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Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #122776
01/09/10 03:31 AM
01/09/10 03:31 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
a:You can find inspired commentary that illuminates Saul and David, where there is evidence that this principle is in play. But you apply the principle in places where there is no inspired commentary saying that you should. For example, the Bible/SOP are consistent that God destroys the wicked. Yet, you say that God does not destroy.

T:I don't understand how this topic migrated here. I'll make a few comment, but if you want to discuss this in more detail, please start a topic. This topic is regarding the suffering of the lost in the second resurrection.

a:I thought you were there one who brought up Saul and David.


No, I didn't. I see no need to discuss the topic of whether God kills or destroys in connection with the suffering of the lost.

Quote:
Anyway, the principle is question is this: Since we know that the Bible sometimes describes God's allowing something as God doing it, are we free to apply that anywhere we think it applies?


If it's a general principle, then yes, of course. For example, we are told that Satan is the author of sin and all its results. Well, death and disease are the results of sin. Therefore Satan is the author of these things. So to say that God causes these things is to say that God does things of which Satan is the author. I think this is an incorrect idea. God is not dependent upon that which Satan has created. This is, I believe, a principle. The kingdom of God is completely different than the kingdom of Satan. They operate upon different principles. That God does not use compelling power or force to achieve His purposes is not something which is sometimes true, but is a principle of His government. This is precisely how the SOP presents this idea: The Lord's principles are not of this order. Compelling power is to be found only under the government of the enemy.

Regarding the 3SM 217.2 quote, to say I left out the rest of it is leaving out the fact that I quoted it many times with the part that you quoted. Do I have to quote it that way every time? Does the principle, as stated, not apply? Or do you think it only applies in a qualified way? That is, the principle is:

Quote:
God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense.


Is it your contention that this means, "God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense, if we are considering circumstances altered by situations. In some other cases, it's OK not to reason from common sense."?

Quote:
a:That's another of your hermeneutical flaws: Unwarranted universal application of correct principles. I think I mentioned that.


"That's another of your hermeneutical flaws:" This isn't put very well, I don't think. It's too personal.

If we take the principle that force is not a principle of God's government, that His principles are not of this order, how could this not be universal? If God doesn't act in a certain way, because it is not according to His character to do so, how could this not be universal? For example, does God sometimes lie? Why not? Because it's contrary to His character. If it's contrary to His character not to lie, then applying this universally is warranted, is it not?

Quote:
What I mean is that you apply principles in places where they don't necessarily apply. You say you are using common sense to reject the idea that God created those quails. Is it really common sense to think that the quails were at sea, and the wind got them while flying around out there?


You really don't see the common sense involved here? If not, there's probably no point in discussing it. If you don't see it, you don't see it. I don't think common sense is something one can prove by argument.

We could, however, discuss the implications in believing that God specially created quail that, when eaten, resulted in disease and death.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #122777
01/09/10 04:06 AM
01/09/10 04:06 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think I may have messed up the response to your posts, Arnold, getting parts of one post mixed up with another. I'm pretty sure, at least, that I'm correctly responding to your points. (as opposed to mixing up your posts with someone else's). At any rate, I apologize for any confusion.

Originally Posted By: asygo
I assume you believe Satan will be destroyed in this manner - essentially, God doesn't destroy him, but merely allows "destruction to occur" from one or more of the thousand unseen dangers.


I don't believe that God has to arbitrarily destroy Satan, or that He does so, but rather God leaves Satan to reap the full results of sin. DA 764 says that had God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin at the beginning, Satan would have perished, but it would not have been understood that death is the inevitable result of sin. It seems clear to me this is saying God would have been misunderstood as killing Satan. So it hardly makes sense that at that end God actually does kill Satan, as opposed to leaving him to reap the full result of his sin, which inevitably results in death.

Quote:
I also assume you believe that had Satan failed to tempt anyone else to sin, and is the only sinner, his destruction would still be as certain, and happen also by God's removing His protection.


As I recall, the way the SOP puts it is that had God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished. So I believe God would have done that, once there were no more creatures in the valley of decision in regards to God's character.

Quote:
What this means is that the universe God created is inherently dangerous, and we can survive only by His protection from the dangers He created.


