By the way, sin can't be destroyed simply by destroying sinners.

That was proven by the worldwide flood.

The only way sin can be destroyed is by revealing to everyone sin for what sin is.

Only then can sin also be destroyed with those sinners who reject His gift of salvation.

Where there is free will there is sovereignty. I do not know that you believe that Mike. God's overuling of Balaam has not to do with Balaam's free will or his thoughts, but his actions and then only his actions in the capacity and function as prophet (spokesman for God) he could utter only what God gave him. Outside of that we see what counsel he gave Balak.

However Mike, where your point is, is that whether God 'interferes or not' he is active part of whatever it is, and that means sin also. You cannot be choosy in shifting the blame. Taking the simply physical might of God to come to this conclusion is totally misunderstanding the parameters and social structure that God established at creation.

These parameters and social structure which God purposed and set were such that gave the beings created in his own image a free will and personal individual thought of which they were and are sovereign. Therefore there is acountability and possibility of sin. Sin of which God is not part of.

Shalom

Daryl, fully agreed that sin cannot be destroyed simply by destroying sinners.

The only way sin can ever be overcome is by the revelation of God's love and character.
It is only then that anything can be seen about sin in its true light.

So the overcoming of sin has to deal with seeing God for what he really is, as opposed to our sinful view.

Shalom

Amen, Daryl, to both posts, and very well put (put in a way that anyone can agree with, regardless of which side of the destruction question one is on)

"The only way sin can ever be overcome is by the revelation of God's love and character.
It is only then that anything can be seen about sin in its true light."

Yes, because sin has to do with questioning God's character. Satan accused God of being arbitrary and selfish. If God were to respond in an arbitrary and selfish way, that could hardly defeat Satan's argument.

Instead God has responded in a way that anyone can review the evidence, and come to the conclusion that God does indeed run His government based on the principles of love and truth just as He claims, rather than based on force, as the enemy claims (and as the enemy runs his government).

Yes Tom, well put. Moreover there are wonderful things about God's love that has not entered into the mind of man, that God reveals to those that love him.

Daryl, your insights are only partly true. They fail to explain the story of Balaam. And, did you overlook the 8 souls on the ark, and the millions of evil angels, that God did not destroy in the flood?

The story of Balaam was already explained by somebody else here, however, further discussion on that may be beneficial. I will do some research on that.

No, I didn't overlook the 8 souls on the ark, and neither did I overlook the millions of evil angels.

The Lake of Fire will ultimately destroy those millions of evil angels and all sinners who have either neglected or rejected the Plan of Salvation. Sin can only be destroyed by destroying those sinners plus

Then only the redeemed sinners/saints and all of the other angels and those of the unfallen worlds will remain and will know the ugliness of sin to the extent that sin will never rise a second time. This is also how sin will be destroyed never to rise again.

Sin cannot be destroyed by destroying sinners. That was the point of this thread.

Sin came into existance in the very presence of God when there were no sinners in existence. This proves that simply not having sinners does not imply that sin will not arise.

God has promised that sin will not arise again? How does He accomplish this?

quote:

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It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe....

Could one sin have been found in Christ, had He in one particular yielded to Satan to escape the terrible torture, the enemy of God and man would have triumphed. Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 760, 761)

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It was by way of the cross that an eternal basis of security of the Universe was effected. The cross allows the destruction of sin in such a way that it will not arise again. This is because the cross makes clear all the principles involved in the Great Controversy.

Here's what would could have happened had God not used the cross to eliminate sin:

quote:

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By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

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Okay, Daryl, that sounds more like it. I knew, or at least suspected we were in agreement. It is too obvious that when God eliminates sinners in the lake of fire that sin is also gone.

Yeah, check out the story of Balaam and you'll see what I mean about God exerting His influence to prevent him from cursing Israel. Trhough it all He never violated his freedom of choice, and yet God got His way. The same is true of Cyrus. And the same is true of all the evil angels, who cannot go beyond the limits God places upon them.