All life comes from God. Nobody, at any time, has life of themselves.



All life comes from God. Nobody, at any time, has life of themselves.

The main point I've been arguing against is that God will punishment people in the judgment by setting them on fire, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can suffer excruciating pain.

Let me explain the supernatural part a bit. The scene is described as a lake of fire. Given that beneath the crust of the earth is a sea of molten lava, and other parallels with the flood (remember that there was a great deal of water underneath the earth's crust before the flood) I'm led to think that the fire spoken of as a lake of fire will be molten lava. Now molten lava is extremely hot, and would kill someone in a matter of seconds. So the only way that they could be alive to suffer more excruciating pain would be for God to do something to keep them from being destroyed by the lava. So the supernaturally being kept alive here is of a different character than the sense in which God keeps people alive normally.

I want to make sure I am understanding correctly where people stand on this question. It is my understanding that, in regards to setting people on fire, like a torch, for days or hours at a time, that

1.This is what GC thinks.
2.Arnold is leaning towards this idea.
3.MM does not think this is what will happen, but isn't totally ruling it out.
4.Rosangela perhaps used to think this, but doesn't now. I'm not sure if she's ruled this out or not.

I can't recall if kland or teresaq are contributing to this thread, but I'm quite sure they don't have this idea. I think I've accounted for everyone who is engaged in this discussion.

Thanks in advance for your clarifications on my understanding of your positions here.

So we agree that the fact that despite having been dead for at least a thousand years, the lost will find themselves up and about, conscious, and alive enough to be able to suffer such mental anguish that they will weep and gnash their teeth until they die again, is caused by an act of power by God. This is in contrast to the lost causing this miracle to happen himself, or his circumstances naturally precipitating such a return from the dead. Agreed?

Furthermore, I think we agree that Satan, after having irrevocably separated himself from the Source of life, has been alive all this time - suffering some of the inevitable effects of sin for about 6000 years, and will continue to live until after he suffers the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" after many days - only by the life that God chooses to give him. Agreed?

My point is that whether it is by fire or mental anguish, Hell ain't no picnic. Weeping and gnashing of teeth, whether precipitated by physical pain or mental pain or both, is a bad thing. And whether the wicked is kept alive in a fire, or made alive to suffer mental anguish after a thousand years of respite, he is not alive in any natural or normal way.

In fact, if you think about it, it could be argued that any sinner, no matter the degree of sin, cannot be alive normally. The normal way to live is by perfect obedience to God's law. The only way for a sinner to live is by God supernaturally keeping him alive. Hence, Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That is correct.

Tom,

Regarding where I stand, you have not clearly outlined my position. It's a "close but not quite" kind of thing. First of all, I do not believe lava will play a major role in the fire. I believe what the Bible and Mrs. White have said about it, which is that there will be "fire and brimstone" and that "the elements shall melt with a fervent heat." If you call this "lava," fine, but I do not see it as having come from the depths of the earth, but rather the surface. As for the "lake of fire," this is, in my view, actual fire, i.e. flames, and not lava. According to Mrs. While, the oil reserves will contribute to the burning. I do not see the wicked as being immersed in molten rock so much as immersed in flame -- like the burning bush, and like the three Hebrew worthies in the fiery furnace.

The flame itself is more or less what Mike likes to call "the firelight of God's presence." God is a fire. The Bible says this, and also represents it. Of course, since Jesus as a human never appeared like a fire, you are free to disagree. That disagreement can in no wise remove the facts from the case. Jesus was the pillar of fire in the wilderness, according to inspiration. He was also the fire in the burning bush. The Holy Spirit was also the fire that came down upon the apostles at Pentecost.

Isaiah 43 tells us that the righteous will walk in this fire and not be burned. Revelation tells us we should be tried in this fire, like gold, that we may be pure. Those who are impure will find that this fire consumes them. Psalm 1 tells us "therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Isaiah 33:14 and onward describes those who will be able to dwell with the "everlasting burnings."

It's the same Fire, which throughout the Bible is said to be "eternal" and "everlasting." Only God is an eternal fire. The wicked are to perish in this Everlasting Fire.

The fire will be used for two purposes:

1) To cleanse the earth and universe of sinners; and
2) To cleanse the earth itself of all trace of sin.

This means that those oil reserves, there because of the flood, must be burned. It means that the satellites in the sky, the space station, etc., must be burned. Even items on the surface of the moon must be burned. It is likely that our entire atmosphere, which has been polluted, must be burned. From a scientific standpoint, God may need to provide additional oxygen to accommodate so much combustion! Nearly everything we see must be burned, and thoroughly so.

As I've said before, I do not have all of the answers to the "why" and "how" questions. But it is a fact that destruction and cleansing will take place.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Two things I'd like to clarify.

1.You believe the wicked will be set on fire, like a torch.
2.God is a literal fire.

I'm getting #2 from this statement:



You're saying that the wicked perish in the Everlasting Fire, which is God. You're also saying that the fire that burns the wicked is literal fire, and they are literally set on fire, like a torch. So I'm concluding that if, on the one hand, the Fire that burns the wicked is God, and if, on the other hand, the fire that burns the wicked is literal fire, then God is literal fire.

Either that or you are speaking of two different fires that simultaneously burn the wicked. Perhaps you have that in mind.

By saying, "You're saying" what I mean is "I understand you to be saying."

This is a rather long sentence, with a lot of assumptions in the middle of it, so just answering "yes" or "no" is apt to be misunderstood. I agree that the lost will be resurrected by God's power. I also agree that once alive, they will be conscious, and able to experience various things. I don't agree with the way you phrased these things. God gives them over to experience the results of the choices they have made. This is a way I'd put it.



