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Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #121062
10/27/09 10:56 PM
10/27/09 10:56 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me!" We see from the cross what the punishment for sin looks like.

Only the righteous have the advantage of this, however. The wicked receive their "recompense" which is due them. Their punishment did not fall on Christ, for they did not choose Christ.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #121067
10/28/09 01:15 AM
10/28/09 01:15 AM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Satan was wrong. God has every right, and then some, to bring justice. The law demands death for sinners. The law makes no allowance at all in this regard. We are all on probationary time, Satan included.

In the final justice, God also has the right to punish sinners proportionate to their deeds, Satan's and others' arguments notwithstanding. The righteous universe looking on will proclaim God's justice, righteousness, and mercy in so doing. In fact, they may marvel that God waited as long as He did to do it.


There are two ways of thinking of "justice" beings suggested. One way says that God leaves the sinner to reap the full result of his choice, (as per DA 764). The other suggestion is that God takes an arbitrary, cruel action (i.e. burning people alive) and does this to people He deems deserves it.

The idea that burning people alive is "just" has nothing to do with the justice which Jesus Christ taught and lived.

Quote:
T:Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me!" We see from the cross what the punishment for sin looks like.

R:Only the righteous have the advantage of this, however.


Actually, all do. Not all are saved, of course, but all benefit by the sacrifice of Christ.

Quote:
Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ.(DA 660)


Quote:
The wicked receive their "recompense" which is due them. Their punishment did not fall on Christ, for they did not choose Christ.


Before responding more fully, to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you, please elaborate on your thought here.

Quote:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8)


DA 107-108, which says that "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked" speaks of this verse. This is dealing with the revelation of God's character. To those who open their hearts to the truth, this is life. To those who refuse to do so, the revelation of God's character of love is death.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #121072
10/28/09 04:21 AM
10/28/09 04:21 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Tom,

It's back to the two goats: the scapegoat did not receive the same punishment as the one which was sacrificed. The scapegoat probably thought he was getting off the hook. His time had not yet come.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited;" so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. {FLB 213.4}


Notice how Mrs. White specifically says the following:

1. Satan will bear the punishment of his own sins.
2. Satan will bear the punishment of the sins committed by the saved.
3. Satan will suffer the "full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked."

Sounds like the following conclusions are sane:

1. Christ's death does not cover the wicked, for they are represented by the scapegoat and must suffer their own penalties.
2. The suffering for their sin is by fire.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #121074
10/28/09 01:46 PM
10/28/09 01:46 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
G: He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty.

k:Do you think he uttered imprecations correctly or incorrectly?

G: Satan was wrong. God has every right, and then some, to bring justice. The law demands death for sinners. The law makes no allowance at all in this regard. We are all on probationary time, Satan included.

In the final justice, God also has the right to punish sinners proportionate to their deeds, Satan's and others' arguments notwithstanding. The righteous universe looking on will proclaim God's justice, righteousness, and mercy in so doing. In fact, they may marvel that God waited as long as He did to do it.

So you are saying that Satan was wrong for saying what God did was "injustice and cruelty"? That if anyone else were doing the exact same thing, it would be considered unjust and cruel, but since God was doing it, the exact same thing, it was considered just and righteous without needing to be given any more thought.

Do you think the statement could allow for the idea that the actions were not coming from God? Or that the actions of removal of protection, of reaping the results, was under argument and was incorrectly being called against God?

Do you think that the idea that they may have marveled at God waiting so long implies that God was wrong for waiting so long or that they had a wrong concept of the character of God and what He did or didn't do? Do you think they may have been wrong for having that view?

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: kland] #121077
10/28/09 03:48 PM
10/28/09 03:48 PM
Tom  Offline
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GC, we don't believe in a limited atonement. That's an idea from Calvin. Our tradition is Armenian.

The statement I cited earlier, from DA 660, explained that to the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life. This demonstrates that Christ's death covers the wicked.

