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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120774
10/21/09 10:53 PM
10/21/09 10:53 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm going to cross post this, because it deals with many of the same issues being discussed in this thread.

Yes, God punishes and destroys the wicked. That's stated many times. The disagreement isn't of this, but over how this works. Is the punishment arbitrary? Or is it a consequence of sin? Is the destruction arbitrary? Or is it a consequence of the choices the wicked have made?

Or, to ask the question another way, how does the destruction work? Here's how I think it works.

Sin causes us to believe things about God which are not true. This is seen in Adam and Eve's behavior after they sinned. God had not changed in His attitude toward them; He still loved them, just as much as before. But sin changed *them*. They ran and hid from God. They had become deathly afraid of Him, even though He had given them no reason to. Sin made them act irrationally.

This impact of sin is unavoidable. It happened to Christ on the cross. Christ felt doomed. He felt lost, abandoned, without hope. But God had not changed. God still loved Christ, as much as ever. In fact, far from abandoning His Son, God was suffering with His Son. He left heaven to be close to Him. God and the angels were there at Calvary. God was crucified with Christ.

But Christ couldn't sense these things. Instead, His sense was of being abandoned. This is what sin does to one.

(Something important to note is that Christ was able to overcome this effect of sin by faith. He died triumphantly, convinced in His Father's goodness, regardless of His inability to see through the portals of the tomb.)

If God did nothing to help us, sin would cause us to separate from God, who alone is the source of life, and we would perish. For example, "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."(DA 764)

So God sends us light, in order to save us from the death of sin. This is how God saves us, and how He destroys us. If the light is heeded, it is for our salvation. If it is resisted, it is for our destruction.

Consider Pharaoh. Scripture says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The SOP makes it clear that God did so by sending Him light. The hardening of the heart took place as Pharaoh sent Him light. So God "hardened" his heart. How? By being nice to Him.

That's the same way God destroys. The principles of mercy, kindness, and love are the means by which God destroys, just as these were the principles by which God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Actually, hardening Pharaoh's heart is how God destroyed him. When a person's heart becomes totally hardened, the person is lost. At the judgment, the person won't be able to stand the full revelation of God's character, which is His kindness, mercy and love.

So what God does is to give us His mercy, kindness, and love in small doses, which is healing for us, if we respond. By this means God is able to save us from sin, and prepare us to meet Him in His full glory, which is the fullness of His kindness, mercy and love.

If we refuse His kindness, mercy, and love now, we won't be able to stand it in the hereafter. We won't want to have anything to do with God, or those who love Him, and will voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven. We will judge ourselves.

The glory of God, *who is love*, will destroy us. It doesn't seem to me that you ever recognized the import of the "who is love" part. If the issue were a physical one, having to do with radiant light, the "who is love" part wouldn't fit in. But the real issue has to do with God's character. The preceding sentence says, "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire." This is talking about character.

The whole Great Controversy is about character. The character of God is under dispute. God vindicates His character through Jesus Christ. How we respond to the revelation of God's character is what fixes our destiny.

Quote:

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

...Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice.(GC 542-543)



Not responding to the revelation of God's character is what fixes the destiny. If we don't respond to that revelation here, we won't be able to respond to it in the hereafter.

God reveals His character through Jesus Christ; His kindness, mercy, and love; His goodness. This is how He destroys.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120775
10/21/09 10:56 PM
10/21/09 10:56 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Many of his ideas remind me of A. Graham Maxwell's ideas, if you're familiar with him. I don't know if there is any connection there or not; perhaps MM knows.
If this is the Maxwell who wrote the book "Your Bible and You," I do not accept his theology.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Green Cochoa] #120777
10/21/09 11:07 PM
10/21/09 11:07 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think the author of the book you referenced is his father. Just out of curiosity, what did you disagree with?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120782
10/21/09 11:35 PM
10/21/09 11:35 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
I disagree, rather strongly, with his spiritually-lethargic attitude toward the sacredness and importance of accuracy in the Word of God. The philosophy that says all Bible translations were created equal, which has also been adopted by our General Conference on account of Maxwell, is a very specious one originated by the devil himself who has also been putting his perversions into the modern translations which the church makes equal with the purer ones. In a different age, martyrs would die for the purity of the Word of God; but Maxwell would have us believe that any Bible is fine.