Absolutely not! *Satan* is the author of sin and all its results, including danger. The danger in the universe came as a result of sin.

Quote:
If, for whatever reason, God removes His protection, unseen dangers will destroy us, without any participation from God at all.


Assuming the existence of sin. Again, this is not the way God created things.

Quote:
It seems to me that creating poisonous quails are trivial in comparison to creating a poisonous universe from which we require constant protection.


Certainly the latter would be worse than the former, but neither would be trivial. Both would involve God's character in a negative way, which is not a trivial thing.

Quote:
Where in all the recorded history of Jesus on earth did He ever make something that was harmful unless he protected people from it?


Jesus never made anything harmful period. Harmful things come from sin. There is no danger in obedience.

Quote:
There are a number of problems with the idea that God is the One actively doing the destruction.

1.This is just what Satan does.
2.This is what Satan seeks to present God as doing, when it is actually he who is doing this.
3.To act so is contrary to God's character, as evidenced by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
4.Force and compelling power are not to be found in God's government, but only in the government of the enemy.
5.Destruction was invented by Satan. It is the fruit of sin. God would be implementing the tools of the enemy were He to do so.
6.It is completely unnecessary for God to take destruction into His own hands because He is protecting us from a thousand dangers, which are able to do the destruction themselves.

1. Satan wants us to worship him. Does that mean that God cannot do the same? Since Satan wants to be "like the Most High" it should not be surprising if he copies some things.


Regarding 1., I think equating the worship of God with destroying people is problematic. We're specifically told that Satan is the destroyer and God is the restorer.

Quote:
2. Like the bad things that happened to Korah and his friends? Satan was really the one who did it, even though Moses and EGW said God did it? You are falling into the same trap as the Ancient Israelites.


I never said Satan did anything to Korah and his friends. I don't understand you're repeated misrepresentations of things I've said. I find this very objectionable. I've repeatedly asked to be quoted for this very reason. And when I do so, that is objected to. This is very frustrating.

Feel free to disagree with ideas I present, but please be fair in your presentations of my ideas. Please don't just make stuff up, and credit these things to me, and then disagree with that. That's simply not fair.

Quote:
3. Are you sure you know God's character well enough to be able to reliably say what He will or will not do? Holy saints have been known to say "His ways are past finding out." Yet, you found out? To use the "did Jesus ever do that" line is another example of the unwarranted universal application problem. Jesus never slayed the wicked, but He will when the time comes. There are new things yet to be revealed.


What I said in 3 was, "to do so would be acting contrary to God's character as revealed by Jesus Christ." Do you disagree with this statement? If so, the thing to do to disprove it would be to present something regarding God's character as revealed by Jesus Christ which is contrary to what I asserted.

Quote:
4. I never saw your answer to a question I asked long ago: Was Satan forced out of heaven, or did he fly out of there willingly?


I answered this. I referred to Jude, which speaks of the unholy angels leaving their habitation.

Quote:
5. The earth will be destroyed by fire and made new. Satan is responsible for this destruction? I don't think so. It is more accurate to say that Satan was the first to make himself subject to destruction.


Yes, Satan is responsible for the destruction of the earth. The destruction of the earth became inevitable once sin entered in, and Satan is the author of sin and all its results. As the author, Satan is responsible.

I'm sure you're familiar with the second law of thermodynamics. Do you think God created the universe in this way, or is this the fruit of sin? If it's the fruit of sin, then Satan is the author of this law, which makes destruction inevitable.

Quote:
6. Was the fire which destroyed Korah's friends, the fire that came from the cloud, one of these thousand dangers? When God told Moses that anyone going up Sinai while He was there should be stoned or shot with arrows, were these unseen stones and arrows which were just going to start flying around on their own?


Arnold, your second question is obviously sarcastic. So I'll pass.

Quote:
While the principle you hold is sometimes applicable, it is not universally applicable.


That's an opinion you have, which has as its basis certain ideas you have regarding God's character. I have a different opinion, also based on my understanding of God's character, which is that the principle is of the same ilk as the principle "God cannot lie," for example. I assume you would agree that this principle is of universal application.