Here's another one from "The Desire of Ages":

Quote:
The words spoken in indignation, "To what purpose is this waste?" brought vividly before Christ the greatest sacrifice ever made,--the gift of Himself as the propitiation for a lost world. The Lord would be so bountiful to His human family that it could not be said of Him that He could do more. In the gift of Jesus, God gave all heaven. From a human point of view, such a sacrifice was a wanton waste. To human reasoning the whole plan of salvation is a waste of mercies and resources. Self-denial and wholehearted sacrifice meet us everywhere. Well may the heavenly host look with amazement upon the human family who refuse to be uplifted and enriched with the boundless love expressed in Christ. Well may they exclaim, Why this great waste?

But the atonement for a lost world was to be full, abundant, and complete. Christ's offering was exceedingly abundant to reach every soul that God had created. It could not be restricted so as not to exceed the number who would accept the great Gift.All men are not saved; yet the plan of redemption is not a waste because it does not accomplish all that its liberality has provided for. There must be enough and to spare. (DA 565)


From Scripture, a few texts which contradict the limited atonement idea are 1 John 2:1-2, Romans 5:18, 2 Cor. 5:14-15, and Isa. 44:22.

Regarding the scapegoat:

Quote:
Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.(EW 294)


Satan, like every other lost being who has refused Christ's offer of pardon, must bear the responsibility for what he has done. Since he created sin, his responsibility is greater than any others, but he doesn't bear anyone's sins in the sense of an atonement. You can't divide that penalty of sins between Christ and Satan. When Christ said, "Let the punishment fall on Me!" this punishment involved the sins of all.

Regarding the scapegoat, note from the EW quote that it's not only Satan's responsibility for what he's done to the righteous that's involved, but for what he's done to the wicked as well.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #121081
10/28/09 06:00 PM
10/28/09 06:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Regarding #121048, regarding the chronology, I think the suffering of the wicked takes place during the judgment, then the wicked die, then they are engulfed by flames. Regarding what I'm basing my chronology on, DA 764, GC 541-543, DA 107-108 are the primary passages, in connect with, of course, GC 672-673. I've tried to come up with a scenario which makes sense given all that's been written on the subject, not just the one passage in GC 672-673 (or the EW passage which was its precursor). Also, I've tried to bring to bear teachings we have regarding God's character, primarily the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Do you think 1, 4, and 6 describe the same thing, and that chronologically 4 and 6 belong with 1? Please note that I’ve renumbered the list to set apart 4. Other than 4 and 6 do you think the rest of her description is chronologically accurate?

Chronologically, where do you place 3 in relation to judgment? Does it happen before, during, or after judgment?

Chronologically, where do you place 5 in relation to judgment? Does it happen before, during, or after judgment?

1. “As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed . . . all behold the enormity of their guilt.”
2. “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . .”
3. “The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah . . . Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.”
4. “Fire comes down from God out of heaven.”
5. “The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.”
6. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds.”
7. “In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed.”

Let’s look at the passages you cited above as primary:

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Quote:
The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}

God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {GC 541.4}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Quote:
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Quote:
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Quote:
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. {GC 544.2}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. . . But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #121084
10/28/09 06:54 PM
10/28/09 06:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Do you believe God regulates the revelation of His character to yield intended results? If so, how does He regulate it? What do you think would be the result if He didn’t regulate it? Is human comprehension of God’s character necessary for the intended results to be realized? Did running and hiding from Jesus play a part in regulating the intended results?

T: I think "regulate" is a poor choice of words. "Regulate" makes me think of heat, or things like that. Not God's character. God's character is beautiful. It describes what God is like. So instead of asking, "Do you believe God regulates the revelation of His character to yield intended results?" I would ask something like this, "Do you think God reveals His character in such a way as to obtain a desired result?" My answer to this question is, of course. God reveals His character for the purpose of leading us to repentance. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. (Romans 2:4).

Do you think those times when divinity flashed through humanity, when Jesus was here in the flesh, may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character, to cause the death of those who rejected Jesus?

What do you think would have happened had Jesus not restricted the duration or intensity? Do you think running and hiding from Jesus played a part in preventing their death?

Also, in judgment, what do you think God will do to prevent His character from causing the wicked to die prematurely? Do you think it is necessary for God to subject the wicked to a full, unveiled, unrestricted revelation of His character for them to suffer and die?

Quote:
M: If it were possible to hide from God in judgment, would evil men and angels avoid suffering and death?

