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Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? #121587
11/14/09 07:19 PM
11/14/09 07:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Is there anything happening in the world or in the church that makes you think Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? What makes you think Jesus could return within the next 10 years?

"You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years.--RH March 22, 1892. {LDE 33.2}

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121592
11/14/09 10:19 PM
11/14/09 10:19 PM
dedication  Offline
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Every year that goes by brings us closer to Jesus' arrival. The very fact that 169 years have passed since the three angels' messages began to sound, means we are that many years closer to the event.

As to events:
yes, it's incredible how things are lining up to the prophetic picture we were given.

1. The different Denominational Churches will seek to unify and in order to do this certain doctrinal differences will have to be waived: (EGW comments see GC 444)

Ecumenical News

2. The Protestants will reach out and clasp the hand of Roman Catholism.

"Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power," (GC 451)

Today people are asking "Is Protestantism Dead"?
We've all heard that March 29, 1994, leading evangelicals and Catholics signed a joint declaration, "Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the 3rd. Millennium."

Wanted: Euro Body of unity of all Churches, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant

3. Protestants will compromise doctrine to gain the favor of Roman Catholism. Rome doesn't change.

"EGW wrote:
There is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome."
BE.1887-02-01

Protestants are dialoguing with Rome. Rome has no intentions whatsoever to give up her doctrines, Rome even declared that the Pope must have primacy in the coming union, but Protestanism is riddled with the cry that doctrines should not separate, that doctrines are not what's important.

John Paul II in the Encyclical "Ut unum sint" addressed the importance of the primacy of the papacy and while they are dialoguing how to impliment this into ecumenicalism, they have no intention to back away from this primacy.

Primacy of Peter

4. Protestant churches will unite and influence the State to enforce their beliefs.

EGW. Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, page 277
When the churches of our land, uniting upon such points of faith as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and sustain their institutions, then will Protestant America have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy.

While they haven't managed to do this yet, the desire to do this is definitely working.

5. America shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and Republican government,
(See Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 451)

This could take up a whole thread of it's own. The Consititution is definitely being undermined!

The Patriot Act: How it undermines the Constitution


There's more!

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: dedication] #121596
11/14/09 11:54 PM
11/14/09 11:54 PM
dedication  Offline
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A Faltering Economy (economic crises) offers opportunity to pass laws that will enable a tyrannical control of the world.
Compare with Rev. 13 "no man buy or sell save he that has the mark of the beast"

Once these laws are in place they will ultimately be used to harass God's people. -- The worship of the beast.

The economic downslide at present is international -- the time is short.

Excellent sermon on this point:
The coming Economic Crises -- religious or political?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: dedication] #121615
11/15/09 04:33 PM
11/15/09 04:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Why do you think these developing issues mean Jesus' arrival is more likely to happen than before? Haven't they been developing since 1844? The stage was set for Jesus to arrive around 1888. What prevented it? And, is it still preventing it today?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121627
11/16/09 03:11 AM
11/16/09 03:11 AM
dedication  Offline
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The above issues have been developing for many years, yes, but now they are reaching a level that wasn't possible back then.

Now, I think I know the answer you are "fishing for", but I have some big questions on that.

Basically we've been told that had the church accepted and applied the "righteousness by faith" message and come together in unity of the faith giving "the loud cry", Christ would have come. Now since the church still hasn't accepted and applied the "righteousness by faith" message and come together in unity of the faith Christ's coming has been long delayed.

For the most part I've been a strong defender of the church, but lately I've become discouraged.

If the above is the criteria, I don't think Christ will ever come.

Is the church any closer now then in 1888? NO! It is now so riddled with every wind of doctrine many don't even know what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. The panthiestic leanings back then were extremely mild when compared to some of the "new age" sentiments coming in in our day. Ballenger's questioning on the sanctuary is now looked at as an "alternative" and even as a step in the right direction as so many have thrown the sanctuary doctrine out as irrelevant or even damaging to their version of "righteousness by faith".

What do we see in church? Do we see a real return to primitive godliness in worship? No! -- It's all really quite formal (or in some churches they try to liven it up with more charasmatic type stuff) But something is missing.

And now they are calling all the pastors in our province to workers meeting and what are they going to teach them there?

JESUIT principles of "spiritual exercises"!!!
This is supposed to be the road to "righteousness by faith"?

These spiritualistic exercises to heighten spiritual consiousness are supposed to be "righteousness by faith"?

I guess I see the events in my posts above as the real signs that Christ is coming soon.
The only way the church will be united in faith and unity is if a mighty shaking comes first.
That shaking will come in the form of persecution when the vast majority will give up being a Seventh-day Adventist. Those who cling to Christ and truth will be the small band of believers who have made Christ their all in all.