I will never exchange my KJV for a Living Bible, a Bible in Basic English, or an NIV. According to Maxwell, they're all equal.

In my view, this was the start of the "modern theology" which we see in the church today. People have been reading specious Bible versions long enough now that they have been subtly indoctrinated into a new way of thinking. Instead of claiming all Bible versions were equal, our church should have been sounding the alarm at the compromises made in the modern versions.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120795
10/22/09 02:15 AM
10/22/09 02:15 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Quoting Ty, therefore, hasn’t been helpful since his insights do not answer my question – What will cause resurrected sinners to die?

T: I think you're concerned about the wrong things, MM. The real important issues, the spiritual ones, it doesn't look like you are even considering.

What is so spiritual about being resurrected from the dead and forced to revisit your sins? I suspect it stopped being spiritual the moment they refused to embrace the truth as it is in Jesus. When you divorce truth and Jesus from the picture it stops being spiritual and starts being carnal.

You still haven’t answered my question - What will cause resurrected sinners to die?

Quote:
M: I realize you believe God arbitrarily prevents sinners from suffering and dying the moment they sin – but what does He do to prevent it?

T: You asked this on the other thread.

I assume you’re referring to Jesus bearing their sin and guilt. If not, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Quote:
T: Sin always has a negative impact.

M: Smokers experience a genuine sense of relief and euphoria when they indulge their sin.

T: What I said is that it is not possible to sin without there being a negative impact.

True, sin eventually yields negative results; if not here then hereafter. Sometimes, like firewood, it burns twice – before and after judgment. But not always. Some people die before they suffer the negative effects of smoking.

Quote:
M: You seem to underestimate the hardening effect of the “deceitfulness of sin”.

T: Wow! That's ironic!! Indeed, I agree that not recognizing the "sinfulness of sin," is the area of disagreement. But I'm not the one claiming that one can sin without there being a negative impact.

I see a difference between the “deceitfulness of sin” and the “sinfulness of sin”. Do you?

Quote:
M: Remember, the inevitable result of sin is suffering during judgment eventually ending in death.

T: You say to "remember" this, but I don't see the connection between this and your assertion that people can sin with impunity.

M: Above you wrote, “. . . the burden of sin being spoken of is not the burden of sin the wicked will experience at the judgment”.

T: I'm not following your thought here.

I hear you saying the reason sinners do not suffer and die the moment they sin is because Jesus bears their sin and guilt; otherwise, their sin and guilt would cause them to suffer (so far you have denied it will also cause them to die). You do not believe the sin and guilt Jesus bears now is equivalent to judgment. Which means people can sin with impunity since the actual penalty for sin is suffering ending in death.

Quote:
M: Please explain how the presence of God consumes sin in the following passage: “To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you.” Sin, as you say, is not a sentient being, so how can the presence of God consume it?

T: First of all, not all things which can be consumed are sentient beings, so your question doesn't really make sense. Regarding what the MB quote means, it's similar to the DA quote, which discusses this in more detail:

Only the pure in heart could abide in Christ's presence, because His presence would make manifest to men their sin. It is this which the wicked cannot stand. In the judgment, there will be nowhere to hide. Hence the desire to be destroyed, rather than look at the face of the One who redeemed them.

What else besides sin and sinners does the character of God consume? And, even if the wicked could hide from the presence of Jesus, do you think it would make any difference? Is the physical presence of God necessary for the wicked to suffer according to your description? Also, what will be the cause of their death?

Quote:
M: The idea that the reason we do not experience crushing guilt when we sin is because Jesus bears it for us is difficult to believe, especially as it relates to evil angels.