T: They could for that cause, but sin causes suffering and death in many ways, not just one. It's impossible for those who choose the law of sin, which is selfishness, to avoid suffering and death. Wherever sin is found, it is inevitable that there will be suffering and death.

M: How would hiding from God prevent them from suffering and dying if it were the only thing that caused suffering and death?

T: I take it you're asking how, if sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death, could running from the revelation of God's character prevent that from happening?

I asked, “If it were possible to hide from God in judgment, would evil men and angels avoid suffering and death?” To which you responded, “They could for that cause . . .” I assumed the “cause” you were referring to was God. That is, if the presence of God were the only cause of suffering and death, then, if it were it possible to hide from Him, suffering and death could be avoided.

Quote:
T: There's a couple difficulties I see with the question. One is is assumes that sin is the only think which causes sin and death, when what was said was that wherever sin exists it's inevitable that suffering and death will be present. A second difficulty is that you seem to be separating sin from the suffering/death that a revelation of God's character would effect, when sin is precisely the reason that the revelation of God's character has a negative impact on the wicked. Remember, the light of the glory of God (which is what we're talking about here, the revelation of His character) which gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked. God is good, so the revelation of His character is simply the revelation of His goodness. There's no reason while revealing goodness should harm anyone. This speaks to what a terrible thing sin is.

Do you think sin is the only thing that causes suffering and death in judgment?

Do you think the revelation of God’s character causes the wicked to suffer and die in judgment?

When do you think God’s character gives life to the righteous? Do you think it is what resurrects them? Or, do you think it gives them life afterward? If so, how does it differ from the life they already have?

Quote:
M: What does God do to keep them alive 1) during judgment, and 2) after judgment?

T: The "Ministry of Healing" discusses some of the things God does to enable people to live.

M: Please name them.

T: I'll name one. Causing our heart to beat.

Do you think it is necessary for God to cause their heart to beat 1) during judgment, and 2) after judgment? Do you think they would die if He didn’t? And, do you think they die because God stops causing their heart to beat?

Quote:
M: How can people separated from the source of life continue to live? Since they have cut themselves off from the source of life, what is keeping them alive? What brought them back to life? What keeps them alive during and after judgment?

T: “God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.”

M: Why do you think this insight answers my question?

T: Because it discusses what you're asking about.

Do you think the wicked are separated from God before, during, and after judgment? Do you think they are cut off from life? If so, who or what is keeping them alive?

Quote:
M: How, then, do you define death as it relates to the wicked? I’m not talking about suffering. I’m talking about death.

T: Of course a part of the second death is that they will stop thinking and lose consciousness forever.

M: Is “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever” your definition of death? Or, do you think blood and breath must also cease functioning?

T: I said this was a part of it. "Of course a part of the second death is that they will stop thinking and lose consciousness forever."

Yes, you did. However, you didn’t answer my question. Above you said God keeps sinners alive by causing their heart to beat. Do you think another part of why they die is because God stops causing their heart to beat?

Quote:
T: Regarding the role of revealing His character, the final chapter of "The Great Controversy" addresses this, the part I quoted for GC in regards to his question about every knee bowing and every tongue confessing. So that's an important part. Actually, that's the most important part. The whole Great Controversy has been about God's character. Every intelligent being must recognize that God has acted well throughout time.

Quote:
With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." (GC 671)

So this is one vital role it plays.

Do you think acknowledging the justice of God will cause sinners to “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever”? Do you think God will stop causing their heart to beat?

Quote:
T: Another role is discussed in GC 541-543, which discusses that the exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, as well as that heaven would be torture for them.

Do you think this will cause sinners to “stop thinking and lose consciousness forever”? Do you think God will stop causing their heart to beat?

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Mountain Man] #121085
10/28/09 07:20 PM
10/28/09 07:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
T: Satan, like every other lost being who has refused Christ's offer of pardon, must bear the responsibility for what he has done. Since he created sin, his responsibility is greater than any others, but he doesn't bear anyone's sins in the sense of an atonement.

Lucifer didn't create sin. It originated with him, but he didn't create it. "Sin is the transgression of the law. This is the only definition of sin. Without the law there can be no transgression. {7BC 951.3}} Sin is the result of FMAs breaking the law of God.

