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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121166
10/30/09 06:20 PM
10/30/09 06:20 PM
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SDA
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Thoughts and decisions cannot be literally transferred from one being to another. How, then, do you think Jesus bears our sin and guilt? How does He prevent our sinful thoughts and feelings from crushing the life out of us now?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121168
10/30/09 06:40 PM
10/30/09 06:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Earlier you said the “form” of the Father, in the passage above, refers to the attributes of His character. Beholding His character, you said, would have caused Ellen to die.
T: Please quote what I wrote.
M:Referring to the passage above I asked, “Do you think the glory of the form of the person of God refers to His righteous traits of character rather than to the form of His person?” You replied, “I believe it refers to God's traits of character, yes.”
Do you wish to change your mind? No, my wish is that you quote me and represent my thoughts accurately. You should be able to see there's a difference between "the glory of the form" and "the form." I said the glory of the form of God's person refers to His traits of character. I didn't say what you claimed I said, that His form referred to His traits of character. Please consider the following passage: “In the beginning, man was created in the likeness of God, not only in character, but in form and feature. {GC 644.3} Note that she contrasts form and character. I agree with what she wrote. Again, you wrote – ““I believe [“form” in this passage] refers to God's traits of character, yes.” No, I didn't. I wrote, "it" (the "glory of the form") referred to attributes of God's character.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121169
10/30/09 06:45 PM
10/30/09 06:45 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thoughts and decisions cannot be literally transferred from one being to another. How, then, do you think Jesus bears our sin and guilt? How does He prevent our sinful thoughts and feelings from crushing the life out of us now? From MB 116: We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. But the sinless One has taken our place; though undeserving, He has borne our iniquity. How would out guilt crush us? Well, think about when you've felt guilty. What did you feel like? To fully realize our sin would feel like that, only worse. We couldn't bear it. It would crush us. Christ on the cross fully bore our guilt. A description of what He passed through is written out in "Calvary" from "The Desire of Ages." Here's a portion: Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. (DA 753) In order for us to be saved from the crushing burden of guilt, we must be saved from sin. To be saved from sin, we need to renounce sin and embrace Christ. The cross is the means by which this takes place, provided we do not resist: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#121170
10/30/09 07:12 PM
10/30/09 07:12 PM
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M: Do you think those times when divinity flashed through humanity, when Jesus was here in the flesh, may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character, to cause the death of those who rejected Jesus?
T: I don't think of it this way.
M: Here’s what you wrote about it earlier on this thread: “[Divinity flashing through humanity] did have the effect of causing suffering. They ran away from Christ's presence. Also the divinity flashing through humanity may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character to cause their death. God wasn't intending that they should die.” So, as you see, the thought at least crossed your mind.
T: What post is this? I imagine I was responding to some question you asked. I asked, Why didn’t divinity flashing through humanity have the same effect then that it will have on resurrected sinners in judgment? Does God ration or regulate or whatever word you prefer His character so it doesn’t cause sinners to die prematurely? M: What do you think would have happened had Jesus not restricted the duration or intensity? Do you think running and hiding from Jesus played a part in preventing their death?
T: I think these questions are rather odd, but the following may shed some light on what you're asking:
M: Please bear in mind you brought it up first.
T: That seems unlikely to me. This way of thinking is a lot more yours than mine. It seems likely to me you brought it up, and I was responding to some question of yours. See above. Also, see 120989 (after question #25). M: Also, in judgment, what do you think God will do to prevent His character from causing the wicked to die prematurely?
T: Why would this matter? Why are you asking this?
M: It matters because if they die prematurely it wouldn’t serve the intended purpose. I’m asking because I don’t know what you believe. If, as you say, God must work now to prevent His character from causing sinners to die, it begs the question – How does He prevent them from reaping the results of sin?
T: Please look at DA 764. This is where this is discussed. “The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.” (DA 764) This doesn’t explain what He does to prevent it. M: Do you think it is necessary for God to subject the wicked to a full, unveiled, unrestricted revelation of His character for them to suffer and die?
T: Anyway, to answer your question, it's not necessary for God to do anything specific to cause the wicked to suffer and die.
M: I hear you saying God will do nothing that will result in them suffering and dying. Is that what you believe?
T: Are you concluding this from the fact that I said, "It's not necessary for God to do anything specific to cause the wicked to suffer and die."? Or from something else I wrote? I would say God is not responsible for the wicked's suffering and dying. I'm not sure what you mean by saying "God will do nothing." For example, if God did not give a person life to begin with, a person wouldn't suffer or die. I'm certainly not saying anything like that. Some of your questions lead me to think you think along these lines. What do you mean by – “It's not necessary for God to do anything specific to cause the wicked to suffer and die.” Do you mean God will indeed do something that will cause them to suffer and die? M: I could believe God will do nothing if He left them dead in the grave. But He doesn’t. Instead, He resurrects them, forces them to revisit their sins, prevents them from dying prematurely, and then distracts them from killing each other by raining down and raising up fire, at which point they suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness.
