Lord annexed penalties to the transgression of his law, which were not good for the transgressor, or whereby he should not live in his rebellion. {1SP 265.2}

By transgressing the law which God had given in such majesty, and amid glory which was unapproachable, the people showed open contempt of the great Lawgiver, and death was the penalty. {1SP 265.3}

"Moreover also, I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them. But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted. Then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them." {1SP 265.4}

The statutes and judgments given of God were good for the obedient. "They should live in them." But they were not good for the transgressor; for in the civil law given to Moses, punishment was to be inflicted on the transgressor, that others should be restrained by fear. {1SP 266.1}

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118613
09/01/09 11:11 PM
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teresaq  Offline OP
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Quote:
The statutes and judgments given of God were good for the obedient.
"They should live in them."

But they were not good for the transgressor;
for in the civil law given to Moses,
punishment was to be inflicted on the transgressor,
that others should be restrained by fear. {1SP 266.1}
wow!!
so that is the only way we will follow God and obey Him, not because His laws are good....but out of fear
Quote:
He looked with compassion upon men who were becoming corrupted, ruined, murdered, and lost, through choosing a ruler who chained them to his car as captives, and yet these slaves were so bewildered, so beguiled and deceived, that they were actually pleased with their slavery as they moved on in gloomy procession toward eternal ruin,--to death in which is no hope of life, toward night to which comes no morning. ...
yet He came anyway, to suffer nothing but abuse!!
Quote:
Such was the prospect upon which the world's Redeemer looked. What a horrible spectacle for the eyes of infinite purity to behold! Wherein can he behold his image? And yet God, the infinite One, "so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son [for such a world!], that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {RH, October 22, 1895 par. 5}
to turn the other cheek from birth til death.



Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118623
09/02/09 01:37 AM
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Quote:
wow!! so that is the only way we will follow God and obey Him, not because His laws are good....but out of fear

How did you come to this conclusion? We should obey Him out of love for Him, but the israelites were so rebellious that, "because of continual disobedience, the Lord annexed penalties to the transgression of his law."
Not always can God deal with people as He would like to. As Ellen White said, sometimes "in order to save the many, He must punish the few" (PP 326).

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118627
09/02/09 02:03 AM
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the israelites only? smile just them?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118651
09/02/09 01:12 PM
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May the Lord help us personally to not repeat their sins. But yes, we must discuss their situation when we speak of the death penalty in the OT.
Most of us experience three steps in our Christian growth. The first is “I serve God because I fear punishment if I don’t.” The second, “I serve God because it is the right thing to do.” And the third, “I serve God because I love Him.”
They were at step one (if not below it). As you said in another thread, God meets us where we are.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118669
09/02/09 05:04 PM
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Teresa, when you're not ignoring posts you are critical of them. Please tone down your comments. Thank you.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118670
09/02/09 05:07 PM
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Quote:
The statutes and judgments given of God were good for the obedient. "They should live in them." But they were not good for the transgressor; for in the civil law given to Moses, punishment was to be inflicted on the transgressor, that others should be restrained by fear. {1SP 266.1}

The infliction of civil punishment symbolized the fact that the inevitable result of sin is capital punishment not emotional anguish ending in death.

PS - Turning the other cheek has its place and time, but so does retributive justice. In judgment, Jesus will not turn the other cheek. Instead, He will execute justice.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118692
09/02/09 09:53 PM
09/02/09 09:53 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
May the Lord help us personally to not repeat their sins. But yes, we must discuss their situation when we speak of the death penalty in the OT.
Most of us experience three steps in our Christian growth. The first is “I serve God because I fear punishment if I don’t.” The second, “I serve God because it is the right thing to do.” And the third, “I serve God because I love Him.”
They were at step one (if not below it). As you said in another thread, God meets us where we are.
you might like Christian Maturity: The Seven Stages of Moral Development.

i personally think i was far below stage 1 when i started out. stage 7 and beyond is a beautiful goal, in keeping with this topic.

Quote:
And the third, “I serve God because I love Him.”
if i may add to that, without fearing any kind of punishment, nor for eternal reward.

i would do it even if there were no future life because it is the most satisfying way to live.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118709
09/03/09 01:35 AM
09/03/09 01:35 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
if i may add to that, without fearing any kind of punishment, nor for eternal reward.

Jean de Joinville tells a famous incident about a woman who carried in one hand a chafing dish of fire, and in the other a phial of water, that she might burn heaven and quench hell, lest in future any man should serve God merely for hope of the one or fear of the other.

This is interesting, but I'm not sure I would serve God if there was no heaven. And I'm not speaking about mansions or anything like that. I'm speaking about Christ, for Christ is heaven. If I had no hope of ever being with Him, I think it wouldn't be worth it to continue living.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118718
09/03/09 02:59 AM
09/03/09 02:59 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Amen!

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118773
09/04/09 05:46 PM
09/04/09 05:46 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
if i may add to that, without fearing any kind of punishment, nor for eternal reward.

Jean de Joinville tells a famous incident about a woman who carried in one hand a chafing dish of fire, and in the other a phial of water, that she might burn heaven and quench hell, lest in future any man should serve God merely for hope of the one or fear of the other.

This is interesting, but I'm not sure I would serve God if there was no heaven. And I'm not speaking about mansions or anything like that. I'm speaking about Christ, for Christ is heaven. If I had no hope of ever being with Him, I think it wouldn't be worth it to continue living.
i would because i know what sin is.

but i dont think your two thoughts go together. serving God is one thing.

living without Christ is another.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118774
09/04/09 05:55 PM
09/04/09 05:55 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:
The statutes and judgments given of God were good for the obedient. "They should live in them." But they were not good for the transgressor; for in the civil law given to Moses, punishment was to be inflicted on the transgressor, that others should be restrained by fear. {1SP 266.1}

The infliction of civil punishment symbolized the fact that the inevitable result of sin is capital punishment not emotional anguish ending in death.

PS - Turning the other cheek has its place and time, but so does retributive justice. In judgment, Jesus will not turn the other cheek. Instead, He will execute justice.
did you ever notice how little effect "retributive" judgment had on the israelites? this is just after the earth opened up and swallowed korah, etc., and after the 250 were "consumed".
Num 16:41 But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.

one would think that would have a lasting impression for at least a week, but that is how sin is. it blinds and deceives us.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118775
09/04/09 05:58 PM
09/04/09 05:58 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
i would because i know what sin is.

but i dont think your two thoughts go together. serving God is one thing.

living without Christ is another.


I, too, know what sin is. But what I mean is that if this earthly life was all there is, I would have put an end to it long ago.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118776
09/04/09 06:01 PM
09/04/09 06:01 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - Turning the other cheek has its place and time, but so does retributive justice. In judgment, Jesus will not turn the other cheek. Instead, He will execute justice.
have you also noticed that it is the cross that we will be studying for endless ages, not "retributive justice"?

Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song.

It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love.

In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven;

that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God;

and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto. {DA 19.2}

according to this, God, the Father, is just like Jesus, meek and lowly.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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