As support to my point of view, I adduce Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was a full and complete revelation of God. To do so was the whole purpose of His earthly mission. It seems clear to me that the principle that God does not destroy, that force is not a principle of His government, that He does not use compelling power, which is only to be found in the government of the enemy, was exemplified in the life and teachings of Christ. Also, if you consider the wording used ("only to be found in the government of the enemy," "the Lord's principles are not of this order") I don't understand the suggestion that it's wrong to apply these universally.

Quote:
Sin does not destroy itself. God destroys sin.


Sin is inherently destructive. This is because it is based on the principle of putting self first, which leads to separation from God, which leads to death.

Quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.(DA 764)


Those who choose the service of sin separate themselves from God, the fountain of life, thus cutting themselves off from life.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #122829
01/11/10 04:27 PM
01/11/10 04:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: This observation has been made before on this forum and Tom responded by suggesting the righteous attributes of God's character is what would have destroyed Ellen White.

T: I don't think I said this. It doesn't sound like me.

Interesting. What do you think would have caused her to "cease to exist"? Jesus warned her that beholding the form and glory of God would not end favorably.

Quote:
M: Although for some reason the same thing is not true of Jesus. That is, she was able to see His form and glory without being destroyed. Don't remember how Tom explains why.

T: What? Didn't you point out the angel said she would be destroyed if she saw God? Why are you now saying she saw God's "form and glory"? Why are you saying she did something Jesus didn't do? In saying the same thing is not true of Jesus, do you mean that Jesus would have been destroyed had He done the same thing EGW did? It sounds like this is what you're suggesting. Perhaps I've misunderstood you. If not, and you're really saying this, doesn't it strike you as rather odd to think such a thing?

Ellen White saw the form and glory of Jesus and it did not cause her to "cease to exist". Why not?

Quote:
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #122830
01/11/10 04:55 PM
01/11/10 04:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: God is a physical Being who also happens to glow. His radiance outshines the sun. I’m surprised you’re unwilling to concede this point.

T: God is a spiritual being. "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)" Before there was any matter, God existed. He can manifest Himself as He pleases, for His creatures, who are physical beings.

M: Do you believe God is eternally a physical Being? Or, do you think He is only a spiritual Being? If so, how do you explain the difference?

T: I pointed out several times that God existed before matter did. Do you understand "physical" to mean something other than being comprised of matter? If not, it should be obvious that God could hardly be comprised of matter if matter didn't exist.

Jesus told Ellen White that the Father has a form like His. Do you think the Father’s form is different than Jesus’? If so, in what way do you think it is different? Also, do you think Jesus’ form is different than ours? If so, in what way do you think it is different?

Quote:
M: I find it curious you can answer this type of question without volunteering to explain what you do believe. So, here it is – In what way do you think it was different than Raiders of the Lost Ark?

T: I've declined to talk about Nabad and Abihu many times, as we covered the subject in detail, so I don't see why you would find this to be surprising.

M: Are you unwilling to restate and clarify your position? If so, please post a link where you clearly explain it. Thank you. The details are fussy. I seem to recall you saying something like God simply permitted naturally occurring elements to discharge something akin to lightning and it killed them.

T: Regarding Nabad and Abihu, you can try the search utility.

I cannot find where you clearly explain it. Everything that comes up in a search simply has you saying you’ve already explained your position clearly. Do you know where it is? Apparently you are unwilling to simply restate it. Is there a reason why? Why do you think fire proceeded from the tabernacle and consumed them to death? What was the origin and source of the fire?

Quote:
M: Tom, yes, it is very cool that the SOP uses the words "poison" and "antidote" in relation to the sin problem.

T: Glad to hear that. Thinking of the sin problem in these terms I think helps very much to understand the atonement, the judgment, the Great Controversy, and what God is attempting to do.

M: Yes, it does.

T: It would be interesting to see this fleshed out.

M: I imagine it playing out in two different phases: 1) the first death, and 2) the second death.

T: It would be interesting to see this fleshed out.

1. First death. The antidote for sin is “Christ in you the hope of glory”. In Christ believers “do not” and “cannot” commit a known sin.
2. Second death. The antidote for sin is capital punishment.

Quote:
M: Like GC, I was surprised at your reaction to his question regarding the fire that destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. Are you saying you believe fire really, literally came down from God out of heaven?

