Gordon, if Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, would it follow that he would say, "to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" reflecting that 100% human part and relating it to us?

Thank you for responding to my post. Do you think it is speculating to say Jesus isn't eternal in the same way the Father is eternal, that is, without beginning and without end? Or, do you think it is clear in the Bible and in the SOP that Jesus is not eternal in the same way the Father is eternal, that Jesus had a beginning, that there was a time back in eternity when Jesus did exist in the same way the Father existed?

The Spirit of God – 1

God gave this to His Son “without measure” – John 3:34

Old testament writers understood the meaning of ‘spirit’ and used it about 380 times (7307 - ruwach), establishing its definition and common usage. It was no mystery to them. It occurs just as often in the new testament (4151 - pneuma), a combined total of almost 770 examples for comparison & study.

This word Spirit (7307)is found from Genesis through Malachi (in all but seven OT books), and it’s here that the word is defined. We don’t use the new testament to define a word which has been used since creation.

The definition of ‘spirit’ lies with Moses and the prophets. The gospel writers of the NT were raised with this understanding.

As explained below, the spirit of a man reflects his inner person, his thinking, attitude, mind, and character; though tainted with sin.

For God, of course, His thoughts are holy, thus Holy Spirit.

[N.B. – ‘Spirit’ and ‘spirit’ are the same word ruwach (7307). Capitalization was imposed by the translators, but without consistency.]

Spirit - Hebrew (7307) – ruwach:

• Genesis 26:35 – “Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and unto Rebekah.” (margin ~ bitterness of spirit)
• Genesis 41:8 – “And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled” (Pharaoh)
• Genesis 41:38 – “Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?” (Joseph)
• Genesis 45:27 – “…and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived”
• Exodus 6:9 – “…but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit, and for cruel bondage.”
• Exodus 28:3 – “…speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom”
• Exodus 31:3- “And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship”
• Exodus 35:21 – “And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD’S offering”
• Numbers 5:30 – “Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife.”
• Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD…spake unto him [Moses], and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it to the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”
• Numbers 14:24 – “But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land”
• Numbers 27:18 – “And the LORD said unto Moses, take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit”
• Deuteronomy 2:30 - “…for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate”
• Joshua 2:11 – “our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man”
• Judges 8:3 – “Then their anger was abated toward him.”
• Proverbs 29:11 – “A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.”
• Daniel 7:15 – “I Daniel was grieved in my spirit (7308) in the midst of my body”

These few examples show the obvious similitude of mind and spirit.
_________

Hebrews
1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

According to the passage above, the "day" Jesus was "begotten" the angels were commanded to "worship" him, which means they already existed. But we know Jesus created the angels so obviously He existed before they did. Therefore, it stands to reason that the "day" Jesus was "begotten" was the day He became a human. In other words, He was not "begotten" on a "day" before He created the angels.

Interesting point MM in that He created all things as the following shows:


To be certain of what the Word is referring more specifically to, also read the following:

Right, Daryl, not only did Jesus create the angels, He also created the Universe. So the question remains unanswered - If the Father predates Jesus, if He existed eternally before Jesus was begotten, does it mean the Father spent an eternity all alone in a void, in a vacancy, in the absence of a Universe?

Thank you, Gordon: your study is good and I agree. I also agree with Elle, that the Holy Spirit is the omnipresence of Father and Son; I agree with most of what both of you say, too, but not the 3 manifestations in sequence or all at once, since the personalities are distinct.

Must the Son be eternal?? Not according to the vast majority of Bible teachers in 1919, opposing the minority led by F M Wilcox (the Review), Daniels and Prescott. It took another generation to change that majority view; Judson Washburn was one of several who held out till his death.

The Son's begotten Sonship is both in Jn 3:16 KJV and other texts and Ellen White consistently uses "begotten" and "only begotten" as the basis of Christ's eternal divine Sonship. She speaks of Father and Son as literally such, and I find that is a Biblical truth.

Eternity is not so fundamental to the truth of the Godhead, is it: Holiness is the most important attribute and then all other attributes, not so? Bible statements suggest a divine family, like "his Son" in O & NT.

The Holy Spirit is the Father and Son's individual omnipresence, without body but with personality. She writes both of "as much a person" as the Father, and of "not the same type of person" as Father and Son. We may not entangle ourselves with "person". Power and personality of God in omnipresence: simple.

The essence of our pioneers' non-trinitarianism - including Ellen White - is accepting Jn 3:16 KJV "only begotten" and not rejecting it for the NIV's wording, instead - both versions are usable, not mutually exclusive. That's my understanding of non-trinitarianism as we used to hold as a church and what I believe, too. I've kept my points brief here, too, of course.

Basically, MM & Daryl: "In the beginning was the Word," who is the begotten Son of God from eternity - too far back for us to calculate (as EGW states in comments on Jn 8:58), before becoming flesh and dwelling among us. God always was possessed of wisdom and his Word, without beginning; 'presenting' his son to the angels doesn't mean his Son was suddenly begotten just then...

Not speculating, MM, as, yes, the Bible and SOP are clear that despite Jesus being the literal, begotten, Son of God, he is equal with the Father without being said to be absolutely co-eternal with him yet eternal, too.

Here are links to two really detailed studies - something the GC Biblical Research Institute and ATS (www.atsjats.org) doesn't do or make space to do: would they be able to hold to trinitarianism if they did? It's not about 3 or 1 but about "only begotten" and defending it. Other issues there are too, like "one indivisible substance" (trinitarian dogma) and the personality of the Spirit, etc.

http://theprophetstillspeaks.co.uk/SBBS.htm

The homepage is emphatic but gentle - do read the comments below the 'gallery' of pioneers for the study bears it out, and the main menu has links to material from 8 years of part time study by...
An English lay Adventist in Bristol, England, after his acceptance of the trinity doctrine was challenged after 30 years as an Adventist.

The challenge was that Prof George Knight was 98% right: Ellen White couldn't be a member of the church today, either, along with all her contemporaries. Hence the debate today.

Yes..., after reading most of that website's quotes from our church publications and Bible studies, I'm content to believe God's Son was begotten of him in the "days of eternity" while being the Word of God "in the beginning"...

I give time to all the statements of our pioneers.