You're asking if the lost resurrect themselves? If so, no, neither the lost or the wicked resurrect themselves.



This is affirming that Satan lives by life given by God, right? If so, I agree with this.



If the lost suffer as a result of the choices they have made, that's a much different issue to consider than if they suffer because someone sets them on fire.



I disagree that the wicked is made alive to suffer mental anguish. Also, why do you not think he is alive in a natural or normal way? Do you mean because he's been resurrected? Or did you have something else in mind?



You could look at it this way. And when God quits protecting the lost person from the effects of sin, he dies.

This is a different point than the one I was making, however, which has to do with the fact that fire consumes a person, and causes his death. Something analogous would be if God made someone to suffer by drowning him, but the drowning took hours or days to occur, instead of minutes. So God supernaturally allowed the person to "breath" underwater, or at least not die, so the person could suffer.

At any rate, the salient points are:

1.God wants the person to suffer.
2.God takes action for the specific person of causing the person to suffer.
3.God takes additional action to prevent the action He took in the point above to cause the death of the person being made to suffer, but to allow the person to suffer more.

I disagree with the whole concept that God wants anyone to suffer. I also think the idea that God would deliberately cause one to suffer for hours or days at a time by setting them on fire is barbarous and cruel beyond comprehension, and have no idea whatsoever how anyone who believes in Christ could have such a conception of God as to think He could possibly do such a thing.

Did I phrase it inaccurately? Is it not the case that you believe that "to experience the results of the choices they have made" is equivalent to "such mental anguish that they will weep and gnash their teeth until they die again"? Isn't that terrible mental anguish the result of their choices?


Do you also agree that Satan has lived all of these years completely separated from God, and therefore has enjoyed no pleasure whatsoever?


But they suffer nothing during the thousand years. God, by His divine power, causes events that result in their suffering to the point of eternal death. Isn't that what you've been saying all along?


Will not the wicked, every single one, suffer mental anguish? And are not the wicked, every single one, able to suffer such mental anguish because God raised them from the dead?

Once God makes one of the lost again, is there any hope that he can avoid the mental anguish? I don't think so. Therefore, by raising the lost from the dead, God is guaranteeing that the lost will suffer mental anguish to the point of eternal death.


The reason the wicked being alive is neither natural nor normal, is because he is alive while being separated from God. The natural, normal consequence of being separated from Life is death. Yet, there will be, and there are many now, who are separated from God, yet are not dead.


Isn't separation from God one of the effects of sin? And when one is separated from God, how can he have life? He can't. But the lost are able to "experience the results of the choices they have made" because God keeps them alive long enough to do so.


Separation from God, the life Giver, causes death. But the lost will live long enough, some of them for many days, to suffer. You believe that, don't you?


1. Doesn't God want the sinner to experience the results of the choices he has made? Doesn't that cause lots of suffering?
2. Doesn't God specifically raise the wicked from the dead, knowing the inevitable suffering to follow?
3. That's what God is going to do by raising the wicked from the dead, right? If He wanted to minimize suffering, He could easily leave them dead.


Then why will He raise the wicked dead? Suffering is inevitable at that point.


Yet you believe that God would deliberately cause one to suffer for hours or days at a time by waking them from the dead, and having them experience mental anguish to the point of eternal death. Right?

Regarding GC's analysis of your position on sin, I wouldn't put it his way, but neither do I believe your way. It seems that you believe sin is bad, and will cause suffering and death, but not as much suffering as being burned. So, the martyrs who died on the stake will have suffered more than the eternally lost. I disagree. I think the suffering of the wicked will exceed any physical pain possible.

Tom,

On this point, the Bible appears too clear to be misunderstood.

God is a great many things. The Bible says God is love. It also says God is eternal, God is one, God is a consuming fire, God is light, etc. Jesus said "I AM the way, the truth and the life." We could add many things here. So when I speak of God being a fire, note that I am speaking of literal fire, but I am not reducing God to merely this, for God is all of the above, and more, combined.

Hebrews 12:29 says plainly that God is a consuming fire. The word "fire" in Greek means simply that: Fire, flames, or fiery. It is the exact same Greek work used in the following contexts:


To repeat that the "worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" three times is significant. The Bible never repeats like this without purpose. What is more, these are Jesus' own words. Jesus Himself gave us this repetition. Once again, the word for "fire" here is the identical word used in Hebrews 12:29.

It is also the same word used throughout the book of Revelation with one single exception: the "breastplates of fire" uses another Greek word referring to the color of fire: fiery, shining like fire.

Thus, it is undeniable that God has referred to Himself as being a fire. Ellen White tells us that it is this fire which will destroy the wicked--the Fire of God.


The above is what Mike has almost quaintly termed the "firelight of God's glory." God is light. God is fire. Betwixt the two of them, the wicked will not stand in His presence, but will be consumed. Don't ask me how--the Bible doesn't say. We don't know if God exudes pure, combustible oxygen, and the light of His countenance provides spark, or if God is simply so hot, that the light emanating from Him is like that of the sun concentrated through a huge magnifying glass...we simply do not know the mechanism. He is God. His power should not be irreverently spoken of. As God chose not to touch the bush with His Fire in the wilderness, it would seem He can choose to preserve in spite of the flames. It is exactly this that allows the righteous to exist in His presence.

Again, I have never attempted to provide an answer as to the mechanism for the fire, other than to say there will be literal fire. I have never said "like a torch." I do not know what it will be like, and I do not believe any of us does. I do know that just as Heaven will exceed our imaginations for glory, hell will exceed our imaginations for its awfulness. Our senses are rather dull now. Following a thousand years in Heaven, the senses will have dramatically increased in acuity and perception. Hell will not be pleasant for anyone. There will still be tears. But after hell, God will wipe those away.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.