T: This isn't what he said. He said, "I truly am surprised you think the fire in Sodom was real fire." Why would you think I wouldn't have thought that real fire was involved?

M: I mean real fire from God out of heaven. Is that what you believe? Or, do you believe the fire originated somewhere else?

T: GC said nothing about this. I've already said what I think about Sodom and Gomorrah.

M: Would you please repost a summary of what you believe? Who or what do you think ignited the fire? What do you think was the fuel source? Were they burned alive? Did they suffer intense pain? Etc.

T: Regarding S&G, I've said I thought it likely the destruction of the cities of the plain was due to volcanic activity.

Why and how do you think lava consumed them to death? And, why and how do you think Lot’s wife became a pillar of salt?

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Green Cochoa] #122831
01/11/10 05:32 PM
01/11/10 05:32 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Tom, the problem with your picture of God is that you have made a fast and hard rule which cannot be broken, in order for God's character to remain untarnished. You believe God never kills.

Tom, you can't dodge the facts forever. God has killed people. God will again do this.
I find the underlying thread of thought very disturbing. Maybe it's because it contrasts so much with my view of God.

The Law of God, His character, says not to kill. But, it's been said that God kills people for good reasons.

What if we were to kill people? What if it were for good reasons?
What if it were to punish heretics and infidels, to make them an example so that others won't be lost?

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: kland] #122838
01/11/10 09:03 PM
01/11/10 09:03 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
M: This observation has been made before on this forum and Tom responded by suggesting the righteous attributes of God's character is what would have destroyed Ellen White.

T: I don't think I said this. It doesn't sound like me.

M:Interesting. What do you think would have caused her to "cease to exist"? Jesus warned her that beholding the form and glory of God would not end favorably.


You're thinking of this?

Quote:
The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered him. I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself. He said he had, but I could not behold it, for said he, if you should once behold the glory of his person you would cease to exist.(A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White,page 43)


Well, we know the glory of God is His character. For example:

Quote:
The glory of God is His character. While Moses was in the mount, earnestly interceding with God, he prayed, "I beseech thee, show me thy glory." In answer God declared, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: "The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 33:18, 19; 34:6, 7).(God's Amazing Grace, page 322)


So I suppose it could be information overload.

Quote:
Ellen White saw the form and glory of Jesus and it did not cause her to "cease to exist". Why not?


She explained this in the quote, right?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #122839
01/11/10 09:17 PM
01/11/10 09:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Jesus told Ellen White that the Father has a form like His. Do you think the Father’s form is different than Jesus’? If so, in what way do you think it is different? Also, do you think Jesus’ form is different than ours? If so, in what way do you think it is different?


I don't know anything that's not in the quote. It seems to me it would be idle speculation for me to try to guess how the Father's form is different than Jesus'.

Quote:
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.(Deut.29:29)


Quote:
I cannot find where you clearly explain it. Everything that comes up in a search simply has you saying you’ve already explained your position clearly. Do you know where it is? Apparently you are unwilling to simply restate it. Is there a reason why? Why do you think fire proceeded from the tabernacle and consumed them to death? What was the origin and source of the fire?


Yes, there are reasons.

A reason is that, on several occasions, I have explained what I thought would be a fruitful approach to this topic, and on each occasion what I suggested was completely ignored. I spent countless hours going about it your way, but you didn't reciprocate at all to go about things as I suggested.

However, kland was not a part of these discussions, and he may wish to discuss the topic. You could start a thread, and see what happens. If kland chooses to participate, it's likely I'll say something as well.

Quote:
M: Tom, yes, it is very cool that the SOP uses the words "poison" and "antidote" in relation to the sin problem.

T: Glad to hear that. Thinking of the sin problem in these terms I think helps very much to understand the atonement, the judgment, the Great Controversy, and what God is attempting to do.

M: Yes, it does.

T: It would be interesting to see this fleshed out.

M: I imagine it playing out in two different phases: 1) the first death, and 2) the second death.

T: It would be interesting to see this fleshed out.

1. First death. The antidote for sin is “Christ in you the hope of glory”. In Christ believers “do not” and “cannot” commit a known sin.
2. Second death. The antidote for sin is capital punishment.


I guess you didn't understand "flesh out"(?). I meant explain it in some detail.