Quote:
T: You can't divide that penalty of sins between Christ and Satan. When Christ said, "Let the punishment fall on Me!" this punishment involved the sins of all. Regarding the scapegoat, note from the EW quote that it's not only Satan's responsibility for what he's done to the righteous that's involved, but for what he's done to the wicked as well.

Jesus earned the right on the cross to own the sin of the world. With it comes the responsibility of eliminating it. It rests with Jesus to eliminate sin. The elimination of sin requires the death of sinners. This Jesus accomplishes by destroying evil men and angels in the lake of fire. The sins of the saved are eliminated with Satan. No sinners means no sin.

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Mountain Man] #121088
10/28/09 08:02 PM
10/28/09 08:02 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
M:Do you think 1, 4, and 6 describe the same thing, and that chronologically 4 and 6 belong with 1?


No.

Quote:
Please note that I’ve renumbered the list to set apart 4. Other than 4 and 6 do you think the rest of her description is chronologically accurate?


I don't think I'd put it that way. I've written out what I think will happen.

Quote:
Chronologically, where do you place 3 in relation to judgment? Does it happen before, during, or after judgment?


As I wrote before, I think it's a part of the judgment.

Quote:
Chronologically, where do you place 5 in relation to judgment? Does it happen before, during, or after judgment?

1. “As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed . . . all behold the enormity of their guilt.”
2. “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . .”
3. “The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah . . . Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.”
4. “Fire comes down from God out of heaven.”
5. “The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.”
6. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds.”
7. “In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed.”


I think all of this is describing the judgment. I think the last thing that happens is item 7.

Quote:
Let’s look at the passages you cited above as primary:

"By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}"

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


They express a similar principle, but the DA statement is a broader statement.

Quote:
"The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}

God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {GC 541.4}"

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


1 is included in this.

Quote:
"A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}"

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


Same answer.

Quote:

"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}"

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Quote:
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. {GC 544.2}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?

Quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. . . But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Do you think this describes the same thing as 1?


I'll lump these together. I think these are describing general principles which should be applied to the study of the judgment, including item 1, which you're asking about.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Mountain Man] #121089
10/28/09 08:29 PM
10/28/09 08:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Quote:
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

Earlier you said the “form” of the Father, in the passage above, refers to the attributes of His character. Beholding His character, you said, would have caused Ellen to die. Three things:

1. “He who contemplates God's glory and infinite love, will have humble views of himself, but by beholding the character of God, he will be changed into His divine image. {TMK 175.4} Why do you think beholding His “form” would have killed her?
2. “By beholding the character of Christ you will become changed into His likeness. {AG 299.2} Why didn’t beholding the “form” of Jesus kill her?
3. “He sent His Son into the world, that through His taking the human form and nature, humanity and divinity combined in Him would elevate man in the scale of moral value with God. {1SM 340.3} “It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man . . . {4aSG 115.3} If, as you say, “form” means “character”, then, according to these passages, Jesus took the sinful character of man.

Quote:
But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. {DA 107.4}

You believe Lucifer sinned willfully in the presence of God. Why do you think he was able to do so without being destroyed? Also, who or what do you is preventing evil angels from reaping what they have sown and dying now?

Quote:
Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. . . In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed. {GC 673}

Ellen wrote “flames” will destroy the wicked. Some die right away, some after many days. But you say sin or the character of God or a combo of both will destroy the wicked. Elsewhere Ellen wrote:

Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

Quote:
While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.

In the passage above she says the destroying fire that engulfs the earth is the power of the second death. You said the fire that destroys the earth and cremates the wicked will not come until after the wicked taste and consume the second death in judgment.

But here Ellen said the power of the fire of the second death is the same fire that engulfs the earth in flames and reduces everything and everyone to ashes.

She also said the righteous escape the fire of the second death by dwelling safely in the New Jerusalem. This wouldn't make sense if, as you say, the fire of the second death is the character of God.

Quote:
But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. {DA 753.1} the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face{DA 755.1}

You say the wicked will experience anguish of soul for the same reasons Jesus did on the cross; however, the following quote, contrasted with the ones above, paint a different picture: “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . . {GC 667.2} Jesus suffered because His Father hid His face; whereas, the wicked suffer because He doesn’t hide His face. How can you say they will experience soul anguish for the same reasons?

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