T: He distracts them from killing each other by raining down and raising up fire? You certainly have a fertile mind! One could just as easily argue that God is responsible for the suffering and death that exists before the resurrection as well, since everyone receives life from God in the here and now just as much as in the resurrection. Is that what you believe? Also, do you agree God does the following: 1. He resurrects them 2. Forces them to revisit their sins 3. Prevents them from dying prematurely 4. Intervenes as they attempt to kill each other 5. Allows fire to burst forth and engulf the planet M: I asked, “If it were possible to hide from God in judgment, would evil men and angels avoid suffering and death?” To which you responded, “They could for that cause . . .” I assumed the “cause” you were referring to was God. That is, if the presence of God were the only cause of suffering and death, then, if it were it possible to hide from Him, suffering and death could be avoided.
T: "So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable." The problem isn't God.
M: I hear you saying neither the character of God nor the radiant firelight of His person and presence will cause them to suffer or to die. Is that what you believe?
T: You're getting this from my saying, "The problem isn't God"? Yes. Do you think God just being God will cause them to suffer and die, that all He has to do is just show up and sinners will naturally start suffering and dying? M: When do you think God’s character gives life to the righteous? Do you think it is what resurrects them? Or, do you think it gives them life afterward? If so, how does it differ from the life they already have?
T: "He who has the Son, has life." This happens when one believes. Eternal life starts before the resurrection.
M: If they are already alive, why, then, is it necessary for God to resurrect them?
T: Are you doubting that eternal life begins now? I do not think the dead are alive now. Do you? M: Does the same thing apply to the death of the wicked? That is, since they’re dead, why is it necessary for God to resurrect them?
T: What? Since they're dead, why it is necessary for God to resurrect them? I think both the righteous and the wicked are dead now. Do you? M: Again, in what sense does the firelight of God’s glory give life to the righteous and take life from the wicked?
T: In the sense explained in DA 108. “The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} Since you believe this is referring to the character of God, when do you think it imparted life to the righteous? And, when do you think it will slay the wicked? What does it do to kill them? How does it kill them? M: Do you think it is necessary for God to cause their heart to beat 1) during judgment, and 2) after judgment? Do you think they would die if He didn’t? And, do you think they die because God stops causing their heart to beat?
T: MM, these questions don't make sense to me. For example, "Do you think they would die if He didn’t?" It sounds from this question that you are thinking after the resurrection human beings won't have hearts that beat? Or you have some doubt about this? Am I understanding you correctly?
M: I’m trying to figure out the cause of death.
T: Good luck! I meant I’m trying to figure out what you think about it. I believe the radiant firelight of God’s person and presence will cause them to suffer and die. 1. Does sin cause their heart to stop beating, their minds to stop thinking, their lungs to stop breathing, or what? From this I can work backward and ascertain what God does to prevent them from reaping the results of sin now and in judgment.
2. Also, if sinners come out of the grave in the same state they entered it, what about the ones who died of organ failure? How can those same organs support life in judgment?
3. Jesus was perfectly healthy, nevertheless, His frail and fragile frame required supernatural aid to live long enough to accomplish His work on the cross. Do you agree?
4. Why do you think resurrected sinners, especially those who have diseased and dilapidated organs, will be able to live long enough to revisit millions of sins, one at a time, and suffer like Jesus did?
5. Will God keep them alive supernaturally?
T: I think this calls for some common sense. Take a person who was killed by being chopped up into little pieces. Clearly they would have to be raised in their condition before they were chopped up. Someone who died of organ failure would have to be resurrected in a condition where the organs were functioning well enough to live. A person who fell into a coma and then died some time after that would have to be raised in a pre-coma condition. And so on. I hear you saying God will resurrect them in a state sufficient to naturally survive revisiting millions of sins, one at a time, without dying prematurely and without supernatural aid. Is that what you believe? If so, why did Jesus require supernatural aid?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121171
10/30/09 08:01 PM
10/30/09 08:01 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I asked, Why didn’t divinity flashing through humanity have the same effect then that it will have on resurrected sinners in judgment? Does God ration or regulate or whatever word you prefer His character so it doesn’t cause sinners to die prematurely? I think thinking of terms of God's rationing or regulating things isn't the right way of looking at it. I think GC 541-543 explains the principles well. The problem is sin, not God. Those who choose sin do not want to be around God, nor those who espouse His principles. To do so would be torture to them. This is what the bottom line is. The wicked voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven. I think the right way to consider what's happening is to think in terms of how sin ruins one's character. M: It matters because if they die prematurely it wouldn’t serve the intended purpose. I’m asking because I don’t know what you believe. If, as you say, God must work now to prevent His character from causing sinners to die, it begs the question – How does He prevent them from reaping the results of sin?
T: Please look at DA 764. This is where this is discussed.