Quote:
Why and how do you think lava consumed them to death? And, why and how do you think Lot’s wife became a pillar of salt?


I don't understand your first question. Surely you know how lava works. I'm thinking I must be misunderstanding it.

Regarding Lot's wife becoming a pillar of salt, I've quoted the following several times:

Quote:
"This remarkable happening is stated matter-of-factly, with no suggestion that it was a special miracle or divine judgment. Lot’s wife "looked back" (the phrase might even be rendered "returned back" or "lagged back") seeking to cling to her luxurious life in Sodom (note Christ’s reference to this in Luke 17:32,33) and was destroyed in the "overthrow" (Genesis 19:25,29) of the city. There are many great deposits of rock salt in the region, probably formed by massive precipitation from thermal brines upwelling from the earth’s deep mantle during the great Flood. Possibly the overthrow buried her in a shower of these salt deposits blown skyward by the explosions. There is also the possibility that she was buried in a shower of volcanic ash, with her body gradually being converted into "salt" over the years following through the process of petrifaction, in a manner similar to that experienced by the inhabitants of Pompeii and Herculaneum in the famous eruption of Mount Vesuvius.
- Henry Morris (taken from: "The Defenders Study Bible")


I should amend my previous comment that I thought Sodom and Gomorrah was due to volcanic activity. One of the web sites I briefly looked at presented evidence that it was more likely to be due to earthquake activity than volcanic activity. I didn't look at it carefully, but at a glance it looked like the argument being presented was reasonable.

How exactly it happened, doesn't matter to me. That it wasn't God's acting directly/independently/arbitrarily is the important thing, and my basis for believing God did not act in such a fashion is based on an understanding of His character and the nature of the Great Controversy, sin, and Satan.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #122845
01/12/10 04:09 AM
01/12/10 04:09 AM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Sorry, but really short on time these days....

Originally Posted By: Tom
If we take the principle that force is not a principle of God's government, that His principles are not of this order, how could this not be universal?

OK, let me try to illustrate my point by agreeing with yours.

Let's say force is not part of God's government. Force is what causes a change in momentum (F=dp/dt); without it, everything will remain with the same momentum. IOW, nothing accelerates. Therefore, in God's perfect world, everything either moves in a straight line or does not move at all.

I assume you do not agree with this. If I'm right about that, please articulate why you do not agree.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #122846
01/12/10 04:23 AM
01/12/10 04:23 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
6. Was the fire which destroyed Korah's friends, the fire that came from the cloud, one of these thousand dangers? When God told Moses that anyone going up Sinai while He was there should be stoned or shot with arrows, were these unseen stones and arrows which were just going to start flying around on their own?

Arnold, your second question is obviously sarcastic. So I'll pass.

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, but illustrative. The proper answer, and I think you will agree (at least in your mind), is that God commanded the people to throw stones and shoot arrows; they were not going to start flying around by themselves. And I'm trying to illustrate to you that there are elements of your beliefs that you cannot bring yourself to articulate. You would rather pass and say nothing, leaving you free to shift your position as the need arises. I think GC has pointed this out once or twice.

Notice also that you passed on the first question, which I assume you did not see as sarcastic. Yet, you passed on that as well. Had you given a straight answer, we could have made some real progress in understanding each other. Unfortunately, you left it hanging.

So, how about it? Are you willing to say out loud (or write "out loud") that God commanded the people to shoot/stone the transgressors? Are you willing to say that God was the source of the fire that came from the cloud, rather than some nebulous, unseen danger that happened to target a specific set of people? I would like to see it.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: asygo] #122848
01/12/10 05:32 AM
01/12/10 05:32 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: asygo
Sorry, but really short on time these days....

Originally Posted By: Tom
If we take the principle that force is not a principle of God's government, that His principles are not of this order, how could this not be universal?

OK, let me try to illustrate my point by agreeing with yours.

Let's say force is not part of God's government. Force is what causes a change in momentum (F=dp/dt); without it, everything will remain with the same momentum. IOW, nothing accelerates. Therefore, in God's perfect world, everything either moves in a straight line or does not move at all.

I assume you do not agree with this. If I'm right about that, please articulate why you do not agree.


This is just a play on words.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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