Last edited by dedication; 11/16/09 03:13 AM.
Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: dedication] #121659
11/19/09 05:17 AM
11/19/09 05:17 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Dedication, I share your concerns. However, seems to me what causes the shaking is the Straight Testimony. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people. {EW 270.2}

I saw that the testimony of the True Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony upon which the destiny of the church hangs has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance; all who truly receive it will obey it and be purified. {EW 270.3}

The people are asleep in their sins and need to be alarmed before they can shake off this lethargy. Their ministers have preached smooth things; but God's servants, who bear sacred, vital truths, should cry aloud and spare not, that the truth may tear off the garment of security and find its way to the heart. The straight testimony that should have been given to the people in ----- was shunned by the ministers; the seed of truth was sown among thorns and has been choked by them. With some, evil besetments have flourished, and the heavenly graces have died out. {1T 249.1}

According to the light that God has given me in vision, wickedness and deception are increasing among God's people who profess to keep His commandments. Spiritual discernment to see sin as it exists, and then to put it out of the camp, is decreasing among God's people; and spiritual blindness is fast coming upon them. The straight testimony must be revived, and it will separate those from Israel who have ever been at war with the means that God has ordained to keep corruptions out of the church. Wrongs must be called wrongs. Grievous sins must be called by their right name. All of God's people should come nearer to Him and wash their robes of character in the blood of the Lamb. Then will they see sin in the true light and will realize how offensive it is in the sight of God. {3T 324.1}

The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. {8T 297.5}

By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway. As we do this, the power of the Spirit will come to us. We need the Pentecostal energy. This will come, for the Lord has promised to send His Spirit as the all-conquering power. {8T 297.6}

What is "the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans" which will cause a shaking when resisted and rejected?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121665
11/19/09 07:30 PM
11/19/09 07:30 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Great thread! I didn't notice this before. Good questions, and very interesting points.

I really appreciated your last post, ded. I think you hit the nail on the head, and sympathize completely with

Quote:
For the most part I've been a strong defender of the church, but lately I've become discouraged.

If the above is the criteria, I don't think Christ will ever come.

Is the church any closer now then in 1888? NO! It is now so riddled with every wind of doctrine many don't even know what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. The panthiestic leanings back then were extremely mild when compared to some of the "new age" sentiments coming in in our day. Ballenger's questioning on the sanctuary is now looked at as an "alternative" and even as a step in the right direction as so many have thrown the sanctuary doctrine out as irrelevant or even damaging to their version of "righteousness by faith".

What do we see in church? Do we see a real return to primitive godliness in worship? No! -- It's all really quite formal (or in some churches they try to liven it up with more charasmatic type stuff) But something is missing.

And now they are calling all the pastors in our province to workers meeting and what are they going to teach them there?

JESUIT principles of "spiritual exercises"!!!
This is supposed to be the road to "righteousness by faith"?

These spiritualistic exercises to heighten spiritual consiousness are supposed to be "righteousness by faith"?


However, I disagree with your conclusion.

Quote:
I guess I see the events in my posts above as the real signs that Christ is coming soon.
The only way the church will be united in faith and unity is if a mighty shaking comes first.
That shaking will come in the form of persecution when the vast majority will give up being a Seventh-day Adventist. Those who cling to Christ and truth will be the small band of believers who have made Christ their all in all.


Actually, I agree with the shaking part, but what causes the shaking is the message of righteousness by faith! The reason Christ hasn't come is that the message which prepares for His coming has been consistently resisted and rejected. It's been replaced by the things you so eloquently mentioned above.

This message *cannot be bypassed*. Why? Because it's the *only way* that Christ's people can be prepared for His coming.

Quote:
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. (COL 69)


What brings this about is the righteousness by faith message, the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans, that MM referred to.

We were really, really close in the 1888 era to Christ's coming again. Even though things were so different then, still all the prophecies in "The Great Controversy" were on the verge of happening (and some were already in the process of happening). But the message wasn't responded to, and the whole process was cut short in unrighteousness, I suppose one could say.

Some day the message will be responded to, though, and Christ will come. I completely share your concern, however. Somehow things have to change. How this will happen, I think only God knows.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Tom] #121676
11/20/09 04:49 AM
11/20/09 04:49 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
So long as people believe Jesus saves sinners with their sins they cannot be in harmony with the will of God. Seems to me more and more people are buying into this theory. If this is the case, if this is the current condition of the church, then is there any reason to believe Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? Are we waiting for the world to get worse or for the church to get better? If the world does get worse, will Jesus return even if the church does not get better?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121678
11/20/09 04:56 AM
11/20/09 04:56 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
We are waiting for TWO things:

1) The Gospel preached in all the world; and
2) Christ's character to be perfectly reproduced in His people.

That's it. When these items can be checked off the list, He will come to claim His own.

Maranatha!

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Tom] #121679
11/20/09 05:02 AM
11/20/09 05:02 AM
dedication  Offline
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Quote:
manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people
I've sadly come to the conclusion that if we expect the church (that is the majority of the people in the denomination) to meet this goal before Jesus can come, He will never come.

Yes, I agree God's people need to earnestly study and humble themselves before God, as they contemplate the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.

But the shaking will shake out all who have not heeded that True Witness.
When "cultural Adventism" is no longer "comfortable" they will renounce -- decant the three angels' messages and follow the popular religious way.

And -- from what I can gather -- this will include 95% of current Adventists.

Quote:
"It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner.{ChS 41.1}

"Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. Instead of being strengthened and confirmed by opposition, threats, and abuse, they will cowardly take the side of the opposers.{5T 136.1}


"In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But, it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven, but do not see stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster. {ChS 49.2}

The time is not far distant, when the test will come to every soul. . . . In this time, the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy, will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 80,81. {ChS 49.3}

The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands and conformed to worldly customs will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness. {Mar 200.3}

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