“The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.” (DA 764) This doesn’t explain what He does to prevent it.
Again, I think this isn't focusing on the real problem, which is the ruining of the character that sin does. DA 764 discusses this. What do you mean by – “It's not necessary for God to do anything specific to cause the wicked to suffer and die.” You said, "M: I hear you saying God will do nothing that will result in them suffering and dying. Is that what you believe?" So I explained that it's not necessary for God to do something specific to cause the wicked to suffer and die. Do you mean God will indeed do something that will cause them to suffer and die? No. Is that what you believe? Also, do you agree God does the following:
1. He resurrects them Yes. 2. Forces them to revisit their sins No. 3. Prevents them from dying prematurely Perhaps. 4. Intervenes as they attempt to kill each other No. 5. Allows fire to burst forth and engulf the planet Yes. T: You're getting this from my saying, "The problem isn't God"?
M:Yes. Do you think God just being God will cause them to suffer and die, that all He has to do is just show up and sinners will naturally start suffering and dying? I'll quote from DA 764: God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life....God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. Key points are: 1.When one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. 2.By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. M: When do you think God’s character gives life to the righteous? Do you think it is what resurrects them? Or, do you think it gives them life afterward? If so, how does it differ from the life they already have?
T: "He who has the Son, has life." This happens when one believes. Eternal life starts before the resurrection.
M: If they are already alive, why, then, is it necessary for God to resurrect them?
T: Are you doubting that eternal life begins now?
M:I do not think the dead are alive now. Do you? Let's go back a bit. I said, ""He who has the Son, has life." This happens when one believes. Eternal life starts before the resurrection." Are you disagreeing with this? M: Does the same thing apply to the death of the wicked? That is, since they’re dead, why is it necessary for God to resurrect them?
T: What? Since they're dead, why it is necessary for God to resurrect them?
M:I think both the righteous and the wicked are dead now. Do you? To quote Jesus, they are sleeping. M: Again, in what sense does the firelight of God’s glory give life to the righteous and take life from the wicked?
T: In the sense explained in DA 108.
M:“The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} Since you believe this is referring to the character of God, when do you think it imparted life to the righteous? To know God is eternal life. It does so when a person believes. And, when do you think it will slay the wicked? What does it do to kill them? How does it kill them? Read the text. The sentences before and after explain what's happening. I meant I’m trying to figure out what you think about it. I believe the radiant firelight of God’s person and presence will cause them to suffer and die. Why don't they die right away? If the "radiant firelight" of God's person and presence causes them to suffer and die, why is there physical fires around them causing them to suffer? Do these physical fires have nothing to do with their death? Since Jesus Christ took our punishment upon Him, why didn't God's "radiant firelight" cause His suffering and death? Why weren't their literal fires around Him? Does God's character have nothing to do with the suffering of the wicked? Is it only a physical thing, as opposed to spiritual? If not, what spiritual aspects are involved? I notice in your explanations you make no reference to the cross, yet no truth can be understood apart from the cross. Does it not concern you that your thinking on this question doesn't involve the cross? I hear you saying God will resurrect them in a state sufficient to naturally survive revisiting millions of sins, one at a time, without dying prematurely and without supernatural aid. Is that what you believe? I don't think I've said anything like this. Would you quote something please? (No, it's not something I believe). If so, why did Jesus require supernatural aid? I don't understand this question. Anyway, it's not something I believe, so the "if so" doesn't apply.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#121173
10/31/09 12:05 AM
10/31/09 12:05 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Tom,
I've heard you tell us more than once here that Jesus' suffering on the cross is the same kind of suffering as for the lost in their end. Do you really believe this?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#121175
10/31/09 01:39 AM
10/31/09 01:39 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Could you quote something I've said please, GC? I know I've quoted the following: Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. (DA 753)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#121176
10/31/09 05:06 AM
10/31/09 05:06 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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Tom, I'm always amused at how much you ask people to quote you. You might be able to tell me what you believe without seeing what you said before, mightn't you? Or does it help you remember what you believe?  Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#121177
10/31/09 05:11 AM
10/31/09 05:11 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Nevertheless, as you have amused me, I'll amuse you. Here's one such statement of yours. Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me." Christ suffered the penalty of the law. If the penalty of the law for sin were being burned alive, Christ would have been burned alive. We see in Christ's death what the punishment of the law really is. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#121178
10/31/09 05:41 AM
10/31/09 05:41 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me." Christ suffered the penalty of the law. If the penalty of the law for sin were being burned alive, Christ would have been burned alive. We see in Christ's death what the punishment of the law really is. If the penalty of the law consists of God leaving the sinner the suffer the natural consequences of his own character's dissonance with God's character, Jesus would have suffered nothing since His character was in harmony with God's character. "Let their punishment fall on Me" only makes sense if the punishment is imposed on One who has no business being punished, as opposed to merely experiencing natural consequences.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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