T: ???

What do you think God does to prevent evil angels from suffering and dying when they sin? Certainly you don’t believe it’s because He bears their sin and guilt, right? I suppose you’ll answer this question in more detail when you finish addressing the rest of my post.

Quote:
M: Not all sinning results in misery or sorrow. For example, how bad do people feel who have no idea they are missing out on the blessings of Sabbath-keeping?

T: Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b, page 3)

How do you describe sins of ignorance?

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #120796
10/22/09 02:28 AM
10/22/09 02:28 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Many of his ideas remind me of A. Graham Maxwell's ideas, if you're familiar with him. I don't know if there is any connection there or not; perhaps MM knows.

Ty was toying with the ideas Dr. Maxwell recorded in "Servants or Friends". His book caused a lot discussion. Around that time I remember Ty asking and answering the question, "Did Satan cause the flood that killed millions of men, women, and children? I am reminded of the mad scientist who accidentally blew himself up."

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120798
10/22/09 03:32 AM
10/22/09 03:32 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: asygo
That sounds like God has been actively doing something to keep sinners alive. For example, God has been actively keeping Satan alive all this time, instead of letting sin's fatal effects take hold.

Yes. DA 764 brings this out.

Could this life-giving God who has kept Satan alive for thousands of years be the same life-giving God who will keep him alive for "many days" while he suffers the revelation of his sins during the Judgment? Or is there another source of life that will keep Satan alive for "many days" before finally being destroyed?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120799
10/22/09 03:40 AM
10/22/09 03:40 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
MM:Where Ty disagrees with the SOP is where I disagree with Ty.

T: This is rather a pointless comment. It appears to presuppose, for one thing, that you are can perfectly interpret the SOP, or, at a minimum, that you're a lot better at this than Ty is.

But is that any worse than your presupposition that you can interpret God's actions, commands, and motives better than Moses, Elijah, and EGW? They all say that God did or commanded things that caused destruction and loss of life, which you deny that God did. Examples: capital punishment for certain Israelite apostasies during the Exodus, executing Baal's prophets. The Bible and SOP say that God did or commanded those things, but you say He did not.

I'd rather question Ty than Moses.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: asygo] #120819
10/22/09 03:37 PM
10/22/09 03:37 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
MM:Where Ty disagrees with the SOP is where I disagree with Ty.

T: This is rather a pointless comment. It appears to presuppose, for one thing, that you are can perfectly interpret the SOP, or, at a minimum, that you're a lot better at this than Ty is.

A:But is that any worse than your presupposition that you can interpret God's actions, commands, and motives better than Moses, Elijah, and EGW?


This question contains a false assumption. I have made no claim in regards to my abilities to interpret better than those you mentioned, and have no such presupposition.

Quote:
They all say that God did or commanded things that caused destruction and loss of life, which you deny that God did. Examples: capital punishment for certain Israelite apostasies during the Exodus, executing Baal's prophets. The Bible and SOP say that God did or commanded those things, but you say He did not.


They say things like:

1.God killed Saul.
2.God moved David to number Israel.
3.God stirred up trouble in David's house.
4.God sent lying spirits to Ahab.
5.God was provoked against Job.
6.God sent fiery serpents against the Israelites.
7.God destroyed Jerusalem.

I've made the point that Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits. This is simply a principle of Scripture interpretation. I've not denied anything the Bible or SOP says. Of course, you might interpret what I've said that way, just as I might interpret something you've said that way, but I've made no such claims, and my personal conviction is that Ellen White was divinely inspired, as were the Bible writers.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120823
10/22/09 04:24 PM
10/22/09 04:24 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits.

That's different from "Scripture always presents God as doing that which He permits."

Our difference lies in when to apply the principle. The Bible/SOP say that God wanted Elijah to kill the prophets of Baal. I believe God commanded it. You believe God didn't want it, but merely permitted it, right?

Ditto for the golden calf.

Ditto for Kadesh.

Ditto for the Amalakites and Saul.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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